All of the attitudes in this thread illustrate why women don't want to be involved in the industry - from patronzing head-patting, to the outright hostile.
There doesn't have to be a 50/50 split in everything - however, when the discrepancies are startling, they should be examined.
I don't mind so much, being outnumbered. I'm used to gaming circles, where females are decended upon by geeks desperate to meet a girl that they have something in common with. I don't mind so much because I see it changing, every day. But the crap on this thread scare me equally, 'cause for every girl who's willing to put up with the undercurrents of sexism, there's prolly five that will walk away.
Take a look at the posts in this thread. How many of them that are moderated up are from women?
-Noiz
---------
'Utena' Rocks My little World
on
Essential Anime
·
· Score: 1
Revolutionary Girl Utena is available on DVD, but only the first story arc - the warning is - It's addictive. Incredibly, stupidly, wonderfully addictive.
"Piracy is bad," says Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, when asked about the matter. "Of course you should be able to sue over copyrights. The one good lawsuit in the whole Napster case is the one by Metallica: a suit by the actual authors. While it's probably motivated mostly by money, I can still at least hope that there is a strong feeling of morals there, too."
Does ColdFusion have a large enough user base and enough of a community built up around it to merit a workalike implementation, in the face of myriad other solutions?
In Toronto alone, the Cold Fusion User Group has over 800 members, and a regular turnout of 100 - 150 people to meetings.
We had this read to us in Grade Six. In retrospect, it seems pretty weird to me.
I do remember being on the edge of my seat several times, though, and really enjoying it. I don't think it's lost on those who are younger, but I think it warrants a re-read once you've almost forgotten it.
I've played male characters - I enjoy it on occasion due to, yes, the opposite reasons. I -don't- get people hitting on me, or making suggestive comments.
Generally, I've played a male in a MUSH or RPG setting because it worked for the concept - In something like FF 8, it's kinda like you guys playing Tomb Raider - Not much choice. (though I would have liked FF 8 to be all Quistis, all the time....)
I have experienced "getting goodies" in only very few circumstances - EQ, NERO, Live Action RolePlaying in general - however, after playing the same character for three years, being a cute girl didn't stop my getting gacked.
IRL? If you want to consider being asked if 'you need a ride' by random guys at the streetcar stop a bonus, or getting catcalled, or whatever - feel free. IRL, there's not all that many advantages. Especially since there's no rl equivalent to Quake - I might be able to duck better though.
"It's not the same on film is it? I mean, you know it's real, but it's like looking through the lens gives you some sort of protection from what's on the other side."
"I was the one who brought them here. I was the one that said "Let's go to Linux World." I was the one who said that we were not lost. It was my fault, because it was my booth. I am so scared... I don't know what's out there. We are going to die out here - I am so scared!"
... who thinks it's not a bad idea to get these idiots off the net?
Course, here in Canada, we have Hate Crime Legislation - you can be charged for spreading literature, or other propaganda that targets a race or group.
That's why Rev. Phelps did not have an easy time of it here.
When the whole "I will defend to the death your right to say it" thing was said, I don't think anyone had jerks who picket funerals in mind. Or, as we have in Toronto, a heavily fortified house containing one of the primary producers of Neo-Nazi literature in Canada.
I -refuse- to defend someone's right to picket a funeral, or to state that all the world's problems are caused by group X - immigrants, Jews, Gays and Lesbians, whatever.
Think about it for a second. Would you really give up your life to defend these people's right to speak?
I didn't think so.
-Noiz, Who's way uppity first thing in the morning. Must be the tea.
By not offering information about myself, unless asked by someone I would like to carry on communicating with, then ridiculous real world assumptions about my person based on physical presence or shape of eyes vanish.
And in all seriousness, I tend to like that at times too. I rather like that I can be anonymous if I feel like it. I'd just rather that if I decide to say I'm a girl, I don't get slagged, just like I'd rather you didn't if you said you were an Asian man. I know, it happens, but it'd rather it didn't. I'm kinda silly that way.
In other words, it cuts down on a lot of unnecessary and potentially embarassing crap I've had to put up living in small American logger towns, etc. Some people who may appear to be to others racist aren't necessarily - they're just ignorant, and I find there's a line between the two.
There is that. As for the fine line between racism and ignorance - well, yeah, alot of people react badly due to not being exposed to differences. I don't think it really excuses it though - But I'm biased against stupid people - and especially ignorant people, as I tend to think ignorance comes from a lack of effort. Slightly hypocritical, yes, but I'll be the first to admit it.
I'm not too into my gender studies, being a small town boy and all that, but I find that in essence, the current text based medium that comprises most of the web is democratic to all races and genders because when you're just text it's the content of what you say more than anything else.
Yes, as long as you decide to stay anoymous, cause most people will see you as they see themselves - project that generic image onto you - not generally a bad thing - I tend to visualize women the same - Men, less so. I just find that when you say "I'm ______." that blank being woman, Asian, Gay, Straight, whatever - you'll get judged to some extent. And it bugs me. I don't know why I should assume the internet would be more open - but the assumption's there for some reason.
...and if I met the same punk in IRC and were allowed to vent my hostility with just wit and words it would've been better for both of us - I wouldn't have had to get stitches, and he wouldn't have had to been found guilty...
I have no problem with someone giving as good as they get, actually. We've all done it.
Though I suppose fifteen minutes in my infinitely juvenile presence on IRC is enough to assume I'm one of those dorkass twenty five year old boys who spends way too much money on Japanese import Gundam model kits.
When I was on IRC, I think people must have thought I was either 45 or on hallucenogenics most of the time. Who spent way too much money on X-Files junk, and anime stuff. *grin*
I cam into this first thing in the morning - I really wish I hadn't. For all those reasonable people who were disputing the fact that people are dicriminated against online in other articles, please scroll back to see the subject line "Golddigging sluts".
Yes - Women are accepted in technology - I mean, look at Lara Croft, right?
BTW - I'm another woman who likes to game, both with computer games and RPG's. I loved Resident Evil 2. I like shooting things once in awhile. But to be honest, I'd rather play FF 8 and kill things with a gunblade.
The Internet is in most respects genderless. I have no idea whether any of the posters on Slashdot are female, or if they are white or black or Asian. How can I discriminate when I don't have anything at all to go upon?
Yeah, unless you identify yourself. Then it's possible to face discrimination. Then why identify yourself? Because it's who you are. Why hide it?
Your suggestion that there should be an introduction area for new users is absolutely ridiculous. There IS nothing to learn. You read, you post or you don't. It is the job of the newcomer to adapt to his enviroment, not vice versa.
Yeah, god forbid people learn how to do it properly and intelligently first - God forbid that actually -increases- the quality of discussion.
-Noiz, Who thinks that helping newbies makes for a better community.
Initially, I didn't think it made much sense- 4-7 miles isn't much of an audience- But, if your goal *isn't* a world wide, or even a city-wide audience, there's alot that can be done. If used as "neighborhood" radio stations, we might actually *have* neighborhoods again - there'd be something connecting people within the listening area, something tailored to that area. Even if we didn't get to know our neighbors, we'd certainly know what was going on with them - a whole new meaning of 'local' news.
Wow. I get all bouncy just thinking about it.
-Noiz, Who'd like to teach the world to sing, apparently. Shoot.
I'd love to see that. I'd like to see intelligent women honoured. I'd kill to know who's doing what in which field. I'd like to hear all of the things I normally do - just with 'she' instead of 'he' once in awhile.
-Noiz, Who is used to being outnumbered, but would like to not be sometimes.
I wasn't really talking about kids - I'd have to agree with you on that. I meant people that feel intimidated by the process due to lack of education, money, whatever. Might be easier to vote if you just had to click on a button, after someone'd explained how. Moot point, really, I think. Security, as above and below is the issue... And I know - If people are intimidated by voting, wouldn't they be intimidated by computers? *sigh*
Years ago, when I was still reading and posting on usenet as a newbie, I came to realize that hosility is expected if you present an opinion that any random person doesn't like. The first time I got flamed, I responded rationally, and pointed out that about seven new people had likely seen the previous message, and decided never to post. Unfortunately, the attitude prevails - be prpared to put up with crap if you involve yourself in discussion online - and trust me, oftentimes, the women in thier women only enclaves are no better. Sure. We may be breeding jerks. Likely. But as someone who live action roleplays with quite a few of the bright, skilled jerks, I have come to see that in actual social situations, the jerks either have to adapt and become reasonable, or leave, because no one will listen to them, or put up with them.
Carrying your HS persecution like a cross on your back gets to be tiresome after awhile.
-Noiz, Who got off the cross cause someone needed the wood. Two snaps up.
Slashdot Mirror
All of the attitudes in this thread illustrate why women don't want to be involved in the industry - from patronzing head-patting, to the outright hostile.
There doesn't have to be a 50/50 split in everything - however, when the discrepancies are startling, they should be examined.
I don't mind so much, being outnumbered. I'm used to gaming circles, where females are decended upon by geeks desperate to meet a girl that they have something in common with. I don't mind so much because I see it changing, every day. But the crap on this thread scare me equally, 'cause for every girl who's willing to put up with the undercurrents of sexism, there's prolly five that will walk away.
Take a look at the posts in this thread. How many of them that are moderated up are from women?
-Noiz
---------
Revolutionary Girl Utena is available on DVD, but only the first story arc - the warning is - It's addictive. Incredibly, stupidly, wonderfully addictive.
Synopses and character bios at:
http://www.duellists.tj
"We're not allies."
"Then, what are we?"
"We're Duellists."
---------
"Piracy is bad," says Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, when asked about the matter. "Of course you should be able to sue over copyrights. The one good lawsuit in the whole Napster case is the one by Metallica: a suit by the actual authors. While it's probably motivated mostly by money, I can still at least hope that there is a strong feeling of morals there, too."
http://www.msnbc.com/news/410556.asp
---------
Funny how this didn't get posted... "Piracy is bad," says Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, when asked about the matter. "Of course you should be able to sue over copyrights. The one good lawsuit in the whole Napster case is the one by Metallica: a suit by the actual authors. While it's probably motivated mostly by money, I can still at least hope that there is a strong feeling of morals there, too."
---------
Years of oppression to those two things? Gambling fer chrissake. Please. Think about what you just said, and how ridiculous that is.
---------
Dude - If you didn't have a CSIS file before, you do now. Congrats. ;)
---------
Does ColdFusion have a large enough user base and enough of a community built up around it to merit a workalike implementation, in the face of myriad other solutions?
In Toronto alone, the Cold Fusion User Group has over 800 members, and a regular turnout of 100 - 150 people to meetings.
So, I'd say yes.
---------
We had this read to us in Grade Six. In retrospect, it seems pretty weird to me.
I do remember being on the edge of my seat several times, though, and really enjoying it. I don't think it's lost on those who are younger, but I think it warrants a re-read once you've almost forgotten it.
---------
If it won't attack my feet and gnaw on them when I'm trying to sleep. Or leap around the room for no apparent reason.
It's not a *real* cat if you don't stop yelling "Down!" at it.
---------
This only confirms what Torontonians believe -
Toronto's the centre of the universe.
No, really. We *actually* think that way.
However, those U of T guys? *they* think they're hot stuff, with their fancy *magnets* and their campus that's not in the middle of nowhere.
Jerks.
---------
I can almost always tell when men are playing women on MUSHes, and so forth, so I'd agree with you on that.
Yeah. That hot desced bisexual chick whose into doing anything that moves? With three lines of description based around T&A? That's usually your guy.
I think it's kinda funny.
---------
I've played male characters - I enjoy it on occasion due to, yes, the opposite reasons. I -don't- get people hitting on me, or making suggestive comments.
Generally, I've played a male in a MUSH or RPG setting because it worked for the concept - In something like FF 8, it's kinda like you guys playing Tomb Raider - Not much choice. (though I would have liked FF 8 to be all Quistis, all the time....)
I have experienced "getting goodies" in only very few circumstances - EQ, NERO, Live Action RolePlaying in general - however, after playing the same character for three years, being a cute girl didn't stop my getting gacked.
IRL? If you want to consider being asked if 'you need a ride' by random guys at the streetcar stop a bonus, or getting catcalled, or whatever - feel free. IRL, there's not all that many advantages. Especially since there's no rl equivalent to Quake - I might be able to duck better though.
---------
"It's not the same on film is it? I mean, you know it's real, but it's like looking through the lens gives you some sort of protection from what's on the other side."
"I was the one who brought them here. I was the one that said "Let's go to Linux World." I was the one who said that we were not lost. It was my fault, because it was my booth. I am so scared... I don't know what's out there. We are going to die out here - I am so scared!"
---------
They could communicate in their own little language -
_I_ would like to see this happen to the bots on my old channel - named after the Lone Gunmen. I wonder if you can program paranoia?
-Noiz.
---------
Give me an example.
If you can back your statements up, I'll be happy to discuss it.
Even happier if you actually -live- up here.
-Noiz.
---------
Right on.
Especially the flamebait part.
-Noiz,
Who's glad she lives in the Great White North, despite - 35 degree weather.
---------
... who thinks it's not a bad idea to get these idiots off the net?
Course, here in Canada, we have Hate Crime Legislation - you can be charged for spreading literature, or other propaganda that targets a race or group.
That's why Rev. Phelps did not have an easy time of it here.
When the whole "I will defend to the death your right to say it" thing was said, I don't think anyone had jerks who picket funerals in mind. Or, as we have in Toronto, a heavily fortified house containing one of the primary producers of Neo-Nazi literature in Canada.
I -refuse- to defend someone's right to picket a funeral, or to state that all the world's problems are caused by group X - immigrants, Jews, Gays and Lesbians, whatever.
Think about it for a second. Would you really give up your life to defend these people's right to speak?
I didn't think so.
-Noiz,
Who's way uppity first thing in the morning. Must be the tea.
---------
By not offering information about myself, unless asked by someone I would like to carry on communicating with, then ridiculous real world assumptions about my person based on physical presence or shape of eyes vanish.
." that blank being woman, Asian, Gay, Straight, whatever - you'll get judged to some extent. And it bugs me. I don't know why I should assume the internet would be more open - but the assumption's there for some reason.
...and if I met the same punk in IRC and were allowed to vent my hostility with just wit and words it would've been better for both of us - I wouldn't have had to get stitches, and he wouldn't have had to been found guilty...
And in all seriousness, I tend to like that at times too. I rather like that I can be anonymous if I feel like it. I'd just rather that if I decide to say I'm a girl, I don't get slagged, just like I'd rather you didn't if you said you were an Asian man. I know, it happens, but it'd rather it didn't. I'm kinda silly that way.
In other words, it cuts down on a lot of unnecessary and potentially embarassing crap I've had to put up living in small American logger towns, etc. Some people who may appear to be to others racist aren't necessarily - they're just ignorant, and I find there's a line between the two.
There is that. As for the fine line between racism and ignorance - well, yeah, alot of people react badly due to not being exposed to differences. I don't think it really excuses it though - But I'm biased against stupid people - and especially ignorant people, as I tend to think ignorance comes from a lack of effort. Slightly hypocritical, yes, but I'll be the first to admit it.
I'm not too into my gender studies, being a small town boy and all that, but I find that in essence, the current text based medium that comprises most of the web is democratic to all races and genders because when you're just text it's the content of what you say more than anything else.
Yes, as long as you decide to stay anoymous, cause most people will see you as they see themselves - project that generic image onto you - not generally a bad thing - I tend to visualize women the same - Men, less so.
I just find that when you say "I'm ______
I have no problem with someone giving as good as they get, actually. We've all done it.
Though I suppose fifteen minutes in my infinitely juvenile presence on IRC is enough to assume I'm one of those dorkass twenty five year old boys who spends way too much money on Japanese import Gundam model kits.
When I was on IRC, I think people must have thought I was either 45 or on hallucenogenics most of the time.
Who spent way too much money on X-Files junk, and anime stuff. *grin*
---------
I cam into this first thing in the morning - I really wish I hadn't.
For all those reasonable people who were disputing the fact that people are dicriminated against online in other articles, please scroll back to see the subject line "Golddigging sluts".
Yes - Women are accepted in technology - I mean, look at Lara Croft, right?
BTW - I'm another woman who likes to game, both with computer games and RPG's. I loved Resident Evil 2. I like shooting things once in awhile. But to be honest, I'd rather play FF 8 and kill things with a gunblade.
Gross Generalizations. Jerks.
-Noiz.
---------
Yeah, that's -so- what I was saying.
That's why I preface mine with "Blonde Chick".
Point being, someone shouldn't feel the need to omit anything -unless they want to-.
---------
The Internet is in most respects genderless. I have no idea whether any of the posters on Slashdot are female, or if they are white or black or Asian. How can I discriminate when I don't have anything at all to go upon?
Yeah, unless you identify yourself. Then it's possible to face discrimination.
Then why identify yourself?
Because it's who you are. Why hide it?
Your suggestion that there should be an introduction area for new users is absolutely ridiculous. There IS nothing to learn. You read, you post or you don't. It is the job of the newcomer to adapt to his enviroment, not vice versa.
Yeah, god forbid people learn how to do it properly and intelligently first - God forbid that actually -increases- the quality of discussion.
-Noiz,
Who thinks that helping newbies makes for a better community.
---------
Initially, I didn't think it made much sense- 4-7 miles isn't much of an audience-
But, if your goal *isn't* a world wide, or even a city-wide audience, there's alot that can be done.
If used as "neighborhood" radio stations, we might actually *have* neighborhoods again - there'd be something connecting people within the listening area, something tailored to that area. Even if we didn't get to know our neighbors, we'd certainly know what was going on with them - a whole new meaning of 'local' news.
Wow. I get all bouncy just thinking about it.
-Noiz,
Who'd like to teach the world to sing, apparently. Shoot.
---------
I'd love to see that.
I'd like to see intelligent women honoured. I'd kill to know who's doing what in which field. I'd like to hear all of the things I normally do - just with 'she' instead of 'he' once in awhile.
-Noiz,
Who is used to being outnumbered, but would like to not be sometimes.
---------
I wasn't really talking about kids - I'd have to agree with you on that. I meant people that feel intimidated by the process due to lack of education, money, whatever. Might be easier to vote if you just had to click on a button, after someone'd explained how.
Moot point, really, I think. Security, as above and below is the issue... And I know - If people are intimidated by voting, wouldn't they be intimidated by computers? *sigh*
-Noiz,
Socialist at Heart.
---------
Years ago, when I was still reading and posting on usenet as a newbie, I came to realize that hosility is expected if you present an opinion that any random person doesn't like.
The first time I got flamed, I responded rationally, and pointed out that about seven new people had likely seen the previous message, and decided never to post.
Unfortunately, the attitude prevails - be prpared to put up with crap if you involve yourself in discussion online - and trust me, oftentimes, the women in thier women only enclaves are no better.
Sure. We may be breeding jerks. Likely. But as someone who live action roleplays with quite a few of the bright, skilled jerks, I have come to see that in actual social situations, the jerks either have to adapt and become reasonable, or leave, because no one will listen to them, or put up with them.
Carrying your HS persecution like a cross on your back gets to be tiresome after awhile.
-Noiz,
Who got off the cross cause someone needed the wood. Two snaps up.
---------