Slashdot Mirror
Intuit Apologizes to Turbo Tax Customers
tstoneman writes "Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers over their product activation code. Let's hope that they have learned their lesson, and that other companies will heed this warning. Nonetheless, I am still seething over their malware that they installed without letting me know, and despite the apology, I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."
here and here
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
I wonder what half-brained "DRM" scheme they will come up with next year? Remember; this is not the first year they've tried draconian "anti-piracy" measures...
$50-90 million? Or 50-90 million customers?
They lost both.
Option-Shift-K.
"Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers"
Are their customers people or dollar bills?
They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.
Use the web version. One cost, no malware, and usable from anywhere with a browser!
$ man woman *
-bash:
That's a big range, especially if you're talking about customers. 50-90 million customers would be, what, $100 million to $180 million in revenue?
"I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."
I'm not sure if TaxCut will be my choice permanently, but I am sure that I'll forever look for something other than Intuit.
Call me a jerk about it, or whatever. I just don't see why I ever need to give a business a second chance after they've been a ball-muncher. I just say "good bye" and never look back.
Intuit issues an apology? It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission How about Intuit starts showing their conscience by sending cheques to registered owners of the crippled software. Only then would I be convinced they mean it.
Trolling is a art,
Isn't this the shite that flipped a bit in the HDD boot record (in an unused area, of course) to show that it was "activated"?
Oh, I see, you are. When you said "permanently," I wasn't certain.. but "permanently from now on" makes it all crystal clear.
Yeah, suck it IRS Sux0r5. AND Turbo Tax. And Dubya. You ain't getting ONE CENT of the money I didn't earn this year. Roll that in your budget and smoke it.
I guess people are deciding that they're no longer into it?
Read it once more if you didn't get it.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
To appease former customers, Intuit will be including a free Speaker Bracelet in-box with a purchase of next year's Turbo Tax. According to President Lardass of Intuit: We've got candle trucks of these things ready to go!
"Mountain View-based Intuit plans to publish the letter as an advertisement in Thursday's editions of USA Today and The Wall Street Journal. The letter also will be posted on several Web sites."
;)
I wonder if slashdot is one of those websites they were planning on posting the letter on as an advertisement?
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Intuit drops DRM feature from Turbo Tax
If Intuit was a monoploy, they would have stuck with their plan. But, since there good alternatives, they have to change their ways or give way. I wonder if such a backlash will work against WinXp activation. My guess is it won't due to the monopoly.
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
The only reason they dropped it, or so they claim anyway, is because they have competition. Microsoft will keep their "super intrusive pain in my ass if you change your sound card you have to call and explain that you purchased your OS" system. The reason is that they have no competition. I use Linux primarily but have you ever tried convincing a windows user to switch to another OS.....it doesn't happen, in my experience at least.
If a company chooses a product activation scheme which doesn't transmit any personal data and allows the change of hardware etc then I don't see why product activation should be evil.
The company is just protecting their IP from pirates. And come on a quick internet connection or phone call is neither expensive or much effort, especially given the prices of software these days. There should be sophisticated schemes for mass installs of course.
But any complaints beyond that usually come from people who are angry that they can't get warez of Tax/Word/Office/Game blubb anymore. I don't know why companies should deactivate product activation to support thieves.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
You mean they're not suing them?
This post was generated by a Cadre of Uber Monkeys for Monkey-Man2000 (603495).
...or let them know you do accept it...here:
https://orderupdate.intuit.com/corporate.asp
This was a hot issue in Feb-Apr of this year.. What took them so long?
I used TurboTax for my '01 taxes, but because of this incident I changed to Tax Cut last year. I will be sticking with Tax Cut.
I was pissed at Intuit before this incident anyway. They also play those shady rebate games. The TurboTax'01 box stated 'Free State Tax' forms. Once I opened it, I found it was not included, but needed to be downloaded - no problem. Go to download it, and they insist on charging me $20 for the download with the opportunity to mail in rebate forms for a refund. Screw them.
I'm proud to use gnuTaxes. It's a little rough as of version 0.0.4, but the price is right.
Frankly, I think that gnuTaxes is the way to go if you're looking for tax preparation software. Anyone who pays $30 for TurboTax deserves what they get.
For more information, click here.
I was prefectly happy when I switched to TaxCut. It imported my previous year's returns from TurboTax and was generally very easy to use. Plus it was less expensive. And there was no DRM to fight with and no crap being secretly written to my boot block. I think Intuit really shot themselves in the foot over this. I have no intention of going back to TurboTax, apology or not. There's no reason to now.
A bit off topic, but I wonder how Valve's draconian DRM system called Steam is going to fair in the long run? I haven't seen a DRM system that has done well in the market yet. Could Steam be the first or will it pull an Intuit?
When all else fails, run.
Ok, here's what I want to know: Why is it that Intuit got such a backlash from this that they removed the protection scheme and even issued a public apology, but Microsoft gets away with the same thing and even worse yet with their Windows XP product activation? It baffles me how this kind of thing is just ignored when Microsoft does it...
That is great to see top management listening to the customers, and apologizing, even if it was only after they spoke out with thier money, or lack there of.
I still tend to think that other companies like those of games makers and OS's, would still be able to get away with implementing activiation codes. Money issues are what people feel most need for privacy using software.
I still fail to see what's such a big deal about product activation. I mean, hasn't it been required for ages in AutoCAD? Didn't 3ds max start using activation a long time ago? Hasn't Adobe picked it up? Where's the outcry from all of their customers?
Developers have a right to protect their products from unauthorized copying.
The best thing developers could do to alleviate fears over this, in my opinion, would be to patch the activation out at end-of-life. That way, consumers would be able to use extremely old products as needed.
Why is there a -1 score on this wonderful, insightful post?
Seth, you're a dark hero in a light world.
Hopefully, there's a stupid dope with an MBA diploma in his pocket who's on the popular soup line right now.
Personally, I was ticked off at the activation mechanism; it was downright stupid for them to require installation *and* running of a resident program to ensure people don't steal their software when that software is (usually) used only once. I really want CDILLA running in background all year when I took 3 hours ONE TIME to do my taxes. Or, of course, it has to all be uninstalled (bear in mind, you were required to uninstall TurboTax *before* you could remove CDILLA... otherwise you wouldn't be able to uninstall TurboTax!).
I read a bunch of suggestions that would have made more sense for their security. For example, generate a key that uses the address used to file the taxes... sure, you still have the annoyance of having to contact them for a registration key, but you remove the necessity of having separate keys for different machines, and reinstall is a snap.
Of course, you could also key it off of a SSN, but that's a little too "big brother" for my taste.
Although it requires more trust on the consumer's part (ok, admittedly, I don't have this level of trust for Intuit), they could expand their online version of the tax software... not only control who has access, but you eliminate the annoyance of keeping old copies of the software around (for tax revision, whatever), updates, and even storage of old returns. And they save tons of cash on not distributing media.
It could be spun as a "win-win" for the consumer.
Nope... they chose to put a resident program on my computer. Using my resources to "protect" their property. Unacceptable.
Despite the affiliation with Microsoft, I too will be switching to TaxCut.
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
You mean the store chain that has people arrested if they bring a pad and paper and copy down prices to compare? (Washington DC a few years ago).
Or perhaps the Best Buy that advertised that NVidia (I think) video card, then took it back and said the offer was no good, and then called the cops when the one customer came in with the coupon and wanted his video card (That one was on Slashdot).
That must be the "customer friendly" Best Buy you are talking about.
Too often companies hear only negative things and don't hear from customers when they do the right thing. They boned up, apologized, and have said they won't do it next year. So why not let them know they did the right thing? At the bottom of their page with the activation numbers is a rating and comment box for how effective the solution was.
When are they going to apologize for requiring Internet Exploder 5.5 for Quicken 2004 to work? In Q2000 I could force it to use Netscape with 128 bit encryption, but no such luck with the new one. Of course by the time I figured this out the box was open, and there's no chance CompUSA is going to take a return....
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
... on software. You know who I'm talking about. :)
Adobe is introducing product activation, Symantec has added product activiation to the latest Norton Antivirus product for consumers, and I know someone who works for another large consumer software company who will be introducing activation. In addition, Macromedia was rumored to be adding activation to StudioMX but I haven't heard if they went through with it or not.
This will be a growing pain until enough companies realize that they're only pissing off consumers because those who want to copy it will find a way.
Put the activation on an included USB dongle, instead of the hard drive. Easy-to-use product activation, plus a USB drive. Make the drive difficult to reproduce, but operate as a standard drive, and you got happy customers instead of pissed off ones.
I used to work for the big H&R Block Taxcut tech support center in Kansas City, MO. I essentially worked tech support for their tech support... made sure their computers kept operating properly and such.
Anyway, my real purpose for posting is this: only switch to Taxcut if you absolutely have to. Even the people who wrote Taxcut openly admitted that TurboTax was by far the better software. Taxcut went into production largely untested at that point anyway (2001 tax year). Just my two cents I guess.
-----------------------------------------
Remove the Greed which plagues mankind.
We bought "Impots Rapide" from Intuit last year to do our taxes for the year (you know, the ones where you give almost half the money you earned this year? I don't know the proper word in english, sorry). It came with an activation code. When you started the software, it gave you another number. You had to call Intuit and give them the number in the manual and the number on your screen. They gave you a third one to unlock the software on the computer. "Great, I though, wait till we buy a new computer..."
Well, what had to happen happened. We bought a new computer, and when we tried to install "Impots Rapide" with the code Intuit gave us, it of course didn't work anymore, because the code that is given on the screen when you start it for the first time is based on some info about your computer, so we had to call them back.
Though we were only a phone call away from reactivating the software, I still had to wait 15 minutes to get in touch with a representative, and I don't like to have to phone the company I bought the product from to reactivate it because I did something as simple as buying a new computer.
And it's not like I really have any other choice. It's either that or doing my taxes with a pencil and an eraser. I've been doing my taxes with the computer for 6 years now, and it only takes an hour each time. I'm not sure I want to go back to the old fashionned way and waste two or three evenings. And I can send my taxes report electronically, so I can get back my tax refunds two weeks after sending them, instead of waiting a few months.
Quicken has apologized to its customers and I can respect that. As an ex-quicken customer (buyer of over 5 years of its financial planner and tax program), I remain unmoved. There are several companies which have earned my "wrath" through betrayal of trust (Wachovia Bank, America West, Air Tran and Jet Blue Airlines being fairly prominent members on the List). It is inconceivable that I will do business with any of these organizations in the future....and so it goes for Quicken Corp. I have no personal vendetta against the employees of Quicken corporation, but I firmly believe in using my dollars (and the dollars of friends and family) to kill the corporate culture which gave rise to the concept of CD-Dilla. What can the corporation do to "make it up to me?"..nothing..the trust I had in the corporation is gone, and considering the alternative options available I see no reason to ever pay attention to attempts to restore it. I hope the corporation can make good use of its 2003 revenue stream, because they have lost at least 40 years of future revenue from myself, my family and friends. And yes - I'm still pissed.
Pyrmaid scheme o
-- Jeams Dean
I used TaxCut last year because I didn't like what intuit was doing. I imported my previous years TurboTax file and added new data. I got to one screen that complained about a date and crashed TaxCut. It would not reload my saved data.
I called for help and they told me to start all over again - sheeesh!!!
I had to edit the binary TaxCut file with vi and slowly change date numbers until I finally got it to load again.
Like the beaver, it's just Dam one thing after another
The delicious irony of it all is that Intuit thought they could get more sales by treating their customers like criminals. Now the apology letters are flying and they are trying to get their market share back. I hope the RIAA is watching.
-R
Excellent. Now I can go back to pirating TurboTax!
When Intuit launched the copy-control program, it predicted that revenue would increase, since customers who had previously purchased only one TurboTax program would have to buy a separate copy for each computer in the house.
...and...
To its credit, Intuit listened to these complaints and reversed course. "We're taking a mulligan," says Julie Miller, a company spokeswoman. "The customer reaction was unexpected."
Ok, so you want to charge people a couple hundred ( most versions of their software run at least that much ) bucks for a software package. That's cool. Now, where they used to be able to install it on various computers so they could, you know, get work done, NOW you want to charge them PER COMPUTER. So, instead of 400 bucks, we're talking 800/1200/1600 for a single household.
What the fuck did they expect from their customers, a parade?
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
USB drives require USB 1.1 and some 2.0 Many people out there don't even support USB 1.0, let alone higher.
Out of 4 machines at my house, 2 do not run USB, one runs 1.0 and the other 1.1
Dongles are worse than product activation! If you had lived thru the Parallel port versions you would know that.
Last year, when my Dad wanted to do his taxes that way, his only 2 machines didn't support USB at all.
I'll stick to pencil and paper thanks. I mean these people can't even figure out that my state is one of 2 that has NO state income tax (and release a product specifically geared for the state income tax as well)!
Read my lips! No... aw, nevermind.
TaxACT is free for federal. State is only $13 and $8 per return. I tried it last year; it's just as easy to use as the others.
p er sonal.asp
http://www.2ndstorysoftware.com/products/index_
As more and more people have Internet connections, software vendors are beginning to realize that they can rely on almost all users to have an Internet connection, and can exploit this fact.
Eventually, they will become ASPs (especially with one-off software like annual tax software) where important chunks of functionality run server-side. No more piracy.
May we never see th
Oh... I didn't think so.
Just sayin', ya know...
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Isn't that also how Windows XP's activation scheme works?
Intuit's methods last year caused me to seek alternatives to their products. I had used TurboTax for 4 or 5 years, and use Quicken 99 still. I tried TaxCut and have no reason to go back to TT. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll switch my finances away from Quicken also (I need the online banking features. And no, I'm not going to use anything where my account info etc. is all stored anywhere but my local computer.)
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
We need this action (Intuit's use of DRM) to have a PERMANENT reduction/effect on their bottom line. Only then will other companies realize what a bad idea it is and not follow suit.
BC
Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers
/me shakes head and goes back to coding.
First there are business models based on litigation, now customers are bought instead of won?
I will never understand business..
do() || do_not();
You're lucky I have no karma points, pal.
I used TaxAct last year, it's free (no need for me for state edition) and only ~$10 for e-filing. Don't think I would like to trust software version 0.0.0.4 with my finances, anyway
I switched to Kiplinger's and found it to provide the same function, cheaper. Why bother going back now that I've got this year's directory for next year's taxes?
Some one mentioned Adobe. Someone should tell them that PDF may soon mean "Please Don't Flee."
There is a valuable lesson here, that Bezos and others have learned the hard way: Don't Piss Off the Internet.
If this were easy, they wouldn't need us to do it!
Revenue increased 29 percent, year over year, to $634.7 million. Net income rose to $294 million. All good -- except the company had told analysts to expect revenues between $685 million and $725 million./P
Revenue was $50 million to $90 million less than expected.
Dear God, man! You actually bought a Divx player? And you admit it in public???
Your geek credentials are hereby revoked! I banish you from Slashdot! You, and your children, and your children's children!
My personal tax solution has served me well for 5 years now. It was extremely affordable, did not require activation, runs on several platforms, works for an unlimited number of unique users, does not require updating between tax years, and will never expire.
Well, I suppose eventually, it'll get too short from repeated sharpenings, and I'll need to buy a new pencil... but you get my point.
Geez, people, do all of you guys file as your own business? Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada. Why are people so afraid of 'em? You get some slips in the mail, you copy the numbers over onto the forms, do a little math, and presto, you get some money back. They'll even double-check your numbers for you, and if you missed a deduction, they'll adjust for you, and you'll get more money back.
What's the big attraction about spending $30/year or whatever on the latest-and-greatest tax software, or paying some suit at H&R Block to do simple arithmetic for you?
Aren't we supposed to be among the smartest of society? Or at least among the most mathematically adept? Why the big fear? The satisfaction of filing your own taxes and doing it all on paper is pretty rewarding, I must say.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
> I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now
> on.
I've used it a couple times because of the Microsoft Money rebates you get when you purchase both...it's not really intuitive and there were a few annoying bugs that made me think twice...I dunno what I'm gonna do this year. Maybe sit there with a calculator and green visor and do the #@#%#$ by hand...
I used Turbo Tax last year, now I have C-Dilla on my HD. Everytime I scan for malware the only thing I leave is C-Dilla because I need it to run Turbo Tax to check last year's filing. My question is can I use my frikin legally purchased copy of Turbo Tax now without C-Dilla. I don't give a crap about an apology. They treated me like a pirate for buying their software. I want that shit off my HD and I want to use my licensed software to check that digital copy of turbo tax for the next several years.
Can I? Anyone?
P.S. If after a bit of research I find I can do my taxes with another piece of software I shall. You can support these assholes if you like, I'm going to find someone I can trust more with my important financial data (that trust is about access to my own data as well as privacy, privacy is NOT the only concern), that right now means anyone who makes decent tax software and isn't called Intuit.
Don't put DRM that could screw over the systems of unsuspecting customers, your biggest market? (since every American has to pay taxes) Ok, fair enough. Some DRM goes too far.
But if the lesson is "don't use copy protection - embrace rampant piracy" then I have to disagree. We have a double edged sword here - digital mediums are easy to use and easy to abuse. I see copy protection as a reminder that you have to pay for each copy of something you use, unless the EULA says otherwise (and theirs will be amended, I see). I don't see it as a presumption of guilt. There were like 15 million TurboTax returns in 2001 - and 5.5 million copies of TurboTax sold.
And because I didn't want to have to unhose my Wife's PC I pointed her to TaxCut. She hated it. She cursed me for making her use it. Parts of it weren't even on the CD and wouldn't be available online for months when we did our taxes (January or so). When I told her of what TurboTax could do, she didn't care. She said it would be worth the risk. Fortunately most people don't think like her.
Just use the online version of TurboTax, I say.
Schnapple
Once burned, twice shy.
Tax Preparers Peddle High Priced Tax Refund Loans
Millions Skimmed from the Working Poor and the U. S. Treasury
http://www.consumerfed.org/taxpreparers. PDF
(Pdf) Html version available from google cache
Consumer Federation of America
National Consumer Law Center
January 31, 2002
Findings/Executive Summary
Refund anticipation loans (RALs) are usurious short-term loans secured by the taxpayer's tax
refund, which often includes the Earned Income Tax Credit. Loans cost from 67% to 774%
APR. RALs share many characteristics of fringe financial products such as rent-to-own,
payday loans, and car title pawns, which target vulnerable low-to moderate- income
consumers who can least afford their triple-digit interest rates.
The refund anticipation loan industry primarily consists of commercial tax preparers and the
banks that provide the loans. Banks are used to evade state usury and small loan rate caps. In
2000, consumers paid an estimated $810 million in RAL fees. Tax refund loan costs siphon off an estimated $324 million in loan fees and cost an additional $670 million in tax preparation, electronic filing fees, and check cashing fees every year from the Earned Income Tax Credit (ETIC), the largest federal anti-poverty program. Forty percent of taxpayers who get a RAL are EITC recipients. EITC recipients often get a RAL because they do not have the cash in hand to pay the fees for commercial tax preparation services needed to file the complex forms and to avoid IRS audits of EITC filings.Many consumers who get a refund anticipation loan do not even know they have taken out a loan against their tax refund. For many years, some commercial tax preparers have been accused of misleading consumers about the loan transactions and of receiving kickbacks from banks.
There is very little federal governmental regulation of RALs. Although the IRS has issued
rules requiring tax preparers to advertise RALs as loans, enforcement has been left to class
action lawsuits and state enforcement agencies. The IRS does not regulate the loan fees. The
states' ability to do so is hampered by federal law. The IRS is under a mandate from Congress to expand electronic tax filing to 80% of filed returns by 2007. Electronic filing is a driving force behind refund anticipation loans. The IRS reinstated a controversial Debt Indicator service that lowers the risk of RALs for the commercial tax preparers and partner banks, yet the costs of RALs have not decreased proportionately.
Refund Anticipation Loans Are Usurious Small Loans
Refund anticipation loans (RALs) are part of the fringe financial industry which includes
pawns, car title pawns, payday loans, and rent-to-own transactions. RALs provide quick credit to vulnerable consumers at a steep price, including the potential risk of ruined credit ratings and debt collection harassment. RALs target low- to moderate-income consumers with few resources and great financial needs. Consumers often are mislead into thinking of RALs as "quick refunds," not understanding that they are loans.
Instead of waiting to receive tax refunds, RAL customers borrow against part or all of
their expected tax refund. The tax refund may include the Earned Income Tax Credit, a federally provided benefit for poor working families that is generally distributed in a lump sum through the tax system.
The Price of RALS
Consumers pay three fees to get a refund anticipation loan: a fee to a commercial tax
preparer for filling out the federal and state tax forms, typically $60 to $300; a fee for the
electronic filing, with the average fee being $40;
and a loan fee to the lender, typically set on a sliding scale based on the amount of the expected refund. Typical loan fees range from $29 to $89,but can be as high as half the refund.
What the consumer receives in hand is the refund minus the loan fee, the tax preparation fee, and the electronic filing fee. The total amount of the three
Shouldn't we reward that? I mean, has "TaxCut" promised not to do idiotic things like this? Is it impossible to forgive an organization that makes mistakes? Why do we seem to have double-standards on these things? Is it cynicism, or stupidity?
>> I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."
Beware. A few years ago, when I had a "5 figure" federal tax liability, I ran my #s through both TT and TC. Using TT actually saved me approximately $15,000 (!!!!) [and no, I did not take the time to pinpoint exactly how this happened.]
Until I hear what they have to say about it, saying you are going to apologize doesn't count. I am guessing that the only reason they are sorry is because people got pissed and went to a different product. i.e. they aren't sorry for what they did, and don't recognize why it was wrong. Of course they'll issue an apology to try and get business back, but have they fixed the *real* issue? Probably not. Unless they admit that what they did was wrong, and show they understand why, then all they are doing is kissing ass because tax season is coming up.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Hey stupid posters, you don't have to have bought a DivX player to be angry at Circuit City for having tried to push the format. I also have not shopped there, and never will again - sometimes a company deserves no forgivness, only bankruptcy. If you give them money, what's to say they wil not try the same trick later on?
Similarily for Turbo Tax I am not going to buy Intuit software for quite a while, although my own stance is a little softer there. If Intuit folds, it could mean bad things for the industry. I think a few years of lean sales might help show quite a few people that product activation is a poor idea.
I think an "apology" is not enough. They need to seek atonemnet, though what form that might take I am not sure.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Especially keeping in mind their page says they hope to release 1.0.0 by the end of the year 2000.
I just set up a multi-sheet spreadsheet in gnumeric. On one sheet I enter all my slips; those values are referenced by the federal and provincial sheets. Bingo, all done, now I copy to the paper forms.
I must have missed it when that meme was introduced here on /. Would some kind person care to explain?
Can someone please translate the original posting into English?
Thank you.
I used TurboTax, and its predecessors, all the way back to 1985. That was three or four companies ago. It was always very satisfactory, and there seemed to be no reason to change, so I didn't change.
All they had to do to keep me as a customer forever was to not screw up.
Well, last year they screwed up. So I switched.
And you know what? As you'd expect in a highly competitive environment... the differences between TurboTax and TaxCut hardly amount to a hill of beans. In fact the general design of the programs is pretty similar and I barely had to consult the online help. On balance, EXCEPT for the product activation nonsense, the two products are roughly on a par.
If there had been any doubt in my mind, a few bad experiences with Intuit's so-called customer support resolved them. (I don't know how H&R Block's compares... because I didn't need to use it).
I _did_ need to re-enter a lot of my basic information from last year.
Switch back? Why should I go to the effort? I am now a TaxCut customer. And there's no reason at all H&R Block shouldn't be able to keep me for life.
All they need to do is not screw up.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
A GOOD CPA, knows the tax system better than any program can and have insights and experience with the various writeoffs and such to maximize your returns. You'll DEFINITELY pay more (~10x more), but quite often they pay for themselves in the size of the return you get. Don't go with your vanilla HR Block - seek out recommendations and go with independents who know the game and how to play it without breaking the rules.
As a long term Intuit/Quicken customer, I was a bit turned off by that move. Now that I work for a bank I've seen other darker sides to Quicken as well.
MS Money from what I have seen, will allow you to reconcile your accounts against a downloaded list. Quicken/Intuit on the other hand forces banks to be on their system to give the customer the ability to do that. This strategy effectively ties to strong-arm banks to use sign contracts with them Intuit. For smaller banks, this can be problematic.
I am also running Quicken '02 - I've been using Quicken now for 10 years and my father has been using it since Quicken for DOS! Quicken is becoming more and more a stupid billboard in which to advertise other services from Intuit. Their marketing is becoming more intrusive and I for one dislike that.
Just as I will never fly jetblue for releasing customer info (even if the other carriers eventually do the same).
Just as I haven't stepped foot in a sears store since 1988 because they screwed me on a replacement part for a compressor to keep my production line running (Frank Pelosi Jr, regional manager in 1988, I still remember your name),
They can apologise till blue in the face. Regardless of the apology, I will never again buy any of their products.
Ever.
Even if other tax software companies eventually take the same path. They were first. They will receive the full wrath of taxpayers. And they need to be made an example of.
Disgusting to see the apology coming now, with the start of the new tax season.
One thing you don't do is fuck with people's tax records.
Got that fuckfaces at Intuit?
GO TO HELL!!! There will be no next time...
I, for one, am grateful, as TaxCut is a POS. I've tried it two separate years, succumbing to the trap of a cheaper product. Both years, I wished that I hadn't skimped. TurboTax is by far the best tax software out there, and I'm very happy that Intuit has seen the error in their ways and remedied the situation, as I'd go back to paper before using TaxCut!!! (paper would be easier)
Software installation is SO twentieth century. I use Turbo Tax Online- no more installation issues, no more worries about keeping everything installed and updated whenever I have to rebuild a machine from scratch, and somebody else handles my backups with a system that's probably a lot more reliable than my habit of burning important stuff to a CD and stuffing it in a drawer. On top of that, I don't have OS issues, because the web interface worked just fine across Linux, Mac OS, and Windows. Good luck getting prepacked software like that.
Sure some people might bitch about "privacy" concerns, but how private are my taxes? If I do an online transfer it goes through a third party, usually the software manufacturer; if I do it through the mail there are plenty of chances to steal it along the way, and god only knows how many dishonest people may be working in the IRS mailroom.
Web services ROCK. It's time consumers caught on!
If you don't like something they did, destroy them on a biblical scale that no manager in any company will even think about suggesting something like this again.
You want people to say "That tax software company did something like that, people hated it, stopped buying their product and they went from first in the industry to bankrupcy. Lets just trust our customers."
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
TaxCut worked beautifully for me ...hold on, there's a knock at the door...federal agents!!! Aaahhhh!!!
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
We should just abolish income tax completely, and switch completely over to a scheme of deficit spending tied with government manipulation of interest rates.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Lloyd Christmas: "TurboLax. One teaspoon for fast effective relief. (Pours the entire bottle into Harry's punch)."
In Soviet Russia, candle truck driving overlords welcome YOU.
I did, and I understand the issues perfectly.
It still plays DVDs just fine, and wouldn't have made your "investment" worthless if it had lived. On the contrary, I think if Divx had lived it would not have killed DVDs, but new release DVDs would still be $13 instead of $20. There is no reason why the two formats couldn't have coexisted and competed.
As for the DRM issues, do you think your privacy is any more secure with Blockbuster or your cable company? Do you ever use a credit card?
I understand why for certain special movies people want to "own" a DVD of it, but I don't think Divx ever threatened that. Killing Divx was in Warner Bros. best interest, not yours, and its death is just as much a money grab by the studios as you claim divx was a money grab by CC.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
Apparently, the new Macromedia MX 2004 suite uses SafeCast/C-Dilla.
If you're some punk kind who earns $30K and has no mortgage, great.
Otherwise, it won't work for you.
They originally announced that the reason that they wouldn't put the malware in the next release is because their studies showed that it didn't reduce piracy. You can be sure that if it had worked, they wouldn't be sending out this apology today.
They do not listen to customers, they listen to revenue. They put in DRM believing it would increase their revenue; as the article says, "[Intuit] predicted that revenue would increase, since customers who had previously purchased only one TurboTax program would have to buy a separate copy for each computer in the house". No part of that plan serves the customer. Similarly, the only reason they changed it is because they lost a ton of money.
It just so happened in this case that customers were able to weild enough power to hurt their revenues. Thinking that they "listened to customers" is to miss the fact that they would have continued to screw customers as long as they could have squeezed more revenue out of them by doing so. That they changed course here is not to their credit in any sense other than that they're not pathologically oblivious to the failure of their plan to screw customers.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
I sent a letter to Visa disputing the charges and I got my money back from last year. Here's a copy of the letter:
.pdf file from that computer.
National City Bank
P.O. Box 2859
K-A12-F6
Kalamazoo, Mi 49003
Re: Account XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
Dear Customer Service,
Every year I purchase both Turbo Tax for Business and Turbo Tax Deluxe for home. This year was no different. Unfortunately neither of these two software packages have worked properly. I have made every effort to contact Intuit, the maker of Turbo Tax, to get this problem resolved. Inuit does not offer phone support. Instead they offer an online chat room. The chat room does not offer service in the traditional sense. The chat room operators seem to be capable of only providing instructions from a script. Over the course of a week the only instructions I got was to re-install Windows, make sure windows has the latest service packs installed and re-install Turbo Tax. All of which I did multiple times.
I also attempted to install Turbo Tax on my wife's computer but got a message that this version of Turbo Tax was already activated. Turbo Tax will not permit their software to be installed on another computer in my household - even if it will not install on my primary computer. Here's a verbatim quote of the Turbo Tax FAQ concening product activation taken directly from the Turbo Tax web site:
Do I need to purchase a new product license if I reinstall TurboTax?
Whether or not you need to activate TurboTax again (that is, purchase a new product license) depends upon your particular situation:
If you reinstall the same version of TurboTax on the same computer that it was previously activated on, you do not need to purchase a new product license.
If you install TurboTax on another computer before October 16, 2003, you need to purchase a new product license only if you want to print from within the program, electronically file, or save your tax return as a
Example: You activate TurboTax on your home computer and attempt to electronically file your tax return, but problems with your Internet connection prevent you from filing successfully. The next day, you install TurboTax at work. In order to electronically file your tax return from your work computer, you must purchase a new product license by activating TurboTax on your work computer.
Attempts to contact Intuit via e-mail only result in the following response:
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:54 -0800
From: service@intuit.com
To: bruce@shockwave.xxxxxx.org
Subject: re: your request
Dear Bruce Collins,
Thank you for contacting Intuit Inc.
In response to your correspondence, we apologize for the inconvenience caused to you. However we are unable to give a call back to you as we dont have access to this facility. Please contact us through service chat by visitng www.turbotaxsupport.com so that we can assist you.
If you have additional questions, please visit us at http://www.intuit.com/service. We appreciate your interest and look forward to serving you in the future.
Respectfully,
Viney
Customer Response Specialist
In addition, repeated attempts to contact Intuit via regular mail have been fruitless.
The bottom line is that I can not get Tubo Tax to run on my system. I can not get Intuit to answer the phone or provide a meaningful response to e-mails and I've wasted 16 hours in a chat room. Any attempt to install Turbo Tax on my wife's system would result in having to pay Inuit again even though the product never worked on my system. In the event I was foolish enough to install Turbo Tax on my wife's computer, there is no assurance it would work. If I put 50 cents in a coke machine and don't get my coke, I don't keep feeding it money.
As far as I am concerned the Turbo Tax products are defective. Had I been aware of the draconian product activation features, I would have never purchased Turbo Tax in the first place.
In short Best Buy Sucks Ass, Don't Shop There Ever!!
And on the odd chance you care here are Some more stories of Best Buy mistreating customers and employees
Sure, we can do pretty much all accounting, filing, and other clerical work on paper. We can also write letters instead of emailing and phoning, whee. The point is, technology is here to make our lives easier, and I find it much more rewarding to use computer/internet technology to turn a stressful task like tax-filing into a pleasant one.
Last year, I started filing my taxes on paper, calculating and recalculating and wondering if I've missed something, then I went to ufile.ca, took me half an hour to do everything and I was done with little stress. Some of the best dollars I've spent.
Get an accountant. Let them do your taxes. Less work, less aggravation -- and a much better chance of getting it done right the first time...
They added the DRM to their product because they got greedy, pure and simple. It wasn't a way to improve their product or their service, it was a way to improve their bottom line.
Now that their bottom line has been affected, they're apologizing. I don't consider that "listening to their customers", I consider it "panic".
They thought they could get away with screwing their customer base; they were wrong. Don't reward them for backtracking over something they never should have done in the first place.
However, if Intuit is PERMANENTLY hurt as a result of this DRM crap, and their competitors (HR & Block's TaxCut, etc) who do NOT push DRM are thriving and permanently pick up marketshare from Intuit, then that's a concrete example as to why no company should even attempt to use DRM in any products.
Don't let Intuit get away with this. It will give other companies an excuse to try DRM, rather than stay away from it all together. Don't go back to TurboTax. Use TaxCut or one of the many alternatives.
The same one that has a 30 day return policy, and so,
when I attempted to return a christmas gift that someone had given me, they wouldn't take it back, as I had the receipt, which showed it was bought in November, so I would've had 2 days from Christmas to have returned it within the 30 days.
It was still in the wrapper, still had the 'Best Buy' price tag on it, I had the receipt, and I was just trying to get store credit. I think what pissed me off more was that I had to drive about 25 miles to the nearest Best Buy (Annapolis, MD) in the first place, and then stood in line for a good 45 minutes, and they just blew me off.
I haven't purchased anything from Best Buy since.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
You know, if you want a fair and decent way to do product activation, maybe the idea of tying the product to a single computer is taking the wrong approach...
How about using some sort of portable id storage device (like a USB keydrive or a Dallas Semiconductor Crypto I-Button) to store the activation. No more concerns about installing the software on hundreds of computers. Just tie the id storage device to the software somehow, and take the id device where-ever you need to run the software from.
How hard is that?
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
First know that I am completely against their TOS with the software, as well as their recent use of the bootsector of the HD to keep a product registered. But, there are a few things I think we should all keep in mind.
I did work tech/sales support for Turbotax last year, and eventually went up the branch to be the "mentor" or "floor supervisor", so I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass, it is straight from the top. The days of panic and both customer and agents crying are still vidily in my head.
1. Intuit was already losing quite literally more than a few hundred thousand dollars from previous TurboTax releases. Since very, very minor security had been put in place to ensure software protection, it was passed around like candy. The statistcs proved that for every copy we gave out, it was the same copy that at least 15 other people had already used. 15 being the smallest number I can think of from that statistic report. The software was pirated beyond belief and Intuit wanted to implement a security policy NOW.
2. Intuit needed a security policy, obviously, so they told the coders to think of something and fast. So they did. No one ever expected for the process to be so incredibly cumbersome or restricting. Administration loved it though, (mostly tax advisors than computer savvy) and it was put on the market with the security features implmented. The point remains, that even if this security feature is downright disgusting, something had to be done.
3. After Intuit found out how horribly wrong the activation was, it was a little bit too late. A lot was done to compensate the customers calling in, free states, free this, no questions asked refunds, etc. Internally, Intuit was working it's ass off to reconcile for the unruley security measure it had taken. The point remains, that even though few people saw it externally, internally (especially for people calling into Intuit) we were working our asses off to apologize and make up for it.
4. Too much damage, too late, on both our side and the customer's side. The reason Intuit began to stop offering refunds and free states so quickly to rectify the situation is because we had a constant flow of customers that would not listen, but would have their lawyer on the other line. We were fully aware that the TOS was wrong, the boot sector usage was wrong, but the coders always convienced the administration that it was vital to the lifestream of the company, despite what the actual workers on the floor would say.
Screamed at, threatened (yes we had plenty of threats over the phone which led to much more than a simple hang up on our side), and such other garbage was not called for, especially for the people on the phones trying hard to make it better.
I don't know, I guess I am just ranting.
But I think it needs to be known that Intuit was well aware of the damage, hated what they had released into the wild, and did everything they could to stop it and at times, even offer out free items to get past the security features.
Sure, sure... we fucked up. But sending a team of laywers week after week is not going to help the situation... in fact.... the eventual overflow of angry screaming customers is enough to drive people to the limits. The foul laungage(spelling off, I know, im tired) and constant ordering of the agents trying to help the customers ruined the confidence and patience that administration had. I know... I quit. The community never gave Intuit the chance to repair what their coders had created.... in short.. a monster.
ouch, sorry about that double post, not sure why that happened
Why did they wait until NOW to apologize? So that the apology would be fresh in people's minds as they go out to purchase a new tax-prep application? Hmmm, I think their timing is self-serving and the apology a lot of baloney. If they meant it they could have issued this many months ago.
What does this have to do with TaxCut (as you mention in your subject), or tax preparation software in general (other than that using software would prevent people from paying the "typically $60 to $300" commercial preparer fee)? And are we supposed to feel sorry that people have to pay for their impatience and/or willful ignorance (aka, foolishness)?
What the consumer receives in hand is the refund minus the loan fee, the tax preparation fee, and the electronic filing fee.
So clearly they understand that they're paying for the convenience of having (some of) their money right away. A fool and his money are soon parted -- is it necessary to hold every fool's hand to protect his wallet?
No Laughing Allowed!
There's a -1 because it's not Seth, it's a frellin' troll.
I use TaxAct personally I don't feel the need to spend $50+ on tax software when I can get my state and federal tax software for $19.95 as a bundle without all the extra stuff that I do not need. TaxACT 2003 Ultimate Bundle from TaxAct.
"Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect." Linus Torvalds
Seth Finklestein is a faker trolling Seth Finkelstein. Another score!
...even if it's fairly simple, this might still be a good idea. Sure, I could get a nice tax program for about half what I pay to get my taxes done, but then I'd have to work, too. (Shudder)
I always thought the smart model would be to charge per tax return. That way users could still use the software wherever they wanted, and print wherever they wanted, (the main complaints), but they wouldn't be able to do everyone in the family for the same $39.95 or give it away to friends, unless they paid for another license to do another return.
I guess the downside to this would be that it would have to be keyed on SSN, and that would make many people nervous.
Under the model Intuit did use, users could still do many tax returns from one copy as long as it was done on the same computer. Put for many people, the computer that they wanted to work from was not necessarily the one they wanted to print from.
By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
Why would you comment on something you know nothing about?
I'm a Canadian that moved to the US. I used to use Quicktax for years, and it was so simple I felt bad for spending the money on Quicktax, because the Canadian tax code is so much simpler than the US. You reduce the amount of taxable income by your RRSP, and that's it. There aren't very many deductions you can take.
In the US, you can file singly, jointly, separately, head of the household (???). You can take the standard deduction or itemized deduction. That took a while to figure out what that meant.
You have the Alternative Minimum Tax which fucked over so many dumb-ass dot-commers that chose to exercise their options instead of outright selling them. They had to claim the difference between the market price and the exercise price as income and then after the stock market crash, they owed thousands, if not millions of dollars on worthless stock.
You have some so many special cases and exemptions, etc that you need a tax program to dumb it down for you.
So, yes, you do need a tax program to do it yourself. Canada is nothing like the US.
And oh yeah, before you start going off on how great Canada is, I used to pay 50% tax on my income over $59,000 but in the US I'm paying 30% taxes on my +$100K income with no state tax. How you like them apples? There are plenty of things that are better in Canada than the States, but it's the taxation that drove me out.
Yeah, since I started a business, I'll be using a local CPA to do both my personal and corp taxes. I'd never used intuit's products until this year, when I got a copy of QuickBooks. Naturally, I borrowed a copy from a friend, and figured I'd give it the requisite free-logins before committing $300+ to it. It's pretty corny looking for a professional suite, but it is fairly easy for non-accounting folks to use.
Did I buy it? No. I got so frustrated with all the advertisements carefully placed to look like program modules I decided to treat it as the ad-ware it is, and got a license off of nntp. Do I feel guilty...well, not very. If I count the eyeball-minutes they get from me every week with their embedded ads, it more than makes up for the lack of direct revenue.
Here on Earth we can get a lot of DVD's for about $10 now. The trend has been downward pricing, and a lot more features to boot!!! Unless you are talking about the demise of 800.com's amazing deals, but that was hardly due to DivX...
DVD's nowadays are about the best bargain going. Certainly better than theaters, a movie has to be damn good now to convince me to head to a theater instead of enjoying it more at home.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I do my taxes by hand. It isn't hard. It is a pain, you have to get a lot of forms, and enter a lot of numbers into your calculator (twice!). However only yourself by hand do you really know how it works. I know a lot of people who think they are deducting their tools and uniforms, but I don't even need to see their forms to know that while they can deduct them, they are not because standard deductions or limits on when you can deduct make it either not worth it, or they are inelligable to do so. I also know (well I've forgotten now, but I knew then) exactly how much tax I paid last year. Not how much I got back, but how much I paid.
If you are the typical apatheic person just hire someone to do your taxes. If you have a buieness they might be complex enough that you don't have time to do them. Otherwise, the typical slashdotter should be intelligent enough to do them by hand, and will learn a lot by doing so.
P.S. remember that the hard part is getting all the paperwork togather, but it doesn't matter if you pay someone, do it yourself, or enter it into a computer, you need all that paperwork first. Forget about one 1099 form and your taxes will be wrong no matter who does them.
1. Intuit was already losing quite literally more than a few hundred thousand dollars from previous TurboTax releases. Since very, very minor security had been put in place to ensure software protection, it was passed around like candy. The statistcs proved that for every copy we gave out, it was the same copy that at least 15 other people had already used. 15 being the smallest number I can think of from that statistic report. The software was pirated beyond belief and Intuit wanted to implement a security policy NOW.
So ratatuit had a popular program, that had a market share 15 times greater than their paying base...use it the first year, use it a second year, start to rely on it...ms has a greater than 92 percent market share thanks to this strategy of casual copying.
2. Intuit needed a security policy, obviously, so they told the coders to think of something and fast. So they did. No one ever expected for the process to be so incredibly cumbersome or restricting. Administration loved it though, (mostly tax advisors than computer savvy) and it was put on the market with the security features implmented. The point remains, that even if this security feature is downright disgusting, something had to be done.
Ratatuit has a winning marketing strategy of increasing customer use over the long term, spread of their software in the amount that other companies can only dream of, and they buried themselves. And took the customers with them.
They needed something, and fast? So they did it, and fast? Without testing and market research? Tough shit. When tenants steal fire extinguishers, you don't remove the fire extinguishers, or lock them to the walls. When club patrons sneak friends through unlocked fire exits, you don't lock the fire exits.
Ratatuit locked the fire exits. And then lit a match. Then they realized they couldn't unlock the fire exits fast enough. So they're sorry their customers were burned. And now they expect everyone to forgive them and come back to their club.
Burn me once...
3. After Intuit found out how horribly wrong the activation was, it was a little bit too late. A lot was done to compensate the customers calling in, free states, free this, no questions asked refunds, etc. Internally, Intuit was working it's ass off to reconcile for the unruley security measure it had taken. The point remains, that even though few people saw it externally, internally (especially for people calling into Intuit) we were working our asses off to apologize and make up for it.
As an employee of the company, you are also an agent of the company. That means you represent the company. You were working your asses off to apologize and make up for it? How, by accusing your customers of being pirates?
You bet your fucking ass you'd be apologizing and working your ass off to make up for fucking with someone's taxes, you little snot.
4. Too much damage, too late, on both our side and the customer's side. The reason Intuit began to stop offering refunds and free states so quickly to rectify the situation is because we had a constant flow of customers that would not listen, but would have their lawyer on the other line. We were fully aware that the TOS was wrong, the boot sector usage was wrong, but the coders always convienced the administration that it was vital to the lifestream of the company, despite what the actual workers on the floor would say.
You fuck with someone's taxes, and you don't expect lawyers to be listening in to find out how you are making up for it?
How stupid are you?
So a certain percentage (2%? 4%? 6%?) of customers actually went to the trouble of hiring a lawyer, and setting up a three way call for additional evidence for a suit. For fucking with someone's taxes. And by your own admission, the tos was wrong, and the boot sector scheme was wrong.
Maybe when you grow up you'll realize that when you fuck with people's taxe
So ratatuit had a popular program, that had a market share 15 times greater than their paying base...use it the first year, use it a second year, start to rely on it...ms has a greater than 92 percent market share thanks to this strategy of casual copying.
Go right ahead and tell that to every other company using a security policy to protect their software. Don't be a moron, MS isn't the only company out there.
ratatuit has a winning marketing strategy of increasing customer use over the long term, spread of their software in the amount that other companies can only dream of, and they buried themselves. And took the customers with them.
No, the customers buried intuit. We were never even given a chance to fix the error because of the immaturity and rudeness to the entire userbase. Don't talk about things you never even research about.
Tough shit. When tenants steal fire extinguishers, you don't remove the fire extinguishers, or lock them to the walls. When club patrons sneak friends through unlocked fire exits, you don't lock the fire exits.
Weird, I could have sworn I still see a huge glass that demands people to open it with a hammer. Or better yet, leave your office once in a while and take a look at aparment complexes, all of the fire extiguishers are guarded by a lock and key. Horrible example, and another use of saying something you have not researched, but assumes.
Ratatuit locked the fire exits. And then lit a match. Then they realized they couldn't unlock the fire exits fast enough. So they're sorry their customers were burned. And now they expect everyone to forgive them and come back to their club.
And? Are you saying apologies are wrong? A company can't fuck up? I'm not agreeing with their methods, this entire post was to show an alternate light in terms of what was going on internally. That it wasn't about screwing the customer over.
As an employee of the company, you are also an agent of the company. That means you represent the company. You were working your asses off to apologize and make up for it? How, by accusing your customers of being pirates?
You bet your fucking ass you'd be apologizing and working your ass off to make up for fucking with someone's taxes, you little snot.
Little snot? Surley you could raise your matuity level just a bit for this conversation. People like you ruined intuit because you wouldn't shut your damn mouths long enough to listen. WAH WAH WAH me me me, I won't accept any mistakes. Grow up. Someone does something wrong, they apologize, its called human decency.
You fuck with people's taxes, and you don't expect to get screamed at?
How many threats resulted in actual prosecutions or pleas out of the totality of calls? 1%? 1/2%? 1/4%? Or is it more like 1/256% or smaller?
What counts is not what you perceive as a threat. What counts is what a DA perceives as a threat. Because until it gets to the DA, and to trial or plea, it's not a conviction. And in this country, unlike many other countries, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Don't like screams or what you perceive as threats? Maybe you shouldn't be in the tax business. Or maybe you should have consulted former tax workers to find out how hot the kitchen gets.
No, I refuse to accept that manners and common curtiosy go down the drain depending on job field. That is plain arrogance and stupidity. We offered kindness in our apology months ago, they could have shown respect back.
You fuck with people's taxes, you can fully expect lawyers coming out of your ears. Not expecting the lawyers is so unbelievably stupid, or unbelievably naive that it defies logic.
Have you even tried to think today, or does it hurt? People were not having problems with their taxes, Turbo Tax was not screwing up taxes. People were upset because of the privacy features. For the love of God, if you are going to post, do som
What does a security policy have to do with fucking with someone's taxes? It made the software harder to install; it didn't change the numbers on the screen.
Stop commenting until you can control your urge to sling childish names. Save it for your lunch period.
Is Steve Bennett still Intuit's President and CEO? The same Steve Bennett who said, "Now, for a small but very vocal group of people, product activation is a crusade. But for the vast majority of our customers, it's a non-issue. And for Intuit it's a big opportunity," and then continued, "One of the things I think is important here for all investors to understand is that despite all the nervousness they hopefully see what we see, that it's not having much if any impact on our business. There's a lot of people out there that have agendas that are different than just pure consumer agendas. I think one of these things that we're looking at hard is who are some of these people that are saying these things about product activation and it's not all just straight consumer feedback, so there are some good consumer feedback and there are some other people who have other agendas on these boards. So I think it's important that for investors to see through some of this and what's really going on."
I'd throw that heavily in the "Intuit really doesn't care what customers think about this issue" camp. It was a smug, unrepenatant, and ignorant stance for the company to take. It took nearly a year for them to finally eat Bennett's words and apologize. And they don't even have the decency to send me a letter doing it, either, supposedly out of fear that I might not open it.
For this matter, I'll take Intuit's president's word over yours: "Last year, we got paid for only about a third of the... federal returns prepared and filed on TurboTax desktop products." Three is much smaller than fifteen, and much more beleivable.
(All quotes from this article)
I'm going off of the statistics I was given as a supervisor, as well as the opinions from the people calling in. You have me on the 15 versus 3, but we had far too many people call in last year why they couldn't use it with their entire family, then pass it onto their friends, and then their friends family.... makes you wonder after about the 100th report to your supervisor about it.
Steven is still President but he is going to give you his opinion in the companies "Best interest".
In opinion the guy is a fag, and still will not disclose the chat sessions and phone calls of the actual responces of the public.
There is a lot of left hand not knowing or ignoring what the right hand is doing in Intuit. What he will tell the public is going to be very different from what he will tell everyone else internally.
Thus I left. What horrible, horrible buisness ethics Intuit has.
Sadly I've had nothing but trouble with dealing with Intuit. I use their Quicken software and a couple of years ago found a bug that was double-counting the items in my budgets (ouch!). I checked their (UK) site, no contact email for support. Just a premium rate telephone number for support and a free number for sales.
Thinking it was ludicrous to pay them money to report a bug in their own software I called the sales number and asked them very nicely if they would pass on the details or put me through to someone who could deal with it. Oh no. Did not compute. I had to call the support number if I was having trouble. Sorry, but I don't pay companies to report bugs in their software.
I didn't just flip a bit, it put the DRM software in sector 33 of the boot record. If you tried to uninstall the DRM software that was also installed as normal software it reinstalled itself the next time you boot. Some dual booters reported that installing turbotax broke dual booting, presumably whatever bootloader they used for dual booting stored info in sector 33. I used a sector editor to examine sec 33 before and after. Virtually the entire sector was used.
For some states that is becomming a requirement.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Try a UNIX utility like "strings" on your TT tax return and you'll see info you wish others couldnt see like your SS number. This means that any spy-ware could peruse your TT files on disk and steal your identity. Spy-ware is increasingly sneaking onto my disk through IE holes and spoof ads.
We used TurboTax for over ten years. We bought the package last year, but when we discovered the DRM crap, we decided not to use it. We bought a copy of Taxcut and used that, instead. Since it's too much hassle, we did not bother to try to get a refund from TurboTax. We will of course not buy TurboTax this year.
I suspect a LOT of people bought it and then either did not use it, or decided to use it for the last time.
Note that tax programs have an annual revenue curve. Some people buy early, and others buy later. I'd guess that September-October is the earliest reliable leading indicator for sales. I'd guess that somebody at TurboTax took a look at the September revenues and said "oh shit!" That's why they are issuing an apology now. This is the first time that their mistake has been glaringly, unambiguously apparent, and they are desperate.
The only way they will get us back as customers is to send us a free version of this year's TurboTax, together with an apology and a promise that there is no DRM and no malware.
That's a lie, as the DMCA allows and the RIAA has proved. In order to get activation code back over the internet you have just given them, at minimum: your serial number, any registration information you filled in on the registration form, and the time of your transaction. You are just a court clerk away from a subpoena to reveal all the information your ISP has on you.
Dear Court Clerk:
As copyright holders of Intuit products and Turbo-Tax in particular, please sign this subpoena under the provisions of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to require [fill in ISP] to turn over all information regarding the user of [fill in IP address] at [fill in time] whom we believe may have somehow violated our copyright.
Oh, and you think your 800 number call is anonymous? The person paying the bills (i.e. Intuit) gets a log of every number that called their 800 line. Blocking Caller ID doesn't stop this. How often do you register software from the payphone down the road?
It's the very same thing for Microsoft Windows Update. We don't send any personally identifiable information: Except the serial number of your Windows (easily matched to information you provided when you registered the product) and the serial numbers of other products you have installed (easily checked to see if their original registration matches your current one), along with the time and your IP address. Yes there are steps you can take to avoid this, but get real! 99%+ of the population isn't prepared to do so.
The only reason you have any privacy here is because Intuit hasn't bothered to look yet. And that can change tomorrow.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
While I like what you had to say, and you seemed to be speaking from an informed position, the result comes out sounding like a Dilbert strip. The coders did it!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
No, the customers buried intuit. We were never even given a chance to fix the error because of the immaturity and rudeness to the entire userbase. Don't talk about things you never even research about.
No, ratatuit buried themselves. By releasing software that was defective. They should have tested first. They didn't. They should have tested again. They didn't. They should not have released faulty software. But they did. They had to. Or the stock price would go down. Way down in a down market. They don't get the opportunity to make up for it in the next quarter like other companies. Taxes are a once a year opportunity for them to make the majority of their money, unlike other corporations not in the tax business.
They rolled the dice for their customers, AND themselves, and it came up craps.
Weird, I could have sworn I still see a huge glass that demands people to open it with a hammer.
Except in this case, a special hammer was needed, and ratatuit didn't hand out any of the hammers you moron.
Or better yet, leave your office once in a while and take a look at aparment complexes, all of the fire extiguishers are guarded by a lock and key. Horrible example, and another use of saying something you have not researched, but assumes.
Ahhh, the pot calls the kettle...fire extinguishers either have a glass that can be broken, or if the fire extinguishers or fire hoses are not truly accessible to the tenants in large buildings, then there is an assigned and trained fire "marshall" on every floor. With access to the keys. And access to 2 way radios. And access to a communication device or person to alert the fire department. And keys to the elevators.
So it is you who is assuming, you little snot. Or you are just applying the non-existent fire codes in the sticks in your desolate home town.
And? Are you saying apologies are wrong?
When taken into context with its timing? You bet. It stinks. The original actions, and this blatent attempt not at a true apology, but at a marketing decision based on the impending new tax season. This is a marketing apology. Nothing more.
A company can't fuck up?
They can because they did. Whether they should or not is a different story. If your company was in the business of selling software that traces family trees, and isn't part of a make or break deadline, they can fuck up. As long as it wasn't malicious. And they have time to fix it. And issue all the apologies in the world.
But that is not the situation here. Your company is in the business of selling software that creates legal documentation, and obligations of taxpayers. And taxpayers rely on that software to be able to file their taxes, print their tax returns for their own records, and access whatever data and figures they input into the software. Taxes that have firm, fixed deadlines. Deadlines which if missed, can cost thousands of dollars. Or tens of thousands of dollars. Or more. And not just dollars. But that have criminal implications as well.
One of the facts that is clear, and by your own admission as well, is that faulty software was released. The duty to test that software to make sure it works was not met. Your company failed to test. And test again. And test again. They put the software out the door, and gave their stock price support. Had your company properly tested and retested, and not released prior to getting it right, they wouldn't have fucked up as badly as they did. It's that simple. They fucked up, and they could have prevented it by proper testing, but they chose not to.
I'm not agreeing with their methods, this entire post was to show an alternate light in terms of what was going on internally. That it wasn't about screwing the customer over.
Maybe internally in your location as the floor boy for customer service. But do floor boys routinely sit in on board of
Quickbooks, no free Y2K fix.
Turbotax 2002, spyware.
Taxcut corporate couldn't import Turbotax corporate
from 2001 only advertisements featuring both products failed to mention that only one could import.
My fucking accountant/attorney was disbarred for 'comingling' funds.
So, I just quit. Fuckit. I don't need a big house/pool/SUV/airplane. I dropped out in the 60's and I'm dropping out again. Fucking internet is half dead and dying. They've made it so difficult for the little guy to keep his obscure interest site going that they are disappearing like flies when the shit's dried in the sun.
If you see me fishing and looking thirsty, offer me a beer...I'll give you some fish...
Stop a second to think. Just a second...
When you can't see the numbers on the screen because you can't run the software, don't you see a problem?
Have you seen how many people do their taxes just prior to the deadline? Some have no excuse, some do...
What does throwing all your data into a safe, then breaking the dial on the safe off...if the security policyis going to break the dial off of my safe when I finally sit down to do my taxes, and do this without telling me exactly what its going to do, especially when I was able to open my safe easily every year prior...
Does someone have to slap you in the face for you to understand the problem here?
What about writing to the boot sector, wiping out my dual boot linux/windows install, with the invoice info sitting on the linux partition, the partition that windows intentionally doesn't see? Is Intuit enforcing mandatory linux rescue training because they decided to corrupt my boot sector? Is this part of the time pressure accounting that so many people go throw to make deadlines and still try to run their busy lives or small businesses?
Are you even aware how many hours most small business families work?
There's another side of this coin. I used TurboTax in years past and was happy with it. I recommended it to my mother, sister, mother-in-law, and other friends. I didn't give them a copy to use, I told them to buy a copy, and that the time saved, and possibly new-found deductions would be well worth the relatively low cost. Then last year, after the activation experience, and finding out that I had to wait for a rebate for the State program, and finding that some of the helpful tax advice formerly included with the program was replaced with advertising for third party services... I told everyone I knew who was considering tax software NOT to get TurboTax. They lost not one customer, but several.
I moved from TurboTax to TaxCut last when all this B.S. broke out. I have to use my wife's computer since they don't make a standards-compliant version. Anyway, I thought it was a perfectly good program and I was quite satisfied with it. I will be buying it again for tax year 2003.
Their DRM decision didn't happen in a vacuum. How many software pirates have apologized for stealing their software?
Guys I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, but CPA's do not know that much more about taxes than you do.
I used to do tech support for Lacerte, it's a subsidiary of Intuit now, but it makes software that professional tax preparer's use to prepare their client's(that would be you) returns. My scope of support was to help them enter the data in the program in the right fields to produce a proper return to their liking. A lot of these idiot's called because they needed help understanding tax concepts. Concepts like depreciation, like-kind exchanges, passive activity losses, at-risk limitations, AMT and my favorite... capital gains. Why is Lacerte doing it this way? they would ask, then you have to sit there and explain tax law to them. They who are supposedly CPA's, who supposedly have gone to college, who have supposedly mentored under other accountants to gain their CPA title and yet they need my help in understanding tax law. I who did not graduate from college, who did not major in accounting, who studied tax law for only 6 weeks as part of my training, they needed my help. In case you can't tell, I'm still a little bitter that they got paid more than I did to help them prepare returns.
It was definitely an eye opener. You had to constantly fight to get them off of the phone or they would try to make you do the return for them because they didn't know where on the return you are supposed to report income, deductions, etc.. I feel sorry for whoever happened to be their clients. The best thing about it though is that I do not need and never will need a CPA or tax preparer anymore. I will be doing my own taxes from now on thanks to my experience with Lacerte. Also because of my experience, I don't trust any CPA to do my taxes correctly. It also makes me wonder about other professions, I wonder if they need as much help in performing their dutes as the accountants I spoke with do. It makes me very scared.
Tax law is not that difficult to understand, you just have to concentrate and follow the instructions very carefully; I would rank my learning curve of tax law as on par with my learning curve of Linux. Did that sentence make any sense? Well you get the idea.
Even so, if they were to personally telephone to say how sorry they are, I'd tell them to kiss my ass. I'll do my taxes with paper and pencil before I'll trust any of their software again.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
I'll burn some karma myself; This post is being done from my brand spankin' new RH9 box. A real bitch for a Wintechie to install a DLINK WLAN driver, considering there are a few projects out there, but none worked as documented. Of course, I learned a few things, so it isn't all bad.
I'm a big believer in CPA's. I once went down to the post office at 9 PM on April 15. There were free accountants volunteering there to help people like me. To make a long story short, my taxes got done that year for free, and they even re-filed for me things that I had filed sub-optimally in two preceding years. Instead of my calculations that had me paying a few hundred dollars, I left with refunds totalling over $1000.
Every year I pay maybye $75 for a professional to file my simple return. It takes her maybe 20 minutes, whereas I would waste most of a weekend day, and still not be confident in taking some deductions to which I am entitled.
Since we are on the topic of Intuit, the biggest rip off of all is the "payroll service" fee. I use Quickbooks, and have for years. Years ago they started a subscription service for their payroll tax charts. If you discontinued your subscription, you at least got to continue using the outdated tax tables. Payroll taxes do not change much so I did not want to continue to subscribe. Later, Intuit changed this so that if you did not subscribe, the tax table would time out to "protect" me from using the wrong table. Worse, you could not edit the table yourself. So I was forced to subscribe, a fee over a hundred dollars a year for a simple tax rate table. This year Intuit notified me that they would no longer support the tax table in Quickbooks 2000, and I am now forced now to update Quickbooks 2000 to the new version, or by April 2004 the tax table will be disabled. So, they now nick me for a yearly table, and then for upgrades to Quickbooks I do not want or need. I have only one employee.
So I hunted around and found www.zpay.com, a company that puts out a payroll package and the tax rate tables are thrown in with the sofware for $69.95. The tables are also editable, so I can change the tax tables myself if I want. So, at the end of the year I will buy Zpay for $69.95, and never pay the Intuit payroll subscription again, and just keep QB 2000 going without the payroll service and without upgrading. So I am not surprised at the furor here over Intuit, they are greedy in all their product lines, not just Turbo Tax.
[goes googling]
= 58 2&post_start=15
http://board.protecus.de/showtopic.php?threadid
I can't make out the German, but it looks like someone posted a regkey to tinker with.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
dude, intuit dropped the cdilla version. You can get a free clean clear non drm'ed version of the program by calling and asking. I even think they pay to send it to you.
Not only that, but despite it being called cdilla, it's not the same cdilla as the infamous cdilla. it's a whole new different version.
It's still drm and still isn't loved, but it isn't the spyware version.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
They've lost my business with that whole copy-protection thing.
:)
I'm never going to pirate Turbotax again.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
you should try shopping at fry's electronics. Then you get to spend hours finding a box that doesn't have the previously returned sticker on it, wait hours in line to purchase, wait a few more hours while they personally call your bank to verify funds from your check, wait some more to have the door nazis look at all your stuff, spend another hour driving home, then discover the box did not contain what you thought it would, then spend time driving all the way back. Then wait some more in the line to return. Spend time arguing that you did not switch the item. Wait some more, to speak to the PIC (person in charge), yell some more. Then finally get a refund coupon, then wait in line again to redeem your refund. Look here
A while back I was looking for a wireless microphone, because I was going to MC a friend's wedding. I was disgusted when I saw a bunch of boxes at fry's with a sticker saying, "microphone missing", yet the price was not marked down very much. What?! Charging you practically full price for an empty box?
Hopefully, the company will also reconsider some of its other policies. Yes, their software does attempt to foist an installation of Internet Exploder on users, even though many of them have wisely disabled or removed it to avoid security problems. This is inappropriate and should be stopped.
Also, the company should reconsider its policy of demanding high fees to "update the tax tables" in QuickBooks.
Clearly, the tax tables aren't the real issue here. Intuit wants to collect the equivalent of "rent" on its software, which is absurd. (The double entry bookkeeping system hasn't changed in a couple of hundred years now, so there simply shouldn't be a need to buy accounting software for a business more than once.) Let the company charge more if it must; it should, however, not attempt to cripple businesses' accounting systems if they refuse to pay yearly ransom. None of the several businesses I've started have ever used QuickBooks because of this misfeature, and none will ever do so until they stop.
Of course, my choice alone won't persuade the company to play fair. But if enough people go elsewhere, perhaps it will listen.
I know it's not spyware, although it's not true to say it's a whole new version.
I have C-Dilla installed and musk keep it, how do I know some OTHER piece of software hasn't enabled the spyware components, I cannot tell them apart so I am defenceless against this form of privacy invasion thanks to Intuit. I run two types of privacy protection software, but they are ineffective against C-Dilla as long as I need it for TurboTAX.
Thanks for the info w.r.t. a non DRM version.
I submitted this story months ago, the day I got the letter of apology..
Took a while to get picked up...
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
Legally when one commits a crime, one assumes risks and liabilities. Unless you can show that Ricky Coleman deliberately killed Douglas Fischer, he cannot be charged with murder.
You can sue BestBuy.Com for hiring a nutjob like Ricky Coleman. I remember in the 1980s, a barowner in town without a brain, decided to hire some thugs for security. The thugs attacked people just for shits and kicks -- What great security. The victims successfully sued the thugs and barowner.
You could try a wrongful deathsuit against BestBuy.Com and Ricky Coleman; but since however, Douglas Fischer died commiting a crime you would have to prove that Ricky Coleman deliberately killed Douglas Fischer. If Ricky Coleman would have killed an innocent person, you could have won a wrongful deathsuit just for Ricky coleman killing an innocent person. The difference goes back to people taking risks and liabilities in the commission of a crime.
I would see a lawyer before pursuing any action.
Impeach Bush
+5 Informative
Not exactly the same thing, but here it goes:
This company must have a policy of taking stuff from the return dept sealing the box without checking the contents and putting it back on the floor for sale.
I couln't tell you how many times I've bought something there that looked legit kitchen/bathroom faucets, power tools, lighting fixtures, etc only to bring them home to find that parts were missing.
Then I bring them back, pointing out that parts are missing, and get shit from the return clerk and management. "we sold it to you with the parts, why are you stealing from us?". Eventually I'd get my return after becoming very loud and agitated, and pointing out that I KNOW that they restock incomplete kits.
I've run into this in multiple stores in the NY/NJ area. I used to think it was just my bad luck until I had a conversation with a local building contractor who found the same problems.
Since there's really no place else in my area to get home supplies, I'm forced to go back to Home Depot. So I've started to open and inspect packages before I buy them. The last time I was there, security hassled me becasue I looked like I was stealing parts out of a lighting kit.
I can't wait for a Lowe's to open nearby....
wbs.
Huh?
and while you're at it, mod the parent down
-1 Incomplete information
"showing his colors".
Is your life not already complicated enough by the numerous tiny, shiny digital things to keep track of that you need to have one more for every piece of software you own? I like tiny, shiny digital things, too, but man, you're hard-core.
OK, but where is my uninfected copy of turbotax 2002? (I bought it an ran it in a vmware session to prevent the spread of disease. I would like to have it "for real" wihtout the crap. "or else")
That would satisfy me.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
No, if they were *REALLY* listening they would pony up and fix their mistake.
I bought TurboTax 02 and ran it in a vmware partiton to prevent the infection from spreading.
So far all the remedies Intuit has offered is a way to uninstall the mal-ware when you uninstall the product. They have done nothing to provide me with an unencumbered and fully working replacement for the crapware they originally released.
If they were serious about keeping my business they would send me a CD that contained the program in 100% workable, 100% mal-ware-freee format so that it was safe for me to use next year to consult on my old records.
That or release a patch that make the program "uncrippled" (etc) using the CD I already have.
When I see *THAT* effort, I will be satisfied.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
You know nothing about the united states legal system and your lack of a sense of propriety amazes me. Your attitude reminds me of the Spartanburg county coroner who stated:
"He would not have had the incident happen if he hadn't been conducting illegal activity inside the store," Burnett said, "It's almost like to me if a man is drunk and runs into a tree and tries to blame the person who planted the tree for causing his injuries." [Spartanburg Herald Journal, July 28, 1995]
If you want to see some of what that great civil servant said, head over to here.
Oh and by the way, in this legal system people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Mr. Fischer never was proven guilty because he was strangled to death outside the Best Buy by its employees before he could have a trial or even be arrested.
suddenly I feel very tired
Name one.
Hint: Not everyone can afford a computer. No state will ever make electronic filing mandatory, for that exact reason. It would be seen as "anti-poor."
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
How did they calculate the fair market value of a customer? Shouldn't this be something like "customers responsible for $50-90 million in revenue"?
In the meantime, concentrate on paying your sharecroppers a living wage, instead of finding new ways of skinning the cat with your creative accounting practices and congressional lobbying and contributions.
we teenage terrorists are too busy uploading military secrets with kazaa and slinking through neighborhoods with our skeleton keys stealing from neighborhood homes...