Slashdot Mirror
Amazon Workers Strike In Germany As Christmas Orders Peak
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Washington Post reports that in Germany, Amazon's second-biggest market behind the United States, hundreds of Amazon.com workers went on strike just as pre-Christmas sales were set to peak, in a dispute over pay and conditions that has raged for months. Amazon, which employs 9,000 warehouse staff members in Germany plus 14,000 seasonal workers at nine distribution centers, says that 1,115 employees joined the strike at three sites. 'Amazon must realize it cannot export its anti-union labor model to European shores. We call on the company to come to the table and sign a global agreement that guarantees the rights of workers,' says Philip Jennings of the global trade union UNI. Verdi organized several short stoppages this year to try to force Amazon to accept collective-bargaining agreements ... The union says Amazon workers receive lower wages than others in retail and mail-order jobs and that other retailers pay overtime, but Amazon does not. 'What Amazon is doing is taking this American race-to-the-bottom roadshow to Germany and trying it out on our German brothers and sisters,' says David Freiboth. Amazon has defended its wage policies, saying that employees earn toward the upper end of the pay scale of logistics companies in Germany. Amazon also says it prefers to address employment issues with worker councils at individual sites rather than through negotiations with the union. Amazon says that there have been no delays to deliveries ... adding that Amazon uses its whole European logistics network during the Christmas period to ensure delivery times. A delegation of German workers was set to rally at Amazon's headquarters in Seattle along with U.S. unions. 'We're standing in solidarity with them. We are asking that Amazon respect the union there in Germany and negotiate in a way that is acceptable to Verdi,' says Kathy Cummings of the Washington State Labor Council, AFL-CIO, which was also attending the protest in Seattle."
I sense a whole lot more of them in Amazon's (near) future...
coding is life
they're already doing it pretty heavily... this sort of thing... striking in the middle of a christmas season... it inspires drastic steps.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Naive little American, how's your minimum wage that just keeps shrinking and shrinking working out for your economy?
Unten Gleben Glauben Globen
translation: what goes around comes around
If you don't want the business in Europe don't take it. Nobody forces you to sell your stuff in Germany.
How apt. It's too bad Americans can't see this but Germans can.
Does AWS also employ slave labor?
Amazon must realize it cannot export its anti-union labor model to European shores. ... ... powered by lobbying machine KPMG Consulting, their shill Gerhard 'Let's wrap him in barbed wire and shoot him into the sun' Schröder, Hartz 4 cheap-flexible-workforce-supply powered by German taxpayer and so forth. ... There, fixed that for you.
As much as I love shopping for stuff at amazon, I'm totally with these strikers. Kick them where it hurts is my vote on this! Go, workers rights, go! Voll in die Eier! ... I hope this spills over into the US, a notable signal no-holds barred neo-con corporate-socialism disguised as free market capitalism desperately needs. Here and across the pond.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
In one corner you've got an organisational of thousands with huge financial resources and political clout using its sheer size to say how and when people should be employed, and in the other corner you've got a union.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
And if Amazon doesn't want to pay them that sort of wage, they can get out of Germany. Nobody's forcing them to do business there.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
I dunno. Seems to be doing pretty good to squeeze out opportunities for the unskilled. Why hire 3 unskilled people when I can only afford 1 because of government mandate?
Sorry folks... there are only so many rungs that the government will allow us to put out there. The rest of you can FOAD.
Yes yes, we should work less, get more pay and consume more. That's the current criticism of the German competitiveness driving other European countries into debt, isn't it? I guess we're wrong if we do and wrong if we don't. Or do they mean, we should work cheaply for US companies and demand more pay from German companies? After all, Amazon does not contribute to Germany's export surplus. They hardly make any money, if their accounting is to be believed. IMHO Amazon ought to be shut down as a business, as it must clearly be seen as Bezos' hobby if it is unprofitable. Then they can't deduct their "business" expenses anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_trap
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
So hows's your massive student debt and your shitty economy helping you and your slightly above minimum wage job then?
What do we reckon is the probability of the Washington Post starting an investigative report on a story like this?
Misread the title as "Amazon Women Strike Germany as Christmas Orders Peak" - for a short while the world was a much more interesting place to live...
I buy German cars, because the engineering skill adds significant value but if they are trying to get all logistics moved to Poland or Hungary then they are doing the right thing.
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
It's going great! Soon, Americans won't be able to afford to buy useless crap from Amazon. Hope Amazon likes its shrinking American market!
The union says Amazon workers receive lower wages than others in retail and mail-order jobs and that other retailers pay overtime, but Amazon does not. Amazon has defended its wage policies, saying that employees earn toward the upper end of the pay scale of logistics companies in Germany.
Please note that the union sees the work as a mail-order job, where wages are higher.
Amazon thinks of it as a logistics job.
The union demands that Amazon recognize that the workers are in the mail-order business and pay accordingly.
What power has law where only money rules.
Nobody forces you to work at Amazon
Nobody, except the Bundesagentur für Arbeit. With the current unemployment rate, your options are "Amazon" or "starve", as your unemployment benefits will be cut quickly.
Seriously, if you don't want the work don't take it. Nobody forces you to work at Amazon
And, what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Seriously, if you don't want to pay appropriate wages, stay out of Germany. Nobody forces you to sell in Germany.
FTA....
1. Amazon says that it's pay is already near the top of the scale for logistic centers.
2. German Union Organizers have a problem with Amazon defining their distribution warehouses as "logistic centers" because it allows them to pay less than they would otherwise be required to.
Germany's strike is really a strike against Amazon fulfillment centers being allowed to classify themselves as "Logistics" centers. I'm curious what a better definition would be.
"Amazon also says it prefers to address employment issues with worker councils at individual sites rather than through negotiations with the union."
Yeah, I bet they do.
That's actually the reason we have unions in the first place, you know...
You would like them to, but they dont FOAD.
They get welfare and food stamps and employment assistance, and guess where all the money for that comes from.....Your taxes.
Your paying them to live anyway, you may as well get some work out of them.
This will just hasten the coming of the robots.
I assume the communist state of germany will have all kinds of laws against outright firing everybody. But, being replaced by a robot is probably not protected.
Good luck idiots! Ya'll should have gotten a job at McDonalds or Wal-Mart (Or as you guys call it, "Aldi")
And, what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
Posted here already, so I can't give you mod points. But really, this American attitude is quite idiotic. Wages are always negotiated. Sometimes one side is more powerful, sometimes it's not. Walmart left Germany with its tail between its legs, and what a loss is it for the country! (If anyone thinks Walmart makes low prices, Aldi and Lidl do that a lot better while actually providing quality products _and_ paying their employees decent wages). Nobody will shed a tear if Amazon does the same.
It's sad that Amazon and other organizations in the US have succeeded so much in suppressing Unions.
I guess I'll do a little whistleblowing on a job I had with Joann Fabrics here in the US in one of their warehouses. It was during the Christmas season and they hired many temp employees from temp agencies to fill out their staff to meet orders. I was one of many "pickers", someone who hauls heavy stuff all day (20+ pounds, all day for 8 hours) in a very dusty, dirty warehouse. The air was thick with the dust, so much so that if I didn't wear a mask, I'd be hacking up phlegm within an hour. Most people working there didn't wear masks. One guy said that, because many of the boxes come from overseas, he gets a rash every fall that "is red and itches like crazy". It happens around the same time shipments come in.
They treated us pretty badly, running us hard, as hard as the people who were there for 20 years, and expecting us to perform at their pace or get canned. You had your stats told to you every day. When I started at a whopping $8.00/hr, I was told I'd get a $.25 raise after working for 600 hours. I wanted to laugh in the supervisor's face.
This is the way these warehouses are, generally. As a worker you are paid crap, treated like crap, expected to work insanely hard, and if your health suffers, oh well.
Why should a worker be grateful to their employers? They do work, they get paid for part of the value of their work (if they got paid the full value of their work, it wouldn't be profitable for their employer to hire them). While this might be a mutually beneficial business arrangement, I'm hard-pressed to see why the employer is doing the worker a favor or otherwise giving them something that they aren't earning, which is my usual standard for being grateful.
I am officially gone from
Yeah, we see how that worked out in the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave where amazon comes from.
People working two or three minimum-wage jobs to make their living. No thank you very much, this is not for us. We like our workers' councils, our unions, our by law regulated rights of employees - if amazon does not like that they can fuck off. I have no problem my stuff being one or two europs more expensive than it is now if just all the workers are paid fairly, have their vacations and are treated as humans at their workplace and not as cattle or slaves owned by some corporation.
You don't understand how this works.
In Europe, *we don't want useless workers*. It is better that they are unemployed than that they do work that a robot should do.
Because of this strike, Amazon will accellerate their robot deployment, and that is *exactly* what Europe want.
I repeat, we don't want useless workers. The social security system requires workers to have a certain productivity, and this excludes certain low paid jobs.
Sorry, but those jobs should go offshore.
What many Americans don't understand is the true opportunity cost of a shitty job. You can either get your workforce to be productive through poverty as in the US, or you can get your workforce to be productive by eliminating unproductive jobs. The latter is what Europe wants to do.
I'm not sure why Amazon is being singled out here, except perhaps that it's a great example. The root problem is the greed of American-based companies and their total disregard or apathy towards their employees. The only people working for these parasitic companies that make money are the directors and C*s; their inflated value of what the "top people" do and the remuneration they award these so-called "top people" is outrageous. There really does need to a proper evaluation of how wages within a US-based company are distributed amongst the employees. Is a CEO really worth the same as 10000 (or more) "workers"? No, of course not. For a start, without workers there is no company and there is no profit because without workers the damn company can't even make a cent. And don't get me started about boards having to look out for their shareholders; if that was truly the case then proper and fair distribution of remuneration throughout the workers would be exactly the same (it's just the the C*s wouldn't earn 10 (or more) figure salaries whilst the minions earn 5 figure salaries, or maybe 6 if they're lucky.) The greed is sickening. The US culture is sickening. More and more countries are realising this. I fully support the workers; if they don't stand up, who will? It does seem that US workers seem to just accept this shit, but fortunately the rest of the world does seem to have more of a clue.
Actually, Aldi employees are about two steps higher in the food chain compared to McD or Wal-Mart workers.
Source: I have lived in both countries.
I agree with the trendy bullshitery but no kids? The world population needs to shrink but making it a requirement for people not intelligent enough to "better themselves" to not reproduce shreaks of eugenics. Stupid enough also includes people that screwed up their lives with unplanned parenthood before they went to college, live in small towns were Walmart is THE job, didn't have sufficient savings at the time things went to hell on them (and never will have at part time minimum wage) to move somewhere else with better opportunities etc.
A big party of the bullshit are all the econimist groups and business magazines claiming they need to stimulate consumer spending to get the economy going. You need some spending obviously but they try to make the poor feel guilty when they try to gather together a few thousand in net worth rather than buy the latest trendy bullshitery in order to ensure Big Corps required earnings growth.
Voll in die Eier
Full in the eggs?
The robots are coming no more faster than they were already, because amazon does not want to have to pay you a dime in the first place.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
"But AC!" you cry, "Bettering myself and my position is hard! I'd have to like, study, and not have time to sit around mindlessly consuming mah cable TV while I've got a giant dildo up my asshole!"
Studying is not a guarantee of success, as many unemployed individuals who bettered themselves by obtaining graduate degrees will tell you.
There's only one guaranteed method of bettering your position in life: be lucky. So, exactly how many cocks did you suck to get where you are today, Lucky?
There's no minimum wage in Germany, so your point is unclear.
As much as I love shopping for stuff at amazon
Me too. I live in the UK. I browse for stuff on Amazon. Frequently, the cheapest option is a third-party vendor. So I go to the vendor's website where the product is frequently cheaper still. I order it. Amazon makes nothing. And my money stays in the UK.
I save money. I help the economy. I don't help Amazon. What's not to like?
A friend of mine down on his luck and desperate for money worked last year for a few weeks at one of Amazon's fulfillment centers during their holiday hiring surge. Told me some stories that were Orwellian in the degree that people were "managed", with a ruthless efficiency that rivaled the mechanical processing of the products themselves. From the moment the trucks rolled in with the goods to the second they rolled out again, every moment of every item including the employees were tracked, itemized, stamped.... It was pretty unbelievable the conditions people were working in a Modern Times-like cog-in-a-machine way.
The pay was shit, the turnover ridiculous, and my friend like most people there didn't last very long. David Sederis or someone would have a field day with this.
Seriously, if you don't want the work don't take it. Nobody forces you to work at Amazon
And, what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
A strike is a bunch of people deciding to take unauthorized unpaid vacation at the same time, not a bunch of people quitting their jobs.
I don't understand this attitude. (Applies here and to the AC OP). This is a negotiation. Both parties have skin in the game. This shouldn't be viewed as an all or nothing proposition. These are the only the starting positions. This shouldn't be emotional; it certainly isn't for Amazon. If a solution can be had that is at least acceptable to both parties then it will be reached. The worst case scenario is that they can't agree and Amazon pulls back to other neighboring countries, while shipping products into Germany from the outside. But this will only happen if the workers in Germany are unwilling to negotiate and push the cost of doing business there up over the combined cost of doing business elsewhere and shipping stuff into Germany from the outside.
Yea cause most of Europe is doing SO economically well...
I am not labelling the majority of individual US citizens as sadistic, egotistical, greedy, sociopathic, controlling, corrupt, stupid and dishonest. Just the US nation as a whole (i.e. your government, your spies and the business and banking leaders and their "top people".) The rest of the world is waking up to the disease that's called the US, the internal stability of the US is eroding rapidly, and we're quite possibly witnessing the spiralling downfall of a once great nation. I empathise with those in the US who have or will be caught up in this downfall, but your own government will probably just call it collateral damage.
Well, I bet your 2 cents aren't worth as much as you paid Amazon, you stinking hypocrite.
Once again, a Slashtard talks up a good idealistic game but fails to deliver in action. Who woulda thunk it?
Housewives making extra money for the Holiday, poor folks using Christmas' commercialization as an opportunity to get hired on full time, and possibly even some Department Store Santas who cannot hold a regular job year round.... I don't think we're talking historical on the order of Lech Walesa here.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Studying is not a guarantee of success, as many unemployed individuals who bettered themselves by obtaining graduate degrees will tell you.
Bettered themselves? This "Everybody's gotta go to college!" nonsense is making colleges and universities worse. They lower their standards to let in trash that wouldn't have been accepted in the past and everyone suffers for it. Additionally, most of the garbage that colleges and universities pump out is just that: trash.
There are many, many losers who go to college not to educate themselves (most could do that with the Internet or with books if they weren't so unmotivated and unintelligent), but because they believe it will help them get a job; that's not what education is about.
If the strike becomes a problem, Amazon will continue to sell in Germany. They just won't EMPLOY anyone in Germany. If that happens they will ship to Germany from distribution centers based elsewhere.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
No delays to deliveries? Less than 5% of the current workforce participating in the strike? What a waste of time.
Can you site a source for this that would explain it to me? I don't understand how eliminating the shitty jobs you don't want to do will magically make more awesome jobs available to everyone else.
Business is war, not a matter of "gratitude" because employment isn't a "gift".
Collective bargaining is the only way otherwise valueless workers have leverage. One ant is nothing, but an army of ants is very different.
Americans are carefully indoctrinated nowadays to lick corporate boots, no surprise since business owns the US. Mistakes by unions (who BTW were FORCED to get in bed with the Mob back when business utterly owned the politicians and the cops leaving them zero alternative) certainly hurt them, but that in no way invalidates the utility of collective bargaining. Some of us bothered to read more labor history than is taught in school. I suggest that to others so you can draw your own conclusions.
Workers are not the enemy, business is not the enemy, but to have an equitable relationship to BARGAIN each must have power. The only way workers can have power is collective bargaining unless they are specially skilled AND in short supply.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
So what you are saying is that the minimum wage jobs are working out quite well for them?
I agree that welfare in the US allows companies to not pay a living wage to employees and it effectivly subsidizes those companies. But that is the result of half assed socialism not the companies taking advantage of it. Without those social services making up the differences, those jobs would either be relegated to extra money jobs, jobs for kids looking for experience, or gone altogether. It only becomes a problem when it distorts the job markets to the point that minimum wage jobs become career opertunities. This is compounded by the increasing concept of single person/parent households and the ever increasing expectations of them.
OMG. If that is what Europe really wants, then they can keep it. Maybe they don't realize that workers don't magically become "productive" out of the womb. Nor do they when someone hands them a diploma. Productivity increases with experience.
By saying a nation should only employ productive workers and leave the unproductive unemployed, you are effectively saying that anyone young should just be a dependent of the state while older people get to reap the benefits of labor shortages.
So what happens when your older "productive" workers all retire? All of those "unproductive" young people you wanted to keep unemployed will still be unproductive. I suppose you could just import productive immigrants. But eventually nobody will want to come to your country because you're going to have to tax most of their pay in order to support the multitudes of unproductive people in your country.
No. I think I prefer America's way of doing things. We provide subsidies to our low-wage earners in the hopes that they increase their productivity through experience. It isn't perfect, but it is at least sustainable.
Not sure if trolling or serious. I mean, even GDR was merely socialist.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Their model is to cut all possible worker benefits to the bone; maintain a tax presence in only the friendliest, most cowed regimes while selling to people in better countries with functioning goverments and put a shiny face to the world in their shitty website.
Mail order (web shopping is mail order) is only useful in these circumstances - if you have a stay at home spouse, if you work at home, or for items small enough to fit through your door. Who wants to buy from a website for something big - who do I take it back to if it breaks? One of Amazon's "trusted partners"?
You can either get your workforce to be productive through poverty as in the US, or you can get your workforce to be productive by eliminating unproductive jobs. The latter is what Europe wants to do.
You're stealing a page from our playbook. What a shame we abandoned it 30 years ago. BTW, keep using it - it works very well.
P.S. I just realized "stealing a page from our playbook" is an American idiom that may not translate well. Oddly, I couldn't find a definition on the Internet, but roughly it means using an idea or approach that the other team or group used first.
Square in the nuts.
What's it going to be? It's a global economy, there are people in other countries willing to do the job you won't. Sad to say but unions are effectively dead until third world countries stop working for pennies on the dollar.
Maybe you can go and find out when the last time the minimum wage went down instead of up and get back to us
~ "Right in the balls"
Amazon fulfillment centers in america routinely make workers stand in unpaid lines for security checks as they exit. Wages in the states would never appropach our own livable $15 thanks to a patchwork system of labor laws and tax incentives pushed through by gerrymandered republican political districts under the guise of job creation.
if you mandate health insurance for full time employees, all the employees will be made part time.
if you mandate OSHA regulations and safe work environments, employers will just pay their political lackey to chisel the agency down to nothing at the state level.
if you complain about the workplace, the squeekiest wheel will be terminated without cause.
if you finally get tired of your employers jackboot, they'll complain about how rudely you brought their insolence to the public limelight, instead of burying your remorse and misery in their complaint department rubbish bin.
state-by-state corporate legislation works about as well as state-by-state marriage legislation.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Of course, this was meant as a dismissal of the AC OP's fatuous argument, not a stance on the issue.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
It's not that simple. Unemployment insurance in Europe, as in the US, is not payable if you quit, only if you get laid off.
If you get offered a job at Amazon, think "hey this sounds great" and it turns out you're working 12 hours a day you're pretty much stuck with the job waiting for something new. But trying to find a new job is difficult because interviews require time off. Even if you piss through all your vacation, it still might not be enough. Because, remember, your vacation is going to be pro rated since you just started.
So you start this nice new job, with hellish conditions, no overtime, and no option of losing it. Who can blame them for striking?
That will be harder, since I am fairly certain the shipping prices would be prohibitive, especially things like having to go through customs. Just doing a simple UPS check from sending from my address to Vancouver costs 2x as much as from my address to LA, for the lowest tier service.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Education is about bettering yourself. If all you want is to get a job, lie on your resume and suck a lot of cocks.
Or they could create separate staffing companies and hire temp workers with few regular workers.
But it is no wonder companies have so much anymosity towards employees when they pick the busiest time of the year to stop work. It completely smacks of the we want to hurt you vibe that is generally met with hostile return. I bet someone is attempting to find ways to fire the lot of the strikers without violating law.
Actually, things are pretty fine in Germany.
Aldi Lidl quality products
lolwut?
Not a source, but the theory is that by emphasizing high-end and high-paying jobs, and making a business environment that supports those higher wages, there is tax money available for education and social services that support the skills needed for those high-end jobs. Eventually, the society settles into a pattern where people live with little personal risk early in their careers (when they can't afford a catastrophe), and they're secure enough later on that they can help pay for others' security.
As an example case, I recently heard about a friend-of-a-friend who lives in Denmark (I think), and got free education, healthcare, and various other support services while he was a student. After entering the work force as an engineer, he now makes enough to live comfortably while gladly paying 60% in taxes.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Maybe you shouldn't pump out multiple kids
How's defunding Planned Parenthood working out for you?
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
"The union says Amazon workers receive lower wages than others in retail and mail-order jobs"
"Amazon has defended its wage policies, saying that employees earn toward the upper end of the pay scale of logistics companies in Germany."
So who is right? Is Amazon avoiding paying overtime because they schedule worker shifts in an intelligent manner that does not require overtime (resulting in lower earnings per employee), or because they dont pay overtime even if people work overtime?
"The union says that by classifying its centers as "logistics" centers, Amazon can pay lower wages" - so what is the right definition - Can they be called "retail", or as "mail-order" jobs... can someone enlighten... based on facts...
There are so many nuances that just cannot be understood from a simple media article... Oh well... this is slashdot....
But what I'd rather have is that Amazon, and its workers and its worker councils and its unions sort the matter out in an amicable manner, than to inconvenience their paying customers, which can only result in something negative for all the parties involved.
if they are trying to get all logistics moved to Poland or Hungary then they are doing the right thing
Poland or Hungary? Try Alabama or South Carolina. The labor isn't quite as cheap as Eastern Europe, but shipping costs to the US market are less. That's right folks, to Daimler-Benz and BMW the US is a cheap labor country.
Naturally some clever soul will say that if it wasn't for the cheaper labor in the US, we wouldn't have those jobs at all. Bull. The US is an important enough market that we could twist arms to get a lot of the work done here. That's how Japanese car plants originally got here.
Aren't you proud of America for having an approach that makes us a cheap labor country? Naturally some other clever soul will wax nostalgic for a past golden age, and say that's what made American industry great. Bull - the only place that golden age ever existed is in ideologues heads. 100+ years ago the US was well known for having much higher labor rates than Europe, and it doesn't seem like we did so badly. The same was true in the 50's and 60's, but the 100+ year ago example proves that it wasn't just a post-WWII fluke.
That's all well and good, if you have a society of engineers. But what happens to those that can't graduate university?
Bundesagentur für Arbeit
I think I know what you're talking about, but a little translation wouldn't hurt.
As an example case, I recently heard about a friend-of-a-friend who lives in Denmark (I think), and got free education, healthcare, and various other support services while he was a student. After entering the work force as an engineer, he now makes enough to live comfortably while gladly paying 60% in taxes.
That's great for your anecdotal friend of a friend in a maybe hypothetical country. But not everyone is cut out for a high paying technical job. Getting rid of all the unskilled jobs leaves those people with no jobs at all.
Just fine, for those of us who aren't useless and actually worked to better ourselves and our position.
Spoken like a true American.
I've got mine Jack.
Would you have enough if you weren't standing on the backs of all the minimum wage workers below you making your live comfortable and affordable?
You may think your doing ok, but an economy where the low paid aren't even earning enough to live cant possibly last forever.
In the end there will only be 2 choices, tax the rich enough to be able to pay the "useless people" with no jobs (or minimum wage).
Increase the wages enough so they can afford to live semi-decent lives.
Since the rich will have to pay either way, and you don't seem to like the idea of them sitting around watching TV, pay them a decent wage.
They may even spend more, they will definitely produce more, and they may even feel better about themselves and provide a good example for all those kids they may have pumped out.
Problem with that - if the Germans they unfairly treat take the issue to the European courts, they can force the issue with Amazon's subsidiaries in the other EU member states. If Amazon screw this up badly enough, they could see themselves forced out of Europe entirely. Not that they're that stupid. And not that it would be a bad thing if it did happen.
Apparently, Czech wage slaves would be more manageable, or so they say. But the locals blocked it in a plebiscite.
http://www.praguepost.com/business/23186-amazon-sets-eyes-on-czech-republic
There is no minimum wage here in Germany, at least not currently.
There is a number of exploitation of cheap labour, mostly from east European countries, some say it's the only reason why our economy is the strongest in Europe. It's basically modern slavery, they earn 5€ per hour, which for them is a lot of money, but would be ridiculously low for German living costs including insurance, health care and other expenses.
Workers in adjacent countries, like France, lose their jobs because their parent companies rather have goods shipped to Germany and processed there. Then shipped back again, because it's way cheaper than processing goods locally in France, where the minimum wage is almost twice as much (9.4something€ per hour).
Our Lobbyist Kiss-asses, err, I meant to say politicians, fear that minimum wages will ruin the economy of Germany, will destroy jobs. Now that a minimum wage (around 8€) was promised to be introduced in 2016 from the coalition of Germany's upcoming government, we'll see how things will develop.
I didn't like my old job because the pay and benefits were unfair. Now I got a new job and the pay and benefits are good. That's what I think of unions. Oh and here's the kicker: the former company was doing terrible financially. A union would have made them go bankrupt.
"The union says Amazon workers receive lower wages than others in retail and mail-order jobs"
So go work for them. Amazon isn't the only place to work in Germany.
Every year the inflation rate was above zero
I want to hear this one. I love foreign idioms and their literal translations (presumably English idioms are also funny in their literal translations). German seems particularly colorful. I like "I have seen the horse vomit."
Yes because putting yourself in your best bargaining position is something only corporations should do. I mean it's not like wages go down when there is a glut of workers right?
The minimum wage is/was *supposed* to be for kids in or just out of high school, college students, etc.
The real cause of this, the point at which we jumped into the race to the bottom was in the 80's, when two things happend:
Union busting actually became popular. Reagan busting the air traffic controllers, and the unexpected level of approval from Americans, was a tipping point. Upward pressure on wages fell away across the economy.
Supply side economic policy has been the norm since (under Reagan) taxes on the super rich was basically cut in half.
Income inequality is the real devil here. The flatter the line is the better off everyone is, even the super rich. To fix it we need two things, upward pressure on labor wages, and an artificial friction to acquiring wealth. By that I mean the more wealthy you are the harder it is to get more wealthy. A progressive tax system does this, but maybe there are other methods.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
A friend of mine down on his luck and desperate for money worked last year for a few weeks at one of Amazon's fulfillment centers during their holiday hiring surge. The pay was shit, the turnover ridiculous, and my friend like most people there didn't last very long.
I had horrible low paying jobs at times. If there are less horrible or better paying jobs available you can move to them. If not, well, it's nice to have a job when you need one. I would guess that the majority of people don't think their jobs are fun, and would like to get paid more. I doubt most coding slaves are happy.
A quote from the movie Gladiator:
Cicero: Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to.
Not to mention Airbus would have opened US factories to build the tanker for US Air Force (if they would have won the contract)
Useless people shouldn't be forced to work for a living; it just makes them angry and bitter. Who would want to live in a society full of angry bitter useless people?
..was thinking that myself, actually ;)
WalMart are generally regarded as having failed in Germany due to an overly-strict 1-1 replication of their US store policies. As an UK national, long-time resident in Germany, I could never actually figure out exactly where their problem was (Employment policies? Bag Packers?, etc.) - UK supermarket chains are probably, if anything, less-acceptable to the sensitive cultural retail preferences of the Germans. Tell you what tho, (German) Aldi remains a nightmare, I more or less refuse to set foot in one, and having claimed, as the OP just did, they sell `Quality`products, I would very much doubt he has either. Lidl is *slightly* better, and thats being damned by faint praise indeed.
Nobody forced* anyone to work in Carnegie's steel mills or Rockefeller's oil refineries either, but they were killed and mutilated by their thousands - either by industrial accidents or by union breakers when strikes started breaking out.
*At least, not by your selectively blinkered definition of the word "force" anyway.
Americans are carefully indoctrinated nowadays to lick corporate boots, no surprise since business owns the US.
Do you live in the US or have you just been told this? I grew up in Texas which is pretty conservative and the education I received was that unions where the worker's hero. My daughter receives the same information from her schools. I am trying to recall a recent movie (outside of Atlas Shrugged) or show where a big business was the hero and the unions were the bad guys.
An interesting article by David Simon on a similar theme.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different." ~ Kurt Vonnegut Jnr.
... I've got to say: the American posters on here that are largely big-company bootlickers are really pathetic. I think that Free Market Capitalists are almost as bad a Religionists in that you both believe in fairy tales and you want to be on your knees "worshipping" said fairy tale.
I don't respond to AC's.
Unless I am greatly mistaken, there is no customs between members of the European Union. My understanding is that shipping between the members of the European Union is, at most, only slightly more cumbersome than shipping between two different states within the U.S..
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
As much as I love shopping for stuff at amazon
Me too. I live in the UK. I browse for stuff on Amazon. Frequently, the cheapest option is a third-party vendor. So I go to the vendor's website where the product is frequently cheaper still. I order it. Amazon makes nothing. And my money stays in the UK.
I save money. I help the economy. I don't help Amazon. What's not to like?
Your purchasing model treats the services of searching and aggregating product listings as an externality that you expect society as a whole to bare while you enjoy a free rider effect.
If your system were used by the majority of people Amazon would go out of business and you'd loose the key point in your system.
Just keep the packaging and send it back to Amazon if it breaks. As Amazon is the seller, they have to take it back for the next two years and repair or replace it.
Germany is part of the EU so it's no harder to delivery to a German 5 mins from the Dutch border from the Netherlands than it is to supply it from a hub in Germany but equally far away. That said, Germany is a pretty big country and servicing the majority of it from distribution centres in other countries would add costs. The Czechs might welcome the work that gets moved there but the Dutch, Danes, French and Austrians probably aren't that interested in getting hand me down jobs that the Germans rejected.
Except that is not what they are saying at all. They provide much better educational opportunities than we do in the US, and education increases productivity just as much as experience. They also didnt say they let the unproductive people stay unproductive, their social services require they become productive, or they are thrown out, keeping a steady supply of productive workers.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Another problem of Walmart was that the tried to get better prices at the wholesalers, and then noticed that they are just some second class customer to them. Thus Walmart couldn't compete on prices, as they couldn't buy in large enough volumes. Yes, Walmart was just too small in Germany for their business model. Maybe if they had kept the Wertkauf chain of stores intact and slowly expanded their business, they might still have a presence in Germany - known as Wertkauf and not as Walmart.
So in other words you subsidise underpayment of staff by big business. You reward businesses for undervaluing their workers.
They take the low-end jobs that are still around. The world still needs telephone sanitizers.
Of course, there are few folks who actually "can't" graduate, given a good enough support structure. University becomes a lot easier when you don't have to also work full-time to pay for the classes.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
But it is no wonder companies have so much anymosity towards employees when they pick the busiest time of the year to stop work. It completely smacks of the we want to hurt you vibe that is generally met with hostile return. I bet someone is attempting to find ways to fire the lot of the strikers without violating law.
Of course that's exactly what is intended. The company hurts its employees in their wage packets. Do you think they are happy about that? The company is blatantly lying about their business to avoid paying higher wages, so do you think the employees are happy about that?
I remember reading about a Wal-Mart higher up who said their problem in Germany was that they couldn't get people to buy more non-food items. Stores like Aldi carry mostly food because it's what the market expects. I also know this is an extremely competitive market and profit margins are very thin. Even with their mountains of cash, Wal-Mart wasn't able to bend the market to their will.
Who wants to buy from a website for something big - who do I take it back to if it breaks? One of Amazon's "trusted partners"?
Have you bought something big from a traditional retail outlet lately? Once it's out the door it's no longer their problem. Have an issue? Call the manufacturer. Warranty claim? Call the manufacturer. It's really no different.
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
"But AC!" you cry, "Bettering myself and my position is hard! I'd have to like, study, and not have time to sit around mindlessly consuming mah cable TV while I've got a giant dildo up my asshole!"
Baaaaaw.
Sigh.
Yes, rest of the world, we really do have people so stupid they literally believe this kind of crap. Not only that, those same wastes of flesh piss and moan endlessly about "class warfare" anytime someone tries to make a change that would better the lives of our nation's poorest citizens.
On behalf of all thinking, reasonable Americans, I would like to apologize for this douche-muncher and his ilk. Let's all pray he's too busy staring in a mirror and wanking to ever go out and vote.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
No shit, Sherlock. And then I would go back to using Google.
That's all well and good, if you have a society of engineers. But what happens to those that can't graduate university?
They get to go to vocational school and learn how to repair and maintain all those cool toys the engineers build.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The minimum wage reached its (inflation-adjusted) historic high in 1968, when it was raised from $1.40 to $1.60 per hour. Adjusted for inflation using the BLS online inflation calculator that would come to $10.55 per hour in 2012 dollars.
Easy, virtually every year from 1968 till now
As for movies where unions are the bad guys, there are plenty, ever movie where you see a couple of union guys pick up a bat to go beat down on someone.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
IIRC the German government is planning to introduce one, roughly $11.65 at the current exchange rate.
But it is no wonder companies have so much anymosity towards employees when they pick the busiest time of the year to stop work.
Of course they did: If you're going to strike, you pick the time that will have the most impact. Just like how a corporation tends to have lockouts and contract negotiations when there is high unemployment in the region near the factory.
As far as the animosity towards employees, the fact is that workers and management have an inherently adversarial relationship: The worker wants to maximize the amount they are paid for the work they do, and minimize the work they have to do to earn it. Management wants to maximize the amount of work performed, and minimize how much they have to pay to get it done. To pretend that these are other than diametrically opposed is just plain silly. And if you feel thoroughly dedicated to your job, know that management loves people like you because you'll work those 16-hour days without complaining or demanding any kind of compensation.
I am officially gone from
The minimum wage is/was *supposed* to be for kids in or just out of high school, college students, etc.
Citation? Because I was always told it was considered the lowest wage a single person living alone could survive on.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
That's an approach you'll see in many European countries.
Most university graduates will produce more than enough taxes through their higher income and the revenue generated through their work to make up for the absence of tuitions at government-financed universities.
German Federal Employment Agency. Obviously.
So when those jobs are gone all together, where will the people work?
And do you expect the companies to suddenly pay a decent wage from the goodness of their heart for all the jobs that do remain?
The next lowest paid will just be forced into the situation of the lowest paid now. I's all downward pressure on wages from bigger and bigger companies fighting against more and more desperate workers. Who do you expect will win?
Your looking at it wrong.
The idea is not to create jobs. The idea is to reduce the amount of jobs. So that there are enough workers available for everyone to have less than 40 hour weeks, at least 20 days vacation + some 10 national holidays, that you can take 1 year off for any reason you can think off like traveling the world, that you can take weeks and weeks of paternity leave and that you can retire at an early age, while you can still do something physical you like.
Lol.. you have so many misconceptions it isn't funny. The minimum wage was created to curb minority companies under bidding bloated established white companies. It created a base level that barred those willing to work for less from taking well paying jobs. Mandating a prevailing wage in government contracts was much the same. In more modern times, the minimum had been used to stealth tax increases as both the employee and the employer has taxes associated with pay that does not get refunded.
Second, union busting has never been popular in recent times. People started seeing unions in a negetive light when Reagan busted the air traffic controllers specifically because they walked off the job and left people in danger in planes in the air with no one directing their movements in a reletively tight airspace. That is when people started seeing that 90% of what unions were needed for was already encoded into law and their remaining usefulness was mostly about greed of income. But what really killed the unions was downsizing in the 80s where the bloat was consolidated and made efficient. This lead to companies poping up that could compete far better than most established union shops and they took an even deeper hit with the offshoring craze that pitted union wages against third world wages. Outside of the traffic controllers showing how wreckless the pursuit of greed can be, it had little to do with the fall of the unions.
As for income inequality, the majority of the income being considered too large is performance based. It is stock options, bonuses and so one attached to a base pay. It was originally done this way in order to shirk pay obligations if the executive failed to properly run the company (with some tax strategy). The problem is it an incentive to keep wages low and stagnant. It isn't so much the inequal amounts that is the effective problem but what makes those amounts so inequal. Now i know you are looking at fixing it meaning increasing worker pay but the realities will likely be decreasing exec pay and simply giving them prefered stock where they get the same but it is counted as dividends separate from their pay.
The only way to fix this is to tie employee wages to the same or similar bonus structures. This way, even if the ceo makes 20,000 times more than the base hourly pay for workers, those workers get rewarded the same. I have seen people who actually do get profit sharing earn as much as 2 times thier anual salary fron the profit. Mostly it seems to be one third to two thirds more.
I had horrible low paying jobs at times. If there are less horrible or better paying jobs available you can move to them. If not, well, it's nice to have a job when you need one.
The people complaining about the horrible, just horrible conditions at Amazon would appear to have never had to work a low-paid, low-skill production-line job.
I did that for a while when I was at school, and would have switched to Amazon without a second thought if they'd been around at the time.
As an example case, I recently heard about a friend-of-a-friend who lives in Denmark (I think), and got free education, healthcare, and various other support services while he was a student. After entering the work force as an engineer, he now makes enough to live comfortably while gladly paying 60% in taxes.
60% sounds a bit high but it's in the ballpark. The important point is to add up the total cost that an american would have to pay in order to get the same benefits. If You do the math then the tax doesn't seem particular high in comparison. But it's still the Danish national sport to complain about it.
TCAP-Abort
When the marriage is based around resentment and getting one over the other, it is often best to just end it with a divorce. This is no different, it is just an unhealthy relationship and breads discontent.
Just an observation. No saying one is right or left or anything. Just that it carries a lot of negetive baggage with it.
After winning the historical 1936 election by a landslide, President Roosevelt signed the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) into law in early 1938. The FLSA introduced sweeping regulations to protect American workers from being exploited, and created a mandatory federal minimum wage of 25 cents an hour in order to maintain a "minimum standard of living necessary for health, efficiency and general well-being, without substantially curtailing employment". This new law was welcomed as a godsend by the thousands of workers who were previously forced to work for a fraction of that amount, but was violently opposed by many employers and fiscal conservatives who argued that a minimum wage could hurt employers. In addition to establishing a mandatory nation-wide minimum wage the Fair Labor Standards Act introduced many other worker's protection laws still in effect today, including banning child labor and establishing workplace safety statutes.
http://www.minimum-wage.org/history.asp
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Appropriate, of course, being an agreeable wage that the company is willing to pay and the employee is willing to accept. Seems like that agreement was reached, but now one side wants to renegotiate.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
"... smacks of the we want to hurt you vibe.."
Well, when the employers tries to ignore or stonewall the employees the rest of the year it's the only recourse employees have.
Plus there is a lot of media focused on the economics this time of the year.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Exactly, what have the poor ever done for us.
Other than teach your children (probably even you for free)
Fight your wars
Build your roads
Grow your food
Police your gated community
Install your internet
make your iphone
Actually I think it would be easier if we list what the rich people do.
Take everything in the country that was already done for granted and get lucky one time.
Don't confuse unions with onions. Onions are the round things that make you cry. Unions are actually good - because of them, people no longer work 16 hours a day, and there is no child labor.
I'd say rather fine than pretty fine.
bickerdyke
I want to hear this one. I love foreign idioms and their literal translations (presumably English idioms are also funny in their literal translations). German seems particularly colorful. I like "I have seen the horse vomit."
Mensch, du hast einen Vogel!
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
"I assume the communist state of germany"
You should actually make an attempt to understand what Communism means and why it doesn't apply to Germany.
You sound like an jabbering idiot.
Robots will make communism the best form of government. Not to be confused with Leninism which is an abuse of Marx.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"ever movie where you see a couple of union guys pick up a bat to go beat down on someone"
That wasn't a movie. It was real life, many times over. Unions served a good purpose in the early 1900s, and eventually will again when the pendulum swings too far back, but over the last few decades they have largely been bad for the worker, bad for the consumer, bad for the economy, bad for the government, and REALLY bad for some people who disagree or get in the way.
Damn these people for wanting to keep their company competitive and for wanting to provide jobs for people who would otherwise not have them!!! *Shakes Fist*
The maximum income tax in Denmark is 51.7%, but there are a lot of ways to decrease the taxed part of the incomes (e.g. union membership, transportation costs, debt, pension savings) so the actual average tax rate on income is in the mid 30s.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
The same was true in the 50's and 60's,
Yeah it wasnt like the 4 major areas were not still stinging from a world war or anything. While the US still had a market leader advantage of having things built and ready to go...
example proves that it wasn't just a post-WWII fluke.
Yeah if you ignore The french revolution, Napoleon, and WWI, and the English trying to force down rebellion across most of their colonies. Also if you ignore the major cause of those wars was 'no jobs' and poverty due to heavy taxes and heavy manipulation of their currencies...
Until 1940 there was *no* min wage in the US. http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/coverage.htm It was expanded across all industries in 1961 with exceptions. By 1977 it was everywhere (and the following recession it kicked off within 1-2 years on top of the oil guys taking advantage of it).
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap19p1.htm
BMW the US is a cheap labor country
Look to the import taxes. I have bought foreign cars. There are steep tariffs on those cars. Usually as much as 5-20% of the car cost. More for really high end cars.
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap11p1.html
OMG. If that is what Europe really wants, then they can keep it. Maybe they don't realize that workers don't magically become "productive" out of the womb. Nor do they when someone hands them a diploma. Productivity increases with experience.
By saying a nation should only employ productive workers and leave the unproductive unemployed, you are effectively saying that anyone young should just be a dependent of the state while older people get to reap the benefits of labor shortages.
So what happens when your older "productive" workers all retire? All of those "unproductive" young people you wanted to keep unemployed will still be unproductive. I suppose you could just import productive immigrants. But eventually nobody will want to come to your country because you're going to have to tax most of their pay in order to support the multitudes of unproductive people in your country.
No. I think I prefer America's way of doing things. We provide subsidies to our low-wage earners in the hopes that they increase their productivity through experience. It isn't perfect, but it is at least sustainable.
Internships payed for by the government would trivially solve that problem.
The company has incentive to hire unpaid interns because, free labor. The Interns have incentive to take unpaid internships because the government will guarantee lining expenses while they're employed in one, and while on the job they will develop the same skills they would get from an entry level payed position in the US. Further because the internship stipends will set the lower bound for pay within that field, everyone will have an incentive to move past the free internships and get a better paying position as soon as they have the skills for it. Additionally the government could set a limit on how long they will pay an internship stipend (say 10 years) so as to cut off the truly worthless.
The only down side is that the interns stipends come from tax revenue, so those who have paying jobs will take on the tax burden of paying the interns. However past the first generation the people paying will be people who benefitted from the tax when they were younger working off their debt so provided you can get the system voted in you should subsequently have little trouble justifying it's continuation..
So tell us how you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps and became rich without any reliance on poor people.
"Bundes" = Federal (as in "Bundesrepublik Deutschland")
"Agentur" = Agency/office
"Für" = For
"Arbeit" = Work (as in "Arbeit macht frei").
Pretty easy to understand.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
"But AC!" you cry, "Bettering myself and my position is hard! I'd have to like, study, and not have time to sit around mindlessly consuming mah cable TV while I've got a giant dildo up my asshole!"
Baaaaaw.
Sigh.
Yes, rest of the world, we really do have people so stupid they literally believe this kind of crap. Not only that, those same wastes of flesh piss and moan endlessly about "class warfare" anytime someone tries to make a change that would better the lives of our nation's poorest citizens.
On behalf of all thinking, reasonable Americans, I would like to apologize for this douche-muncher and his ilk. Let's all pray he's too busy staring in a mirror and wanking to ever go out and vote.
While this is what is the core of the conservative mindset it by no means is limited to the US so there's no need to apologize.
If the mainland European conservative parties said in clear terms that they believe in an elite and that everybody is equally able and should strive to become part of that elite then they would lose each and every election. That myth has been dispelled. Hard graft by no means does guarantee you a living anymore. In fact if you wokr as hard as your parents did you will still not be able to maintain their standard of living.
Germany is at the moment in a very awkward position. While the unions had managed to negotiate reasonable wages the big employers manage to dodge their agreements by hiring third-party service providers who treat their people like crap. There have been cases where those outsourcers lured people from Spain to Germany, housed them in decrepid buildings and paid them next to nothing. Things like these are very unpopular here in Germany. A retailer made the news that they treated their employees like crap and suddenly had to face reduced sales because the customers stayed away. I know of a WalMart in Germany that hardly has any customers due to the bad image they have. Things like these go against the grain of a majority of the populace. The conservative parties in Germany win elections by not promoting their ideas of having and relying on an elite but by being perceived as reliable.
The Ayn Randers would be met with disbelief if they tried to be honest and vocal in Germany. There is a reason why a party that has been part of parliament for the whole existance of the modern German democracy has been shamefully ousted this year and they got very little sympathy.
20 minutes into the future
Walmart left Germany with its tail between its legs, and what a loss is it for the country!
Your characterization is wrong. Walmart left Germany because it was a bad place to do business.
Put your money where you mouth is. Start sending the employees +15-20% of every purchase you make to substitute their wages. Amazon isn't dealing with high margins here and is known for not making a profit. I could understand if they were over charging for goods and underpaying their staff that you could be upset the C-- level was reaping the benefits but that just isn't the case here.
If Amazon had two check out options, one for current wages and a second for proposed wages, and let people choose which option to use you would find most people don't want to pay employees more but they want to pay less on goods.
That's all well and good, if you have a society of engineers. But what happens to those that can't graduate university?
They get to go to vocational school and learn how to repair and maintain all those cool toys the engineers build.
Very funny. You think it's still 1950.
No User Serviceable Parts Inside was the motto of the last half of the 20th Century. Now it's more like Ending is better than Mending.
Realistically, its virtually impossible to repair microcircuit-based devices. And even when it isn't, it's simply not cost-effective more often than not. Often, even a set of new batteries costs more than the original device did, batteries and all.
The old time TV/Radio repair shops are virtually extinct. Last one I saw did primarily replacements on projector bulbs.
OMG. If that is what Europe really wants, then they can keep it. Maybe they don't realize that workers don't magically become "productive" out of the womb. Nor do they when someone hands them a diploma. Productivity increases with experience.
Well, I guess someone should point that out to all the US corporations who consider their over-30 programmers to be out-of-code commodities to be disposed of.
Why exactly? What is the benefit to society in having poorly-paid "menial" jobs?
This
Unions your time is past. Your corruption and protection of the losers has been documented and broadcast, you killed yourselves with your greed and mismanagement.
Yup. The change from Wertkauf to Walmart was a huge drop in quality and buying experience. I also know from a former Wertkauf employee that Walmart tried to make their workers sing the "Walmart song" every day before work. They quickly dropped the idea though, before any of their brillant US management staff could get hurt.
Unfortunately, the next step down (quality-wise) or up (price-wise) the ladder was the change from Walmart to real (Metro group), who is now dominating the food retail market in its segment.
I can't site a source but a visit to Germany would make it obvious how they do this. The strong labor unions make it too expensive for large businesses that want an army of interchangeable meat puppets to work for pennies. This gives the small local businesses an strong advantage so you get many more small businesses. There are extremely few chain restaurants so the minimum wage unskilled jobs just aren't there. This results in people working in family owned businesses and often making a career of it. The food is far more expensive, but you're being served by someone who is proud of a restaurant they feel responsible for.
Unfortunately, all of this results in a much higher cost of living. Germans are culturally accustomed to this and the system works for them. Most Americans would claim poverty if they had to live as most Germans do. Americans have a vastly different idea of what's "necessary" for living in comfort.
Another one hit out of the park.
You want a better job than minimum wage? EARN IT
Study, do a little research into what careers are in demand and which are dead ends and drying up.
Then get an education, an apprenticeship, an internship, and get your foot in the door and hustle. Show you deserve the job, that you are willing to work and not just a slacker who wants to waste the company's time.
Is it hard work and effort? Yes, but that's how you get ahead in the world. Just sitting around playing video games and/or getting drunk/high gets you no where...
Well, not really the only recourse. Moving on to better jobs is another. But i'm not arguing the merits for or against, just commenting on how unhealthy it appears to be and how it perpetuates a condition. If you were constantly at war with your spouse, do you see the relationship lasting? I would think it would be long past time to separate.
Useless people shouldn't have to work?
Working people shouldn't have to pay taxes to support them.
Are you suggesting just shooting them in the head?
That's because it's impossible. Unless you're one of America's slave countries, like Germany, that depends on America to throw it a bone economically and militarily. If I were Amazon I would use robots like this economically illiterate member suggested. There is no such thing as structural defecits.
That sounds decidedly Marxist
HAHAHAHAHAHHA, you watch way too much Star Trek.
Unproductive people are a drain. There are already a lot more than enough workers for everyone to work less than 40 hour workweeks, and many employers have switched to primarily part time workers, but there is no vacation days or benefits for those workers.
Society needs a major cultural shift and human nature needs to change before what you're suggesting is even remotely possible.
Hi Amazon,
I'm not saying you ought to do business around here.
But if you do, please do it in a decent way.
Pay you workers a decent wage and and pay your taxes where you turn a massive profit.
Amazon got 7,1 Mio â directly off of the german state and pays *nill, nada, nothing* here. Their german profits (some 8,7 billion (!) bucks) are sucked up by a Amazon EU S.a r.l. (Luxemburg, tax haven) ;)
Any thoughts? :)
Yea European economy is really booming!
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Your purchasing model treats the services of searching and aggregating product listings as an externality that you expect society as a whole to bare while you enjoy a free rider effect.
Society has to get naked? The Bill of Rights guarantees the right to wear sleeveless shirts?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
The minimum wage is/was *supposed* to be for kids in or just out of high school, college students, etc.
.85 MW .70 MW
If this is the case, then why was the law not written to reflect this?
Minimum Wage = MW
Under 22 Wage =
Under 18 Wage =
Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
That is not the statement I was responding too., It was the implication that in the US movies unions are not portrayed as bad people.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
If you aren't in China, you have no sense of irony or it just didn't kick in before you hit post.
Somehow you got the impression the labor market is static. I guess if you aren't even aware that it's dynamic no one should be listening to your avariced advice. There are jobs under a living wage. This allows all of society to benefit from cheaper goods. Those workers move up the ladder as they gain experience.
A strike is a bunch of people deciding to take unauthorized unpaid vacation at the same time, not a bunch of people quitting their jobs.
Not in Germany.
Here, if the labor unions follow the rules (which they usually do) a strike is people taking an authorized (not by the employer but by the law) leave of absence to bring the employer to the negotiation table.
German labor unions aren't using strikes as excessively as the unions in other European countries seem to do, thus the whole systems works out fine for everybody involved most of the time.
I have no idea what a union would have been like, but I have worked in a factory. It wasn't in the same line of business, but I do recognize the notion of being worked to death and cared about very little. You're lucky it was only 8 hours, my factory had no qualms about working you for 12, then idling you for part of the next day so you got no overtime.
As you say, paid like crap, treated like crap, disposable. $0.25 is a good raise, kinda. At least when you compare it to the $0.05, $0.10 and $0.15 raises I remember. I especially remember that nickel raise. It was supposed to be $0.25, but they found some reason to cut everyone's pay by the same. They said that they didn't feel right about cutting the *entire* raise, though, so they let us keep a nickel.
Yay.
Not really cumbersome, but about twice-thrice as expensive.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
"Arbeit macht frei"
They say that, but I feel less free now than I did before I joined the workforce.
In the EU the seller has to handle all issues and warranty claims, for 2 years.
Naive little European, how's your powerful union system that can barely manage to get 1 out of 23 workers to even respect your strikes?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Orrrrrrr find another job that pays more. If they are still sticking around with Amazon's pay then most likely they can't find a better job and they are attempting coercion to the only company willing to hire them.
Well in Amazon's case, the company is losing money...
If it breaks, the company pays a local repair guy to come to my shop to fix it.
If I know exactly what I want, what's the point in paying more at a local store? If I need some assistance though, then buying local makes sense.
That's not right. Our expression is "(Aber) Man hat schon Pferde vor der Apotheke kotzen gesehen." A translation might be "(But) Horses have been seen vomitting in front of a pharmacy". It's a phrase that's added after describing a very unlikely situation, which may nonetheless happen, e.g. "Given X and Y, I doubt that Z will happen ... but horses have been seen ..."
Actually, here it's "I've seen a horse vomit in front of a pharmacy", meaning everything is possible...
Supply and demand applies to labor, too (a point which Amazon drives home when unemployment is high). If the employer holds the power over the employee, they drive wages down. Why then is it so wrong when the employee holds the power and seeks to drive the wages up?
I just hope they continue to stand up to the unions. The time for unions is long in the past, and they do nothing but distort the market now.
Alter Aeon Multiclass MUD - http://www.alteraeon.com
The physical appearance of the fine makes no difference.
Amazon is so horribly money-losing that the founder is a billionaire and has his own space travel company?
Fact is that Amazon could run a profit if they wanted to, just deciding to invest everything back.
So they are just like corporate management and govt?
Which is why Germany is devoid of industry, commerce, and civilization, obviously.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Yes, that was the good intention which together with other good intentions paved the road to the continued Depression which in turn was only "cured" by the World War and destruction or re-purposing of the industrial capacity of most of the rest of civilized world.
I don't respond to or upvote ACs
"Krauts"? Really? Get your head out of WWII already. It's over for everybody but the crappy History Channel. THE WORLD HAS MOVED ON.
As far as Aldi goes, it must be a lot better in Germany. The ones in the US carry weird products that are often comparable to what you see at an Big Lots.
The 400 Euro mini-job is probably the equivalent.
Very funny. You think it's still 1950.
Vocational schools are still very much alive and kicking in today's world, despite what you may have been led to believe.
No User Serviceable Parts Inside was the motto of the last half of the 20th Century. Now it's more like Ending is better than Mending.
OK, so maybe your laptop doesn't have any "user serviceable parts," a contention with which I still beg to differ, but you know what does? Your vehicles, buildings, HVAC systems, plumbing, electrical generation, transmission, and distribution, factory robots (like the one that made your laptop), et. al.
Believe me, so long as technology exists, there will be a need for people who know how to fix it.
The old time TV/Radio repair shops are virtually extinct. Last one I saw did primarily replacements on projector bulbs.
A guy in my town opened an LCD/LED/Plasma repair joint last year, and has to continually hire new people to keep up with demand. Kinda seems like the industry is evolving more than "going extinct."
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
While this is what is the core of the conservative mindset it by no means is limited to the US so there's no need to apologize.
Oh yea, I know, but that doesn't keep me from feeling a compulsion to.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
My German uncle can cuss for a hour without repeating himself.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Walmart left Germany because it was a bad place to do business for Walmart .
Capisce?
To be honest, if you have student debt, you probably aren't smart enough to truly deserve college to begin with. I'm literally getting paid to go to school, and it isn't even hard to do; you don't even need good grades. (Though I do have a 4.0 GPA, it had no bearing on the fact that after all expenses, the school cuts me a check for $1,250 per semester just for attending their institution.)
All you have to do is sign up for FAFSA. That lands you the federal pell grant in most cases, and many universities themselves offer their own grant that they give to you based on your FAFSA results.
I'll be finishing school with a cash surplus, not a debt.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Income inequality is the real devil here. The flatter the line is the better off everyone is, even the super rich.
Why? Most people who talk about this seem more interested in beating down the rich than in helping the poor get richer. You are no exception. Why the jealousy of the rich? Who cares what other people have?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
The people complaining about the horrible, just horrible conditions at Amazon would appear to have never had to work a low-paid, low-skill production-line job.
Tell me about it. I worked a summer before college in a recycling plant. Awful, dirty, and hazardous place. Some of the people there were doing it full time for a living. It impressed on me why I was going to college.
The important point is to add up the total cost that an american would have to pay in order to get the same benefits.
You're assuming that the American would want exactly those benefits. If they don't want a particular benefit, whether in general or just Denmark's particular implementation of it, the American can choose to save the money or find an alternate benefit more to his or her liking, while the Danish citizen has no choice but to pay the tax and accept whatever benefits the state chooses to provide. Fundamentally, the problem with tax-funded programs isn't their cost, it's the way they take away individuals' ability to choose how to spend their income.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
If they don't want a particular benefit, whether in general or just Denmark's particular implementation of it, the American can choose to save the money or find an alternate benefit more to his or her liking, while the Danish citizen has no choice but to pay the tax and accept whatever benefits the state chooses to provide.
Ah, the old "freedom of choice" argument. For example, Americans are free to get medical care or insurance that they can't afford, or to be in debt for the rest of their lives to get a college education. Now that's freedom!
I recall the Bill of Rights listing many important freedoms, but I don't recall the "right to get screwed" being in there.
Amazon is probably the best in the world when it comes to logistics. They didn't get there because of human laborers, they won't stay the best because of human laborers. If Germans do not wish to be employed as laborers at Amazon distribution facilities then that is their choice. There are plenty of robots waiting in line to replace them.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
Bullshit, they have a union. Workers bargain collectively with the employer, what's wrong with that? Forming and joining unions is a human right. Your kind and your "be glad you have a fucking job, slave" mentality are sickening.
And as the head of a then non-union airline said in the early eighties, "any company that gets a union deserves one." Treat your workers fairly and they won't unionize, it's that simple. Hate unions? Treat your workers like human beings rather than machines or pack animals and you won't have to deal with one.
Free Martian Whores!
Mod parent up. Let's see the if the Invisible Hand will save the workers.
And that's why I think some form of socialism is the way to go. Too few people want to pay for other people. And especially not if they are not sure most of the money will go to the needy (e.g. it goes to making some rich person even richer).
But in the end they may end up paying anyway - as victims of crime, or in increased costs (prevention of crime or handling, prosecution and incarceration of criminals). Not everyone will choose to die quietly when they have no job, no money and no food.
So the question is how little can you pay, and which of the options would be least evil. You could of course live in an isolated environment and thus pay a lot less to everyone else, but most people are social animals.
That said we can't afford to pay for people to raise many children who we also have to pay for and so forth (exponential problem). So if you are living off welfare you shouldn't be allowed to produce more children unless you can find willing and able sponsors for them.
well in "Flight" the union was a bad guy.
any hoffa movie ever made.
Naive little American, how's your minimum wage that just keeps shrinking and shrinking working out for your economy?
It's falling in lockstep with the shrinking skills of the average high school graduate. Thanks for asking.
I'm glad my taxes can help put a poor ass like you through college without debt. Maybe after you graduate into the real world your condescending attitude will shift a bit.
I am thinking that most of those corporations measure productivity by hours spent in front of a computer, which means they see younger programmers working 80 hours a week spitting out the same code that would take an older programmer 40 hours to be "more productive".
But your point is well taken; perception of productivity is pretty messed up and I think that explains a big part of why these workers are striking.
In the eventual situation that all non-creative jobs are fully automated, what does the rest of the population do? Only a subset of the entire population is creative enough to do art, solve issues, or come up with truly novel ideas. The other 90% of the population will have no work available. Unemployment will slowly go up over time. You best start planning for welfare or finding something for them to do.
We can't have 90% of the population being effectively "poor". They need to have money and need to be at least content and preferably happy and healthy, otherwise society will collapse.
Working people shouldn't have to pay taxes to support them.
That's begging the question. We could all just agree to live in a society together, where those who can will do, and those who can't will do whatever they can with the rest of society all helps to ensure that everyone, collectively, has a good life.
Of course, that's looking suspiciously like Communism, and that doesn't mesh well with politicians' us-vs-them polarized view of the world.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Yeah it wasnt like the 4 major areas were not still stinging from a world war or anything.
Let's imagine this was a reading test. Explain the following sentence: "The same was true in the 50's and 60's, but the 100+ year ago example proves that it wasn't just a post-WWII fluke."
Yeah if you ignore The french revolution, Napoleon, and WWI, and the English trying to force down rebellion across most of their colonies.
You should also work on your history. The French Revolution preceded the Napoleonic Wars, which ended in 1815. If those wars led to bad economic conditions in Europe almost 100 years after they ended, then please explain why the Civil War, which ended 50 years after the Napoleonic Wars, didn't have a similar effect on the American economy. Also, last I checked, WWI started in August 1914. Do the arithmetic. Here's a clue: it's December 2013. As for the English (British actually) "trying to force down rebellion across most of their colonies", that's the cost of having an empire, but the net effect was positive for the British economy. If it wasn't, they would have simply abandoned the empire. Not to defend imperialism, but those are the economic facts. Lastly, if you knew anything about the British Empire, you'd know that one of the most surprising things about it was that it was run on a shoestring budget.
Also if you ignore the major cause of those wars was 'no jobs' and poverty due to heavy taxes and heavy manipulation of their currencies...
Please do enlighten historians with your novel views of the causes of the Napoleonic Wars and WWI. The only shred of truth (perhaps inadvertent) in what you say is related to taxes on French peasants - which were due to the aristocracy being exempted.
Until 1940 there was *no* min wage in the US.
What an important factoid! Which doesn't change what I said about American industrial wages 100+ years ago.
I have bought foreign cars. There are steep tariffs on those cars. Usually as much as 5-20% of the car cost.
5-20%? Do you actually believe the numbers you make up? The tariff on imported cars is 2.5%.
I get that seeing horses vomit is seeing the impossible because horses can't vomit, but where does the pharmacy come in?
Seriously, if you don't want the work don't take it. Nobody forces you to work at Amazon
And, what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
A strike is when you take a job, agreeing to the terms of it, and then refuse to do what you agreed to at an inopportune time in an attempt to force your employer to change the terms of your agreement... which is totally different from not taking a job you feel does not meet the terms you want.
Minimum wage is not enough for a single person to live alone. They would have to choose between food or a roof over their head.
Seriously, if you don't want the work don't take it. Nobody forces you to work at Amazon
And, what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
You can argue that strikes are good, but that argument didn't cut it.
The grand-parent was arguing that if you don't like the work, you should find another one.
You argue that this is what a strike is; wrong. The company is prohibited by law from firing strikers. So striking is "having the cake and eating it too".
(also, I modded you "flamebait" by accident, and I am undoing it now)
You assume that value is 100% objective, the same for everyone. That is of course wrong. If I buy soft drink for a dollar, I do it because I value soft drink more than a dollar; the soft drink company does it because it values a dollar more than the soft drink.
Voluntary transactions are not a zero-sum game. Suppose I have two hammers and no nails; you have 100 nails and no hammer. Both of us need to hammer 50 nails. If you give me 50 nails and I give you one hammer, both sides profit.
Aldi Lidl quality products
lolwut?
You have obviously never visited an American supermarket. European consumer protection has created a fairly high base level for quality. American supermarkets sell a lot of crap that Aldi & Lidl would not be allowed to sell in Europe.
Minimum wage is not enough for a single person to live alone. They would have to choose between food or a roof over their head.
I won't disagree with that, because it's true, but my point is that's what the minimum wage is supposed to provide: the minimum amount of fiscal security necessary for a single person living alone to survive on. Age nor education status have anything to do with it, as OP contended.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
No, it's called reality. Why should I work to support some lazy idiot who can work but won't?
Forget that. People in actual need are one thing, but the growing welfare culture, forget it.
Nothing wrong with it.
Just like there is nothing wrong with the company firing the worker who didn't have as much power as he thought he did.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Times change, the economy changes (inflation, local cost of living etc.), labour supply changes, business practices change, working environment changes.
At some point you do need to renegotiate the terms of the agreement.
It's nice to see capitalism at work. Companies who squeezed workers, are now enjoying pushback from workers.
We can discuss outsourcing, robots, & economic trends forever, but the bottom line at Amazon is holiday shipments, and their leadership appears to have failed to keep worker moral high enough to deliver. The same statement applies to some fast food companies in the US and factories in China.
Job demand outweighed supply during the recession. Now that economies are picking up this imbalance is correcting. Those companies not smart enough to adapt will die. Unless US socialists again protect their friends companies who are "to big to have to compete".
Yeah it wasnt like the 4 major areas were not still stinging from a world war or anything.
Let's imagine this was a reading test. Explain the following sentence: "The same was true in the 50's and 60's, but the 100+ year ago example proves that it wasn't just a post-WWII fluke."
Ok I will explain. You are cherry picking numbers. Clear enough? You are ignoring the fact that europe regularly wiped itself out every 20-30 years. WWI and WWII were both extensions of poverty. You do not end up at poverty overnight.
Yeah if you ignore The french revolution, Napoleon, and WWI, and the English trying to force down rebellion across most of their colonies.
You should also work on your history. The French Revolution preceded the Napoleonic Wars, which ended in 1815. If those wars led to bad economic conditions in Europe almost 100 years after they ended, then please explain why the Civil War, which ended 50 years after the Napoleonic Wars, didn't have a similar effect on the American economy. Also, last I checked, WWI started in August 1914. Do the arithmetic. Here's a clue: it's December 2013. As for the English (British actually) "trying to force down rebellion across most of their colonies", that's the cost of having an empire, but the net effect was positive for the British economy. If it wasn't, they would have simply abandoned the empire. Not to defend imperialism, but those are the economic facts. Lastly, if you knew anything about the British Empire, you'd know that one of the most surprising things about it was that it was run on a shoestring budget.
and.... again you like to cherry pick what you are saying. I was being quite broad in my list of wars. Those are *not* the only wars they were involved in. You do not end up with nazi's saying 'hey free work if you are fit white guy' and people looking the other way overnight.
Also if you ignore the major cause of those wars was 'no jobs' and poverty due to heavy taxes and heavy manipulation of their currencies...
Please do enlighten historians with your novel views of the causes of the Napoleonic Wars and WWI. The only shred of truth (perhaps inadvertent) in what you say is related to taxes on French peasants - which were due to the aristocracy being exempted.
And again you consider yourself a "historian"? With more cherry picking? Massive currency manipulation and taxation is the only way you end up with your currency being worthless. The aristocracy took advantage of that by creating a 'slave' class of indentured servitude. How do you think they did that? Oh thats right thru loans, taxes, and outright 'legal' theft. You think you end up with civil and 'global' wars because everyone is happy? Would you like to explain that one to the class?
Until 1940 there was *no* min wage in the US.
What an important factoid! Which doesn't change what I said about American industrial wages 100+ years ago.
Ah but you wanted to imply that min wage was how our great country ended up where it is. Again you are cherry picking... AND leaving out http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/coverage.htm It was expanded across all industries in 1961 with exceptions. By 1977 it was everywhere (and the following recession it kicked off within 1-2 years on top of the oil guys taking advantage of it)
I have bought foreign cars. There are steep tariffs on those cars. Usually as much as 5-20% of the car cost.
5-20%? Do you actually believe the numbers you make up? The tariff on imported cars is 2.5%.
Yes. My last car was 6000 for taxes. For 'import' remember there are more than just federal taxes involved. So yes I do believe my numbers. You however seem to only be able to use google to back up your cherry picked 'facts'.
My conclusion from your rant is you do not like being 'wrong' and like to cherry pick random factoids to suppo
The EU is a free market, so the only extra costs are shipping. This is one of the reasons loads of multinationals are located in Ireland... they have full access to the EU, with Ireland's low corporation tax.
Unless Amazon has injected their workers against their will, no one is forcing these people to work there. They knew what they were signing up for, agreed to the contract and now begin to complain that "its just not fair, we want more money."
Tough noogies. You signed a contract, you accepted the wage. Quit and work somewhere else if you are so ungrateful to have a paying job.
Bearded Dragon
Easy exit for this situation..... Don't work overtime, get fired,
Losing money on paper to avoid having to pay their fair share of taxes.
And shut the whole freak show down.
Yes indeed, for Danish top earners the cumulative tax is about 72%.
And then there is the roughly 198% tax on cars...
But all together, as a nation they are doing fine.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
This comment is sausage to me.
Nope, it just seems that way because all German words sound a bit evil/angry/cursing. My favorite is "Ich liebe katzen!' which most people in the US hear and look horrified.
On a national scale it would result in a section of commerce and industry that's -by design- unproductive.
See, what's different in the German (Rhinelandic) model compared to the American (Anglo-Saxon) model is the Germans don't really admire some company owner walking off with lots of money but leaving the support of the impoverished masses to society or the church.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
A very valid and on-topic question, he who modded this Flamebait should grow up.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Your last sentence is the gist of what was at the end of WWII known as the Marshal Plan, the then-USA figured they could keep going back to a feudal Europe once every generation to sort the infighting or help them set up an economy to support themselves and become a great trading partner for the US.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Not that there are companies going out of business and leaving you to dry.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Hmm, the Amazon employees have given the company plenty of time to get on the negotiating table with a fair offer, this isn't something of the last few weeks or even months.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Let me see if I can work around your inability to use the quote tag correctly.
You are ignoring the fact that europe regularly wiped itself out every 20-30 years. WWI and WWII were both extensions of poverty.
What do WWI and WWII have to do with 100+ years ago? The period between the Napoleonic Wars and WWI is famous for being a century of relative peace in Europe. As for "extensions of poverty", please explain how that applies to WWI. The causes of that war have been debated endlessly, but "extensions of poverty" is a new one.
I was being quite broad in my list of wars.
Yes, listing wars that have no conceivable bearing on what you're talking about is being "quite broad".
And again you consider yourself a "historian"?
No - nor did I ever imply I was. If I was an historian, then I would have a serious advantage in this debate. The sad thing is that I need no such advantage.
Ah but you wanted to imply that min wage was how our great country ended up where it is.
No, you made an inference without an implication. "You wanted to imply" is a ludicrous statement. How do you know what I wanted? Do you claim to be able to read minds?
For 'import' remember there are more than just federal taxes involved.
As there are for domestic cars. However, all tariffs are federal taxes. You were the one who was talking specifically about tariffs, so why are you changing the subject to include all taxes?
My German uncle can cuss for a hour without repeating himself.
Big deal. A typical New Yorker can curse for an entire day without repeating himself, though it would be much shorter if he only used English.
Business is war, not a matter of "gratitude" because employment isn't a "gift". Collective bargaining is the only way otherwise valueless workers have leverage. One ant is nothing, but an army of ants is very different.
Very true. But I have a problem when the Army of Ants start feeling that they have a right to always win because "They are real people." The world does not have an obligation to take the unions side. I as a rational outside observer I should be able to take the corporations side without the guilt.
My biggest problem is that people have the right to work. If a person does not want to join a union they should not have to. This includes strike-breakers. If it weakens the army to bad.
This is all disregarded in cases of public safety where the only rational choice is to have government intervention.
I was born in and live in the US and am in my fifties. The anti-union indoctrination is by mass media which are the real groomers of public opinion, not schools or Hollywood.
When I was growing up there was much more pro-union sentiment than today. The shift to the Right by the two US political parties has much to do with the change. It's popular now to blame unions for the collapse of incompetently run businesses such as the old auto and steel industries.
The South especially is anti-union. I live not far from the Enersys plant which closed as a famous act of union busting but is kept in use, IMO to avoid having to clean up the site. The media here are anti-union and they shape public opinion through repetition.
This sort of conduct was and is unfortunately considered acceptable and does not meet with the level of public opposition required to stop it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/14/national/14union.html?pagewanted=print&position=&_r=0
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
In the EU the seller has to handle all issues and warranty claims, for 2 years.
And Amazon deals with warranty replacement so much better than any local store that any comparison is embarrassing: with the latter the only way to get service is often to mention that as a member of a consumer protection organization I won't have to pay for my lawyer. With Amazon, reporting that an underwater camera after 13 months is not working properly meant a full refund "since we are not carrying any more that model".
American customer satisfaction + European customer protection is the way to go.
The thing is when work loathing people like that are forced into jobs, I think in many cases they will actually make their employing company worse off than if the position had remained vacant. An incompetent, work hating rebel can do a lot of damage when they're not being sacked and I'm sure there are thousands in large companies going un-noticed. They can cost the company financially and destroy the quality of the company's products or services. They can end up costing the economy more than the basic social benefits they could have been paid not to work.
Your ad here.
UH, many of us Europeans are pretty sure it's Amazon that is threatening the existence of their own employees and by consequence, the future of the company in the EU.
A company that underpays their staff lowers their value and their own value within the national economy, if they close down there's very little, if any, of value lost.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
The union says Amazon workers receive lower wages than others in retail and mail-order jobs
So go work in retail and mail-order. What am I missing here? If all of these Amazon workers could go get these other jobs that supposedly pay more, why are they still working for Amazon? A company can only get away with what people are willing to work for. If nobody was willing to work for what they're paying then nobody would. The whole point of unions is to try and artificially force companies to pay more than what the market dictates.
Sure. But just because there are shittier workplaces than Amazon doesn't mean that Amazon should represent the gold standard. (And granted, you never said that it should.)
As some other countries demonstrate, the average worker (citizen / voter) CAN have a higher income and better social services (health, education).
Successive US governments will claim they have no money to provide such services, then turn around and waste trillions in useless endeavors.
Or they won't raise the minimum wage while passing tax-cuts for the wealthy.
It's not the Glorious Market making these decisions. It's politicians; bought and paid for by the business lobby.
So hows's your massive student debt and your shitty economy helping you and your slightly above minimum wage job then?
Those are some interesting assumptions you're making there. I, for one, have no debt except my mortgage, and my job pays approximately 12 times minimum wage - and I'm not even a CEO of anything. The shitty economy is helping keep prices down, so it kinda helps actually. So, to quote Roger Waters - I'm all right Jack, keep your hands offa my stack. This is not to say that I'm actually in favor of any of a number of undesirable things going on in our present economy, but your assumption that we're all just barely getting by is simply incorrect.
Working people shouldn't have to pay taxes to support them.
That's begging the question. We could all just agree to live in a society together, where those who can will do, and those who can't will do whatever they can
And what if we don't all just agree to that? Why shouldn't creative, productive and capable people enjoy the fruits of their labors, instead of having them taken away and given to somebody else? Why should I be your beast of burden? Of course, we already know the answer to that - the proletariat is larger numerically, and so any democratic society inevitably trends toward socialism. God forbid anybody should try to get ahead.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
If they don't want a particular benefit, whether in general or just Denmark's particular implementation of it, the American can choose to save the money or find an alternate benefit more to his or her liking, while the Danish citizen has no choice but to pay the tax and accept whatever benefits the state chooses to provide.
Ah, the old "freedom of choice" argument. For example, Americans are free to get medical care or insurance that they can't afford, or to be in debt for the rest of their lives to get a college education. Now that's freedom!
Let me clue you in - you have created a false dichotomy there. Those are not the only options in America. I have a college education, medical insurance I can afford, and no debt except the mortgage on my house. And I wasn't born rich, either - far from it.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Where the hell are my mod points? Oh right, since I saved up a bunch and didn't use them, they got redistributed to those who blew all of theirs. Maybe one of them can mod you up.
In a sane world a strike at the busiest time of year would be seen as a clear case of extortion and would not be legal. Such nuttiness will add incentive to greater replacement of human workers by automation.
Bit company bootlicker? No, simply no fan of extortion and someone sensible enough to know that no one owes me a job just by virtue of my existing. I am a huge fan of actual freedom of people and groups to voluntarily interact with each other to mutual benefit. But I don't consider breaking a contract and demanding another under an extortion situation to be voluntary interaction so much or reasonable behavior. At the very least in a sane world I would expect the company to be able to fire all people doing this at its first convenience.
No, if they aren't going to earn their keep, and especially if they are the kind of scum who are going to damage an employer, then instead of paying them not to work, you remove them from society, with either a bullet or put them outside the fence in the wild to fend for themselves. You don't encourage them to be lazy and destructive.
What are you going on about? You're one of the biggest spewers of dogmatic libertardian bullshit on this site!
A lot of those folks you claim can but won't work are stuck in that doldrum on purpose. If you take a minimum wage job, you lose your welfare and food stamps. We all know though that a family of one person can't live on a minimum wage job so what is a family of 3 or 4 supposed to do? The system is rigged so that once you fall into the welfare hole, you can't get back out. So if the choice is to go work 12hrs a week at $7.40/hr at the Dollar General and lose the $400/mo food stamp allotment then I guess I am gonna have to not work so me and the kids don't starve. Oh and we'll lose our Section 8 housing too. Yeah guess I'll stay home. You'd make the same damned decision yourself if you were brought up like many of them are. Even if you were brought up in a poor home with little to no educational opportunity but still managed to get all boot-strappy and rise above them, this is a outlier case. Most people get fucked and can't get out of the hole they are in. They just aren't smart enough, wealthy enough, or connected enough to move up the ladder. Cold and callous people like you, who look snidely down your noses at all those beneath you really deserve a good ol karma kick in the balls. One day when you lose everything you have, I hope no one is there to help you, and simply scream "get a job ya freeloadin bum!"
BOOM! HEADSHOT! You won't get a response from that guy. You pwned him. Too bad you had to AC that one. The karma is well deserved.
So what? I actually think we SWAPPED playbooks. Germany is prospering and we are....well...ya know who else disarmed, demonized, spied, and authoritatively controlled his citizenry, don't you?
Who cares what other people DON'T have? Oh yeah, the rich.
What companies are those? I thought the point of that company was to make a profit for themselves and their shareholders by spending the smallest amount possible on supplies and overhead while selling for the highest price the market would bear? We have been continually bombarded with that message here on /. and told that altruisms like "providing jobs for the community" were not the goal at all and to use that argument was stupid on our part. Yet now, with the tables turned, you want to raise that flag? I find it repulsive.
The US military is hands-down the best in logistics anywhere. We can get more people, with all of their stuff, to any place in the world usually within 72 hours. Given a week or 2, you'll have an entire base or 10 built. Not to mention, who else can deliver piping hot munitions through your front door in 30 mins or less? NO ONE!!!!
Does Amazon mimic the military way of logistics? I dunno, but a smart company would. Hell, they're already getting drones....
ALWAYS pray the deal doesn't get altered any further.
Mitch, your time has passed. Report to the Soylent corporation for processing. What? You don't wanna be processed into a cracker? If only there were some group of people who would stand up for you! Sadly, you ran them away.
Of course some people are getting by, but your anecdote is hardly a statistic.
What about the 10's of millions that arent doing well or even ok?
wth? Where did you get that from?
*No one* who talks about this is interested in beating down the rich, and I am no exception.
Supply side economics: If the wealthy have more money someone is more likely to build a factory.
Traditional economics: If most people have more money more factories will likely be built to satisfy demand.
Supply side economics (voodoo economics if you remember) is a LIE that only continues because a handful of people at the top benefit a lot *right now*. But even they realize that it's a long term loser for the whole economy.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
I've always assumed that only students, entry level young people, etc. should be expected to live at that level. I don't actually think we're in complete disagreement.
It's too bad that my minor point caught so much attention, probably at the expense of my main point.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
No, no misconceptions. You didn't argue against a single point I made, go read again. lol indeed.
You are talking about the mechanics of how people get paid which is complete unrelated to the point(s) I made -save labor unions, and your post backs up mine. "That is when people started seeing that 90% of what unions were needed for was already encoded into law and their remaining usefulness was mostly about greed of income". Ahem, unions were harder to break before, and easier to break after.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
The only people I've heard mention supply side economics in a long time was from people mocking it. Even Bush tried to follow your idea of giving people more money to create demand, and later Obama tried the same thing.
In any case, you didn't answer the question of why income inequality is such a bad thing.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
There's a lot, but here's something
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/03/income-and-happ.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics#Criticisms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#Effects
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
It's basically modern slavery, they earn 5€ per hour, which for them is a lot of money, but would be ridiculously low for German living costs including insurance, health care and other expenses. [...] Now that a minimum wage (around 8€) was promised to be introduced in 2016 from the coalition of Germany's upcoming government, we'll see how things will develop.
Thank God they're going to outlaw jobs that pay people who are willing to work those jobs an amount they consider a lot of money! This will surely make both the employers willing to pay that amount and the employees gladly willing to work at the amount far better off.
They do work, they get paid for part of the value of their work (if they got paid the full value of their work, it wouldn't be profitable for their employer to hire them).
This is totally broken logic. Had you said, "They do work, they get paid for part of the value of the resulting good or service (if they got paid the full value of the resulting good or service, it wouldn't be profitable for their employer to hire them)," that would be a valid statement. As it stands, your statement is the equivalent of, "The only way an employer is able to make a profit is by screwing his employees." Note that I assume that the employer also brings something to the table, such as marketing, locating better suppliers, allowing economies of scale, and finding more efficient ways of producing the good or service. You know, the difference between working for yourself versus working as part of an organization (besides the ability to screw its employees).
I pity you your worldview.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
The minimum wage helps people the same way a minimum height would help short-asses.
yes, Aldi pays more than other supermarkets/discounters. The reasons are twofold: "if I pay them 30% more they work twice as much" (so the founder of aldi is quoted), plus you can abuse the workers more if all they see if they walk away is a serious drop in income.
Yeah, working for Amaz is just great. Easy to bump your pay though. Break stuff accidentally on porpoise, retrieve it, buff it, flog it on ebay. Takes 3 people to pull off. Gives a beautiful bump to your pay.
That is including community tax. You are getting confused by the tax on the last earned dollar, as this tax can be high, but total income tax will not increase above 51.7 % of the income. As you note, there are other taxes that muddles the picture, as these depend on how the tax earner lives his or her life.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
They do not outlaw jobs, they outlaw payment that is too low.
Those jobs will still exist, and will still be the same. It's not even a case of "immigrants steal our jobs", since most of those aren't jobs your regular German is willing to do anyway.
The previous German government consisting Christ Democrats and Liberals always opposed changes that might endanger jobs. Therefore they give large companies subsidies for energy costs, because they might built their next facility outside of Germany, which would mean less jobs, less taxes, no more economic growth. After all economic growth is their holy grail, working 40 hours a week, having plenty of buying power on their low salaries, which does check out because of rather low prices of inferior goods.
But things have changed a little bit after the last elections. The liberals didn't make the cut to get into the parliament, mostly because of their bad reputation from massive Lobbying, and their prior failure in the Bavarian elections, which caused a nationwide backlash. The Christ Democrats, having lost their longstanding coalition partner and only about a third (34.1%) of all votes, were faced with three left-wing Parties; the Social Democrats, The Left and the Green Party. All of them wanted minimum wages and tax increases for top earners. While The Left and the Green also had a number of very inconvenient ideas for the German economy, they weren't willing to give up, like 'not build' more lignite power plants, to 'not stop' subsidizing renewable energies, like it is still done with conventional energies, the Social Democrats were willing to compromise.
In the end a coalition between Christ and Social Democrats was formed, they agreed on a minimum wage, which doesn't adapt to inflation, they agreed on no tax increases and they agreed on the continuation of sodomizing the environment. They've found a new enemy which is killing, it's called "energy turnaround". If employers have to pay higher wages for workers they surely can't be brought up to pay energy costs as well - their internal logic. Therefore they want to put a stop for solar and wind power, promote energy from lignite plants, since there are a lot of lignite deposits here in Germany. Lignite extraction could create jobs on a large scale, which is good for the economy, never mind the COx emissions, China and India doesn't care much about that as well, so why should we do? (again, their logic not mine)
Which is a shame.
In your beloved country, anyone who is employed in a miserable way thinks:
That not so good, but one fine day I'll make it otta here and the I'll be the one who pays a shit.
So I keep on and keep reelecting the same people on and on and on and on.
That's not the case here in good old Europe. Except may be for the UK and parts of the southern or eastern ridges. ;)))
So standard of living here is pretty leveled out. Alt least for comparison.
No, it's not Marxism, btw.
Just quality of living and society.
The stuff we save on "intelligence" makes us live better.
Just my 2cents.
To be honest, if you have student debt, you probably aren't smart enough to truly deserve college to begin with.
There is no better proof that money has nothing to do with intelligence than this arse-gravy.
No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
Yes, I have done
Your contract, primarily, is with the retailer. If you take it back to them, THEY have to sort it, or you get refunded.
Now, they might try to suggest you hit the manufacturer warranty - indeed, this may be better than your stat rights, however you do not HAVE to use this
They do not outlaw jobs, they outlaw payment that is too low. Those jobs will still exist, and will still be the same.
Ok, then why stop at 8€/hour? Why not set the minimum wage at 100€/hour? By your logic, those jobs will still exist, they will be the same, but people will get an amazing salary to boot!
The rest is interesting but I'm just addressing the flawed economic reasoning behind minimum wage, not the particular politics of Germany.
It's 8€/hour because that's a reasonable, although still quite low, rate for the living costs in Germany, as well as a reasonable number compared to the other nations in central Europe. Now if there were no taxes and stuff, then perhaps ...
As a nation we hold human rights, especially human dignity, in high regards, at least that's what it says in our constitution. Yeah, that might be a flawed economic strategy, but it's in the first article of the German constitution. There are also laws that outlaw immoral low payment, but since "immoral low" isn't defined wages can be as low as 1€ per hour, because that's what the government apparently perceives as a dignified payment.
Hmm. Who are you to decide that 8€/hour is reasonable? Or some politicians attempting to plan the economy? Wouldn't people who are directly involved with that job - be it employing somebody or working that job - be better suited to decide what rate they are willing to work at or hire somebody out at? To put it in your terms: Does it not violate somebody's dignity to make it illegal for them to work at a rate which they have decided for themselves that they are willing to work at?
The misconception about minimum wage is that all the jobs that previously existed that paid less than the minimum wage will still exist, but will be paid more. Wouldn't that be great! Then of course it would be great to set the minimum wage as high as possible. The fact of the matter is that this is not the case, though. By setting a minimum wage of 8€/hour, you are outlawing any job which can only exist if it's paid at less than 8€/hour. True, there are some essential jobs which currently pay less than that and which will still be needed, so those jobs will now pay more. However, all the non-essential jobs that are worth less than 8€/hour will gradually disappear.
Ultimately all you are doing by imposing a minimum wage is restricting people's freedom - both those of the employers and those of the employees. Further, you are damaging one group of people - the most unskilled workers, whose labor is worth the least and will thus be first in line to be fired - in order to benefit another group of people - those who will still manage to have jobs after the minimum wage goes into effect. Do you not value all human rights equally? If you are for the minimum wage then you implicitly say that you value the human rights of the lesser skilled workers less than the human rights of the more skilled workers, since the former will be hurt by the minimum wage law.
The minimum wage helps people the same way a minimum height would help short-asses.
Care to expound on that?
Also, what would you suggest as an alternative?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
what the hell do you think a strike is, anyway?
Telling someone you want to work for them, but you're super bad at negotiating.
I suppose you could only perceive it the way German people do, when you've actually been living here for the past two decades, were able to observe how things changed first hand.
Trade Unions, that are composed by people working those jobs, decided that 8.5€/hour would be reasonable, the Social Democrats and the Green Party agreed, The Left wanted 10€ per hour. A lot of working class people are in Trade Unions, join strikes, that are very rare, like this one, but people in Trade Unions aren't welcome in all companies. Often they simply don't get employed when they state to be a member of one of the Trade Unions, since they're potential trouble makers. Officially it would be discrimination, but due to the free market the employer may find any other reason to not employ them.
On politicians attempting to plan the economy: Politicians have been planning, and are planned by, the economy for decades, accepting donations from company owners, coincidentally changing regulations in their favour. Today it's called Lobbying and has a clear direction "serve the economy, screw the public". It's legitimized corruption, since large companies can afford top notch Lobbying, representing the facts from their point of view, convincing the politicians that those new CO2 regulations would kill a lot of jobs, or even force them to move to another country where the regulations are less restricting. Then suddenly those new regulations are postponed or even canceled. The working citizens have nobody to represent them other than Trade Unions, since working class citizens simply lack the cohesion and leverage to achieve anything, all the do is to cast their vote every 4 years. One might think that politicians are representatives of the people. Here in Germany we also call the process of voting "die Stimme abgeben", which literally translates to "cede your voice", since hardly any politician cares about what you have to say once the election is over. And this isn't the case only here in Germany.
One of the reasons behind the idea of minimum wages in Germany are to counteract the development in the recent years where the labour force is exploited more and more. No job is stable anymore. Where unlimited working contracts were common a decade ago, even as an unskilled worker, and employers needed a reason to get rid of someone, which was still pretty easy in the case of lazy workers, today you can be glad if your contract gets extended beyond a single month as an unskilled worker. Because if you're employed longer then a month the company would have to grant you special rights. Due to the fear of losing their job a lot of people accept every crappy job they can, quit after a short time again, get moved around.
In the Bay Area of California the movie was the local news and the bad guys are the BART Union.
Heh.....replace supply side with demand side, everything will be great this time, right?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I would rather not, but yet I am forced to do so.
>> And then there's loading the randomly-sized packages onto the truck - as full as possible.
Many years ago, I did this basic problem for a mail order BBQ that needed to get the smallest box for each order. It was one SQL query on a PC. It is not that hard if you have a large sample of prior shipping data.
The unions are much the same as everywhere else in the world. They represent all the workers of a certain trade.
They claim to represent all the workers of a certain trade. They only actually represent their members.
Trade Unions, that are composed by people working those jobs, decided that 8.5€/hour would be reasonable, the Social Democrats and the Green Party agreed, The Left wanted 10€ per hour.
Doesn't union labor usually cost more than the minimum wage?
A lot of working class people are in Trade Unions, join strikes, that are very rare, like this one, but people in Trade Unions aren't welcome in all companies. Often they simply don't get employed when they state to be a member of one of the Trade Unions, since they're potential trouble makers. Officially it would be discrimination, but due to the free market the employer may find any other reason to not employ them.
I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to refuse to hire somebody because they're in a Trade Union. It seems that it should be the employers choice as to whom they choose to associate with.
On politicians attempting to plan the economy: Politicians have been planning, and are planned by, the economy for decades, accepting donations from company owners, coincidentally changing regulations in their favour. Today it's called Lobbying and has a clear direction "serve the economy, screw the public".
No, the direction is actually "serve the company, screw the economy and the public". Lobbying is awful. It is legitimized corruption, as you said, but it doesn't help the economy. It screws over other people in favor for themselves by using the force of law. It goes quite against the free market and I wholeheartedly agree that it shouldn't be allowed to happen.
The working citizens have nobody to represent them other than Trade Unions, since working class citizens simply lack the cohesion and leverage to achieve anything, all the do is to cast their vote every 4 years. One might think that politicians are representatives of the people. Here in Germany we also call the process of voting "die Stimme abgeben", which literally translates to "cede your voice", since hardly any politician cares about what you have to say once the election is over. And this isn't the case only here in Germany.
Yea, voting's not a great system. I think you don't realize that a free market is actually beneficial not only for employers but also for workers. Free market forces tend towards a worker being paid exactly what he is worth to the company - no more, but also no less. The more valuable a worker is, the higher his salary will go. Of course, his employer and all other employers want to pay him as little as possible for as much work as possible, and he wants to get paid as much as possible for as little work as possible. That's only natural. But the more productive he is, the more willing people will be to pay him more. Consider it from the context of filling a new position. You have two candidates, one of which is far more skilled than the other. You definitely want to pay them as little as possible, but you know if you offer too less the will turn you down. Imagine trying to hire a programmer for $5,000/year or something ridiculous - he will turn you down. The more skilled and productive he is, the higher a rate he can charge.
Now it's true a lot of companies pay people less than what they are worth... but then people end up leaving those companies. Like a bunch of people I've spoken to at a software company here in NY all say they are paid way less than they should be, and most of them have either left or are planning when to leave. Ultimately that hurts the company and more competitive companies will soak up the talent by offering them higher pay.
Now, if you have only one or a few companies in a town then they can offer less money because there's nowhere else for the workers to get a job. But that's a temporary situation. Given a free market - no government forces impeding entry to the market - other companies will flock to the place with cheap labor because it'll be profitable to do so. Bu
That depends on the the trade. Labor agreements can be declared generally binding in Germany, in which case they cover everyone in a certain trade, whether or not the employee is a union member and whether or not the employer is in the industrial association.
But in general, yes, you are right.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
My daughter receives the same information from her schools. I am trying to recall a recent movie (outside of Atlas Shrugged) or show where a big business was the hero and the unions were the bad guys.
Schools are Hollywood are the only place you'll hear praise for unions (Not really a surprise that in an institution of learning... facts prevail. And as a liberal, I have no problem admitting that Hollywood is pretty liberal... but as we all know, reality has a well known liberal bias:) ).
There isn't a single conservative voice in the country (news, politics, talk radio, etc) that is pro-union. At least none I've come across. If you know of one, please let me know. I'd be interested to hear how they justify the existence of unions to other conservatives in this climate.
I wrote a long reply yesterday in the evening, but somehow it got lost in the process of posting. I will break it down to the basics.
I do not believe in those neoliberal ideals anymore, because that doesn't seem to work over here, in fact it does appear to have been the cause of the fast social decay in Europe, every approach in that direction made it worse. Every little lenience that was given to the economy was exploited to the maximum extend within the shortest time, mostly at the cost of employees.
Here in Germany there are indicators that higher wages don't destroy the economy at all, throughout the states of Germany there is a positive correlation between average wages and economic power. Meaning that here in my federal state for example, unemployment is fairly low, risk of poverty is low, the average income is the highest of all states, which aren't merely a city; economically we are the 2nd strongest state.
Today it appears to be far too late to fix things just by deregulating the markets, give everyone sudden freedom. This would required radical changes in international laws since companies had the advantage to design the whole system for decades. Just take a look at the messed up financial market, it's probably the most deregulated marked, caused the most recent crisis and continues to use most ridiculous theories, because they seem to work most of the time.
I don't say that economic liberalism can't possibly work, just that it won't work under the current circumstances. At the moment it's an utopia, similar to the different directions of Anarchism, while it is very nice in theory it doesn't fit human mentality.
I read on the BBC News site a story of stress related illness manifesting in Amazon inventory picker position workers, I believe this was in the UK, due to a beeping countdown device that measured the duration of the pick effort. Truly Orwellian with a little 'mobile' minder. ... aw shit, I'm addicted.
I have curbed my purchases, and will continue to monitor, sites that use Amazon for physical fulfillment. There is plenty of margin available to pay the worker and/or adjust the working conditions. Uh, Kindle
I do not believe in those neoliberal ideals anymore, because that doesn't seem to work over here, in fact it does appear to have been the cause of the fast social decay in Europe, every approach in that direction made it worse. Every little lenience that was given to the economy was exploited to the maximum extend within the shortest time, mostly at the cost of employees. [...] I don't say that economic liberalism can't possibly work, just that it won't work under the current circumstances. At the moment it's an utopia, similar to the different directions of Anarchism, while it is very nice in theory it doesn't fit human mentality.
Yea that might very well be the case.
Today it appears to be far too late to fix things just by deregulating the markets, give everyone sudden freedom. This would required radical changes in international laws since companies had the advantage to design the whole system for decades.
Yea the transition part is always a difficult one. Though I heard a great analogy which applies here: a destroyed and abandoned church is not a good indicator of what things are like without religion. If we could have a system we know works then it'd be worth it trying to get there eventually. But there are many problems, a big one being that the people in power benefit from the current system and wouldn't want to change it, plus they get people dependent on the system so people will support it as well even if ultimately they'd be better off without it.
Just take a look at the messed up financial market, it's probably the most deregulated marked, caused the most recent crisis and continues to use most ridiculous theories, because they seem to work most of the time.
While it might be deregulated, it's not really unregulated. It's more set up to guarantee profit to the bankers whatever happens. They can take risks and get paid if they succeed, or get bailed out if they don't. It's really ridiculous. The thing with regulation is that it forms an intricate net wherein if you remove any one regulation, it's hard to tell what exactly will happen because of the interaction with all the other regulations. So it's not always the case that removing a particular regulation will lead to a freer and more efficient market, because there might be another regulation that leads to ridiculous behavior unless it's checked by other regulations.
Here in Germany there are indicators that higher wages don't destroy the economy at all, throughout the states of Germany there is a positive correlation between average wages and economic power. Meaning that here in my federal state for example, unemployment is fairly low, risk of poverty is low, the average income is the highest of all states, which aren't merely a city; economically we are the 2nd strongest state.
Oh but of course, it'd be extremely unlikely for higher wages to not be correlated with economic power. I'm not arguing against higher wages. If that's what you took from my posts then you're mistaken. Higher wages are great and of course the higher wages, the better. But is it really that higher wages lead to a powerful economy, or rather that higher wages are a natural result of a powerful economy? It's like saying that high prices are a sign of a strong economy - look how expensive new york and london and moscow are - so let's artificially increase all our prices so that our economy does better. Sound ridiculous? That's just what they did during the great depression. Somehow people thought that prices being low was the cause of the depression so they paid farmers to destroy food and not work to raise the prices of food... which is ridiculous.
Anyways, nice chatting!
Just like there's nothing wrong with a company overestimating its position and failing... or in that case it's just bailout and golden parachute time, right?
Given the number of outfits in China who offer to repair your failed laptop board I can see the market opportunity still exists. You just need different equipment, a reballing jig and hot air rework station instead of a soldering iron and oscilloscope.
Nope, nothing at all wrong with it. We have seen it in the US when they cannot find employees willing to work for low wages, they up and move the company to Mexico or India, or China. Thank goodness for free trade and Clinton to set it all rolling.
But you would have to be blind to think Amazon is overestimating their positioning here. To deal with the strike, they are simply transferring the work load to other countries and thanks to the EU trade agreements, it is working for them. So outside of being stuck paying a lease on some property inside Germany, Amazon will not fail at all. And most of that costs can be recouped with an add on delivery charge specific to Germany deliveries.