which is typical of people who are losing a debate.
Who's debating? I was just commenting on what I think you are based on your hate-filled rant against my sig. There's no point in debating across the gulf that is so obviously between us. Of course there's no point in calling you a dick either, but I'll admit you pissed me off so I reacted. I'm glad you've managed to confirm that I wasn't too quick in judgement.
"fucking dick" is the best epithet you can come up with?
No. But it's good enough for you.
I see you avoided the question about serving, so presumably you also avoided serving and you *are* an armchair warrior. So stop being a paper patriot and go enlist if you're so damn gung-ho about the military.
Wow. You're a fucking dick aren't you? Military kicked out? Hmmmmmm... that's strange since I served MY time in the military and I don't remember getting kicked out when visiting home on leave. I assume from your statements that you served too? And presumably got kicked out of SF? Or are you one of Cheney's armchair warriors? All tough talk, while you stay home and watch football.
And WTF? "Fornicating gay men in the streets." Turn off Fox, put down the remote control and back away from the TV. Apparently you haven't even visited there before and you're already an expert?....So you're an idiot too.
Will someone explain to me how my original post was a troll? Just a guess... but probably because of your sig. All it takes is one mod who's a bible-thumper...
So the people who are going to suffer are the kids who weren't even born when the deal was made.
You said this:
In terms of suffering, it's IBM who has suffered.
I can actually imagine how the negative effects on the education and academic environment of the kids in a school district with a large debt can be referred to as "suffering".
I am trying to wrap my mind around the idea of a fucking thing (that's what IBM is, a thing) suffering by any definition of the word which is comparable. This is just sad on so many levels.
From the US perspective, 'they' already have introduced a vastly improved game. You call it 'Soccer'.
Except that you've got the chronology wrong (deliberately, I assume), and of course we're just calling it by the name the Brits gave it in the first place
I love it when supposed fans of the sport have no clue about its history; especially when they're trying to lord it over Americans with their alleged superior sports acumen.
Not going to look up the exact figure, but Australia is roughly the size of the US. I can't really accept that two people brought up in the same country, no matter how far apart, can claim to be more different than two people brought up in completely different cultures and vastly more diverse religions than just two brands of the same one.
I'm from Berkeley, California. While I was in the military I was stationed in Connecticut, South Carolina, and, finally, San Diego (southern California). I have now lived in Munich, Germany for about 11 years. I speak German fluently, and my kids go to school here, so I don't merely have superficial view of the culture -- I am immersed in it. I can say for a fact that the world view of South Carolinians was more "foreign" to me than that of Germans. This is true to a lesser degree of Connecticut. When I visit any number of other countries in Europe I find that, despite the major differences in traditions, language, and history, there is a much greater degree of homogeneity in things like e.g. morality, or geopolitical views between many of the countries than, say, between San Francisco, California and Charleston, South Carolina.
Just look at how the Republican party literally tried to make the last election about not letting someone with "San Francisco Values" become the Speaker of the House. I'm trying to think a case in Germany which would even be comparable, and though there are vague appeals to regional differences, I just don't see the public perception of someone coming from one Metropolitan area being used as a bogeyman for voters in another region in the same way.
Of course their are common threads that run through (almost) the whole U.S., just as you can divide Europe into regions of 'similar' thinking (the former Soviet Bloc countries, central Europe, Scandinavia, etc.), but my favorite quote (from me ^_^) about the mutual misconceptions between Europeans and Americans is:
"Americans are almost completely ignorant about Europe... and don't care that they are, while Europeans are just as ignorant about America... but think that they aren't"
(Okay, so I'm no Ben Franklin when it comes to quotes). My point is, many Europeans seem to think that the vast amounts of media they consume about America actually make them very knowledgable about America, and constantly underestimate the extreme diversity there, and try to reduce it to a kind of 'average', which almost always fails to hit the mark. Hell, I can understand that, because Americans do it quite often too, especially where it suits the needs of some demagogue trying to raise a little patriotic fervor.
It would be a lot easier to know whether the reactions to the essay are over the top if we could actually read the essay. I didn't see a link in the article to the essay text...
:-) Well I think she's pretty hot, even if she doesn't quite have the shape she had when we met (2 kids). Still, she doesn't have to try very hard to seduce me;-)
I'm sure the user name was meant to be ironic, but seldom has a slashdot user name been more appropriate. The founding fathers must be spinning in their graves at the gullibility of the U.S. citizenry and how they spit on these hard-won freedoms:-(
Yeah, VHS to DVD was a HUGE 3X improvement, while DVD to HighDef is a MEASLY 6X improvement.
Wait a sec... are you calculating the amount of improvement by just comparing the resolutions differences in the formats? You can't possibly be that simple -- can you? Or do you not remember what it was like to watch VHS? Picture quality was a distant 4th place or lower in my list of things that made DVDs better than videocassette.
1. Do you remember rewinding/fast-forwarding? I mean I hate having to wait for that FBI shit (when watching on my consumer device, as opposed to e.g. Linux where it's not a factor) but that's still quicker than when I would have to rewind the tape because I forgot to the last time. 2. Do you remember how quickly even the best tape would degrade and streeeeetch in certain spots, especially for those favorite parts of a movie which you wanted to see again (this is especially nice for musical stuff: "Blues Brothers" anyone?). 3. Do you remember having to fast-forward to that certain funny scene to watch it or show it to a friend ("wait just another minute; it's almost there"). 4. Do you remember lugging around a whole video recorder and TV with you, so you could watch a flick on the train.... wait a sec: we couldn't do THAT at all! 5. Do you remember how much room all those cassettes took up in even a moderately-sized collection. 6. Do you remember being not being able to choose whether to have subtitles on for a foreign language film, and being able to switch the subtitles... even to the language of the film, e.g. for just a little help understanding the language, while still forcing your brain to practice/learn that language. My wife does this with English language films since her English isn't *quite* good enough to follow a fast, spoken dialog, but she can get by if the words are also being shown; for the really difficult parts she can rewind and switch to German or Hungarian subtitles for just that scene.
Oh, and: 7. The picture and sound are significantly better than cassettes. Presumable 3X better according to your calculations.
That's just off the top of my head. I'm not sure how to quantify 1-6 since they were essentially 0 before and 1 after, meaning infinitely better numerically-speaking.
Then we have DVD -> High Def: 1. Significantly better picture and sound (6x presumably, according to your calculations) and..... ummmmmm..... What was number 2?
I'm sorry I just don't see what the big deal is. I mean, sure all other things being equal, I'm sure I'll like the whole high-def thing better than the 'legacy' DVD, but frankly It's not going to revolutionize my movie-watching experience; it's an upgrade nothing more. To use the tried-and-true car analogy:
VHS -> DVD = Horse and Buggy -> Modern car = revolution
DVD -> High def = Toyota -> Porsche = upgrade (an expensive one at that), but just a matter of degree.
But I'm thinking you weren't around for the horse-and-buggy days of home video, to have made the statement you did:-P
I'll give you a clue that anyone who has watched the Red October should know, the primary source for noise on submarines is the engine, pumps and other machinery. Sure, the hull, propeller and what not can make noise - but you would have to be at significant speeds with an engine running fast enough to maintain them.
Bull.;-)
I'm confused. Are you being ironic? i.e. are you really agreeing with gp post? Because what he said is more or less accurate. At least the part you quoted is. I'll admit I don't have a brother in the Navy, but I am a former Submarine Sonar Tech myself...
I don't know what the state of waiting lists is in the USA, but I suspect it's better
For the 40+ million people without insurance the waiting list is forever. What does that do to the average? Or were you only counting the people who are insured?
A lot of good points which deserve a much more thoughtful answer than I'm gonna give, since I don't have the time right now. But I'll address a couple of them vaguely:
* Away from human contact: sure you have some points that the situation is very different, but we were talking about the psychology. It doesn't matter how close civilization technically is; an inch is as good as a mile if you can't see, hear, or smell it. Being there, you knew you weren't going to be seeing any of that stuff soon -- barring very unusual circumstances. Thinking "well, if I flip out they can evac me" doesn't exactly soften that psychologically.
* Intelligence and training: Again, I was addressing the psychology aspect, but submariners definitely have a higher intelligence requirement. There is definitely *NO* comparison to 'skimmer' (surface navy;-) crews. Even the cooks have to get test scores that will get you technical ratings elsewhere in the Navy since... (to address the "duties" point above) everyone on a submarine has several jobs. Everyone learns at least a little about the other jobs. Everyone with the silver dolphins knows: * where every see-pressure valve is, what it's for, and how to isolate it * where every major electrical system is, what it does, and where to isolate it. * The location and type of every single fire extinguisher, hose, air mask, etc. (we demonstrate this by taking a blind-folded walk of the sub with the sub-qualification examiners) * How all major systems work: electrical, hydraulic, pressurized air...... and lots more.
Same basic idea as a space mission, though of course not to the degree necessary for an actual Mars mission, but I'm assuming NASA can be a bit more choosy about the handful picked for that.
My point was only that few if any non-space jobs come as close to the basic parameters of such a mission as that of being the crew of a nuclear submarine. Not that NASA can just grab a few sub crew members and go; rather, I meant that they could get some good data from such crews and the environments.
Now, what you mean by "outside of human contact" changes the answer completely. Did the SSBNs still get regular radio dispatches (or maybe yo can't say:) )
Only one-way and only text. Families could send so-called family-grams; I think it was 4 or 5 per cruise and a limited number of words -- It might be different now with all the advances in digital transmission of information. News was all in summary sheets the radiomen printed out and left in the mess. I don't think it was any better (in this regard) than what the crew of a Mars mission would have, though of course just our crew itself was more "human contact" than a Mars mission would have as another post here points out.
Yea. right. Prussian Blue on the growler earpiece. Contests to see who can tighten the vice the most on their thumbs. Long multi-watch arguments over anything, the more obscure the better. Taking the blowing sanitary sign off the aft head. Forward pukes vs the nukes.
What would be the space equivalent of King Neptune?
I'd love to have had a shrink on one of our cruises; but I want a low number in the pool on how long he goes before *he* wants off.
Now that's a real submariner talking:-) I Had to laugh, it's been so many years since I've heard that stuff. But then those *are* the coping mechanisms.
On a more serious note, submariners do not spend the entirety of the time submerged away from civilisation. They probably spend at the absolute most a month outside of human contact at sea.
Well that's nice speculation.... but wrong. This should have been modded interesting, not informative.
The nuclear missile submarines do 3 months straight submerged -- every single patrol (my personal longest was 87 days) -- and many submarines have done extended tours, though admittedly usually for PR reasons, like the early Nautilus cruises.
In any case, the original suggestion took the words right our of my mouth. We submariners are the closest to representing people with an appropriate personality type for an extended mission in cramped quarters. NASA should definitely do extended observations and psych evaluations of sub crews on patrols and such.
But why would they? Contrary to popular belief, many of us dont get that warm and fuzzy feeling for helping people with no return expected.
Yeah, and the rest of us label people like that (you?) "leeches", or just "assholes" - people who benefit greatly from the advantages of civilization, rule of law, and a modern infrastructure, then turn around and say "That's mine!! How dare you tax me!" when asked to contribute to that. Generally, that's the sort of behavior which encourages societies to eventually entrust their governments with such tasks, despite how the human leeches cry "Oh no, Socialized Medicine!!!" or "Free market will save us, free market will save us!!!"
It actually says (Gen1:27-28): 27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28
God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.(...)".
Too bad, later editing removed the criteria for determining when it's been subdued;-)
Slashdot Mirror
Wow. Hard to believe my little sig started this whole thread :-) Thanks for covering those points... You certainly have more patience than I do.
Who's debating? I was just commenting on what I think you are based on your hate-filled rant against my sig. There's no point in debating across the gulf that is so obviously between us. Of course there's no point in calling you a dick either, but I'll admit you pissed me off so I reacted. I'm glad you've managed to confirm that I wasn't too quick in judgement.
You really are a dick.
No. But it's good enough for you.
I see you avoided the question about serving, so presumably you also avoided serving and you *are* an armchair warrior. So stop being a paper patriot and go enlist if you're so damn gung-ho about the military.
Wow. You're a fucking dick aren't you? Military kicked out? Hmmmmmm... that's strange since I served MY time in the military and I don't remember getting kicked out when visiting home on leave. I assume from your statements that you served too? And presumably got kicked out of SF? Or are you one of Cheney's armchair warriors? All tough talk, while you stay home and watch football.
....So you're an idiot too.
And WTF? "Fornicating gay men in the streets." Turn off Fox, put down the remote control and back away from the TV. Apparently you haven't even visited there before and you're already an expert?
You said this:
I can actually imagine how the negative effects on the education and academic environment of the kids in a school district with a large debt can be referred to as "suffering".
I am trying to wrap my mind around the idea of a fucking thing (that's what IBM is, a thing) suffering by any definition of the word which is comparable. This is just sad on so many levels.
From the US perspective, 'they' already have introduced a vastly improved game. You call it 'Soccer'.
Except that you've got the chronology wrong (deliberately, I assume), and of course we're just calling it by the name the Brits gave it in the first place
I love it when supposed fans of the sport have no clue about its history; especially when they're trying to lord it over Americans with their alleged superior sports acumen.
Not going to look up the exact figure, but Australia is roughly the size of the US. I can't really accept that two people brought up in the same country, no matter how far apart, can claim to be more different than two people brought up in completely different cultures and vastly more diverse religions than just two brands of the same one.
I'm from Berkeley, California. While I was in the military I was stationed in Connecticut, South Carolina, and, finally, San Diego (southern California). I have now lived in Munich, Germany for about 11 years. I speak German fluently, and my kids go to school here, so I don't merely have superficial view of the culture -- I am immersed in it. I can say for a fact that the world view of South Carolinians was more "foreign" to me than that of Germans. This is true to a lesser degree of Connecticut. When I visit any number of other countries in Europe I find that, despite the major differences in traditions, language, and history, there is a much greater degree of homogeneity in things like e.g. morality, or geopolitical views between many of the countries than, say, between San Francisco, California and Charleston, South Carolina.
Just look at how the Republican party literally tried to make the last election about not letting someone with "San Francisco Values" become the Speaker of the House. I'm trying to think a case in Germany which would even be comparable, and though there are vague appeals to regional differences, I just don't see the public perception of someone coming from one Metropolitan area being used as a bogeyman for voters in another region in the same way.
Of course their are common threads that run through (almost) the whole U.S., just as you can divide Europe into regions of 'similar' thinking (the former Soviet Bloc countries, central Europe, Scandinavia, etc.), but my favorite quote (from me ^_^) about the mutual misconceptions between Europeans and Americans is:
"Americans are almost completely ignorant about Europe... and don't care that they are, while Europeans are just as ignorant about America... but think that they aren't"
(Okay, so I'm no Ben Franklin when it comes to quotes). My point is, many Europeans seem to think that the vast amounts of media they consume about America actually make them very knowledgable about America, and constantly underestimate the extreme diversity there, and try to reduce it to a kind of 'average', which almost always fails to hit the mark. Hell, I can understand that, because Americans do it quite often too, especially where it suits the needs of some demagogue trying to raise a little patriotic fervor.
It would be a lot easier to know whether the reactions to the essay are over the top if we could actually read the essay. I didn't see a link in the article to the essay text...
Wow. You nailed it completely. And made me feel nostalgic in the bargain :-/
Too late dude, it's already been loosed. I think the article is about the attempt to deloose it
:-) Well I think she's pretty hot, even if she doesn't quite have the shape she had when we met (2 kids). Still, she doesn't have to try very hard to seduce me ;-)
-chris
I'm sure the user name was meant to be ironic, but seldom has a slashdot user name been more appropriate. The founding fathers must be spinning in their graves at the gullibility of the U.S. citizenry and how they spit on these hard-won freedoms
Wait a sec... are you calculating the amount of improvement by just comparing the resolutions differences in the formats? You can't possibly be that simple -- can you? Or do you not remember what it was like to watch VHS? Picture quality was a distant 4th place or lower in my list of things that made DVDs better than videocassette.
1. Do you remember rewinding/fast-forwarding? I mean I hate having to wait for that FBI shit (when watching on my consumer device, as opposed to e.g. Linux where it's not a factor) but that's still quicker than when I would have to rewind the tape because I forgot to the last time.
2. Do you remember how quickly even the best tape would degrade and streeeeetch in certain spots, especially for those favorite parts of a movie which you wanted to see again (this is especially nice for musical stuff: "Blues Brothers" anyone?).
3. Do you remember having to fast-forward to that certain funny scene to watch it or show it to a friend ("wait just another minute; it's almost there").
4. Do you remember lugging around a whole video recorder and TV with you, so you could watch a flick on the train.... wait a sec: we couldn't do THAT at all!
5. Do you remember how much room all those cassettes took up in even a moderately-sized collection.
6. Do you remember being not being able to choose whether to have subtitles on for a foreign language film, and being able to switch the subtitles... even to the language of the film, e.g. for just a little help understanding the language, while still forcing your brain to practice/learn that language. My wife does this with English language films since her English isn't *quite* good enough to follow a fast, spoken dialog, but she can get by if the words are also being shown; for the really difficult parts she can rewind and switch to German or Hungarian subtitles for just that scene.
Oh, and:
7. The picture and sound are significantly better than cassettes. Presumable 3X better according to your calculations.
That's just off the top of my head. I'm not sure how to quantify 1-6 since they were essentially 0 before and 1 after, meaning infinitely better numerically-speaking.
Then we have DVD -> High Def:
1. Significantly better picture and sound (6x presumably, according to your calculations)
and.....
ummmmmm.....
What was number 2?
I'm sorry I just don't see what the big deal is. I mean, sure all other things being equal, I'm sure I'll like the whole high-def thing better than the 'legacy' DVD, but frankly It's not going to revolutionize my movie-watching experience; it's an upgrade nothing more. To use the tried-and-true car analogy:
VHS -> DVD = Horse and Buggy -> Modern car = revolution
DVD -> High def = Toyota -> Porsche = upgrade (an expensive one at that), but just a matter of degree.
But I'm thinking you weren't around for the horse-and-buggy days of home video, to have made the statement you did
-chris
What makes this even more funny is his alias "big dumb dog". If that's not a metaphor for the U.S., I don't know what is
-chris
I'm confused. Are you being ironic? i.e. are you really agreeing with gp post? Because what he said is more or less accurate. At least the part you quoted is. I'll admit I don't have a brother in the Navy, but I am a former Submarine Sonar Tech myself...
I don't know what the state of waiting lists is in the USA, but I suspect it's better
For the 40+ million people without insurance the waiting list is forever. What does that do to the average? Or were you only counting the people who are insured?
-chris
A lot of good points which deserve a much more thoughtful answer than I'm gonna give, since I don't have the time right now. But I'll address a couple of them vaguely:
;-) crews. Even the cooks have to get test scores that will get you technical ratings elsewhere in the Navy since... (to address the "duties" point above) everyone on a submarine has several jobs. Everyone learns at least a little about the other jobs. Everyone with the silver dolphins knows: ... and lots more.
* Away from human contact: sure you have some points that the situation is very different, but we were talking about the psychology. It doesn't matter how close civilization technically is; an inch is as good as a mile if you can't see, hear, or smell it. Being there, you knew you weren't going to be seeing any of that stuff soon -- barring very unusual circumstances. Thinking "well, if I flip out they can evac me" doesn't exactly soften that psychologically.
* Intelligence and training: Again, I was addressing the psychology aspect, but submariners definitely have a higher intelligence requirement. There is definitely *NO* comparison to 'skimmer' (surface navy
* where every see-pressure valve is, what it's for, and how to isolate it
* where every major electrical system is, what it does, and where to isolate it.
* The location and type of every single fire extinguisher, hose, air mask, etc. (we demonstrate this by taking a blind-folded walk of the sub with the sub-qualification examiners)
* How all major systems work: electrical, hydraulic, pressurized air...
Same basic idea as a space mission, though of course not to the degree necessary for an actual Mars mission, but I'm assuming NASA can be a bit more choosy about the handful picked for that.
My point was only that few if any non-space jobs come as close to the basic parameters of such a mission as that of being the crew of a nuclear submarine. Not that NASA can just grab a few sub crew members and go; rather, I meant that they could get some good data from such crews and the environments.
-chris
Now, what you mean by "outside of human contact" changes the answer completely. Did the SSBNs still get regular radio dispatches (or maybe yo can't say :) )
Only one-way and only text. Families could send so-called family-grams; I think it was 4 or 5 per cruise and a limited number of words -- It might be different now with all the advances in digital transmission of information. News was all in summary sheets the radiomen printed out and left in the mess. I don't think it was any better (in this regard) than what the crew of a Mars mission would have, though of course just our crew itself was more "human contact" than a Mars mission would have as another post here points out.
Yea. right. Prussian Blue on the growler earpiece. Contests to see who can tighten the vice the most on their thumbs. Long multi-watch arguments over anything, the more obscure the better. Taking the blowing sanitary sign off the aft head. Forward pukes vs the nukes.
:-) I Had to laugh, it's been so many years since I've heard that stuff. But then those *are* the coping mechanisms.
What would be the space equivalent of King Neptune?
I'd love to have had a shrink on one of our cruises; but I want a low number in the pool on how long he goes before *he* wants off.
Now that's a real submariner talking
-chris
On a more serious note, submariners do not spend the entirety of the time submerged away from civilisation. They probably spend at the absolute most a month outside of human contact at sea.
Well that's nice speculation.... but wrong. This should have been modded interesting, not informative.
The nuclear missile submarines do 3 months straight submerged -- every single patrol (my personal longest was 87 days) -- and many submarines have done extended tours, though admittedly usually for PR reasons, like the early Nautilus cruises.
In any case, the original suggestion took the words right our of my mouth. We submariners are the closest to representing people with an appropriate personality type for an extended mission in cramped quarters. NASA should definitely do extended observations and psych evaluations of sub crews on patrols and such.
-chris
But why would they? Contrary to popular belief, many of us dont get that warm and fuzzy feeling for helping people with no return expected.
Yeah, and the rest of us label people like that (you?) "leeches", or just "assholes" - people who benefit greatly from the advantages of civilization, rule of law, and a modern infrastructure, then turn around and say "That's mine!! How dare you tax me!" when asked to contribute to that. Generally, that's the sort of behavior which encourages societies to eventually entrust their governments with such tasks, despite how the human leeches cry "Oh no, Socialized Medicine!!!" or "Free market will save us, free market will save us!!!"
-chris
(heh, can't wait for the flames on this one)
Of course, they do have license plate numbers - but I think that would be a better analogy for MAC IDs.
-chris
A masterful analysis. And I just used up the mod points I had.
-chris
Too bad, later editing removed the criteria for determining when it's been subdued
-chris