Slashdot Mirror
Censorship In China
An Anonymous Coward writes: "Have a look at
this Businessweek article:
a site was partly censored for 15 days because of a post uncomfortable to the Chinese government, and
this Mercury Center article
that proposes a more global view of the China/Taiwan issue. Surprisingly, both articles suggest that things are going better and better."
Very topical; the U.S. vote on
permanent normalized trade relations
is scheduled for today.
As far as I am concerned, a sixteen year old gang banger or enforcer for the local crack dealer is not a "child". If they commit an adult crime, they should be prepared to pay an adult penalty.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
You forgot India, there are still some sanctions left over from those imposed after May 1999.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
>I don't think Cuba poses much of a threat to the
>country with the largest military in the world
The US does NOT have the largest military in the world.
Know who does? China!
I don't have current numbers, but as of Desert Storm, the US was not even in the top five. There was a big stink about how we were facing the "mother of all wars" against Iraq, which, at the time, and the fourth largest military in the world.
At the time we were number seven. Ahead of Iraq was china, Russia, and vietnam. Desert Storm prolly bumped Iraq out of the picture and upped us to number six.
But then, we've done nothing but cut back the military ever since Desert Storm, so I really doubt that we're still that high. And we certianly do NOT have the largest military in the world. That dubious honor still goes to china.
john
Imagine all the people...
I suppose, given your logic, that desegregation gives the finger to all the Confederate soldiers who died in the American Civil War?
Now, I think the embargo against Cuba is stupid, because it doesn't actually hurt Castro, just the men on the street. Castro can then blame the US for Cuba's piss-poor shape rather than Communism. End the embargo and Castro would be gone in a year. But if you want to win Florida (which has the 3rd or 4th largest population in the US and a TON of electoral votes) in a presidential election, then you are going to keep the embargo. Such is the nature of politics.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Nrrrt!
Groups of individuals optimizing to a very simple metric can create very complex systems (see Santa Fe Institute). There may be local "bad" results from greed, but is the greater results of groups of individuals motivated by greed really that bad? I don't know, but the answer is definitely not obvious.
Joe Batt Solid Design
How will keeping China poor help undermine its dictatorship? If it was a racist oligarchy, like South Africa was, then the people on top might be motivated by greed to encourage reforms. But it isn't. A few people wield absolute power, and they are essentially as rich as they want to be.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
the new zealand government is blocking a cigar site from being viewed here as of yesterday or so. anti-tabacco advertising laws you see, and pictures of cigars are of course adverts.
i'd say, as they figure out how, all governments are going to take a stand over particular things they don't want their public to see. the beauty of it all though, is that it's utterly futile, what with the proxy show-me-what-i'm-not-spose-to-see toys. and i'm sure technology will always be ahead of governments, in ensuring free access to information.
el bobo
On the plus side, there's not usually more than 10 good movies a year out of Hollywood anyway...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
If intimidation (sending a threatening letter with the understanding that you can outspend the victim in courts) counts as "due process of law", then I'm not surprised that no one is able to respect the law anymore.
Any American who still finds comfort in the fact that he can't be attacked without "due process" is deluding himself. Is there any connection remaining between the process and justice? All that seperates us from the Chinese are a few words on a page that no one takes seriously anymore anyway.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
mmmmm!
Difference? Simple.
The government is the government, while a corporation, no matter how large, has no absolute legal power. Given that China is a soveign state, recognized as such by other countries all over the world, the government is, by definition, the end-all, be-all definition of legality, and acceptable behavior. Meaning? It is by definition correct!
Remember: France, Germany, England, Ireland, etc. do not recognize you individually. They recognize America, the country. Look at your passport: requests for safe passage are made on your behalf by the Secretary of State.
Point? You are not recognized by by other countries. China's government is. It has more-or-less absolute power over its citizens. As it should. So quit bitching! On the other hand, you are a private entity. So is Micro$oft.
If "Mike" didn't like it, he should get out of the country. (Many of us did!)
Americans don't like it when other countries point and laugh at our cheating politicians, pedophiles, whinos, drive-by shootings, etc. and many firmly believe in the it's none of your business line. How is this any different?
Sure, you can bitch and whine about human rights to free speech, freedom to congregate, freedom to carry automatic weapons and shoot each other. Whatever. It makes no difference. Given China's government's legitmacy, as supported by its recognition by countries all around the world, it is prefectly within its rights to do whatever the hell it damn well likes!
Underrated...
you can figure out these moderation mysteries by clicking on the # of the post... (that little (#13) there)...
Tough, huh?
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
You have to be joking (or trolling, but I'm the trusting sort). Are you seriously suggesting that the US should be left to its own affairs? And then, in the next paragraph, supporting your tradition of global interference?
UN regulations are intended to prevent this 'none of your business' attitude. Thereby, hopefully, averting another World War.
Hamish
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
And the chinese government *can* keep the internet under control. They *can* control the information infrastructure of the country. And they DO.
Yes.. there is internet in China.. and only those providers who comply with strict regulations can provide it.
I believe that they have already sentenced Anonymous Coward to death
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
The government is a single entity. Businesses are composed of thousands of seperate, entities, each with its own self-interests.
So what makes you sure that the world's a better place?
(Meant as an honest question, not just a rhetorical one.)
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
As regards the year-to-year renewal process being a motivation factor for China's continued liberalization, there are stronger forces at work there. The Communist Party does understand that private enterprise needs to flourish as the government-owned enterprises collapse or are restructured, since jobs are desperately needed for the millions of urban workers who are being displaced. (I wrote a term paper on this transitional process for a Developmental Economics class once, so I've done some research)
Locking in permanent MFN status for China has been a prerequisite for China's entry into the WTO, which will prove to be more of a liberalizing force than any gaggle of pontificating US Senators could ever hope to be. China's move towards private enterprise over the last 15-20 years has resulted in the single greatest economic achievement in terms of sheer numbers of people lifted out of abject poverty in memory, and a further herculean effort will be needed to avoid social chaos as structural reforms continue. We can either jump on board and help transform the lives of 20% of the people on this planet, or we can create another Cold War. The choice is ours.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
China has 1.4 billion people. Thats 1.4 billions mouths to feed hamburgers and 2.8 billion pairs of feet to put shoes on.
There is no excuse.. We are rather hypocritical in this respect.
[theory]
It's probably a 'love thine enemy' powerplay; Get the Chinese to stop contemplating nuclear first strike against the US by buying them off with the US market. On the other hand, we couldn't really offer Fidel anything he would take in return for the same contemplation..
[/theory]
I'm all for a little China spanking: They deserve it. I'm also for a lift of the embargo with Cuba: They don't..
.sig: Now legally binding!
China has 1 billion potential consumers.
Cuba does not.
Seriously, the theory is that the more capitalism spreads in China, the more people will want freedom and democracy. Most Cubans already have access to western goods so this theory doesn't really apply in most people's eyes.
Capitalism has little to do with a nation's government. You can have a democracy, a republic, a parliament, a monarchy, even a dictatorship, and still have a capitalist economy.
Simply injecting capitalism into a society is futile unless there are fundamental government-level changes that occur at the same time. Take a look at the current state of Russia for a good example of that. Yeltsin (who did many things right, but just as many wrong) made some sweeping capitalist reforms, but was really pretty weak on producing a stable government. So what's the current state of things in Russia? From what I've read, corruption is rampant, all the wealth is in the hands of very few, and "might makes right" in governing (see Chechnya).
Yes, capitalism is probably the best economic system out there (despite the problems). But it's not a silver bullet. Unless it's combined with an equally good government, the sought-after reforms will be a long time coming. And something tells me free trade won't do anything to alleviate the problem of censorship in China!
JimD
I know there are human rights violations in Cuba but there's no way that the embargo has ever been about that.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
So what's the difference between a web site being shut down because it carried information the government didn't like, and being shut down because it carried information some large company didn't like?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
You are correct.
Who thinks trading with China is a good thing? Business does. Whether it is ag-corps selling canned hams, tobacco selling, well, tobacco, or aerospace/telecom/tech companies grabbing whatever market share they can, Big Business (worn cliche, I know) wants permenant China trade (no worries about long term contracts). So, since market capitalization has been placed before our (blemished) ethics and corporations buy whatever legislation they need, the shining beacon of democracy has been replaced with the blue light special.
Cuba gets differant treatment, why? Sugar producers don't want cheap Cuban sugar in US markets, tobacco wants keep out the better quality(?) Cuban products, The Cuban people are so poor that they would not be purchasing enough US product, and no one wants to alienate the Cuban-American political bloc.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
I dont' buy anything "made in china" because I know it will break in a couple of months......I think China is one of the few countries that produces more inferior products than US of A. I'd rather pay 30 more dollars for my DVD/CD player that is "made in japan" and have it last several years...then having to buy a new one every year that is "made in china/usa."
Cheap labor=cheap products
Why win9x really sucks
Unfortunately, this is not the only form of censorship. The problem with it is, most of it is even unknown to us.
The Chinese leadership is looking at the G7 countries and saying to themselves, "Gee, someday we want to be like them." At the same time, they're looking at the frightening example of the former Soviet countries where productivity has dropped by half in the past decade. The Soviet experience presents a cautionary tale that the Chinese cannot afford to ignore. We do not yet have a model for tranforming a failed communist economy into a successful free market economy. But, we have learned from the Soviet experience that shock treatment doesn't work.
The Chinese have already established a number of highly successful special economic zones where free trade reigns. They've also evinced an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it disposition in Hong Kong since taking over.
Eventually, all of China will become a huge special economic zone. But, remember that the world's largest group of poor, uneducated people lives in China. They'll need to keep basic services like education, food production and medical care (to name a few) running for a few more decades in order to get there. When a critical mass of Chinese are well off and well educated, then they will insist on democracy and an end to corruption, as has recently happened in Taiwan. This will likely occur around the time we have a $1,000 computer about as powerful as a human brain (about twenty five years from now). Sounds like an interesting future.
--
Socrates was asked where he was from. He replied not "Athens," but "The world."
It will if China achieves what it believes to be its manifest destiny. One China (no taiwan).
--
+&x
sure. just like in Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, Mexico....
Yes...and the reason you know that US companies run business in these countries is because when they don't adhere to basic treatment of workers it gets plastered all over the news. Can we say Cathy Lee Gifford? Not to mention comparing Malay, Thai or Korean economic development before and after US companies started doling out the work.
A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society
Washington, D.C.
But reporting on censorship in China is like reporting on the sun setting. It's just not news and dosen't surprise anyone.
--- RFC 1149 Compliant.
perhaps you should do some reading before placing these wild conspiracy theories up as posts, hmmm? the reason you can't back any of this up is because there are no facts to support it...or did the chinese contribute to all the repubs election campaigns as well?
It's not funny till someone gets hurt.
who think trading with China is a *good thing*.
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
I know this sounds very argumentative, but if money and market size is truly your motivation, then why no lift those same embargoes against Cuba? Standing on moral ground until the market is large enough just looks very hypocritical.
Agreed. But I don't see that this is a free speech issue (I'm mortified that I spelled "speech" wrong in my previous post, BTW), because anyone can read, discuss, and distribute GPL'd code. Maybe you can't distribute binaries that you make from that code without any restrictions, but that's commerce or copyright law, not freedom of speech. In fact, the main way to violate the GPL (by not distributing source along with binaries) would be anti-free speech, because now you aren't passing along the author's thoughts (embodied in code) to your users. I could make the argument that the GPL in fact encourages free speech, because anything you say in the code has to be distributed to anyone who gets the binary. No one can use your work without also passing along your writing.
So yes the code isn't free in the sense that it's public domain and anything can be done with it, but I think it's a stretch to say that RMS has anything against the free interchange of ideas. He's probably done more to encourage that than almost anyone in the last 20 years. I certainly haven't heard him call for censorship of those who have violated the GPL, for example - he usually just wants them to straighten up and fly right with respect to licensing issues.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Those are all very good points. I guess my expectation is that capitalism will bring Western goods to the Chinese people, and eventually Western ideas along with it. While you can have capitalism under those different forms of government, the ideas of fair market price and prizing efficiency which are embedded in the capitalistic system ultimately lead people to a more egalitarian view of commerce, and ultimately of their entire world. When the people see what their government has done to them, I predict at least a velvet revolution, and possibly a violent one. It may depend on the harvest that year. That sounds really cold-blooded, but ultimately the citizens of a country are responsible for their government, and they bear the ultimate responsibility to change it for the better whether by working within the system, or by replacing the system.
The conditions in Russia are awful, and I blame the west (western Europe and the U.S.) for that. Maybe we should have spent more time emphasizing democratic ideals and a strong stance on individual rights and liberties, rather than just trying to bail out their economy. Their economy would probably right itself overnight if they had the proper laws against corruption and crime and those laws were policed and enforced correctly.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
The problem I have in trying to figure out this case is I can't tell how much of part xenophobia plays in this, and I can't tell how much of a real case people have against China. I am not an expert on current US-China trade relationtions, although I do know more then my fair share about Chinese history (I read the Water Margin...twice!)
The problem is that even though the Chinese government is doing plenty of evil things, people would hate them and say they were evil even if they wern't. Can anyone deny that there is a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment in America?
A hundred years ago, there was the same basic arguments about letting Chinese workers into our country (and Chinese workers did end up building most of our Western railroad system, at great cost of life to them). During this time their was great furor in Cali about their ways, probably because they smoked that devil opium and worshipped that pagan Buddha idol. Or basically, FUD because they took jobs away from American workers, or maybe just because they were different. All hidden under a veil of morality.
Much of what still goes on is still the same thing, fear and prejudice disguised as moralizing, this time it is hidden behind the rhetoric of the Chinese government doesn't follow human rights, instead of the Chinese people aren't Christians. And the same economic interests are making this rhetoric important.
Human rights we like to believe, and I think this is true, are more then just a local moralistic prejudice. Our concern about this stems not from trying to force a way of life on others, but on a concern for the Chinese people, and that our oppostion is to the Chinese govermnent.
On the other hand, the opposing argument is that China has a history of authoritarian government, and that it is part of their culture. To oppose the authority of the Chinese government is to oppose the teeming masses of China, who have indirectly given the "mandate of heaven" to their rulers by not rebelling (succesfully, at least). So even if our local notion of rule by the people and by the law is not carried out in China, there is a culturally different but still valid system of popular rule going on in China.
Those, I think are the basic arguments and counter arguments to the China issue. Here are my own humble opinions about what these mean:
1. "Not letting China into the WTO is xenophobia and will bar China from the community of nations." I think this is false. China is already part of the community of nations in most ways, it participates in every major international scientific and diplomatic body AFAIK. They have a permanent seat on the UN council of five! The real issue here is whether they will be let into the system of global capitalism. The interests here seem to both be economic, business vs. unions. Right now I will have to vote with the unions, but in either case they do not need to participate enriching a fraction of the US Economy to participate in global affairs
2. "The government of China is not evil. They are merely trying to admistister a large country and most of the people support them." This, I belive, is true. Considered to some truly brutal dictatorships where you wonder what the strong man is putting on his cereal, China is very well run. China is not a one man state but a state run by a council of older bureacrats who honestly do love their country and want to see it prosper. And they have been seeing it prosper. They are not fanatical with hate, and they do not wish to harm people. They are cold and ruthless, but not cruel.
3. "China has different notions of human rights and government authority caused by their traditions and history." True, but who cares? United States tradition and history said for a long time (for example) that blacks were inferior and that they were fit to be slaves. We realized that this was wrong, and we changed it, or tried to change it. Why is China somehow immune from making changes? And my own sense of personal values, and I think that most people would agree with me, says that human rights (and political rights) are not just local prejudices, not just a cultural thing. They are universal, and any civilized country of any culture or history should recognize them.
Thank you for listening. My own mind is made up that China should not be in the WTO (mostly because I don't like the WTO), but draw your own conclusions.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Capitalism has little to do with a nation's government. You can have a democracy, a republic, a parliament, a monarchy, even a dictatorship, and still have a capitalist economy.
Totally false. To the extent your nation is unfree, it isn't capitalist. This is because the defining nature of capitalism is that what's yours is yours, what's mine is mine, and neither of us has a right to take without permission - in other words, freedom. Anything that compromises this (tax-and-spend, communism, censorship etc) will commensurately destroy capitalism.
It runs the other way too, nowadays - capitalism left as an option will undermine and erode restrictions of free choice, by shopping around for legal systems - both on the personal and coprorate levels.
This doesn't mean, though, that companies will gain long-term by buying into corrupt regimes that are prepared to make them special exceptions. Such a situation will always backfire on them in time; they'll themselves become victims of a bigger crony, or they'll lose customers when the customers see the law is biased.
Capitalism pushes legal systems everywhere towards "laissez faire" - where the law is for justice, protection, and arbitration, not for restriction, privelige, or looting.
And it is the person in China who can earn a better living as a result.
Unfortunately it's not the "person in China" who can earn a better living. Being a communist country (i assume, I haven't studied Mao-style communism) means that it is not the individual who gets a better living, but the community (country) as a whole. Again unfortunately, it seems that the real world effect of this is that the person getting richer is the one working for the government (who own everything anyway) not the one doing the work.
--
+&x
the latest version of the bill DOES tie the agreement to various human rights issues...which is something you would know if you were paying attention
It's not funny till someone gets hurt.
As to the larger issue of restricting trade with countries which don't adhere to the same cultural values as our own, I don't see what good that does anybody.
Calling communism "cultural values" implicitly tries to absolve the murderers of many tens of millions of people all over the world. It also shows a profound lack of education and personal morals.
Hrm...I hadn't thought of that before, but you could be right. Returning China to "Normal Trade Relations" is overtly a political move anyway. It won't really change things except in the political landscape. Ever notice all the "Made in China" items that you can buy at your local store? Well if we didn't have trade how did we get them? The fact is that every year we decide wither or not to trade with China for the duration of that year, and that decicion can be revoked at any time. The whole "embargo" is simply a political bargining tool. Now if we take this threat away will China be more apt to give Taiwan it's freedom? Probably not, but it is a good showing, and will probably play well in the international scene. Myself, I belive when we place a trade embargo on someone we should cut off ALL trade until they show some good faith ( which China HAS NOT DONE ).
:)
But that is a very intresting idea aclaudet, I wouldn't doubt if it had some kernel of truth to it
PS: The text of the bill can be found here there's a PDF version but it's got a horrible layout.
Those nike's won't cost twice as much, as they are already maxing the acceptable consumer price level - aggregate income. Nike products are also sold for many times over what it costs to produce and market these products. I'm willing to bet that if Nike raised prices, their aggregate revenue would go down due to prices unacceptable to consumers. You can only raise prices so high before parents say no to childrens advertising propagandized mainstream cult status symbols. I also doubt there are too many adults running around shaving their heads with nike signs.
US or West did not "invade" eastern Europe and somehow goverment did not fall there very quickly.
You forgeting one importand problem. There was USSR supporting Cuba.
A communist is one who actually believes and acts to advance that belief whether in word or in deed without having a gun put to his head.
Hmm, and what do you call the people who do this WITH a gun to their head. Would those be the *smart* flat-earthers or the *dumb* ones?
I am interested in hearing your justification for the Catholic bashing.
How do you put years of personal experience in a post? Actually the only thing that made me take notice was your quote..."...and those fellow travellers who can't admit to themselves and others that they have been supporting a monstrous unadulterated evil." Perhaps "monstrous" and "unadulterated" are a bit strong, but as a metaphor for legions of people following a false teaching, I think it worked pretty well. And yes, I do think the present day Catholic church has many false, totally useless, and baseless, teachings. Which often leads people to do evil in the name of good, i.e. kinda-like how communism works in the real physical world.
Either way, Censorship In China sucks (just to stay a wee bit on-topic)
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+&x
Communists are communists.
And Christians are christians.
What was your point again? Oh yea, it's real easy to hate a bunch of people if you just stereotype them. Did Jesus tell you that? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" sounds pretty communistic to me.;-)
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+&x
Ok, there have been some good points about china being unable to keep up with the Internet as far as censorship is concerned. Thats all well and good, but how in the hell are you going to get all the vast majority of people in the countryside, who make less in a year than most of us make in a week. On top of that most are illiterate, which makes the Web absolutely useless for them.
Ok, then there is the possibility of commerce bringing enough money to bring the majority of people into enough of a standing that the government has to democratize. Nope, not gonna happen, you've got a billion people to bring up, sheer scale says it cant happen. Not to mention, many more well off asian countries still censor the media of almost all controvesial content (Singapore comes to mind). This is about cash for big business, not freedom for China.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
A number of US firms chose to trade with Third Reich, and are now being bullied into paying reparations to primarily Jewish groups for losses (real property) or lost wages (slave labor).
My point was that if trade is trade and we don't give a rat's ass about moral choices, then we shouldn't be paying off the Jews and others who are claiming damages. Hey -- Nazi Germany was just a country which didn't adhere to the same cultural values as our own and our businesses transactions with them were just business transactions, pure and simple, and we shouldn't feel any obligation to pay reparations to them.
My larger point is that we expect our Government's policies to be a distillation of our own values, and that it is entirely appropriate to box the Chinese on the ears over their human rights record when they come asking for a trade deal. This is especially important to our foreign policy in other parts of the world, like Muslim nations, that already think we're godless money grubbing heathens.
Does this actually suprise anyone? Let's get serious! China is still a Communist country. Censorship is common practice. The should be more of a status quo than a news story. A real news story would be China letting something slip through!
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
You can find the CNN article here. An amusing point is that there is also a link to a Time article on the point brought up here about whether opening trade with China means trade should be opened up with Cuba. You can find that here.
Major point: The Senate will consider the issue after Memorial Day. The vote will probably come in early June and the normalized trade is expected to pass. It hasn't completely passed yet, but the chances of it failing are miniscule.
B. Elgin
B. Elgin
"Read at your own risk; feel free to ignore."
When I buy a PC, it does not list on the side the countries where all the chip were fabbed, where the fan in the power supply was made, location of the factory that stamped out the connectors for the IDE bus, etc. All these are commodity parts, and tend to be shipped from wherever is supplying them cheapest this month. As a consumer you simply can't know where everything you're buying was built.
That is not to say that you shouldn't take reasonable steps to avoid buy stuff made in countries you dissaprove of, but being 100% sure is impossible without enacting some draconian legislation regarding country-of-origin labeling.
I am glad that you had the chance to see the "unpleasant" side of a totalitarian society. It is amusing to see so many people, who have never lived a day of their lives in a dictatorship or totalitarian state, posting messages about how terrible and frightening their political and economic systems really are. I grew up in a slum in Brazil in the 70's when the military controlled the government. Back then, most "police officers" were essentially federal soldiers and I vividly remember how they routinely rounded up certain regular criminals and certain "leftist elements" such as union organizers and put them into police trucks and how most of these people simply "disappeared." The current Chinese government makes the Latin American dictatorships during their "anti-communist" internal war campaigns seem benevolent and liberal by comparison.
Opening trade is not condoning Maoist or Stalinist-style Communism. Trade is a way of making the world closer knit through economic ties. It lessens the threat of armed conflict [because it's bad to kill your customers]. The Generally Accepted Tariffs & Treaties (aka. WTO) along with the Marshall plan were post-WW2 plans to effectively help our former enemies (Japan & Germany). They worked, marvelously. And the world is a better place for it.
-Stu
Interesting how you start your article off by saying that there is no porn in China, obviously something that is off the top of your mind. Actually 4.5 years is a long time ago, and 4.5 months in a farmers town doe snot make you an expert, that slike saying any foreign national who spends 4.5 months in Wyoming is an expert in the affairs of the hallowed halls of Washington. why would someone need three bibles anyway? Hey a lot of Chinese actually "like " their government, they have their reasons too, just cause they dont subscribe to the American Constitution, does not mean that they have a shitty government. I get my pictures developed here all the time, a lot cheaper than back home. As an EXPERT of China information dissemination yuo must be fluent in Chiense! Guess you were reading the papers, listeningto the radio, and watching TV all the time wih complete comprehension. .......US is not teh centre of the universe buddy, go back to Wyoming
Thats the dorkiest thing I have ever heard. Ya might as well place Canada and Mexico up there. Clinton is so pro-China it disgusts me. Taiwan is the country whose democracy is being threatened by a war-hawkish China (who by the way has recently threatened to engage in ***NUCLEAR WARFARE*** with the U.S.) and Taiwan is the one on the list. Dumbasses....
It's interesting to note what are 'acceptable' work conditions, as well as 'acceptable' wages. Compared to many working conditions in China, American companies apparently surpass most qualities. Check out the program about China, WTO, and Human Rights here from NPR.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
>Do you wear Gap clothes?
nope
>Do you wear Nikes?
nope
>Do you wear any clothes at all? Almost everything
>you wear comes from China.
Lets see... Jacket: Sri Lanka. Shirt: USA. Shoes: UK. Pants: Mexico.
I'm not gonna bother checking to see where my underwear was made. But you get the point.
>The DVD player that you own is made in China.
Wrong again. Mine was made in Japan. As was the DVD-ROM in my computer.
>Just about everything that is mass produced comes
>from there.
Lets see... My car: Japan. My Mac: Ireland. My PC: Japan... (looking at the items on my desk) Telephone: Canada. Keyboard: Thailand BallPoint pen: Taiwan. Headphones: Taiwan Penguin Mints: Seattle... wait. The *box* that the mints are in was made in china.
You were saying something about how important china is to me?
>I can assure you, those $100 Nikes that you so
>enjoy will cost twice as much.
And I couldn't care less. Never owned a pair of nikes. Never will. I'm confidant enough of myself not to have to be a trendy little pissant and try to "be like mike". Too bad you don't understand that that is possible.
john
Imagine all the people...
How is that "Troll"? These are legitimate concerns.
http://www.truechristiansunite.com Home of the 1st TRUE Christian AI -- Hal!!!
I doubt it, China very much opposes any sort of recognition of Taiwan, however minor. Just recently, the PRC killed Taiwan's attempt to enter the World Health Organization. See this Taipei Times article for more info. A quote from the article, concerning the recent Taiwan earthquake:
"...This is what happened. On September 21, the UN consulted with the Security Council about providing Taiwan with rescue and relief aid. A UN official then reported that China refused to respond to the issue positively, preventing the UN from providing timely assistance. Published reports later also revealed that China demanded that any UN or Red Cross aid for Taiwan must first be approved by Beijing."
"It is terribly unfortunate that Taiwan, with 23 million people, a population larger than three-quarters of the UN member-states, is not allowed to receive immediate and timely humanitarian assistance from the international community..."
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The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Trade does not validate the policies of a particular country. It rather tries to encourage change through interdependency. So far, this has worked far beyond anything we could have imagined when the GATT (now the WTO) was formed post-WW2. The world is more prosperous because of it.
The leaders of the world in 1945 decided "never again" would there be a world war. After 30 years of armed conflict and isolationism, it became clear that the way to foster change is not through SHUNNING people but bringing them into the fold, even if you disagree with them. The global economy is a way of ensuring this doesn't happen again (as we become closer knit economically). You don't kill your customers.
This is not to say that restricting trade is not a powerful tool; in the case of South Africa, it was extremely effective. China, on the other hand, is way too big for this to be effective. We must try to change it gradually. Interdependence through trade is the first step in that process....
As for Cuba, that's a cold-war relic that really should be reconsidered. Soon.
-Stu
I have no obseesion with falling tech stocks. Quite the opposite, I too felt it wasn't a very interesting /. story.
Same here: Censoship in China is a political issue. If the story had been about a a poster rather than a website would it have shown up here? No.
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Years of oppression to those two things? Gambling fer chrissake. Please. Think about what you just said, and how ridiculous that is.
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I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
I can only assume you are using sarcasm... However, I still stand by my statement. This topic isn't "news for nerds". It's more like "news for the masses". There are plenty of other news outlets, like my local newspaper, cnn.com, bbc.com, alt.politics, and the likes to report this kind of thing.
I'm not questioning that intelligent people should be aware of such issues (they should be), I am questioning its place on slashdot. If someone bans a web page in Vermont, that's news for slashdot. Red China bans so many that to make an issue out of any one instance is (-1 REDUNDANT).
Come on, is it really a surprise to *anyone* here that China censors web pages? I don't think this even qualifies as news, let alone news for nerds.
My 2 cents.
Xenophobia is fear of a different species. As for the rest of your comment, it looks just as silly.
coolfish.
ok. please, tell me why big businesses who use patent laws, law suits, and agressive anti-competetive tactics in the free market economy are not similar in their totalitarian ways than the chinese gov't, who also use tactics to squish critisism.
This list is obvious wrong and suspicious.
As has been pointed out somewhere else around here, China has a fair ammount of control over the internet through ISPs, as much as /. ers might think that is impossible. They are looking for ways to do even more, which is really scary or really dumb, or probably both This is the PLA's take on it
Hehe, different strokes for different folks. I got that link from Christy-fundy friend of mine. But it would still get a Chinese site in way hot water.
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+&x
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
We can't justify it. There is no excuse. The embargo should be lifted, preferably yesterday.
Right-wingers like to believe that we are making some sort of grand "moral" stand against Fidel Castro and Communism, but as you have pointed out, the hypocrisy is nearly staggering. The United States is the only country in the world that has decided to make such a stand (with the possible exception of Israel, or have they backed down?)
Don't get me wrong; I would very much like to see a democratic, Castro-free Cuba. But keeping up with the embargo is not the way to encourage such a transition. One of the things that people tend to underplay in the collapse of the Soviet Union was the introduction of the Internet into society (and therefore, the fostering of the free exchange of information.) America is doing nothing to contribute to a change of power in Cuba. If anything, we are helping Fidel Castro by giving him a common "enemy" that he can unite his people behind.
If we Americans really wanted freedom and democracy in Cuba, we would drop the embargo. In addition, it would be a boon to U.S. businesses, but that would only be (in my opinion) a side effect.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Well, I'm really not sure what got your panties in a bind, but let me drop a couple of comments back at ya here:
Interesting how you start your article off by saying that there is no porn in China, obviously something that is off the top of your mind.
Not really. I mentioned it first because it's something that I've heard a lot of people discuss in relation to China in a completely different area. Sorry if it disappoints you to hear that.
Actually 4.5 years is a long time ago, and 4.5 months in a farmers town doe snot make you an expert, that slike saying any foreign national who spends 4.5 months in Wyoming is an expert in the affairs of the hallowed halls of Washington.
China is a country of slow social and govornment changes - most of the time. But - even then, I still keep up with events there. As I mentioned I was there on work. The company still travels there, and I still hear how things are - and, for the most part, things haven't changed much. Cell phones are getting more and more dominant, since there's such a long wait for phone service. Those who are in areas where it's not nearly as long of a wait for phone services are slowly getting 'net access - it's quite the growth thing there now. Things change, but I do keep up.
a lot of Chinese actually "like " their government, they have their reasons too, just cause they dont subscribe to the American Constitution, does not mean that they have a shitty government.
I never said they did or didn't like thier govornment. Considering that there are still party members there, at least SOMEONE like it over there. It's the same as here - some people like the govornment, some don't.
And, Yep, as a matter of fact - I do speak Chineese. But, admittedly, I'm not completely fluent - that's what the company's translator was for. I could do quite a bit with what I do know, but, my comprehension of the language does have limitations. And keep in mind - you didn't have much else to do unless you could find a ride to Bejing.
US is not teh centre of the universe buddy, go back to Wyoming
I never said it was. After having seen as much of the US, Canada, China, Hong Kong, and Japan as I managed to get the chance to see, I can honestly say that no - the US isn't the center of the Universe. And I've never been on to claim it was.
And furthermore - I probably shouldn't respond to obvious troll bait, but twits like you piss me off. No one here had stepped forward and said "Yep, I'm familiar with what this particular far away place is like - I've been here. Here's what I know...." So I did, and passed on the information that I knew on the subject. That's part of what /. is about, if I remember correctly. It USED to be very much about the dissemination and trading of information that would be of interest to the geek community at large (in particular, two geeks - you know who) and further discussion with people who understood the subject matter was a joy. It's twits like you that type with one hand on the keyboard and one hand around thier favorite muscle that like to try and piss everyone else off just so you get your jollies that have managed to nearly destroy the ability to have a good dialog on /. Now - did my response finally make you spooge, so that you can go climb back under the covers and get a good night's sleep?
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
My comment was neither for nor against the pending trade agreement. I was expressing my belief that equating communism with "different culture" is either condoning Maoist or Stalinist style communism, or (most likely) shows incredible ignorance.
This is exactly whats wrong with this entire thread, most people keep assuming the US is this independant entity working its own agenda, which in some cases turns out to be true, but how many of those concerned about China even bothered contacting their Congressperson through phone calls or written non-email letters? 10% 1% Anyone?
As to those who keep harping about how China is "getting better" are unbelievably naive and spoon fed by the media, as the parent poster pointed out. What do you think keeps China interested in winning PR? Free trade, now that they're gonna get it they won't be terribly interested in real reforms.
In the meantime I hope everyone with a Rep who voted yes on this sends him/her a mean letter on how they have lost at least one vote.
After killing off 100 million of their own subjects during the last century in lots of different countries using many, many variations of communism, it's kind of hard to gain any enthusiasm for the proposition that we should still differentiate between good communists and bad communists. This is on par with scrupulously maintaining the distinction between the 'smart' flat earthers and the 'dumb' flat earthers. Give it up already!
Let's face it, at this point, there aren't any good communists, there are just those who have blood on their hands and can't live with the fact that they were a part of the machinery of evil (and are thus in major denial), those who look forward to getting in the power seat and don't mind blood on their hands in future, and those fellow travellers who can't admit to themselves and others that they have been supporting a monstrous unadulterated evil.
DB
You know why you've never heard that? Because if they said it, the government would come kill their children.
Look, as I clearly stated, I understand that atrocities do happen. Give me at least a little credit.
The people with whom I have spoken in chat, as well as the people I have met who have immigrated from China, just don't strike me as being horrified and repressed victims of a facist regime. It's not like talking with or reading stories written by people from Cambodia under Pol Pot - China is a very, very different society from ours. To hold them to western standards without a little digging into their history and culture is wrong.
It's not like these sorts of things never happen in the USA. People get dragged off to jail all the time for stupid reasons. Sure, maybe they don't get nailed down to a piece of plywood for months on end, but if they did, would we hear about it?
I'm just asking all of you to have a little objectivity about the whole situation. I personally think that the 'communist' gonvernment in China sucks rocks - but I also think that our government, or any government more concerned with self-preservation than with the advancement, culturally and technologically, of its people, sucks just as much.
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blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
Someone marked this down, and I don't know why. It's VERY true. I've talked with some enough of the locals to know that, yep, the law works one way for us, and another way for them. May not be fair, but it's very true. *SIGH*
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
This would be a wild guess, but I'm suspecting that the reason the restrictions are still in place is because of the very reasons you stated. They're right next door to us and they're using a governing model that some folks high up in the power structure feel is not a good one.
The fear is probably that Cuba will align with China or Iraq or somesuch place and once again become a staging area.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
Oh, and I'm always a girl when I am in chatrooms. I've been doing that for years. I'm only a 40 year old male in meatspace.
Well, I'm sorry that you're so unhappy with who you are that you've spent the last couple of years masquerading as a foreign woman in a chat room.
Maybe you should get some therapy, or talk with your insurance company about getting gender-transitive surgery.
a/s/l?!?!
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blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
Clinton is so right.
Carousel is a lie!
Well, which editor raised fuss during Wen Hoo Lee/Los Alamo case, and said "Gee, maybe we are overdoing with this China bashing thing". I'd think that's overdue.
This slashdot contributor picked 2 articles out of thousands paper/magazine in circulation and trying to establish a conspiracy theory, argument is running a little thin.
I have to clarify that communism vs. capitalism are two economical systems, and authoritarian vs. democracy are two political systems.
Economically, China is no longer a communist country. But its goverment is still authoritarian, which inevitabily, abusive and corrupt. China now is not unlike Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia and Phillipines 20 years ago. There were massacares, assassinations and censorships in those countries during 70's and 80's too (a.k.a human right problems). How come US still support them then? Is it because self-interests?
I just love hypocrites.
And I just love to hear Congressmen talking about 'thru trade export our values' to China. What a colonialist mindset. One guy from Missouri and another from Arkansas. Yeah, dixie chic values.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
So, concidering
a. that US is the only western country where death penalty is still valid,
b. that people get killed by the US police for no reason,
c. all the known facts about China,
d. all the corporation power in US,
how would you rate human rights in US and China in a rate from 0 to 10, with China rating 0 ? I, for example, i would rate US no more than 2 (with Greece, where i live, scoring about 8).
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I'll bet the Chinese govt is pretty worried about the Internet right now; I suspect that most media (newspapers, TV, radio) is tightly controlled and monitored. But the 'net allows information to travel from areas outside China (and thus Chinese control) into China - sort of like Radio Free Europe.
Of course, replace "China" is "Western World" and "government" with "mega-corps" and the statement is still true.
A little correction, it's Pepsi that doing the advertising(you folks sure can tell the difference of coke and pepsi, right?) I'm surprised that a large nation such as China can be so close minded to ban pop stars. This probabily cause misconceptions when people talk about open source and communism.
Red China can't go on forever. Eventually, 1.6 billion pissed-off Chinese will unify.... and I would not want to be on the wrong ends of their sticks, pitchforks, guns, rocks, and bombs.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
...that would be YOU being censored for speaking out against the People's Revolutionary Democractic Free Software Republic.
Left-wing fascism is just as bad as right-wing fascism, something we've learned all too well last century. Fnord, I guess.
I'm glad that freedom exists in Hong Kong, but that's more a result of the British than of the mainland government, isn't it? OK, so they haven't acted to reduce freedoms to the level of the mainland yet, but they haven't exactly been increasing the amount of freedom in Hong Kong either.
I'm in favor of free trade with China because capitalism has the potential to sidestep this "one step at a time" attitude that the Chinese government has, and go right to the people. Sure, capitalism has problems too, but the people can deal with that themselves once they can freely elect their leaders and determine their own nation's policies.
To be honest, I continue to be amazed that any government can keep 1 billion+ people living in those conditions and stave off a revolution (a real democratic one) for as long as they have. I guess it's true that you can get used to anything, once you try it for long enough.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Well basically you have a communist government telling one of its business owners what to do. Considering the businesses in China are all government owned, they feel they have a right to have published what they want published. It's certainly easier for them to make rules than it is for us to make rules. If China wants to have their internet economy growth to fizzle, I guess that's their own perogative. Maybe one of these days they'll see that they'll get more productivity out of their billion inhabitants if they go to a more capitalist economy.
Considering that China simultaneously wants to make inroads into the Internet, while also wanting complete control over it, it is inevitable that eventually Internet anarchy, cryptography, and technology-facilitated free speech will collide with the attempt of the Chinese government to maintain a monopoly on information.
This is not just inevitable but a good thing. It is easy to have troops open fire on a peaceful group of protesters in Tianeman Square, but much more difficult to control a distributed network of protest.
This is another case of a no-win situation for the US. If we establish permanent normalized trade with China, we're accused of being two faced and ignoring their terrible human rights record. If we do take the "moral high ground", the rest of the world continues normal trade with China and the US gets shut out of the biggest developing market in the world.
Sorry about that, non-Americans, but I believe we're going to protect our economic ass.
It's clear that his problem is not that he was censored, but that he was silenced for an unintentional "crime." Those who practice Falun Gong in China often do it in protest, but this guy doesn't care about a lack of what Americans see as basic freedoms. The idea that a journalist (which, even if he doesn't admit it, is what he is) would allow an outside power to obstruct his or her ability to disseminate views is preposterous; in China, it seems commonplace.
True democracy in Taiwan was established only in the last decade. Prior to that, the KMT's rule was as absolute as the PRC's.
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
I hate replying to myself, but, there was one thing that I wanted to be sure was understood. I saw some things that here in America (and in the UK) that we really wouldn't like a whole lot. Everything is dirty. You can't drink the water because of the contamination. They don't use diapers - the kids just squat wherever they are to use the restroom. A public bathroom is just about the grossest thing I've ever seen. Most of the food is great, but some of it like "birds nest soup" is pretty questionable. I've seen criminals chained in the back of trucks - and discovered they were headed off to execution (that was in Bejing).
BUT - it was a great experience! The govornment of China may be quite questionable to us Americans, but the people are what makes China a really nice place to visit. They really aren't that different than here in the USA. If you ever get the chance to go - do it. It's worth your time. And even though the Great Wall is partially a tourist trap - go check it out. It's pretty amazing to walk on.
Take your passport with you everywhere. If you stray too far off of the beatten path in China, you'll be asked for it. If you don't have it, things can get stickly real quick. Another thing that us Americans aren't used to. But it's worth it.
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
...about the curious timing implied in Jamie's post? Large corporations and/or the government are pushing hard to normalize relations with a country that everyone agrees has a horrible record on censorship and human rights. A couple days before an important vote in Congress, articles appear in major news outlets discussing how things are "so much better" in China.
Does anybody really believe that's a coincidence?
Journalists who receive paychecks from large corporations are unable to write anything against corporate interests.
Needless to say, given the well deserved reputaion of Communist style management, I think we might be able to kiss the chinese economy good bye over the next few years..
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Rich countries don't go communist. (hippies in rich countries do but thats a moral thing, plus they can still depend on their rich country's economy... there are very very few truly self sufficient small scale communes) Communism is a economic-metabolic last-ditch-save-your-ass tactic, which allows a very poor country to hang on to its national identity and status as a world power (both are mucho importante).
During WWII Japan plundered much (most?all?) of the gold from China's treasury, leaving the country with approximately squat. Communism is essentially about sharing for the common good sans usury, and I think it's a great Idea, but unfortunately the implementations have all been excuses to force people to work on government farms without "adequate" compensation. Considering the alternative though (likely mass starvation) I'd say this use of communism is better than anarchy IN THIS CASE. If china had gone straight to a democracy after WWII, everyone would have spent their time trying to think of a solution, and the people who grew the food and built the goods would have been crushed by looting mobs. Not becuase its china, because its humans.
No nation is ever more than three meals away from a revolution.
no need, pepsi are switching sponsorship from her to other singers already coz shes not as popular anymore
I got quite a chuckle out of this bit of the BW article:
> An Internet entrepreneur in Beijing whom I called told me that we should see Yi's punishment as a sign of progress. Chinese journalists
> have landed in jail for lesser offenses.
Gotta love progress. I mean, it's nice that he hasn't been executed or anything, but when being shutdown for a few weeks is considered fortunate.... I almost feel better about living in the US. Then I realize that China is making better forward movement than the US! *shudder* I used to think it wasn't so bad living in one of the dumbest countries in the world.
As to the larger issue of restricting trade with countries which don't adhere to the same cultural values as our own, I don't see what good that does anybody. International cooperation through trade is one of the best agents for peace that's come along in the last fifty years.
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This is on par with scrupulously maintaining the distinction between the 'smart' flat earthers and the 'dumb' flat earthers.
....and those fellow travellers who can't admit to themselves and others that they have been supporting a monstrous unadulterated evil.
I'll go ahead and pass on the obvious opening for Christian bashing and move on to ask why you think it is great to stereotype and villify entire populations of countries because of the type of government they were born under?
I thought we were going to leave the Cathol ic Church out of it. (you can only ignore so many golden oppurtunities a day...:-)
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+&x
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Your comparison of children to women is quaint...when can we expect you to leave the 19th century?
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Huh?
He was saying that adult women should be treated just like adult males, as well as 'adult' children over the age of 16.
How is this quaint? Wouldn't it be quaint if he said the opposite, ie. that women should be treated differently than men?
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
To be a little redundant, this is not entirely correct. For instance, GTE (a decidedly American company) runs the phones in Romania. This wouldn't be allowed if the country were under embargo. This list looks really out of date.
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
Looks like we're going to abandon using the economic stick on the Middle Kingdom.
This is probably not a bad thing. We've done 10 years of rhetoric, threats, and even a few punishments which cost the Chinese market access in the US.
Influence on China's human rights record? Zero.
If you think that "getting tough on China" will work, think again. Chinese foreign policy is based on one principle:
China was brought low by foreigners once (the opium wars, the "unequal treaties", Shanghai being put under foreign legal jurdistiction, the "8-nation army" which put down the White Lotus sect and sacked Empress Dowager Cixi's palace, etc. etc.), This will never happen again.
The leaders of the PRC have done actions in the past and will continue to do actions in the future simply to demonstrate to each other that China will not be pushed around by foreign pressure. For example, asst. Sec of State Winston Lord's 1993 list of requests for human rights improvments were met with one of the worst years of political crackdowns since Tiananmen.
Is this frustrating? Yep. Does China need to change? Yep. Is there anything reasonable the US can do about it? Nope.
My 2 fen for today.
j.
Russia?
Is this list still in effect?
I'm kind of surprised that Russia is on there...
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
mmm, 'nuff said, good points.... however, 4.5 years is a long time and I've lived in China for the last 6 years. lot sof changes! you'll also be interested to know that it takes less than a month to get a phone, and yes, cell phones are ubiquitous
Slashdot is an open, Internet based forum. Just because it is in English doesn't mean that everyone who posts to it is necessarily in the US. China's policies towards the Internet are as important to the global Internet economy as anything that happens in the US.
Isolationism is passe...
I don't know exactly how this got rated so high, but the answer is pretty self-explanatory.
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
Because we can't really afford not to trade with China from an economic (and military) standpoint. As for Cuba, we do not need to trade with them for any particular reason, they don't export anything we couldn't get somewhere else (except great cigars..*sigh*). Not only do we not *need* to trade with Cuba, the Government for some reason still things banning trade with them will do some good. The ban is old, essentially worthless as it's not really hurting Fidel at all, and really, they're just being stupid by not lifting it. Perhaps they are too proud to admit it didn't really do alot to stop Fidel and his Communist government.
then why no lift those same embargoes against Cuba?
As I said above..we don't really *need* to trade with them..
Standing on moral ground until the market is large enough just looks very hypocritical.
And yes, you are correct, it does look hypocritical..Welcome to the US, have a nice stay.
~Steve
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~Steve
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"<r-xr-xr-x> Just try to edit me" -- www.ircnews.com
censorship is nothing new in china, and frankly i'm nto too surprised. there isn't any real need to make a big deal out of it.
...they want to be open but they just aren't ready for it big time yet. some of the older members of hte party are quite conservative, naturally they worry about the internet because it's so "free".
i hope that everhyone can understand teh position of hte chinese government nhere
please, since this article mentions something abuot normalizing trade with china, i hope that no slashdot reader is put off just because they're doing censorship in china. i'm sure that china will open up one day, but one step at a time, please.
you see china is doing a lot to open up, e.g. here in Hong Kong sar, we have a pretty free society.
Americans don't make laws. Politicians do. Rich People pay off these politicians. This lets the Rich People use the hard-working and under-paid Chinese workers while maintaining a good public image.
China has a huge population of workers. Cuba does not. China has vast natural resources. Cuba does not. China has much heavy industry. Cuba does not.
Rich People can get richer with China than Cuba. Most Americans don't give a damn either way.
China is also on the list.
Humorless sig goes here.
I do not buy chinese products, and I encourage others to do the same. Write your congressmen as well... this is not somethign to be taken lightly.
http://www.truechristiansunite.com Home of the 1st TRUE Christian AI -- Hal!!!
While I agree that China has made significant progress in the past 10 years, we still have to remember we are dealing with a country whose government is ideologically opposed to the United States.
On the plus side, China is going about with their reform in a very positive way. Unlike Russia, China is slowly moving towards a more capitalistic society... but sometimes I wonder if it's at the expense of it's citizens.
Ofcourse, if you look at recent events in the US in regards to the WTO meetings and the way the protestors were handled... perhaps we're not much different than China... and maybe we deserve eachother.
On an interesting note, it appears the the FBI considers TAIWAN a priority in counter-intelligence activities, and a hostile intelligence threat to the United States. Reno calls Taiwan an intelligence threat
Humorless sig goes here.
Next you'll tell 2+2=5 just cuz it's recognized world wide.
You couldn't get out of fucking infinite loop.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
In light of France telling Yahoo to remove Nazi items or face a ban, the USofA attempting to enact legislation against offshore Gambling houses, and now China... any other examples worth citing to further this censorship trending?
Maybe those politicans might vote different if it was _their_ kids that got run over by tanks outside the washington monument, eh?
At least with the Russians in the height of the cold war the USA had the balls to take a stand. All I see here is people knuckling under for a quick buck through more trade - and not caring about the founding principles of this country. (*cough* freedom from tyranny *ahem*).
Work with the chinese to get their human rights records in order. But don't give them any cookies until they lose the hammer and sickle.
If anyone saw The News Hour with Jim Lehrer last night, there was an excellent discussion with Harry Wu, a spokesperson for the AFL-CIO, and a spokesperson for Eastman Kodak.
The most heated debate is whether or not "Permanent Normal Trade Relations" status will make human rights (LIKE FREE SPEECH) more of a reality in China and less of a concept. Kodak argued that American companies are the ones whose pay is better, whose benefits are better, whose working conditions are better, and that Chinese workers would love to work at the Chinese based American plants. Wu argued that although conditions are better for those employees, the companies and their workers are still under Chinese law which does not allow strikes, critical government speech, and other basic human rights. The argument continued to the end of the segment.
The truth is that they're both correct. The PNTR will go through. American corporations, for as lousy as the jobs are, are offering better jobs to Chinese laborers. BUT, the Chinese government will continue it's hold on free speech that attacks the government.
Yes, GeoCities may dig some ground in the next few years, and people will say, "Oh look at China opening up." But this will happen only after the Chinese government has put into place monitoring agents and systems (be they obvious or suggestive) that will keep citizenry from expressing critical viewpoint (for more than a few days or hours).
If the controversy over Taiwan doesn't bring us to Nuclear War, over the next few years, China will see its standard of living rise, but many will inaccurately equate that with a rise in the protection of human rights. There is a big difference.
I actually was one of those people born inside a communist state. I can assure you that I wasn't engaged in calling myself an idiot or a murderer. A communist is one who actually believes and acts to advance that belief whether in word or in deed without having a gun put to his head. Thank you for the straw man, NEXT!
OTOH: I am interested in hearing your justification for the Catholic bashing. Nobody is arguing that the Catholic Church was running the death camps in WW II and certainly the Jews of the time had kind words for the pontiff's stands as a leader thumbing his nose at the Axis in the middle of their power. The accusations only started coming years later and it is sad to see off the wall bigotry like you posted above. Shame on you.
DB
China has been moving towards a more capitalistic society since the 1980's. Privately owned businesses have become the most dynamic element in the PRC's economy, and it is the government's greatest hope that these firms can grow quickly enough to soak up the millions of workers that need to be downsized from government-owned industrial concerns that desperately need reform in the years ahead. That's the great challenge for the Communist Party in China - fostering private enterprise in the commercial arena, while still maintaining control in the political one.
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This, of course, if the solutions don't cause more problems, which is historically true. Anyway, censorship in communist nations isn't exactly new.
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"Have a look at this Businessweek article: ... and this Mercury Center article ... . Surprisingly, both articles suggest that things are going better and better." Very topical; the U.S. vote on permanent normalized trade relations is scheduled for today.
Isn't it just an AMAZING coincidence that these papers just HAPPENED to run articles "suggest[ing] that things are going better", just as the vote is coming up in congress?
From time to time you may notice that something is very wrong in some part of the world, and suddenly there are a bunch of stories that say it's right, or rapidly improving. Or you may notice that everybody you know is on one side of the issue and the media talks like everybody is on the other. Or the crowds are bigger on one side of the demonstration and the media reports them as bigger on the other. Or the media reports tiny demonstrations on one side of an issue and ignores big ones on the other. Or the media reports polls that claim you, and everybody you know, are members of a tiny minority on some big issue. And you may wonder why.
And you may wonder why they bother, since EVERYBODY knows things are the other way around.
Consider this:
The congressmen live in a very sheltered environment. They're buried in their work. They almost never get back to their own districts to listen and "soak" in the opinions of their constituents. Whether at work or back home, almost everybody they talk to is trying to convince them to take a side on some issue. And they can't afford to run a LOT of polls on their own. So how do they guage their consituents opinions?
They watch the media.
If the media want to control the country's laws, they don't have to convert the voters. They just have to convince the legislators that the voters are converted. They don't have to fix things in China, they just have to convince the legislators that things are fixed. And so on.
And it's the same when the media wants the executive branch to interpret or enforce laws in some way, put pressure put on or take it off a group or a country, start or stop a war, and so on.
In the sixties they were referred to as "The Establishment Media" and treated as part of a monster. Now the phrase is rarely heard - because the people who once uttered it are members of the very establishment media they once railed against. The slant is different, but the game is the same.
"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
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Somebody needs to set up a distributed network of anonymous web proxies. That would allow people who are behind content filters installed by either their parents or a tyrranical communist regime (I know that the two are very much alike). This would allow users to view pages that would otherwise be banned by making it seem as if it came from a benign domain.
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I agree that it does seem hypocritical to stop all trade with Cuba and not China, however, China never put nuclear weapons right off our shore and pointed them at us. At least not that we know of. Also, the U.S. does not have a huge, almost militant, Chinese population stopping any sort of resolution with said country like we do with Cuba. I don't agree with trade with China because of the human rights issues. However, I do feel that "the powers that be" are hoping that increased trade with China will help to bring about the demise of the old school regime in favor of new more "western" ideas. Given the potential explosion of business and the internet in China, they might be right.
sig this
sig this
I chat with a lot of people from China, and they're always suprised to hear what Americans think life is like over there.. I ask them if it's ok to say anything they want in chat, and I've never had anyone say 'well, no, I can't talk about the government, because they'll come and kill my children.'
I believe that crappy things DO happen to dissenters in China, and I think it's wrong as wrong can be, but I wish everyone would take ANYTHING coming from the American press with a big-ass grain of salt. They (the press) are only out to make money, and writing stories about how life over there isn't that much different from life anywhere else does not pay the bills.
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Chi na bans Taiwan's Madonna
Beijing has banned one of Taiwan's top pop
stars after she sang the island's national
anthem at last Saturday's inauguration of
President Chen Shui-bian.
A-Mei, who is wildly popular on the mainland,
has been permanently blacklisted in China,
officials said.
US soft drinks giant
Coca-Cola has been
forced to drop a
multi-million dollar
advertising campaign in
China featuring A-Mei.
Sigged!
but I would imagine since Cuba is only a short boat ride away from the USA and China is way across the Pacific ocean, Cuba could pose a more serious direct threat than the Chinese.
Cuba a threat to the US? How? The only threat they ever posed to the US was as a staging ground for the Russians, which is hardly the case any more. It's not like they could invade the US is it?
Plus, wasn't the embargo placed back in the 60's when we WERE having problems with Cuba?
So we should keep it in place now? This seems to be what you're implying.
It's not the fact that they're communist moreso as to how they treat their citizens and how much of a threat they are to the USA.
From what I've read and seen Cuba, although extremely poor, does not treat its citizens badly. They get free education and health care, and in fact they produce a lot of doctors which work across South and Central America.
It looks to me like you've fallen for the anti-Red propaganda which was used during the Cold War to justify US "action" against Cuba, but which is sadly outdated today.
It's should come as no surprise that a totalitarian Marxist government pays no attention to human rights.
What I want to know is, how will the US bashers make this the US' fault?
If the Chinese government insists on such draconian penalties for web site operators, the only web content you will find in China will be officially sanctioned propaganda - in other words, of no use to anyone outside China (and of dubious value within China). China will hamper internet economy development within its own borders. China will have to decide whether it really wants to compete in this global economy or not. If not, they are only hurting themselves.
future headlines:
Vanity in Hollywood!
Pot in Amsterdam!
Greed on Wall Street!
Mounties in Canada!
/. : News for Shut-ins. Stuff that's obvious.
'Chinese products' pretty much includes everything in your house that says 'Made in Taiwan', doesn't it?
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This is right on the edge of being offtopic, but it's so facinating that I have to mention it.
There is a new-this-year TV drama called "The West Wing" that tells the story of a fictional President and his staff as they attempt to run the country.
Unlike most TV, this show is _very_ good. It has excellent writing, intelligent characters, and some real heavy-hitter actors (Martin Sheen as The President, Rob Lowe as an aide)
However, the characters in the White House in this show are a little... idealized. They're all strong-willed, highly-motivated, noble people. I've heard the characters described as "the White House Staff as they wish they were" because they're all so dammed _competent_
Thus, the characters in this TV show can be seen as almost providing an example for the real staff to aspire to. Public policy improvement by way of televised fiction!
I bring this up, because on last week's cliffhanger episode, there is a scene where a staffer is preparing questions that the President is likely to be asked at a town hall meeting. The particular issue he is wrestling with is China engagement - if "engagement" is the way to bring Communist countries into the fold, then why be so harsh to Cuba? Why the double standard?
Well, today on the way to work, I hear on the radio that a US Senator/Congressman has introduced a bill to start relaxing sanctions on Cuba, and I'll be dammed if the soundbite didn't sound like it had been lifted straight from the TV show by this particular politician.
Holy crap! Can a televised morality play really affect US foreign policy?
The concept boggles the mind. Holy media influence Batman!
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It is good to point out that American Companies operating in China will provide better working conditions. This will lead to competition and overall an improvement in human treatment. American Companies not treating workers properly will face trouble back home. Still, I fear the prospect of China doing an about face onece they get into the WTO and MFN permanent status. Once either of these is granted then taking them away will be a political nightmare.
Companies like Levi and General Motors are poised to start operations, but who is to say that later in the near term future China develops their own facilities for manufacturing these goods and either kicks the US company out or the government works against them. It could be as simple as the Chinese government declaring that workers who work for real Chinese companies are more patriotic than those who don't or implementing a special tax/levy.
We are essentially giving up much of out leverage over their economy in hops that they will follow through on their end.
Cheat on your taxes, get shot.
This Sig Intentionally left blank
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the source...
Normally, I make no comment on apparently irrelevant stories, but this is just too blatant.
Other than the fact that this article said the magic word "website", what makes this "News for Nerds"? I ask because you didn't want to post the story about tech stocks falling even though IT contained the magic word "tech".
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All my cuban cigars come from canada :)
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Forewarning, this is all IMHO and I don't have any facts to back it up, however these are some conclusions myself and others who were talking about this have came to...
First of all, the reason why the US politics is so involved with China:
The Clinton Administration recieved large amounts of funding from China during (the early part?) of his campain. Now after denying this as an influence, China has a large influence on the Presidents reputation and standing. Blackmail is a possibility. Another could be the alleged rumors of Clintions involvment with communism and his views on it. I know not what these are, but perhaps its something he believes in and is working toward. Or I could just be talking out of my ass.
China, while not nessicarily a *rich* country overall, does have some wealth, at least in its government. A highly contraverial possiblity is that while we may not like/agree with china, we do have the possiblity to make money off of these deals....though I believe that it would cost us more in the long run
Censorship:
What about it...they're a comunist country, they control the media just as business controls ours (USA). Our governemt is influenced by other governments and business and in a since is just another big business. With enough money, you can make damn near anything happen....
Sorry if I went really OT
and don't flame me for my spelling i know it sucks.
If we had began free trade with Cuba in the 1960's (instead of invading) Castro's government would have fallen very quickly or reform would have been made. American consumer goods would have flooded the cuban market and they would not have put up with a dictator like Castro for very long. Now Cuba is small and only 90 miles from the U.S. with a population of 8M (I think) China is over 5000 miles away with a population of 1.1B, and growing. While free trade will have some impact, it will be a while before we see possitive results.
Heh, and this is the most trustworthy president ever, so I don't see any problems Congressmen would have. They vote for it. Then they go to Clinton on something later, say something about tobacco or guns. His answer would merely be, "Well, that depends on what the meaning of favor is."
Hmmm, let's see: In Miami, many Cuban performers cannot perform at local theatres because of the outrage from the Cuban-exile community. I was spat upon when trying to catch a piano recital from a person who had once visited Cuba. Art studios locally have banned Cuban artists. Some have protested Borges in school libraries. Some have said that the difference here is that in China censorship is government approved and in Miami not so. Nope. The politicians here look the other way.
As a person with Hispanic and Asian roots it is doubly difficult to condemn other countries when ideals of freedom, the basis for the Constitution, are being trampled locally.
Even something as simple and innocent as a nude photograph can be prohibited here. Because of a vocal minority, a black & white nude photograph was censored from a local high school art show. Not long ago, a nude, non-erotic sculpture was also censored. Though I respect the right of a school administrator to maintain order, at what point is it crossing the line to some nightmarish Orwellian vision?
As much as I despise censorship, it is somewhat disingenuous to decry foreign violations when we (at least in Miami) are as guilty.
If anyone cares, here is a list of countries currently under embargo by the U.S.:
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cambodia, China (PRC), Cuba, Estonia, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Macao (Macau), Moldova, North Korea, Romania, Russia, Syria, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Yugoslavia (Serbia), Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam
sig this
sure. just like in Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, Mexico....
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"...I've never had anyone say 'well, no, I can't talk about the government, because they'll come and kill my children.'"
You know why you've never heard that? Because if they said it, the government would come kill their children.
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I think its quite irrational that the US is willing to put (even indirectly) China's economy on the line for a mere 9 - 10% increase in overall revenue (NPR's MarketPlace, 05/23/200). It would be better to allow the communist government to get used to the idea of growing into a kinder skin.
Haven't they considered that China may just be doing this for show, to get a better foot in on the trade scene? And if this is how its gonna be done, then I agree that Cuba should also get permanent trade status.... (maybe they can start trading Elian's[TM] in larger numbers....).
Come to think of it can't this trade thing be structured on a less permanent basis? i.e.
(a) Trade will halt if torturing of citizens start taking place again...
(b)Tradings will halt if Tawain is not allowed it's independence if they want it.
It's all about the Benjamins, baby
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...I think that site would be down for good.
Here ya go.
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I'm not trying to take a stand in China Trading issue here. But using pork barrel to exchange for votes is not new in politics. It happened during the passage of NAFTA and probably during numerous other occasions. It's not a pretty scene but it is a part of politics and democracy.
My dad, who works in Beijing, China, is a geneticist. So when the news broke that human chromosome 21 had been mapped, I sent him a link to the BBC News article on the event. He replied that he couldn't read the article in China, and asked me to email him the text. Same thing happened with the chromosome 21 article published in Nature . Had to email him the PDF.
Shhhhh!!! What else would I do in work all day if I couldn't play with my Chinese yo yo...
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Possibly off-topic but I was thinking about the trade status thing. What if the whole normalization of trade relations was just a setup for a formal recognition of Taiwan?
I think the US will vote yes on the trade status of China. After the European Union voted yes just last week, I don't see how the US could say no, just from an economic standpoint.
The human rights violation issue is irrelevent to our government, money comes first. They put up a small show to make it look like they care, but all they've done is delay what they will inevetably do. Keep in mind the United states government doesn't have a very good track record itself, the only difference is that our government typically uses a few layers of insulation. It could be simple complacency as in the case of Indonesia taking over East Timor (the US didn't care, this was in the 70's, while about 25% of the population was killed if I remember correctly). Or it could be supporting and installing leaders (dictators) and training armies as was done in central America in the 80's, and in Africa as well. Even at home, we see police operating at oppressive levels, especially in the inner city. Keeping your population subverted works differently in a "free", capitalist society: the government needs a few layers of deniability, and you rarely hear about this stuff anyway. I'll bet some readers won't even beleive what I've said, or, not understand how bad it really is.
Anyway, onto the censorship issue. Barring some cyberpunk future where corporations own the landscape, China really could become the next superpower. I can't see the US being able to change enough to maintain the lead technologically and economically. You look at all the bills being passed here (DMCA, etc), and look at how much this will stifle competition and innovation. You can't maintain a lead without these things. US corporations are just unwilling to lose some profits now for long term success.
Of course, China will have a tough go at it since they aren't a very free society. The US isn't much better, there is plenty of indoctrination and censorship used by the press, and a truly free society would be a form of anarchy anyway. Look at what they have going for them though. The largest population in the world, a population that puts education near the top of it's priority list (I mean culturally, I don't know how much the government puts into it percentage wise), and markets that haven't been developed yet. By this last item I mean that they don't have a lot of infrasturcture stuck in current or (especially) past technologies like the US and Japan do. All these things give them a lot of potential. Whether or not China can take a lead sometime in the distant future without some Democratic revolution, I don't know. I think they're the most interesting country to watch in the future.
More specifically, the CANF (Cuban American National Foundation).
:(
The CANF is a very powerful organization connected to leaders in both main US parties, who contribute and flex their political muscle all the time to keep and expand the Helms Burton Act.
It's an exile organization, that has decided that the best way to help their people is to augment their poverty even more.
They have also convinced clueless politicians, that the only way to win Florida is to support their efforts
- sigs are for wimps.
to raise a topic like this when the vote on normal trade with China is progressing?
Make this clear, without normal trade with China, the one who suffers are the people, not those in power, and not those people you hate. I you don't that's the case, go and check the history. China had closed her door for years, and general citizen suffers. The improvement of lives in China for the last 20 years make most Chinese believe that they don't want to go back to the black old days. If you would like Chinese to believe an open, democratic, liberal, free society is better, DO MORE TRADE!
Freedom of speech has been improving, so as human rights. It's still not American's standard, but no country in the world can jump to Ethopia immediately. At least, I know scholars in Beijing can discuss about China Government over a lot of issues. (Scholars are used to be the group China Government hate most). Of course, some government officials still cannot tolerate people's criticism, but their power are getting down.
Of course, I love the freedom in western countries, especially the freedom people can bash other countries, other group of people, anybody without learning some facts or history first.
A sig is redundant.
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Isn't this like them also blocking trade from us? What gives? We have to take their crappy communist products, that we don't buy because their ideals are different. They just block us out and don't take ours? Sounds great to me.
Eh...
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