The worst part about the program is the way they think of it. Basically, they have no idea that "students have computers" and "students have laptops" are TOTALLY different things. (and the survey we fill out screams that problems)
Frankly, just requiring all students to each have a computer (doesn't need to be a laptop) would work much better.
The way RPI does their program also has a number of major problems that I don't like. Basically, they shove the greatest and most expensive laptop at you (with a deal you can't refuse, so you buy their's). This causes too many students to think of their laptop as their "only" computer. Laptops should be "secondary computers". They're not as safe/reliable as desktops, and you shouldn't be restricted to them. Also, they offer two ways to get this laptop. You can buy it ($2500) or lease it (for 2 years). They "recommend" the lease, so most of the mindless minions lease. If you actually run the numbers, it costs pretty much the same amount to lease as to buy. So, after 2 years everyone returns their machines for new ones, and RPI gets back a ton of machines.
Last rant... They also treat you like "they" own your computer. That's just the general feeling I get from some of the support systems in place.
Personally, I'd like to see a KDE2 port to IRIX, built with the MipsPro compiler. Frankly, the compiler is friendly to pretty much all code, and the only problems I run into are configure scripts, and occasional gcc'isms.
(Qt is designed to compile on everything, BTW)
Actually, the biggest problem compiling these things under IRIX is not the compiler, but the configure scripts. configure just loves to slap a "-L/usr/lib" in front of cc during it's compile tests. First of all, this is stupid (that's a default path), and second of all it breaks the compile under IRIX. You see, IRIX has 3 library versions (o32, n32, 64), with "n32" as the recommended binary format (except for math stuff). So, the libraries I want are in "/usr/lib32". If it didn't do those stupid things ("-L/usr/lib"), it would configure perfectly! Besides, I still have beefs with configure assuming you should have gcc unless you explicitly say otherwise.
(Frankly, on non-x86, the commercial compilers are far better than gcc)
In the electronics club at RPI, where I go to school, we've begun collecting old computers. (no not personal/home computers) From the DEC side, we've got:
VAXstation 3100
VAXstation 4 (not mentioned anywhere online, but similar shape to the VS II)
...and...
the VAX 8530
Yes, the 8530 is a big VAX, with a TU81+ tape drive, a minicomputer console, and some random hard drives. Since we need an OS, anyone know where we can get VMS (or Ultrix) for the thing? It needs a special 5-1/4 floppy (for bootstrapping) and a 6250bpi tape to boot/install the OS. We've already run the 3-phase power lines, and powered it up;)
Soon, we hope to run some kind of VAXcluster:)
(we also have a bunch of old Sun systems, but that's besides the point)
What everyone fails to realize, is that those systems continued to exist throughout the era of the PC. It's amazing how many people don't know that the PC has "not" been the be-all/end-all of computing in the past 10-15 years. Heck, until 4-5 years ago, the PC was an utter piece of crap compared to your average UNIX machines.
Look at some of what I've been using lately and the dates of manufacture:
Sun SparcStation IPX '92
IBM RS/6000 POWERstation 350 '92
SGI Indigo2 Impact '96
These WERE within the "era of the PC", are absolutely not PCs, and run UNIX in all it's multi-user, networked glory.
We never moved from high-end/UNIX to PC/Mac and then back. Both worlds existed in parallel, with very little communication between the two.
Remember, no matter how "dumbed down" or "RedHat broken" Linux may become, FreeBSD will still exist as the "alternative" open source OS. It's designed around users who know what they're doing and has no desire to cater to idiots. To quote a friend of mine:
"Linux is for people who hate Windows."
"FreeBSD is for people that like UNIX."
Why PDF? I'll tell you! PDF is the STANDARD format for online technical datasheets. Go to the webside of ANY company that manufactures semiconductor products and try to get datasheets. They're all in PDF.
The reason gas prices in Europe are so much higher is because of OPEC. Europe depends on the middle east for it's crude oil.
In the US, we produce a good amount of our own oil in Texas, Alaska, and probably some other places. Because if this, we are not as dependent on OPEC for all our gas, which lowers cost.
Linux has a long way to go before it hits the mainstream? Well, that may be true about the "desktop", but NOT the server!
Ever use any other UNIX platforms? Linux is actually the easiest to get going out of the box, because so much crap is preloaded.
Solaris is a very popular server OS (on Sun hardware), and isn't "Windows user-friendly". Once could say the same about almost any UNIX platform that REAL servers run. Linux is actually pretty easy of an OS to use as 'nixes run.
Although I keep wondering why FreeBSD keeps getting ignored. FreeBSD makes a really nice server OS, and has it's own zealots too (many of whom are professional sysadmins, and not college students). Oh, and FreeBSD is actually a *faster* OS than Linux.
Judging by the shape of the monitor, the window border on the screenshot, and the color scheme, it's gotta be a Sun Solaris box running CDE.
This is a really annoying problem I keep running into... Too many people think either "non-Windows == Linux", or "UNIX == Linux".
In my room at times, I've had Linux in the center, AIX off to the left, and Solaris on the right. If people get to the point of realizing the GUI "ain't Windows", they usually just think it's Linux until I correct them.
Linux has done great things in the way of spurring all kinds of 'nix software development and letting people recognize the existance of UNIX as something other than "what the ancient machines used". However, not enough people seem to make the jump to realizing that the 'nix world is much larger than anti-MS people installing Linux on their PC.
I didn't dis MacOS itself. I basically said "Why the hell would you want to run MacOS on an RS/6000?" Remember that this is "POWER, and not "PowerPC". It is not an end-user targeted CPU.
IBM does make RS/6000 machines with PPC processors, but they are faster than Macs due to better chipsets. The PPC is actually a subset of the POWER arch, however all high-end rs6k's are POWER-based.
Remeber, the POWER4 is "NOT" a PC processor. It's target platform is high-end RS/6000 machines. Think "big iron". I'll bet that's a mid-range configuration.
First of all... Why the hell would you want to run Mac OS X on the thing? Actually, I have to say the same about Linux unless it's drastically improved in the next year.
This is a POWER processor, and it belongs in an IBM RS/6000 machine running AIX. If IBM markets like usual, there will be nothing flashy about it, and few will know of it, but it will kick the crap out of anything Sun can produce.
Also, if the clock speed is released, you must remember that it is really irrelevant for comparing POWER to x86. Why? Well, I've got these two machines sitting next to my desktop. One is a Pentium 100MHz running FreeBSD, and the other is a POWERstation 350 (41MHz POWER CPU) running AIX. A week ago, I ran a floating point benchmark, and the PS350 was faster than the P-100 (and that was with gcc, which sucks on AIX more than any other platform).
Also, AIX redefines the term "industrial strength". It's not really BSD-nix or SysV-nix, but kinda a random hack of the two, feeling more BSD, but it has really good system management tools, since it has plenty of non-standard commands for things like resizing filesystems and stuff (yes, on the fly, no rebooting).
Anyways, here's something I'm working on:
AIX Airlines You arrive at what the map said was the airport, however it looks a lot more like a massive industrial complex. You check in at a counter staffed with men all wearing a black tie and white shirt uniform. Then, you get on a tram that takes you to the terminal. You quickly notice that AIX Airlines is flying both brand new aircraft, and planes dating back to the 50's. When you arrive at your gate, you notice that the aircraft is huge and painted blue. It only has 4 engines, however it is easily three times the size of a 747. You notice workers using massive cranes loading up the aircraft with everything from industrial equipment to parcel shipments.
You eventually board the aircraft and settle into your seat. When looking up, you quickly notice that there is a 3-digit numerical display where you would expect the fasten-seatbelt and no-smoking lights. Special trucks push the aircraft away from the gate, and help it taxi onto the runway. Then, several more vehicles and mechanics arrive to strap on a pair of rocket boosters to the wings. You notice that they have not yet started the engine, as the captain announces that you have been cleared for takeoff. Then the rocket engines fire, causing the aircraft to throttle up and take off from the runway. At 1000 feet, the engines start up and the rockets drop away into the ocean. The 3-digit display begins displaying seemingly random numbers, however the stewardess is passing out the "AC/800 Aircraft Passenger Service Manual" which describes them. Four hours later, the captain announces that the aircraft has reached cruising altitude. You see a guy named Smitty carrying a pile of forms from the cockpit, and the plane suddenly throttles up to Mach 6.
AIX airlines only flies intercontinental, however they have the lowest fares, since each flight carries 6,000 passengers, and thousands of tons of cargo.
When designing computers back in the good 'ole days, IBM realized that some disgruntled employee might throw the thing out the window. They made the computer to survive the fall. I've got an old RS/6000 next to me, also build like a rock. Maybe not as much as an XT, but still so. What's really solid, though, are 10-year-old IBM "workstation" monitors. The thing's practically just as good/solid on image quality as a *new* Sony Trinitron, even though it's 1280x1024@60Hz, and weighs a ton. The 17" is labeled 40lbs, and the 19" is labeled 80lbs. (the 17" feels like 60-70lbs)
Unfortunatly, those labs at RPI (VCC North and South) are now full of IBM IntelliStations running Windows NT. They moved the SGI Indys to the Library and the JEC building.
Now, this summer, they're begun to filter out older UNIX machines (out of labs to other places), replacing them with newer ones from other labs that they're turning into "laptop labs".:(
I have to disagree. This might be true for idiot programmers, but not people with potential.
I started programming in BASIC, then when I was around 12, I went away for the summer to "Computer-Ed High Tech Camps" (Newton, MA) There, I learned Pascal in a relaxing environment. I messed around with it over the year, and the following summer I learned C (and some C++). I am not a bad programmer, and I often write very clean looking code. Let's just say that I worked on writing an IRC client in 10th grade. I did it in Linux, for X Windows, using the Qt library. I'm in college now, and have probably been programming for much longer than most of my friends. C/C++ are definitely not for absolute beginners, however BASIC teaches spaghetti code. BASIC is good for starting, as long as it's treated as a "learning language" or stepping stone. LOGO is a joke. I was taught LOGO after I learned BASIC, then deemed LOGO a useless pain and went back to my AppleSoft BASIC coding.
(The interesting thing is that I wound up majoring in Computer Engineering, not Computer Science. I guess I like electronics as well)
Only quad-boot? You wimp!:) I have no less than 6 OSs on my desktop. Yes, that's "six"! Let me list... Windows '98 SE Windows 2000 Linux Mandrake 6.1 FreeBSD 4.0 Solaris 7 BeOS 4.5
(I use Linux 90% of the time on my desktop)
Oh, and that's just my desktop:) I've also got my server running FreeBSD and a Sun Sparc IPX running Solaris 2.6 next to me. And that doesn't even count the machines I "could" net-boot off the server:)
The filename is: "LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs" ? Has anyone forgotten that in the idiotic way Windows is configured by default, the ".vbs" is truncated if the type is associated?
Now any of us turn off this "feature" the moment we touch Windows, but the average idiot doesn't know about it. So, the file would look like a ".TXT" file to most, and they would open it without thinking twice.
As much as we're all excited about the rising of Linux and the falling of Microsoft, for some reason these factors are being completely ignored in many cases. People are still switching to windows in hoards, unfortunately. I hear about UNIX->NT more often than NT->UNIX.
Also, at RPI where I go to school, it's getting worse. Most of the main computer labs used to be all UNIX (SGI and Sun), and now they're Windows machines. We also now have a mandatory laptop program for incoming freshman (IBM Thinkpads with Win98) that's turning everyone slowly into Windows-junkies. We still have several good UNIX labs, but you NEVER see anyone but upperclassmen and grads using them (except for myself and maybe one or two other people). We did recently get a very good deal from Sun on a huge load of Ultra 10's, but the all went to "special people" labs and offices, so the undergrads don't even see them. It quite easy to graduate from this school today without even touching UNIX. At least our ACM chapter straight UNIX/non-Windows. Our fights are mostly Linux vs. BSD.
Yeah, Netscape makes money off their server software. Even though no one has heard of Netscape Enterprise server in years, one day I went around and checked HTTP headers on webservers for the heck of it, and many are actually running on Netscape's server software.
Slashdot Mirror
The worst part about the program is the way they think of it. Basically, they have no idea that "students have computers" and "students have laptops" are TOTALLY different things. (and the survey we fill out screams that problems)
Frankly, just requiring all students to each have a computer (doesn't need to be a laptop) would work much better.
The way RPI does their program also has a number of major problems that I don't like. Basically, they shove the greatest and most expensive laptop at you (with a deal you can't refuse, so you buy their's). This causes too many students to think of their laptop as their "only" computer. Laptops should be "secondary computers". They're not as safe/reliable as desktops, and you shouldn't be restricted to them. Also, they offer two ways to get this laptop. You can buy it ($2500) or lease it (for 2 years). They "recommend" the lease, so most of the mindless minions lease. If you actually run the numbers, it costs pretty much the same amount to lease as to buy. So, after 2 years everyone returns their machines for new ones, and RPI gets back a ton of machines.
Last rant... They also treat you like "they" own your computer. That's just the general feeling I get from some of the support systems in place.
Personally, I'd like to see a KDE2 port to IRIX, built with the MipsPro compiler. Frankly, the compiler is friendly to pretty much all code, and the only problems I run into are configure scripts, and occasional gcc'isms.
(Qt is designed to compile on everything, BTW)
Actually, the biggest problem compiling these things under IRIX is not the compiler, but the configure scripts. configure just loves to slap a "-L/usr/lib" in front of cc during it's compile tests. First of all, this is stupid (that's a default path), and second of all it breaks the compile under IRIX. You see, IRIX has 3 library versions (o32, n32, 64), with "n32" as the recommended binary format (except for math stuff). So, the libraries I want are in "/usr/lib32". If it didn't do those stupid things ("-L/usr/lib"), it would configure perfectly! Besides, I still have beefs with configure assuming you should have gcc unless you explicitly say otherwise.
(Frankly, on non-x86, the commercial compilers are far better than gcc)
While SGI's MIPS CPUs aren't all that high on clock speed, they still manage good performance.
;)
My 175MHz R10000 (1MB L2 cache) manages to crunch a SETI@Home packet in only 9 hours. I like my Indigo2
Since MIPS does a lot per clock, one can only imagine the performance of such a core clocked at 1 GHz.
In the electronics club at RPI, where I go to school, we've begun collecting old computers. (no not personal/home computers) From the DEC side, we've got: ;)
:)
VAXstation 3100
VAXstation 4 (not mentioned anywhere online, but similar shape to the VS II)
...and...
the VAX 8530
Yes, the 8530 is a big VAX, with a TU81+ tape drive, a minicomputer console, and some random hard drives. Since we need an OS, anyone know where we can get VMS (or Ultrix) for the thing? It needs a special 5-1/4 floppy (for bootstrapping) and a 6250bpi tape to boot/install the OS. We've already run the 3-phase power lines, and powered it up
Soon, we hope to run some kind of VAXcluster
(we also have a bunch of old Sun systems, but that's besides the point)
This is what most people think...
What everyone fails to realize, is that those systems continued to exist throughout the era of the PC. It's amazing how many people don't know that the PC has "not" been the be-all/end-all of computing in the past 10-15 years. Heck, until 4-5 years ago, the PC was an utter piece of crap compared to your average UNIX machines.
Look at some of what I've been using lately and the dates of manufacture:
Sun SparcStation IPX '92
IBM RS/6000 POWERstation 350 '92
SGI Indigo2 Impact '96
These WERE within the "era of the PC", are absolutely not PCs, and run UNIX in all it's multi-user, networked glory.
We never moved from high-end/UNIX to PC/Mac and then back. Both worlds existed in parallel, with very little communication between the two.
Remember, no matter how "dumbed down" or "RedHat broken" Linux may become, FreeBSD will still exist as the "alternative" open source OS. It's designed around users who know what they're doing and has no desire to cater to idiots. To quote a friend of mine:
"Linux is for people who hate Windows."
"FreeBSD is for people that like UNIX."
Why PDF? I'll tell you! PDF is the STANDARD format for online technical datasheets. Go to the webside of ANY company that manufactures semiconductor products and try to get datasheets. They're all in PDF.
What the hell does this have to do with Beowulf?
This is about running Linux on BIG machines which can be called small supercomputers in and of themselves.
The reason gas prices in Europe are so much higher is because of OPEC. Europe depends on the middle east for it's crude oil.
In the US, we produce a good amount of our own oil in Texas, Alaska, and probably some other places. Because if this, we are not as dependent on OPEC for all our gas, which lowers cost.
Linux has a long way to go before it hits the mainstream? Well, that may be true about the "desktop", but NOT the server!
Ever use any other UNIX platforms? Linux is actually the easiest to get going out of the box, because so much crap is preloaded.
Solaris is a very popular server OS (on Sun hardware), and isn't "Windows user-friendly". Once could say the same about almost any UNIX platform that REAL servers run. Linux is actually pretty easy of an OS to use as 'nixes run.
Although I keep wondering why FreeBSD keeps getting ignored. FreeBSD makes a really nice server OS, and has it's own zealots too (many of whom are professional sysadmins, and not college students). Oh, and FreeBSD is actually a *faster* OS than Linux.
Judging by the shape of the monitor, the window border on the screenshot, and the color scheme, it's gotta be a Sun Solaris box running CDE.
This is a really annoying problem I keep running into... Too many people think either "non-Windows == Linux", or "UNIX == Linux".
In my room at times, I've had Linux in the center, AIX off to the left, and Solaris on the right. If people get to the point of realizing the GUI "ain't Windows", they usually just think it's Linux until I correct them.
Linux has done great things in the way of spurring all kinds of 'nix software development and letting people recognize the existance of UNIX as something other than "what the ancient machines used". However, not enough people seem to make the jump to realizing that the 'nix world is much larger than anti-MS people installing Linux on their PC.
Yes, everyone thought the PowerPC would be the future. Then they put it in a Macintosh.
If you want a powerful PowerPC machine, you go out and buy an IBM RS/6000. Then again, it's not a "consumer product."
I didn't dis MacOS itself. I basically said "Why the hell would you want to run MacOS on an RS/6000?" Remember that this is "POWER, and not "PowerPC". It is not an end-user targeted CPU.
Remember, POWER != PowerPC
IBM does make RS/6000 machines with PPC processors, but they are faster than Macs due to better chipsets. The PPC is actually a subset of the POWER arch, however all high-end rs6k's are POWER-based.
Remeber, the POWER4 is "NOT" a PC processor. It's target platform is high-end RS/6000 machines. Think "big iron". I'll bet that's a mid-range configuration.
First of all... Why the hell would you want to run Mac OS X on the thing? Actually, I have to say the same about Linux unless it's drastically improved in the next year.
This is a POWER processor, and it belongs in an IBM RS/6000 machine running AIX. If IBM markets like usual, there will be nothing flashy about it, and few will know of it, but it will kick the crap out of anything Sun can produce.
Also, if the clock speed is released, you must remember that it is really irrelevant for comparing POWER to x86. Why? Well, I've got these two machines sitting next to my desktop. One is a Pentium 100MHz running FreeBSD, and the other is a POWERstation 350 (41MHz POWER CPU) running AIX. A week ago, I ran a floating point benchmark, and the PS350 was faster than the P-100 (and that was with gcc, which sucks on AIX more than any other platform).
Also, AIX redefines the term "industrial strength". It's not really BSD-nix or SysV-nix, but kinda a random hack of the two, feeling more BSD, but it has really good system management tools, since it has plenty of non-standard commands for things like resizing filesystems and stuff (yes, on the fly, no rebooting).
Anyways, here's something I'm working on:
AIX Airlines
You arrive at what the map said was the airport, however
it looks a lot more like a massive industrial complex. You check
in at a counter staffed with men all wearing a black tie and white shirt
uniform. Then, you get on a tram that takes you to the terminal.
You quickly notice that AIX Airlines is flying both brand new aircraft,
and planes dating back to the 50's. When you arrive at your gate,
you notice that the aircraft is huge and painted blue. It only has
4 engines, however it is easily three times the size of a 747. You
notice workers using massive cranes loading up the aircraft with everything
from industrial equipment to parcel shipments.
You eventually board the aircraft and settle into
your seat. When looking up, you quickly notice that there is a 3-digit
numerical display where you would expect the fasten-seatbelt and no-smoking
lights. Special trucks push the aircraft away from the gate, and
help it taxi onto the runway. Then, several more vehicles and mechanics
arrive to strap on a pair of rocket boosters to the wings. You notice
that they have not yet started the engine, as the captain announces that
you have been cleared for takeoff. Then the rocket engines fire,
causing the aircraft to throttle up and take off from the runway.
At 1000 feet, the engines start up and the rockets drop away into the ocean.
The 3-digit display begins displaying seemingly random numbers,
however the stewardess is passing out the "AC/800 Aircraft Passenger
Service Manual" which describes them. Four hours later, the
captain announces that the aircraft has reached cruising altitude.
You see a guy named Smitty carrying a pile of forms from the cockpit, and
the plane suddenly throttles up to Mach 6.
AIX airlines only flies intercontinental, however
they have the lowest fares, since each flight carries 6,000 passengers,
and thousands of tons of cargo.
When designing computers back in the good 'ole days, IBM realized that some disgruntled employee might throw the thing out the window. They made the computer to survive the fall. I've got an old RS/6000 next to me, also build like a rock. Maybe not as much as an XT, but still so. What's really solid, though, are 10-year-old IBM "workstation" monitors. The thing's practically just as good/solid on image quality as a *new* Sony Trinitron, even though it's 1280x1024@60Hz, and weighs a ton. The 17" is labeled 40lbs, and the 19" is labeled 80lbs. (the 17" feels like 60-70lbs)
Unfortunatly, those labs at RPI (VCC North and South) are now full of IBM IntelliStations running Windows NT. They moved the SGI Indys to the Library and the JEC building.
:(
Now, this summer, they're begun to filter out older UNIX machines (out of labs to other places), replacing them with newer ones from other labs that they're turning into "laptop labs".
I have to disagree. This might be true for idiot programmers, but not people with potential.
I started programming in BASIC, then when I was around 12, I went away for the summer to "Computer-Ed High Tech Camps" (Newton, MA) There, I learned Pascal in a relaxing environment. I messed around with it over the year, and the following summer I learned C (and some C++). I am not a bad programmer, and I often write very clean looking code. Let's just say that I worked on writing an IRC client in 10th grade. I did it in Linux, for X Windows, using the Qt library. I'm in college now, and have probably been programming for much longer than most of my friends.
C/C++ are definitely not for absolute beginners, however BASIC teaches spaghetti code. BASIC is good for starting, as long as it's treated as a "learning language" or stepping stone. LOGO is a joke. I was taught LOGO after I learned BASIC, then deemed LOGO a useless pain and went back to my AppleSoft BASIC coding.
(The interesting thing is that I wound up majoring in Computer Engineering, not Computer Science. I guess I like electronics as well)
Actually, I have 2 hard drives... Linux and Solaris are on the 8GB drive, and everything else is on the 27GB drive.
Only quad-boot? You wimp! :)
:) I've also got my server running FreeBSD and a Sun Sparc IPX running Solaris 2.6 next to me. And that doesn't even count the machines I "could" net-boot off the server :)
I have no less than 6 OSs on my desktop. Yes, that's "six"! Let me list...
Windows '98 SE
Windows 2000
Linux Mandrake 6.1
FreeBSD 4.0
Solaris 7
BeOS 4.5
(I use Linux 90% of the time on my desktop)
Oh, and that's just my desktop
The filename is: "LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs" ?
Has anyone forgotten that in the idiotic way Windows is configured by default, the ".vbs" is truncated if the type is associated?
Now any of us turn off this "feature" the moment we touch Windows, but the average idiot doesn't know about it. So, the file would look like a ".TXT" file to most, and they would open it without thinking twice.
As much as we're all excited about the rising of Linux and the falling of Microsoft, for some reason these factors are being completely ignored in many cases. People are still switching to windows in hoards, unfortunately. I hear about UNIX->NT more often than NT->UNIX.
Also, at RPI where I go to school, it's getting worse. Most of the main computer labs used to be all UNIX (SGI and Sun), and now they're Windows machines. We also now have a mandatory laptop program for incoming freshman (IBM Thinkpads with Win98) that's turning everyone slowly into Windows-junkies. We still have several good UNIX labs, but you NEVER see anyone but upperclassmen and grads using them (except for myself and maybe one or two other people). We did recently get a very good deal from Sun on a huge load of Ultra 10's, but the all went to "special people" labs and offices, so the undergrads don't even see them. It quite easy to graduate from this school today without even touching UNIX.
At least our ACM chapter straight UNIX/non-Windows. Our fights are mostly Linux vs. BSD.
Yeah, Netscape makes money off their server software. Even though no one has heard of Netscape Enterprise server in years, one day I went around and checked HTTP headers on webservers for the heck of it, and many are actually running on Netscape's server software.
How did I know you went to RPI when I saw you mentioning ProE? :)
-Derek (RPI, CSYS, class of 2003)