Slashdot Mirror


Of Encrypted Hard Drives and "Evil Maids"

Schneier has a blog piece about Joanna Rutkowska's "evil maid" attack, demonstrated earlier this month against TrueCrypt. "The same kind of attack should work against any whole-disk encryption, including PGP Disk and BitLocker. ... [A] likely scenario is that you leave your encrypted computer in your hotel room when you go out to dinner, and the maid sneaks in and installs the hacked bootloader. ... [P]eople who encrypt their hard drives, or partitions on their hard drives, have to realize that the encryption gives them less protection than they probably believe. It protects against someone confiscating or stealing their computer and then trying to get at the data. It does not protect against an attacker who has access to your computer over a period of time during which you use it, too."

376 comments

  1. surprise by jacquesm · · Score: 5, Informative

    physical access > digital security

    1. Re:surprise by EvanED · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually one of the points of full disk encryption is that it gives you a measure of protection even when physical security is compromised.

      Why on earth would do you do it otherwise?

    2. Re:surprise by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Expanding on the other reply - physical access with (sorry for the car analogy) the key in the ignition > all.

      Basically, they need physical access with the machine ON (and a way to bypass any locking mechanism that is in place)

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    3. Re:surprise by aetherworld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Slow news day?

      That article is actually like saying that there is no point to install a very expensive and secure door lock on your front door because it doesn't help you when you go get groceries and leave your door open. Duh. I'm sure most people realize that the point of disc encryption is not to protect your data while it's unencrypted in memory.

    4. Re:surprise by Sancho · · Score: 1

      If they can compromise the bootloader or BIOS, then they can do it with the machine off. But I believe that Rutkowska realized the implications after moving from Windows to OS X. OS X does not offer full disk encryption--rather, it encrypts your home directory. Thus it's likely still possible to compromise in this manner.

      And of course, she focuses on Truecrypt, which also doesn't do whole disk encryption. However it's a popular geek tool for encryption, and as such it's pretty relevant.

    5. Re:surprise by prgammans · · Score: 1

      Is that like a tech version of Rock-paper-scissors

      physical access > digital security
      digital security > Cowboy Neil
      Cowboy Neil > physical access

    6. Re:surprise by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      So, if I'm paranoid enough to use whole disk encryption, why am I not paranoid enough to log out of my session when I'm away or have a screen saver password?

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    7. Re:surprise by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      For the thrill of possibly losing all your data if you ever forget your password?

    8. Re:surprise by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't be. Encryption has to keep secrets secret. What is proposed in the article is technically feasible, I don't see in the name of what we should abandon it

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    9. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Version 6.0+ of Truecrypt does do full disk encryption. In fact, the original attack was against Truecrypts full disk encryption mode.

    10. Re:surprise by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Except that physical access always trumps encryption. You need to go beyond simple encryption when your attacker might be a coworker (or a maid or janitor) -- you need a security policy that mitigates the attacks.

      As an example, instead of whole disk encryption, suppose you just want to read some PGP encrypted emails on your coworker's computer, which you are allowed to SSH into (as is the case where I am now). One strategy you might try is to SSH in and use the microphone to listen to your coworker's keystrokes while he is reading his email (perhaps you can predict when he will be doing this -- e.g. if you send him a message marked "URGENT" and you spy on his network connection, so you know roughly when he received it). The time between keystrokes is related to which keys are being typed in -- not an exact measure, but enough to reduce the search space if you are trying to guess a passphrase. Thus, policies must be in place -- perhaps that no microphones may be installed on systems dealing with high security information.

      Encryption is great if your attacker cannot get physical access to your machine (or something equivalent like logging in remotely), which is a common scenario. However, if you are dealing with uncommon data and your attackers are determined to see it, relying on encryption alone is simply not sufficient -- even if the keys are stored on a smartcard (you could be mugged) or if the keys are based on biometrics (your corpse is still sufficient).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    11. Re:surprise by Abreu · · Score: 2, Funny

      You forgot Lizard-Spock

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    12. Re:surprise by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It gives you a measure of protection if your device is stolen. It does nothing for you if you are worried about an attacker who has access to the system without having to steal it.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    13. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA This attack is done by booting into a different OS and replacing the boot loader. Logging out won't protect you. I think that way to defeat this type of attack is to enable the hard drive password lock in the BIOS. Without this password, the BIOS would keep the drive from being accessed. Of course, one might be able to put the drive in a different computer and access it, so you really should have a drive with built in AES encryption where it forces you to enter a password no matter what.

    14. Re:surprise by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that FDE only worked on Windows, so I guess I wasn't aware that they'd added it.

    15. Re:surprise by Golddess · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except it's not quite like that. It sounds more like you lock your door and leave to get groceries. Before you get back, someone comes up to the door and installs something that can scan the key that is used to unlock the door. That person leaves, you return, unlock the door, and go in. You later head out again, locking the door behind you, and that other person comes up, recovers their device, makes a duplicate key based on the device's contents, and now has access to your home.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    16. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Well, they only added FDE on the boot partition for Windows. OS X and Linux FDE is only supported in the sense you can encrypt a full partition on a separate drive. So if you want a FDE on the boot drive for those OS's, you'd need to look into something else (AES-Loop for Linux, and I don't know what for OS X).

      Actually, now that I think about it, a way that you could get around this attack would be to make the hard drive non bootable, and always boot from a trusted medium and keep that medium on your person at all times. For Windows (or Linux) that could be a thumb drive; for OS X, you could boot off your iPod.

    17. Re:surprise by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

      Yeah, some other people have posted suggesting the USB method. That's probably fine, but I've had USB drives fail, so it's a scary prospect. I'd rather use the USB key to boot the OS and verify the important hard drive sectors are unchanged the first time I boot up after the computer has been out of my sight.

      Of course, there's still the hardware keylogger problem to worry about. My laptop doesn't have chassis intrusion detection.

    18. Re:surprise by slaad · · Score: 1

      From TFA -

      Step 1: Attacker gains access to your shut-down computer and boots it from a separate volume. The attacker writes a hacked bootloader onto your system, then shuts it down.

      The machine is already off. It's more like while you're away from home, even though your door is closed and secured using your very expensive lock, someone installs a camera that isn't easily detected and as the next time you unlock your door it takes a picture of the key that someone else can then use to unlock the door later.

      --


      ~Warning!~ The above is encrypted using rot676!
    19. Re:surprise by aetherworld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True. I didn't really see it that way. Thanks for pointing it out.

      Still, it's kind of obvious that once someone gains physical access to your device, they can do anything with it. You could swap the keyboard with one that records all keystrokes or simply install a physical key logger device or do whatever you want with it.

    20. Re:surprise by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Correct. If the evil maid is moderately attractive, she only needs gain access to your body to extract all of your secrets anyway. She's not going to mess around with bootloaders and such silly stuff. If she can't stroke the information out of you, she'll call her two inbred cousins to bludgeon the information out of you with a $5 wrench.

      Oh-kay, obligatory xkcd reference has been posted. ;^)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    21. Re:surprise by Golddess · · Score: 1

      You beat me to it, but not to the explanation!

      Physical Access
      Digital Security
      CowboyNeil
      CommanderTaco
      Being /.ed

      Physical Access trumps Digital Security and negates Being /.ed.
      Digital Security confuses CowboyNeil and CommanderTaco.
      CowboyNeil strips out components when presented with Physical Access, and gives migraines to CommanderTaco.
      CommanderTaco also strips out components when presented with Physical Access, and can disable Being /.ed
      Being /.ed disables access to Digital Security and makes CowboyNeil feel insignificant when presented with the power of CommanderTaco.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    22. Re:surprise by malakai · · Score: 5, Informative

      My god the mod's today suck. All of these "Then don't leave yourself logged in" responses are getting +mod.

      This attack has NOTHING to do with you leaving your session authenticated and open. It's about a boot-loader level phish scheme.

      Basically, you come back to your laptop which you left off, you boot it up not noticing anything out of place, and you log in an unlock your drives. Meanwhile, little did you know that the intruder put a very small OS on to your laptop which runs your primary OS as a virtual OS. It's got low level hooks to all the basic INT's and can read any memory without chance of any program within your primary OS (now virtualized) detecting it.

      Then you log off and go out to dinner. The maid comes in, boots up, hits a key-sequence, and dumps a log to a USB drive. In that log somewhere is your password to your encrypted drives. Game over dude... game fucking over.

    23. Re:surprise by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Funny

      No no no, the suprise is that -hotel maids- are teh 1337 haxorz.

      I guess it couldn't be TOO bad, whenever I forget to put the "do not disturb" sign on my hotel room when I leave, the maids usually don't steal my stuff, they just neatly organize it. If they sneak into my computer, they'd probably defrag the hard drive and that's about it.

    24. Re:surprise by witherstaff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Feds did this to bypass PGP on a mobster's computer almost a decade ago. Well not exactly a bootloader, they put in a keylogger. Gee, if a Gman thought of this back in double ought, why is this making news for nerds today?

    25. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, cause I'm worried about my maid supplanting my bootloader with a mini virtualization engine that runs my primary os and sniffs decryption keys in realtime, storing them for later pickup.

      This sounds like a likely scenario. She'll probably do this right after she finally figures out how to work the new vacuum.

    26. Re:surprise by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1
      All the posts talking about this like it was obvious.... either slashdot is where the people with highest IQ on earth like to read or halve of you didn't understand the attack.

      On the other side the good thing is that this attack is so difficult that I don't think there are going to be many maids technically able to carry it out.

    27. Re:surprise by GravityStar · · Score: 1

      TPM is supposed to be able to defend against this exact scenario.

      I believe I read that Vista's Full Disk Encryption does exactly this. Not sure though.

    28. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The physical security provided by encryption only goes so far, if your encrypted hard drive is lost or stolen is not the same as someone gaining physical access and compromising the system, which you then continue to use. You end up granting them access to your information.
      However the scenario described should be easily kept at bay with a BIOS boot password as well as the encrypted hard drive, while it may be possible to disable this with enough time, when you return to the system and notice it gone you'll know something was up.

    29. Re:surprise by Garridan · · Score: 1

      The point is, if said "maid" is

      • A local government agent and you're a criminal
      • A criminal and you're a local government agent
      • A foreign government agent and you're a fed
      • A private investigator and you're the target
      • A corporate spy / saboteur working for your employer's competitor,

      then you should be worried about your maid supplanting your bootloader. Remember, this isn't the maid in your house, this is the maid in a hotel.

      Another one: if you check your laptop at an airport, there's plenty of time for these sorts of shenanigans. If you fly frequently, the fed could quite easily snoop your password after two flights. So, if TSA reads xkcd, it's game over for anybody who wants to fly with physical security for their laptop.

    30. Re:surprise by talcite · · Score: 1

      A secure system should also have a BIOS password and a locked down boot sequence that doesn't let you insert arbitrary CDs/USB keys. It's a lot more difficult to reset the BIOS on a laptop.

    31. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think most of slashdot knows about booting from a USB stick and (probably most) modifying the MBR. I don't know if all /. readers could do it right this second but it isn't conceptually tough to understand and it has been around a very very long time. This is hardly a "new" risk that one would consider "news". I think parent may be a bit too rough on kdawson because it doesn't hurt to remind people that physical access, particularly if it is done over time, is a huge security hole.

    32. Re:surprise by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There are two different scenarios here:

      1) Your computer is stolen. Encryption protects your data in this case.

      2) Your computer is broken into/tampered with. Encryption only helps if you detect the intrusion before entering your passphrase.

      You do encryption for 1) and for 2) with an incompetent attacker. It does not help against 2) with a competent attacker and that is no surprise and well-known to IT security experts.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    33. Re:surprise by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I use my boot loader as part of my key material. Change it and I'll know. (and be pretty pissed)

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    34. Re:surprise by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Memory loss due to cell phone usage?

    35. Re:surprise by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Mark the bottoms of each screw with location-specific colors. Every time you come back to your laptop, remove all the screws and check to see if the colors match.

      Not 100%, obviously, but if the marking is small enough the intruder is unlikely to distinguish between the otherwise identical screws/put them all back where they were originally.

    36. Re:surprise by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      Well, yes, but in that case we are talking about the device being lost, stolen, or confiscated. Simply changing the bootloader on said device does not give access to the encrypted volume.

      GP is correct, there should be no supposition that encrypted drives are inherently safe from physical attacks that take place while you are merely away from the system for a while.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    37. Re:surprise by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      For a very real example with ATMs: Lebanese Loop.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    38. Re:surprise by TimothyDavis · · Score: 1

      With the bitlocker setup I have on my machine, changes to the boot options will trigger a request for the full encryption key (and not just the PIN). How is the attacker modifying the bootloader, which is verified before the PIN is even requested?

      I can understand that this attack would likely still work if the user blindly entered the 48 character recovery key after the altered boot loader was put in place - but for any security aware user, the prompt for this key (including the written warning of why the key is being requested) would alert them to the tampering.

    39. Re:surprise by maxume · · Score: 1

      Do you really have such valuable personal data? I encrypt a bunch of stuff, but I'm not worried about a committed attacker, I want to mitigate the consequences of casual theft (I am presuming that such valuable business data would not face the budget constraint implied by 'laptop doesn't have chassis intrusion detection').

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    40. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      + That little tray that sticks out of the computer is not a cup holder.

    41. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hard drive manufacturers have secret ways to get past the simple hard drive lock.

    42. Re:surprise by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Interesting idea.

      I wonder if there would be a market for screws which destroy themselves upon removal.

    43. Re:surprise by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      This is not news it's an obvious hack which has been known since last century.

      If you want to make a computer that cannot be surreptitiously compromised in this way you're going to have to do a whole hell of a lot of engineering and testing. The same ones you'd use to make a -not so smart- card.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    44. Re:surprise by Sancho · · Score: 1

      No, I don't have particularly valuable data. But it's interesting to think about these things, and to implement them. I actually don't even encrypt my notebook's drive, because the added decryption reduces battery life and slows things down noticeably (though not substantially.)

    45. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes... But for this to happens, your BIOS needs to be unprotected and/or allows for external device booting for the boot loader to be installed in the first place. That's like begging for trouble with a portable device.

    46. Re:surprise by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Only among people even more paranoid than me.

      So Birthers, Truthers, Moon-Landing hoaxers, MK-ULTRA obsessors--actually, it's looking like a sizeable niche.

    47. Re:surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't they have to be logged in, in order to install it? and still further, wouldn't it have to be someone that has access to the boot sectors or can priv up to it?

  2. Bucket List by allknowingfrog · · Score: 1, Informative

    Someday I want to invent an attack, but only because I want the privilege of naming it.

    1. Re:Bucket List by mccalli · · Score: 4, Funny

      Someday I want to invent an attack, but only because I want the privilege of naming it.

      And some day I'd like to be hit by the attack you invent, because saying that I've been hit by an "all-knowing frog" attack would simply be cool.

      Cheers,
      Ian

    2. Re:Bucket List by Gulthek · · Score: 5, Funny

      The hypnotoad security tool protects against the all-knowing frog attack, but comes with its own drawbac--ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOOL.

    3. Re:Bucket List by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Funny

      saying that I've been hit by an "all-knowing frog" attack would simply be cool.

      That's rather a rude way to describe being beaten by the French.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:Bucket List by Bodhammer · · Score: 1

      "Fetchez La Vache"

      --
      "I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
    5. Re:Bucket List by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Hail the Hypno-Toad Attack!

    6. Re:Bucket List by maxume · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it is never nice to make light of child abuse.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  3. At the next defcon... by purpledinoz · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm imagining a bunch of geeks dressed up in maid outfits.

    1. Re:At the next defcon... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      I've met several female geeks I wouldn't mind seeing in a certain type of maid outfit.

    2. Re:At the next defcon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damn you... I have an over active imagination, that made me throw up in my mouth. Just for that look at this horrifying thing.

    3. Re:At the next defcon... by mewsenews · · Score: 1

      I'm imagining the tips being much worse than usual

    4. Re:At the next defcon... by Icegryphon · · Score: 1

      That is like a Japanese Fetish.
      Otaku even have Maid cafés
      I am sure they wouldn't mind a few a feminine male geeks too.
      Gotta watch out for those Traps (NSFW prolly)

    5. Re:At the next defcon... by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2, Informative

      Worse than that. It says the outfit is sold out. I am NOT going outside or answering the door this Halloween.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    6. Re:At the next defcon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Holy crap slashdot, you scare me! That was not sold out when I posted it.

    7. Re:At the next defcon... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Joanna Rutkowska in a very tiny French Maid outfit? Ohhh yes.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    8. Re:At the next defcon... by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      You left out tentacles. Got to have tentacles. A maid working for an octopus is what I would have expected.

    9. Re:At the next defcon... by Gnaget · · Score: 0

      God, I hope rule 34 can be broken

    10. Re:At the next defcon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.rutkowska.yoyo.pl/

    11. Re:At the next defcon... by laejoh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just like my dear papaaaa!

    12. Re:At the next defcon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up as insightful! :-)

    13. Re:At the next defcon... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm dead link there,,,,

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  4. Fine line between security and paranoia by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seriously, if you're worried about some hacker assassin breaking into your house or office and installing a bootloader, you're either doing something REALLY secretive (in which case the computer probably shouldn't even be on a network to upload any data back in the first place) or you're the kind of person who thinks Obama has your name on an "important persons" list and is coming for your guns. If someone has physical access to your machine and has the skills to install a bootloader, you're pretty much boned anyway, encryption or not (encryption isn't going to stop a simple keylogger). That's nothing new. Fortunately, for the vast vast majority of us, there are very few hacker black operatives who are running around breaking into hotel rooms just so they can get a single Visa number from Bob the dipshit middle manager. Newsflash Bob, YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT!

    Oh, and I love how the article calls the prospect of a ninja hacker hotel maid sneaking a bootloader onto your laptop and then sneaking back into your room later to retrieve the data a "likely scenario." What hotels is this guy staying at anyway?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Umuri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Offhand, i'd say any prominent high-class hotel that might be used by foreign businessmen on a trip.

      I mean, you do have a point, bob the middle manager isn't that important. However there are quite a few business people who this really would be that important to. Corporate espionage is high, and you know china has been doing focused attacks over the network.

      Sneakernet is always faster, so if they can train up a few pretty women, pay them a decent programmers wage to have them steal stuff that is the work of 10 engineers or even hundreds, that's a pretty sound economic payoff don't you think?

      I think stuff like this has it's purpose, and those who really are at risk need to be educated about it. For the other 95% of us, i think it's useful info to be aware about, just like don't leave your purse out visible in your car. Sure it probably won't happen, but there are always people who would.

      --
      You never realize how much manually made unmanaged "linked" lists suck, till you have src.link.link.link.link...
    2. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You vastly underestimate the number of people traveling internationally and engaged in activities that the host governments find to be of interest.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    3. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bob the middle manager isn't that important, but Bob routinely sends email to Dave the director and Charles the CxO. By trojaning Bob's computer you can start to build a pretty decent profile of the corporate activities going on within, and above, Bob's department ... including travel schedules of some other bigger fish in the corporate pond.

      Do this to 3 or 4 Bobs, and pretty soon you'll have an understanding of the corporate org chart, upcoming projects, and most importantly you'll be able to target your future EvilMaid attacks with pinpoint accuracy.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    4. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That and if your data is that important then you have your screensaver to be password protected. OS X does it, Windows Does it, Linux Does it, Unix does it....

      I don't know about you but if I leave my laptop in my hotel room. I tend to lock it up in the safe. (normally I power it off, etc...) It seems to me this will only work for a very ideal set of conditions. And just posted to make people not secure their laptop.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Very few of those do so _automatically_. For almost all such systems, you have to manually select password protected screen locking. Also "screen locking" for X servers does not prevent console access on the other virtual terminals, if you've left an active login on them, or simply killing the X session and grabbing the login shell of the user created their shell session manually.

      Even more fun is available when careless laptop users run VPN sessions with such clients left unlocked, so anyone visiting their home or stealing their laptop can access the core of a poorly secured internal network where "we trust the people we work with" and they've refused to engage in effective internal security. The combination of NFS access and Subversion storing unencrypted passwords is a particularly egregious problem, as is the use of the 'keychain' SSH tool and its storgage of information about good targets to grab unlocked key access from in the settings recorded in $HOME/.keychain/.

      Traveling data security, coupled with remote network access, is a very real problem only aggravated by people ignoring the risks.

    6. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Oh, and I love how the article calls the prospect of a ninja hacker hotel maid sneaking a bootloader onto your laptop and then sneaking back into your room later to retrieve the data a "likely scenario." What hotels is this guy staying at anyway?

      French hotels. Never seen "Nikita", have you?

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    7. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Follier · · Score: 1

      Sneakernet is always faster, so if they can train up a few pretty women, pay them a decent programmers wage to have them steal stuff that is the work of 10 engineers or even hundreds, that's a pretty sound economic payoff don't you think?

      No, no no... that whole thing is a total myth.

      Maids are not pretty.

    8. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by swb · · Score: 0, Troll

      You know they've run extortion against business guys, politicians and bureaucrats for years using all manner of hired female talent.

      The gimmick is Bob the Middle Manager & Happily Married Guy on video cornholing some girl, or even better, a boy. This is used as leverage to control Bob so he can be a mole, giving you valuable info, inside access, etc.

      This beats trojaning his computer as you now have a live operator inside the organization who will do anything to keep his wife/boss/kids from finding out his a cheat or a homo.

    9. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      That's true, but what if it's Jimmy the WhiteHat attending DefCon with a very nice implementation of a much better hack? A vulnerability in a Blackberry device, for instance, which forwards email silently to another address? A list of hacks for Macbooks to win the cash prizes?

      $10k to another blackhat in prize money is one thing, $Xm from the card details gathered using a zero-day exploit is probably big enough motivation to get a sister or cousing a job in a Vegas hotel for a month prior...

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    10. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      Maids are not pretty.

      I have definitely seen evidence to refute that assertion.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    11. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      High class hotel in Paris perhaps. There have been numerous occasions when Americans bidding on multi-million dollar/euro contracts in France have been underbid by pocket change. The French secret service is notorious about helping French companies compete!

    12. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by mea37 · · Score: 1

      Those defenses sound good, until you think about them in a world where this attack might be in play. GP's assertion notwithstanding, there are people who really should be this paranoid in their understanding of the limits of security; to those people, what good is the hotel room safe? You're in a position where you have to worry about an evil maid, but you assume the hotel has really provided you with a box that only you will be able to open? Come on.

      As for screensaver locks... at best that's going to force the attacker to start by rebooting your system - which is the first step in this attack anyway. So maybe you'll know your machine has been tampered with... unless, being unaware of evil maid attacks, you just assume Windows threw a fit and rebooted itself.

    13. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      For almost all such systems, you have to manually select password protected screen locking ... Even more fun is available when careless laptop users run VPN sessions with such clients left unlocked

      Our corporate laptop Windows images have timed pw-protected screen locking enabled by default, and it can't be disabled (well, with sufficient determination I suppose it could). Furthermore, the VPN tunnel is automatically disconnected when the screensaver kicks in.

      It's actually a bit of a pain in the ass, but I can understand why it's configured this way.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    14. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to remember corporations have no souls. They don't act like you and I. If installing bootloaders and keyloggers is worth doing, it's worth doing regardless of whether it is seen as bizarre or paranoia. It is simply corporate feudalism in action. Realise those empires that fell were talked into failure by far more cutthroat and evil scammers. We live now in the midst of an insane feudalistic war of corporate opression whose ideal is to enslave all of humanity for their own good.

      The children of Earth deserve better. It is up to us, the thinkers and those still left with imaginations and fantasies to bring all of humanity forward to a better understanding and ultimate love.

    15. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't believe I have to type this, but...it's security research. Maybe it's not something the average person looks out for but it's interesting from an academic perspective, and it needs to be done. If someone's selling you a supposedly bulletproof system, you should be aware of the cases where it will fail, even if they're unlikely. Otherwise why are you in this industry?

    16. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to cite a source? I just looked up the past month of records on Congressional votes and came up with nothing of the sort. I also have the past weeks votes emailed to me every week from congress. I don't recall any such vote in the past 5 months that I have been subscribed.
       
      Hows the Obama Flavor Kool Aid?

    17. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd be surprised. My work has an entire dept. that handles machines that are spec'd just for travel. When you get back from travel, they check over your machine and burn you a cd of any required data. The machine never goes on regular network and you don't use your regular email account on the machine; you get new account each time you check out a travel machine. Besides whole disk encryption, the data being carried on the system is also encrypted with 2 factor login and judged safe for leaving the confines of the regular network. Pretty much means it's just approved sales presentations with no real details of anything.

    18. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by S77IM · · Score: 1
      --
      Student: Is it true that the foundation of the universe is paradox?
      Master: Well, yes and no.
    19. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much. As always:
      http://xkcd.com/538/

    20. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by GigaHurtsMyRobot · · Score: 1

      Rape is already illegal, so what would be the point of a ban on gang rape? Is this just another example of the 'important' issues the democrat congress is focused on when they have total control?

    21. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by HangingChad · · Score: 1

      What hotels is this guy staying at anyway?

      If you're a Boeing exec staying at a French hotel, at least the French used to have a reputation for state sponsored industrial spying. Or if you work for Lockheed and are visiting Israel. Industrial spying can be a problem anywhere these days. You may not think your data is that important, but competitors might it interesting.

      I'm wondering why, if what's on your computer is that important, you wouldn't keep your laptop with you?

      If you're on vacation one would hope you left the super-sekret encrypted stash at home. If you're on business, you'd want to assume spying was a possibility and guard your laptop.

      If I'm carrying a laptop overseas, it's probably going to be for email, pictures and video. Once I get home and off-load the data, I'm going to fdisk and rebuild anyway.

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    22. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by pizzap · · Score: 1

      Oh and Bob has the customers database right there on his laptop as an excel spreadsheet.

    23. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      And access to the corporate Wiki, with internal VPN security procedures, phone numbers, email addresses, and the org chart.

    24. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by mlts · · Score: 1

      Be careful on saying an attack may not be used widely. Virtually these exact words were said in the late 1990s about ssh and only paranoids having to worry about packet sniffers and session hijackers.

      Now, ISPs have appliances whose job it is to insert ads in unencrypted HTTP transfers and transparent Web proxies are fairly easy to set up by anyone knowledgeable. Any business class router supports packet logging, so anywhere between your machine and the host you are connecting to can record every single packet from the SYN to the final ACK.

      As of now, the "evil maid" attack may seem farfetched, but in reality, there are many ways to separate an exec from his or her laptop without them getting alarmed. One of those can be done at any border checkpoint where the laptop is taken to be "further inspected" while the exec is being strip searched. All it would take would be a simple bootup from a USB flash drive that scans for popular encryption program headers (TrueCrypt, PGP, PointSec) and some code inserted to save the preboot authentication passphrase somewhere safe for later. This wouldn't take much technological knowledge on the end user side, because all they do is jam the flash drive into a port, tell the laptop to boot from the drive, and then turn the laptop back off. Should the laptop have locked or no USB ports, the drive itself can be removed from the laptop and put into a machine that would do similar functionality (detect encryption, modify the bootloader).

      After this is done and the person stays in the country a bit, the laptop can be quietly imaged by outgoing customs or airport security, or just outright seized by security.

    25. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Well, there is always the issue of business secrets -- it would be pretty easy for a rival company to pay off a maid to follow a few simple steps to install a bootloader on your laptop, without the maid even knowing exactly what she is doing. It would also be pretty basic for that company to arrange for your laptop to be stolen once you leave the hotel -- and presumably, you would have had to enter your passphrase during that period of time.

      The point is that whole disk encryption is not sufficient to protect machines against a concerted attack -- but we knew that anyway. Your attackers could also have placed a microphone in the room to listen to your keystrokes as you enter the passphrase, or a video camera to watch your keystrokes, or any number of other vectors. If your data is important enough for someone to put in the effort needed to execute one of these attacks, you should not be accessing it in an environment you cannot control.

      Ask yourself this: how many people (or criminal organizations) out there would benefit from having complete access to the Windows source code? Or even "just enough" access to disable all of the copy restrictions? Now, if you were a Microsoft employee, would you carry that source code around on your laptop? Would you even log in remotely to work on it?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    26. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by pentalive · · Score: 1

      If the evil maid actually works for the hotel, she may have access to many laptops on many days. The information in any one may be somewhat uninteresting, but if the work required is just booting it with a magic thumb drive, why not do every laptop she comes across. Perhaps twice then the take could be much greater.

    27. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by eth1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think it would be too far fetched to imagine organized crime ID theft rings trying to get people hired on as cleaning staff at high-end hotels to do this sort of thing.

    28. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Do this to 3 or 4 Bobs, and pretty soon you'll have an understanding of the corporate org chart, upcoming projects, and most importantly you'll be able to target your future EvilMaid attacks with pinpoint accuracy.

      I smell the plot for a new anime...

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    29. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by xtracto · · Score: 1

      This attack can be achieved in an easier way.

      In case that you keep your home computer disks encrypted and whatnot. The FBI/CIA/KGB/AFI* can sneak to your home and silently install a keylogger between your keyboard and your computer...

      Guess what is the first thing the logger will save?

      *Of course, the AFI method of getting information will most likely grab you and abuse you until you throw the information they look for.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    30. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      At one place I worked, we had a special line set up for our rep to use that would go through the Embassy and State Department phone lines to get to us for e-mail. The guy was in France and found it a little disconcerting to have the French reps asking him questions about e-mails and phone conversations he'd sent the previous day which is why we got that special line set up.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    31. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not unlike the US government using Echelon to provide Boeing with several Airbus relevant documents.

      Look it up. The European comission was basically told to fuck off when they started asking some embarassing questions.

    32. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked a case of industrial esponage where we figured out that the data was stolen by a guy, posing as a hotel porter, who imaged the hard disk of a laptop while bringing the luggage to the room. The realy rich guys don't always cary their own laptop bags. The guy even got a tip, although a small one because he was slow bringing up the bags.

    33. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen the list. My name is on it and he is coming for my guns. Only a fool would think otherwise. Ask any intelligent Russian or Chinese citizen who suffered the oppression of socialism what happens when socialists rise to power.

    34. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about you but if I leave my laptop in my hotel room. I tend to lock it up in the safe. (normally I power it off, etc...) It seems to me this will only work for a very ideal set of conditions.

      I wouldn't even put much trust in that..

      Anyone who's ever been to bog standard annual security training has been told that foreign governments often have the cooperation of native businesses (and yours quite obviously use the same tricks). There's always the unnamed western european country warned about freely stealing corporate secrets too. In short, just because you think you're not a target RIGHT NOW, you can't be running around on vacation blathering about your line of work in the financial, defense, or government sectors, or any business with significant R&D investments. You should be very aware of yourself being a POTENTIAL target, and that applies to a large number of people.

      Your own country's (or corporation's) foreign intelligence activities shouldn't be in the papers much, and you shouldn't infer the size of the operations from what you see. Expect the same of any other country.

    35. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      French hotels. Never seen "Nikita", have you?

      Not a joke, this is most likely the "unnamed western european country" other anonymous mentions. Who knows, they could be warned about your country for same or different reasons...

    36. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, for the vast vast majority of us, there are very few hacker black operatives who are running around breaking into hotel rooms just so they can get a single Visa number from Bob the dipshit middle manager.

      Or just as important, if someone is going around breaking into hotel rooms and grabbing info from people's computers, they're likely to go for the easy mark and take the info from the numbnuts whose password is "12345", but you don't need a password anyway because he left his laptop opened and logged in. It's kind of like that old joke-- you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the guy next to you.

      Security is often not about making breaches impossible. It's about making them too difficult to be worth the risk and trouble.

    37. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      All I can conclude from your post is that you're a pretty maid working in one of these high-class hotels. You brought up China since you likely work for another country and you want to attention away from yourself. You believe your IQ surpasses 10 to possibly 100's of engineers.

      And since you only mention 5% "of us" as being targets, you hope that almost everyone reading this is going to fall in the 95% category who don't need to do anything to make your job easier.

    38. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      encryption isn't going to stop a simple keylogger

      How you got modded so highly for this trip speaks volumes for how far downhill Slashdot has gone recently. For starters, I suggest you go here and start to actually learn a little bit of what you are talking about. Secondly, there are many ways to defeat a "simple" keylogger. Cutting and pasting pieces of your passphrase from random documents you have is one.

      Newsflash Bob, YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT!

      And secondly, you have no idea how important someone's information is. Ever had your identity stolen? Do you know how much it costs and how much frustration it is when you are on the phone with somebody that swears up and down that you have an account with them and are on the hook for thousands of dollars? It doesn't matter if you can prove you didn't open the accounts, they will still harass the shit out of you in the meantime. People have a right to know what the real risks are. Or would you suggest just not telling anyone so as not to unsettle them. To me, that makes you the prime suspect of somebody that has something to gain from people not securing their digital possessions.

    39. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by blueskies · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean in a word document?

    40. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Seriously

      You obviously do not have any siblings, and the siblings which you do not have obviously do not have access to the global network.

      Family members are the most notorious for saying,"Uhhhh... we did not do that. But it was damn funny."

      That is a whole new perspective on Osama.

      The thought of the people that I know wearing evil maid costumes for Halloween is equally entertaining.

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    41. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also "screen locking" for X servers does not prevent console access on the other virtual terminals, if you've left an active login on them, or simply killing the X session and grabbing the login shell of the user created their shell session manually.

      I use:

      xinit & logout

    42. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by DrCode · · Score: 1

      Obviously, you haven't seen my collection of MP3's from Emusic or my Monkey Island2 savegame files!

    43. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by Bungie · · Score: 1

      Very few of those do so _automatically_. For almost all such systems, you have to manually select password protected screen locking.

      Most of the large companies I've worked with push this option as part of Group Policy to all their machines, and disable the ability to turn it off or change the timeout period.

      --
      The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
    44. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by will_die · · Score: 1

      So gang raping is legal, well I guess you learn something new every day.

    45. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Over there, apparently it was not legal, but it was happening and not being addressed. Isn't that enough?

    46. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by ryanov · · Score: 1

      It was an amendment to a bill. My apologies for not making that clearer:

      http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:SP2588:

    47. Re:Fine line between security and paranoia by ryanov · · Score: 1

      I agree, giving sweetheart deals to your friends and tax breaks to the rich is a much more important pursuit. That said, even if it's pointless (and here, it was not -- I believe these servicewomen were asked to sign a clause saying the contractor was held harmless if something like that should take place), why vote AGAINST it?

  5. Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Joanna Rutkowska is semi-hot!

      There, fixed that for you.

    2. Re:Also... by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      She is also a man.....

      http://www.rutkowska.yoyo.pl/

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
  6. News at eleven by sopssa · · Score: 1

    Leave your computer unprotected somewhere where you cant see it and someone can use it.

    Encryption doesn't really have anything to with that and anyone not stupid should understand that.

    1. Re:News at eleven by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering how this is news at all. It was obvious that this was a major problem with whole disk encryption.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    2. Re:News at eleven by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Actually, it really does. They can't *use* the computer at all. Installing the replacement bootloader requires physical access to the hard drive; simply powering up the laptop won't do anything except tell you which form of full-volume encryption is in use. You need another computer which the targer hard drive must be attached as a slave, edited, then re-installed in the target computer.

      It's doable, and if you aren't using TPM protection it'll even work, but even then your system isn't actually compromised yet - they need you to log in (providing your decryption key) then leave the computer alone *again* so they can retrieve the intercepted key. Possible? Sure, but hardly trivial.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  7. Just another good reason... by detachment2702 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just another good reason to take your bootloader with you on a thumb drive or other type of removeable media.

    1. Re:Just another good reason... by poofmeisterp · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just another good reason to take your bootloader with you on a thumb drive or other type of removeable media.

      Someone mod this up.

    2. Re:Just another good reason... by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Nah, they could still compromise your PC to upload the USB data later.

      Rather, I see this as an argument to keep control over your whole computer at all times, instead of leaving it around for the evil maid. Which is not unrealistic if your "computer" is a blackberry or iPhone. So, attacks of this sort are a boost for PDA-sized computers as opposed to laptops.

    3. Re:Just another good reason... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Nah, they could still compromise your PC to upload the USB data later.

      First, let's consider the case where we take GP literally -- it's just the bootloader on the USB drive.

      So no, they can't compromise your PC, because there's only encrypted data on your PC. There's also nothing sensitive on the flash drive.

      Or, take my last laptop: I had an encrypted Linux partition, and /boot partition was a USB key. I had my keys, unencrypted, on the initial ramfs. So if anyone was able to touch the USB key, ever, they could've done exactly this attack.

      But I removed the USB key whenever I wasn't actively booting from it, and kept it in my pocket.

      I also had a BIOS password, and the USB was the only configured boot device.

      But if they'd been able to access my laptop, there's really not much they could do in the time they have access to it -- it'd have to be a physical compromise, and it seems like that'd be hard to do universally across all laptops.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  8. Trojans still work by tokul · · Score: 1

    Trojans still work and can be used against security software. News at 11.

    1. Re:Trojans still work by JustOK · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      am or pm? Plus, that sounds like you still use TV for news. How...quaint. We heard that people used to do that. And, I'm not on your lawn.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Trojans still work by poofmeisterp · · Score: 0, Offtopic


      H1N1 will end the world. The TV said so, and the news doesn't lie!!!
      </sarcasm>

    3. Re:Trojans still work by Megahard · · Score: 2, Funny

      So the Evil Maid comes into your room and uses a Trojan?

      --
      I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
  9. bootloader checksum by arabagast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are the kind of person that are in the danger zone of this happening (not that you would leave a computer with such sensitive information in your hotel room.); You would probably feel a lot better if you were able to checksum the bootloader when returning, maybe from an external usb drive. This would offcourse run it's own OS, not being done from the bootloader(for obvious reasons).

    --
    Doolittle : ...What is your one purpose in life?
    Bomb no.20 : To explode of course.
    1. Re:bootloader checksum by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      If you are the kind of person that are in the danger zone of this happening (not that you would leave a computer with such sensitive information in your hotel room.); You would probably feel a lot better if you were able to checksum the bootloader when returning, maybe from an external usb drive. This would offcourse run it's own OS, not being done from the bootloader(for obvious reasons).

      Wouldn't it be a lot easier simply to use a boot loader from said USB stick?

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    2. Re:bootloader checksum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is easy; at least using Fedora's option to install via whole disk encryption. I haven't have any issues with this except for one client I worked for that had a no thumb drives allowed policy; I had to boot in the parking lot and leave my boot loader unattended in the car.

    3. Re:bootloader checksum by oldspewey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      one client I worked for that had a no thumb drives allowed policy

      I've dealt with clients like this too - no thumb drives, no phones with cameras - and in most cases these clients left gigantic vulnerabilities in other areas that made the threat of a few crappy cellphone pictures laughable.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    4. Re:bootloader checksum by amplt1337 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wouldn't it be even easier to simply keep all the important data on the USB stick? And run the OS off a R/O CD?

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    5. Re:bootloader checksum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If you are the kind of person that are in the danger zone of this happening (not that you would leave a computer with such sensitive information in your hotel room.); You would probably feel a lot better if you were able to checksum the bootloader when returning, maybe from an external usb drive. This would offcourse run it's own OS, not being done from the bootloader(for obvious reasons).

      Which is why you want a blackberry. One of the common complaints about blackberries is that they take a very long time to turn on after a power cycle. Five minutes or longer to boot isn't uncommon. Compared to most cellphones which boot in a few seconds, this is very irritating.

      The reason is that the blackberry is verifying the boot ROM, boot loader, OS, and firmware for signs of tampering.

    6. Re:bootloader checksum by Terrasque · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That won't work if the attacker use a hardware keylogger (which can be inserted under a laptop's keyboard - how often do you check there?).

      An easier way to checksum bootloader is via a tamper-proof hash stored in the encrypted area. But that require that the computer is actually telling you the truth, which is doubtful if they already went far enough to change the bootloader. But then again, your idea also require that the computer is honest... They could have replaced the bios itself, or made a small bootloader that worked its magic fast and silent, and then proceeded like a normal boot, starting from usb like bios would do..

      I was thinking of this a few months ago, actually, and the only solution I found was to either always have it with you (impractical), or store it in a trustworthy safe (could also be slightly impractical to haul around). And still you have to be certain of your environment (spy cameras, tempest type snooping, in some cases recording the sound of your key clicks...).

      Also, if you want it connected to a network, well darnit, you got another can of worms.. First, you need to update it, or else its vulnerable fast. Second, you need to trust the OS providers and the actual update. Could someone have stolen the signing key and faked an update? Is the company / employees really trustworthy? Are you sure the developer's machine isn't hacked and is used to spread dangerous code?

      I tried to make a system where I (if I had a lot of resources) couldn't possibly find any way around. I just couldn't find any. All of them had a potential loophole.

      My conclusion was : Pick an approperiate level of paranoia and go from there. And never expect it to be 100% secure.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    7. Re:bootloader checksum by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Addendum to my own post :

      TPM would solve at least part of this problem. But I've been holding my breath for years now, and have to admit i've almost forgotten all about it by now..

      TPM by itself is not evil, and can help stuff some large holes that the current security model have.
      However, since the only thing that was focused on when it came out was how it could lock us out of our own computers, absolutely nothing at all happened.. And we're still suffering from those security problems it could easily have fixed.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    8. Re:bootloader checksum by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Actually, wouldn't it be a good idea to put the bootloader onto an EEPROM module with a password passively baked in? The computer password acts as the encryption key for the bootloader so without knowing the password you can't meaningfully replace the loader- if you do the computer can't be unlocked anymore. Unless, of course, you brute-force the bootloader encryption, which takes time. Still, replacing the bootloader is a fairly involved procedure in itself - easy to do for a company's IT department but not quite as easy to do stealthily.

      The system should be designed in such a way that the EEPROM is the only way to boot it. Of course this makes installing operating systems harder as they aren't aware of the EEPROM. On the other hand, what's your business installing a new operating system on a high-security computer anyway? Plus, I'd expect Linux to support the system in relatively short time.

      Granted, this is less likely to work with Windows (unless you use Vista/7 and the EEPROM is presented to the system as a ROM drive containing only the EFI System Partition containing the BCD, which contains entries for the windows partition and all other drives).

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    9. Re:bootloader checksum by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1

      This wouldn't detect a hacked bios. I'm not saying it's easy to do only that it's possible.

  10. And that's the lesser evil by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    You could have found the evil bartender.

    You leave your laptop at the hotel and you go out to take a beer. There, you meet the evil bartender, who because of a common past becomes your friend and starts inviting you to more and more beer. Then he closes the bar and you both go to a strip club where you meet the evil bartender's girlfriend and her friend who we shall call "Foxette".

    The next morning, you wake up in an unknown appartment with Foxette and a guy you don't even know. You quickly get out of there and go to work, with such a massive headache than when asked about the laptop's full disk encription, you answer is "the what?".

    1. Re:And that's the lesser evil by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Has anyone seen my kidney?"

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:And that's the lesser evil by rcamans · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute. I like the sound of this. Where can I get me a whole bunch of evil bartenders? Please?

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    3. Re:And that's the lesser evil by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      This story is either completely made up, or you've also been on business trips to Manila.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    4. Re:And that's the lesser evil by Abreu · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute. I like the sound of this. Where can I get me a whole bunch of evil bartenders? Please?

      Evil bartenders are found all over the world, but to narrow down your search I would suggest Pattaya, Cancun, Nassau, Miami, Corfu...

      Even my home town has quite a few

      --
      No sig for the moment.
  11. My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Sorry, but my bootloader, GRUB, kernel and boot partition are on USB. The hard drive really is wholly encrypted... except a few hundred bytes in LUKS partition headers.

    The evil maid will thus have to work harder: devise a LUKS partition header which will thoroughly corrupt my copy of cryptsetup as it tries to decrypt the partition.

    With TrueCrypt, which doesn't put any identifiable information in partition headers, the job might be harder still.

    1. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Its funny the levels kiddy porn file sharers have to go to these days to stay 1 step ahead of the police.

    2. Re:My bootloader is on USB by MyLongNickName · · Score: 3, Funny

      If someone wants your information that bad, they just need a pair of pliers to succeed with the attack.

      1) Step one: apply pliers to target's scrotum.
      2) Ask them once to access the laptop.
      3) If any resistance is given, squeeze the pliers just a tad.

      Now, leave it to a bunch of nerds to come up with technical workarounds and miss the real point.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    3. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bigger worry than the evil maid is the rubber hose method of decryption--beating a suspect until he reveals the key. Or, the US version of this, hold a suspect in contempt until he reveals the key. Suspects can be held indefinitely until they reveal the key. Supposedly there is a 5th amendment argument against the forced divulging of encryption keys, but in a somewhat ambiguous case this argument was rejected, and the suspect just in the past few months pled guilty.

      But what if there is no password, or that the password is stored on a system that is itself encrypted? Take two systems, the key file for system A is on the encrypted drive of B, and vice versa. Either system can be rebooted individually. But if they are ever turned off at the same time, all the data becomes unrecoverable. Would this be considered destruction of evidence? Regardless, you could not be held in contempt, and jailed indefinitely.

      Of course the data could be recovered through various means if the authorities messed with the computers while they were still running. But I doubt they would expect such a scenario, and even if they did, messing with running computers is dangerous from a data integrity standpoint. It allows the suspect to install various booby traps that erase data.

    4. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what you have on USB is just one bootloader. There's another one in the BIOS which runs first. How do you know the evil maid didn't compromise that, too? Maybe she included an invisible virtual machine monitor that appears to boot your machine normally while logging keystrokes.

      They might already be watching you! Just waiting until they've captured enough information about your contacts, waiting to capture enough evidence against you to be sure of a conviction.

    5. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Exactly.

      Anyone will divulge a key under torture or threat of imprisonment (maybe under hypnosis or drugs too.)

      The key has to be irrecoverably destroyable. Also Alice has to constantly be ready to destroy the key at the first sign of trouble.

      Usually I envision such a system as having the key printed on paper (easily destroyable), but I am trying to envision how your system A and B idea could work. Seems kind of like there is a chicken and egg problem. I am just trying to wrap my head around it but its too early for my brain to work.

    6. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, leave it to a bunch of nerds to come up with technical workarounds and miss the real point.

      A titanium chastity belt for men?

    7. Re:My bootloader is on USB by russotto · · Score: 5, Funny

      If someone wants your information that bad, they just need a pair of pliers to succeed with the attack.

      1) Step one: apply pliers to target's scrotum.
      2) Ask them once to access the laptop.
      3) If any resistance is given, squeeze the pliers just a tad.

      Now, leave it to a bunch of nerds to come up with technical workarounds and miss the real point.

      Workaround 1) Make sure only women have the information.
      Workaround 2) Preventative castration
      Workaround 3) Shoot anyone with pliers who comes within 10 feet
      Workaround 4) Duress code which releases false information. (this one's likely practical but only as a delaying tactic; it's going to hurt a lot when the interrogator finds the information doesn't verify)

    8. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get past the chicken and egg problem by creating a random password that is like 50 characters long and written on a sheet of paper. You use this while installing both systems (you could use a different password for each system, but it wouldn't gain you anything). You also use this to add the key file to each system's partition. Then, when you have the systems set up, you burn the password. Since it's 50 random characters, there's no way you'll remember it. You might remember a few characters, which you'll gladly give up under torture, but remembering the whole thing would require many days of dedicated effort. Since you don't want to remember it, it shouldn't be a problem.

    9. Re:My bootloader is on USB by idontgno · · Score: 1

      xkcd concurs.

      BTW, xkcd's implementation of this particular attack is superior to yours, because not all laptop owners have scroti.

      (Is that even a word? High school Latin didn't discuss that. Stupid Bible belt.)

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    10. Re:My bootloader is on USB by ACalcutt · · Score: 1

      Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/538/

    11. Re:My bootloader is on USB by MyLongNickName · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are correct in the gender detail. However, if someone even MENTIONED pliers and my scrotum, I think I'd spill any secrets as soon as I saw the pliers coming toward me.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    12. Re:My bootloader is on USB by laejoh · · Score: 1

      Titanium pliers?

    13. Re:My bootloader is on USB by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Didn't that all already happen at the Yahoo convention in Taiwan?

    14. Re:My bootloader is on USB by yanyan · · Score: 1

      Workaround: Move for legislation that will outlaw pliers.

    15. Re:My bootloader is on USB by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Step one: Place thermite above hard drive.

      Step two: Construct laptop to ignite thermite on any attempt at tampering, or when the self-destruct happens.

      Step three: Summon just enough courage to reveal the wrong password when it's convincing to do so. Yes, it's going to hurt, but now they can'tget any more out of you, no matter how painful they make it. And if you were tempted to reveal the real password, realize that either way, they might keep torturing you anyway.

      This could be scaled down -- rather than the laptop hard drive, it could be a small USB device which the keys never leave. I'm not sure what's known about recovering erased data from flash, but it wouldn't be hard to simply erase the block with the key on it.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    16. Re:My bootloader is on USB by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Duress code which releases false information.

      Or one that destroys the drive.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    17. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blow torch.

      (Not that kind of blow.)

    18. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've booted the same way you described since 2006, but with LILO rather than GRUB. My usb key also has a gpg-encrypted keyfile that my initramfs uses to opens the LUKS partition.

      The next step is to create a "small" (for some value of "small") Windows XP partition at the front of the drive and make it bootable. Put some games and other bullshit there to make it look used. Without the key, it's a Windows laptop that, at least at first glance, looks nothing but ordinary.

    19. Re:My bootloader is on USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Workaround 5) I'm actually the interrogator, you insensitive clod!

  12. hotel room? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. who leaves their computer in the room when going "out" (isnt that why we all bought netbooks to take with us in our pocket/bag?
    2. who does not put the "do not disturb" when going to a hotel room (yea, yea, not secure...)
    3. cant do this to a linux livecd (unless they replace your cdr)

    1. Re:hotel room? by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      1. Pretty much anyone who doesn't want to lug their work laptop around with them to the restaurant, etc. at the end of a long, shitty day on the client site. Most of my colleagues are just itching to be free of the laptop and tie at the end of the day.
      2. I typically hang the "do not trojan" sign on the doorknob instead, as this offers a much higher degree of protection.
      3. Our corporate laptop image is not available as a LiveCD, and unless you're running the corporate image you don't have access many of the tools you need in order to do your job.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    2. Re:hotel room? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      ...
      2. I typically hang the "do not trojan" sign on the doorknob instead, as this offers a much higher degree of protection.
      ...

      Insert immature joke here. That was awesome. LOL

    3. Re:hotel room? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      ...
      2. I typically hang the "do not trojan" sign on the doorknob instead, as this offers a much higher degree of protection.
      ...

      Insert immature joke here. That was awesome. LOL

      Something about Yahoo! and missing out on the latest developer swag due to misinterpretation, no doubt.

    4. Re:hotel room? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      eh?

    5. Re:hotel room? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      OH! :D

    6. Re:hotel room? by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      netbooks are not a laptop replacement. Of course you would leave your laptop in your room, because there is an expectation of security, close to that ofy our own home. Or, there should be.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
  13. BIOS password by __aardcx5948 · · Score: 1

    If the computer is shut down, and you've a BIOS password enabled - you wouldn't be able to do this, right?

    You'd first have to enter the BIOS password to boot the system, then press a key to boot from external media and do your mischief. But, if you had physical access to the machine, I suppose you could take it apart and reset the BIOS password anyway.

    Really, if you have physical access to the machine, it's got no chance.

    1. Re:BIOS password by Xoron101 · · Score: 1

      Or remove the drive, put it in another computer, install the boot loader and off you go.

      Without physical security, you may as well have no security.

    2. Re:BIOS password by Thoguth · · Score: 1

      If the computer is shut down, and you've a BIOS password enabled - you wouldn't be able to do this, right?

      You'd first have to enter the BIOS password to boot the system, then press a key to boot from external media and do your mischief. But, if you had physical access to the machine, I suppose you could take it apart and reset the BIOS password anyway.

      Really, if you have physical access to the machine, it's got no chance.

      The difference is, if someone took it apart and reset the BIOS password, it would take a lot more time than just the 1-minute boot from USB stick, and more importantly, the next time you boot the machine, you'd see the password was reset, know it had been tampered, and not enter your decryption key. Unless there's a more sophisticated BIOS password attack that I'm unaware of, this would keep your data private.

      A bigger issue, though, is if you have information sensitive enough to require a BIOS password and full disk encryption, it's probably also sensitive enough to physically secure the machine and/or keep it on your person at all time.

      --
      The requested URL /iframe/sig.html was not found on this server.
    3. Re:BIOS password by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      If the computer is shut down, and you've a BIOS password enabled - you wouldn't be able to do this, right?

      You'd first have to enter the BIOS password to boot the system, then press a key to boot from external media and do your mischief. But, if you had physical access to the machine, I suppose you could take it apart and reset the BIOS password anyway.

      Really, if you have physical access to the machine, it's got no chance.

      BIOS passwords are easy.. simply remove the harddrive and install in another laptop.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    4. Re:BIOS password by jandrese · · Score: 1

      The point is that the encryption software itself is not encrypted (or is self-encrypted with it's own key, which is pointless), and you can replace it with a trojaned version, presumably by booting off of USB stick or CD or something and installing your hacked version. That said, the BIOS password would actually be a pretty strong deterrent here, since even if they do reset it, you're going to notice when you come back and your BIOS password is not set. This attack pretty much relies on you not noticing the compromise and start using your machine normally (entering passwords, etc...)

      Note that this attack doesn't work against the most common case: someone stealing your laptop, since it requires you to operate the machine thinking it is uncompromised. This is for the super-paranoid who think (or maybe HAVE) a government out to get them.

      Of course, as other people have pointed out, if someone has extended physical access to your machine, all bets are off. You could have a dozen different hardware keyloggers, a trojaned HDD, automatic hardware screen capture, hidden webcam, anything really up to your level of paranoia.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    5. Re:BIOS password by Otter+Popinski · · Score: 1

      I think you've misunderstood. If the computer is shut down, the full-disk encryption will do its job as intended, even if -- as some other replies have suggested -- the HDD is removed and put into another computer. The attack discussed in the article assumes that you've left your computer on (so the HDD is "unlocked") and the attacker has physical access to it. At that point, they can install the hacked bootloader and *then* steal your computer or hard drive. At least I'm assuming they'd steal something at that point, because if they just wanted your data, well... the computer was already on and they already had access to it.

    6. Re:BIOS password by BranMan · · Score: 1

      Hopefully you have intrusion detection too - then you'd see that the case had been opened when booting it up later, and again, not input your decryption password.

    7. Re:BIOS password by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If the computer is shut down, the full-disk encryption will do its job as intended, even if -- as some other replies have suggested -- the HDD is removed and put into another computer.

      From TFA:

      Step 1: Attacker gains access to your shut-down computer and boots it from a separate volume. The attacker writes a hacked bootloader onto your system, then shuts it down.

      You're not safe if you shut down, that's the point of the article. In order for your computer to boot it needs something unencrypted to boot from. Unless you keep your bootloader on removable media and truly encrypt the entire disk you are vulnerable to this attack. It's either that or hardware encryption that would support booting from an encrypted device.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:BIOS password by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure what you mean by extended access...it would take less than a half a minute for someone who is moderately dextrous and has practiced a few times to add a keystroke logger/transmitter to my Asus netbook or to replace the keyboard with one that has been compromised, and I doubt that other laptops are much more difficult.

    9. Re:BIOS password by Otter+Popinski · · Score: 1

      Sorry, GP. This guy's got the gist of it.

    10. Re:BIOS password by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Possibly, but in real life there are complications. What if your replacement keyboard isn't worn in exactly the same was as the original? Will the victim notice that his J key doesn't have that little fleck of paint missing, or that he smooth spot on his keyboard is gone? Or will he notice that his keyboard is sitting funny because it didn't snap back in properly? Like most things, the devil is in the details.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    11. Re:BIOS password by GravityStar · · Score: 1

      Don't rely on BIOS passwords to protect you against three letter agencies. They're basically the kindergarten locks of the pc world.

    12. Re:BIOS password by afidel · · Score: 1

      IBM laptop's and HDD's have an additional HDD level password which won't allow access to the HDD without a separate password and AFAIK it's based on part of the SATA/ATAPI standard so you would have to replace the controller (I think it's stored in the controller not on the platter) to get around it (doable but not exactly fast or convenient).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  14. Bootloader? BitLocker? by sam0737 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I didn't read the RTFA, but aren't MSFT's BitLocker supposes to validate the boot path (from BIOS code to bootloader up to the BitLocker decrypter) with the help of the TPM chip?

    1. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I didn't read the RTFA, but aren't MSFT's BitLocker supposes to validate the boot path (from BIOS code to bootloader up to the BitLocker decrypter) with the help of the TPM chip?

      It does, and thus the attack doesn't work here:
      "The key used for the disk encryption is sealed (encrypted) by the TPM chip and will only be released to the OS loader code if the early boot files appear to be unmodified."
      Now we'd just need someone to reverse the decision that TPMs are all evil and should not be used.

    2. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Now we'd just need someone to reverse the decision that TPMs are all evil and should not be used.

      What do you mean? Assuming you aren't using a company computer, you're allowed to make that decision all by yourself. There are quite a few machines out there with TPM on board.

      -ec

    3. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Cyberax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. You can have almost perfect _physical_ security with TPM.

      Alas, most of developers are allergic to it, even if it has good uses.

    4. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by rcamans · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of designs do not have the tpm chip implemented. I know, because I am a designer, and most of the design requirements I fill do not include or want a tpm chp. This will only be in all systems when Intel makes it a part of their system chips (what used to be the north bridge / south bridge combination, and is now the PCH or silverthorne).

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    5. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The problem with bitlocker is that it's only part of the ultimatextremeultra most expensive version of Windows. Most people would be too cheap to get that version, even if they knew what the benefit was. So your home computer probably doesn't have it. Your company provided laptop probably also doesn't have it, unless you're fairly high up in importance.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    6. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Lots and lots of people (on Slashdot and elsewhere) believe that TPM is essentially only useful for locking down a system so that you can't use it how you want to. The belief is that eventually, TPM will be a) in every computer you buy and b) restrict the use of, say, alternate operating systems or software that your vendor doesn't approve of.

    7. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by sam0737 · · Score: 1

      Even a Thinkpad T40 I bought in 2003 has TPM. Although I am not sure if it's the version required by BitLocker (BitLocker requires v1.2 IIRC)

      I believe most Centrino laptop have that included. Or is that only Thinkpad?

      At any case, if you are that paranoid because you are hiding child porn photo, or the company values the data so much, either you or the company should have study this matter in depth, understand what the hell the TPM is, and pick a suitable solution.

      Thinking of this, Windows does provide a pretty easy out of box, usable and technical sounding full-disk (or full-partition) encryption. Kudos to Microsoft.

    8. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well if you think the price of BitLocker is higher than the value of its protection you are probably not the target of ninja maids.

    9. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. You can have almost perfect _physical_ security with TPM.

      Alas, most of developers are allergic to it, even if it has good uses.

      I think a lot of people would be happy with the security aspect of TPM, but many are worried worried about it being used by the evil corporations for DRM. Or disabling of "non-genuine" licenses.

    10. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately in the security world you can drive a horse and carriage through "almost".

      The remaining hole is that the TPM does not verify itself to the user and so you can't really believe that it is doing what it should be doing once it has left your possession. Of course you could make some sort of trusted module to verify the TPM, but it's turtles all the way down...

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    11. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      "The remaining hole is that the TPM does not verify itself to the user and so you can't really believe that it is doing what it should be doing once it has left your possession."

      Oh, but it does. Just ask TPM to sign its serial number. Then check it using a public key.

      This check will fail if TPM has been replaced.

    12. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by mlts · · Score: 2, Informative

      Windows 7 is different from Vista in the way businesses and enterprises use it. Vista had two editions that were activated via an internal KMS system (very important when you have thousands of PCs and do not want them touching the Internet for activation). Windows 7 has only one edition that has this functionality, the Enterprise edition. This is available via volume license key agreements. Other than the MAK/KMS model of activation, this edition is the exact same as Ultimate which has BitLocker, BranchCache, and the other items.

      So, if a company is using a volume license of Windows 7, they will have access to BitLocker functionality. Server-wise, Windows Server 2008 and Windows Server 2008 R2 both have BitLocker functionality built in.

      This way, if a corporation that is running Windows 7 orders a bunch of laptops, they would be fools not to order ones with TPM chips because their OS will easily support this functionality. If they have an Active Directory infrastructure and no existing encryption product (PGP, PointSec), getting BitLocker deployed enterprise wide wouldn't be too difficult with AD holding recovery keys to machines.

      I'm glad Microsoft did this. No worry if a company has Business or Enterprise editions for features (like the issues with Vista). Now, if a company has a VLK and uses a key management server for internal activations [1], they have BitLocker available with W7.

      [1]: I'm not a fan of activation at all. Personally, my wish is they would have gone back to how XP VLK editions handled this. Businesses are not going to be pirating Windows because the BSA will come for a visit. Pirates will crack any activation. So, there is no real antipiracy benefit to Microsoft in forcing businesses to have an activation infrastructure.

    13. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      The problem with bitlocker is that it's only part of the ultimatextremeultra most expensive version of Windows. Most people would be too cheap to get that version, even if they knew what the benefit was. So your home computer probably doesn't have it.

      You say that like it's a bad thing. Which do you think is a more likely scenario:

      1.) Home user has valuable data on their machine that cannot fall into the "wrong hands" (personally identifiable information in the browser cache notwithstanding).

      2.) User has lots of data that is valuable TO THEM, but not worth stealing for anyone else (i.e. photos, school projects, music library), doesn't back up their data, and doesn't surf safely.

      In every case of every home PC I have ever worked on, there has been exactly one person who has fit into category number one, and that's because he owned his own company and had his Quickbooks data on it. Everyone else has fit into the second category.

      I've had dozens of machines over the years that I've had to rescue from a defective hard drive or malware attack. Recovering their data usually involves either booting from a BartPE/Acronis/Knoppix disc and transferring it to an external hard drive or LAN location, or popping out the drive and sticking an IDE/SATA-to-USB tether device on it and migrating it that way. If home users were given the option to encrypt their data in the event of an Evil Maid, the majority wouldn't use it anyway, but a few would. The few who would are no more likely to keep a data backup (or encrypt that backup, defeating the purpose of encrypting the drive in the first place), and if one of THEM ends up with a corrupted boot sector or malware attack, their family photos, school projects, and Limewire music are completely hosed with no chance of recovery...because that is the entire point of the encryption.

      The way I figure it, if the data is important enough to encrypt, it's too important to be on your home computer. If it must be worked on at home, and it's important enough to encrypt, then it's important enough to get a company issued laptop to do it.

    14. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D · · Score: 1

      Not if the attacker has the original TPM chip. Then it's a trivial replay attack. Ask the original TPM chip to sign its serial number, then hardcore the answer into the new chip.

    15. Re:Bootloader? BitLocker? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      The TPM chip authenticates the CPU and BIOS as the first step.

      And you can't "hardcore the answer into the new chip", TPM chips are supposed to be _physically_ secure on the hardware circuit level. It might be possible if you're the NSA.

      There's one _real_ attack - gain control just after the startup even before TPM is initialized. You can protect against this by carefully designing your chipset, but there were several demonstrated attacks of this kind.

      However, this is definitely not a trivial task.

  15. Nope, won't work with Bitlocker by afidel · · Score: 1

    At least not with TPM hardware store, that's kind of the whole point. I'm surprised Bruce isn't aware of this combination.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  16. Just use a CD by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Informative

    When you encrypt your system partition with Truecrypt it forces you to make a CD (you actually have to burn and mount it before it will let you continue). This CD contains a copy of the bootloader and encryption key. If you always boot off that CD it won't help to attacker to replace the bootloader on the HDD.

    Of course they could target the CD but at least you can keep a mini CD in your wallet at all times.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  17. BIOS passwd might help by redelm · · Score: 1

    It is very hard to prevent compromises when the attacker has physical access to the machine.

    One thing that might slow/stop the evil maid is a BIOS boot passwd or BIOS disk passwd. This denies the maid a boot or any disk access (respectively). Of course, she could always pop the disk out and write it on her own machine. Unless key [boot] parts were BIOS encrypted.

    As usual, security always has some cost for the user and has to be balanced against benefits [reduced risk of loss].

    1. Re:BIOS passwd might help by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Good idea. If you've set the password on the hard drive, moving it to a different machine won't help.

    2. Re:BIOS passwd might help by GiMP · · Score: 1

      The problem with using a BIOS password is that the disk could be removed from the machine. This can be solved by one or both of the following solutions:

        1. JB-Weld or similar epoxy. Getting the disk out of the laptop will require destroying it, and possibly damaging the data. This doesn't make covert operations impossible, but makes it a lot harder.
        2. A latch-triggered combustion mechanism. Try pulling the disk out and *poof*. Maybe this could be accomplished through a simple spring-loaded latch and some wires to the laptop battery?

    3. Re:BIOS passwd might help by redelm · · Score: 1
      HDs are easily removed from laptops because they frequently fail. Often soft [chkdsk recovery], sometimes hard [replace].

      Deliberate combustion is beneath silly: people have laptops to travel. Frequently by aircraft where such devices are prohibited for excellent reason.

      Both of these "one-way" solutions neglect a very important loss mechanism -- irrecoverable loss of data. I would guess 10-100x more data is lost than stolen. While theft can very rarely have spectacular "James Bond" consequences, loss of data represents 100s or 1000s of manhours. Risk is not only consequence, but also probability. Do njot ignore frequent smaller consequences.

    4. Re:BIOS passwd might help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're someone that feels they have a significant threat from an "evil maid" attack, you probably aren't as concerned with the likelihood of losing the data as you are with having it fall into the wrong hands. As for combustible laptops, it might not be entirely practical, but on the other hand, your laptop already contains combustibles, a self-combusting laptop it could be designed in a way that didn't cause an airport panic. Even if it combusted in the airport, there are cases where this has already happened by accident due to faulty batteries, so it wouldn't necessarily be that unusual.

  18. I am thinking there is a different way. by JDeane · · Score: 1

    Use a USB or PS2 key logging dongle to grab the passwords.... Finger print scanners are not really reliable from what I understand. This is why the best security is physical security and limiting access to you hardware.

    1. Re:I am thinking there is a different way. by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      My Mac doesn't have a PS/2 port, so it's 50% more secure than a non-Mac PC!

  19. Paranoia by Gudeldar · · Score: 1

    If you are paranoid enough to be worried about ninja maids then you probably boot off a Live CD and keep all your data on the encrypted drive.

  20. Use a bootdisk by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Boot from read-only removable media. Have a 'verification program' in the boot loader that verifies a signature on the OS bootstrap

    Digitally sign everything that isn't encrypted, and contain the proper signatures/keys on the removable media that you always carry with you

  21. Best solution - take the darn laptop with you by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    What brainless clod would leave a laptop with sensitive data on it lying around in a hotel room anyway, encrypted disk or not?

    This is a non story - as everyone has known for decades , someone with access to the machine can do what they like. And they probably will.

    1. Re:Best solution - take the darn laptop with you by Sancho · · Score: 1

      The whole point is that people think that encryption is some sort of magic bullet that will prevent them from having to think about security. So if they think that they're secure, they think that there's no need to lug the laptop around. If it gets stolen, who cares? The thieves won't get any information off of it.

      This story is trying to promote the fact that there's more to it.

    2. Re:Best solution - take the darn laptop with you by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > What brainless clod would leave a laptop with sensitive data on it lying
      > around in a hotel room anyway, encrypted disk or not?

      Any "C-level" executive. After all, he played golf with a senior marketing executive of the encryption system vendor just last week and was assured that it was absolutely secure. And he knows that's true because he is such a fine judge of character. Besides, the guy let him win.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    3. Re:Best solution - take the darn laptop with you by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      as everyone has known for decades , someone with access to the machine can do what they like

      I've met technical people (employed in technical positions, like sysadmins and programmers) who didn't really get that at first; expecting a typical businessman who's been assured that his new laptop "is encrypted" to realise that it's not perfectly safe is a little much.

  22. Easily foiled by Hogwash+McFly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Evil maids are easy to spot because of their goatees.

    --
    Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
    1. Re:Easily foiled by ettlz · · Score: 1

      Evil maids are easy to spot because of their goatees.

      Whoa, what kind of room service are you getting?!

    2. Re:Easily foiled by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Evil maids are easy to spot because of their goatees.

      Like Flexo in drag.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    3. Re:Easily foiled by joebagodonuts · · Score: 1

      Modded "Insightful"?. Mods need to get out more... only on ./

      --
      "Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
    4. Re:Easily foiled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I kill you!!!!

  23. Who cares? by Mr_Plattz · · Score: 1

    Why is this an issue for us who lock our workstations or logoff before we leave it on and unlocked? Has someone found a vulnerability with gaining access to a live Linux file system via console or via SSH that we should know about? If you're answer this you may as well also include Windows, can you gain access to Windows after it's been locked? What are they going to do? The second they bounce it the data is useless.

    1. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the point here is that your 'The second they bounce it the data is useless' point is flawed. They are saying that, yes, if someone steals the device once the data is unavailable to them. However, if they acquire secretly, and compromise the system and return it without your knowledge, with a keylogger in the bootloader, they could log your disk's password and the next time they steal the device they have full access.

    2. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um.. because the evil maid can just boot from external media with all the privileges she needs.

    3. Re:Who cares? by elsJake · · Score: 1

      Yes , one can abuse the DMA subsystem though firewire/usb and read/write to system memory. That way you can recover encryption keys and/or unlock the "locked" system. If you leave your laptop with the screen locked but on in your hotel room you have the cold boot attack for your encryption keys.

  24. Here we go again.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yet another "if someone has complete unrestricted access to your computer they can own it" attacks. If someone has the kind of access that they suggest in the article then they could hook in a keylogger between your keyboard and USB port, wait a week, pickup their keylogger and get all of your passwords and private information anyway.

    Encryption is there to protected the *data* it is not there to protect your *computer.*

    Frankly whole drive encryption is a bad idea.
      - It slows stuff down.
      - Makes your computer more likely to malfunction (and to be more serious when it does).
      - But worst of all it makes it much easier to break into your encrypted data.

    The more unencrypted data the attacker has, the easier it is to break the encryption. If you encrypt for example your Windows folder then you have just given the attacker a TON of information and while modern encryption cannot often be broken on PCs, the security services might be able to have a good shot at it.

    1. Re:Here we go again.... by ledow · · Score: 1

      You second point against is the reason I steer clear on permanent whole-disk encryption on working machines.

      Even with expensive servers, perfect RAID cards, BBU's and every other possible protection - sometimes the OS will just flip out and either crash or write crap to your filesystem. If not the OS, then the drive itself will do it. And then you have to do a chkdsk/fsck and with any form of encryption the chances are that you just trashed a whole lot more than a recent file entry and whatever open temporary files you have. Encryption ruining the basic readability of the filesystem and its underlying structure is the main reason I hate encryption products that operate whole-disk (which is the only perfect way to stop things being complete secure against permanent physical theft, I have to admit).

      I can see using encryption for backups, I can see using it for any data that leaves the computer (network, tapes, etc.) but on the actual machine itself? I can see working on encrypted containers (with the knowledge that the data never gets written anywhere else in the meantime). But it's always seemed too risky to blanket-apply it to the whole storage device unless you're *really* certain about your backups being perfect and up-to-date all the time.

      It's one of those "yeah, should never happen - but if it does, you're screwed" things.

    2. Re:Here we go again.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last point you make is not necessarily true. Yes knowing some plaintext has been useful in breaking some encryption schemes ..... but it does not follow that this is true in every case.

    3. Re:Here we go again.... by mlts · · Score: 1

      FDE has been around since the days of Macs and FWB Hard Disk Toolkit doing a modified (2 rounds IIRC) version of DES on any external hard disks (or Casady and Greene's A. M. E. doing a full DES on disks). It does have a performance it, but from what I've seen (and I've been using WDE in many platforms for a long time), the hit is not an issue with almost all FDE types of programs.

      Encryption is a tradeoff. Yes, you lose reliability. However, if you have a decent backup mechanism (and you should regardless of the presence of encryption), the reliability loss isn't much, assuming you remember your password or keep your keyfiles safe.

      The last assertion of being easier to break into encrypted data doesn't make sense. I can see people installing a FDE utility then assuming they are safe from all attacks (including ones via remote). If a person is concerned about data, perhaps it might be wise to install TrueCrypt in addition to the FDE security to only mount sensitive files when used and dismount them immediately. This way, should the laptop be seized while on and the memory dumped, an attacker would not have access to the whole filesystem. Similar functionality can be accomplished with multiple users on Windows and EFS.

      Oh, the chosen plaintext attack would be a problem if people kept using 64 bit blocks and lame implementations of encryption like ECB. However, with modern algorithms that use a bigger blocksize and a more advanced diffusion protocol which uses a different subkey per sector, an attacker can know all they want to about plaintext, but it will not help them discern the key. The TrueCrypt manual has a good section on this.

  25. Why are we talking about this? by dachshund · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can see why it's called the "evil maid" attack; a likely scenario is that you leave your encrypted computer in your hotel room when you go out to dinner, and the maid sneaks in and installs the hacked bootloader. The same maid could even sneak back the next night and erase any traces of her actions.

    Maybe if she's an idiot. Once you've installed your own bootloader, it can neatly remove itself. (After installing malware, or transferring the encryption keys and data it needs over the network.) Why in the world would the maid unnecessarily repeat the riskiest part of the entire attack?

    But more to the point, it must be a slow week. Why are "serious" security researchers even wasting time on something this obvious? Of course your software-based hard disk encryption is hosed in the event that an attacker gets hold of your machine and can alter the bootloader. Hell, the really sophisticated bad guys aren't even going to do anything this difficult or risky. After all, the encryption key has to be in RAM somewhere whenever you're using software-based encryption (hardware encryption excluded). A well-engineered piece of malware will recover it, and two-factor authentication isn't going to help you.

    Even trusted boot will only get you so far against a motivated adversary with this much sophistication. Don't leave your vital computing equipment behind in your hotel room.

    1. Re:Why are we talking about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read a lot of comments to the effect of "why don't you take your laptop with you".. that has a number of practical problems.

      1) Going to a fancy dress banquet? Yep, that laptop case over your shoulder looks real fine, and I'm sure the customer will be impressed.

      2) Heading out for a night with the colleagues and customers? Seems that shlepping the laptop around to the bars,pubs, discos, etc. makes it a target for a plain old grab attack? You've protected against the targeted evil maid at the expense of losing the laptop in run of the mill street crime. Yes, your encryption will keep your data safe, but how many people carry a full backup and reserve computer on travel?

      3) Sooner or later you'll wind up needing to go to the bathroom. Carrying your laptop with you is probably impractical. Do you trust the folks you're meeting with to leave your laptop on the desk (after all they could be the ultimate employer of the evil maid)?

      There needs to be some generic solution that lets you not worry about the "stick in the USB boot device and press reset" sort of attack. Once you've got that, then all you worry about is it not being physically stolen.. and the hotel safe takes care of that for you. A laptop with NO writable media would do; that is, it uses only external storage. (sure, one could open the laptop and install some sort of keylogger, but that is trivially solvable with the usual tamperproof seals or, if you're really serious, self destruct) You'd carry the entire disk with you in an encrypted USB dongle.

    2. Re:Why are we talking about this? by dachshund · · Score: 1

      There needs to be some generic solution that lets you not worry about the "stick in the USB boot device and press reset" sort of attack. Once you've got that, then all you worry about is it not being physically stolen.. and the hotel safe takes care of that for you. A laptop with NO writable media would do; that is, it uses only external storage. (sure, one could open the laptop and install some sort of keylogger, but that is trivially solvable with the usual tamperproof seals or, if you're really serious, self destruct) You'd carry the entire disk with you in an encrypted USB dongle.

      The solution is to keep your sensitive data in an extremely portable device like a smartphone, and to never let it out of your sight. It may take a few years for these phones the become small enough to do the kinds of things that your typical spy/mafioso/industrial engineer needs to do with the device (when he's not out at fancy dress banquets, of course :).

      Unfortunately, any general solution is going to be vulnerable to some sort of physical or software compromise. If the device (or any of its subcomponents) contains software-modifiable firmware, that can be re-written by some piece of malware. Even if all storage is RO, the device's OS can be compromised "in RAM" if there's an exploitable software vulnerability and it accesses the network. Physical anti-tamper protections will only get you so far against a motivated attacker. Most can be compromised somehow --- and if the device is produced on the mass-market, one could probably swap in a modified lookalike.

      The point here is that while there may be some extreme combination of safeguards one can use to protect their hardware, the challenges in implementing these are far, far greater than that of carrying your hardware with you at all times (or finding some trusted, secure physical storage to put it in when you're out dancing with the villain's girlfriend). Portable commodity computing devices are not compatible with the evil maid.

    3. Re:Why are we talking about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's not wasting her time. I have the advantage of being a regular reader of her blog--but it's harsh to call it a waste. She whipped it up over the course of a day or two. Why? Because "everybody knows about it"--but nobody is doing anything. They'd rather give up and call it a lost cause than improve the situation.

      There *ARE* decent fixes to this. Not perfect--yes, somebody could always replace my entire CPU. She wrote it trying to get people to use TPM for the one thing it's actually good for, and to encourage dual factor authentication by releasing a tool that *easily* exploits the problem. Sometimes in order to get a problem fixed--you've gotta release the attack.

    4. Re:Why are we talking about this? by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1

      I'm curious of what are you calling "software encryption" . As opposed to what? Do you know about some computer that has some form of encryption that is totally hardware based, so much that the CPU even doesn't know that is there? I never heard of that.

    5. Re:Why are we talking about this? by dachshund · · Score: 1

      I was referring to encrypted hard drives, where the encryption and key storage is entirely performed in hardware (e.g. this). (Yes, the "hardware" is probably itself a microcontroller running software, but the point here is that the key is stored on the hard drive itself, not in the main computer's RAM). Even these drives are vulnerable to an evil bootloader, but at least the key isn't floating around in RAM as it must be for a software disk encryption solution.

  26. This is why by cmdr_tofu · · Score: 1

    I do an md5checksum of grub and /boot from a USB key which on me at all times every time I boot my computer. Seriously, I don't know of any other foolproof way to defend against this. I do know where my encrypted laptop hard drive is most of the time.

    1. Re:This is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      replace computer bios with one that outputs fake data to the screen

    2. Re:This is why by wurp · · Score: 1

      The easiest, most foolproof way for someone determined to scam your password is to put a keylogger physically inline with your keyboard. I suspect one could be made small enough to fit inside the connector.

      If the device you use to access your encrypted drive is accessible for 10 minutes, you are vulnerable. It doesn't matter what the software is or how you use *that device* to validate anything.

  27. TPM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  28. Best security by Luxifer · · Score: 0, Troll

    The best security is to pick an obscure poison. Take it in small doses until you're immune. Coat the keyboard with it. Better yet, get a keyboard that automatically dispenses the poison.
    Evil maid now equals dead maid.

    My only problem is, now that the maid is dead, who's gonna hide the body?

    1. Re:Best security by Carcass666 · · Score: 1

      Ah... iocane powder

  29. Put the boot loader on a stick! by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 1

    If you are really a paranoid traveler, then you should put the bootloader on a stick (and possibly one half of the key too, the other in your head).

    I read a description somewhere how to make it work best. Install a bare bone windows OS on one partition, put on some icons for crap so it does not look too shrink wrapped. Put your real OS (preferably not a Windows one, as this would make security mostly futile anyway) on a second partition.

    Then make your stick the primary boot medium, hdd the second one. Maid comes in and finds just a diversion OS with no data to compromise (as this boots when the stick is not inserted). Even if the bootloader is played with, once you put in your stick and boot up, your real and encrypted OS will be booted from stick, which had no manipulation what so ever.

    Add some individual touch to make it harder to compromise.

    You also evade stupid border guards stupid questions this way, as your real OS stays kind of camouflaged (well, not really, but more than enough for people with no clue).

    And be careful of those flashable BIOS'es.

  30. Look at the big picture by mathimus1863 · · Score: 1

    To say that this is pointless because "no one" would ever be the target of such an attack, is just silly.

    99.99999% of people would never be targeted by this kind of attack. But the 0.00001% for whom it matters (CIA operatives, for instance), it's in everyone's best interest that such attacks are known about and avoided (or at least for the government who is sponsoring the operative). A million unimportant, paranoid nerds getting hacked b/c they did full-disk encryption improperly is nothing compared to a single operative being discovered in the field, and dissolving a political landscape, or a source of critical intelligence that keeps us safe.

    Luckily, we have millions of paranoid nerds to find these flaws so that the people who really do need it are better prepared.

  31. TrueCrypt can fingerprint encrypted volume by TechForensics · · Score: 1

    This means on boot a checker runs from *inside the encrypted volume* to see if anything has changed. It should notice if the bootloader no longer checksums the same (so far as I understand).

    --
    Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
    1. Re:TrueCrypt can fingerprint encrypted volume by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      "This means on boot a checker runs from *inside the encrypted volume* to see if anything has changed."

      Unless the hacked bootloader deletes or disables the fingerprint checker? Seriously, I can't see how verifying the bootloader *AFTER* you've already provided the password/key to decrypt the volume, offers you *any* protection? At that point, it's pretty much game over, no?

  32. MITM? by sootman · · Score: 1

    So this could be considered a type of maid-in-the-middle attack?

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    1. Re:MITM? by GPLDAN · · Score: 1

      Mmmmmm..... maid sandwich.

  33. And how exactly... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    ...will she install that bootloader, when there in no BIOS, but an encrypted coreboot or EFI system, that is protected against meddling with, by a TPM (chip) under YOUR control? (Something possible with the Lenovo ThinkPads for example. In which case it is a good concept, as opposed to what the media companies planned to do with it.)

    Hardware security against hardware meddling. Simple as that.

    Now the next level would be physically modifying the motherboard. But even against that you can protect yourself. By using the TPM to check the trustworthiness of the components, encrypting bus communication, etc. (Which the TPM platform, if I'm correct, is doing already) and using a hardware dongle key, that is itself encrypted. That you both take with you. Perhaps only working with a class 3 USB dongle (included key reader, keypad and display).

    I want to see you crack that system then. ^^

    Of course, in reality, they will simply give you a good old-fashioned beating (or modern waterboarding), until you tell them the password and give them the key and class 3 device.
    Which will only help them, if you did not destroy the key dongle beforehand. (Or had it split, and one of the parts is out of reach.) But the beating will always be yours to take. ^^

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:And how exactly... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Could you please point me to a subnotebook with TPM and which is compatible with coreboot? As in, I can already use grub as a coreboot payload by doing nothing but compiling.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:And how exactly... by BranMan · · Score: 1

      No, the whole point of all this was to be able to compromise your data WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING IT. Beating a key out of you kind of defeats that purpose. Otherwise, why not just have a maid deliver towels (so they can verify you are on your laptop), then break in with guns and take it - long AFTER you've decrypted the volumes they want? I've worked on things classified Secret and Top Secret. Everyone knows they cannot truly protect such data - but they take great pains to KNOW when it may have been leaked or stolen. Once you know that, you can defuse most of the damage. The real trick is to steal it without anyone knowing.

    3. Re:And how exactly... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      That you [...] take with you.

      That's what I meant. I deleted a sentence after previewing, and forgot to take the "both" out.

      Oh, and of course, if someone kicks in the door while you are using the system, you have to rip out the card, lock the system down, and destroy the card, to be actually secure. (The full device-to-device encryption protects against RAM and cache attacks, if it's properly done (= the RAM and cache contents always being encrypted.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    4. Re:And how exactly... by russotto · · Score: 1

      ...will she install that bootloader, when there in no BIOS, but an encrypted coreboot or EFI system, that is protected against meddling with, by a TPM (chip) under YOUR control? (Something possible with the Lenovo ThinkPads for example. In which case it is a good concept, as opposed to what the media companies planned to do with it.)

      I think you're right that Trusted Computing could secure against this attack. But an "evil maid" need not mess around with bootloaders. She'll install a hardware keylogger. Or maybe a few microphones... I'll bet it's possible for the TLAs to figure out what you're typing from the sound recorded from several microphones, plus they get your conversations as well.

    5. Re:And how exactly... by puthan · · Score: 1

      With hardware made mostly in China, how do you know the TPM chip does not have a back door?

    6. Re:And how exactly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, let's assume she cannot blackmail you so that nobody ever knows your little secret.
      She has access to your fucking room, dude. She can drug you after you have gone to bed and do the deed while you sleep peacefully.

    7. Re:And how exactly... by mlts · · Score: 1

      If physical security on TPM chips even becomes more than a slight issue, most likely what will happen is that the TPM functionality will move from today's existing chip that doesn't have physical protection, to chips which are epoxy potted onto motherboards (like any video chips that deal with Blu-Ray. The spec requires the maker to drop a blob on epoxy on them to prevent reverse engineering). For high security, I'm sure that the TPM and critical parts of the machine's BIOS will be moved into a metal security container with epoxy potting, as well as multiple tamper mechanisms that will zero out the contents should the case be breached, similar to how smart cards and PCI based key storage modules work today.

    8. Re:And how exactly... by mlts · · Score: 1

      Most of the HP business class subnotebooks (HP EliteBook 2730p is one, there are others) have TPM functionality built in. Not all have the functionality built in, and in general, you will be paying a business class price for the security.

      It is worth it though. Mainly because you can just set BitLocker (making sure the recovery key is stored somewhere safe) and essentially forget you have hard disk encryption present.

      Not just BitLocker works with TPM chips for security software. I know that PGP's WDE product works as well, and for some people that don't want to run Vista or Windows 7, they can get similar protection from tampering by using PGP and the onboard TPM.

    9. Re:And how exactly... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Most of the HP business class subnotebooks (HP EliteBook 2730p is one, there are others) have TPM functionality built in. Not all have the functionality built in, and in general, you will be paying a business class price for the security.

      AFAIK coreboot works on none of them. Also, I just sold an HP EliteBook 8730w (which had the TPM) and it was a massive PITA. It was a replacement (literally days on the phone with HP) for an earlier EliteBook (I forget the number now thank god but it was a core duo with quadro, 17") which was a complete lemon. HP: NEVER AGAIN.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:And how exactly... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Dell Vostro 1220 can have drive encryption and TPM configured for delivery.

    11. Re:And how exactly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 1) Boot Linux distro from CD into RAM completely, with no hard drive attached to machine
      Step 2) Remove battery from laptop
      Step 3) Store everything on remote b0xen using VPN

  34. this is old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is really old news and too many windows 7 fanboys are turning a blind eye to it as well..

    I'll be yelling at the walls for a long time to come just so self absorbed supposed
    'superior tech' morons can catch up to the obvious..
    Paranoid security people like myself will always be
    of value, but when you asshats don't listen to us, the joke is on YOU!!

    The rest of the lamers
    can fade away in the background for all I care, fruity asshat fanboys
    and pretend security 'know it all's' suck!! as usual..

    1. Re:this is old news by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

      Paranoid security people like you normally get chewed up and spat out by knowledgeable security people like me.

      As someone who works as a security consultant for a hardware vendor, I meet you types on my customer sites every day of my life. You're the arrogant, mouthy type of security person that I find it very easy to make look like the total idiot you are.

      I work with great security people both within my company and with my clients - these are people that listen to others, contribute their knowledge and learn something new every day.

      You are just a walking mouth who has elevated himself to his own little throne - I'm so pleased you're an AC because I'm not sure I'd like you very much if I actually knew you.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  35. Bitlocker? by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 3, Informative

    Bullshit.

    The bootloader is signed. Use this in combination with the TPM chip (embedded smartcard) on your laptop - AS SPECIFIED BY THE GUIDANCE - and use a PIN. There's no loading the disk or getting at the data without cracking AES. At least once.

    So... Start your engines.

    --
    "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    1. Re:Bitlocker? by mlts · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The best BitLocker protection is a combination of PIN + TPM + USB flash drive. This way, if a thief rips off your laptop, but you have your USB flash drive with you (either in your wallet, around the neck, or on a keychain), you are pretty much assured that they will not have access to data, no matter what they try.

      For additional protection since Windows 7 has been released to everyone, perhaps consider BitLocker To Go for all external drives. With this, you can encrypt your external disks using (I hope) a decent passphrase, have the drives available for mounting automatically, and save the recovery volume key offsite somewhere secure.

    2. Re:Bitlocker? by smallfries · · Score: 1

      No. If you don't have physical security then you have nothing, and you can't ever get around that fact.

      In your example temporary access to the laptop would allow removal of the TPM, replacement with a dummy, and then execution of the Evil Maid attack.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    3. Re:Bitlocker? by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you lose the TPM, you aren't going to be able to unencrypt the drive.

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    4. Re:Bitlocker? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      Moving chips on the motherboard takes substantially longer than sticking a CD in the computer and running a script. The fastest attack i can think of is
      1) boot alternate media and get mobo details (2 min attack)
      2) clone mobo details
      3) replace entire mobo (15min?)
      4) ???
      5) profit

      All of which ignores a hw based keylogger, which has always meant physical security was #1, the point of these attacks is to make the attacks easier. A well designed system will reduce the size of the object which must be physically secured, for example a conversation with a memory pen, before the memory pen releases the HDD key, reduces what you need to secure at all times to just the USB key (and even temporary loss of the USB key is hard to exploit in a well designed system), such a system can even protect against HW attacks in the pc, It is much more practical to expect people to secure their USB keys like usual keys than to keep a laptop on them at all.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    5. Re:Bitlocker? by fx242 · · Score: 1

      How do you replace a TPM with a dummy one? Do you realize that not even with physical access you can extract the TPM keys stored inside a tamper evident/resistant chip that is used to sign the bootloader/etc ...? TL

    6. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your wallet?

    7. Re:Bitlocker? by CaptainJeff · · Score: 1

      The TPM contains the encryption keys used to protect the drive. Remove the TPM, remove the keys and the computer cannot decrypt the drive and therefore cannot run.

    8. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small USB flash drives which are barely bigger than the slot they go into are commonplace. It isn't hard to slide something about the size of a postage stamp into a card compartment of a wallet.

      A keychain isn't too farfetched either. http://www.lacie.com/us/products/range.htm?id=10052 is a good example, if you want true "USB key" functionality.

    9. Re:Bitlocker? by mlts · · Score: 1

      The TPM is essentially a smart card. It stores the decryption key until asked for it, and the values match. (Technically this is a bit more complicated because on bootup the TPM state is reset, and each part of the boot process scans the next part, passes the cryptographic hash to the TPM, and the TPM then hashes the hold and new parts for a value, and this process of adding and rehashing repeats until the TPM is asked for the key.)

      If someone yanks the TPM (some PC motherboards have the chip on a daughter card), then there is no usable key to use for decryption (barring access to recovery media, rubber hoses, or another way to find the key).

    10. Re:Bitlocker? by Stu101 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I like the theory. However one thing to bear in mind is that the integrity of Bitlocker itself is questionable. I know for a *FACT* that "3 letter agencies" have backdoor keys. Ask any IT forensics person. Microsoft even have closed, invite only sessions for enforcement agencies to show them how to bypass bitlocker security.

      That in itself means that the government/big brother is guarenteed to be able to bypass MS based secruity. Ask yourself this, can you see Osama Bin laden using bitlocker to protect his stuff ?

      Take this further, do you want the government to have access to your files, just a quick phone call to MS and wham, all your shit laid bare.

      --
      http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
    11. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      + TPM + USB flash drive

      Wheee! Not 1, not 2 but 3 factor authentication courtesy of the checkboxes sold with every copy of Windows 7. Of course, has bitlocker been independently verified not to have a backdoor? Hmm? If your motherboard crashes and the TPM chip goes pfft, is there a way to recover the drive? Hmmm? How much do you have to pay to get this protection?

      There is a better way that addresses all of these issues and uses industry standard encryption algorithms and you don't even have to trust anyone at all if there is a backdoor, you can see for yourself! Tada!

      Without walls... Who needs Windows?

    12. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is true in theory. Except for one thing: If (and I'm stating if here) a BitLocker backdoor were found, and convincing evidence made public (no [citation needed] stuff, but actual hard code) that Bitlocker is untrustworthy, there would be a furor on every single technical forum lashing Microsoft that would make the noise that was made when the NSAKey label was found in NT4 be a drop in the bucket. Businesses would flee Microsoft in droves. Microsoft knows this, and would not risk their business over a single government's demands. A true backdoor that was hidden, I seriously doubt is present in BitLocker. In face, one of the developers of this actually said "over my dead body" when referring to being asked to put backdoors in the product.

      Even if Microsoft did have backdoors into BitLocker (and this is pure conjecture), they could not use them for anything but the most sensitive things without the beans being spilled. This is an argument that has been used against PGP, OS X, TrueCrypt, the Linux kernel, and almost any security product, the "there is a back door knowingly planted somewhere". However, should this backdoor ever be used, the product would in a couple days be in the ashbin of history. So, even if (Bog forbid) there was a backdoor in the product, it could never ever be used for anything except that one ticking time bomb case (which happens *far* less in reality than the movies.)

      This doesn't mean that there are not known ways to bypass BitLocker. For example, every forensics team worth their salt knows to grab any USB flash drives laying around when executing a search, image them using a hardware write blocker (no write blocker -- whups, fruit from poisonous tree), and then look for .BEK files that might allow for a drive to be decrypted. Of course, using a lame password as a key protector with BitLocker To Go may cause compromise.

      So, I'm pretty sure that anything I might be dealing with data-wise is going to be safe on a BitLocker protected system, not factoring in other attacks (reading RAM via IEEE1394, rubber hose, browser holes, network service stuff, bribes, compromise of recovery medium, etc.)

      Lastly, BitLocker is a security utility. It doesn't solve every problem. You use it as a part of a security gestalt policy to protect your data. No security product is a magic wand. You can't just turn on BitLocker and assume your stuff is 100% secure. You have to keep with the times.

    13. Re:Bitlocker? by afidel · · Score: 1

      Well, there is one known vulnerability, the bus between the TPM chip and the BIOS is unencrypted so you could in theory tap that bus and recover the keys after a successful login.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    14. Re:Bitlocker? by mlts · · Score: 1

      When configuring BitLocker to encrypt, unless you do it from the manage-bde utility (a .wsf script in Vista/Windows Server 2008, and an executable in Windows 7/Windows Server 2008 R2), BitLocker will demand that you save a copy of the volume recovery key to non encrypted media. I personally save it to a mounted TrueCrypt volume on a removable drive, and in a password manager on a non connected PDA. This way, should the TPM not work the way it should, all it takes is opening my PDA, typing in the code, getting into Windows, and disabling the TPM key protector until I find out why the TPM went on vacation.

      Also, this is a Windows solution. It would be nice to see RedHat and other distro makers use LUKS and a TPM to have similar functionality, but as of now, there are some projects in alpha that one can look at.

      This is definitely an itch that someone should scratch on Linux/BSD/OS X, and other places. It would help security of Linux distros immensely. The TPM 1.2 spec is a standard that requires no drivers either.

    15. Re:Bitlocker? by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 1

      I think your statement is true, if provided the modifier: If you don't have physical security, AND YOUR ATTACKER HAS A MAGICAL ACCESS TO AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME, then you have nothing, and you can't ever get around that fact.

      Look. Unattended physical access by the "Evil Maid" is a security risk - I will warrant you. She can steal the laptop with BitLocker, and reformat it with a new OS.

      I don't see why you want to argue the more arcane aspects of physical security by misunderstanding the role of a TPM in encryption, when the blatant, obvious and probable are staring you in the face!

      In fact, Joanna has fallen into the same error - improbable scenario and attack. Anyone with the motivation to place a Maid in your hotel to get at your data, is just as motivated and funded to get a sysadmin in your IT dept., where the vectors and opportunities to intercept your data are exponentially more plausible and rewarding.

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    16. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know for a *FACT* that "3 letter agencies" have backdoor keys. Ask any IT forensics person.

      That's funny. I don't think you need to invoke "3 letter agencies" for scare tactics. Microsoft's own documentation makes reference to central key servers and separate Volume Encryption Keys vs. Volume Master Keys.

      Personally, I wouldn't trust any Win7 box on a corporate network, even without "backdoors".

      BTW, they claim standard AES 128 or 256. I would think it would be trivial for someone reasonably skilled in the art (not me) to verify the AES encryption. Then the only thing that would be suspect would be the key generation itself.

    17. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are kidding? When 80% of business have a major portion of there systems infected you think they'd leave because of a back door built-in for the US government. I doubt it. They are already too stupid to move from MS products.

    18. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How DARE Microsoft build in a way for domain joined systems to have their data recovered using physically secure servers. The point of Bitlocker is not to prevent corporate IT from getting to data on your corporate laptop when you forget your password, it's to protect it against theft/loss. If you don't have a central key server, then it really is gone forever.

      There are no back doors in bitlocker. The FUD being spread on Slashdot, right now, is unbelievable. It's like you wake up in the morning, look at yourself in the mirror and ask "What kind of rancid lie about Windows can I spread today?"

    19. Re:Bitlocker? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 0, Troll

      This is one of the reasons I've always supported trusted computing -- even though many other F/OSS people see it as evil. Trusted computing lets me have some control over what runs on my own hardware, and helps to prevent against this type of attack vector.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    20. Re:Bitlocker? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      As you suggested, I've always understood that the easiest thing to do in these cases is to use a perfectly valid and strong algorithm for your encryption, etc. but to use less-than-secure keys.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    21. Re:Bitlocker? by cbhacking · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As somebody who actually worked on BitLocker during an internship at MS, that's bullshit. I was working directly with the metadata and its parser, including the recovery keys. There was absolutely no "TLA Agency" recovery key. The master key for each volume is encrypted and stored on the volume itself (and each volume has a unique key). This is exactly the key used to decrypt the drive, and is never stored in plaintext anywhere. How do you get around this?

      You can't store a recovery key for each volume in some secret database - the master keys, and their encryption keys, are unique.
      You can't store a secret recovery key on the volume - it would have shown up when the disk was accessed at block device level.
      There are probably plenty of other ideas that don't work, but I assure you, there aren't any that do. BitLocker was extensively examined by crypto experts, and no backdoors or methods to break it were discovered.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    22. Re:Bitlocker? by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      The signing of the bootloader is irrelevant, but you are nonetheless correct. BitLocker already has a mechanism to defeat this attack, using the TPM.

      One mechanism of the TPM is storing a running checksum of all instructions that pass through the CPU. When the BitLocker decryption filter starts, this checksum is retrieved and used as part of a recovery key. If the instructions have changed (for example, if thbootloader was updated, edited, or replaced) then the TPM's value will be incorrect and the recovery key will not be available.

      Now, supposing somebody has done this to your laptop, you could enter the manual recovery key (an AES key that can be used to retrieve the master key, used as a last-ditch recovery technique) and the compromised bootloader would record it. However, if you haven't messed with your bootloader, the fact that the normal unlock failed should be a red flag, and hopefully you wouldn't try to enter the manual recovery key and then leave the device in an unsecured location again. Indeed, the best bet would be to replace the original bootloader and try again (although you'd have to suspect such an attack to have any reason to try this).

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    23. Re:Bitlocker? by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If your motherboard crashes and the TPM chip goes pfft, is there a way to recover the drive?

      And if your hard drive head crashes and physically destroys your platters if there a way to recover the drive? If you laptop is run over by a steam roller is there a way to recover the drive? If you laptop is stolen is there a way to recover the drive?

      Shit happens. If you don't have up to date backups then you're an idiot and deserve to lose your data, plain and simple.

    24. Re:Bitlocker? by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      "TLA Agency"

      I never heard of them, what do they do? Are the the ones that came up with "PIN Numbers" by any chance?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    25. Re:Bitlocker? by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      What I'm wondering is if there's a way to have the TPM chip sign the bootloader so you know if it has changed? Not encrypting it, just warning you if it changed, because if my motherboard fries I'd like to keep my data. It would be pretty useful, since presumably I'd know if I'd changed my motherboard.

    26. Re:Bitlocker? by mlts · · Score: 1

      The TPM really doesn't actively encrypt. It never is an active part of the boot process. All it does it get reset on boot, get cryptographic hashes passed to it periodically, then either unseal the key or give the middle finger for the request.. In theory, it could be used to check if a machine was tampered with by asking for the sealed key, and if the TPM wouldn't give it up on boot, then print out that something, somewhere, along the boot path got modified.

      However, without encryption of vital data to prevent the booting from completing no matter how bongoed the boot loader and kernel end up, an attacker could just have the bootloader say that the machine always passes the test.

      If you want as minimal encryption as possible, you likely are best served by having / encrypted, so the boot process would continue to the point of passing code, then the moment of truth would be if the machine gets to a multi user mode, versus hanging during the init process and asking for the filesystem's recovery key.

    27. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TLA = Three Letter Acronym.

    28. Re:Bitlocker? by KillShill · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that it's only just Micro$oft's products that have back doors?

      Do you really think tens of millions of O$X systems have no "entrance for 3 letter agencies"? Wasn't RMS saying this just a few weeks ago? He was forced to apologize but he was absolutely right. Commercial corporations are absolutely required to build in back doors in all their products.

      Any software that is closed source is 100% assured to have anti-consumer chicanery going on.

      But here's something you don't often hear: even Linux systems can harbor back doors... remember the obfuscated C contest? Imagine having to find that one line of code in the tens of millions of lines of a modern linux system. Code can easily be concealed from its true motive.

      No one can be 100% sure that there is no back doors in their systems.

      I remember reading a few months ago about an organization that was very compartmentalized, where each division had very little knowledge about what the others were doing. And 1 employee was adding a secret back door at the behest of his employer. No one would be the wiser.

      Modern CPUs have certain undocumented features... it's very easy for encryption to be defective by design. Your local police dept won't know how to take advantage for it but you can bet those agencies can.

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
    29. Re:Bitlocker? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      "there would be a furor on every single technical forum lashing Microsoft that would make the noise that was made when the NSAKey label was found in NT4 be a drop in the bucket. "
      Nobody cares. You get the lunch with the MS sales rep and some good back of the napkin numbers for the upgrades, thats all that matters
      MS will tell you with a straight face that your data is secure.
      Whats a corp to do? All their just in time, billing, admin, production, shipping ect is locked into MS only software.
      Govs trusted crypto AG, corps upgrade to MS, power companies use MS front ends ect.
      The history of US gov letting strong encryption out is not good.
      Their digital telco system is part of the NSA/??? from day one.
      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/10/att-doj-foia/
      http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2007/11/securitymatters_1115
      The idea that Apple or MS could ship anything without a backdoor just does not add up historically, from telegrams to sat links to popular search engines the US gov has been directly involved or provided seed money.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK
      If a dev in Apple or MS does not get with the backdoor idea, they are replaced, promoted or retire.
      Any chatter about BitLocker would be lost in "outrageous conspiracy theories" about NSAKeys in NT4
      Nobody working in Apple or MS could publish a book on the fact as they would be reported by a publishers legal department soon after submitting a draft. The US gov would visit the author.
      Publish outside the US and the US gov would hire some one to visit author and the publisher.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    30. Re:Bitlocker? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      "extensively examined by crypto experts"
      Trained in the USA? Show any interest in advanced crypto math in the USA and the NSA grooms, says hi, watches and profiles.
      Get anywhere of interest eg Apple or MS and your part of the system or moved on.
      All the NSA needs is a few trusted insiders to sign off on the code and outsiders can test and poke all they like.
      Once the source code is sealed and shipped, nobody will know.
      Think back to Crypto AG, lots of crypto experts looked at that kit, but diplomatic code was still leaking to the press in near real time.
      As Enron put on a 'trading' show for investors and the US gov, I am sure MS/Apple ect can put on a "cryptographic" show for interns, in house developers and "crypto experts".

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    31. Re:Bitlocker? by lsatenstein · · Score: 0

      look at the Eclipse Product (www.itbms.biz)

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    32. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, no shit, numbnuts. But why compound your chances of disaster with a TPM chip? A million things could go wrong with that motherboard rendering that chip useless. A fucking cap could get hot and dry out. And you are fucked. You and the moron that modded you up are both idiots.

    33. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PGP and Aladdin eTokens support similar functionality.

    34. Re:Bitlocker? by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Disaster? Fucked? It's called a BACKUP. If there's ANY chance of a serious disaster from losing your machine then you've already failed. It should be a minor inconvenience and that's it.

      Back to the topic at hand. Obviously anyone who is paranoid enough about their data to use such systems considers the slightly lower chance of having their data compromised to be much more important than the slightly higher chance of losing, at most, a day of work.

    35. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen, I'm gone 3 weeks out of the month on business. As a matter of fact, I'm traveling right now. I carry 2 laptops both with full disk encryption courtesy of LUKS and DM-CRYPT. Number 1, I would never use closed source encryption technology. I know for a fact that MS has a backdoor for Bitlocker. Number 2, if one of my laptops takes a shit on anything other than the HDD, I just pull the drive out, put it in the other laptop and keep on rolling. If I were depending on a TPM chip for security, I wouldn't be able to do that. I need that flexibility. Every hour of downtime costs me money. Why tie myself in knots with something that for my purposes isn't going to give me any real increase in security. That was my original point. The whole TPM thing is nothing but checkbox marketing nonsense for most people. Full disk encryption, with a USB drive for 2 factor authentication is iron clad. Do I backup? Of course. But not every minute of every day. I deal with the real world not some pie in the sky fantasy like what you must be thinking about.

    36. Re:Bitlocker? by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Number 1, I would never use closed source encryption technology. I know for a fact that MS has a backdoor for Bitlocker.

      Your own delusions don't count as fact. Amusing how everyone who says this somehow fails to post any actual facts to back up their claims.

      Full disk encryption, with a USB drive for 2 factor authentication is iron clad.

      Given that the whole point of the article we're posting comments under is that full disk encryption is NOT ironclad I can't do anything but laugh.

      I need that flexibility. Every hour of downtime costs me money. Why tie myself in knots with something that for my purposes isn't going to give me any real increase in security. That was my original point.

      There's a big difference between something not being useful for you, not being useful to the average person and not being useful for anyone. Apparently you're incapable of understanding the distinction or that not everyone is identical to you or has the exact same needs as you.

      I deal with the real world not some pie in the sky fantasy like what you must be thinking about.

      Judging by your comments it's you who seems to be living in a fantasy world.

    37. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your own delusions don't count as fact. Amusing how everyone who says this somehow fails to post any actual facts to back up their claims.

      It's not my job to educate you, son. Only to point out your blatant bullshit so others don't get duped by it. If you are too stupid to do the research to find out for yourself, don't expect me to do it for you.

      Given that the whole point of the article we're posting comments under is that full disk encryption is NOT ironclad I can't do anything but laugh.

      It's all in the implementation, noob. Hint: the boot loader is on said USB drive. Hence, the attack mentioned in the article doesn't work. Why don't you learn something about what the hell you are talking about before trying to argue with grown folks next time.

      There's a big difference between something not being useful for you, not being useful to the average person and not being useful for anyone. Apparently you're incapable of understanding the distinction or that not everyone is identical to you or has the exact same needs as you.

      You dumbass, I'm out in the real doing real work with sensitive information and I do this all day everyday. I've had a laptop stolen while traveling. They didn't get shit but a shiny brick. You'd better fucking believe it's all about me.

      Judging by your comments it's you who seems to be living in a fantasy world.

      *Looks around at his hotel room*
      This doesn't look like a fantasy world to me. Looks a whole lot like the real world, actually. Grow up kid.

    38. Re:Bitlocker? by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't a USB logger be able to sniff both the password and the key on the USB key? whilst you might need one for every port, as I understand it, they are, or at least can be, invisible to the TPM hardware check.

    39. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Traditionally TLA = Three Letter Agency.

    40. Re:Bitlocker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because 3-letter-agencies are going to let an intern play with the highly sensitive back-door.

    41. Re:Bitlocker? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying i have all the answers but:
      Conversation checks hardware (obviously can't catch all sniffers)
      Shows a private prompt and asks for a password to confirm user
      Releases one-time key* that allows CPU to decode the keyring (that sits on the HDD/TPM/both)

      I suppose if you sniffed USB+HDD/TPM you could have enough to decode the key yourself, however if you spread the keys around the drive and only unlock sections of the drive as required it the attacker will have to store a HDDs worth of data in order to get the keys. It really comes down to implementation but i think most attacks can be countered (possibly even CPU rootkits).

      *A one-time key may not be feasible, but if keys are small and storage you give them big you could have tousands preloaded on the pen, so it would be years before a key can be reused (at 3 boots per day, 10k gives you a 10 year years)

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    42. Re:Bitlocker? by smallfries · · Score: 1

      OK. Good correction, time is an important factor.

      But the TPM itself has to be trusted - there is no way to verify it. Perhaps the "Evil Maid" isn't that skilled with a soldering iron, but this is a real attack vector. In the UK they decided not to verify the card readers for Chip'n'PIN and as a result attacks using fake readers started to spring up.

      Removing the TPM and replacing it with a dummy would allow the introduction of the evil firmware. Whether or not the Maid could accomplish that task while you're in the bathroom is up for debate.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    43. Re:Bitlocker? by smallfries · · Score: 1

      My memory of how a TPM works is probably off, but if I remember correctly the system passes a hash of the firmware to the TPM, which returns a key to open the system. There is still a physical component that you trust that hashes the firmware before execution. The "dummy" TPM intercepts it, passes on the hash of the real firmware, and then proceeds with the boot.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
  36. If someone can break in to your hotel room at will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    you have to assume that they can design a scenario to separate you from your bags for an hour. If you're important enough for someone to devote these kinds of resources to get information from you, you're already boned. This whole thought exercise is pretty silly.

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. Black bag job by russotto · · Score: 1

    This isn't a new attack; it's just a specific variant of a "black bag" job; same idea as installing a hardware keylogger. I think there's likely a way to use Trusted Computing to defeat this particular variant, basically the TCM wouldn't give out keys to an untrusted bootloader.

    1. Re:Black bag job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Maid attack is stupid. The maid could set up a radio emitting key-logger or camera in the room and get the password to all the data that much easier. If you used a physical usb key(a counter to the previous attack) she could get it from your clothes while you are showering or sleeping.

      This is assuming the maid cannot put a red hot rod up your ass and have the data and a fun time.

      The obvious solution is to never use hotels.

      Seriously though, very few people would need such expensive measures. If all your data is not belong to them already, it is because they don't have the motivation to even try.

      I should get paid for pointing out obvious things like this or the existence of ceramic knives that don't fire metal detectors. I too can be a Security Guru.

      I wonder where I would have to apply.

  39. Its a plausible attack by interval1066 · · Score: 1

    And for cases where national security is concerned, probably more a likely attack vector than any other. So the likely defense is some kind of boot-time check of the loader's integrity, which is just as possible. For example, a utility to do this on a USB fob. Then of course the you have to remember to take your fob with you...

    --
    Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  40. Missing the point by Tim82 · · Score: 1

    Pretty much all the responses so far completely miss the point.

    I work for a large finiancial institution - one of the biggest. Plenty of folks here have sensitive client information on their laptops, which they take with them on business trips to see clients, technology partners etc. We have some extremely large clients (all the major banks, US and worldwide) and the client information could include contacts, details of trading, holdings in various stocks, etc. This information can be worth millions of dollars, and the company could be fined similar amounts if it was stolen from their posession.

    Most of the employees/managers/sales guys etc that go on business trips are not particularly technically savvy. All they know is that they have their laptop, and it is encrypted, and they have been told that their laptop is safe because the evil h4xx0rz can't decrupt the 124-byte RSM keylock. This will give them a false sense of security, and will leave their laptop in their hotel room, safe in the knowledge that it has a kingston lock on it and no-one can walk off with it.

    The data on some of these machines is valuable enough that people certainly would think about trying to get their hands on it.

    This needs to be a wakeup call to the big banks that they need to educate their staff - simply telling them "your laptop is encrypted, you are safe" is not good enough. They need to keep the machine with them at all times

    All the talk of "boot from liveCD" or BIOS passwords, or hidden TrueCrypt volumes, simply are not feasible on a large corporate scale, and are certainly above your average client portfolio manager.

    1. Re:Missing the point by HikingStick · · Score: 2, Informative

      I worked for a quasi-governmental agency for a number of years. Although we adopted disk encryption, our primary defense was the one you describe: you don't go anywhere without your laptop. That's right--not left in the conference room over lunch, or even unattended in the airport bathrooms. I still can't believe how many brain donors set their laptop bags down near the entrance or the sink and then go do their business. It's either in the stall, over your shoulder, or on the floor against your legs. They were even told not to leave them in their cars if they stopped at the grocery store on the way home (we had one stolen that way during a "3 minute" stop). We even had some good training videos that showed how quickly someone could swap laptop bags (for so long, most of them looked alike), or pop open the bag and replace the laptop with a phone book in under 30 seconds while a speaker was busy talking to guests after a presentation.

      In addition, there were reports that had to be filled out to inform management if a laptop was lost or stolen. There were disclosures to the entities that were supervised. The consequences of losing a laptop were so painful that no one wanted to lose one.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    2. Re:Missing the point by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      How about not putting sensitive data on laptops at all?

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    3. Re:Missing the point by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      That was my preference, but there are some cases where you have no choice but to carry the data on the device, or on removable medaia that most users carry with the device (regardless of policy). Our users often worked in rural areas where Internet connections were not always available. When visiting the sites we oversaw, policy matters often kept our staff from connecting their laptops to the company networks where they were working. Cellular modems helped some (not at all in some areas where there was no data coverage--more than 5 miles off the Interstate in some rurual areas), but most of the tools they used for their jobs required data be imported into a client-side application, and that data needed to be preserved until the work process was done. Then there were their work documents themselves, which would also be considered sensitive data. They could just box up and ship boatloads of documents back to the main office and do more of the work from there, but transporting pacakges carries its own set of risks.

      So, in an ideal world, no sensitive data on laptops would be ideal, but the real world and the ideal world often do not intersect.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  41. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  42. Just use an external boot device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boot from a memory stick, CD, whatever. This way you won't have to run code that wasn't encrypted, from the internal harddrive (i.e. boot loader).

  43. xkcd by f0rtytw0 · · Score: 1

    what is more likely to happen
    http://xkcd.com/538/

    --
    this is the most important sig ever! In your face 446154!
    1. Re:xkcd by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      ..third scenario

          Wipe the laptop and sell it on eBay

          Your data is not important and no-one cares about it ...!

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  44. checksum your bootloader by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As part of my init script, I've hashed the data in my boot partition and I am alerted if there is a change. You should all do the same.

  45. What is the evil maid going to do... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    ...if you locked your computer's screen before you walked away from it? You know, like YOU SHOULD ALWAYS DO?

    The ones that get me are the encrypted disks that unlock themselves (no user supplied password) on boot-up. Don't people realize that they're taping the key underneath the lock in that sort of configuration?

  46. Problem Solved... by Itninja · · Score: 1

    Whenever I travel, I changed my splash screen graphic to a simple red-on-black message that reads:

    "Dear Housekeeping,

    Use of this system is monitored and you intrusion attempt has been reported to the system owner. The time has been recorded and the built-in webcam has taken your picture. Stop now and no charges will be filed."

    Another method would be working for an under-funded government agency (like me). That last time I went to a conference I had to bring a 'company laptop'. Since the system was impressively 'designed for Windows 2000', I just took the battery out of the laptop when I was away from the room (along with the AC adaptor). I doubt anyone could find a retail outlet that sold nearly decade-old laptop batteries. SUck on that super maid spies!

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:Problem Solved... by cpghost · · Score: 1

      A true maid spy always carries a screwdriver^H Multivolt/Multisocket AC adapter around.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  47. Japanese, female by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm imagining a bunch of geeks dressed up in maid outfits.

    As long as they're Japanese and female, that's fine with me:

    http://images.google.com/images?q=maid+cafe
    http://www.google.com/search?q=maid+cafe

  48. What about TrueCrypt? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    What can be done about TrueCrypt? It also "Encrypts an entire partition or storage device such as USB flash drive or hard drive."

  49. more likely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The maid would be more likely to just steal the laptop, especially since most hotels/motels do not (and cannot) guarantee that items will not be stolen from your room. So they disclaim any responsibility for any items left in the rooms. The best security is not let anyone else have physical acess to your computer, and to NOT use any version of Windows!

  50. Remove the hard drive? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    One idea is to take the hard drive out of your laptop and take it with you.

  51. Oh, I am soooooo glad... by X.25 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that I got out of that shithole called 'security world'.

    It was really fun and interesting until 2003, but these days it's a joke.

    Hey, even in year 1997 we all realized that once someone has physical access to your computer - you are fucked.

    And here we are, in year 2009, reading "research" telling us things we all already know.

    Sigh...

    P.S: maid doesn't need to install any fancy shit, a keylogger will do just fine.

    1. Re:Oh, I am soooooo glad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet others in the security business keep peddling full disk encryption as a snake oil solution against physical access.

    2. Re:Oh, I am soooooo glad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I keep hearing this argument...if you have physical access, all bets are off. Well, what the hell else are you using full-disk encryption for? Full-disk encryption isn't going to do anything for you if you get remotely exploited. At this point, full-disk encryption has no credibility as a technology until these issues get addressed.

      And how exactly are you going to install a keylogger on a laptop whose hard drive is completely encrypted, save for the boot sector? What are your options? You could put the keylogger in the boot sector, or in the BIOS, or...wait a minute, this is starting to sound like fancy shit.

    3. Re:Oh, I am soooooo glad... by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1

      Yeah more "marketing' than research. What is she selling?

    4. Re:Oh, I am soooooo glad... by chrb · · Score: 1

      And here we are, in year 2009, reading "research" telling us things we all already know.

      To be fair, Rutkowska does acknowledge this "Q: Is this Evil Maid Attack some l33t new h4ck?
      Nope, the concept behind the Evil Maid Attack is neither new, nor l33t in any way."

  52. Easy Solution by TheTyrannyOfForcedRe · · Score: 1

    Burn the contents of your thumb drive to a business card sized CDROM.

    --
    "Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
  53. Re: Rule 34 by Abreu · · Score: 1

    NO EXCEPTIONS!

    --
    No sig for the moment.
  54. TPM not necisarily evil. by pentalive · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The TPM can be used for good or evil, It all depends on if the owner == the user == the one holding the master key.

    If I own the machine, and I am the user of that machine - I want the master TPM key and the ability to sign stuff for myself.

    1. Re:TPM not necisarily evil. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Call it what you want, but not TPM. TPM is one specific initiative where the master key to all computers is with the illuminati/TPM group.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  55. Quit making me post xkcd by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    http://xkcd.com/538/

    Seriously. If someone wants in your computer, they are getting in. Period. Full stop.

    However:

    A) Likely you and your laptops super secret porn stash are not important enough to bother.
    B) Most people are too stupid to care. 99 times out of 100 your laptop will be stolen, maybe wiped and sold on ebay or equivalent.

  56. evil cook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The evil cook seems much more dangerous. How can I protect myself against him/her?

  57. well, duh! by jipn4 · · Score: 1

    Has Schneier run out of real security problems? Yeah, people with physical access to your hardware can break your encryption. They can put a key logger in your machine. They can bug your keyboard or your hotel room. They can even spread LSD or strychnine on your keyboard. Imagine that!

  58. Man in the Middle of a Two Evil Maid Attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wanna be the man in the middle of a two evil maid attack. Mmmm she can install a high heeled boot loader on my hard drive any time.

  59. GP: bad analogy by wurp · · Score: 1

    Parent: win.

  60. one question by prozaker · · Score: 1

    if the whole disk is encrypted how is the data from the usb stored in the hard drive in the first place?

  61. Physical Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Physical Security can usually mitigate these types of risks. We all know that once an attacker has physical access to a device, all bets are off.

    Lock your server room, lock your office. When in hotels put your laptop in the safe, all hotel rooms I've been to in the U.S. have had a safe.

    Also things like setting the BIOS to boot only from HDD and add a pw to the BIOS can help mitigate this.

  62. Always boot from external media by dotmar · · Score: 1

    If you always boot from an external media, let's say truecrypt bootable CD-R, wouldn't this solve the problem?

    1. Re:Always boot from external media by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If you always boot from an external media, let's say truecrypt bootable CD-R, wouldn't this solve the problem?

      No, this opens you up to the evil maid booting up her favorite LiveCD and rewriting your BIOS from her LiveCD. Most BIOS passwords are still in the smallish range, so it won't take too many attempts to successfully "upgrade" your BIOS to newer Evil Maid(TM) brand keylogging BIOS. Allowing external media booting is generally a bad idea.
      Bonus: if you take the CD with you at all times, then Evil Maid has to hire a thug to beat you up and steal the CD after she gets your encryption passphrase, so you get hurt too.

  63. Mandatory XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://xkcd.com/538/

  64. old truisms never die by fulldecent · · Score: 1

    If someone else has unrestricted physical access to your computer, it's not your computer anymore.

    --

    -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

  65. Leave your computer on while away? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    If it's been rebooted back to the truecrypt passphrase entry, then you know that someone's been monkeying with it. If you notice that your bios password and settings are gone, you can assume the bios ROM has been replaced in hardware. Or if you're sufficiently paranoid, you can assume the same just from the reboot, and junk the computer.

  66. Simple: Boot with USB key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The USB key fits in your pocket and can be kept safe with your other keys. Don't lose your keys; just like a car, if you don't have the key, you can't start it.

    In Linux, this is easily implemented with the bootloader, kernel and initial ramdisk setup/installed on the key. Without the key, the laptop will "hang" at boot and appear to be "broken" by the casual observer.

    This approach seems safer than approaches that require validating the bootloader, kernel and initial ramdisk. YMMV.

  67. cash machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    already been done on cash machines.

  68. bios password by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    been around for decades...

  69. Evil Maid? by PPH · · Score: 1

    This evil maid can do anything she wants on my laptop!

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  70. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  71. Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an example, instead of whole disk encryption, suppose you just want to read some PGP encrypted emails on your coworker's computer, which you are allowed to SSH into (as is the case where I am now). One strategy you might try is to SSH in and use the microphone to listen to your coworker's keystrokes while he is reading his email...

    That scenario is so far fetched that it nearly made me laugh.

    If someone is that paranoid about security (or actually has the need for such) that he needs to have his emails encrypted, on a private machine, to which he has to SSH... It is just absurd to think that the machine has that horrible level of *digital* security. If an account exists only for accessing emails of a specific person, it sure as hell isn't given the rights to access peripheral equipment.

    Thus, policies must be in place -- perhaps that no microphones may be installed on systems dealing with high security information.

    Well, usual tactic - at least in government - is to not have internet access on computers that deal with high security information. Honestly, if you have something truly secret on the machine, it should not be used as a desktop and thus should have nothing to do with microphones in the first place.

    Either don't give examples or give examples that could have something to do with real world. Giving absurd examples is worth nothing.

  72. Something you have, something you know. by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For that matter, the guys video taping the room to sell you and your wife's activities to that voyeur site aims the camera at your laptop, watches your keystrokes, and boom - he has all you passwords you type in. Banking? PayPal? E-Mail.

    You really need to use both a password and a physical device. Such as RSA tokens. My bank offers this for online banking. I have several for different things.

  73. so lock the bootpath by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1

    So lock the boot device to the FDE drive, and lock the hardware to the boot device. You can (could on PPC, still true on Intel?) with Macs. Sure, you can defeat it. But you necessarily can't re-enable it with the same pasword. So if you're this paranoid, lock booting to a particular device, and lock the boot device to full encryption. Check your that your first lock is still in place from time to time, as regularly as you need.

    --

    --
    $tar -xvf .sig.tar
  74. As wikipedia likes to say by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Citation Needed."

    Sorry, but I'll need something more than the word of some random guy on the Internet to believe this for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that such a backdoor would be something security testers would notice.

  75. Devil's Advocate Says Transparency Gets Us What? by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    Do this to 3 or 4 Bobs, and pretty soon you'll have an understanding of the corporate org chart, upcoming projects, and most importantly you'll be able to target your future EvilMaid attacks with pinpoint accuracy.

    Bob's my uncle. Let's play devil's advocate.

    What does the consumer get in terms of higher competition, better products, lower prices, etc. if there was absolute transparency? Imagine a fantasy world where companies bent over because security was found out to have no value so they just gave the entire world access to their entire network?

    Life might just stay the same old, same old for most people. There will be more frantic activity in some quarters as people find new opportunities, and some wackos will try to corner particular markets (but on this new pool table there will be way too many corners available to drop a ball into so that only goes so far). The status quo is that the most challenging problems are still going to be challenging. The most leading edge ideas are still risky. Consumers still have only a limited means of buying while there is far greater variety of classes of items than the number of classes that can be purchased from by the average individual.

    As more and more knowledge becomes available on the Internet, would it even matter in business that some people have secrets? Someone may safeguard a work in progress for a long time until a product is released, only to have a competitor reverse engineer it in far less time.

    Secrecy is valuable for businesses in terms of data integrity. If someone dressed up as a maid or as anyone trusted so that they can mess around with the data, one can tell if the data became corrupted. The cost of having someone copy the data is probably far less than the cost of having to rebuild the data.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  76. Those videos... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  77. Information wants to be free by rwa2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, #1... security measures only serve as deterrents. There will be a way around every security device, the only metric you really need to worry about is whether your:

      (cost to circumvent) / (value of assets + cost to secure)

    ratio is conveniently higher than your neighbors (ha ha, security people hate any mention of "convenience").

    So... #2: by far the best thing you can do is to make sure your assets are relatively worthless compared to what other "target" have. Live a frugal life. Keep offsite backups of your photo albums. Don't keep secrets. And if you do, bury them with enough other crap (maybe using steganography if necessary) to decrease the signal/noise enough to make finding and sorting through the information kind of useless to those not in the know. Maybe you have lots of invalid bank and credit card information lying around. Or put a whole bunch of passwords in your secret password vault, in case it gets compromised (good sites will eventually lock them out for trying them all, and failed attempts will also tip you off and give you time to respond).

    Next measure in the equation is to increase the cost of your perpetrator to circumvent security measures or commit crimes, far above what they'd gain by stealing your assets.

    Cheap deterrents first: live up a flight of stairs... thieves are inherently lazy and will go for the "low hanging fruit" instead of you. In the context of this article, put your laptop up high in a closet or stash it in a drawer... make them search through dirty laundry for it.

    The best society wouldn't need any security at all... if there was enough transparency and free flow of information, all thieves would get caught and reprimanded. So participate in the whole neighborhood watch thing, make sure your perp has to perform his act in very public settings, uniquely tag your stuff, and post warnings to remind them and make them nervous about getting arrested / shot / going to hell etc.

    Finally, we get to the part of the equation where you actually have to actively do something for extra security measures.

    First, make it a habit to perform the rudimentary simple steps of locking your door and always having your keys on you. Deadbolt is much better than the handle switch, and also helps insure that you remembered your keys. I involuntarily lock my house and car doors now, and always brush my pockets with my hands to check that my keys and wallet are still there. At this point, I usually notice within 5 minutes if something's missing.

    Passwords and encryption are just more sophisticated keys and locks. Not uncircumventable, but much better than nothing. But before spending lots of money on more complex 2- & 3-factor keys and locks ... especially those that can completely shoot you in the foot and result in losing all your data... most people invest in other measures ... alarms and security cameras that would increase the chances of the perp getting caught. I haven't seen a whole lot that focuses on this area yet... the phone home mechanisms and stuff like that, but I figure it would be much more productive to concentrate on these kinds of security measures in the near term.

  78. So Encryption does not protect against Trojans ? by lbalbalba · · Score: 1

    Duh. Move along, nothing to see here, news at eleven.

  79. NEWSFLASH..__..__... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This just in...
    Someone discovered how to pick a lock...
    Strangely, people are still locking their doors!

    Seriously, man has created nothing that another man could not destroy or subvert. Get used to it folks.

  80. BIOS Password! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BIOS Password! BIOS Password! BIOS Password!
    What I am trying to tell you all, is that it is critical that your laptop (and even desktops, really) need to have a BIOS password entered so that the evil maid cannot reboot your computer to any external device such as a USB without knowing your BIOS password. So you first configure your BIOS so that no external devices are bootable; then you set the BIOS password to something non-guessable. Even this does not guarantee hacking, because if the thief has long-term access to your laptop, and the willpower, they will open your laptop and disconnect your BIOS settings battery so that your BIOS settings are reset. But, if you are sharp then you will realize upon a reboot or awakening from hibernation that the system is no longer querying you for the password, which means you have been hacked! Then again, a genius thief might have a mock BIOS password query screen, but that starts to enter the realm of paranoia. But . . . am I paranoid *enough*?

  81. No mentions of custom firmware? by jeffliott · · Score: 1

    It might not be easy to prep, but you could have your firmware checksum the bootloader before it executes.

  82. 3 Words... by hofmny · · Score: 2, Informative

    BIOS BOOT PASSWORD

  83. Pathetic attempt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A pathetic attempt to give a cute name - and make it look like original research - to an incredibly simple attack.

    Also, bootloader on USB thumb drive in pocket.
    OR bootloader on USB thumb drive on keychain.
    OR bootloader on USB thumb drive under skin.
    OR bootloader on USB thumb drive in anus.

  84. to keep the content of your netbook/laptop secure by alizard · · Score: 1

    the only confidential content on it should be the crypto key your remote control client uses to access your home/office computer on which the actual confidential information is. Which shouldn't do the aspiring data thief any good minus the password. Carry your portable entertainment content on the computer instead.

    While this means that you don't get access to your own confo information unless you're hooked up to the Net via wifi or 3G wireless dongle, it also means that if you lose your computer, the expensive part is replacing the hardware, not the much more expensive job of attempting to find or recreate the actual data. And data that never was on your computer can't be stolen either by a random thief, the "bad guys", or the Feds when you cross an international border.

  85. No No No! by woolio · · Score: 1

    Are you aware that whole-disk encryption programs encypt a sector (or small group sectors) independently from each other? Plus, these programs are completely independent from file system structure. I would be more concerned about encryption software that worked on a file-by-file basis or was built into the filesystem than the traditional whole-disk encryption.

    Meaning that if you write crap (or have a few bad sectors) to a small (encrypted) block, the rest of the disk is still perfectly readable (and decryptable). There is little difference between crap on an unencrypted disk and crap on an encrypted disk. In either case, crap that takes out the file allocation table will trash everything, otherwise it will only corrupt one or two files...

    I use linux (full-disk) encryption for both my main disk as well as my backups... (There is little point in encrypting the server if the backup is plaintext!)

  86. Hardware security is the answer by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Have a hardware or BIOS-level password. If you dont have the password, you cant even boot the machine on any medium. Combine this with a screen lock (where the screen will lock if the screensaver/blanker activates) and it should protect things. If the bad guy doesn't have the password, they cant unlock the machine. They cant reboot either due to the

    To prevent someone simply opening up the machine and installing a hardware keylogger, fit some sort of sticker that cant easily be forged/replaced and that easily indicates the machine has been opened.

  87. You consparicy nuts are funny by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    You really think the NSA controls all US crypto? Ummm ok, well then lets take a look at a little thing called AES. That stands for Advanced Encryption Standard, and it is the official US encryption standard. The NIST wanted a replacement for the aging Triple DES, and that is what we now call AES. So, how did AES come about? Surely it was some secret project at the NSA that was released with no oversight and made a standard! Actually, not so much. AES was originally called Rijndael and was developed by two Belgian cryptographers, not US citizens or residents. It was chosen in an open competition from a number of other algorithms, including Twofish and RC6.

    It was a completely public and open process. The entire algorithm is an open standard that anyone can examine, and people do. AES is the most tested crypto system the world has ever seen. Crypto experts from all over the world see if they can break it. Though there have been a few attacks that can make minor reductions in the key space, thus far it remains solid and there is no way to recover AES encrypted data until the sun goes dark.

    That is the official, US government chosen and endorsed crypto system. Even the NSA has signed off on it for classified use.

    So that leaves a situation with two possibilities:

    1) The NSA is so far ahead of everyone else in crypto that they can crack AES, and could do so 7 years ago when it was standardized. Not only that, they are so sure that they are the only ones that can do this, they are willing to allow the algorithm to be used to secure critical assets like the US financial system, knowing the vulnerability, which is contrary to their mission. Only mathematicians in the US are smart enough to figure out this break, not in any other country including those like China which have made major crypyanalysis breakthroughs like the MD5 vulnerability.

    or

    2) AES is really very secure, the NSA did an evaluation of it and their experts found what all the other experts in the world did: It is a good crypto system.

    Now which is more likely?

    Also consider that the NSA was involved with the original DES. IBM developed it for civilian use at the request of the government, and the NSA looked over it. One of the things they did was suggest changes to the s-boxes. People theorized this was to weaken the algorithm. However, when differential cryptanalysis was publicly discovered in 1990, it turned out that the s-boxes in DES were very resilient to it, much more so than had they just been random. Turns out the NSA new about differential cryptanalysis and so did the IBM team that made DES. The NSA asked them to keep it a secret at the time. So far from inserting a backdoor, they instead helped IBM ensure it was secure.

    Finally there is the fact that the Windows source code isn't secret. It isn't open, but it isn't secret. Many academic institutions have copies. ASU would be one I know of. So it isn't as though the code is something no one outside MS ever sees. It is out there, many people have had a look.

    So seriously, get off the conspiracy BS.

    1. Re:You consparicy nuts are funny by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Now you want to trust the people who sold Enigma after ww2 to Africa, in the Near East as well as South America for military and diplomatic communication.
      http://www.enigmatec.de/english/home_enigma.shtml
      Where we talking about all US crypto? No, just what ships with Apple and MS, is in use with the general public and of great interest to the NSA, CIA, DIA, FBI, local police.
      An open competition only covers one instance of a selected ideal.
      ie the NSA and IBM can select/product good equipment and keep something under wraps for a few years.
      What ships in Apple or MS is based on trust.
      A few institutions have copies of MS?
      As for "many people have had a look", I would guess many people want to keep their jobs too, or want to keep their clearances for mil/gov contracting.
      All the past can tell us about US crypto efforts is they have a way in via brute force eg ww2 or an insider (cold war) exposing the shipped product.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:You consparicy nuts are funny by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Why would people outside the US care about jobs or clearances from the NSA? That doesn't even begin to make sense. Many of the experts I referred to are not US citizens, don't work for US organizations, and couldn't get a security clearance from the US government even if they wanted to.

      BitLocker is used extensively outside the US too. You think that foreign agencies would be OK with using crypto that they thought the NSA had a back-door in? Or do you just think that they don't have good enough people to find it? Trust me, neither one is true.

      You also really ought to work on the structure of your posts. Your writing is almost as bad as your logic.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    3. Re:You consparicy nuts are funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that I don't believe all of this is true aside, you've chosen some really stupid strawmen to knock down here.

      The NSA is so far ahead of everyone else in crypto that they can crack AES blah blah blah

      "AES" doesn't have a backdoor, just the applications that claim to encrypt your secret bits. The vast majority of them work by creating a Really Strong Key to encrypt your disk then using your passphrase to encrypt the Really Strong Key, and writing this to the disk too. This is a huge selling point for "enterprise" systems, because you can repeat this process for as many passphrases as you want, so your network admin can get the same RSK encrypted with his passphrase, and the vendor can have it encrypted with an emergency passphrase in case everyone forgets theirs, and the CIA can get it encrypted with their secret passphrase. This, incidentally, is how CSS works on DVDs: stacks of keys encrypted over and over with different keys for the various dvd player models out there.

      Finally there is the fact that the Windows source code isn't secret. It isn't open, but it isn't secret. Many academic institutions have copies. ASU would be one I know of. So it isn't as though the code is something no one outside MS ever sees. It is out there, many people have had a look.

      Has anyone compiled the academic source to see if it really does recreate the same executables you get on the CD?