No, I'm 30, smartass, but I don't live in the country where all dreams come true. And I only counted PCs. But hey, feel free to make fun of me for not being able to buy a computer until like 12 years ago. I hope you're happy now.
I have been using computers for 12 years. I have never turned off my computer unless I had to upgrade a component (duh!) or I had to go away for more than 48 hours. None of the machines I used had any failures whatsoever just because being on all the time. Sure, I had a couple hard-drives which broke, because power went off unexpectedly, and also a few optical drives, but that's because I play lots and lots of DVDs and such. But motherboards, CPUs, graphics cards and memories? Zero failures. I still have a PII@400 MHz in my closet, used as a secondary backup server for my work (on a 40 GB HDD) and it is on all the time. And works.
Although it sounds like fun, I can see some flaws in this approach. First off, I think that whatever you don't ask for and lands in your Inbox/IM windows is SPAM if it contains this kind of URLs. People don't ask if you want to participate, they simply assume you would love to participate and will endlessly spam you with mass messages, e-mails and even calls.
Last time I have encountered such an URL sharing spree was no earlier than a week ago, due to a stupid site that promised that people would win whatever items if they get a certain number of clicks on an unique generated URL, just like it's the case here. All I can say is that I had to sign out from all my IM accounts because of that, and after things cooled down and I started my Yahoo messenger again, it froze due to the sheer amount of offline messages. Turned out that some people sent their bloody link over 1000 times via mass messages. So it's not funny at all, because people all get heated up about it and apply every dirty trick in the book to get an edge over the others:
- Make redirecting web pages and give you a false link by advertising other stuff.
- Threaten you to click on the link
- Beg you
- Send the link every 10 seconds or so ...and so on
In this particular case, I'm safe (not in the US) but I've had my share in the past. And I don't like it.
(disclaimer: I am living in Eastern Europe, so things may look very differently from US, but then again, maybe it's for the better for people to get a glimpse of how things are done somewhere else on the globe)
Well, as usually the truth is somewhere right down in the middle.
I have 2 ISPs (2 different providers). One is CAT5-based (plus optical fiber going out of the area) and the other uses CaTV (tohgther with those infamous CaTV modems I hate). To make things shorter, I'll name the CAT5-based one as ISP1 and the other as ISP2.
ISP1 offers max metropolitan bandwidth 24/7. My city has roughly 300K home Internet subscribers, not counting businesses. I can download from any of them at 100 mbps max theoretical transfer rate. When using Torrent-based downloads, every single one caps at 95-97% of the maximum theoretical amount, which is impressive to say the least. Furthermore, I can browse at the same time without interruptions or latency. I was playing games such as EVE Online and WoW while downloading literally tens of gigabytes of data at max speed and my latency as shown in WoW was about 150-250 ms, which is excellent according to my view.
I have never ever had any warnings from my ISP1 during last 3 years, mainly because they do not count metropolitan data transfers (I asked). They also told me why. All ISPs which offer metropolitan high speed access have an agreement to let those transfers flow freely (mutual advantage) and not count them against customers. It seems the logical thing to do. It's pretty much like throwing a cable between me and my neighbour and turning the pipe on. It's a self-managed thing, and if it works like shit, then it's our fault, not the ISP's.
ISP2 offers CaTV-based Internet Access. Now I have my reasons to loathe Cable Modems because they proved to be unreliable, slower than other types of Internet Access and prone to desync. I've had countless problems with this sort of implementation. Anyways, ISP2 downloads cap at 2 MB/s when downloading from either metropolitan or external sources. They brag about offering 50 mbps transfer rates from Metropolitan sources, but this doesn't seem to be true. I keep ISP2 for backup purposes, so it goes largely unused (i think I used their service for like 10 days during last year or so).
Maybe ISP1 or ISP2 do have a policy to cap heavy downloaders which access data from outside the metropolitan network area, but I've never heard of any case when they did. So either the policy exists but is not applied, or doesn't exist at all.Oh, I forgot to mention that ISP2 gas nation-wide coverage and ISP1 is just city-wide.
So I was wondering what makes US-based (and probably other) ISPs come to such a conclusion and apply such policies. I think it's because their network implementation plainly sucks. Maybe they rely on third party networks to get data across areas where they have no coverage and that costs them. makes sense for a company looking to maximize profits (I don't like this approach though). Don't they have a minimum guaranteed bandwidth? We do have it here, and if one starts complaining that he only can download at 2x of minimum guaranteed speed limit, the ISP just laughs in your face, because that's twice what they guarantee. And to that I agree:)
Let's assume I use videoconferencing from home. A lot. I know people who participate in high-bandwidth audio+video conferences all day, from home. So they eat up a lot of bandwidth for business purposes. They would be pissed to have a cap limit enforced on them:) So what's the ISP's take on such cases?
one more thing: if this policy is written in your contract with them, then you're legally screwed. If not, they're legally screwed. it all comes down to this in the end.
As a conclusion, I don't think "Bandwidth hogs" exist. They're mythical creatures indeed. But what is real is piss-poor network implementation, especially on WAN.
...furthermore, if the survey was something like this:
"Do you enjoy writing? Click on the appropriate checkmark: [ ]Yes | [ ]No"
then all I can say is... "d00d, wtf".
I self-taught to be so attentive when writing and always try to be as exact as possible (although English is not my native language). It's a matter of pride, I confess, but it helped me a lot in the past. My native language contains special characters (îâ) which are used by maybe 1-2% of people while writing on the Internet, mainly because localized keyboards are hard to find and unappealing to most. Even I don't use a localized keyboard but use the OS-defined layout for my native language as default. learning it was pretty difficult, because back when I made contact with computers localization was unavailable. So after years of using English alphabet it was a pain to switch. Nevertheless, I pulled it off and now I'm proficient (albeit not very fast) in writing correctly in both English and my native language.
Why do I say that here? Well, I'm having difficulties understanding what some people write to me; they're using mangled words, numbers instead of letters, and even if in most mild cases of language mutilation I can get what they mean, the more extreme cases leave me perplexed. "I dn knw i r b @ hom 2morw" made no sense to me until properly translated:) - and most of that... can I say "crap"? comes from teenagers. Amazingly enough, this metalanguage has no secrets to them, but my petty attempts to understand them and respond back to them in the same style only amuses them.
So please allow me to say that I seriously doubt this "study".
Buying other characters in EVE for money is forbidden by CCP (game publisher), therefore not "legal" according to their rules and regulations. We're talking about what's legit in the game here, not what can be done with shady techniques. Shady techniques exist in virtually every MMO, but if you're caught your account is shot on sight, for good. It's 100% against EULA.
I have been a game operator in OGame, and went far and wide to kill shady accounts. Was pretty successful too:) But then again, we're not talking about that here. Some other time, perhaps:)
Oh, but you forgot the addiction and competitive behavior.
I've seen this countless times. Duels, OGame, Popmundo, etc., etc. Producer implements pay-for-advantage stuff, players get angry, they yell, grumble, gnash their teeth then silently go ahead and buy the stuff. It's the addiction and the fear of losing the edge that drives them to buy and buy, just like a herd.
In Ogame, hardcore players organized special alliances to hunt and destroy those who pay for advantages in game. This lasted for a couple months, then most of those angered players started buying stuff themselves. And now it's all peace and quiet.
IMO, best payment approach was done in EVE Online. They implemented a method for players to buy a special item called PLEX (30 days Pilot License Extension) and they are able to sell it for ingame currency. Nothing else. This doesn't give a large ingame advantage to players who buy PLEX for real money, because it doesn't make you advance faster. It only gives you more ingame currency, so you afford to buy a ship fast if yours is destroyed. Apart from that, you still need skills to pilot it properly, and those can not be trained faster.
It's no bug, it's a feature. Windows saves power by reducing the monitor contrast and brightness to 0. Furthermore, it turns off the Video Card and unplugs the monitor from the power socket. Then blinds you. ...I just had a chat with Steve, he said "you're lucky we didn't implement the population control routine; we couldn't figure out whether we should use inherent OS radiation or the hammer summoning algorythm on your testicles".
Not to me, it isn't. Why? Because I understand their lack of knowledge on the matter. Some people (a lot, actually) can't make the difference. Furthermore, I do have respect for any job out there, and I don't think my job is better than yours. I design cars and you can't, but you can fix cars, and I can't. And to add up, "IT Guy" means a guy who works in the IT Department, deals with IT stuff, whatever that is. It's a general definition, maybe too general, but it includes software developers, Help Desk employees, etc.
Anyways, I'm not sure how they are perceived in the US; civil actions, penal actions, have no clue. Fact remains: according to law, they're unlawful. And we might have got used to these things and consider them a part of life (just like crossing the road where/when not allowed to), but that doesn't make them right nor legal.
From your entry, I understand that if they're civil actions, then that's okay, not worth caring? Hmm... interesting point of view.
Yes. And don't buy electricity or water, because guess what, in some countries that's a monopoly. A state-owned one. Better stay in the dark and don't wash:)
Joking aside, if you buy a product, you would expect to get "fuel" for it from a competitive market, unless it's technically impossible.
There's a difference though. Taiwan and China had their rough past, whereas IT is a work area. A good comparison is if someone would get angry because they're called human beings. "Dude, you offend me, I'm not a human being, I'm a Software Developer!".
...okay, then again, some software developers would be right:)
Well, think again. In this particular matter, it's not the online thing that's problematic. It's the fact that these online posts creep into the real life. It's something that's said online about you and becomes you, by being repeated offline - in real life, at school, on a daily basis. You gain a (bad) fame because that post is then being repeated verbally and thrown at you while you are in class, while you are on breaks, while yo go out with friends, while you eat and so on. I'll say it again: it's not something that stays online, it's something that creeps into most of your daily activities.
Free speech? Bullying, online or offline, is not free speech man, it's abuse.Lots and lots of people hide behind the Free Speech right, but there's a fine line between free speech and aggression (to me, it's a pretty thick one though).
And yes, I do agree that some people should "man up", but who's to decide how this happens? You? Me? Their parents? Remember we're different, and if somebody can't take shit, they shouldn't be forced to. They should have the option to say "remove this crappy post, because it affects me directly and it makes me feel terrible" - after all, there's the Pursuit of Happiness right out there as well.
Lots of SPAM is not an option or a choice, it's something shoved down your throat. And I didn't say lots of crappy options, I just said options. Having 2 options instead of one is always good. Because it means competition.
Well I say it was about bloody time customers are offered an alternative. And I'm speaking from a general point of view (I don't have a Mac, don't have an iPhone and won't buy any in the foreseeable future). It's generally good for society to be presented alternatives. I would hate it to be forced to go to Microsoft website to get any Windows applications, and not have a choice but to go there.
I absolutely agree. My company has a large sales department. I refer to them as the "sales people" and they refer to us as "the IT people". Nobody's bothered. Why bother? It's like you are angry because you are a Texan and somebody from Taiwan calls you an American. "Oh, wait, dude, I'm not American, I'm Texan!" - now that's plainly strange:)
1. CollegeACB.com is NOT managed by schools, it's managed by students, schools have no say in this. Seems to me you haven't read the article carefully.
2. Bullies usually keep on going because the victim can't handle it anyway. And in the digital realm, simply having to sign in and become identifiable would be a showstopper in the first place.
3. You keep saying how would you feel, how would you react and so on. Sorry to say, but this isn't about attempts to bully you, nor what your reaction would be. It's about a general situation which is seen amongst teenagers.
4. "Bad-mouthing, anonymous or otherwise, can't "shred" your life unless you allow it to do so." - really? Seems you haven't seen anyone being isolated from society because word spreads out that he is like this or like that. If everybody starts avoiding you, you may not allow it to happen, but it's not up to you in the end. It's up to everyone else. I've seen plenty of kids being isolated by society because they looked funny/were poor/had a terrible accent/had strange families/were too short, too thin, too fat/were foresighted and so on. Society rejected them for being non-standard, not the other way around.
5. I can't apply a solution, I'm just talking about a situation. Some people need protection, I say let's find a way to protect them. And please, your argument towards anonymity is... diplomatically speaking, false. You can't mix political views with bullying. "John from Dorm 3 can't fuck properly" is not equal with "I don't like President Obama". Not to mention rape victims. Lying about a person is a felony, punishable by law. Expressing a political view isn't. So let's not mix the pot, it fouls the logic of the conversation.
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No, I'm 30, smartass, but I don't live in the country where all dreams come true. And I only counted PCs. But hey, feel free to make fun of me for not being able to buy a computer until like 12 years ago. I hope you're happy now.
...or sell the HDD to someone you don't like.
I have been using computers for 12 years. I have never turned off my computer unless I had to upgrade a component (duh!) or I had to go away for more than 48 hours. None of the machines I used had any failures whatsoever just because being on all the time. Sure, I had a couple hard-drives which broke, because power went off unexpectedly, and also a few optical drives, but that's because I play lots and lots of DVDs and such. But motherboards, CPUs, graphics cards and memories? Zero failures. I still have a PII@400 MHz in my closet, used as a secondary backup server for my work (on a 40 GB HDD) and it is on all the time. And works.
Although it sounds like fun, I can see some flaws in this approach. First off, I think that whatever you don't ask for and lands in your Inbox/IM windows is SPAM if it contains this kind of URLs. People don't ask if you want to participate, they simply assume you would love to participate and will endlessly spam you with mass messages, e-mails and even calls.
...and so on
Last time I have encountered such an URL sharing spree was no earlier than a week ago, due to a stupid site that promised that people would win whatever items if they get a certain number of clicks on an unique generated URL, just like it's the case here. All I can say is that I had to sign out from all my IM accounts because of that, and after things cooled down and I started my Yahoo messenger again, it froze due to the sheer amount of offline messages. Turned out that some people sent their bloody link over 1000 times via mass messages. So it's not funny at all, because people all get heated up about it and apply every dirty trick in the book to get an edge over the others:
- Make redirecting web pages and give you a false link by advertising other stuff.
- Threaten you to click on the link
- Beg you
- Send the link every 10 seconds or so
In this particular case, I'm safe (not in the US) but I've had my share in the past. And I don't like it.
(disclaimer: I am living in Eastern Europe, so things may look very differently from US, but then again, maybe it's for the better for people to get a glimpse of how things are done somewhere else on the globe)
:) :) So what's the ISP's take on such cases?
Well, as usually the truth is somewhere right down in the middle.
I have 2 ISPs (2 different providers). One is CAT5-based (plus optical fiber going out of the area) and the other uses CaTV (tohgther with those infamous CaTV modems I hate). To make things shorter, I'll name the CAT5-based one as ISP1 and the other as ISP2.
ISP1 offers max metropolitan bandwidth 24/7. My city has roughly 300K home Internet subscribers, not counting businesses. I can download from any of them at 100 mbps max theoretical transfer rate. When using Torrent-based downloads, every single one caps at 95-97% of the maximum theoretical amount, which is impressive to say the least. Furthermore, I can browse at the same time without interruptions or latency. I was playing games such as EVE Online and WoW while downloading literally tens of gigabytes of data at max speed and my latency as shown in WoW was about 150-250 ms, which is excellent according to my view.
I have never ever had any warnings from my ISP1 during last 3 years, mainly because they do not count metropolitan data transfers (I asked). They also told me why. All ISPs which offer metropolitan high speed access have an agreement to let those transfers flow freely (mutual advantage) and not count them against customers. It seems the logical thing to do. It's pretty much like throwing a cable between me and my neighbour and turning the pipe on. It's a self-managed thing, and if it works like shit, then it's our fault, not the ISP's.
ISP2 offers CaTV-based Internet Access. Now I have my reasons to loathe Cable Modems because they proved to be unreliable, slower than other types of Internet Access and prone to desync. I've had countless problems with this sort of implementation. Anyways, ISP2 downloads cap at 2 MB/s when downloading from either metropolitan or external sources. They brag about offering 50 mbps transfer rates from Metropolitan sources, but this doesn't seem to be true. I keep ISP2 for backup purposes, so it goes largely unused (i think I used their service for like 10 days during last year or so).
Maybe ISP1 or ISP2 do have a policy to cap heavy downloaders which access data from outside the metropolitan network area, but I've never heard of any case when they did. So either the policy exists but is not applied, or doesn't exist at all.Oh, I forgot to mention that ISP2 gas nation-wide coverage and ISP1 is just city-wide.
So I was wondering what makes US-based (and probably other) ISPs come to such a conclusion and apply such policies. I think it's because their network implementation plainly sucks. Maybe they rely on third party networks to get data across areas where they have no coverage and that costs them. makes sense for a company looking to maximize profits (I don't like this approach though). Don't they have a minimum guaranteed bandwidth? We do have it here, and if one starts complaining that he only can download at 2x of minimum guaranteed speed limit, the ISP just laughs in your face, because that's twice what they guarantee. And to that I agree
Let's assume I use videoconferencing from home. A lot. I know people who participate in high-bandwidth audio+video conferences all day, from home. So they eat up a lot of bandwidth for business purposes. They would be pissed to have a cap limit enforced on them
one more thing: if this policy is written in your contract with them, then you're legally screwed. If not, they're legally screwed. it all comes down to this in the end.
As a conclusion, I don't think "Bandwidth hogs" exist. They're mythical creatures indeed. But what is real is piss-poor network implementation, especially on WAN.
In fact, it's also a music band's name - and I incidentally like their songs.
...furthermore, if the survey was something like this: :) - and most of that... can I say "crap"? comes from teenagers. Amazingly enough, this metalanguage has no secrets to them, but my petty attempts to understand them and respond back to them in the same style only amuses them.
"Do you enjoy writing? Click on the appropriate checkmark: [ ]Yes | [ ]No"
then all I can say is... "d00d, wtf".
I self-taught to be so attentive when writing and always try to be as exact as possible (although English is not my native language). It's a matter of pride, I confess, but it helped me a lot in the past. My native language contains special characters (îâ) which are used by maybe 1-2% of people while writing on the Internet, mainly because localized keyboards are hard to find and unappealing to most. Even I don't use a localized keyboard but use the OS-defined layout for my native language as default. learning it was pretty difficult, because back when I made contact with computers localization was unavailable. So after years of using English alphabet it was a pain to switch. Nevertheless, I pulled it off and now I'm proficient (albeit not very fast) in writing correctly in both English and my native language.
Why do I say that here? Well, I'm having difficulties understanding what some people write to me; they're using mangled words, numbers instead of letters, and even if in most mild cases of language mutilation I can get what they mean, the more extreme cases leave me perplexed. "I dn knw i r b @ hom 2morw" made no sense to me until properly translated
So please allow me to say that I seriously doubt this "study".
I don't know, but he's not the first. The first ever to beat the game was Chuck Norris. Remember this, or else!
Buying other characters in EVE for money is forbidden by CCP (game publisher), therefore not "legal" according to their rules and regulations. We're talking about what's legit in the game here, not what can be done with shady techniques. Shady techniques exist in virtually every MMO, but if you're caught your account is shot on sight, for good. It's 100% against EULA. :) But then again, we're not talking about that here. Some other time, perhaps :)
I have been a game operator in OGame, and went far and wide to kill shady accounts. Was pretty successful too
Oh, but you forgot the addiction and competitive behavior.
I've seen this countless times. Duels, OGame, Popmundo, etc., etc. Producer implements pay-for-advantage stuff, players get angry, they yell, grumble, gnash their teeth then silently go ahead and buy the stuff. It's the addiction and the fear of losing the edge that drives them to buy and buy, just like a herd.
In Ogame, hardcore players organized special alliances to hunt and destroy those who pay for advantages in game. This lasted for a couple months, then most of those angered players started buying stuff themselves. And now it's all peace and quiet.
IMO, best payment approach was done in EVE Online. They implemented a method for players to buy a special item called PLEX (30 days Pilot License Extension) and they are able to sell it for ingame currency. Nothing else. This doesn't give a large ingame advantage to players who buy PLEX for real money, because it doesn't make you advance faster. It only gives you more ingame currency, so you afford to buy a ship fast if yours is destroyed. Apart from that, you still need skills to pilot it properly, and those can not be trained faster.
You from Dubai? :)
It's no bug, it's a feature. Windows saves power by reducing the monitor contrast and brightness to 0. Furthermore, it turns off the Video Card and unplugs the monitor from the power socket. Then blinds you.
...I just had a chat with Steve, he said "you're lucky we didn't implement the population control routine; we couldn't figure out whether we should use inherent OS radiation or the hammer summoning algorythm on your testicles".
Youngsters... Back in my day, we had NOTHING. And still don't.
Why did you assume I'm ruling them out? :) Thank you for making my point clearer, though :)
So how can you tell whether it's harassment or not?
Not to me, it isn't. Why? Because I understand their lack of knowledge on the matter. Some people (a lot, actually) can't make the difference. Furthermore, I do have respect for any job out there, and I don't think my job is better than yours. I design cars and you can't, but you can fix cars, and I can't. And to add up, "IT Guy" means a guy who works in the IT Department, deals with IT stuff, whatever that is. It's a general definition, maybe too general, but it includes software developers, Help Desk employees, etc.
No, I was just offline :)
Anyways, I'm not sure how they are perceived in the US; civil actions, penal actions, have no clue. Fact remains: according to law, they're unlawful. And we might have got used to these things and consider them a part of life (just like crossing the road where/when not allowed to), but that doesn't make them right nor legal.
From your entry, I understand that if they're civil actions, then that's okay, not worth caring? Hmm... interesting point of view.
Yes. And don't buy electricity or water, because guess what, in some countries that's a monopoly. A state-owned one. Better stay in the dark and don't wash :)
Joking aside, if you buy a product, you would expect to get "fuel" for it from a competitive market, unless it's technically impossible.
...and then again, if you're not provided an option, then you're facing a monopoly. And it will get evil sooner or later. Just due to lack of choices.
There's a difference though. Taiwan and China had their rough past, whereas IT is a work area. A good comparison is if someone would get angry because they're called human beings. "Dude, you offend me, I'm not a human being, I'm a Software Developer!".
...okay, then again, some software developers would be right :)
Well, think again. In this particular matter, it's not the online thing that's problematic. It's the fact that these online posts creep into the real life. It's something that's said online about you and becomes you, by being repeated offline - in real life, at school, on a daily basis. You gain a (bad) fame because that post is then being repeated verbally and thrown at you while you are in class, while you are on breaks, while yo go out with friends, while you eat and so on. I'll say it again: it's not something that stays online, it's something that creeps into most of your daily activities.
Free speech? Bullying, online or offline, is not free speech man, it's abuse.Lots and lots of people hide behind the Free Speech right, but there's a fine line between free speech and aggression (to me, it's a pretty thick one though).
And yes, I do agree that some people should "man up", but who's to decide how this happens? You? Me? Their parents? Remember we're different, and if somebody can't take shit, they shouldn't be forced to. They should have the option to say "remove this crappy post, because it affects me directly and it makes me feel terrible" - after all, there's the Pursuit of Happiness right out there as well.
Lots of SPAM is not an option or a choice, it's something shoved down your throat. And I didn't say lots of crappy options, I just said options. Having 2 options instead of one is always good. Because it means competition.
Well I say it was about bloody time customers are offered an alternative. And I'm speaking from a general point of view (I don't have a Mac, don't have an iPhone and won't buy any in the foreseeable future). It's generally good for society to be presented alternatives. I would hate it to be forced to go to Microsoft website to get any Windows applications, and not have a choice but to go there.
I absolutely agree. My company has a large sales department. I refer to them as the "sales people" and they refer to us as "the IT people". Nobody's bothered. Why bother? It's like you are angry because you are a Texan and somebody from Taiwan calls you an American. "Oh, wait, dude, I'm not American, I'm Texan!" - now that's plainly strange :)
1. CollegeACB.com is NOT managed by schools, it's managed by students, schools have no say in this. Seems to me you haven't read the article carefully.
2. Bullies usually keep on going because the victim can't handle it anyway. And in the digital realm, simply having to sign in and become identifiable would be a showstopper in the first place.
3. You keep saying how would you feel, how would you react and so on. Sorry to say, but this isn't about attempts to bully you, nor what your reaction would be. It's about a general situation which is seen amongst teenagers.
4. "Bad-mouthing, anonymous or otherwise, can't "shred" your life unless you allow it to do so." - really? Seems you haven't seen anyone being isolated from society because word spreads out that he is like this or like that. If everybody starts avoiding you, you may not allow it to happen, but it's not up to you in the end. It's up to everyone else. I've seen plenty of kids being isolated by society because they looked funny/were poor/had a terrible accent/had strange families/were too short, too thin, too fat/were foresighted and so on. Society rejected them for being non-standard, not the other way around.
5. I can't apply a solution, I'm just talking about a situation. Some people need protection, I say let's find a way to protect them. And please, your argument towards anonymity is... diplomatically speaking, false. You can't mix political views with bullying. "John from Dorm 3 can't fuck properly" is not equal with "I don't like President Obama". Not to mention rape victims. Lying about a person is a felony, punishable by law. Expressing a political view isn't. So let's not mix the pot, it fouls the logic of the conversation.