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Would a CS Degree Be Good for Someone Over 30?
mbuckingham asks: "I'm 39 and have been programming for 20 years. By 'programming', I'm talking about the usual business applications type of stuff. Easy stuff really. I went to college for a while, but never got my degree. It bugs me that I've never completed my degree, but since I've always had decent jobs, it hasn't really mattered too much. I'm really bored with what I do every day, and I'm thinking about going back and getting the degree, because I think it will make it possible to move towards doing some more advanced, system-level type stuff. I know I don't want a MIS degree, because that would be rehashing everything I'm already bored with. Does this make sense? Would a CS degree or a Computer Engineering degree be better?"
And I went & did my CS degree.
And it does lead to more interesting job offers.
The trouble is, moving from doing business logic type boring stuff to interesting CS type stuff is that you have to take a $40k a year paycut. (and that's after you've had no income for the time it takes to complete your degree).
Its worth thinking about how important money is for you. In the end, I have my CS degree (and I feel good about it, dont mistake me), but am doing the same work mostly.
But I don't mind doing boring work for 6-9 months a year if I can take another 3 months to travel / do charity work / etc.
Would a CS Degree Be Good for Someone Over 30?
That depends. How are you at headshots with an AWP?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
It nearly sounds like you want to use your existing skill set and apply it to a different career field. But my take is that you're never too old to finish your degree. I'm 27, and also don't have a bachelors degree, but once again, I've had decent jobs. However, I will also be going back to finish my degree soon, same degree as you, but I'm going to double major, mathematics and programming. I say go for it, additional education never hurts.
"The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
Granted I am only 21, I started working on my CS degree when I was 17, went for 3 semesters and stopped. I have been hands on with machines since about the age of 7 and found the classes boring (the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy)
Being 21 I find it IS worth going back to classes,even if its only part time. Unfortunately I found out the hard way no matter how much you know, without that little square of paper, they will not even look at you 90% of the time.
Now if you know someone who will open the door for ya great, but if not, at least grab some certs. They will at least look at you that way.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
From my experience thus far (3rd year CS major), getting a CS degree involves very little programming, and involves a whole lot of theory, particularly math. If you're interested in the theory and mathematics of it, by all means, get a degree in CS. If you're not, the piece of paper will still break the corporate ladder's glass ceiling for non college graduates. However, realize there are other options, depending on the university: for me, there's IS (Information Systems), IT (Information Technology), CE (Computer Engineering), and HCI (Human-Computer Interaction). Those majors, with the exception of perhaps CE, won't seat you firmly into operating system land, but will open up broader opportunities than a straight CS degree would.
Note: 20, still in college, basing solely on conjecture and experience of colleagues and alumni.
Having a CS degree is better than having no degree. I am 31 and when I was 18 I got kicked out of college for academic reasons. In my mid 20s I went back part time, one class here and one class there, then recently started going to school full time. I have two AS degrees and am working on a BS in CS. In the past 4 years I have increased my income by $12k/year. I anticipate at least another $12k/year when I have the BS.
I never realized how goofy it sounds to say it, but I have two ASs but now I want a BS in CS.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm in the same boat as you: I never finished college because I was too busy working. The best college I've found is an on-line university that is an accredited institution and takes life experience into account. The college (Excelsior) is great for those of us that don't need to take introductory computer courses or even some of the higher-level classes. Helps get that piece of paper so people can see that someone else agrees that you know what you know.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
I think - honestly - that a CS degree at your time in life is worthless for the most part. I am in a similar situation, in that I have a degree in International Politics. Yet, I've been programming since age 11 and working professionally as a programmer, project manager and systems development manger since 1993. Many of my staff have CS degrees. However, I find that a CS degree does little for ensuring a person is well-suited for the task of developing software and/or running systems.
:P
I have hired staff members with CS degrees who would be better off as real-estate sales staff. Conversely, I have one programmer with a history degree who is excellent at his job.
I am thirtysomething as well, and have no plans to go back to school for a CS, MIS or even a MSIS degree. In my opinion, the degree just gets you "in the door" as it were. Once you've got some (hopefully good) experience behind you, the degree becomes less important.
Keep in mind, too, that even as a manager, I get to write queries against SQL databases with 140M records - that impresses some of the young'uns.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
I decided to go back to school to get a math degree, and either minor in CS or make it my second major. I'm 29, not 39, but I've gotten bored with coding business apps too. I decided to focus on math because it opens up other areas, as well, such as EE, ME, finance, structural engineering, and many others. I think I'd rather work with robotics than develop desktop/server apps, because I'll actually be able to physically interact with my creations. You might consider something similar to get more interesting work. I enjoy doing the math, hence my major, but anything with embedded systems work may be more interesting to you and therefore, CE might be a better tack.
You ARE crazy. How the hell do you fit a street address through a tube? Dont you know anything about the internet?
Geez, kids these days!
"more advanced, system-level type stuff" is.
System administration, or embedded programming? Or just challenging programming in C, or C++?
If your close to finishing your degree, I'd go for it. Typically, our company hires more on experience and skills than education, but that said, we have a tough time finding people in general.
You might want to do some functional interviews - find companies that do what you are interested in, and go in and talk to them. Find out if it's really what you are interested.
Once you find what you are interested in, tailor your courses to make you a good candidate for the position. IE if you are interested in embedded, real-time development, avoid "Ethics in Computer Science" and take the real-time programming courses. If your school is any good, they'll be very challenging.
A degree also gives you management potential; as you get older, you might want to get out of the grind, get an MBA. I keep reading that business+technology is very in-demand.
One final benefit of a degree - if you want to travel and work (ie move to Australia and work there for a year), a degree is almost mandatory for getting the visa.
It won't hurt, and it could be interesting. I went back for a second degree when I was 27, in Accounting, of all things. I used it to get a job with Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, which has led to a great career for me.
If you do the degree at the right school, a key benefit will be the availability of the career placement apparatus of the school, which is one of the easiest routes to a quality job with major industry players at the end of the process.
I agree with the person who noted that the more CS'y jobs pay less. I do datawarehousing/data mining/predictive modeling, and make much better money than the average Java/C#/C++ dev, based on watching the job boards. My work isn't as -cool-, but it pays well and I find it interesting. Sure, it'd be cooler to be a game programmer or device driver hack, but I like to play with my kids and golf, and if I have to write SQL and Crystal Reports stuff to make that happen, that's fine with me.
It's also fun to go back to school and babe watch.
I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
When a cohort graduates, employers are lined up to hire the new grads. That's how and when they're used to hiring entry level employees. Graduates who take a few months off often have a much harder time finding a job. So, one advantage of doing a degree is a smoother hiring process.
i can't tell whether you're looking to use a degree to advance your career or not. on one hand you say you've not needed it so far, and on the other you say you think it might open doors. it doesn't sound like you have a specific goal for which a CS degree is a requirement, so lacking that, I'd say don't get an inferiority complex.
ask yourself, "do i enjoy dealing in underlying academic theories, or do i prefer concrete applications to real problems?". if you're tired of dealing in the latter, intellectually curious about the former, or want to gain some specific skills, go for it. if, however, you're just having a vague feeling of "missing out", i'd say don't. degrees are best attained with a purpose in mind, and it sounds like you're doing fine as-is.
if you're still not sure, why not try to find an appropriate class to take without committing everything, as a test of your own enjoyment/committal.
as someone who did the opposite and started with much schooling and less practical experience, i'll tell you i look over the fence at your green grass now and then too. i don't utilize the theory i've learned nearly as much as the more practical knowledge. the rare circumstances i do utilize the theoretical learning are fulfilling tho.
I have no degree.
.. WHILE .. You loop over things .. You know, loops?"
In fact I'm a high-school dropout (though I got the GED).
I'm a manager at my current company.
I've had up to 12 people reporting to me.
Of those 12, 2 I count as Sr. people, and neither has ever gone to college.
And by Sr. I mean I can leave them alone and they just know what they are doing. The type you say "Give me a widget" and they'll go design what your thinking almost spot-on perfect.
I have had 3 people who have PhD's, they are all Jr. programmers who I'd say really are not that worth it.
One that no longer works here I had to explain over and over and over again how to do simple things.
"Its a while loop
I know there are large companies that "require" degrees, however I also know a lot of people who work for said companies and are utterly bored to death.
I work for a medium sized company that says "Degree or equivalent experience".
Working here I've written in C, perl, Lua, Java. I've written threaded to multiplexing to client/server to fancy GUI programs.
Been an admin, a networking engineer, a programmer, now the managers hat.
I have a world of freedom.
In my experience smaller to mid-sized companies are the most interesting.
I have a few friends who work for some larger companies.
Very few are given real freedom, especially in comparison to how much I have.
They tend to get stuck being one of X-thousand programmers, always working on the same thing, just a new revision.
So do you want a degree that a larger company may want, but you'll probably be bored to death?
Or a small to mid-sized company that probably doesn't require one and gives you more diverse assignments and keeps you interested?
Oh yeah, and my opinion as a hiring manager, we don't give much credit to degrees. I've yet to see one that actually teaches anything we use in the real world.
I'm sure its great for example with Google which does so much advanced mathematics work, but your not going to find that at most places.
This is of course just one managers opinion, your millage will vary.
Though its an opinion at least shared by many other execs I've talked to.
In any case it'd be interesting to read about your point of view if you wouldn't mind sharing.
-- the cake is a lie
And stay upwind.
http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html
Maybe a math or applied math degree?
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
Actually if you understand how the phone sytem works? The analogy isn't a bad one.
I have been hands on with machines since about the age of 7 and found the classes boring (the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy)
He should have said you were fucking stupid. And then he should have told you to shut up.
There's no point in wasting his time and your classmate's time with such pathetic, petty "debate". A phone number is a much better analogy, especially when considering mobile phones (which is the only phone that many people have today).
Unlike a street address, but like a phone number, IP addresses are not fixed based on location. On an internal network, you can use whatever IP addresses you want, regardless of where your devices are, or where they might happen to move.
We could go on, but I don't know if you'd really understand such concepts. I mean, you couldn't even make it past your second year of undergraduate studies.
I think going back to school would be a good idea. You'll have an opportunity to take a few courses from several research areas in CS and try them out. Maybe you will like AI. Perhaps you'll get into grid computing. Maybe you will discover that you hate databases. Plus, when you're done, you'll have a degree. A degree might open a few doors that were closed to you before, although you already had the right experience and knowledge.
I am helping a friend with her degree from the University of Maryland(they do a lot with the military community and I am a contractor and she is the wife of a soldier) and from what I have seen the program is pretty decent, if a bit light on programming. They actually do real discreet math for instance(they have to prove a lot of things), and I was surprised since before I held a pretty dim view of online programs. I still hold that view on most programs(University of Phoenix being among the chief offenders), but there are some decent ones that you can do while still keeping your job. Hell, the company might even pay for it. My advice would be to find a program that is associated with a good program in meatspace and see what the requirements are. Even if you can just do half the degree online, that can still save you a lot of time and money, two things pretty much everyone is short on.
Monstar L
+1, Bitter & Awesome
You're obviously not unintelligent. So think of what you would really like to do, and then teach yourself the langauge that would be most useful in that position. And then USE IT. Not for pay, but using it in the real world is the only way to really, really learn a language. For example, if my end goal was to be soemwhere it would pay to be known as an accomplished C progammer, I would teach myself C and then do something utterly crazy like start making simple contributions to the Linux kernel. Point to that sort of thing in an interview and you will already have established yourself as knowning (and having proved that you know) more than any other candidate.
Sure, this will be hard, and especially if you keep a full time day job it's going to be a pain and take a year or two. But you'll end up in a far better place than if you go the "normal" route.
No, this advice is not theoretical. You're welcome to ignore it, but don't do so because you don't think it would work. It does. There's a whole generation of well-paid people rather older than you who never had any formal computer training but got their feet wet in exactly this kind of way.
When you have complete knowledge of the system you're working in, you can rely on the basic analytical techniques taught in all scientific disciplines. Most often, though, you have a complete understanding of limited parts of the system and have to rely on instincts and guesswork for the rest. That's when a knowledge of history comes in handy, if only to help you generate a list of things that could go wrong. A basic background in CS also helps avoid the situation where you get carried away with an awesome "new" idea you just thought up that has actually been around for twenty years. Spending your time rediscovering the limitations of a twenty-year-old idea is fun, but basically a waste of time. There are enough unsolved problems that you can cheat on the solved problems without worrying that computing will be too easy :-)
(Note that I'm not saying you should skip the problem sets. Quite the opposite! The problem sets are designed to impart skills and knowledge, not artificially slow you down.)
Both the applied classes and the theory classes teach you a standard vocabulary that makes it much easier to communicate your ideas to people who share that vocabulary.
Most people refer to CE as Civil Engineering. CompE should be used to avoid confusion.
I'am almost 32, and like you, I did not complete a CS degree when I was 21. But, I've been working as a programmer, DBA, project manager, system administrator for the last 10 years, with some pretty good money. I then decide that it was enough, that I need to have this CS done at once. But wait.. They won't accept me at first because I haven't been at school for a while (universite de montreal, that is). I have to do some credits to 'prove' that I am still schoolworthy. I don't think it's much fun first, I wanna do CS. But while doing these credits, I discover that I can really use my computer skills at a professionnal level, but in another faculty. So I've applied in an Environmental Geography program, and I like it ! I've been doing it for a year now, doing remote-sensing and numbercrunching with ease. I work part time at my last employer, and it's ok. Less money, but enough to do a trip per 2 years oversea, +the usual stuff. I think that when you are 30 and going back to school, you really know what you like, and what you don't, compared to youngster around. And experience cannot be so much learn at school neither, so you can really keep it up if you want it. Good luck to you ! flak
I just finished my MS in CS last summer at the ripe old age of 36. I had switched careers from biotech to programming, and felt I needed some kind of lambskin saying "this dude has a CS degree" before HR would pay attention to my resume - I had a few phone interviews that went really well until they saw my MS Biology..... :( Seemed to have worked; I got my current position after getting the degree.
I really enjoyed the classes involved, and it did a good job of exposing me to new (to me!) topics, such as AI. I recommend it if you can afford the pay cut. If you can't, well, it might not be worthwhile.
Save the Music; Save the World at http://www.TuneTriever.com (Our latest Android game)
Best to get a degree which reqires 'boots on the ground'. Civil engineering, environmental engineering, construction engineering, petroleum engineering etc. Most other types of engineering, and CS, can be 'offshored'. If you like to draw Architecture may not be a bad idea. But get a degree which requires *you* to be there. Don't go CS unless you intend to go to grad school. If it is a secure trade you want, engineering can give you one.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
"The demand continues to grow in this sector, and I suspect that online degrees will gain increasing currency because traditional schools will simply become less attractive to those that don't want to put up with everything from weird antics of professors to parking problems."
Here's something you may want to read
I don't recall all the details, however he said pretty much an IP address is like a phone number.... and thats it, when i asked for elaboration he said it didn't matter. I than continued to tell him how personally I feel a street address is a better analogy.
I may have been wrong myself but that is how I was taught by my CISCO CCNA teacher, I would rather take his word on it that a teacher pulling 3 different classes, only one being a CS class.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
No, it's useless. So would any other degree, be it in engineering, health care, medieval Italian or croquet. You're damaged goods. At 39 your life is over and all you can do is coast in your current non-career until retirement when you and the missus move to Florida and you spend the last waning, bitter days playing bad golf with Hank, a former insurance salesman that smells of cooked cabbage and keeps droning on about the life insurance business.
On the other hand, if you forget the career thing for a moment, then yes, a degree in cs - or in medieval Italian for that matter - may very well be an excellent choice. You get to really dig in on something you're interested in, expand your horizons and meet and work with a (probably pretty diverse) group of people you would never had the opportunity to do otherwise. Is it something you yearn to be doing? Then do it. You may even pick up a story or two to shut up Hank.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
When I studied CS in Ireland back in the 1980s, we had a term for people like you: cockbaiters.
No, the 'cock' portion of that word does not refer to penis. It refers to your cockiness. You know, the way you always think you're correct, when actually you're a fucking moron.
The 'baiter' part refers to how you, driven by your endless supply of cock and a need for attention, must constantly harass professors when they make straightforward analogies. You try to bait them into a debate, which in turn only wastes everyone's time.
Such people rarely lasted past their first year, and were surely gone by the end of their second year. I see that was the case with you. You came into the institution with all the cock in the world, and then reality smacked your sorry ass down, and you become a pathetic drop out.
It sounds like you were trying to turn a shallow treatment in an intro class into something more interesting. If you already understand the material, just sit in the back, read a book, and let the professor teach. If that chafes too much, look for a school where you can bypass prerequisites. Some private schools allow that, and some public schools have honors programs that allow it.
I think what you really need to ask yourself is "What degree will help me stop working for other people for the rest of my life and help me work for myself?".
:)
Cheesy pyramid-scam sounding stuff, I know, but you're better off learning how to run a business that hires people with CS degrees than to be the guy that cranks out the code. Since you're 39 I'm sure you have more than enough experience in the day-to-day business world of whatever niche(s) you've worked in to maybe start your own company. I say Accounting or Business Management or something like that. Coding for pleasure during your down-time is always better than coding for someone else
I'm barely over 30 years old, and I've worked in Microsoft, Cisco, Stanford, Juniper and other Major high-tech corporation as a Senior Software Engineer, and I didn't graduate from high school or even offically become matriculated to a University or take an SAT. I did audit many core CS courses at a top school (UC Berkeley) for no credit, and hence would like to think that I know a bit of CS. My opinion is that having Computer Science knowledge (not IT knowledge) is more important than the degree, but having the degree is of course a way of getting there.
My first degree was a BS in MicroBio/Genetic Engineering. Did some interesting work in it (including at CDC), but it was the 80's.....
ended up coding and found that I liked it and was good. After a decade, I went back for a CS degree thinking that I had good knowledge already. I found out that having the coding and logic down allowed me to ace all the classes in CS. BTW, I learned a LOT. What I found out was how to code efficiently and how to think beyond experience. The typical [CM]IS degree is severely lacking. In addition, most of the engineers are lacking on that (but have some other very unique strengths). From there, I have been all over the field. I have worked at HP, IBM Watson, US West AT, Bell Labs, and 6 start-ups. The BSCS (technically; I do not have it; I finished the core work, but was only interested in going to MIT or Stanford for a masters and ran out of money) is what allows that, not the experience.
Now, with all that said, I say take up CE. Why? because, the core software jobs will disappear. They already are. Instead, you will want to be able to do hardware AND software. The CE degree with not give you everything that I had, but it will give you the guts which is the most important. But you will be able to work on start-ups on your own and create interesting hardware.
I would also strongly suggest one or 2 classes in Business esp. business start-up. The reality is, you want to own the company.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Yeah, clueless. It's been a long time since either a phone number or an IP address was like a street address.
The distinction is how "locative" an ID is. Seat numbers in a stadium are locative. But few other IDs are completely locative any more.
At one time, phone numbers really were locative; the first three digits specified the central office, or for larger offices, the switch within the CO, and the last four digits were the line number within the switch. That dates from the era when phone numbers were read like "PLaza 5-1000". But that was a long time ago. Now there's a lookup in the middle; the number goes into a database and a location comes out. That allows for number portability, and also means all the numbers can be used.
The same thing happened to IP addresses. At one time, you could route by tearing apart IP addresses. In the beginning, network 10 was the ARPANET, and the last byte was the IMP number. Now, it's lookup-based, and routers have huge tables.
This is a continuing struggle with numbering plans, from zip codes to Ethernet addresses to UPC codes. They tend to start out locative, but eventually become a flat, arbitrary space as the demands on the number space increase and things change over time.
If you can stand hearing "oh my god, I was horrible at math!" every time you meet someone, then a math degree (applied) is probably a better choice. You can still do programming and management stuff, as well as a whole new world of other things, and best of all, chicks really dig math majors.
especially when considering mobile phones
...Mobile Homes
Dont you know anything about the internet?
I believe you meant "the interwebs".
I've been programming for almost 23 years, on all kinds of platforms, mostly doing systems programming, middleware, operating systems work, etc. Most of my career has been spent on Wall street. Last year I made 500K.
I think a degree can help get you in the door. But experience and contacts are worth more then the degree over time.
Well my Grandpa played softball until he was 92. He was the designated runner for three other guys on his team (they had worn out knees)... He only quit on Grandma's request. She was afraid he could not see the ball well enough, and was too fragile to take one in the face. He slowed down and died at 96.
- High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
Also, as noted by others, you may see a bit of a pay cut, but that depends on the kind of jobs you look at and how you play your experience. Technically - a lot of companies simply count a 4 year degree as 4 more years of experience; but they don't give you the pay grade for it. So, if you do go for the degree, make sure to keep up with the field you've been in for the last 15 years, and then market yourself into that field with the degree; then you should come out on top - assuming you kept up with it. (I.e. don't give up your day job.)
Hope that helps.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
And how did he come into the industry?
There have been times in the past two decades when it was extremely easy for people with little or no schooling to get their feet in the door. That time has passed. Now, while there are always a few who still manage this, it's MUCH harder to get into the industry without SOME sort of qualifications.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
A street address tells you where somebody is physically, while neither a phone number or an IP address do. When I did tech support for an ISP I used the analogy of a large office with a PBX/Centrix system to have multiple extensions and one public phone number to explain NAT. Never had a bit of trouble making people understand it.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
In the time you get a CS degree, which will be a couple of years, you'll be doing the same boring work. And besides that, there's no guarantee that the degree will get you more interesting work.
The only thing that will get you more interesting work is another job. I was also doing lots of Java programming in a business environment. I got tired of it and applied for a job at a space/climate research organization. It was a difficult interview, but I was very frank about my abilities and I got the job. We're using Linux (C, Perl) to read out custom made instruments. It's very challenging, but lots of fun.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
You don't want a CS degree, you already know the computer stuff. Want you want is a mathematics degree... CS is just applied mathematics. If you don't like that option then try physics or electrical engineering.
I'm twenty. I'll start philosophy as a major and political science/literature as minors in a month. This will give me exactly no enhanced chances in the IT. However I still feel like doing it. Hoorray for unemployment.
I am also extremely curious about which schools provide a worthwhile master's degree in computer science. I've thought about going after this from time to time, because I've had a lot of informal exposure to compiler theory, file processing, operating systems, etc over the years but have never had anything formal and don't have the official degree.
If anyone has any real-world experiences with schools that have an online master's degree in computer science, please share your experiences. It's hard sometimes to even tell the schools from the commission-based referral services based on their web sites, and hard to know if schools are worthwhile or not.
Little things mean a lot: Most online education I've seen seems to be based on ActiveX controls in IE/Windows only - surely advanced degrees are compatible with Linux?
A degree is good for everyone, no matter whether you are 30, 50, 70, or 90, and no matter whether you can actually use it for a career. The purpose of a degree is to broad your mind and make you think better and become a better human. Degrees are not designed to help you feed your stomach; this is what a job is for. While a degree that can be useful for jobs is of course better, I think you should pay attention to your mind and your education first (especially considering that you have successfully penetrated the job market), and not surrender your education to your employer's needs. Of course, if you can find a degree that is good both for your education and your career, it's better (as all win-win situations).
In choosing a degree you have to take into account:
I recommend Oxford's Software Engineering programme and the Open University (UK). If you decide to take the certification route I would suggest to take university certificates in addition to professional certificates (like Cisco's CCNP). For example I have found this company and O'Reilly Learning offer vocational training programmes with non-academic continuing education certificates issued by real universities.
It may be that I've been in embedded systems, which is a real niche field, but no one has ever even mentioned my lack of a degree. The only place it might count is with the personnel (``HR'') department, where they know nothing about the job, and only do a diff on your resume and the job posting. So long as you either
- know someone who can introduce you to the hiring
manager,
- apply to a company small enough that they have no
meaningful personnel department, or
- apply to a larger engineering-driven company where the
personnel department knows its place,
the lack of a degree should have no effect. (This assumes you have the chops in the first place.)On the other hand, it couldn't hurt. :-) And if you
select your classes carefully, you can learn a lot of
fascinating stuff.
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
Well, I'm a lot like you: thirtysomething, no degree. Been teaching artificial brains how to think since 1984, commercially since '86 (hey, that's over a querter of a century! ;)
:)
I'd say you could try joining a remote university, i.e. doing everything from home via mail. You can use the evenings to work yourself all the way up to a Ph.D. (looks nice on a card, and you'll feel good about it).
A 'real' university, while great fun, would cost you a heck of a lot of money - even if you do it here in Germany, where it's (nearly) free. And you'd have to work in the evenings just to earn your rent and food...
Me, I'd advise against it. If you really are bored in the evenings, do what I do: code something interesting. Maybe it's only interesting for you, maybe other people will like it, maybe you'll even become stinking rich - who knows? But you won't be bored
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
Computer engineering is a completely different field from what you have been doing and from CS in general. It's hardware based engineering. That's the first choice you have to make, hardware or software. If I were in your situation I would go for a Software Engineering degree instead of CS. This will be much more useful for you most likely.
nothing
"An actual Computer Science degree is worth so much more than just certifications and experience. This field is always changing, and a Computer Science degree means that you have been trained to adapt to it, while people with certifications can be swept out with last year's software if things in the industry change beyond their certifications."
Having a Computer Science degree is like being certified in anything computer science related, for life. If it changes, ok, I can read up on it and be good to go. Meanwhile, someone without a degree has to read up on it, study it hard, and then take a test to get a piece of paper saying that they can do that, which will be out of date in a year.
So, yes, it's worth it. It's definitely worth it.
(the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy) well, the teacher saying that the IP address is more like a phone number IS more realistic, here are a couple of points to ponder... IP address set by EITHER computer operator, or DHCP server (you cannot just tell everyone my address is 667 santa way, I am the neighbor of the beast, and expect to get the mail delivered when in actuality you live at 623 Bourbon Street. N.O.La. USA...) the IP address can be somewhat portable, like a phone number... either dial up, or DHCP works this way... think router and a wifi card... Now, the MAC address, THAT is more like a street address... it is hard coded into Ethernet devices, but can be changed if necessary on some things, and can be spoofed... like a home router cloning the MAC address of the computer connected to it due to ISP rules. You are not necessarily crazy, unless you do the same thing over and over again in the same way, expecting a different response...
I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! E. A. Poe
After programming for nearly 15 years, I finally got my B.Sc in CIS in '95. Several months later, I left the job I was in, and got one with a telecom. A while after I was hired, I asked my manager if the degree had any effect, and was told that it helped them get me through HR.
In the early nineties, I and my late wife worked for Radian Corp., in Austin. After nearly nine years, she got *dumped* on a Friday afternoon, and in that Sunday's want ads, they were looking for someone to do *exactly* the same job, not because she couldn't do it, but because they wanted someone with a four-year piece of paper. At the same place, I was a "tech IV", rather than a "staff scientist", even though I had been *working* in the field since before half the folks I was working with started college. I was paid significantly less, as well: no four year piece of paper.
The *REAL* problem are HR and headhunters, 85% of whom HAVE NO CLUE what the real requirements are for the position they're trying to fill, and don't *give a shit* about learning anything (that's haaaard, to quote that Barbie doll), and so look only at acronyms they've been handed, and nothing else.
Oh, and let's not forget their attitude of "oh, you're 'between positions', so you're not 'fresh'"....
So, yeah, get the degree. And Come the Revolution, forget about wasting ammo lining HR up against the wall, just lay 'em down on the street and pave them into it.
mark "why, yes, I *am* hostile to HR people"
As much as it pains me, I have to come to terms with the fact that I'm not smart enough to go through CS. The math kills me. I thought I could learn it if I tried hard enough but after enough failures I'm ready to give up hope.
For the meantime I'll just use PHP because I understand it and although it's slow and far from perfect it is simple and does what I need it to do.
The best programmers I have hired were not CS majors. One was a clinical psychologist and the other was a Cardiologist who was tired of practicing medicine. They knew a lot about programming but, more importantly, they knew about real world stuff and how programming could be applied and used by real people.
I recommend getting a degree in something like electrical engineering or a basic science but with a heavy dose of computer engineering as a minor or at least as part of your education. You already know the programming stuff.
The CS degree is good if you want to pursue CS research or if you plan to design compliers or next generation systems of something. If you want to design the next search engine or invent some new networking algorithm the CS degree is probably necessary. If you are programming for business or engineering, there are better options.
Nobody's asked about your location, we assume you're in the U.S. I guess.
Is programming still a good idea as a career in the U.S.? Aren't people still looking for backup careers in fields that require physical presence? Certainly, getting a feel for the future of the field matters when trying to decide about spending time and money on training therein.
I'm replying a bit late, but what the hell...
I think you should go for the CS degree, but only if you're genuinely interested in some CS topics like algorithm analysis, language design, advanced data structures, distributed systems, machine learning, etc. If you like that sort of thing, then you'd probably enjoy the CS program and the kinds of jobs you could get with the degree afterward. But if you're thinking of going back for the degree just so your resume looks better, I'd recommend against it. Your years of experience as a developer should matter more than a degree for most jobs, at least at companies that you'd want to work for.
In a past life, I was a manager at IBM for a while, and I had a very good team of engineers. About half of them had a CS background, but the other half had degrees in things like percussion and philosophy. My degree is in geophysics. And one guy on the team was still working on his associates degree. A person's degree didn't seem particularly correlated with how smart they were or how much they got done. The percussionist and philosopher ended up writing some of our trickier, more algorithmic code.
On the other hand, here at Google where I work now we seem to have a pretty strong emphasis on degrees, especially for people without much industry experience. It makes some sense, given the huge volumes of data we work with and the interesting algorithms we have to use to do it. But still, it's possible to get into even this kind of environment without a CS degree if you have some knowledge and experience in the right areas.
I just finished my degree (BS in CS) at age 42 so it's definitely do-able. Couple of points:
1. If you're currently employed, see if your employer provides tuition assistance or reimbursement. It will increase the time required, but you will graduate with less debt. It took me 11 years (off & on) but I have zero school debt right now.
2. If you have an option between several different schools, make sure you shop around regarding how much of your existing credits they'll accept.
Im an Oracle DBA who has worked in tech support for 13 years, last 4 of which has been Oracle related. I do not have a CS degree and have considered it, but my concern is that if I do take a CS degree, this will not automagically make all the interesting jobs appear in front of me! I work in Malmö, Sweden and most IT jobs in this area are consultancy jobs, which in this day and age has little relation to traditional 'consultancy' jobs but tend to be more of an IT techie/coder type job role, more often than not at a small startup company, and startups are a dime a dozen. They sell a product and the 'consultant' codes or supports it. I have no idea where I could get a 'decent' IT job in Malmö that doesn't involve being a code monkey for a services company. Only place I can think of is working for an acedemic institution.
Taking a Maths/CS degree may open up many more exciting areas but if the jobs don't exist in your geagraphical location, then there is a lot more to consider when choosing a degree. Of course, I am aware that you only look at job ads that are relevant to your area of expertise, but you still usually get a good feel for which industries are available in a given city.
"Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman
I've recently graduated with C.I.S degree, I deeply resent it. So, I am going to try get CS degree not for jobs but a place in academics. I am 33 yrs. old, but that is not going to deter me. I am not interested in business applications, I am interested in scientific applications. I believe academics is going to give me the necessary flexibility. Anybody else living with same regrets, and fear of getting old to realize their dreams?
In my experience: I entered my 4-year CS program with significantly more programming experience then my peers. My senior year was the most valuable because I picked up on good theory that I can apply to real-world jobs. As a result, I can design better databases, and I better understand how to design classes. Basically, I can write larger programs with less cruft then I would if I left halfway through my education.
I always like to joke about how I took "Technology of Alpine Skiing" thinking it would be an easy course, yet I took away valuable lessons that my CS curriculum was lacking. You might find more value in interdisinplinary / marketing / management / psycology classes then you expect. These lessons will help you in a CS career.
No, I will not work for your startup
If you don't like your geographical location is there anything stopping you from relocating? I have done that three times - And I'm now a resident of another country. The first time is the hardest, after that it's not that scary.
Maybe not the most comfortable if you're in a current comfort zone, but that can be a sign you need to shake things up. And you sound bored.
Well, I am a native brit and moved to Sweden 7 years ago, so i'm not unaccustomed to relocating to other countries and learning other languages, but as we've now got a young child, I believe it would be very selfish of me to want to relocate my family again. As for the region, Malmö, part of the greater region called Öresundsregion (includes Copenhagen, Denmark) is one of three major locations in Sweden (the other 2 being Gothenburg and Stockholm). There ain't much choice in minor relocations...it would have to be an upheavel.
"Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman