Obvious is obvious. Now, if I'd have said something naturally subjective like 'common sense,' I'd be singing a different tune. But if a child can tell you something is wrong and why, then I shouldn't have to waste breathe explaining it to an adult.
That's nice in theory, but won't really work.
FTFY.
Sure you won't have many people fighting over whether or not we need laws against murder. But I can find you people who would tell you we "obviously" need anti-drug laws.
A more pragmatic approach might be to have 2 ways to get rid of automatic sunset provisions:
1st, a supermajority such as 75% when the law is initially passed 2nd, after X renewals (probably 3) it stops requiring renewal.
Anything as obvious as laws prohibiting murder should have no problem passing close to unanimously.
Sounds like a fair compromise. Guess this means neither of us will be running for office?
Or, and I'm just spitballing here, don't do any of that. Instead, use persuasive arguments to convince people to follow your will instead of trying to impose it via violence or threat of violence. Or even, if what you want people do do is legal to pay people to do, try that.
Quite the damning condemnation of American government you've posted there, considering their policy is, apparently, to lead with violence.
Tell you what: how about we go ahead and have that debate, and anyone who tries to argue that, say, murder laws are non-obvious, gets the word 'SOCIOPATH' hot-branded onto their foreheads?
... and no, the irony of that statement is not lost on me; much to the contrary, I find it quite amusing.
Ah, I see - you chose to take their post literally.
I chose to assume the caveat "Except the obvious shit" to apply.
I was being facetious. But when you add the "Except the obvious shit" caveat you then introduce "who gets to decide what is obvious".
Oh, c'mon now.
No, really.
Tell you what: how about we go ahead and have that debate, and anyone who tries to argue that, say, murder laws are non-obvious, gets the word 'SOCIOPATH' hot-branded onto their foreheads?
Obvious is obvious. Now, if I'd have said something naturally subjective like 'common sense,' I'd be singing a different tune. But if a child can tell you something is wrong and why, then I shouldn't have to waste breathe explaining it to an adult.
Perhaps we can all agree "I support sunset clauses on bad laws!" and be done with it?
Huh? That makes no sense. So, basically, you're saying that it takes more time to buy (or not buy) a car someone built than it would take for you to engineer and build a car yourself. That's nuts, yo.
Quite obviously, no. In bigpat's OP they stated that: "There really should be sunset provisions on all laws." This is clearly nonsensical. Or would you argue that there should be sunset provisions on the laws against murder?
Ah, I see - you chose to take their post literally.
I chose to assume the caveat "Except the obvious shit" to apply.
Ha, what a trip! $1500 for an LCD panel ($2400 if you opt for the 5 year anti-vandalism warranty)? Proves the old adage, 'a fool and his money are soon parted.'
Really, if you absolutely had to memorialize someone that way, you'd be better off buying one of those $20 commercial digital photo frames, wiring it to a solar panel, and drilling a couple mounting screws into the stone monument (which would have the added advantage of removable parts, since something will eventually fail).
I also suspect there's a better chance of one of my e-books still existing in 2,000 years than one of my paperbacks.
Then you have far more faith in digital storage media than I. FWIW, to this day they're digging up perfectly preserved, 2,000 year old scrolls in Mesopotamia. Your electronics will not last that long, and one good, solid solar flare is all it would take to completely wipe out all digitally stored media the world over.
I doubt either will, but the paperback is more likely to become ash in a house fire or mush in a flood than the file.
If you store them properly, then yes, the paperback books will still exist in 2,000 years. The e-books on your Kindle? Well, if you turn it off RIGHT NOW there might be a few read/write cycles left by that point in time, but the leakage from the battery will have rendered the entire thing a useless lump of minerals long before, no matter how well you store it.
So, someone has invented a cheap digital data storage method that will last thousands of years?
There's a reason tombstones are still big-ass etched stones, and not digital displays, you know.
Gosh, you might just have stumbled on the next big thing.
You know these annoyingly bright, giant, color led displays along the highway? Imagine that integrated into a tombstone, showing the dearly departed smiling and waiving and if someone walks by, serving them with some ads: "Don't do what I did. Call a qualified electrician."
I can appreciate any innovation that makes reality more like an episode of Futurama.
Er, no. Sunset clauses are a terrible waste of government time. Just think about it - if every law you pass gets a sunset clause, that means cumulatively over time you're spending a bigger and bigger portion of your time renewing previous laws to make them still active.
Huh? That makes no sense.
So, basically, you're saying that it takes more time to buy (or not buy) a car someone built than it would take for you to engineer and build a car yourself. That's nuts, yo.
No, sunset clauses are easy to deal with; it goes down like this:
Senator Bob: Hey, this law is in sunset phase. Was it a good idea, and do we want to keep it, yea or nay?
As opposed to months of 'closed doors' meetings, secret deals with lobbyists, writes and re-writes and re-re-writes, etc.
You end up with situations like the US "fiscal cliff"
That had nothing to do with sunsetting laws, and everything to do with the fact that our Congress is made up of, essentially, narcissistic 5th graders.
Cellulose is the only way to go. One of the most promising sources is switch grass, which can be grown on much more marginal land, and pretty much re-plants itself (due to deep roots).
I've heard similar things about hemp, with the added benefit of hemp being useful for more than 1 thing.
Lifted from Sanity, he suggests, is "when a person is adaptable and satiable, capable of realistic planning and empathizing with his fellow beings." In the book, he expands on these traits: flexibility -- to be able to change your opinion or course of action, if shown clear evidence you were wrong. satiability -- the ability to feel satisfaction if you actually get what you said you wanted, and to transfer your strivings to other goals. extrapolation -- an ability to realistically assess the possible consequences of your actions and to empathize, or guess how another person might think or feel.
Huh.. so I live in a world populated mainly by insane people...
So, someone has invented a cheap digital data storage method that will last thousands of years?
No, but someone has invented something cheap that stops working when it gets rained on and can't be repaired when you damage it.
A hard drive? Oh, no, you said cheap.
There's a reason tombstones are still big-ass etched stones, and not digital displays, you know.
And there's also a good reason they aren't made of paper.
... as well as a good reason why the information plate bolted to the side of the Voyager probe isn't made of paper, either.
Look, I ain't saying that paper is the be-all-end-all of communication methods; I'm just pointing out that anyone who thinks digital electronics will be a replacement for paper anytime in the near future is dreaming of pipes.
TL;DR version: sure, paper might suck, but digital storage sucks more.
Add in a wifi module, and the developer kits for your mobiles, and learn to program your mobile, write a web service, and the arduino/pi with it's limited C subset (and the module quirks). So for $200 + those, you've saved what over the $300 nest?
Unless the nest comes complete with remote sensors for the different zones, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
Also, as someone else pointed out, a $60 BeagleBone Black covers the electronics. So, really, the DIY setup is ~$40 for sensors, ~$60 for control, and $25 for wiring - we'll say $150 total to give a little wiggle room.
I don't know why you think there needs to be a wifi module for a system that's hard-wired into the house; I guess because the Nest has one? Well, that's another advantage to the roll-your-own version - no icky, insecure wireless junk to worry about.
As for the programming, you act like there aren't massive communities, both online and off, filled with people who like to help each other build funky things with CC-PCs and consumer microcontrollers.
There are. LOTS of them, actually.
So, not only would you save ~$100, you'd also have a much more extensive system then what the Nest gives you, and an opportunity to be a part of something interesting.
Oh, and something that's under your complete control, a feature I in particular find appealing.
How difficult is it to install another version of Android on devices like this? I would love to use something like this as a console-on-the-go, but would hate to deal with advertising crap while I'm trying to do work.
Minimum wage is not enough for a single person to live alone. They would have to choose between food or a roof over their head.
I won't disagree with that, because it's true, but my point is that's what the minimum wage is supposed to provide: the minimum amount of fiscal security necessary for a single person living alone to survive on. Age nor education status have anything to do with it, as OP contended.
and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
OK so assuming a 4 zone setup, you're looking at $40 for the sensor, let's say another $100 for the Ardiuno/Pi setup, and I'm going to guestimate no more than $25 in wire and other supplies... less than $200 total.
Not too shabby if you have the know-how and time to build and code it.
Compared to traditional multizone monitoring solutions with installation? Yes, it's cheap.
Touche.
Ever consider rolling your own? Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own, and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime.
Yea, yea, I've heard the sales pitch. Problem is, a $300 thermostat can't give me any better energy savings than the act of me keeping my thermostat at a lower/higher temperature, depending on the season. Hell, I saved myself almost $100 in a single month this summer by raising the dial from 65 degrees to 70, no fancy electronics needed. So, really, there is no savings in buying an outrageously priced, wall-mounted bauble for people with sense.
And when I get chilly this winter? I'll put on a sweater.
I don't need my appliances talking to the internet.
Last summer I was just driving onto the ferry to head to the cottage for a couple of weeks when I realized that I forgot to turn down the hot water heater. Sure would have been nice to have connected to the heater from my phone and dialed it down remotely.
I once left on a long trip and thought I left the oven on. So I called my mother-in-law, who has a spare key, and had her check.
$2 key given to a trusted person, or a $300 appliance that may or may not work when you really need it to... the choice seems pretty simple to me.
You have not met my wife. She will walk into a room where I am sitting, change the thermostat or fan speed, then walk out. So I got to get up and set it back again. I have considered modifying things so it can't change, but that would be cruel.
Slashdot Mirror
Obvious is obvious. Now, if I'd have said something naturally subjective like 'common sense,' I'd be singing a different tune. But if a child can tell you something is wrong and why, then I shouldn't have to waste breathe explaining it to an adult.
That's nice in theory, but won't really work.
FTFY.
Sure you won't have many people fighting over whether or not we need laws against murder. But I can find you people who would tell you we "obviously" need anti-drug laws.
A more pragmatic approach might be to have 2 ways to get rid of automatic sunset provisions:
1st, a supermajority such as 75% when the law is initially passed
2nd, after X renewals (probably 3) it stops requiring renewal.
Anything as obvious as laws prohibiting murder should have no problem passing close to unanimously.
Sounds like a fair compromise. Guess this means neither of us will be running for office?
Was the guy ever catched ? Nope.
Did this happen during an English class?
In OP's defense, he did already admit to being French.
Oh, wait - I guess that's not really a defense, is it?
Or, and I'm just spitballing here, don't do any of that. Instead, use persuasive arguments to convince people to follow your will instead of trying to impose it via violence or threat of violence. Or even, if what you want people do do is legal to pay people to do, try that.
Quite the damning condemnation of American government you've posted there, considering their policy is, apparently, to lead with violence.
Is that more or less work than actually studying for the exam?
Ever met a truly lazy person?
You'd be amazed at the amount of work they're willing to do to get out of the work they're supposed to be doing.
Tell you what: how about we go ahead and have that debate, and anyone who tries to argue that, say, murder laws are non-obvious, gets the word 'SOCIOPATH' hot-branded onto their foreheads?
... and no, the irony of that statement is not lost on me; much to the contrary, I find it quite amusing.
I was being facetious. But when you add the "Except the obvious shit" caveat you then introduce "who gets to decide what is obvious".
Oh, c'mon now.
No, really.
Tell you what: how about we go ahead and have that debate, and anyone who tries to argue that, say, murder laws are non-obvious, gets the word 'SOCIOPATH' hot-branded onto their foreheads?
Obvious is obvious. Now, if I'd have said something naturally subjective like 'common sense,' I'd be singing a different tune. But if a child can tell you something is wrong and why, then I shouldn't have to waste breathe explaining it to an adult.
Perhaps we can all agree "I support sunset clauses on bad laws!" and be done with it?
Bad is subjective.
Quite obviously, no. In bigpat's OP they stated that: "There really should be sunset provisions on all laws." This is clearly nonsensical. Or would you argue that there should be sunset provisions on the laws against murder?
Ah, I see - you chose to take their post literally.
I chose to assume the caveat "Except the obvious shit" to apply.
And yet...nobody is in jail, being fined, or even refunding all that money they were paid to develop it.
Well, yea.
For that to happen, someone in federal government would have to admit to making a mistake, and as we all should know at this point, es ist VERBOTEN .
You know, I keep expecting the old 'Clippy' dig on MS to get old...
Hasn't yet :)
Not all of them http://www.vidstone.com/ProductsGeneral.aspx?productID=26
Ha, what a trip! $1500 for an LCD panel ($2400 if you opt for the 5 year anti-vandalism warranty)? Proves the old adage, 'a fool and his money are soon parted.'
Really, if you absolutely had to memorialize someone that way, you'd be better off buying one of those $20 commercial digital photo frames, wiring it to a solar panel, and drilling a couple mounting screws into the stone monument (which would have the added advantage of removable parts, since something will eventually fail).
I also suspect there's a better chance of one of my e-books still existing in 2,000 years than one of my paperbacks.
Then you have far more faith in digital storage media than I. FWIW, to this day they're digging up perfectly preserved, 2,000 year old scrolls in Mesopotamia. Your electronics will not last that long, and one good, solid solar flare is all it would take to completely wipe out all digitally stored media the world over.
I doubt either will, but the paperback is more likely to become ash in a house fire or mush in a flood than the file.
If you store them properly, then yes, the paperback books will still exist in 2,000 years. The e-books on your Kindle? Well, if you turn it off RIGHT NOW there might be a few read/write cycles left by that point in time, but the leakage from the battery will have rendered the entire thing a useless lump of minerals long before, no matter how well you store it.
So, someone has invented a cheap digital data storage method that will last thousands of years?
There's a reason tombstones are still big-ass etched stones, and not digital displays, you know.
Gosh, you might just have stumbled on the next big thing.
You know these annoyingly bright, giant, color led displays along the highway? Imagine that integrated into a tombstone, showing the dearly departed smiling and waiving and if someone walks by, serving them with some ads: "Don't do what I did. Call a qualified electrician."
I can appreciate any innovation that makes reality more like an episode of Futurama.
Er, no. Sunset clauses are a terrible waste of government time. Just think about it - if every law you pass gets a sunset clause, that means cumulatively over time you're spending a bigger and bigger portion of your time renewing previous laws to make them still active.
Huh? That makes no sense.
So, basically, you're saying that it takes more time to buy (or not buy) a car someone built than it would take for you to engineer and build a car yourself. That's nuts, yo.
No, sunset clauses are easy to deal with; it goes down like this:
As opposed to months of 'closed doors' meetings, secret deals with lobbyists, writes and re-writes and re-re-writes, etc.
You end up with situations like the US "fiscal cliff"
That had nothing to do with sunsetting laws, and everything to do with the fact that our Congress is made up of, essentially, narcissistic 5th graders.
Cellulose is the only way to go. One of the most promising sources is switch grass, which can be grown on much more marginal land, and pretty much re-plants itself (due to deep roots).
I've heard similar things about hemp, with the added benefit of hemp being useful for more than 1 thing.
Lifted from
Sanity, he suggests, is "when a person is adaptable and satiable, capable of realistic planning and empathizing with his fellow beings." In the book, he expands on these traits:
flexibility -- to be able to change your opinion or course of action, if shown clear evidence you were wrong.
satiability -- the ability to feel satisfaction if you actually get what you said you wanted, and to transfer your strivings to other goals.
extrapolation -- an ability to realistically assess the possible consequences of your actions and to empathize, or guess how another person might think or feel.
Huh.. so I live in a world populated mainly by insane people...
That explains a lot, actually.
So, someone has invented a cheap digital data storage method that will last thousands of years?
No, but someone has invented something cheap that stops working when it gets rained on and can't be repaired when you damage it.
A hard drive? Oh, no, you said cheap.
There's a reason tombstones are still big-ass etched stones, and not digital displays, you know.
And there's also a good reason they aren't made of paper.
... as well as a good reason why the information plate bolted to the side of the Voyager probe isn't made of paper, either.
Look, I ain't saying that paper is the be-all-end-all of communication methods; I'm just pointing out that anyone who thinks digital electronics will be a replacement for paper anytime in the near future is dreaming of pipes.
TL;DR version: sure, paper might suck, but digital storage sucks more.
Add in a wifi module, and the developer kits for your mobiles, and learn to program your mobile, write a web service, and the arduino/pi with it's limited C subset (and the module quirks). So for $200 + those, you've saved what over the $300 nest?
Unless the nest comes complete with remote sensors for the different zones, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
Also, as someone else pointed out, a $60 BeagleBone Black covers the electronics. So, really, the DIY setup is ~$40 for sensors, ~$60 for control, and $25 for wiring - we'll say $150 total to give a little wiggle room.
I don't know why you think there needs to be a wifi module for a system that's hard-wired into the house; I guess because the Nest has one? Well, that's another advantage to the roll-your-own version - no icky, insecure wireless junk to worry about.
As for the programming, you act like there aren't massive communities, both online and off, filled with people who like to help each other build funky things with CC-PCs and consumer microcontrollers.
There are. LOTS of them, actually.
So, not only would you save ~$100, you'd also have a much more extensive system then what the Nest gives you, and an opportunity to be a part of something interesting.
Oh, and something that's under your complete control, a feature I in particular find appealing.
How difficult is it to install another version of Android on devices like this? I would love to use something like this as a console-on-the-go, but would hate to deal with advertising crap while I'm trying to do work.
http://www.xda-developers.com/
Your answer should be contained within.
It seems we're getting closer to replacing paper once and for all.
So, someone has invented a cheap digital data storage method that will last thousands of years?
There's a reason tombstones are still big-ass etched stones, and not digital displays, you know.
Minimum wage is not enough for a single person to live alone. They would have to choose between food or a roof over their head.
I won't disagree with that, because it's true, but my point is that's what the minimum wage is supposed to provide: the minimum amount of fiscal security necessary for a single person living alone to survive on. Age nor education status have anything to do with it, as OP contended.
Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own,
Boom shaka-laka
and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
OK so assuming a 4 zone setup, you're looking at $40 for the sensor, let's say another $100 for the Ardiuno/Pi setup, and I'm going to guestimate no more than $25 in wire and other supplies... less than $200 total.
Not too shabby if you have the know-how and time to build and code it.
Compared to traditional multizone monitoring solutions with installation? Yes, it's cheap.
Touche.
Ever consider rolling your own? Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own, and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
Look at the whole puzzle, not just the price tag.
Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime.
Yea, yea, I've heard the sales pitch. Problem is, a $300 thermostat can't give me any better energy savings than the act of me keeping my thermostat at a lower/higher temperature, depending on the season. Hell, I saved myself almost $100 in a single month this summer by raising the dial from 65 degrees to 70, no fancy electronics needed. So, really, there is no savings in buying an outrageously priced, wall-mounted bauble for people with sense.
And when I get chilly this winter? I'll put on a sweater.
I don't need my appliances talking to the internet.
Last summer I was just driving onto the ferry to head to the cottage for a couple of weeks when I realized that I forgot to turn down the hot water heater. Sure would have been nice to have connected to the heater from my phone and dialed it down remotely.
I once left on a long trip and thought I left the oven on. So I called my mother-in-law, who has a spare key, and had her check.
$2 key given to a trusted person, or a $300 appliance that may or may not work when you really need it to... the choice seems pretty simple to me.
You have not met my wife. She will walk into a room where I am sitting, change the thermostat or fan speed, then walk out. So I got to get up and set it back again. I have considered modifying things so it can't change, but that would be cruel.
You don't need a $300 thermostat to fix that.
Meh, being able to have cheap multizone temp monitoring seems like a cool use of technology to me.
Considering that Google's main competition in this arena is the Nest, a $250 thermostat...
You have a really odd definition of the word "cheap," you know that?