I lol'd at the insurance bit, that would be so sad, might be time to start up my own internet, maybe the government can give me some of that stimulus so I can make an internet for the more competent among us.
Yeah because strangers in a college late at night should have the right not to be questioned about who they are, yeah or maybe you should have read the fine print before you came on the campus, note as well it is private property. Their land, their rules, I see nothing wrong with the person asking who you were, maybe if you weren't an asshole or lied to them they wouldn't have given you any shit. The right attitude will get you a lot further than the wrong one will.
1. I'm sure but I don't want to spend 20 mins to format it. I'll throw in some numbers to correlate if that helps you.
2. I'm sure they want to get at the millions of nothing that I have, considering the fact that it's going to be free, you are trying to act like everyone is out to get you and get rich, well sorry but that's not really the case, most people/companies aren't going to care if your not limiting their sales and your not making any money.
4. ftp, udp, basically any protocol
5. Doubtful anyone would be able to download it then, which is not the case, it's even on standalone players.
6. I guess if you don't use those protocols then you don't violate anything.
7. It's all good.
8. Borg maturation chamber
9. Then by your own defintion lat and speed correlate.
10. Because I can do it in the same window and requires no coding on my part to make it functional, like I said as well earlier I'd like to see it do 30 folders +subs and files with no java, flash or any other junk like that, drag and drop.
11. Well people connect to the server if there is an empty slot, so say you have 10 slots, 9 of said 10 slots are full, meaning 1 slot left, only 1 person can fill that slot, they connect to the server fill the slot and *then* they download the map, no one else can fill that slot, you actually have to be on that slot to start the download, that's how most games work, can't think of any that don't. Here is an example of pricing.
12. Uh because it uses double the resources?
13. That's what automation is for, if that number is even right, which I doubt, and it only takes one to get it right. Besides not all games are that big, some use numbers only, and some use letters and numbers, it all depends.
14. Maybe one of their employees did it, just because it's a business doesn't make them honest.
watching grass grow Didn't say it wouldn't be boring, besides how about you cite how taking a picture of something else that is copyrighted makes the image not yours
Not all of them are, some are for download, next time read the list
They still offer it for free
Sure but the software is free
And what about the site with the 14,000 free apps on it, didn't say anything about that
Huh?
I knew you would say java, and java sucks, even though it's free, lol. And I'm not talking about lat, I'm talking about using it, and yes you can use ssh for file transfer which would require speed.
Slots cost money, besides the more slots you have the more load you put on the server, therefore costing you more money, and no you can't run two servers because that doubles your cost for no reason.
How do you know it's not been registered? Have you heard of a keygen? Or maybe they say it's new in box and they just re-shrink wrapped it.
That's fine, just don't say I get 6mb and then only give me 2mb as thats a jip.
Either your just trolling or you really mean what you say in that post
The solutions that I provided are just as worthless as the excuses that an incompetent Internet service provider might give. Devil's advocacy is a common exercise of brainstorming to find counter-arguments so that their refutations can strengthen your argument. If it's looked down upon to consider how opponents are likely to reply, how can any argument be made strong?
True
Homemade as in I took it with my own camera, or is a freinds picture, or I made it myself
Copyright in your own photograph of a sculpture made since 1923 belongs to the sculptor, not you.
Not sure about that one, but if I take a picture of the sky, or make something entirely new with ms paint or something or another, that'd be mine...
homemade [movie], as in I made it, I own it
If a homemade movie can be shown to be a homemade derivative work of something else that you did not make, you don't in fact own copyright in the homemade movie. For example, a video of your child dancing to copyrighted music isn't yours unless you dub in different music. See Derivative work.
What if there is no music? lol and fair use would probably preside there as long as you're not selling it or publically displaying it for everyone to see. But say I make a video of myself mowing my lawn, that'd be mine, lol.
Homemade [music] you know what that means right?
It means you made a homemade recording of some song, but you can't necessarily prove that someone else didn't write the song first.
Neither can they, if you wanna play that game.
but back to what I was talking about, are in fact games that are free not stolen
Can you show me some examples of these free, not-stolen games? Several popular PC games released as free software infringe at least one copyright or patent. For example, StepMania 3.9 includes music and graphics ripped from Konami's DDRMAX: Dance Dance Revolution 6th Mix, and Konami has taken a StepMania licensee to court (Konami v. Roxor) over essential patents on dance video games.
Any free software that can, for example, encode MP3 audio violates U.S. patents because Thomson has never licensed the MP3 patents in a way consistent with the free software definition.
I'm pretty sure encoding is fine, its decoders that you have to pay for, but I can't exactly remember off hand.
ogg xvid pidgin
maybe something here "Free Downloads of over 14000 free software programs."
So what happens when I get sent so many packets that I either can't send and/or recieve them fast enough therefore causing me to lag, what then?
You don't request as many packets from the servers. Most video games that I know of don't use a lot of packets; instead, like VoIP, they use fewer packets but expect them to arrive quickly.
Quickly as in speed, if they cut that down then it's not gonna work very well, like I said I don't want to be stuck doing 1 thing at a time, I might be grabbing a game, up
Either your just trolling or you really mean what you say in that post, either way I shall respond to you just to clairfy what I meant for those that (obviously) don't understand.
We have a transparent caching proxy to speed up HTTP video delivery. caching system. You mentioned that you watch thousands of videos on video sharing sites every day; we cache the most popular videos so that we can feed them to you faster.
Good so long as I can watch Like a boss for the 50th time today with no lag I'm good.
How about sharing homemade pictures
Protocols other than HTTP don't have a well-defined takedown statute. So to save our behinds from being sued by the sculptors' union when you share photos of copyrighted sculptures without permission, we throttle other protocols.
Homemade as in I took it with my own camera, or is a freinds picture, or I made it myself, I said nothing about copyrighted.
movies
Using major label background music and/or characters without permission.
Again I said homemade, as in I made it, I own it, I'm not talking about hollywood here...
music
Subconsciously lifted from a major label song. Just ask George Harrison's widow. (Or what technique would you recommend to determine whether or not a given series of notes is copyrighted to someone else before you publish it?)
Homemade you know what that means right?
free games
Video game consoles don't have free games. In fact, they use cryptographic mechanisms to lock out the use of copylefted software.
When was I talking about consoles? But since you want to, consoles do have demos which are free, but back to what I was talking about, are in fact games that are free not stolen, the idea does exist, now you've heard of it.
software
Which violates patents on algorithms.
Um there's free software around, trials, demos, donations, completely free, again nothing said about stolen.
not to mention playing games
Most games need latency guarantees more than bandwidth guarantees. Limiting bandwidth allows our routers to respond more quickly to your packets.
So what happens when I get sent so many packets that I either can't send and/or recieve them fast enough therefore causing me to lag, what then?
uploading other types of files not via http, how about ftp, ssh
If you are using for purposes other than home entertainment, try upgrading to our business-class service designed for teleworkers.
That is home entertainment, ftp so I can upload files to sites, ssh so I can login to other servers, like say for a website for both, just cause you do find that fun doesn't mean other people don't.
Some of the several games I play the maps can be 50 megs or bigger
Then download them the night before you play.
What the hell? Ok let me further explain, said servers also server the maps at random and can't always be downloaded independently, and if you idle on the server you get kicked/banned, how do you imagine I get them then, also in other said games, the games are at random times and can be any sort of map, what do I do then, these rules they are trying to enforce are completely arbitrary not to mention that their (or yours whatever the case may be) solutions to said problems are completely worthless.
several full games are easily greater than 2 gigs, most being around
They want to cap me to 1/3, then I'm only going to pay 1/3 of my bill. Sure they want to blame (illegal) file sharing for the increase, but that's not the only thing that uses large amounts of bandwidth.
How about sharing homemade pictures, movies, music, free games, software, etc, not to mention playing games, uploading other types of files not via http, how about ftp, ssh, some other network, etc...
Some of the several games I play the maps can be 50 megs or bigger, the same goes with patches, hell I've seen some patches that are bigger than a couple hundred megs, oh and what about demo's and such, not to mention getting full games, like through say steam or some other provider, a demo I got was like 600 megs, and several full games are easily greater than 2 gigs, most being around 4 gigs or so, so gaming is easily an excuse (not that you should need one in the first place) for using high amounts of bandwidth and transfer.
At least they aren't complete idiots from what I read and don't throttle http, because then how am I supposed to watch my 10,000 youtube videos per day?
Oh and don't get me started on them investing in a better infrastructure, no no that'd cut into their precious bonus's to much, that's one reason right there that most if not all suits (read executives) will ever have any respect from me, because to them it's all about their bonus's and the grunts (read anyone below them) are only fodder for their meat grinders.
Well if they only give you 100gb and charge you more for over, then why the hell would they want to throttle you, if anything they'd want to give you a faster connection to make you more likely to go over and thus make for money for them. This kind of business strategy is shite, thankfully in my area things are opening up and you have more choices to pick from who you want to be with, though if they all do it then you don't really get a choice, but it's unlikely they'd all try to do it at the same time.
Hopefully one of these days soon they'll (providers) figure out that were not fodder for their meat grinders, just so they can make more money (read bonus's) when a customer has choices and you treat them wrong, they'll usually go somewhere else, I know I would. Just my 2 cents.
Uh yeah buddy whats your proof, sounds like you're full of shit to me. People would not still be talking about this had it been resolved. Point and case.
I understand me and my roommate at the time could never play sc at the same time on our home's cable line because of that problem, it sucked, one at a time or not at all, lan play sure no problems, but with sc2 with no lan support sounds rediculous, and just to cut back on piracy? Even dumber, because if people want it they *will* find a way and leave the rest of us screwed, even the legit people that are going to buy it get screwed, the people that wouldn't buy it anyways, well who cares about them:P I mean they can just go play on a pvpgn server anyways so still no loss there, which may be the end result of you not including lan support is to run a pvpgn server locally which is still a hassle for the lazy people and shouldn't be necessary.
You may think you're thwarting piracy is this stupid move, but really you're just hassling people who should have this from the get go with no workarounds...
Like my dad says if a crook wants something bad enough, it doesn't matter how many locks or what kinds of locks you put on there, if they want it they are going to take it by any means
I am paranoid enough that I don't want any internet enabled extraction of money from my bank account
I'm pretty sure if you have a bank account that anyone can get at your money, given enough details. So how does your debit card work then? If you use one that is. Also what about electronic transfer when you use a check? A lot of business do that to save time and check that you actually have the funds you say you do. Welcome to the 21st century...
Hey when they first came out I really wanted one to like a bunch of other people I knew, then I started learning about the draw back to having one, some of which may seem petty to you but aren't to me, I have lots of people send me picture messages and whatever, nope can't do that they have to 'email' them, well thats a fucking waste of time trying to tell everyone that, I had asked my mom who has one if she got my mms she said no I had to email it, I was like wtf? Pass. Can only use bluetooth with headsets? Pass. Draconian app store? Pass. 500 'updates' a month? Pass. Lastly but not leastly you can't get insurance on them through your provider... Big pass, I mean the entire screen is breakable which can ruin the phone, best policy is better safe than sorry...
Least someone gets my point, yes I understand it costs money to maintain an infrastructure of any kind, but regardless of whether you use a little bit or a lot or even none some months they are still making a profit of some sort, they are just trying to continue to make money even if you start spending less, like it's going to make up for it, more than likely push people to go off the grid completely and in case of emergency just use a generator, that'd be a good goal there.
And at any rate for the few people that go 'green' and the minimal power they use, they can just be subsidized by the people that don't, the power company isn't really taking that huge of a loss, now say if like 75% or more people were doing this I could understand the fee being imposted, but I'm sure it's not a huge percentage.
It just come down to the corporate execs making sure they get their bonus's, wouldn't want them to only be able to get 5 cars and 2 boats, instead of 10 cars and 5 boats./sarcasm
Ok so it would almost be understandable if you weren't using any electricity at all for several months from 'the grid' a fee then would sort of make sense, but what happens when you start using the grid again, does that fee go away, or do the greed mongers keep charging you? At that point it's not fair to charge you that fee when you are spending money using 'the grid' power. Either way these bastards are still making money hand over fist, why they gotta pick on the little guy *trying* to save some cash, or go green, or whatever the reason...
Slashdot Mirror
Man you're pretty funny.
Anyhow, sure public schools are, but thats not what I was talking about, nor was it mentioned that it was a public school.
At any rate though you still can't do as you please, regardless of the case.
That's what the suicide pills are for silly.
private property (property owned by legal persons or business entities)
Property
yeah
Hehe, touche.
I lol'd at the insurance bit, that would be so sad, might be time to start up my own internet, maybe the government can give me some of that stimulus so I can make an internet for the more competent among us.
Yeah hitler tried it but it didn't go over to well, maybe if he had tried it 40 years earlier to, it would have went over better, lol.
Yeah because strangers in a college late at night should have the right not to be questioned about who they are, yeah or maybe you should have read the fine print before you came on the campus, note as well it is private property. Their land, their rules, I see nothing wrong with the person asking who you were, maybe if you weren't an asshole or lied to them they wouldn't have given you any shit. The right attitude will get you a lot further than the wrong one will.
Right because we want to know who the terrorists are, and making them have a license will help us identify them.
/sarcasm
This plan sounds like a winner to me!
I thought chrome made it go faster.
Oh sure, you're so right this won't get abused whatsoever. /sarcasm
Aren't we supposed to control the government not the other way around?
You're not paying attention to anything I say, I'm tired of repeating myself. Have a good day.
1. I'm sure but I don't want to spend 20 mins to format it. I'll throw in some numbers to correlate if that helps you.
2. I'm sure they want to get at the millions of nothing that I have, considering the fact that it's going to be free, you are trying to act like everyone is out to get you and get rich, well sorry but that's not really the case, most people/companies aren't going to care if your not limiting their sales and your not making any money.
4. ftp, udp, basically any protocol
5. Doubtful anyone would be able to download it then, which is not the case, it's even on standalone players.
6. I guess if you don't use those protocols then you don't violate anything.
7. It's all good.
8. Borg maturation chamber
9. Then by your own defintion lat and speed correlate.
10. Because I can do it in the same window and requires no coding on my part to make it functional, like I said as well earlier I'd like to see it do 30 folders +subs and files with no java, flash or any other junk like that, drag and drop.
11. Well people connect to the server if there is an empty slot, so say you have 10 slots, 9 of said 10 slots are full, meaning 1 slot left, only 1 person can fill that slot, they connect to the server fill the slot and *then* they download the map, no one else can fill that slot, you actually have to be on that slot to start the download, that's how most games work, can't think of any that don't. Here is an example of pricing.
12. Uh because it uses double the resources?
13. That's what automation is for, if that number is even right, which I doubt, and it only takes one to get it right. Besides not all games are that big, some use numbers only, and some use letters and numbers, it all depends.
14. Maybe one of their employees did it, just because it's a business doesn't make them honest.
Don't have to.
watching grass grow
Didn't say it wouldn't be boring, besides how about you cite how taking a picture of something else that is copyrighted makes the image not yours
Not all of them are, some are for download, next time read the list
They still offer it for free
Sure but the software is free
And what about the site with the 14,000 free apps on it, didn't say anything about that
Huh?
I knew you would say java, and java sucks, even though it's free, lol. And I'm not talking about lat, I'm talking about using it, and yes you can use ssh for file transfer which would require speed.
Slots cost money, besides the more slots you have the more load you put on the server, therefore costing you more money, and no you can't run two servers because that doubles your cost for no reason.
How do you know it's not been registered? Have you heard of a keygen? Or maybe they say it's new in box and they just re-shrink wrapped it.
That's fine, just don't say I get 6mb and then only give me 2mb as thats a jip.
Either your just trolling or you really mean what you say in that post
The solutions that I provided are just as worthless as the excuses that an incompetent Internet service provider might give. Devil's advocacy is a common exercise of brainstorming to find counter-arguments so that their refutations can strengthen your argument. If it's looked down upon to consider how opponents are likely to reply, how can any argument be made strong?
True
Homemade as in I took it with my own camera, or is a freinds picture, or I made it myself
Copyright in your own photograph of a sculpture made since 1923 belongs to the sculptor, not you.
Not sure about that one, but if I take a picture of the sky, or make something entirely new with ms paint or something or another, that'd be mine...
homemade [movie], as in I made it, I own it
If a homemade movie can be shown to be a homemade derivative work of something else that you did not make, you don't in fact own copyright in the homemade movie. For example, a video of your child dancing to copyrighted music isn't yours unless you dub in different music. See Derivative work.
What if there is no music? lol and fair use would probably preside there as long as you're not selling it or publically displaying it for everyone to see. But say I make a video of myself mowing my lawn, that'd be mine, lol.
Homemade [music] you know what that means right?
It means you made a homemade recording of some song, but you can't necessarily prove that someone else didn't write the song first.
Neither can they, if you wanna play that game.
but back to what I was talking about, are in fact games that are free not stolen
Can you show me some examples of these free, not-stolen games? Several popular PC games released as free software infringe at least one copyright or patent. For example, StepMania 3.9 includes music and graphics ripped from Konami's DDRMAX: Dance Dance Revolution 6th Mix, and Konami has taken a StepMania licensee to court (Konami v. Roxor) over essential patents on dance video games.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=yahoo+games&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-e1g9
http://games.yahoo.com/all-games
Um there's free software around
Any free software that can, for example, encode MP3 audio violates U.S. patents because Thomson has never licensed the MP3 patents in a way consistent with the free software definition.
I'm pretty sure encoding is fine, its decoders that you have to pay for, but I can't exactly remember off hand.
ogg
xvid
pidgin
maybe something here "Free Downloads of over 14000 free software programs."
So what happens when I get sent so many packets that I either can't send and/or recieve them fast enough therefore causing me to lag, what then?
You don't request as many packets from the servers. Most video games that I know of don't use a lot of packets; instead, like VoIP, they use fewer packets but expect them to arrive quickly.
Quickly as in speed, if they cut that down then it's not gonna work very well, like I said I don't want to be stuck doing 1 thing at a time, I might be grabbing a game, up
We have a transparent caching proxy to speed up HTTP video delivery. caching system. You mentioned that you watch thousands of videos on video sharing sites every day; we cache the most popular videos so that we can feed them to you faster.
Good so long as I can watch Like a boss for the 50th time today with no lag I'm good.
How about sharing homemade pictures
Protocols other than HTTP don't have a well-defined takedown statute. So to save our behinds from being sued by the sculptors' union when you share photos of copyrighted sculptures without permission, we throttle other protocols.
Homemade as in I took it with my own camera, or is a freinds picture, or I made it myself, I said nothing about copyrighted.
movies
Using major label background music and/or characters without permission.
Again I said homemade, as in I made it, I own it, I'm not talking about hollywood here...
music
Subconsciously lifted from a major label song. Just ask George Harrison's widow. (Or what technique would you recommend to determine whether or not a given series of notes is copyrighted to someone else before you publish it?)
Homemade you know what that means right?
free games
Video game consoles don't have free games. In fact, they use cryptographic mechanisms to lock out the use of copylefted software.
When was I talking about consoles? But since you want to, consoles do have demos which are free, but back to what I was talking about, are in fact games that are free not stolen, the idea does exist, now you've heard of it.
software
Which violates patents on algorithms.
Um there's free software around, trials, demos, donations, completely free, again nothing said about stolen.
not to mention playing games
Most games need latency guarantees more than bandwidth guarantees. Limiting bandwidth allows our routers to respond more quickly to your packets.
So what happens when I get sent so many packets that I either can't send and/or recieve them fast enough therefore causing me to lag, what then?
uploading other types of files not via http, how about ftp, ssh
If you are using for purposes other than home entertainment, try upgrading to our business-class service designed for teleworkers.
That is home entertainment, ftp so I can upload files to sites, ssh so I can login to other servers, like say for a website for both, just cause you do find that fun doesn't mean other people don't.
Some of the several games I play the maps can be 50 megs or bigger
Then download them the night before you play.
What the hell? Ok let me further explain, said servers also server the maps at random and can't always be downloaded independently, and if you idle on the server you get kicked/banned, how do you imagine I get them then, also in other said games, the games are at random times and can be any sort of map, what do I do then, these rules they are trying to enforce are completely arbitrary not to mention that their (or yours whatever the case may be) solutions to said problems are completely worthless.
several full games are easily greater than 2 gigs, most being around
They want to cap me to 1/3, then I'm only going to pay 1/3 of my bill. Sure they want to blame (illegal) file sharing for the increase, but that's not the only thing that uses large amounts of bandwidth.
How about sharing homemade pictures, movies, music, free games, software, etc, not to mention playing games, uploading other types of files not via http, how about ftp, ssh, some other network, etc...
Some of the several games I play the maps can be 50 megs or bigger, the same goes with patches, hell I've seen some patches that are bigger than a couple hundred megs, oh and what about demo's and such, not to mention getting full games, like through say steam or some other provider, a demo I got was like 600 megs, and several full games are easily greater than 2 gigs, most being around 4 gigs or so, so gaming is easily an excuse (not that you should need one in the first place) for using high amounts of bandwidth and transfer.
At least they aren't complete idiots from what I read and don't throttle http, because then how am I supposed to watch my 10,000 youtube videos per day?
Oh and don't get me started on them investing in a better infrastructure, no no that'd cut into their precious bonus's to much, that's one reason right there that most if not all suits (read executives) will ever have any respect from me, because to them it's all about their bonus's and the grunts (read anyone below them) are only fodder for their meat grinders.
Well if they only give you 100gb and charge you more for over, then why the hell would they want to throttle you, if anything they'd want to give you a faster connection to make you more likely to go over and thus make for money for them. This kind of business strategy is shite, thankfully in my area things are opening up and you have more choices to pick from who you want to be with, though if they all do it then you don't really get a choice, but it's unlikely they'd all try to do it at the same time.
Hopefully one of these days soon they'll (providers) figure out that were not fodder for their meat grinders, just so they can make more money (read bonus's) when a customer has choices and you treat them wrong, they'll usually go somewhere else, I know I would. Just my 2 cents.
Uh yeah buddy whats your proof, sounds like you're full of shit to me. People would not still be talking about this had it been resolved. Point and case.
I understand me and my roommate at the time could never play sc at the same time on our home's cable line because of that problem, it sucked, one at a time or not at all, lan play sure no problems, but with sc2 with no lan support sounds rediculous, and just to cut back on piracy? Even dumber, because if people want it they *will* find a way and leave the rest of us screwed, even the legit people that are going to buy it get screwed, the people that wouldn't buy it anyways, well who cares about them :P I mean they can just go play on a pvpgn server anyways so still no loss there, which may be the end result of you not including lan support is to run a pvpgn server locally which is still a hassle for the lazy people and shouldn't be necessary.
You may think you're thwarting piracy is this stupid move, but really you're just hassling people who should have this from the get go with no workarounds...
Like my dad says if a crook wants something bad enough, it doesn't matter how many locks or what kinds of locks you put on there, if they want it they are going to take it by any means
I am paranoid enough that I don't want any internet enabled extraction of money from my bank account
I'm pretty sure if you have a bank account that anyone can get at your money, given enough details. So how does your debit card work then? If you use one that is. Also what about electronic transfer when you use a check? A lot of business do that to save time and check that you actually have the funds you say you do. Welcome to the 21st century...
now, 'get off my lawn you damn kids!!'
Hey when they first came out I really wanted one to like a bunch of other people I knew, then I started learning about the draw back to having one, some of which may seem petty to you but aren't to me, I have lots of people send me picture messages and whatever, nope can't do that they have to 'email' them, well thats a fucking waste of time trying to tell everyone that, I had asked my mom who has one if she got my mms she said no I had to email it, I was like wtf? Pass. Can only use bluetooth with headsets? Pass. Draconian app store? Pass. 500 'updates' a month? Pass. Lastly but not leastly you can't get insurance on them through your provider... Big pass, I mean the entire screen is breakable which can ruin the phone, best policy is better safe than sorry...
There are others but why bore you any longer.
Least someone gets my point, yes I understand it costs money to maintain an infrastructure of any kind, but regardless of whether you use a little bit or a lot or even none some months they are still making a profit of some sort, they are just trying to continue to make money even if you start spending less, like it's going to make up for it, more than likely push people to go off the grid completely and in case of emergency just use a generator, that'd be a good goal there.
/sarcasm
And at any rate for the few people that go 'green' and the minimal power they use, they can just be subsidized by the people that don't, the power company isn't really taking that huge of a loss, now say if like 75% or more people were doing this I could understand the fee being imposted, but I'm sure it's not a huge percentage.
It just come down to the corporate execs making sure they get their bonus's, wouldn't want them to only be able to get 5 cars and 2 boats, instead of 10 cars and 5 boats.
Ok so it would almost be understandable if you weren't using any electricity at all for several months from 'the grid' a fee then would sort of make sense, but what happens when you start using the grid again, does that fee go away, or do the greed mongers keep charging you? At that point it's not fair to charge you that fee when you are spending money using 'the grid' power. Either way these bastards are still making money hand over fist, why they gotta pick on the little guy *trying* to save some cash, or go green, or whatever the reason...
The Moon?