>now, don't anyone take this as flamebait or anything, I intend NO disrespect or insult
I wouldn't worry about it.:-)
>But, some investors on Wall Street got real scared, and because of that, our economy took a downturn.
Yes, I can see where you're going with this.
However, if one looks at America's reaction to this event as a whole, you'll see that it was widespread, unnecessary panic on all levels nationwide. It was't isolated to just economics, but continued on through government, and even all the way down to regular joes that bought plastic flags to fly on their cars.
All in all, with proper accountability (no, not "green" equity, etc, but actual "don't steal money" accountability) the system simply reflects what society as a whole feels; be this good or bad.
>Most of the wealth in this country is tied up in less than 1% of the population, while the rest of the population is at the mercy of that 1% when it comes to prices and quality.
You're completely wrong.
Not happy with the quality and prices?
Open a store and fix it. I did.
And no, you don't need $100+k to open a shop. Even saving one year of McDonald's slave labour funds will get it going. Get a friend to help you, then just 6 months of McDonald's slave labour.
#2. Get a Free to Air satellite system (cue North American "Huh? What's that" and European "Yeah, why the hell don't you have that there?" answers) and start watching those university networks! They're all over various satellites. You get all sorts of high-end lectures for free. It might not be everything, but it's sure a start.
>But the fact that it IS beverage alcohol is what enables me to make light of this! If it was something that really threatened the stability of the whole state, then I wouldn't make light of it so easily.
Heh... don't forget about what prohibition did to the crime rate!
Why you don't want to run daemontools, I don't know. I'm trying to move my stuff over to it. It's an absolutely great way to start up daemons, and I wish it were included by default in slackware.
>And fewer eyes watching the source code.. Fewer bugs in a project of similar complexity with fewer users is not necessary a clean bill of health.
Normally I'd agree, but the OpenSSH project has led me to believe that there are times this analogy breaks down, badly.
Worse than that is BIND. There's likely even more people poring over that project, but for years it was plagued with the worst kind of bugs. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more for people to find.
There's many more examples, some worse, some not.
I really do like lsh. It's fast, quick to compile, and has a REALLY streamlined set of libraries and installation procedure. Plus its author seems to read slashdot.:o)
>Newer versions of OpenSSH don't support -c none. (The usual security zealot nonsense from the OpenBSD people from what I can tell. There *is* a place for -c none.)
Then try lsh! It's GNU software instead. Has fewer bugs, it seems, too.:-)
>I know what the outcome would be. (hint: read the headline).
That's with Dell. They're a PC manufacturer so overpriced it's laughable. If you thought I was making a "bet" when encouraging people to give me some systems to beat, I'll double it when it comes to any Dell PC (except those crazy left over inventory below-cost zillion-dollar rebate blowouts -- those sorta scare me, quality and support wise).
It wouldn't surprise me if Cray could put something together cheaper than Dell, too.:-)
>Damn you tricksy Canadians and your exchange rates!
Heheheh... time for a worldwide currency!
>Throw in a bit of back bacon, and you've got a deal...
We could manage it, I'm sure. The weird thing is, a lot of shops call it "peameal bacon" here...:-)
>You're right, I was being tremendously presumptuous that a Linux user would be trolling the Apple channel.
No, you weren't really, I was a bit miffed at the whole "big corporation" thing, sorry. I was even one who boosted linux for every purpose. Having run a business for a while, I can see that I was wrong. It works tremendously well for some tasks (our Point Of Sale machine runs Quasar flawlessly, and there's no debate that linux runs our servers better than we could possibly need [BIG THANKS DJB!]) but is useless for others (Video Eiditing is just so much easier on windows. Don't know about on a Mac. I've heard it's easy on one of them too, but I can't bring myself to afford one.)
Sadly, Apple's claims are as questionable as ever, but what's astonishing is how quickly the truth has come out. Almost immediately after the keynote, while Mac fanatics worldwide continued chortling over their perceived victory, people around the Web began looking into the benchmarks Apple used to prove the G5's prowess. Predictably, things aren't as simple as Apple's followers would like to believe. More alarming, even dual processor G5 machines still don't match the processing power of a single processor Pentium 4 system, contrary to what Apple announced Monday.
And that's from a *happy* Mac owner:
And the company's hardware is of tremendous quality (I own two Macs and an iPod), with the PowerMac G5 clearly continuing this trend.
I'd hate to see what the Anti-Mac guys have to say.
There's probably no point in showing you the cost of a single P4 system. And, this little foible is probably what has sparked Apple to sell these machines for under $2,000 US. Nobody wants a machine that's slow for $3,000.
>Build me a system that will run XP Professional using brand name quality parts for under $500 and interact with the rest of the corporate universe in a meaningful fashion. >That POS you're advertising on your home page doesn't count, either.
Obviously. It's less than half the price of $500 US. This is going to be EASY.
So, we need a NIC, obviously. We need a reasonable hard drive (20 GB should do). 512 MB RAM should be plenty. A CD-RW would be nice, but you don't mention it.
If I missed something, let me know. Your BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION should have its own it department for dealing with this stuff.
>That *thing* on your home page running with Open Office as it's productivity app doesn't count either, because it's not a useful comparison for those of us who actually has to work in a corporate environment.
I'll agree. Most people like to get some office action going on. However, normally BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES deal with software licensing themselves. Even medium sized local businesses do. It only makes sense. So let's not argue about software, because I assume your company is at least as smart as where I worked before (trust me, that wouldn't be difficult at all).
Okay, so since you should be dealing with software (you're a BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION with a clue, right? Oh God I hope you aren't paying BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL VENDOR prices for software. If you are, give MS a call *right now*. Your boss is sure to give you a raise for saving them the cash on this one.)
So, let's spec her out, huh? Sub $500 US. Hell, I'll try to make it sub $500 CDN (that's a bit of a squeeze, but we'll see).
Generic Case (Kinda hard to bend metal any special way the system is "better") - $30 CDN
Enermax 300 watt Power Supply - $45.99 CDN
ASUS A7N266 motherboard - $100 CDN
XP 2.5+ Barton CPU - $150 CDN
Realtek LAN card - $10 CDN
Floppy - $10 CDN
20 GB WD HDD - $73.99 CDN
512 MB DDR - $110.99 CDN
Total: $530.97 CDN (way less than $500 US).
Any parts you think are of subpar quality? If you want, I can upgrade the case to something with some really good reviews (one of the AOpen cases) for another $60 CDN, but it's kind of pointless, since it won't affect the use or overall quality of the machine. The rest of the stuff is pretty much top of the brand names. If you don't like enermax, WD, or ASUS, you'll have a tough time convincing me Dell (or whomever you get your PCs from) doesn't use those parts.
Of course, buying in bulk from a wholesaler (again, I hope to hell you aren't buying from Dell if you are a BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION, that would be pointless, you should have your own repair departments if you are that big!) you'll get a FAR better deal. For *sure* you can shave about 25% off that price, and end up with parts so identical, they're even from the same run. That is, if you're buying in the hundreds quantities you're talking about.
>In the meantime, could you see about a version of Evolution that is usable by abovementioned workerbees?
Why? They seem to be happy running Win XP. Let them use what they're good at. Don't saddle them with a second job -- learning a new OS -- unless you are sure you can get a good ROI on it (oh, those managerial buzzwords are fun to say, aren't they?)
If you're somewhat surprised at these prices, email me. I'll give you a national contact at our wholesaler who would be happy sell you thousands of pre built systems at a time (at my other job, we'd happily order a few hundred from them every year without trouble -- we saved a lot on licensing by purchasing direct from MS, too -- our guess is about $30 or $40 grand).
>All of which shoots your ROI out the window.
Why did you assume I was going to tell you to put linux on those computers? I certainly do support any such initiatives, but you're your own best judge of what your company needs. If you want to use windows, be my guest.
>People (esp. in the/. crowd) bitch about apple and their cost, mainly because they don't like the OS, or because it is a closed set of standards, but in reality, the price/performance ratio of Macs are just as good as PC's are out there.
Hardware to hardware, then, I challenge you to bring up a Mac system (non-laptop) which I can't beat with similar or better PC hardware, of similar or better quality. Please give me a link to the Apple store for the machine you'd like me to try to beat. And no, I won't be getting the parts from all over, they'll all come from one shop.
If it's a laptop, the comparison is more difficult, as even PC laptops aren't customizable to fit the same spec as an Apple machine.
>Yes, you can't build your own Mac for $300, but you get what you pay for.
True, and a $300 PC system isn't going to of much quality without making some horrible sacrifices.
However, one can get into a PC system built out of brand name quality parts for under $500.
>How can a network that allows the sharing of EVERYTHING single out only one format of pirated material, and claim that it will "clean up the network"?
The same way the city claims fixing the roads is getting rid of the potholes on main street, of course.:-)
>I don't know if Nvidia's drivers are open source or not
They aren't. And, for lord only knows what reason, neither are their network drivers, which makes them particularly useless in linux (how does one download the drivers if the card support isn't included in the kernel without buying another card? if you do that, aren't you defeating the point a bit?)
>but they already do a heck of a lot more of work with the community on driver issues than anyone else
Yes, you often have to do that, or else your drivers won't work on very many kernels at all.:-S
This is why I won't put an nvidia chipset board in my Linux server again...
>And oh, about the install: RTFA!
Too true! It isn't that hard, really. You just have to recompile the nvidia stuff EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU MAKE A CHANGE TO THE KERNEL. Sorry for the all caps, I'm just a little sore that a 10/100 NETWORK DRIVER is CLOSED SOURCE.
This sorta means that if you upgrade your kernel, and you don't have the nvidia driver handy, you're hosed until you have another machine/NIC handy (of course, I do, but not at the time I was screwed...)
>Folks who bought a PS2 at $499 must really feel screwed now
Probably not. A lot of design faults appeared to be present in the old PS2. New ones take care of these. Also, the laser unit was known to die prematurely, so this is a cheap "consumer self repair".
>And they say Apple has large profit margins !
Yes and no... the newer PS2s have gone through a LOT of cost reduction redesign. Often that spells bad things for the consumer, but not in the PS2s case. The PS2 has become a much better built machine over time. For $99 you will get a unit that should last you longer.
I would guess the original PS2 probably cost about $399 off the assembly line.
I have better things to do than listen to this. If you have no argument, I've won, and I'll leave it at that. PCs are obviously better than Macs in so many ways, and you're unable to beat my arguments, so that's ok.
>Machine code is not a language.
Then you know far less than you purport. If it's not a language, pray tell me, how was I able to do my second year EET project in it?
>You're living in fantasy land if you think you sell even a tenth as many of those as Adobe has sold copies of Photoshop.
Hmmm, let's see. If I (a small computer shop) were able to sell even 1/100th of the amount of cards as Adobe sells copies of photoshop, that would make me right. I mean, in my city alone, there's 20 computer shops. That makes a lot more cards sold than copies of photoshop in Ontario alone, doesn't it?
Or are you just spouting off vitriol again?
>Those are not statistics. My hat remains uneaten.
I took statistics classes. If you don't think that's a statistic, fuck off. You're just not right.
>Which does not, by the way, encompass a niche-market such as PCI-card signal decoders.
Let's see:
3 satellite stores in my city.
1 DTP shop.
Hmm, I'd say you're wrong. But perhaps you live in one of those strange parts of the world (Northern Alaska?) that is pretty much unable to receive satellite signals.
>Ahhh, I see, so you're a bit of a pirate? Let's see if I can get you in trouble with a few phone calls and some research then.
If, my enemy, this is what this argument has come down to, I've won.
Again, HAND. No need to reply to your stupid crap any more.
These are the people I need to call to file a John Doe libel suit against you, right? I'm not sure about US law, so perhaps you could enlighten me. Let's see if I can get you in trouble with only one phone call. Fortunately for me, you guys are 3 hours behind, so I have ample opportunity.
>You know, Shep, I really admire the way you twist the argument around semantic games rather than debating substance. That's really cool.
You know, I really tire of your lack of knowledge. How can I prove that?
Why, in the next things you say!
>I do it every day, using a little program called Virtual PC. Works incredibly well.
In other words, you've used an emulator. That's nothing like running PC code at all. In fact, that's the same as saying my PS2 is a nintendo because there's an emulator for it. It isn't.
>The bit about how you're sarcastic and arrogant and condescending is also really fucking lame. I mean, it might be funny if you were actually correct about anything, but as it is it's just really fucking lame.
Clearly you needed it, though. I mean, you think an emulator makes your computer the same as what it emulates. Uhhuhh, yeah, right...
Interesting how you're willing to bend the truth to suit your needs, but when it doesn't suit you, you're willing to cry like a baby over spilt milk.
>There is no such thing as a low-end Mac. They simply don't exist.
That would explain the lack of penetration of Macintosh into the business and home areas. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave hardly any "wedge room", and is why Mac will always remain an inferior system for a long time to come (perhaps until prices come down to the point that the difference between "cheap" and "quality" is only $50).
>That puts it in a different class from the little toy you talked about.
Yes, it puts it in the class of having a bunch of features you really don't need. And puts it totally out of the business class. And put it out of the reach of most home users. Again, exactly HOW does that make a Macintosh superior? Because it runs OSX? Because its higher prices make it "elite"? Because it includes features the majority of computer users have decided they really don't want or need? I mean, Volvos come with ass heaters, but the majority of the public has decided this isn't an important feature, so the car doesn't sell anywhere near as well as a Toyota Corolla which is ass heaterless.
Both cars get you from point A to point B at exactly the same speed. Just one has a lot of junk built into it nobody wants and costs a bundle to get fixed/upgraded. Interestingly enough, this applies very well to the Mac/PC argument, except that while the Mac is feature-laden, it requires emulators (how pathetic) to run all the popular software.
>There's no iTunes, and nothing equivalent to it.
Thank God. That's one hell of an overpriced shitty service. I can buy REAL CDs for less, quicker, and they aren't DRM encumbered.
>How do you organize your schedule? There's no iCal.
Outlook is free with windows, and is the choice of the majority of the population, so it must be good enough.
In fact, Microsoft has been offering scheduling software free with their OS since before the Mac II, if I remember correctly. You're at least 13 years out of date on this "fact", my friend.
>There's no iMovie, so editing movies is out...
LOL! Windows has come with video editing software for a very long time. Get in touch...
BTW: I was editing movies for free with windows for far longer than you could do it for free on a Mac. And it was easier, and cheaper, too. Nothing available for a Mac could touch the value I got from my Rainbow Runner-G series at the time.
>but that's okay, because there's no FireWire so you can't get the movies into the computer from your camera anyway.
Actually, it is fine because the majority of cameras are now including USB 2.0 anyways. Not that both of my PCs don't have firewire in them, at a cost that truly puts a similar Mac to shame (As you've noticed, I use my PCs for some high-end activities). For well under $1,000 you too can get a dream PC that will have all the features above, and much, much, much more than a Mac.
>It's not that they're equivalent within confines, they are in fact the same protocols.
Cool, by that definition, your mac is fully commodore 64 compatible. The C64 can read CDs, could run Java applets (if someone was bothered to write a JVM), and connects easily to an ethernet network. It also runs on standard wall socket.
Wow, didn't know the Mac was so universal. Again, you've educated me. I just wonder, how can I fit a C64 disk into a Mac? Your knowledge of the units appears so vast, I'm sure you will be able to explain it to me.
>'Within the confines of their own language' does not apply
That's interesting, I never knew Macs could run x86 code. That's cool. You've educated me.
I'll make sure I say "garote explained to me that the Macintosh CPU supports x86 code" whenever someone questions me on this.
>Straw man, my friend. I made no such claim.
Ho hum, It's tedious quoting other users own words. Surprised you couldn't remember them being you said them today:
My Mac powerbook goes to the same websites, runs the same java apps, runs the same Perl scripts, reads the same word documents, plays the same music, burns the same CDs and DVDs, writes to the same network shares, authenticates with the same domains, plays the same movies, views the same pictures, uses the same USB devices, uses the same wireless and ethernet standards, can hook up to the same televisions and stereos, and plugs into the same wall sockets as any other laptop.
Of course, if you really are focusing on the fact it plugs into the same power outlet, well, so does my fridge. Why waste so much space to say that?
>Are you talking CPUs, or languages, here, when you say "translation"? Must be CPUs?
Perhaps you don't program. Let me explain how a computer runs:
Machine code is executed to perform various operations on the computer. Every CPU has it's own code (called a 'language') that is often incompatible with other processors (often called the 'computer' by the less experienced, or in general discussion). Machine code is often compiled ('translated') from higher level, more generic code, such as C, Fortran, or Cobol. This makes programs more portable, however, they are unable to run directly on the computer, as they are not in that computer's language (machine code).
I'm happy to educate you, just as you've educated me, of course.
>You had to dig pretty deep to come up with that, didn't you? Show me statistics that indicate that this is a major - or even minor - concern for ONE PERCENT of computer users the world over, and I'll eat my hat.
It's what I sell, it's what I use. And that's the same reverse argument I use about the Mac: Show me 1% of users that think the ability to use photoshop is a minor concern to using their computer. The numbers will be about equal (you'd be surprised how many people want these cards -- I've sold 1 per 2 computers I've sold -- I can't even keep the damn things in stock they fly off the shelves that fast!).
>And if I could get a 700 series BMW for ten bucks, that'd be great too. Straw man again. That must be the only trick you know?
I think I already told you once, fuck you.
This time, the jokes on you. I *run* a computer store. Here's the specs, and if you want that machine for that price, I'll be happy to ship it to you tomorrow (shipping not included, of course). No, it's well above wholesale prices, I don't take anything close to a "hit" on cost at this price. Maybe before you accuse someone of a straw man argument (which is the only way YOU know of ending a conversation you can't win) you'd like to click the link under someone's username?
Specs:
- 1.3 Ghz Duron CPU
- 128 MB RAM
- 40 GB HDD
- 52x CD-ROM
- Built on Video, LAN, Sound
- Windows XP Home edition, pre-installed, ready to go
So, tell me, being that these are all new parts, what equivalent new low-end Mac can I purchas
>False analogy. My Mac powerbook goes to the same websites, runs the same java apps, runs the same Perl scripts, reads the same word documents, plays the same music, burns the same CDs and DVDs, writes to the same network shares, authenticates with the same domains, plays the same movies, views the same pictures, uses the same USB devices, uses the same wireless and ethernet standards, can hook up to the same televisions and stereos, and plugs into the same wall sockets as any other laptop.
No, it isn't a false analogy.
People who don't speak english can do anything someone who can speak english can do, within the confines of their own language. Just like with a Mac, according to you, you can do anything I'd do on a PC (I doubt that very much, but hey, for the sake of argument I'll pretend you're right) except you can't run anything I would run. You can run translations of the apps, but that's as close as it gets. I've heard "The windows version of this app works better" from enough Mac users to know that doesn't cut it.
That's just like someone who speaks French can say any English word translated into French, but it still isn't English, is it?
>Your basis for comparison is ten years out of date, at least.
Interesting. Can I record DVB-S signals on a Mac yet? That's the main use of my PC at the moment. Oh, and I need to be able to run all the various Xbox and PS2 modchip tools also. I can do that with a Mac also? If so, cool! If not, well, it's a waste of my money to buy a Mac.
I guess, last but not least, I can buy a Mac for $459.99 CDN new including the OS, right? Because if I could, that'd be cool -- I might actually try one then.
But then again, those things were invented within the last 10 years, so perhaps Macs are only 10 years out of date. Beats me! Why not inform me on this! It's the opportunity of a lifetime!:-)
>The company is just protecting their IP from pirates
Actually, they weren't.
They were just trying to stop their software from being used like a book. Why, I have no idea. Perhaps they're stupid (these losses do sorta prove that notion).
>And come on a quick internet connection or phone call is neither expensive or much effort, especially given the prices of software these days.
Good point. I guess when you have so much money to invest into expensive single use software, you should be able to afford being on hold.
>But any complaints beyond that usually come from people who are angry that they can't get warez of Tax/Word/Office/Game blubb anymore.
LOL. As if!:o)
>I don't know why companies should deactivate product activation to support thieves.
Since when did product activation stop people from shoplifting?
Slashdot Mirror
>now, don't anyone take this as flamebait or anything, I intend NO disrespect or insult
:-)
I wouldn't worry about it.
>But, some investors on Wall Street got real scared, and because of that, our economy took a downturn.
Yes, I can see where you're going with this.
However, if one looks at America's reaction to this event as a whole, you'll see that it was widespread, unnecessary panic on all levels nationwide. It was't isolated to just economics, but continued on through government, and even all the way down to regular joes that bought plastic flags to fly on their cars.
All in all, with proper accountability (no, not "green" equity, etc, but actual "don't steal money" accountability) the system simply reflects what society as a whole feels; be this good or bad.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
>Most of the wealth in this country is tied up in less than 1% of the population, while the rest of the population is at the mercy of that 1% when it comes to prices and quality.
You're completely wrong.
Not happy with the quality and prices?
Open a store and fix it. I did.
And no, you don't need $100+k to open a shop. Even saving one year of McDonald's slave labour funds will get it going. Get a friend to help you, then just 6 months of McDonald's slave labour.
#1. See if the Nasa channel can help.
#2. Get a Free to Air satellite system (cue North American "Huh? What's that" and European "Yeah, why the hell don't you have that there?" answers) and start watching those university networks! They're all over various satellites. You get all sorts of high-end lectures for free. It might not be everything, but it's sure a start.
>But the fact that it IS beverage alcohol is what enables me to make light of this! If it was something that really threatened the stability of the whole state, then I wouldn't make light of it so easily.
Heh... don't forget about what prohibition did to the crime rate!
Quite right.
Try this then.
Why you don't want to run daemontools, I don't know. I'm trying to move my stuff over to it. It's an absolutely great way to start up daemons, and I wish it were included by default in slackware.
>Is there a way to install and run it without having to install the rest of his daemon management stuff?
Yup.
HTH!
>And fewer eyes watching the source code.. Fewer bugs in a project of similar complexity with fewer users is not necessary a clean bill of health.
:o)
Normally I'd agree, but the OpenSSH project has led me to believe that there are times this analogy breaks down, badly.
Worse than that is BIND. There's likely even more people poring over that project, but for years it was plagued with the worst kind of bugs. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more for people to find.
There's many more examples, some worse, some not.
I really do like lsh. It's fast, quick to compile, and has a REALLY streamlined set of libraries and installation procedure. Plus its author seems to read slashdot.
>Newer versions of OpenSSH don't support -c none. (The usual security zealot nonsense from the OpenBSD people from what I can tell. There *is* a place for -c none.)
:-)
Then try lsh! It's GNU software instead. Has fewer bugs, it seems, too.
>I know what the outcome would be. (hint: read the headline).
:-)
That's with Dell. They're a PC manufacturer so overpriced it's laughable. If you thought I was making a "bet" when encouraging people to give me some systems to beat, I'll double it when it comes to any Dell PC (except those crazy left over inventory below-cost zillion-dollar rebate blowouts -- those sorta scare me, quality and support wise).
It wouldn't surprise me if Cray could put something together cheaper than Dell, too.
>Damn you tricksy Canadians and your exchange rates!
:-)
Heheheh... time for a worldwide currency!
>Throw in a bit of back bacon, and you've got a deal...
We could manage it, I'm sure. The weird thing is, a lot of shops call it "peameal bacon" here...
>You're right, I was being tremendously presumptuous that a Linux user would be trolling the Apple channel.
No, you weren't really, I was a bit miffed at the whole "big corporation" thing, sorry. I was even one who boosted linux for every purpose. Having run a business for a while, I can see that I was wrong. It works tremendously well for some tasks (our Point Of Sale machine runs Quasar flawlessly, and there's no debate that linux runs our servers better than we could possibly need [BIG THANKS DJB!]) but is useless for others (Video Eiditing is just so much easier on windows. Don't know about on a Mac. I've heard it's easy on one of them too, but I can't bring myself to afford one.)
Linux, windows, MacOS, they all have their place.
>I thought this was settled...$3000...dual 2Ghz G5...
Well, it is for Apple. But one never trusts a seller to be impartial.
Others differ strongly in their opinions.
Sadly, Apple's claims are as questionable as ever, but what's astonishing is how quickly the truth has come out. Almost immediately after the keynote, while Mac fanatics worldwide continued chortling over their perceived victory, people around the Web began looking into the benchmarks Apple used to prove the G5's prowess. Predictably, things aren't as simple as Apple's followers would like to believe. More alarming, even dual processor G5 machines still don't match the processing power of a single processor Pentium 4 system, contrary to what Apple announced Monday.
And that's from a *happy* Mac owner:
And the company's hardware is of tremendous quality (I own two Macs and an iPod), with the PowerMac G5 clearly continuing this trend.
I'd hate to see what the Anti-Mac guys have to say.
There's probably no point in showing you the cost of a single P4 system. And, this little foible is probably what has sparked Apple to sell these machines for under $2,000 US. Nobody wants a machine that's slow for $3,000.
>Let's see what the numbers on that are like.
You can't seriously think I'm going to test that just to satisfy your curiosity, can you?
Get reasonable and try again.
>That POS you're advertising on your home page doesn't count, either.
Obviously. It's less than half the price of $500 US. This is going to be EASY.
So, we need a NIC, obviously. We need a reasonable hard drive (20 GB should do). 512 MB RAM should be plenty. A CD-RW would be nice, but you don't mention it.
If I missed something, let me know. Your BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION should have its own it department for dealing with this stuff.
>That *thing* on your home page running with Open Office as it's productivity app doesn't count either, because it's not a useful comparison for those of us who actually has to work in a corporate environment.
I'll agree. Most people like to get some office action going on. However, normally BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES deal with software licensing themselves. Even medium sized local businesses do. It only makes sense. So let's not argue about software, because I assume your company is at least as smart as where I worked before (trust me, that wouldn't be difficult at all).
Okay, so since you should be dealing with software (you're a BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION with a clue, right? Oh God I hope you aren't paying BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL VENDOR prices for software. If you are, give MS a call *right now*. Your boss is sure to give you a raise for saving them the cash on this one.)
So, let's spec her out, huh? Sub $500 US. Hell, I'll try to make it sub $500 CDN (that's a bit of a squeeze, but we'll see).
Total: $530.97 CDN (way less than $500 US).
Any parts you think are of subpar quality? If you want, I can upgrade the case to something with some really good reviews (one of the AOpen cases) for another $60 CDN, but it's kind of pointless, since it won't affect the use or overall quality of the machine. The rest of the stuff is pretty much top of the brand names. If you don't like enermax, WD, or ASUS, you'll have a tough time convincing me Dell (or whomever you get your PCs from) doesn't use those parts.
Of course, buying in bulk from a wholesaler (again, I hope to hell you aren't buying from Dell if you are a BIG FUCKING MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION, that would be pointless, you should have your own repair departments if you are that big!) you'll get a FAR better deal. For *sure* you can shave about 25% off that price, and end up with parts so identical, they're even from the same run. That is, if you're buying in the hundreds quantities you're talking about.
>In the meantime, could you see about a version of Evolution that is usable by abovementioned workerbees?
Why? They seem to be happy running Win XP. Let them use what they're good at. Don't saddle them with a second job -- learning a new OS -- unless you are sure you can get a good ROI on it (oh, those managerial buzzwords are fun to say, aren't they?)
If you're somewhat surprised at these prices, email me. I'll give you a national contact at our wholesaler who would be happy sell you thousands of pre built systems at a time (at my other job, we'd happily order a few hundred from them every year without trouble -- we saved a lot on licensing by purchasing direct from MS, too -- our guess is about $30 or $40 grand).
>All of which shoots your ROI out the window.
Why did you assume I was going to tell you to put linux on those computers? I certainly do support any such initiatives, but you're your own best judge of what your company needs. If you want to use windows, be my guest.
>People (esp. in the /. crowd) bitch about apple and their cost, mainly because they don't like the OS, or because it is a closed set of standards, but in reality, the price/performance ratio of Macs are just as good as PC's are out there.
Hardware to hardware, then, I challenge you to bring up a Mac system (non-laptop) which I can't beat with similar or better PC hardware, of similar or better quality. Please give me a link to the Apple store for the machine you'd like me to try to beat. And no, I won't be getting the parts from all over, they'll all come from one shop.
If it's a laptop, the comparison is more difficult, as even PC laptops aren't customizable to fit the same spec as an Apple machine.
>Yes, you can't build your own Mac for $300, but you get what you pay for.
True, and a $300 PC system isn't going to of much quality without making some horrible sacrifices.
However, one can get into a PC system built out of brand name quality parts for under $500.
>How can a network that allows the sharing of EVERYTHING single out only one format of pirated material, and claim that it will "clean up the network"?
:-)
The same way the city claims fixing the roads is getting rid of the potholes on main street, of course.
>I don't know if Nvidia's drivers are open source or not
:-S
They aren't. And, for lord only knows what reason, neither are their network drivers, which makes them particularly useless in linux (how does one download the drivers if the card support isn't included in the kernel without buying another card? if you do that, aren't you defeating the point a bit?)
>but they already do a heck of a lot more of work with the community on driver issues than anyone else
Yes, you often have to do that, or else your drivers won't work on very many kernels at all.
This is why I won't put an nvidia chipset board in my Linux server again...
>And oh, about the install: RTFA!
Too true! It isn't that hard, really. You just have to recompile the nvidia stuff EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU MAKE A CHANGE TO THE KERNEL. Sorry for the all caps, I'm just a little sore that a 10/100 NETWORK DRIVER is CLOSED SOURCE.
This sorta means that if you upgrade your kernel, and you don't have the nvidia driver handy, you're hosed until you have another machine/NIC handy (of course, I do, but not at the time I was screwed...)
>Folks who bought a PS2 at $499 must really feel screwed now
Probably not. A lot of design faults appeared to be present in the old PS2. New ones take care of these. Also, the laser unit was known to die prematurely, so this is a cheap "consumer self repair".
>And they say Apple has large profit margins !
Yes and no... the newer PS2s have gone through a LOT of cost reduction redesign. Often that spells bad things for the consumer, but not in the PS2s case. The PS2 has become a much better built machine over time. For $99 you will get a unit that should last you longer.
I would guess the original PS2 probably cost about $399 off the assembly line.
http://www.gvz.com/ ?src=slashdot
:)
>There is much more to it than that, but I don't want this to be TOO much of a blatant advertisement..
How did that get there then?
Referrers is a much cleaner way to do marketing research.
Now these guys, I found with a google search. Dunno if they're credible, and I'm not about to find out (I'm not from the US).
I still don't see an apology. It's not 5:00 pm where you live yet, it appears...
Have you considered one?
Probably not.
I am quite serious about considering the libel suit. You would do well to apologize.
My bad.
The number I really needed was this one. I didn't check your homepage closely enough. My fault.
Jeez, no phone number on the home page? That's a bummer. It's one of these, though, I assume:
Criminal Prosecutions (831) 454-2400
Watsonville D.A.'s Office (831) 763-8120
Victim Assistance (831) 454-2010
Consumer Affairs (831) 454-2050
Check Recovery Unit (831) 454-2233
Public Administrator (831) 454-3532
Investigations Bureau (831) 454-2121
If that doesn't work, I'll just try this one:
Santa Cruz Police Department
155 Center St.
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
(831)420-5800
I suppose you should have taken that homepage down before libeling me. Well, what's done is done... now... where did I store wget?
I'll forgive and forget, though, if you apologize promptly. Everyone makes mistakes, don't they?
>= straw man crap
I have better things to do than listen to this. If you have no argument, I've won, and I'll leave it at that. PCs are obviously better than Macs in so many ways, and you're unable to beat my arguments, so that's ok.
>Machine code is not a language.
Then you know far less than you purport. If it's not a language, pray tell me, how was I able to do my second year EET project in it?
>You're living in fantasy land if you think you sell even a tenth as many of those as Adobe has sold copies of Photoshop.
Hmmm, let's see. If I (a small computer shop) were able to sell even 1/100th of the amount of cards as Adobe sells copies of photoshop, that would make me right. I mean, in my city alone, there's 20 computer shops. That makes a lot more cards sold than copies of photoshop in Ontario alone, doesn't it?
Or are you just spouting off vitriol again?
>Those are not statistics. My hat remains uneaten.
I took statistics classes. If you don't think that's a statistic, fuck off. You're just not right.
>Which does not, by the way, encompass a niche-market such as PCI-card signal decoders.
Let's see:
3 satellite stores in my city.
1 DTP shop.
Hmm, I'd say you're wrong. But perhaps you live in one of those strange parts of the world (Northern Alaska?) that is pretty much unable to receive satellite signals.
>Ahhh, I see, so you're a bit of a pirate? Let's see if I can get you in trouble with a few phone calls and some research then.
If, my enemy, this is what this argument has come down to, I've won.
Again, HAND. No need to reply to your stupid crap any more.
These are the people I need to call to file a John Doe libel suit against you, right? I'm not sure about US law, so perhaps you could enlighten me. Let's see if I can get you in trouble with only one phone call. Fortunately for me, you guys are 3 hours behind, so I have ample opportunity.
>You know, Shep, I really admire the way you twist the argument around semantic games rather than debating substance. That's really cool.
You know, I really tire of your lack of knowledge. How can I prove that?
Why, in the next things you say!
>I do it every day, using a little program called Virtual PC. Works incredibly well.
In other words, you've used an emulator. That's nothing like running PC code at all. In fact, that's the same as saying my PS2 is a nintendo because there's an emulator for it. It isn't.
>The bit about how you're sarcastic and arrogant and condescending is also really fucking lame. I mean, it might be funny if you were actually correct about anything, but as it is it's just really fucking lame.
Clearly you needed it, though. I mean, you think an emulator makes your computer the same as what it emulates. Uhhuhh, yeah, right...
Interesting how you're willing to bend the truth to suit your needs, but when it doesn't suit you, you're willing to cry like a baby over spilt milk.
>There is no such thing as a low-end Mac. They simply don't exist.
That would explain the lack of penetration of Macintosh into the business and home areas. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave hardly any "wedge room", and is why Mac will always remain an inferior system for a long time to come (perhaps until prices come down to the point that the difference between "cheap" and "quality" is only $50).
>That puts it in a different class from the little toy you talked about.
Yes, it puts it in the class of having a bunch of features you really don't need. And puts it totally out of the business class. And put it out of the reach of most home users. Again, exactly HOW does that make a Macintosh superior? Because it runs OSX? Because its higher prices make it "elite"? Because it includes features the majority of computer users have decided they really don't want or need? I mean, Volvos come with ass heaters, but the majority of the public has decided this isn't an important feature, so the car doesn't sell anywhere near as well as a Toyota Corolla which is ass heaterless.
Both cars get you from point A to point B at exactly the same speed. Just one has a lot of junk built into it nobody wants and costs a bundle to get fixed/upgraded. Interestingly enough, this applies very well to the Mac/PC argument, except that while the Mac is feature-laden, it requires emulators (how pathetic) to run all the popular software.
>There's no iTunes, and nothing equivalent to it.
Thank God. That's one hell of an overpriced shitty service. I can buy REAL CDs for less, quicker, and they aren't DRM encumbered.
>How do you organize your schedule? There's no iCal.
Outlook is free with windows, and is the choice of the majority of the population, so it must be good enough.
In fact, Microsoft has been offering scheduling software free with their OS since before the Mac II, if I remember correctly. You're at least 13 years out of date on this "fact", my friend.
>There's no iMovie, so editing movies is out...
LOL! Windows has come with video editing software for a very long time. Get in touch...
BTW: I was editing movies for free with windows for far longer than you could do it for free on a Mac. And it was easier, and cheaper, too. Nothing available for a Mac could touch the value I got from my Rainbow Runner-G series at the time.
>but that's okay, because there's no FireWire so you can't get the movies into the computer from your camera anyway.
Actually, it is fine because the majority of cameras are now including USB 2.0 anyways. Not that both of my PCs don't have firewire in them, at a cost that truly puts a similar Mac to shame (As you've noticed, I use my PCs for some high-end activities). For well under $1,000 you too can get a dream PC that will have all the features above, and much, much, much more than a Mac.
>Any Mac
>It's not that they're equivalent within confines, they are in fact the same protocols.
Cool, by that definition, your mac is fully commodore 64 compatible. The C64 can read CDs, could run Java applets (if someone was bothered to write a JVM), and connects easily to an ethernet network. It also runs on standard wall socket.
Wow, didn't know the Mac was so universal. Again, you've educated me. I just wonder, how can I fit a C64 disk into a Mac? Your knowledge of the units appears so vast, I'm sure you will be able to explain it to me.
>'Within the confines of their own language' does not apply
That's interesting, I never knew Macs could run x86 code. That's cool. You've educated me.
I'll make sure I say "garote explained to me that the Macintosh CPU supports x86 code" whenever someone questions me on this.
>Straw man, my friend. I made no such claim.
Ho hum, It's tedious quoting other users own words. Surprised you couldn't remember them being you said them today:
My Mac powerbook goes to the same websites, runs the same java apps, runs the same Perl scripts, reads the same word documents, plays the same music, burns the same CDs and DVDs, writes to the same network shares, authenticates with the same domains, plays the same movies, views the same pictures, uses the same USB devices, uses the same wireless and ethernet standards, can hook up to the same televisions and stereos, and plugs into the same wall sockets as any other laptop.
Of course, if you really are focusing on the fact it plugs into the same power outlet, well, so does my fridge. Why waste so much space to say that?
>Are you talking CPUs, or languages, here, when you say "translation"? Must be CPUs?
Perhaps you don't program. Let me explain how a computer runs:
Machine code is executed to perform various operations on the computer. Every CPU has it's own code (called a 'language') that is often incompatible with other processors (often called the 'computer' by the less experienced, or in general discussion). Machine code is often compiled ('translated') from higher level, more generic code, such as C, Fortran, or Cobol. This makes programs more portable, however, they are unable to run directly on the computer, as they are not in that computer's language (machine code).
I'm happy to educate you, just as you've educated me, of course.
>You had to dig pretty deep to come up with that, didn't you? Show me statistics that indicate that this is a major - or even minor - concern for ONE PERCENT of computer users the world over, and I'll eat my hat.
It's what I sell, it's what I use. And that's the same reverse argument I use about the Mac: Show me 1% of users that think the ability to use photoshop is a minor concern to using their computer. The numbers will be about equal (you'd be surprised how many people want these cards -- I've sold 1 per 2 computers I've sold -- I can't even keep the damn things in stock they fly off the shelves that fast!).
>And if I could get a 700 series BMW for ten bucks, that'd be great too. Straw
man again. That must be the only trick you know?
I think I already told you once, fuck you.
This time, the jokes on you. I *run* a computer store. Here's the specs, and if you want that machine for that price, I'll be happy to ship it to you tomorrow (shipping not included, of course). No, it's well above wholesale prices, I don't take anything close to a "hit" on cost at this price. Maybe before you accuse someone of a straw man argument (which is the only way YOU know of ending a conversation you can't win) you'd like to click the link under someone's username?
Specs:
- 1.3 Ghz Duron CPU
- 128 MB RAM
- 40 GB HDD
- 52x CD-ROM
- Built on Video, LAN, Sound
- Windows XP Home edition, pre-installed, ready to go
So, tell me, being that these are all new parts, what equivalent new low-end Mac can I purchas
>False analogy. My Mac powerbook goes to the same websites, runs the same java apps, runs the same Perl scripts, reads the same word documents, plays the same music, burns the same CDs and DVDs, writes to the same network shares, authenticates with the same domains, plays the same movies, views the same pictures, uses the same USB devices, uses the same wireless and ethernet standards, can hook up to the same televisions and stereos, and plugs into the same wall sockets as any other laptop.
:-)
No, it isn't a false analogy.
People who don't speak english can do anything someone who can speak english can do, within the confines of their own language. Just like with a Mac, according to you, you can do anything I'd do on a PC (I doubt that very much, but hey, for the sake of argument I'll pretend you're right) except you can't run anything I would run. You can run translations of the apps, but that's as close as it gets. I've heard "The windows version of this app works better" from enough Mac users to know that doesn't cut it.
That's just like someone who speaks French can say any English word translated into French, but it still isn't English, is it?
>Your basis for comparison is ten years out of date, at least.
Interesting. Can I record DVB-S signals on a Mac yet? That's the main use of my PC at the moment. Oh, and I need to be able to run all the various Xbox and PS2 modchip tools also. I can do that with a Mac also? If so, cool! If not, well, it's a waste of my money to buy a Mac.
I guess, last but not least, I can buy a Mac for $459.99 CDN new including the OS, right? Because if I could, that'd be cool -- I might actually try one then.
But then again, those things were invented within the last 10 years, so perhaps Macs are only 10 years out of date. Beats me! Why not inform me on this! It's the opportunity of a lifetime!
>The company is just protecting their IP from pirates
:o)
Actually, they weren't.
They were just trying to stop their software from being used like a book. Why, I have no idea. Perhaps they're stupid (these losses do sorta prove that notion).
>And come on a quick internet connection or phone call is neither expensive or much effort, especially given the prices of software these days.
Good point. I guess when you have so much money to invest into expensive single use software, you should be able to afford being on hold.
>But any complaints beyond that usually come from people who are angry that they can't get warez of Tax/Word/Office/Game blubb anymore.
LOL. As if!
>I don't know why companies should deactivate product activation to support thieves.
Since when did product activation stop people from shoplifting?