Slashdot Mirror
Pressure Is On IBM To Forgive Millions In IT Debt
coondoggie writes to tell us that several California state legislators are pressuring IBM to release the Costa school district from some $5 million of long-standing debt as a charitable donation. "The back story on this tale is that the school district owes IBM for computers ordered in the late 1980s and early 1990s. For one reason or another the computers were never used and no one now seems to be able to locate either the paperwork or the hardware. The school district experienced hard financial times and ultimately never paid Big Blue for the computers. In 1993 the district and IBM negotiated a long-term settlement that said the school district would pay the first of four $1.25 million installments beginning in 2008. Payments were deferred until then because 2008 was the year the district was scheduled to finish making state loan repayments under its previous loan plan, according to the Contra Costa story."
They give the school 15 years and now the school wants it just forgiven? I wish I could wait 15 years on my loans.
coondoggie writes: to tell us that several California state legislators are pressuring IBM to release the Costa school district from some $5 million of long-standing debt as a charitable donation.
Do you mean Contra Costa?
How do you lose that much computer equipment? It must have walked off.
signed,
Epstein's Mom
Best Windows Freeware
No multi-billion dollar corporation left behind.
And obsoleted computers does not mean they should be let off their debt. I reckon I may leave everything I owe for 27 years or so then claim that.
Seriously instead of saying "let us off" they should be saying "here's your money, _please_ don't charge us interest or take us to court".
Politicians putting pressure on hardware supplier to write off legitimate debt.
Are they linking to future contracts with the state?
"But Governator, you said you'd pay!"
"I lied"
They agree to defer payments for 15 YEARS, and now that they're finally at the time they might have to actually start paying something they want to just pressure them to make it go away entirely? Yow.
Oh, so that makes it OK to rip IBM off.
Well, "honorable" lawmakers, how many of your teacher's pensions are in IBM stock?
Or what about your investments?
Or some of your other constituents - many who are retired and are relying on IBM making an actual profit in order to make money on their retirement investments.
Not all stock investors are rich, fat, white, dudes who nobody has pity for.
Mental note: Do not give credit to the CA schools - cash only.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
So, yeah, about the 5 million... well, we were kinda expecting you to forget about it ya know? Thats what friends are for, right?
On a serious note, I am surprised at no mention of paying a smaller amount or anything.. No they expect IBM to just forget about the whole thing.
...this invalidates the forgiveness part of their plea: Unaccountability encourages corruption.
"What you subsidize, you get more of".
Have the school district *try* a little harder to find out where it all went.... a good first step.
If the taxpayers het mad enough at the failure to do this, *then* you'll get some accountability, although late.
BWilde
Wow, this is amazing. They ordered computers, which were never used... shouldn't that be an outcry? That school-district must have had a terrible administration at that point. I really don't see how the argument that they never used the equipment has anything to do with why or why not they should pay the bill. Afterall, IBM delivered, so why should they not get paid?
If it wasn't for the fact that the administrators that created this mess are probably all not working there anymore, I'd say they should pay the full amount, with interest, as punishment for wasting the taxpayers dollars!
Neither the paperwork or hardware could be located? Does this mean there is no proof of delivery?
Don't waste time... procrastinate now!
On Sixty Minutes last night. This is the kind of accountability we get from our government.
Some company delivers millions worth of stuff and it just goes missing. The response from the govt is to ask to forgive and forget? For the children?
IBM should not reward this corruption.
So the school district is corrupt, and the computers got jacked, and now we want corporate America to take it as a tax write-off. I'd like to see it referred to a criminal court so the guilty actually pay the price.
technical writing / development
Of course. IBM should give away the 5m in dept. And given this wonderful opportunity, IBM should also point out to the four California state legislators, how using open standards could save them a few bucks in the future. So this district could cut some costs it obviously needs cutting.
Besides...lets say they were using the computers. How does the fact that they're missing affect whether they can pay for them? Surely the district didn't place a $5 million order with no means to pay for it?
But the things can't be found. Now granted 15 years later they would be obsolete and very well may have been dumped, but what are the chances that alternately somebody either "borrowed" a few or even resold them?
Forgiving the dept and not forcing an investigation seems to encourage negligence and corruption, indeed.
Oh Oh, lets put them in charge of health care too!
So because it's confusing & they've forgotten the details they want it forgiven ? Fine for charity but ask for it upfront. Now everyone's going to be afraid to enter into business deals with people who might be able to turn on the tears & wave the "deserving cause" flag.
to a collection agency. Let the agency buy the loan at a discount and then harrangue state officials until they ante up. It would be good for the officials to experience the same kind of pressure and hectoring that they allow consumers to endure...
The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
It's for the children!
That argument works whenever we raise your taxes or take away yet another of your rights, so it should work when ripping off IBM.
Just like the first world should cut off aid to Africa to ultimately strengthen it, corporations should cut off aid to school districts and other governmental dead beats who think technology will solve education problems.
And the school still wants a free pass.
What sort of example are they trying to set?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The school ordered and received the equipment. If they used them or not is irrelevant, and that they can't find the stuff or any records only speaks to their incompetence. They need to pay their bill.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I love that part. I wish I could just order $5M worth of computer equipment using the taxpayer's wallet and then blame IBM for being hardhearted and cruel for not forgiving the debt. Why is the media not reporting on the waste and/or fraud involved in the original contract? Obviously, computers that were never used were not "needed", since the school district is still there and is apparently serving students. Who signed the original deal and what did he/she get out of it?
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
"Unlike corporations such as IBM - with revenues of $22 billion in the first quarter of 2007 alone - our schools do not have the ability to generate new dollars to fund projects or pay for employees," the lawmakers wrote. "Our schools rely solely on limited state and federal assistance to educate our students and every dollar is precious."
If every dollar is precious, they should've thought twice before spending $5 million in hardware that was never even used!
This district's atrocious conduct is precisely the reason why IBM should not forgive the debt.
Their concept of money has never really reflected the real world. Mix that up with "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" and the school district's own inability to deal with money, and you can see where this came from, at least.
IBM has been more than fair. They are owed their money. Mistakes are made, but unless the consquences are paid they will happen again.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Meanwhile, the State of California has insisted on, and gotten, much stricter terms (including interest.)
Now, the State is suggesting that IBM should forgive their loan altogether?
Maybe, if forgiving those loans is so good an idea, the State of California should go first?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
there is no reason that a resident of another state, or even another city (taxpayers, all), should bear the burden for a bad local decision.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
How should I have punctuated that?
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
Big Blue can afford it. Nobody seems to dispute this.
The school will have difficulty paying the money back. The owed money may end up being written off anyway.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. There's a lot of pressure being applied but it's up to IBM, and IBM can benefit from this. They'll get some of the money back as a tax break, more as good PR, and this will mean more money for the school to spend education, which will benefit IBM in the long run. That, and the person who makes the decision will have a feeling of being a nice person.
Ultimately it will be better for everyone if IBM forgives the debt.
Those rabid capitalist CEOs? They work for little old ladies.
Deleted
From reading the article it sounds like the problem was one of management. It might even be a criminal problem if the equipment can't be located. Having worked with IBM on deals before (and remembering what IBM was like at that time), I'm sure it was the highest margin equipment on the market. However, just b/c the school district made a poor purchasing decision, mismanaged what it bought, and possibly permitted its theft, should not let them off the hook on a contract.
Leave the gun, take the cannoli -- Clemenza, The Godfather
as mentioned in the comment section of the network world article:
"of course, it's worth pointing out that Contra Costa County is the predominant county and tax base for the East Bay -- a sprawling set of towns/cities full of people that work in downtown San Francisco, Oakland, and Silicon Valley. It's the same county where median home prices for most of the towns are well north of $500,000.
To quote the Contra Costa website: "Due to the presence of relatively high-wage skilled jobs and relatively wealthy residents, the County achieves high rankings among all California counties on a variety of income measurements."
This isn't the story of an impoverish[ed] county begging for debt relief from an evil corporation. Move along."
Research suggests the county population is quite well off as compared to other counties. http://www.city-data.com/county/Contra_Costa_Count y-CA.html
i a.html
At what point does this cross over from "poor school district" to clever constituents trying to get out of a deal?
I doubt this would happen in, say, compton CA.http://www.city-data.com/city/Compton-Californ
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
For one reason or another the computers were never used and no one now seems to be able to locate either the paperwork or the hardware.
I don't understand something. Is there any proof that the computers were ever delivered?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
if IBM were smart, they would try to cut a deal with the CA state to buy more goods from them in exchange for forgiveness.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The basic problem is, in 1992, they got a superintendant who was going to revolutionize everything. New schools, new ways of doing things, the works.
He turned out to be a corrupt bastard, but he disappeared without ever having to pay or atone for anything, and the people who use the schools have been paying for it ever since.
The school district is broke as hell, and quite honestly, will probably go bankrupt before they pay IBM (if by 'pay' you mean 'pay in the next 50 years').
All the other comments here seem to be going 'lol pay up already', but it's not that simple. IBM should forgive the debt, and everyone should learn a lesson from this:
Don't let public institutions pay with credit. The people who make decisions are not held responsible, and thus do not make responsible decisions. They will rip you off, and rip off the people they are supposed to be representing.
1) I never heard of this "Costa School District". Contra Costa, though is real. Wow. Never thought I'd be shitting on the editors, too. I feel silly.
2) Perhaps this is the result of some coke-fueled 80's shenanigans, with pushy IBM salesmen and wimpy school administrators. Unless IBM can come up with compelte records of who ordered and signed for and installed what and when, this should be thrown out.
Surely IBM can't be saying that they don't have complete records! That's their business! Maybe they should have stored it in some sort of trusty mainframe.
Reminds me of fiascoes of crushing debt of 3rd-world countries. The West had no business cutting deals with the usually inept, often brutal governments in power at the time. Some sort of conscience not "close the deal at any cost" should have won out. And expecting the countries to pay this ill-gotten debt decades after the dictators and idiots have been stripped of their power is galling.
Which reminds of the stories I used to read of how the Japanese would take out home loans and the banks would contractually expect the children to pay it off once they grew up long after the parents were dead.
Which reminds me of the "aid relief" the West gave to some Tsunami communities, like irregular down jackets and wool sweaters. They have warehouses of crap they couldn't use, though some mothers tried to cut stuff up to use as diapers. Companies got the credit/tax break all the same.
Which reminds me of how terrible and pervasive corruption is, and usually the people who pay the price are the ones at the bottom of the ladder. In this case, students.
I say IBM makes them pay, but actually gives them $5 million of useful services and supplies.
Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, losing the documents and misplacing the hardware. Until now. This summer, one man wages a solo war against confused and incompetent administration in schools. You'll laugh, you'll cry. You'll mostly cry.
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
I don't understand something. Is there any proof that the computers were ever delivered?
:) It certainly isn't IBM's fault if the school district was disorganized.
I bet IBM has proof.
Lessee, the school district has such lousy financial controls that they can't account for the systems, and they can't pay for them. Typically, the socialist argument is to not hold them accountable. I say bankrupt the district and put some people in who won't let $5M get STOLEN.
I bet IBM has proof. :) It certainly isn't IBM's fault if the school district was disorganized.
Given that, why didn't they offer this proof when the newspaper called, thus making the whole thing a moot point?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
is make them pay, and then donate the money to a school district in another state.
Mostly I just want more information about this story. Is it reported anywhere else? What kind of computers are we talking about? What was the original value claimed?
I think that the "paperwork" in question is the internal tracking and auditing that goes with purchase. who and where and when it was allocated for such and such a purpose. This is not the reciept they are speaking of I am sure.
First of all, I betcha IBM isn't as sloppy with their paper work.
Apart from that, the school has negotiated a long-term repayment plan with IBM, indicating that they accept the responsibility.
Hey, what about the little guy who can't afford to repay. Is debt forgiveness only for big, important players who can say, "But think of the children!"
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
West Contra Costa County School District was so poorly managed, financially, that up until maybe last year, that district was under California State control. I forget the exact title of the person they place in charge of the district, but they manage the books/district until the district is on solid ground, and then turn it back over to the locals. That district also includes many low income neighborhoods. Basically, that district is broke. It doesn't mean they should get a free ride, but the whole story wasn't being told either.
Ah, I see, I'm being too autistic again. I took "no one" in the article to mean they had asked *BOTH* the school district and IBM where the paperwork or hardware was, and that "no one" had any clue.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I want to see the names and photos of the people responsible.
What bites about this and so many other cases is we don't have the names of the people involved. In this case, losing the paperwork for a multi-million dollar purchase, at that, a contract, beggars belief. "Well, who did you see it with last?"
Whether it's the Costa School District, the RIAA, a retailer or your favorite Government Department, no one steps up to the plate and says "This was my call and if you have a beef with that, take it up with me!" No one pushes them either, since they're counting on similar support when they screw up. At best you'll see companies throwing some arrogant no-name lawyer to read a PR release, while the executives behind the decision drive home safe in the knowledge no one else knows the evil they do. (BTW the RIAA is really four record companies who use the RIAA moniker as their Mr. Hyde persona: EMI, Sony BMG, Universal, Warner. RIAA suing some kid isn't news. SONY suing them would be.
How about a web site listing unpopular, stupid or evil decisions along with the photos and names of the people responsible?
If I read this correctly the state waited for the school system to finish paying off a loan from the state before asking IBM to forgive a different loan? Charity starts at home and that goes for California as well. If California is so happy to help the school system out why not refund the loan payments the school system made to the state?
Unless I misunderstood the story, it seems that the same state authorities that ensured the school made all it's state loan payments, "2008 was the year the district was scheduled to finish making state loan repayments under its previous loan plan", now wants IBM to not get their agreed payments? This is somewhat conceited I think. Don't worry about large prior debts, so long as you pay the state what you owe.
I expect this kind of behavior out of socialist states like Venezuela, Brazil, and the People's Republic of California. Which is one of the reasons I emigrated from CA to the Free State of New Hampshire.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
I attended that school district back in the early 90s when these problems were building up. What basically happened from my recollection is the new superintendent of the school district started spending lots of money on courses, equipment and teachers. All good for us students but after a few years of this suddenly the school district was deeply in debt. When we graduated in 1991 we were more concerned that the district would stay open so we could get our diplomas.
The students in our class got a good deal out of the situation with lots of language classes such as latin, italian, french, etc. The new PS/2 systems from IBM were also great as that was the only way I could access a computer of that capability.
Personally I think the tax payers in that school district should pay up for their own mistakes.
"Unlike corporations such as IBM - with revenues of $22 billion in the first quarter of 2007 alone - our schools do not have the ability to generate new dollars to fund projects or pay for employees," the lawmakers wrote. "Our schools rely solely on limited state and federal assistance to educate our students and every dollar is precious."
Oh really? It sure feels like our local school district (in CA) is generating new dollars every single time an election rolls around with yet another round of school bond measures. Perhaps the bondholders can be pressured into following IBM's plan - 15-year interest-free loans - so my property taxes can go back down.
I think they should donate about 10000 copies of Ubuntu Linux. Everybody knows the value of each copy is $699.
As with all funny money taxes, the money will come from somewhere. Be it from the district's coffers, or state funds for transportation, the money will be paid. That is how politics work. My guess is a committee under budget will pay for it to ensure their next year's budget won't shrink. In any event, the citizens of the state of California (of which I belong) will just add it to our taxes. Either that, or they could relieve IBM of 5 million in tax debt.
Of course, its not Contra Costa County that owes the money, but the West Contra Costa County School District, which does not include the wealthier areas of the county that are responsible for much of the overall statistics the comment quoted by the parent refers to. The area in the WCCUSD has substantially higher poverty and lower average incomes than Contra Costa County as a whole.
The big question I would add to this.. who ended up with them?
If no one can find the paperwork or hardware, it would not surprise me if someone had used the schools purchasing system to resell some hardware for lining their own pockets.
So I am curious why they are not doing a bit of a legal investigation here. As far as we know, it could have been the IBM sale's rep who was involved.
I actually worked with a number of counties in California in the mid to late 80's. At the time I worked for a large systems integration vendor that was implementing a statewide system that impacted each of the counties.
... pick your metaphor. These hardware vendors were slick, quick talking and promised the world. This was almost 20 years ago and technology decisions were much more decentralized and the buyers were *much* less sophisticated.
It was not a pretty sight. While the vast majority of county employees were *trying* hard to do a good job - their working with the large hardware vendors was like shooting fish in a barrel, clubbing baby seals
I saw loading docks full of "client server systems". When we asked what they were going to be used for the answer was "client server systems" - they were purchased with literally no idea of what was going to run on them or who was going to run it. When talking to the IBM guys their general attitude was "Can you believe it? Isn't life great!".
I agree that stupid decisions were made here. I am also certain that this is at least partly the responsibility of the vendor for taking advantage of a naive buyer or buyers.
So, by that vain I can forget about the RIAA and MPAA? I didn't have a job when I downloaded those torrents, and had no way of generating the income needed to enjoy the works I downloaded. Hey, I'm not a recording industry who can raise millions in a week!
The lesson from this school system is: It's okay to steal if you don't have a job.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Not entirely true. This *is* the story of an impoverished school district begging for debt relief from a corporation. (I won't comment if their request is justified or not).
Contra Costa County is broken up into Multiple School Districts. This story is about the West Contra Costa School District, which serves communities such as Richmond & San Pablo. I don't know specifics off the top of my head, but it is one of the poorest school districts in California.
Contra Costa County is a tale of two counties. Eastern Contra Costa County is as you described, with many wealthy suburbs, wealthy inhabitants and well-funded schools. This is the image that Contra Costa County would like to promote on it's website.
Western Contra Costa County is much poorer, with poorly funded schools & high crime rates. Richmond has a disturbing level of corruption in the government. Compare these two cities:
* RichmondWalnut CreekAbout 1.7% of families and 3.7% of the population were below the poverty line
I travel in both areas of Contra Costa Country regularly, and I'm always amazed at the difference. Walnut Creek has beautiful, clean schools located close to grass-covered golden hills. Many Richmond schools have a ton of graffiti, broken windows, boarded-up buildings, etc. Several times a year, schools in the parts of the Western Contra Costa County School district go into 'lockdown' mode due to leaks at the nearby chemical plants or oil refineries. Drive by shootings happen near the schools. In Richmond, you can hear gunshots just about every night.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
As a condition for "forgiving" this debt, this school district should have to implement the Microsoft-approved IBM/Suse/Novell version of Linux (this is a great punishment, it is very ancient compared to modern Linux!).
I have for a long time failed to understand the concept behind school fundraising (I'm not talking about fundraising for extracurricular activities. I'm talking about bake sales to buy library books and the like for public schools). The school district is part of the government. It is funded by taxes. I'm a silicon valley homeowner, and that means I pay an awful lot of taxes that are aimed in the direction of various local school districts (I'm even willing to cede that I get a benefit from it despite having no kids). If there was a need for more money for my local school, I'm pretty sure my first reaction would be to find out where all the money is going, not find ways to throw more money at it.
The school owes IBM money and California farmers are paying higher prices for farm labor because of the border crack down. I say have the school send all the kids out to harvest lettuce and have their wages go to pay back IBM. They even have school buses to drive them out to the fields. Might have to chain them together so they don't wander off and get lost and we could make their parents buy them little orange jumpsuits so we could spot them if they tried running off.
The farmers get cheap labor, IBM gets its money and the kids all learn to swing a lettuce knife with deadly accuracy before they get to high school. Okay, a few of them will lose fingers, maybe hack a little arm off. Bo-ho liberal whiners. Here's a bandaid. It's a win-win-win for everyone.
If it works out we could start renting them out to companies doing asbestos remediation, hauling trash, put them to work in shoe factories and get those back in the US again! Then we could take all that money they're making and role back the property taxes for all us old people.
This is brilliant! Brilliant I tell ya!
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
service, Unix boxes, mainframes, etc. PCs were but one small part.
If they were really smart, they would create a new form of diskless workstations using PowerPC and create a school and office distro. Then have the district AND state buy X number of them. Getting CA to buy 100 million worth of true low-costs network computer set-ups (combined with servers) is a VERY good use of that money. Think of it as Marketing costs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Thats what I'll say to my creditors when they come a knocking. Imagine the lost income that $5 million could have produced over 15 years. I tell you what, it's pretty obvious why people are in so much debt when the schools can't even manage their own, what are they supposed to teach the students, the future debt holders of tomorrow? Just buy buy buy and then worry about the implications later. Take 'em to court IBM. That's what I'd want you to do if I was a shareholder, in fact I'd see it as your duty to me.
Of course you are...
What they most likely will do is offer California Republic Inc to pay an advance of 30 million for consulting services
with the obligation to render them becoming void after say five years and the gentleman understanding not to call IBM on the
contract.
I live in Contra Costa and given the tax base here, the whole idea that the school district needs charity instead of a state or federal supervisor and some honest auditing is just ludicrous.
What I don't get is how Loni Hancock and Don Perata come into play. The last time I checked, both Berkeley and Oakland are part of Alameda County, not Contra Costa. Now if anyone wants to argue that downtown Oakland and Richmond schools are ripe for charitable donations, I'd be all for it.
our schools do not have the ability to generate new dollars to fund projects or pay for employees
Gee, why do my taxes go up whenever the school board wants my money?
Not only does the school district have the ability to raise new money, they have the ability to do so with the full force of the law.
That's just great ... The Contra Costa school wants IBM to forgive a $5,000,000.00 debt from the 80's - 90's, but trying to get my credit union to forgive the remainder (~$500.00) of a $1,500.00 loan I've defaulted on is near impossible. In fact, they said, "No." Wonderful. Again, as always, it's the little people that pay. My income last year was less than $6,000.00. Yes, you read that correctly. I've lived below the poverty level here in the great state of Maine for two years running now. You'd think the local credit union in Lewiston would forgive that balance under this extenuating circumstance. Instead, they had a judge place a lein against my POS 1991 truck, which is rusting away as I type, so that should I sell it (book value is currently $675.00) they get their money. What a great place to live.
why didn't they offer this proof when the newspaper called
The article never stated that they tried and failed to get proof from IBM. I read it that the school district's administration can find no paperwork. If IBM has no proof, then the school board is golden. All they have to do is refuse to pay and force IBM into court to prove its case. IBM did not become a multi billion dollar company by losing the paperwork on a $5 million dollar deal. IBM will have the contract, the purchase orders, the delivery manifest, everything.
I have no idea how it ended up that way, it's in norcal, not an area that is known for lacking money exactly.
So when you're place of employment is going tits up, it's not uncommon for the inmates to start taking more liberties. It's not right and it doesn't help the situation but we already know that this school district didn't have the best or most ethical management. I know a guy who took something like $50k in networking hardware when his ISP employer started to die, he just packed up hardware and took it home. I wouldn't at all be surprised if teachers and administrators all got new computers at home in 1990ish when their paychecks started becoming less reliable.
I'm guessing test scores went up and drug use among students went down during that time too and they produced a lot of lawyers and doctors and senators during that time too.
if you're local school districts cannot manage money folks, bitch and get involved before it's too late. It's not pretty when they bankrupt. Basically, if they cannot afford something, make sure it is really damn necessary before they take out a loan on it, if they cannot save up money to afford a new building, how are they going to afford the loan? A school with old equipment, buildings, and no cable TV is WAY better than no school or a bankrupt school. One district in my state bankrupted and teachers just abandoned their jobs... Kids showed up but there were no teachers.
I'd like to see the invoice for the original equipment. Might it have been $1 million worth of end of life hardware and $4 million worth of OS/2 and DB2 licenses?
Let someone willing to take the negative publicity deal with the school district.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Since everyone is asking if there is proof that CC even had the computers: ----------------- http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_5727158 "I think they were out of date before (Marks) even decided to buy them," Basalto said. "Every one of them was obsolete; they were absolutely useless." Where the computers ended up also is a mystery. Basalto recalls that some were installed in schools, but some sat in warehouses, possibly never turned on. The district tried to return some of the computers, said Ruth Vedovelli, West Contra Costa school district's current finance chief. IBM refused to take them back, leading to a years-long fight that also included battles over the actual cost. Negotiations often got ugly, with Fred Stewart, the state trustee appointed to oversee the district's finances after it went into debt in 1990, often getting into shouting matches with IBM representatives, says Herb Cole, Marks' successor. "He said, 'We can't pay you, so if you want them, come and get them,'" Cole said, adding that Stewart threatened to put the computers on the curb. "He was tough as nails with them at the time." ----------------- So the computers were received. Judging from the timing, its no surprise that the computers were obsolete with a few years. How many schools bought top of the line machines trying to stay on par with obsolecense back in the late 80s? Figure 2 or more years of bickering back and forth with IBM, hitting bankruptcy, the systems taking up needed space in a warehouse, begging for money from the state, etc. The computers were probably put up for auction when they went into bankruptcy. Or donated to take a deduction / contribution somewhere. Or just flat out disposed / gotten rid of to get rid of the storage cost.
really is? Every school district that I have had the "pleasure" of working with has had some form of financial fuck up to deal with. Whether it was the head of the district awarding huge networking contracts to next door neighbors, bribery, large scale theft, stupid investments in overpriced under performing unneeded software/hardware or certain OS manufactures throwing their weight around ( see previous statement). There NEVER EVER seems to be any punishment or accountability for the FUCKING waste of money. And what do we get? Morons graduated that can't spell comment let alone put any meaningful ones in their code, but goto that they can spell.
But I know lets just raise a bond or property taxes some more and piss more money down the rat hole that has become the American public education system.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
IBM could release the district from the debt at these conditions: 1. Use only IBM software/hardware 2. Pay cash only 3. Public detailed reports about IT investments
Blame Canada!
I think IBM shouldn't simply forgive the debt and at least pester someone else, such way that schools funding will not be jeopardized. Given the school's bookkeeping practices should be given a hard look and thorough evaluation, so such thing doesn't happen again.
Schooling is one of the foundations of the society. Of course this is only one school, IBM shouldn't make precedent, that it is ok to bankrupt schools if they lead shoddy accounting practices. The school was a bad customer, but there is more to the school then a purchaser of electronic hardware bits. It is responsible for the future of the nation.
IBM should champion the change, forcing a retrofit to such shoddy accounting practices, not try collect money any way possible.
imo,
p
So if I don't use my computer I could get my pay forgiven? Nice!
ghostbar page.
If you grant the government the power to borrow or inflate only in time of war, you'll get perpetual war. And if it's not a war against other nations, it will be a war against some social problem, or maybe terrorism or something. Hey, wait a minute...
That's the last time I run code posted in somebody's sig...
If Contra Costra really wanted to try to weasel out of this, they should have tried to do it quietly behind the scenes, because for IBM to forgive this debt so publicly would cause many other customer of IBM to smell weakness and try the same move.
Here's the problem, if IBM doesn't forgive the debt, they look like jerks. They need to turn this into a PR tool. Don't forgive the debt, but promise that upon payment it will be distributed amongst the top 10 most improved public schools in the state.
They're not profiting off of this, so they're the good guys. Plus, they teach that school district that the residents need to care about their local government and school officials.
i tried to explain to California that i hate them and moved to a much better state, so stop sending me registration tax bills for cars that not only don't i own any more (its amazing what $250,000 in liquid assets feels like) and registered the week i got into the new state.
but even tho i don't need "forgiveness" - i'd take it all the same.
i wonder if i'll get it?
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Free sex change and pro-gay mental counseling for all county workers on taxpayers money. Illegal aliens welcome and we give you free (oxymoron) taxpayer funded health care. Military not welcome because we hate George Bush with such a passion that we don't give a shit if the military goal in the middle east is good for the long term security of America. No school military recruitment, no Blue Angels flying overhead bringing in $200k extra revenue. No pledge of allegiance in our schools. We pledge compliance to the UN and Pelosi.
Regardless of religious beliefs, your personal opinion does not matter if you work for the county. You will be fired for saying that gays don't fit within Darwin theories. We don't care if the sight of two ugly men kissing in the hallway shrivels your sphincter naturally. Everyone knows that Gays magically procreate and its not mental. Nature likes a vaccum and there is a gay gene yet to be found.
Fuck the Bay area. Look for the Navy to close shop just like the Army did. IBM, make those idiots pay. You owe it to your shareholders.
Ex-Bay straight resident who was tired of all the pro-homo, anti-family nonsense (no I don't hate, I just beleive in science and common sense).
All that being said, I still think that the district should pay the debt. The question is, where will the money come from?
Organ farming?
From the school board, of course.
And since we're on year five of no increases and shipping as many jobs as possible out of the country, the 5 mil will get split among the top execs as yet more performance bonuses.
Sam Palmisano paid himself $37 million dollars last year. Let him eat the loss personally if he wants to look like a hero.
Yeah great idea. The state wastes money on something it never uses (no surprise there), now they want IBM to write it off, costing federal taxes, which then gets paid by me.
fuckers
I've been at my job for 20 years, I remember things we purchased back in 1987, I bet if they TRIED they could find people who remember the what happened with the purchase 15 years back (and being it was for $5 million dollars I would think most people would have no problem with something that big.)
Who cares if it is a new board, they signed on knowing they'd have to handle situations like this, I think as a constituent I would want a better answer from them besides, "um, we can't find the paperwork or what happened to those computers."
My last rant, (being as I work for a state/federal funded non-profit) where were the auditors on this in the last 14 years? NPs go though an annual audit by CPAs, even moreso with the funding sources they have. If they 'lost' the $5 million of equipment somewhere along those lines, would it not have shown up somewhere on the books? Fixed Assets? Somewhere?
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
The upshot is that the shipper has the right to unload the goods on your sidewalk and walk away if you are being difficult. Obviously, they'd do all sorts of CYA stuff to document their actions - and this sort of ultimate action is never good for business. But in the end, the innocent third party has the right to walk away without burden (providing the shipping order doesn't place restrictions on the delivery. "Must be kept frozen" overrides "I waited five whole minutes for them to empty the freezer and then dropped the goods on the burning sidewalk."
It may be that you legally have the right to return the goods. But, you need to be careful about who has possession the goods, and have proof of transfer of possession.
"The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
I wonder if the Contra Costa School District wrote off the depreciation of this capital equipment over the ten years?
"The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
People who modded this informative didn't do their research. Although it's true CCC as a whole is a fairly wealthy area, the article in question appears to be talking about WCCCSD, in areas like Richmond. There is a Night/Day difference between, say Lafayette/Moraga/Orinda and Richmond. Kids can play in the streets past dark in the former, I'm afraid to walk the streets at night in the latter. I also infer from several other comments that the WCCCSD was mismanaged years ago. So please, stop with the "this is a rich disctrict that can afford to pay" comments based on information on the county as a whole. It's a non-sequitur.
-- "This world is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel."
... that $3 million of the $5 million that the school district absconded with is being taken from the pockets of retired or soon-to-be-retired working Americans. (Sorry, old rhetorical trick I picked up in college to deflate the balloons of folks who liked to make every issue into The Class Struggle. Most billion dollar companies, once you trace through the intermediaries like pensions and mutual funds, as a series of thousand dollar chunks. Many of the owners or beneficiaries of these chunks would not strike you as being very wealthy, or even as being investors, if you were to bump into them in the checkout at the supermarket.)
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Notice who gets the largest chunk.
Obviously, a County can fund things however they want. But I'd be surprised if the ratio was 20% different.
"The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
IBM knows where they delivered the equipment... IBM doesn't know what happened to it after it was delivered.
Send in the National Guard followed by the Marines to set up an interim military administration. Then call on the UN to supervise elections. Anybody else know a better way to clean up this unbelievable mess?
Absolute nonsense:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
U.S. Constitution: Article I
IBM should just haul them into court. If the school district had such bad financial problems why did it enter into a contract with big blue? Not only would the bankruptcy case serve as a warning to school districts that buy computers instead of teachers, it would also unleash the supena power of the court to get to the bottom of who made the contract and what happened to the machines.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
and make sure the deal involves Linux and OSS. They may go kicking and screaming but in 2-3 years, they'll thank you and probably buy IBM services with the extra cash saved from all the OS and apps licensing fees they would not be sending to Microsoft. There's a win for ODF in there too.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
That's not really that relevant. By asking IBM to convert the debt into a "gift", they are acknowledging the debt.
It's bullshit that the school district would make a public display that puts IBM in a bad light for gross, possibly criminal mismanagement on their part. In New York, school administrators were caught stealing millions from districts once the State Comptroller was given the authority to audit the books.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Here in New Zealand, I notice it often. A Samoan family moved here 7 years ago, the mother was a school teacher and she got sick, the family of 4+ was quite "hard up" and with just one income earner the bills stacked up. The mother was on a respirator, at home, and the power company turned off the power on them, they owed about NZD$160 dollars at the point with more than $400 to be paid back within a month. The mother died and they say its because they didnt have power.
The hospital that gave the woman the equipment said that she wouldnt need it 24/7, if she was in such bad health she would have still been in hospital. They said how she would have needed it less than 2 hours a day if at all. The never gave any more news interviews about that fact again.
There have been all sorts of protests and complaints, petitions etc filed against the power company. There were some calling the contractor who cut the power cable a murderer and that he should do time.
Our Prime Minister visited, the power company CEOS gave over ten thousand dollars towards the funeral, which the family wasnt going to use for the funeral, new car or something no doubt on the way, and theres been a huge uproar about "evil companies just caring about profit". I hope this doesnt happen for IBM on this issue, they deserve to be paid no matter how well off they are.
Now the power company has sent out letters to all its customers saying "we are sorry and we are changing our policies, if you are about to have your power turned off please ring this number" and talk of how companies will be regulated to make them give the poor-er people so much cheap power a month etc. Its just crazy.
---
Considering typical bureaucratic behavior, they probably sat in a warehouse while different administrators argued over how to deploy them, until they were forgotten and obsolete.
IBM has already done the school district a favor by not selling their debt to a vulture credit company that would be way more heinous in how it dealt with the district. Normally when loans like this start taking longer than usual to get their money, companies like IBM write off the debt and sell it to vulture funds for pennies on the dollar, and then these vulture funds turn around and gauge the debtors for as much as they can get.
So the fact that IBM did NOT do this means they have a heart. Don't be stupid and keep on asking for more. IBM is a business, and if they let this customer go, they would simply have more problems in the future.
There is mercy and there is justice. And there is ridiculous.
;).
The next time I order stuff from IBM it's fine for me to lose the stuff and then get 15 years to pay back, and in the end not have to pay at all?
Wow that's nice.
OK who signed receipt of the hardware? If there's official documentation proving that a valid person from the school took receipt of the goods, then the school should get the pain.
If it's just some school-kid's signature, then too bad IBM
What I find so curious about this, is government asking a business to go easy on a school. In Australia, because we have government run schools, the government would be the one to purchase the computer equipment and therefore the school would be left to, well, teach! Instead of being distracted by huge bills hanging over their heads and potentially compromising the quality of the tuition given to students.
You guys really need to stop fearing the services that could be possibly provided by your governments, like education, health cover (not insurance), but free health etc.
And before you go on the whole anti-socialist rant etc, remember that it is not free, in fact you are paying for it with your taxes, you should ask yourself, what exactly you pay taxes for, if not to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. Our system is similar to that of Britain, Canada, France and others.
The 925 kind of has the "soulless suburban sprawl" thing going on... at least once you get past Lafayette anyway. To this day, I'm still not sure when and where exactly I'm in Walnut Creek vs. Pleasant Hill vs. Concord vs. Martinez. It's just a little bit TOO "perfect". It actually kind of creeps me out a little bit, especially at night. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a hellmouth under there somewhere.
But it's definitely affluent... VERY affluent. This isn't East Oakland we're talking about here.
Not that they deserve to be ripped off though, just for being wealthy... nor even for being on the wrong side of the "Real City Folk" vs. "Bridge and Tunnelers" rivalry. (Funny thing is... quite a lot of people I know who LIVE in CC have a 415 number for their cell. For the kids, it's trendy. For business types.. it's the difference between "415 == San Francisco" and "925 == whereTheFuckIsThat?".)
But it sure doesn't look like IBM is the bad guy here. In fact, they've been *more* than generous with the terms of repayment.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
IBM would have no need to prove they delivered anything. They already have a settlement/agreement to make repayment. As such the school district has already admitted that they owe IBM $5 million. It's too late to start arguing that they never received the goods.
To tell you the truth Contra Costa County sucks!! My mom worked for the college district here too and all I can say is those computers where there at one point and somehow they all disapeared... lol yeah the employees and officials were snatching them, hell I snagged some parts later on too. I remember them in the classrooms at one point, and then they were gone and replaced with Imacs. Later mostly dells came in mixed with old Imacs, those ibm comps are good as gone. Alot of them stolen and most in storage somewhere or sold over seas.
It just occured to me now that $5Million if written off allows a lot of people "off the hook" but on the other hand, can you imagine how many QUALITY linux/FOSS software coders that money could buy. I'm not looking to be a troll but it could benefit a lot more people than some school district that wants to flop on a contract.
;)
As to the other question, some tech guy prolly has all these 486s in his shed
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
This is good. Schoold should teach children that begging actually works. No need to pay the debts nomatter how high they are. Thought it seems difficult to grasp, it can be taught easily by example.
that they DIDN'T send the computers or that they lost them...
I'm amazed people are arguing against IBM in this case. This seems fairly straightforward: If you buy something, you have to pay for it. The only reason people are heaping on IBM is because of knee-jerk anti-corporatism.
It's the same people that took the NASA tapes.
Depending on the date of the actual deal, IBM has lost $5-10 million due to inflation, add in their willingness to not charge interest so there's no hope of recouping that. We're already seeing a 67% discount on those computers. The district agreed to pay, it's had 15 years to prepare to pay this debt, why should IBM forgive this debt? It would set an FANTASTICALLY BAD precedent.
Screw Contra Costa's PR offensive and those who voted in the article poll that IBM *should* forgive the debt.
Cheers!
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
From left to right (All expenses, Total Ed Amount, Total Ed %, Elementary Amount, Elementary %, College Amount, College %, Other Amount, Other %):
California is 7th, 14th, 39th, 11th, 27th, 24th, 39th, 30th, 35th.
For me, the priorities of a budget are exposed in the percentages: California ranks 39th, 27th, 39th, 35th.
Even when considering the actual amounts (14th, 11th, 24th, 30th), such rankings are far from being "top 5".
On the topic of forgiveness: if they eventually agreed to a settlement, then both parties should live up to that settlement. It looks like the district wants to renegotiate, but complete forgiveness doesn't seem like an appropriate offer after a settlement.
This is not my sig
Similar stuff happened in New Paltz, NY. The district "lost" a couple million bucks, and dismissed the superintendent with some insane "separation bonus," in the 'hood of $2Million more.
Public schools are routinely run by scoundrels and thieves whose mission is, to them, to bilk the state and federal budgets for as much money as they can while providing only as much service to the students as is required by law.
All I require is a 15-year interest free loan of 5M. If I invest that in an S&P500 index, I should have 17.5M at the end of the 15 years, assuming similar performance to the last 15 years (I'm not counting the fat quarterly dividends). I will then gladly write IBM a check for 5M and pocket the rest.
IBM should collect. The school went broke because they gave platinum-plated pensions and medical benefits to their workers. They didn't "hit hard economic times." They hit reality.
Every dollar they don't have to pay is one more ill-gotten dollar the unions will get.
when you're place of employment is going tits up
"your", "tits-up".
if you're local school districts
"If your".
Especially to government entities. A $5M write-off to IBM is at, the marginal corporate tax rate in CA of 39.4% Federal, and 8.84% state, $2.4M in revenue the government has to get elsewhere.
Should the other 49 states have to pony up $1.97M, and the rest of CA $442K, even if IBM bears the rest of the burden of these bufoons?
I think not.