Re:Why we need desktop ENVIRONMENTS
on
The ROX Desktop
·
· Score: 1
>Even more confusing is that some icons can be > dragged to some places, >others to others, and there is no overall policy >as to how this should happen. In > short, DnD should be >centralised in what should be termed the UI >manager -- i.e. a WM with extra bits bolted on.
Um...right...I believe that's one of the general goals of projects such as KDE and GNOME... *sighs*
The thing that saddens me is that some folks will read this last comment, say "damn straight" and go on with it. (Not sure that made sense; I've gone a long time with no sleep. Mmmmm....sleep.) This IS the general direction both KDE and GNOME are going...if I understand your (rather incoherent) explanation...
...although I'm not sure why a window manager should handle drag-and-drop events, when it's the clients that have to deal with the consequences of a drag, or a drop. That would be one talented windowmanager, to be able to handle intelligently every type of drag-and-drop event. I can't think of a single instance of that ever having been done. (Although I could be wrong.)
Right now, I'm using ROX--including the nasty-looking ROX etheme. IMHO, this is the best desktop management system I've used in a *long* while, and it has great ideas. No, it's not a Windoze, NeXT, or Mac clone, it doesn't have 24-bit hand-painted icons, or any of that other crap--but damn, it's smooth.
Please, everyone, give it a look--this is several levels above most stuff out there (at least, free UNIX software:^) And, BTW, thanks to Slashdot for posting this link--I may never use KDE, GNOME, or WindowMaker again!:^) I might even use FVWM1 as my windowmanager again (shock, horror):^)
Well, naturally they had to convert all three results (including the 3 meg original) into 256 gif (or better yet, jpeg uncompressed) because I doubt your browser can show JPEG2000 files. They had to put the results into a framework you could see.
Naturally, no, not in my case either, but it can display 24-bit JPEGs and PNGs. There's no leap of logic that can explain why the image had to be converted to an 8-bit gif (unless, of course, you're afraid that someone will connect to EE Times via an old copy of Mosaic:^)
Yep, and a Lamborghini is faster than my car, but it's not as reliable, and is a more effective way of killing yourself faster.
In other words, I'd lose in a race with a Lamborghini, but my repair bill and hospital bills will be lower, and possibly a longer life span. UNIX/Linux/Hurd has reliability to offer; if you value speed over reliability, you can sit around rebooting your NT and Macintosh boxes all day. I prefer an operating system I can leave running a year or so.
I thought it was Bob that made the comment about having to share, not the CBS flunkee. So, SSSSSSSSSHHHHHH.... don't tell them, they might just not catch on...;^)
I did notice, however, that the CBS reporter posed this question about BSD, however: "That's a Linux-like piece of software, right?" Heck, I'm a Linux user, and *I'm* offended.:^) Sad, sad indeed.
Well, I concede that, but the point is, there are ways.
Sadly enough, you're forgetting that there is one sector of the computer industry that has researched and gotten damn close to perfection on using 2D devices and screens to control 3D environments efficiently: the gaming industry! While I haven't played with it much, Homeworld seems to have a (kinda) nice interface.
What about the current situation we're in? If one doesn't have a taskbar or some sort of windowlist present, one still has to "dance around" if several apps are running...I remember what a pain Win3.1 was. And don't tell me that root-window menus are ideal either...they're not. And adding a rollup-window feature is just a copout.
True, we'll still need menus and taskbars in a 3D environment...but so what. It won't be as hard as you think. In fact, it will be easier than what you do now. Just use your imagination.
...exactly the same, to a point. Quite frankly, if I understand the 3Dwm site correctly, they're using a modified Xfb server to render the windows, then passing a bitmap to the actual server. From a technical point of view, much the same.
OK, I concede both points. So? What you're saying is, "it's not on Linux, it's on Irix." Well, woo, doggees.
This, as far as I can tell from the documentation, is an OpenGL environment that displays flat X windows within a 3D environment. This can be done through hardware-accelerated OpenGL (even Mesa...I have a Voodoo3 myself:^)
The point is, this probably won't be all that hard to port to Linux. I see it as a non-issue as to which system gets it first. And I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone from producing similar, yet different, systems. It might be interesting to see if anyone could do the same thing with FreeWRL or Crystal Space, or go even further and propose a new type of server with a new type of toolkit/interface. Time shall tell.
I think we're missing the point here
on
3D Window Manager
·
· Score: 1
With a good navigation system (I just tried out a demo of Homeworld, which, I realize, is just a game) this would be quite useable. A hideable panel much like we use now would make this work well...also having preconfigured navigation points (this is done in VRML) set to the location of each window would be beneficial.
Remember, if our 2D overlapping-window interface were so great, there would be no reason for windowlists, taskbars, etc.
Combined with a vocal interface, and some intelligent "window management", this could be a really efficient interface.
Imagine being in a totally immersive environment (which the developers are) and feeling like you're standing in a room. On the wall, strangely enough, Netscape.
With confidence, you state loudly and clearly, "Go to Slashdot." Just as you expected, you get your fave news site. You remember that you needed to do some changes to your system. "Give me a terminal." Suddenly, a terminal screen (probably a 3D-managed xterm) and a keyboard pop up in front of you.
Farfetched, but it would be hella cool.
Re:The intended platform for the window manager
on
3D Window Manager
·
· Score: 1
That kind of thinking is the same reason you don't have a Xerox computer on your desktop (what's the point, this is useless, just forget it, show the nice Apple people your toy so they can make a billion damn dollars with your idea.)
I think the point may be (and I'm just guessing) is to, at first, have apps to run in a 3D environment. We're going to need that crutch, after all...
Slashdot Mirror
>Even more confusing is that some icons can be
> dragged to some places,
>others to others, and there is no overall policy
>as to how this should happen. In
> short, DnD should be
>centralised in what should be termed the UI
>manager -- i.e. a WM with extra bits bolted on.
Um...right...I believe that's one of the general goals of projects such as KDE and GNOME... *sighs*
The thing that saddens me is that some folks will read this last comment, say "damn straight" and go on with it. (Not sure that made sense; I've gone a long time with no sleep. Mmmmm....sleep.) This IS the general direction both KDE and GNOME are going...if I understand your (rather incoherent) explanation...
...although I'm not sure why a window manager should handle drag-and-drop events, when it's the clients that have to deal with the consequences of a drag, or a drop. That would be one talented windowmanager, to be able to handle intelligently every type of drag-and-drop event. I can't think of a single instance of that ever having been done. (Although I could be wrong.)
Mah gawd--it ain't pretty; it must suck.
:^) And, BTW, thanks to Slashdot for posting this link--I may never use KDE, GNOME, or WindowMaker again! :^) I might even use FVWM1 as my windowmanager again (shock, horror) :^)
Right now, I'm using ROX--including the nasty-looking ROX etheme. IMHO, this is the best desktop management system I've used in a *long* while, and it has great ideas. No, it's not a Windoze, NeXT, or Mac clone, it doesn't have 24-bit hand-painted icons, or any of that other crap--but damn, it's smooth.
Please, everyone, give it a look--this is several levels above most stuff out there (at least, free UNIX software
Amen, Raster--if only the lesser coders had such a healthy attitude....even if they are better typists ;^)
:^)
Hehe, jus' kiddin'-keep up the good work.
How would looking at KDE/GNOME source break apps? It's like saying my car will break down by reading the manual. :^P
...add it to imlib? So we can use the images in X and X alone??? Why not use the software NOW? It's there, for download.
Well, naturally they had to convert all three results (including the 3 meg original) into 256 gif (or better yet, jpeg uncompressed)
:^)
because I doubt your browser can show JPEG2000 files. They had to put the results into a framework you could see.
Naturally, no, not in my case either, but it can display 24-bit JPEGs and PNGs. There's no leap of logic that can explain why the image had to be converted to an 8-bit gif (unless, of course, you're afraid that someone will connect to EE Times via an old copy of Mosaic
You own an INTERNET???? Good golly, yer a great one. :^)
"Hay Cletus, I think mah Internet's broke!"
AMEN TO THAT!!!! It's not a GNU project, and the GNU project doesn't own the trademark.
Anyways, Linux would probably end up being LESS free then, probably some non-free artwork attached to it (look up icons on www.gnustep.org)...
Yep, and a Lamborghini is faster than my car, but it's not as reliable, and is a more effective way of killing yourself faster.
In other words, I'd lose in a race with a Lamborghini, but my repair bill and hospital bills will be lower, and possibly a longer life span. UNIX/Linux/Hurd has reliability to offer; if you value speed over reliability, you can sit around rebooting your NT and Macintosh boxes all day. I prefer an operating system I can leave running a year or so.
Hah. The thing that'll cook your noodle:
As a user, I'm free to use either Outlook Express OR Evolution.
We just won't mention that whole irrational fear of mutant corn. :^)
My resolutions are the same as the ones proposed by RMS, with the addition of:
3. Do not install GNUstep until the non-free icon situation is resolved.
Make Q1 non-free again, just like the GNUstep icons.
Wha...a GNU project non-free? Nah....
Ask one why the GNUstep icons are non-free.
Why is that, anyway?????
I hope that was sarcasm. If it wasn't...well, I'm sorry, but I can't agree.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
;^)
Pardon my memory, but I've seen interviews where Linus states that he doesn't really care. :^P
I thought it was Bob that made the comment about having to share, not the CBS flunkee. So, SSSSSSSSSHHHHHH.... don't tell them, they might just not catch on... ;^)
:^) Sad, sad indeed.
I did notice, however, that the CBS reporter posed this question about BSD, however: "That's a Linux-like piece of software, right?" Heck, I'm a Linux user, and *I'm* offended.
Well, I concede that, but the point is, there are ways.
Sadly enough, you're forgetting that there is one sector of the computer industry that has researched and gotten damn close to perfection on using 2D devices and screens to control 3D environments efficiently: the gaming industry! While I haven't played with it much, Homeworld seems to have a (kinda) nice interface.
What about the current situation we're in? If one doesn't have a taskbar or some sort of windowlist present, one still has to "dance around" if several apps are running...I remember what a pain Win3.1 was. And don't tell me that root-window menus are ideal either...they're not. And adding a rollup-window feature is just a copout.
True, we'll still need menus and taskbars in a 3D environment...but so what. It won't be as hard as you think. In fact, it will be easier than what you do now. Just use your imagination.
Wow, this sounds...
...exactly the same, to a point. Quite frankly, if I understand the 3Dwm site correctly, they're using a modified Xfb server to render the windows, then passing a bitmap to the actual server. From a technical point of view, much the same.
OK, I concede both points. So? What you're saying is, "it's not on Linux, it's on Irix." Well, woo, doggees.
:^)
This, as far as I can tell from the documentation, is an OpenGL environment that displays flat X windows within a 3D environment. This can be done through hardware-accelerated OpenGL (even Mesa...I have a Voodoo3 myself
The point is, this probably won't be all that hard to port to Linux. I see it as a non-issue as to which system gets it first. And I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone from producing similar, yet different, systems. It might be interesting to see if anyone could do the same thing with FreeWRL or Crystal Space, or go even further and propose a new type of server with a new type of toolkit/interface. Time shall tell.
With a good navigation system (I just tried out a demo of Homeworld, which, I realize, is just a game) this would be quite useable. A hideable panel much like we use now would make this work well...also having preconfigured navigation points (this is done in VRML) set to the location of each window would be beneficial.
Remember, if our 2D overlapping-window interface were so great, there would be no reason for windowlists, taskbars, etc.
Combined with a vocal interface, and some intelligent "window management", this could be a really efficient interface.
Imagine being in a totally immersive environment (which the developers are) and feeling like you're standing in a room. On the wall, strangely enough, Netscape.
With confidence, you state loudly and clearly, "Go to Slashdot." Just as you expected, you get your fave news site. You remember that you needed to do some changes to your system. "Give me a terminal." Suddenly, a terminal screen (probably a 3D-managed xterm) and a keyboard pop up in front of you.
Farfetched, but it would be hella cool.
That kind of thinking is the same reason you don't have a Xerox computer on your desktop (what's the point, this is useless, just forget it, show the nice Apple people your toy so they can make a billion damn dollars with your idea.)
I think the point may be (and I'm just guessing) is to, at first, have apps to run in a 3D environment. We're going to need that crutch, after all...
lest we forget that SGI is using Linux and has dumped Irix...