Ok, it seems to me that you are mixing two metaphors. In the first place, on the topic of an mechanic expecting you to have knowledge about your car, I expect your mechanic would like you to check your own fluid levels once in a while, so that when things aren't right, you can take the car back to him to be serviced. Just like I expect my users to ask me when there is something out of the ordinary.
For the second part, you start talking about a kindly older man in your apartment building with money to burn, then you digress into locking down computers. I don't ask my users to learn how to use gpedit, or how to reconfigure firewalls, or how to setup Exchange, but I do ask them that if they're going to visit random sites on their own, that they at least learn how to be safe at it.
As far as people not being able to understand the tools, every one of my users and my family that I've started using Firefox and NoScript have fully understood how to use it after about 10 minutes instruction and practice. I may get the occasional phone call from one of them asking why the page doesn't show something that they expect to see, but all in all, they are able to use the tools just fine...
So was this post just a troll?
And why would you say that IE is bad, it's just unsecurable is all...
well so long as the video window is shown (think the difference between ytimg blocked or not on noscript) then usually just clicking the placeholder shows the video after a confirmation dialog. But that placeholder is not always shown.
Otherwise it's usually that they forget noscript is there, because they assume that since I showed them firefox with noscript that they must use it. That's not my point, my point is heightened awareness of what is happening. Like the new proof-of-concept with javascript finding the addresses of other tabs and doing a dialog popup to prompt for login credentials.
I think it's just a matter of education. People don't just get behind the wheel of a car and go cruising off, and they don't just pick up power saws and just buzz away. There's always a period of instruction. Now, am I proposing that we license computer users before usage? Of course not, but I am saying that they have to learn what's happening.
I get tickled when they come back and say that their kids were using firefox before them, and that now the kids are like "welcome to the 21st century"...
well, I've long been a proponent of MS picking up an APT like system, but they're on the way to that with Windows Update and the way that the error reporting system works. I mean, it's only a so so deal right now, because they can't be responsible for 3rd party dev, and we here at/. on the forums get that they wouldn't be, but most consumers think it's Microsoft's problem when their router is misconfigured. Go figure.
Actually... I haven't done much customization at all to my Debian server as far as downloading GUI apps, so it gets used occasionally... At least it's a somewhat valid assessment that that box does not run any of the top five browsers... Now, do I use it daytoday? No, I'm using FX3 from Vista atm...
Ok, so I've been replacing windows shells on and off since 98 or 99 with the likes of Litestep, so I'm on your side. As a matter of fact, I have fond memories of my brother thinking I was like the world's most penultimate hacker because I had this different windows on my computer, and how cool was I. Then when he learned what LS was, he wanted me to set his computer up like that, but I told him he would have to learn the RC file stuff, and he quickly grew tired of that.
So here's the question I have that ties into this, that most folks can't or won't answer. It's great to have a new window manager, but what about the graphical rendering engine? That's usually done by Windows still, and what about replacing the GUI engine on Windows. Now, I realize that X has been around forever, and that no-one seriously rewrites X, except for that whole fork a while back, but is there even an OPTION to replace GUI32 on a Windows system?
That's what I'm waiting for. I was really hoping for minWin to be a true core kernel, but I guess that won't happen. Ah well...
Wouldn't it be nice to emulate ActiveX controls on Linux embedded ARM installations? I mean, who would have thought that the embedded groups were doing it wrong all this time and all they had to do was use Firefox code to do.ocx emulation on the hardware.
This is why I agree that/. should enforce comment posters to be logged in (no, I don't really think that, I occasionally post AC, like once every six months or so)... so that we can ridicule them in public, hahahaha
Um, except for education. I don't mean places with web addresses ending in.edu or.stateabbreviation.us, but rather education in the verb form. I recently (about 3 months ago) did a training session at the office and attempted to explain web security to people. But as a matter of web security, I was trying to explain how javascript can be harmful. To demonstrate this, I showed three separate instances:
Internet Explorer on the default settings, Firefox on the default settings, Firefox with NoScript installed.
Now, I freely admit that I didn't show how to go into IE and reduce all the permitted scripting options, because those aren't tunable by one webpage at a time. I have not heard of a NoScript equivalent on IE. Now, I'll continue my point.
As I was demonstrating how JS worked and how it could be harmful, a lot of people were curious what this Firefox thing was, so the session went two ways, with people understanding that there are more browsers in the world than just IE, and to people understanding that their browsers do a helluva lot more than just show pretty pictures.
Now, I have two women in the office who have adopted Firefox just because I showed it to them, and so they figure that was my end goal (no, it wasn't) and I've told them frequently "I don't WANT you to use Firefox over Internet Explorer, I just want you to be SAFE on the internet. I don't care WHICH browser you use, it's your choice." To this they usually respond that they like the add-ons and then they try and ask me why ActiveX won't work in Firefox (I've tried explaining that one over and over and we devolve back to the "internet works in that other thingy" conversation). And I've got one user who won't use Firefox and doesn't trust it at all. And the boss man is still stuck in IE6 world, so even though he likes the concept, he's not changing. Then again, he considers it a challenge to visit websites and to turn on scripting when he needs it, and off again when he doesn't. And I've a whole 'nother user who uses IETab and Fire.FM, but he knew about Firefox before I showed it to the office.
Now, for the caveats, I am THE guy for IT at the office, and we're a small group, about a dozen people. But, the most security related problem I've had in the past three months (as opposed to the dozen or so virii I've removed in the past year alone from the same people's computers) is whether you can make a site secure by going to the address bar and changing the protocol from http to https.
The sites I've found that are best to demonstrate that that doesn't work are http://search.yahoo.com/ and whatever banking site most people use (https://bankofamerica.com through https://wellsfargo.com./ YMMV.
Has anyone else been answering that same email question from friends family and coworkers? It's even to the point that my parents got that same email in their inbox, about a week after the folks at my office. Yai yai yai.
Well, here's what I can't figure out. If Microsoft is supposed to not supply a browser, how does one get one on their computer? And at this point everyone is used to browsers being free and integral, so telling people they MUST buy one because the governing body is trying to encourage innovation and detour monopolistic practices is going to go over like a wet brick.
So I don't particularly see how Microsoft could get away from installing SOME browser on the computers, which is what the problem is in the first place. If they distributed opera instead of IE, someone else would complain about the fact that Opera was the only choice. And since Microsoft distributes Opera now on their computers, then when Opera has a problem, that must be a Microsoft problem. Etc Etc Etc Ad Nauseum.
So are you trolling or do you honestly believe all that crap?
I can counter most of what you gave as examples to show that your entire argument is flawed, so I figure you knew that too already. For instance, let's just start with you're last ding at Windows, the registry. Without the registry, Microsoft would be doing exactly what Gnome is doing with it's gconf to accomplish the same ends. But instead of having a separate file for each app, the Microsoft devs made the system use a central database with similar APIs. So you're going to complain that Microsoft is doing what the Open Source movement is as well?
But anyways, I'm not preparing to fight with a dull witted opponent, so show me that you believe your given premises to be inherently false or allow me to show you factually why you are wrong...
Well said, I wish I could just get half the people in my life to read this thread, and that I could point out your post and one or two others. I am so happy to have the community and brotherhood (non-gender-specific of course, just a word;] ) that discussions like this reinforce.
Not trying to yell, just showing emphatic agreement.
And my wife is the same way, so you're not alone there either (no surprise huh).
So do you see a doc, do you take meds, or do you just do work on it yourself? My md says my ins co won't allow him to do referrals, but they say I just need to find my own doc. So I'm totally confused but I know that I need to talk to someone... Not only do I have ADD/ADHD (diagnosed in the 1980s) but I haven't had any treatment or whatever since the mid90s and I come from a background of bipolar family members, and I've started hitting a lot of depressive spells.
To me, all the more reason to find a doc, so just feeling overwhelmed, ya know?
Sounds like a good thesis for a bio major at the expense of NASA or DHS or somebody's grant expense. Hmmm, I'll have to fish that out to a few bio buddies of mine. What's the best way to grow plants indoors with LEDs without the possibility of sunlight, broken down by regional plant growth.
OMG, where are mod points when you need them, that was the best thing I've heard all day... Shame I've been "putting out fires" and dealing with an Exchange recovery today, instead of getting real work done. Oh well, maybe I can get work done tomorrow and not stare at a black and white "terminal"...
*Yes, for the anally retentive, I do know about RSGs in Exchange and how to use them, still doesn't subtract from how much I hate users...
Does this count? ---- void main(){return 0;} ---- it's 22 characters long, and has a distinct and useful purpose. By changing the return value, one can test a script or other program which relies on return values to branch. For instance, if you need to monitor a program for a return value of 18, but don't have time to wait for the actual program to return 18 to validate your code, you could use this program with the slight modification to test your script. Voila, a useful program that does something that took no time to come up with.
Ok, what? Or perhaps I should phrase it thusly: omgwtf, r u sirius?
A) Why have an opinion if you're not going to admit that it's your opinion? I've never been afraid to say I was wrong on something, and it's an opinion, not a fact. We're all free to change our minds every once in a while.
B) What does my having posted under my account say to you? (Why am I even replying to an AC? Nobody'll come back to this post later to see if I responded I'm sure...) To me it means karma to burn, so what does it matter if I got flamed on a response? Not that I've had a bad response yet from more than one or two people posting under their accounts. You'll notice I've been lurking on/. for a while...
C) What does skin have to do with ANY of this? Or is that why you are afraid to post under YOUR own name?
No, what we need is over 1000 trained ninjas attacking in concert in the middle of the night to attack the members of the electoral college as well as all the members of Congress in DC, so that we can start fresh with this whole democracy thing. Funny how we're supposed to be fighting regimes that block citizens of other countries from having a democracy but we don't have anything more than a sham here...
Two parties? Are you serious? Aren't we just about the only two-party democracy in the western world? I have co-workers that didn't know there were other candidates for president besides McCain and Obama...
erm, don't you still only have one RAID controller per system? Don't I/O requests still bottleneck at the DMA interface if they're faster ($DEITY forbid that happening) because there is only one bus? So how does your RAI[R|M] facilitate this system? You've still got to coordinate all that memory. Unless....
What if each RAM chip is assigned a write bit to one DMA style controller, but multiple or various other controllers have READ ONLY access to the RAM? I don't know if this is even feasible, but it's a thought...
Slashdot Mirror
Ok, it seems to me that you are mixing two metaphors. In the first place, on the topic of an mechanic expecting you to have knowledge about your car, I expect your mechanic would like you to check your own fluid levels once in a while, so that when things aren't right, you can take the car back to him to be serviced. Just like I expect my users to ask me when there is something out of the ordinary.
For the second part, you start talking about a kindly older man in your apartment building with money to burn, then you digress into locking down computers. I don't ask my users to learn how to use gpedit, or how to reconfigure firewalls, or how to setup Exchange, but I do ask them that if they're going to visit random sites on their own, that they at least learn how to be safe at it.
As far as people not being able to understand the tools, every one of my users and my family that I've started using Firefox and NoScript have fully understood how to use it after about 10 minutes instruction and practice. I may get the occasional phone call from one of them asking why the page doesn't show something that they expect to see, but all in all, they are able to use the tools just fine...
So was this post just a troll?
And why would you say that IE is bad, it's just unsecurable is all...
well so long as the video window is shown (think the difference between ytimg blocked or not on noscript) then usually just clicking the placeholder shows the video after a confirmation dialog. But that placeholder is not always shown.
Otherwise it's usually that they forget noscript is there, because they assume that since I showed them firefox with noscript that they must use it. That's not my point, my point is heightened awareness of what is happening. Like the new proof-of-concept with javascript finding the addresses of other tabs and doing a dialog popup to prompt for login credentials.
I think it's just a matter of education. People don't just get behind the wheel of a car and go cruising off, and they don't just pick up power saws and just buzz away. There's always a period of instruction. Now, am I proposing that we license computer users before usage? Of course not, but I am saying that they have to learn what's happening.
I get tickled when they come back and say that their kids were using firefox before them, and that now the kids are like "welcome to the 21st century"...
Not if Opera has their say, browsers are not...
well, I've long been a proponent of MS picking up an APT like system, but they're on the way to that with Windows Update and the way that the error reporting system works. I mean, it's only a so so deal right now, because they can't be responsible for 3rd party dev, and we here at /. on the forums get that they wouldn't be, but most consumers think it's Microsoft's problem when their router is misconfigured. Go figure.
Actually... I haven't done much customization at all to my Debian server as far as downloading GUI apps, so it gets used occasionally... At least it's a somewhat valid assessment that that box does not run any of the top five browsers... Now, do I use it daytoday? No, I'm using FX3 from Vista atm...
Ok, so I've been replacing windows shells on and off since 98 or 99 with the likes of Litestep, so I'm on your side. As a matter of fact, I have fond memories of my brother thinking I was like the world's most penultimate hacker because I had this different windows on my computer, and how cool was I. Then when he learned what LS was, he wanted me to set his computer up like that, but I told him he would have to learn the RC file stuff, and he quickly grew tired of that.
So here's the question I have that ties into this, that most folks can't or won't answer. It's great to have a new window manager, but what about the graphical rendering engine? That's usually done by Windows still, and what about replacing the GUI engine on Windows. Now, I realize that X has been around forever, and that no-one seriously rewrites X, except for that whole fork a while back, but is there even an OPTION to replace GUI32 on a Windows system?
That's what I'm waiting for. I was really hoping for minWin to be a true core kernel, but I guess that won't happen. Ah well...
What, like Ubuntu?
/me ducks
Ya know, I think he was...
Wouldn't it be nice to emulate ActiveX controls on Linux embedded ARM installations? I mean, who would have thought that the embedded groups were doing it wrong all this time and all they had to do was use Firefox code to do .ocx emulation on the hardware.
This is why I agree that /. should enforce comment posters to be logged in (no, I don't really think that, I occasionally post AC, like once every six months or so)... so that we can ridicule them in public, hahahaha
Um, except for education. I don't mean places with web addresses ending in .edu or .stateabbreviation.us, but rather education in the verb form. I recently (about 3 months ago) did a training session at the office and attempted to explain web security to people. But as a matter of web security, I was trying to explain how javascript can be harmful. To demonstrate this, I showed three separate instances:
Internet Explorer on the default settings,
Firefox on the default settings,
Firefox with NoScript installed.
Now, I freely admit that I didn't show how to go into IE and reduce all the permitted scripting options, because those aren't tunable by one webpage at a time. I have not heard of a NoScript equivalent on IE. Now, I'll continue my point.
As I was demonstrating how JS worked and how it could be harmful, a lot of people were curious what this Firefox thing was, so the session went two ways, with people understanding that there are more browsers in the world than just IE, and to people understanding that their browsers do a helluva lot more than just show pretty pictures.
Now, I have two women in the office who have adopted Firefox just because I showed it to them, and so they figure that was my end goal (no, it wasn't) and I've told them frequently "I don't WANT you to use Firefox over Internet Explorer, I just want you to be SAFE on the internet. I don't care WHICH browser you use, it's your choice." To this they usually respond that they like the add-ons and then they try and ask me why ActiveX won't work in Firefox (I've tried explaining that one over and over and we devolve back to the "internet works in that other thingy" conversation). And I've got one user who won't use Firefox and doesn't trust it at all. And the boss man is still stuck in IE6 world, so even though he likes the concept, he's not changing. Then again, he considers it a challenge to visit websites and to turn on scripting when he needs it, and off again when he doesn't. And I've a whole 'nother user who uses IETab and Fire.FM, but he knew about Firefox before I showed it to the office.
Now, for the caveats, I am THE guy for IT at the office, and we're a small group, about a dozen people. But, the most security related problem I've had in the past three months (as opposed to the dozen or so virii I've removed in the past year alone from the same people's computers) is whether you can make a site secure by going to the address bar and changing the protocol from http to https.
The sites I've found that are best to demonstrate that that doesn't work are http://search.yahoo.com/ and whatever banking site most people use (https://bankofamerica.com through https://wellsfargo.com./ YMMV.
Has anyone else been answering that same email question from friends family and coworkers? It's even to the point that my parents got that same email in their inbox, about a week after the folks at my office. Yai yai yai.
Well, here's what I can't figure out. If Microsoft is supposed to not supply a browser, how does one get one on their computer? And at this point everyone is used to browsers being free and integral, so telling people they MUST buy one because the governing body is trying to encourage innovation and detour monopolistic practices is going to go over like a wet brick.
So I don't particularly see how Microsoft could get away from installing SOME browser on the computers, which is what the problem is in the first place. If they distributed opera instead of IE, someone else would complain about the fact that Opera was the only choice. And since Microsoft distributes Opera now on their computers, then when Opera has a problem, that must be a Microsoft problem. Etc Etc Etc Ad Nauseum.
God damn it man, you need to leave your house once in a while.
You saw the South Carolina article too did you?
So are you trolling or do you honestly believe all that crap?
I can counter most of what you gave as examples to show that your entire argument is flawed, so I figure you knew that too already. For instance, let's just start with you're last ding at Windows, the registry. Without the registry, Microsoft would be doing exactly what Gnome is doing with it's gconf to accomplish the same ends. But instead of having a separate file for each app, the Microsoft devs made the system use a central database with similar APIs. So you're going to complain that Microsoft is doing what the Open Source movement is as well?
But anyways, I'm not preparing to fight with a dull witted opponent, so show me that you believe your given premises to be inherently false or allow me to show you factually why you are wrong...
Are you INTP by chance? That's part of it too, the setting things down and not finding them again later, because they drift into the background...
thank you.
Well said, I wish I could just get half the people in my life to read this thread, and that I could point out your post and one or two others. I am so happy to have the community and brotherhood (non-gender-specific of course, just a word ;] ) that discussions like this reinforce.
THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ALL THE TIME!!!!!
Not trying to yell, just showing emphatic agreement.
And my wife is the same way, so you're not alone there either (no surprise huh).
So do you see a doc, do you take meds, or do you just do work on it yourself? My md says my ins co won't allow him to do referrals, but they say I just need to find my own doc. So I'm totally confused but I know that I need to talk to someone... Not only do I have ADD/ADHD (diagnosed in the 1980s) but I haven't had any treatment or whatever since the mid90s and I come from a background of bipolar family members, and I've started hitting a lot of depressive spells.
To me, all the more reason to find a doc, so just feeling overwhelmed, ya know?
Sounds like a good thesis for a bio major at the expense of NASA or DHS or somebody's grant expense. Hmmm, I'll have to fish that out to a few bio buddies of mine. What's the best way to grow plants indoors with LEDs without the possibility of sunlight, broken down by regional plant growth.
Or perhaps somebody already did that research...
Eh, what about that whole sunlight for PHOTOsynthesis thing?
OMG, where are mod points when you need them, that was the best thing I've heard all day... Shame I've been "putting out fires" and dealing with an Exchange recovery today, instead of getting real work done. Oh well, maybe I can get work done tomorrow and not stare at a black and white "terminal"...
*Yes, for the anally retentive, I do know about RSGs in Exchange and how to use them, still doesn't subtract from how much I hate users...
Does this count?
----
void main(){return 0;}
----
it's 22 characters long, and has a distinct and useful purpose. By changing the return value, one can test a script or other program which relies on return values to branch. For instance, if you need to monitor a program for a return value of 18, but don't have time to wait for the actual program to return 18 to validate your code, you could use this program with the slight modification to test your script. Voila, a useful program that does something that took no time to come up with.
Ok, what? Or perhaps I should phrase it thusly: omgwtf, r u sirius?
A) Why have an opinion if you're not going to admit that it's your opinion? I've never been afraid to say I was wrong on something, and it's an opinion, not a fact. We're all free to change our minds every once in a while.
B) What does my having posted under my account say to you? (Why am I even replying to an AC? Nobody'll come back to this post later to see if I responded I'm sure...) To me it means karma to burn, so what does it matter if I got flamed on a response? Not that I've had a bad response yet from more than one or two people posting under their accounts. You'll notice I've been lurking on /. for a while...
C) What does skin have to do with ANY of this? Or is that why you are afraid to post under YOUR own name?
He voted against Nixon, wasn't that his way of trying to make the best decision he could?
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1063479&cid=26132199
No, what we need is over 1000 trained ninjas attacking in concert in the middle of the night to attack the members of the electoral college as well as all the members of Congress in DC, so that we can start fresh with this whole democracy thing. Funny how we're supposed to be fighting regimes that block citizens of other countries from having a democracy but we don't have anything more than a sham here...
Two parties? Are you serious? Aren't we just about the only two-party democracy in the western world? I have co-workers that didn't know there were other candidates for president besides McCain and Obama...
WHAT? HELLO MODS! That's funny as hell. If you don't get that, quit modding...
erm, don't you still only have one RAID controller per system? Don't I/O requests still bottleneck at the DMA interface if they're faster ($DEITY forbid that happening) because there is only one bus? So how does your RAI[R|M] facilitate this system? You've still got to coordinate all that memory. Unless....
What if each RAM chip is assigned a write bit to one DMA style controller, but multiple or various other controllers have READ ONLY access to the RAM? I don't know if this is even feasible, but it's a thought...