Google Testing Smart Appliance, Would Compete With Nest Thermostat

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Google Testing Smart Appliance, Would Compete With Nest Thermostat

Posted by timothy on Tuesday December 17, 2013 @04:30AM from the getting-warm-in-here dept.

cagraham writes "Google is currently testing a web-connected thermostat, similar to the popular Nest Thermostat, according to The Information. The device would display energy usage details, and allow user's to control it from a web app. This actually marks the second time Google has ventured into home energy, after their PowerMeter web app that was shut down in 2011. Web connected devices could allow Google access to a treasure trove of data on people's daily habits and routines."

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Fuck Google by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:34 · Score: 0, Troll

Yay! More data for Google to give to the NSA!! Wooooohoooooooo!
1. Re:Fuck Google by RustyTheCat · 2013-12-17 07:31 · Score: 2
  
  The very last thing I want is to hook up everything to the internet. It's just another target for someone to hack and also I've found the greater complexity of a device the greater the probability of failure and the harder and more expensive is the repair. On the very rare occasion my 25 year old clothes dryer needs maintenance whichever repair repair tech comes out always says don't get rid of it. The newer models are only good for about seven to ten years and then have to be scrapped because something breaks that is too expensive to fix.
2. Re:Fuck Google by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 07:58 · Score: 0
  
  Fuck you, asshole.
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
3. Re:Fuck Google by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:20 · Score: 0
  
  terists could turn up your heat you to death
4. Re:Fuck Google by kwardroid · 2013-12-17 10:08 · Score: 1
  
  Depending on use, you`ll save enough money to buy a new dryer every 10 years.
5. Re:Fuck Google by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 17:48 · Score: 0
  
  Fuck you, asshole.
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
6. Re:Fuck Google by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-18 05:14 · Score: 0
  
  Fuck you, asshole.
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
  Says the chickenshit loser who cannot even admit to who he is ...
Web connected by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

It doesn't say Cloud-connected, but then this is Google, a cloudy company. If I can't say no to the Cloud connection, I don't want it. But I do want to connect to it using an open protocol.
1. Re:Web connected by Nerdfest · 2013-12-17 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  They've been pretty decent with open protocols (although a little less recently), and they seem to have an interest in power saving as it helps keep their costs down for obvious reasons. Using their expertise to help lower peple power consumption while making money selling a product seems like a pretty decent idea. I think it'll likely ne network connected so you can control your therostat when away from the house for example, but I'm hoping it can be controlled without going through them as well. Not sure it will happen though, as they'll likely host a central control panel and some service that can be used on a variety of platforms without a lot of knowledge about setting up router firewalls, etc.
2. Re:Web connected by Lumpy · 2013-12-17 05:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Best thing to do then is build your own. because ANY commercial product will spy on you. None of these scumbag companies are interested in giving you control over your property.
  Plus it had better support more modern furnaces, the NEST only works with really old furnaces, it will not work with a Bryant Evolution or any of the other more modern HVAC systems that use rs485 full data communication to deliver more information back and forth.
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
3. Re:Web connected by pedrop357 · 2013-12-17 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  I've looked at the noncloud ones and will pay the extra money to have one that I can access and control entirely on my network. I have a Cisco ASA, and can make a VPN connection or expose the web interface on my terms if I want remote access.
  I see zero reason why I should need to connect to someone else's website just to make changes to something that has the power to enable those changes directly.
  I'm assuming the Nest and similar offerings from Honeywell don't have a web server onboard but instead expose an API. In that case, give me a locally run app that connects and manages it the same way as the cloud app does.
4. Re:Web connected by JaredOfEuropa · 2013-12-17 06:05 · Score: 1
  
  Any Home Automation product that sends data back to the Mothership will get a big fat "no" from me, but there are plenty of commercial solutions out there that do not phone home. If you're paranoid, run a packet sniffer on your LAN to see what's going on, then kill the device's outbound traffic at the router.
  
  Actually, there are some products that use a gateway service to allow you to connect while away from home, and I am willing to trust these. But I'm not going to hook up a device to my LAN if it comes for a company that is built on data mining.
  
  --
  If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
5. Re:Web connected by rikkards · 2013-12-17 09:03 · Score: 1
  
  Honeywell and I assume the nest basically talk back to their server and gets updates (think POP) Their Android and Apple Apps only talk directly to the server.
6. Re:Web connected by pedrop357 · 2013-12-17 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  The Nest and EcoBee (the other one I was thinking of) use cloud connectivity to do everything. If you don't have internet access, you can't just have your android app and your Nest/EcoBee/Honeywell for residential on the same internal network and be able to make changes or pull data.
7. Re:Web connected by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 15:04 · Score: 0
  
  Honeywell and I assume the nest basically talk back to their server and gets updates (think POP) Their Android and Apple Apps only talk directly to the server.
  Even my dlink webcam I have to block from communicating to some strange dlink server. I see it making requests when it's been "disabled" on the camera config page and still connecting to dlink. I block it myself on the firewall.
Now they know when I'm home by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:39 · Score: 1

Subject didn't turn on his heat tonight on a cold winter night, he must be out doing evil. Let's get this information to the NSA right away!
1. Re:Now they know when I'm home by istartedi · 2013-12-17 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  That's one problem. The other problem is the inevitably compromised "internet of things" that allows regular old criminals to pull up a list of "hot targets". They'll have a nice little map that shows them the optimal route to drive by houses where people aren't at home, and where their consumption of items from certain stores makes it a juicy target. Regular criminals won't have access to this technology of course. Just like any other business, the 1%er organized criminals will squeeze out Mom n Pop.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:41 · Score: 1

Am I the only one left that just wants to set my thermostat and leave it the F*** alone.
I don't need my appliances talking to the internet. I just want them to shut the F*** up and do what I tell them to do.
1. Re:Themostat by vikingpower · 2013-12-17 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  Amen, bro.
  
  --
  Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
2. Re:Themostat by afidel · 2013-12-17 04:55 · Score: 1
  
  Meh, being able to have cheap multizone temp monitoring seems like a cool use of technology to me. Plus with Nest you can silence the alarm in the kitchen and it will silence all the rest of the smoke alarms in the house for a period of time which is cool.
  
  --
  There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
3. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:56 · Score: 1
  
  This is Slashdot. You can say "fuck" here.
4. Re:Themostat by mlts · 2013-12-17 05:02 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I am a fan of the KISS principle.
  I like my refrigerator to keep things cold, perhaps make ice. Not act as a TV or entertainment center, nor share data with the world about the expiration date on the cottage cheese stashed in the crisper drawer [1]. Just run the refrigerant around in the tubes to move heat from the inside to the outside until it hits the right temperature, then stop doing so until the temperature warms up enough to restart the cycle.
  Same with my A/C or heater. Heat/cool until it hits the right temperature, stop, then resume working when the temperature rises or falls enough.
  I don't care to have to worry about additional Wi-Fi connections, security ramifications if the bad guys get on the internal Wi-Fi segment, mass data gathering. I want appliances to do their basic function, and that's that.
  The only connected exception would be smoke, water, and burglar alarms, and even then, it should only connect to a dedicated monitoring center and nowhere else.
  [1]: One rule -- if it gets on the Internet, it will eventually be public.
5. Re:Themostat by flyingfsck · 2013-12-17 05:11 · Score: 1
  
  You have not met my wife. She will walk into a room where I am sitting, change the thermostat or fan speed, then walk out. So I got to get up and set it back again. I have considered modifying things so it can't change, but that would be cruel.
  
  --
  Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
6. Re:Themostat by CohibaVancouver · 2013-12-17 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  I don't need my appliances talking to the internet.
  Last summer I was just driving onto the ferry to head to the cottage for a couple of weeks when I realized that I forgot to turn down the hot water heater. Sure would have been nice to have connected to the heater from my phone and dialed it down remotely.
7. Re:Themostat by Nerdfest · 2013-12-17 05:24 · Score: 2
  
  You need to set it up so that the positive feedback of using the control and display stil;l happens, but the temeperature does not change. It keeps everybody happy that way.
8. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  I have considered modifying things so it can't change, but that would be cruel.
  Disconnect the existing thermostat so that it does nothing, but is still available for her to change. Install new real thermostat in a hidden location.
  Why yes, I have been divorced twice. Is that somehow significant?
9. Re:Themostat by bmajik · 2013-12-17 05:36 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Quite right.
  I spent a few evenings recently learning about the Nest products. But the more I looked, the more I found stories of devices that failed to boot after software updates, or had other flakiness issues.
  I live in a part of the world where a thermostat failure would be a problem. The ambient temps were -20F last week. If the thermostat updated while we were out of the house and failed to boot properly, the entire house would freeze in short order. The pipes would burst and I'd be out many tens of thousands of dollars trying to repair the place.
  I can't risk that.
  The Nest clearly seems to be targeted at silicon valley types who want a gadget and are used to the gadget early-adopter flakiness. If your thermostat flakes out in SVC its no big deal. Very different context than rural North Dakota.
  It would be a simple matter to integrate a _backup_ mechanical failsafe that activated the heating circuits if the temperature fell below say, 50F.
  The Nest apparently does not have this feature.
  I've had programmable thermostats in the past, but programming them (not to mention setting the clocks to track DST changes) has always been enough of a hassle that I've always reverted to "one temperature, all the time". So the Nest is interesting in terms of the problem it tries to solve. The data collection, and correlating furnace activity with outside temperature -- is all interesting. As I was researching the Nest, I realized that they were attempting to create a new product category -- home hvac efficiency enthusiast.
  I might be willing to pay $250 to solve a problem I don't actually have. But not if it greatly increases the likelihood of causing a $30,000 problem because it was designed by people who apparently have no experience with controls.
  
  --
  My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
10. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  Meh, being able to have cheap multizone temp monitoring seems like a cool use of technology to me.
  Considering that Google's main competition in this arena is the Nest, a $250 thermostat...
  You have a really odd definition of the word "cheap," you know that?
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
11. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  You have not met my wife. She will walk into a room where I am sitting, change the thermostat or fan speed, then walk out. So I got to get up and set it back again. I have considered modifying things so it can't change, but that would be cruel.
  You don't need a $300 thermostat to fix that.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
12. Re:Themostat by sribe · 2013-12-17 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  Disconnect the existing thermostat so that it does nothing, but is still available for her to change. Install new real thermostat in a hidden location.
  You jest. I knew some guys in a company who did exactly that in their office. Funny thing was, the women who fought every day over the thermostat never even noticed. They continued their daily wars of up->down->up->down without noticing that it no longer did anything.
13. Re:Themostat by slim · 2013-12-17 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  I live in the UK, where most houses central heating works on the KISS principle: there is one mechanical thermostat in the hallway. That thermostat switches on/off your boiler and pump, which sends hot water around a loop through every radiator in the house.
  It sucks.
  It sucks a little less if you manage to "balance" your radiators by adjusting their valves just-so, so that the first radiator in the loop doesn't get all the heat. Otherwise you get situations where your spare bedroom is like a sauna, your living room barely gets any heat, and the hallway where the thermostat is never warms up. Or perhaps the radiator in the hallway gets all the heat first, so the thermometer trips off before any other room warms up. Getting this right is voodoo.
  It sucks a little less if you have Thermostatic Radiator Valves on each radiator. These control flow into each radiator individually, so you can set the temperature you want for each room. But one radiator must have no TRV, otherwise it's possible to damage the boiler when it tries to pump against a closed system. So you get situations where the TRV-less radiator is blasting out unwanted heat; or where the main thermostat clicks off, so the boiler isn't on, while rooms are cold. So it still sucks.
  All I want is a system where every radiator has a TRV, and the boiler knows to run unless every TRV says it's warm enough. Should be simple. Can't seem to get them. The closest I've found is a range of WiFi TRVs that rely on your boiler detecting that returning water is no cooler than outbound water, and your system having a safety circuit to avoid excess pressure when all the valves are closed. I don't think that's standard.
  But if I were to be greedy, I'd also want to be able to set schedules for individual rooms. And hey, why not have stuff like, "when my phone notices I'm leaving the office, turn on the home heating"?
14. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  I don't need my appliances talking to the internet.
  Last summer I was just driving onto the ferry to head to the cottage for a couple of weeks when I realized that I forgot to turn down the hot water heater. Sure would have been nice to have connected to the heater from my phone and dialed it down remotely.
  I once left on a long trip and thought I left the oven on. So I called my mother-in-law, who has a spare key, and had her check.
  $2 key given to a trusted person, or a $300 appliance that may or may not work when you really need it to... the choice seems pretty simple to me.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
15. Re:Themostat by MachineShedFred · 2013-12-17 05:51 · Score: 2
  
  Look at the whole puzzle, not just the price tag.
  Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime. People like to bitch about the up-front cost of LED lighting too, but everyone around here at least understands the savings of those products.
  
  --
  Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
16. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:59 · Score: 0
  
  I did something like this in the house I was renting in college. One of my housemates was from Hawaii and like the thermostat around 82. I preferred it set to about 68. So I woke up early one morning, opened the thermostat up, and bent the bimetallic strip so that an indicated 82 as a set 68. He never complained about the temperature again...
17. Re:Themostat by afidel · 2013-12-17 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  Compared to traditional multizone monitoring solutions with installation? Yes, it's cheap.
  
  --
  There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
18. Re:Themostat by MozeeToby · 2013-12-17 06:03 · Score: 1
  
  What exactly is the "right temperature". If I'm home, and it's a chilly winter day the "right temperature" is 66-68. If I'm out for the day it might be 60 or lower. If I'm gone for a week it could be 50. Same thing when everyone in the house is snug in bed. And if the wind is picking up and blowing through the old windows, the temperature where the thermostat is might be 5 degrees warmer than the temperature at the other end of the house. A smart thermostat can learn or be programmed for all of those situations.
19. Re:Themostat by JaredOfEuropa · 2013-12-17 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  I have a few thermostats and remote controlled radiator valves around the house plugged into a home automation hub. Took a little while to set up, but now the various rooms around the house only get heated when necessary (instead of heating it based on a timer which rarely matches my schedule), which saves money. When I leave work, I hit the Heating button on the remote control app so the house is warm when I arrive, which adds comfort (next step: use a geofence). I can turn up the heat from the couch, or turn on the AC in the bedroom a bit before we go to bed, which means convenience. So yes, there's lots of reasons to get "smart", connected thermostats. I got to the point where I don't have to think about the heating at all, while my gas bill is noticeably lower.
  
  --
  If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
20. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:17 · Score: 1
  
  If you can trust your mother-in-law with a spare key, you are rather blessed.
21. Re:Themostat by JaredOfEuropa · 2013-12-17 06:20 · Score: 1
  
  Look into a Z-Wave based home automation hub like MiCasaverde's Vera. Then get some Z-wave enabled thermostats (or even WiFi ones, for example there's a vera plugin for Heatmiser ones), and Z-Wave TRVs (StellaZ / Danfoss, though the latter ones are somewhat problematic). I have TRVs in several rooms slaved to the thermostats, each of which can drive the boiler (the old fashioned on/off boiler type). Wiring thermostats in parallel can mess up the benefits of their PID-type controller, but in practice they rarely seem to fight each other. You need to write some code or set up a few "scenes" in the hub to tie everything together, but it does work. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper than true multizone central heating.
  
  --
  If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
22. Re:Themostat by AJodock · 2013-12-17 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  If your thermostat flakes out in SVC its no big deal. Very different context than rural North Dakota.
  As someone who lives in the ND area this is the exact reason why I did buy a internet enabled thermostat. I got a Honeywell not a Nest (wasn't available yet), and having an internet enabled device is the perfect way to monitor if something does go wrong. I can login to the portal and setup high and low limits, and if my furnace were to fail and the house drops below my set temperature I get an email alerting me to that fact so that I can respond. Also if the thermostat or internet connection fails I get alerts warning me as such so that I can investigate the cause.
  When it is -20F and your furnace fails to ignite, or your power is out your mechanical/dumb thermostat isn't going to warn you, and you will still be dealing with burst pipes... if you want a mechanical backup just install a second thermostat and put it on the same control line. I would rather be alerted to the situation than be in the dark, because even if the device fails bypassing it to get some heat is just a matter of bridging two wires.
23. Re:Themostat by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 07:00 · Score: 2
  
  Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime.
  Only for people too stupid to program a normal $30 programmable thermostat.
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
24. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  Look at the whole puzzle, not just the price tag.
  Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime.
  Yea, yea, I've heard the sales pitch. Problem is, a $300 thermostat can't give me any better energy savings than the act of me keeping my thermostat at a lower/higher temperature, depending on the season. Hell, I saved myself almost $100 in a single month this summer by raising the dial from 65 degrees to 70, no fancy electronics needed. So, really, there is no savings in buying an outrageously priced, wall-mounted bauble for people with sense.
  And when I get chilly this winter? I'll put on a sweater.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
25. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 07:03 · Score: 1
  
  Compared to traditional multizone monitoring solutions with installation? Yes, it's cheap.
  Touche.
  Ever consider rolling your own? Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own, and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
26. Re:Themostat by 0100010001010011 · 2013-12-17 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  Have you looked at what normal multi-zone temp monitoring costs?
27. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 07:07 · Score: 2
  
  Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own,
  Boom shaka-laka
  
  and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
  OK so assuming a 4 zone setup, you're looking at $40 for the sensor, let's say another $100 for the Ardiuno/Pi setup, and I'm going to guestimate no more than $25 in wire and other supplies... less than $200 total.
  Not too shabby if you have the know-how and time to build and code it.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
28. Re:Themostat by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  share data with the world about the expiration date on the cottage cheese stashed in the crisper drawer [1]
  What, you don't like the idea of teenage griefers writing "LOL, stupid noob don't know cottage cheese don't go in the crisper! #Lrn2Fridge" on your TwitBook feed?
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
29. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 07:09 · Score: 0
  
  Many of the programmable ones have the ability to adjust +/- 5 degrees for calibration that can be used for similar purposes, though not quite that extreme.
30. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 07:14 · Score: 0
  
  You mean people too stupid to program a normal $30 thermostat, monitor energy efficiency, make predictions on weather forecasts for how early heating is going to be needed, adjust heating to be optimally efficient. Or, who simply don't have time to do that, but do want to have the efficiency savings?
31. Re:Themostat by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  I've had programmable thermostats in the past, but programming them (not to mention setting the clocks to track DST changes) has always been enough of a hassle that I've always reverted to "one temperature, all the time".
  Is having them heat or cool at exactly the right time that big a deal? Why not just split the difference -- leave the clock set 30 minutes ahead -- and then set the "home" (conditioned) intervals 1 hour longer to compensate?
  It's slightly less optimized, but it still saves tons of energy compared to "one temperature, all the time"
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
32. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 07:20 · Score: 0
  
  Agreed. I looked at both the honeywell and the nest. I went with honeywell. The nest is too simplified, I want to be able to control thing the honeywell does that very well.
33. Re:Themostat by RustyTheCat · 2013-12-17 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  Have the real thermostat hidden somewhere else and make the one she changes a decoy.
34. Re:Themostat by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 07:43 · Score: 1
  
  It sucks a little less if you have Thermostatic Radiator Valves on each radiator. These control flow into each radiator individually, so you can set the temperature you want for each room. But one radiator must have no TRV, otherwise it's possible to damage the boiler when it tries to pump against a closed system. So you get situations where the TRV-less radiator is blasting out unwanted heat; or where the main thermostat clicks off, so the boiler isn't on, while rooms are cold. So it still sucks.
  Put the main thermostat near the TRV-less radiator?
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
35. Re:Themostat by chihowa · 2013-12-17 07:46 · Score: 2
  
  That covers monitoring. Throw in a couple of servos and drivers to control the ventilation and you have a complete system. Drop the Pi/Arduino combo and use a Beaglebone Black and you keep roughly the same expenditure.
  I think I have a project lined up for the holidays...
  [ By the way, it had been a little while since I last used BatchPCB, but they've since sold their operation to OSH Park, who now does all of the fab work in the US and the turnaround is much quicker. If you're looking for reasonably priced small batch PCBs, check them out. ]
  
  --
  If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
36. Re:Themostat by WhatHump · 2013-12-17 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  I agree with your assessment of the Nest thermostat. However, I'm puzzled about your comment regarding your ability for your home to retain heat. I live in Canada (about an hour north of Toronto) and a couple of years ago our natural gas meter malfunctioned, cutting off the supply to our furnace. By the time it was properly diagnosed and resolved, we were almost 48 hours without heat. However, the house never dropped below +10 degrees Celsius during that time, and that was February with outdoor temperatures around -10 degrees Celsius. While it is only 25 years old and is fairly well insulated (new windows and doors in the last five years), it is nothing special in terms of insulating technology. Perhaps I'm wrong but I would think your home should survive a short-term outage on the heating without damage.
  
  --
  "Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
37. Re:Themostat by KingMotley · 2013-12-17 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  Add in a wifi module, and the developer kits for your mobiles, and learn to program your mobile, write a web service, and the arduino/pi with it's limited C subset (and the module quirks). So for $200 + those, you've saved what over the $300 nest?
38. Re:Themostat by KingMotley · 2013-12-17 08:18 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, over the $250 nest -- http://www.amazon.com/Nest-Learning-Thermostat-Generation-T200577/dp/B009GDHYPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387311445&sr=8-1&keywords=nest
39. Re:Themostat by CanHasDIY · 2013-12-17 08:48 · Score: 2
  
  Add in a wifi module, and the developer kits for your mobiles, and learn to program your mobile, write a web service, and the arduino/pi with it's limited C subset (and the module quirks). So for $200 + those, you've saved what over the $300 nest?
  Unless the nest comes complete with remote sensors for the different zones, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
  Also, as someone else pointed out, a $60 BeagleBone Black covers the electronics. So, really, the DIY setup is ~$40 for sensors, ~$60 for control, and $25 for wiring - we'll say $150 total to give a little wiggle room.
  I don't know why you think there needs to be a wifi module for a system that's hard-wired into the house; I guess because the Nest has one? Well, that's another advantage to the roll-your-own version - no icky, insecure wireless junk to worry about.
  As for the programming, you act like there aren't massive communities, both online and off, filled with people who like to help each other build funky things with CC-PCs and consumer microcontrollers.
  There are. LOTS of them, actually.
  So, not only would you save ~$100, you'd also have a much more extensive system then what the Nest gives you, and an opportunity to be a part of something interesting.
  Oh, and something that's under your complete control, a feature I in particular find appealing.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
40. Re:Themostat by bmajik · 2013-12-17 08:56 · Score: 1
  
  I totally get what you're saying. And I had also thought of wiring a mechanical backup in parallel. But that sort of changes the value prop of the Nest device away from a "install it in 10 minutes and then play" to something somewhat more involved.
  The effective reliability of a non-redundant system is limited to the reliability of its least reliable component.
  In many years of home ownership with all different types of heating systems and thermostats, grid-tied electrical service has been by far lowest-reliability ingredient in the system.
  However, those outages tend to be a few hours per year in the places I've lived, and the system comes back from failure without intervention.
  Installing a Nest would have changed that paradigm completely. The failure mode is that the nest freezes and you have no indication at all that anything is wrong. And it never comes back until other symptoms are bad enough that you think to wonder why its so damn cold -- if you are home at all. There is some kind of human reset procedure that must be performed.
  If the Nest had any kind of failsafe mechanism in it, it would address my concern. The fact that it doesn't, combined with the numerous reports of them freezing during updates, and that Nest refuses to let you manage updates yourself, suggests that they simply don't have their heads on straight regarding the mission-critical nature of thermostats.
  Honeywell is someone I trust to make an arbitrarily complicated thermostat. They have been doing control engineering for decades.
  
  --
  My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
41. Re:Themostat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 09:00 · Score: 0
  
  If you need to permanently heat your house, you have worse problems then a simple thermostat.
  How about proper house building for the environment you are in?
42. Re:Themostat by femtobyte · 2013-12-17 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  Some people can withstand a few degree temporary temperature excursion in the home without dying from either hypothermia or heat exhaustion. The "make predictions on weather forecasts for how early heating is going to be needed" thing doesn't seem too important unless you regularly have eighty-degree temperature swings rolling in with the local weather. If you really care about energy efficiency, put on some clothes when you feel cold and take 'em off when you feel hot (and nudge the thermostat a bit if neither approach suffices) --- don't bother with whizzy gadgetry to keep the house within 0.1 degrees of some arbitrary, uneconomical set-point.
43. Re:Themostat by slim · 2013-12-17 09:22 · Score: 1
  
  Results in the thermostat clicking off while other rooms are still cold.
44. Re:Themostat by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 10:07 · Score: 1
  
  Put the main thermostat near the TRV-less radiator, but turn down that radiator's valve so that it's only open a little bit and heats up slowly?
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
45. Re:Themostat by nblender · 2013-12-17 10:32 · Score: 1
  
  That's great if you want to turn your furnace into a hobby... I suggest you wire in a couple of old manual tilt-switch thermostats in parallel and in series to ensure you don't freeze your pipes or have the furnace on 24x7 in case your arduino gets an unhandled interrupt or something.. Personally, I have a http://www.rcstechnology.com/oldsite/products/stats/serial.htm RCS TR60 thermostat with an RS-485 port. I have it hooked up to a mac mini running Ubuntu. Periodically it updates a mysql database with inside temperature, outside temperature, furnace runtime, current set point, etc... From that I can calculate the heat loss in the house and make certain decisions based on the current set point (if it's 55, my computer knows I'm not there; if it's above 65, it knows that I'm there)... I can submit commands to a private web-page to go to a specific set point, turn the fan on, etc.. It does what I want. It's all just a few python scripts that took hardly any time to make.. The biggest problem I have is keeping the cellphone internet connection active... Best part is, I know the thermostat will continue to work even if my linux machine goes down or what have you... It will continue along mindlessly so I know my pipes won't freeze as a result of any code that I wrote.
46. Re:Themostat by AJodock · 2013-12-17 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  "install it in 10 minutes and then play" to something somewhat more involved.
  Well I usually enjoy an involved setup :) As long as it is stable afterwards of course.
  
  However, those outages tend to be a few hours per year in the places I've lived, and the system comes back from failure without intervention.
  Yeah that brings up another issue with programmable thermostats is that when you bring your temp down when you aren't home and then the power fails you are already at that much lower of a temperature to start with. A few hours might not be an issue when your temp is already high, but when you are 10 deg lower to start with and then your furnace fails you have that much less time to respond.
  
  The failure mode is that the nest freezes and you have no indication at all that anything is wrong.
  I would have assumed that the Nest would alert you like the Honeywell when it quits checking in to their servers. Are they lacking that feature?
  
  and that Nest refuses to let you manage updates yourself,
  
  Ouch yeah I can certainly see that causing problems.
47. Re:Themostat by spunc · 2013-12-17 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  Try looking for the Conrad or ELV FHT80BTF. It's a motorised actuator that replaces the TRV head and is radio-controlled by the programmable thermostat on the wall. There's a window sensor too.
  I have this in all the rooms in the house and couple them with the FTH8W boiler controller to switch on the gas boiler when any room calls for heat. I also bought a CUL USB transceiver and have software called FHEM installed on a Raspberry Pi to control the system (and provide graphs).
  My plumber installed a bypass in the hot press so all radiators can have TRVs and be controlled by the system.
48. Re:Themostat by russotto · 2013-12-17 11:32 · Score: 1
  
  If you really want a backup mechanical failsafe, get yourself a small mechanical thermostat and wire it up in parallel. No electronic thermostat that I know of has a mechanical backup.
fool me twice, shame on me by larry+bagina · 2013-12-17 04:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Thanks but we all know you'll get bored and drop support for it in 6 months, bricking your (because it's licensed not purchased) thermostat in the process. If you have a problem with a Nest thermostat, you can call them up and talk to a person. If you have a problem with a google anything, you can, well, fuck off, because supportis the one thing Google can't find.

--
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
1. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by msauve · 2013-12-17 05:07 · Score: 2
  
  As if Nest has published APIs, or control of the thermostat doesn't require going through their servers?
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
2. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by slinches · 2013-12-17 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, I've had nothing but good experiences with Google phone support. Every time I've called I got an intelligent person who actually seemed interested in trying to resolve my problem. The success rate on solving the problem immediately wasn't perfect, but they did follow up when a patch was eventually released that fixed the issue.
  
  --
  Knowledge Brings Fear
3. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:37 · Score: 0
  
  Do you advertise with them? i.e. Actually one of their customers? Because, Google support for the rest of us, in my experience, is either non-existent, or borderline retarded when you do find it, or defers you to a website that runs you into circles until you're blue in the face.
4. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by slinches · 2013-12-17 09:05 · Score: 1
  
  Nope, I'm just a data mining resource like everyone else. I've only talked with Google Play and Nexus device support, so maybe those groups are better or I just got lucky.
  
  --
  Knowledge Brings Fear
5. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 09:18 · Score: 0
  
  As if Nest has published APIs
  Coming soon, apparently - https://nest.com/developer/
  
  or control of the thermostat doesn't require going through their servers?
  Yes, that is annoying. There's no reason why they couldn't have a local WiFi API in addition to the server-based API (which is necessary because the average Joe doesn't understand how to punch a hole through their NAT router for access away from home). Well, I can think of one reason: they wouldn't get to collect as much data if someone could choose to use it over local WiFi only.
6. Re:fool me twice, shame on me by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 10:10 · Score: 0
  
  Actually, this could be a great selling point. I don't think they will be breaking your thermostat, so probably you'd be able to control it locally. Which is something others don't seem to provide (everything goes through the cloud service).
  If the thermostat can do it's job within the local network, without requiring a cloudy account, I may just even get it.
  I don't have complaints about my Google TV, it was supported and it keep working for me!
Consistency is key by Darth+Snowshoe · 2013-12-17 04:45 · Score: 1

Google creates and then discards so many little initiatives at such a quick cadence - you'd have to be a fool to wire your house up with one, without some guarantee as how many years it will be supported.
1. Re:Consistency is key by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:55 · Score: 0
  
  Anything that gets people to throw more personal data at Google will stick around. I can see this one persisting, with directed advertisements straight to your smartToaster.
  "FDA suggests new vitamin rich bread, tap toaster button to order three pallets."
2. Re:Consistency is key by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:16 · Score: 0
  
  -- Sent from my DROIDX
I hope they've learned from the libraries by davecb · 2013-12-17 04:48 · Score: 2

I hope they know enough to discard the information after they're done the analyses, as libraries have long since learned to do when someone returns a book. Otherwise they can look forward to someone showing up with a court order and asking them for "a google search of everyone using more than 10 KW/H between 1 and 5 AM".
I'd also expect to tie the web service to "something I have" as well as something I know (my password). A good thing to uniquely tie it to is the google thermostat itself. It can give the owner it's private key via bluetooth and a "press to authenticate" button*.
--dave
[* this is a solution to a lot of "authenticate a device" problems]

--
davecb@spamcop.net
Nest too expensive for what it is by bradgoodman · 2013-12-17 04:49 · Score: 1

The next is rediculously expensive. I use a Honneywell Wifi which is better. From what I know about the Nest from a lot of my friends that have it - the "smart" and "adaptive" stuff doesn't really work too well at all. The Honewell give you a basic schedule - and lets you access it remotely - which is what and all I really need. I don't need all the fancy display, UI, bells/whistles of the Nest. I hope/assume Google will go the "chromecast" route - in delivering an inexpensive, Wifi connected product that just works.
1. Re:Nest too expensive for what it is by tlhIngan · 2013-12-17 05:09 · Score: 2
  
  The next is rediculously expensive. I use a Honneywell Wifi which is better. From what I know about the Nest from a lot of my friends that have it - the "smart" and "adaptive" stuff doesn't really work too well at all. The Honewell give you a basic schedule - and lets you access it remotely - which is what and all I really need. I don't need all the fancy display, UI, bells/whistles of the Nest. I hope/assume Google will go the "chromecast" route - in delivering an inexpensive, Wifi connected product that just works.
  Funny enough, the Honeywell system I was quoted on cost twice as much as a Nest. Sure the thermostat was cheaper, but then you needed the gateway to connect its wireless to the network.
  And all ti gave was a web page and stuff in the end.
  Though, Nest and Honeywell are currently locked in a nasty patent battle over thermostats..
  And I will say from experience - programmables suck - in practically every instance I've seen, people get all excited and program their thermostats when they get them, then after a couple of months, they don't bother. It's too cold? Override. Too hot? Override. In the end, the programmable thermostat reverts to a plain old one because no one can be bothered to reprogram the damn thing..
2. Re:Nest too expensive for what it is by bradgoodman · 2013-12-17 05:28 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's too cold? Override. Too hot? Override. In the end, the programmable thermostat reverts to a plain old one because no one can be bothered to reprogram the damn thing..
  Damn straight! That's why I did this with my Honeywell! ;-)
  http://www.bradgoodman.com/thermostat/
3. Re:Nest too expensive for what it is by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 09:37 · Score: 0
  From what I know about the Nest from a lot of my friends that have it - the "smart" and "adaptive" stuff doesn't really work too well at all.
  I have a Nest and I agree completely. I love the WiFi/internet connectivity, but that's it. This "smart" thermostat is by far the dumbest and most frustrating one I've ever had. There's no way to set a temperature and tell it to hold that for a set period of time (or indefinitely). This is a feature that "dumb" thermostats have had for years! Here's a common occurrence in my house:
  
  - 15 minutes before a "learned" temperature set point/time, I'm comfortable but I hear the furnace start to come on because the Nest is starting to pre-heat.
  - Since heating would waste energy when I'm already comfortable, I pull up the Nest app or walk to the thermostat and set it back below the current temp.
  - 5-10 minutes later, it again tries to dutifully pre-heat in anticipation of the imminent set point/time. #@@%!#$@#!!! Turn it back down.
  - The set time comes and it dutifully sets the temperature and starts up the furnace a THIRD time! Gah!!!
  I have to laugh every time Nest claims their customers save so much energy money because of their "smart" thermostat. I'm constantly fighting mine because it wants to waste more energy than necessary!
  The "speed" of learning is also too slow for my liking. It took too long to learn new temperature preferences as the seasons changed. At least you can go in and edit the schedule manually, but that defeats the whole purpose of the "smart" learning thermostat. I'd like to have an adjustment for how fast it learns new settings.
  I should have gone with something more like yours. I was looking at a thermostat that was exactly like the one I replaced, but with WiFi added. Probably should have gone that route. But I fell for the sexiness of the Nest. Stupid Apple. :(
How is this a remotely useful product? by Gothmolly · 2013-12-17 04:50 · Score: 1

Set the heat at 60, and when you come home from work, bump it to 65. What is so hard about that? Why do you have to tell Google when you're home and when you're not? To those who posit "But you can set the thermostat if you leave the house and forget to change it", there's a solution for that. Don't forget. People have been not forgetting to change their thermostats for probably 100 years now. You don't need some masturbatory iThing to do this.

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
1. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Cro+Magnon · 2013-12-17 04:57 · Score: 1
  
  I don't like coming home to a cold house. With a Goog-thermostat, I could turn the heat up when I leave work so it will be warm when I get home.
  
  --
  Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
2. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by DJCouchyCouch · 2013-12-17 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  Ah yes, "don't forget". For flawless foolproof plans, that's right up there with "be careful" and "I'll pull out in time".
3. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Viol8 · 2013-12-17 05:00 · Score: 2
  
  Newsflash - thermostats with timers have been around for 50 years.
4. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:15 · Score: 1
  
  Yup, however the fancy technology that hardly any model has and I just had to shell out over $100 for is to simply have the fan automatically turn on and circulate the air for a little while every hour or so. Using the fan even when the heat or A/C is nut running goes a long way towards evening out the temperatures across the house and avoiding rooms getting stale, but the vast majority of thermostats only offer the two options "When the Heat/AC is running" or "All the damn time until your fan motor burns out." Why is this periodic circulation feature so damn hard to come by?
5. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by CohibaVancouver · 2013-12-17 05:18 · Score: 1
  
  People have been not forgetting to change their thermostats for probably 100 years now
  ...and a large number have been not not forgetting. Hence the market.
6. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:33 · Score: 0
  
  How is that faster horse coming along for you?
7. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by slim · 2013-12-17 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  Why do you need it as warm as 60F when you're out of the house? Unless you're drying clothes, the only reason for heating while you're out is to avoid frost damage.
  Even when I'm at home, I don't want my house to be a constant temperature. I want the living room to be a nice temperature between 6pm and 11pm and frost-protected the rest of the time, when nobody's there. I want the bedroom to be cold most of the time, warming up a bit ready for bedtime, cooling down again while I'm asleep, getting toasty warm for getting up time, then cold while I'm away.
  And I want different schedules at weekends.
8. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:01 · Score: 0
  
  What if I forget to not forget?
  Douche.
9. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:15 · Score: 0
  
  It's gonna be great when Google wipes your ass for you as well!
10. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:18 · Score: 0
  
  I wonder how much more heat you're pumping out to heat that "frost protected" home to "comfortable" than you'd have used just leaving it "moderately comfortable" at all times.
  I'm betting it's not an inconsequential difference.
11. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by JaredOfEuropa · 2013-12-17 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  That works fine if you're a 9 to 5 guy. I work weird hours, and certainly don't come home the same time every day. My GF's schedule is even more irregular. So I switched from a thermostat-with-timer to a system that adapts to us and can be controlled remotely. The result is increased comfort and a lower heating bill.
  
  --
  If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
12. Re: How is this a remotely useful product? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:46 · Score: 0
  
  It all depends on insulation. A house will not maintain temperature like a refrigerator. The greater the temperature differential to outdoors, the greater the losses.
13. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by AJodock · 2013-12-17 07:11 · Score: 1
  
  And how does that help me to not come home to a cold house when I decide to run home for lunch today (assuming that I normally don't)? I would have to set the timer to do that every day wasting energy instead of logging in quick and setting the temp before I leave the office.
14. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by Viol8 · 2013-12-17 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  "I would have to set the timer to do that every day wasting energy "
  Or you could just wear a jumper instead of being such a wuss.
15. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by mrchaotica · 2013-12-17 07:28 · Score: 2
  
  I wonder how much more heat you're pumping out to heat that "frost protected" home to "comfortable" than you'd have used just leaving it "moderately comfortable" at all times.
  How much "more"? Less than zero, that's how much "more."
  The energy required to maintain a difference in temperature between an object and its surroundings is proportional to the difference in temperature. Therefore, it takes less energy to let the house cool off (minimizing delta-T some of the time) and then warm it up again than it does to keep it warm the whole time (in winter, or vice-versa in summer). This is true regardless of insulation (which only affects the speed at which the cooling off or warming up happens).
  
  --
  "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
16. Re: How is this a remotely useful product? by AvitarX · 2013-12-17 10:53 · Score: 1
  
  I have radiators with a properly sized boiler, if I made that change on a cold day, it'd be a while before things were 65.
  My nest knows how long the radiators take to heat things, and I believe even looks at the weather to do the calculation. It k ows, turn on radiators 90 minutes early, then cut them off when it reaches 63, to have the house be 65 when I get home.
  Programming those things is a real pain on a normal thermostat (I've actually only owned one that let you set when to cut off on a temperature upswing for radiators, and they are always pre programmed assuming forced air for degrees per 15 minute early kick on).
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
17. Re:How is this a remotely useful product? by kurzweilfreak · 2013-12-17 11:35 · Score: 1
  
  Why don't you develop one, sell it for less than the Nest or Honeywell and tell Slashdot to fuck off while you laugh all the way to the bank? :D
  
  --
  kurzweil_freak
  5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student
  Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.
Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-17 04:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

Web connected devices could allow Google access to a treasure trove of data on people's daily habits and routines."
Don't care.
I went "all in" on Google a while ago, and I enjoy our current exchange of my personal data for their pretty damned awesome services.
I know what I've given up, and I like what I got in return.
If it's a cool thermostat, I'm in. Google already knows when I'm driving home. Let them turn on my air conditioner.
1. Re:Don't care... by GTRacer · 2013-12-17 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  I think I love you. I too went all-in with Google for exactly the same reason. Yes, I know they have a treasure trove of info on me - some given willingly and some mined behind the scenes - but I can't get too upset given what I get in return.
  
  Also, I figured one questionably evil company stockpiling my data was better than two having at it, playing shadow-profile correlation games with each other.
  
  As to why I need a smart thermostat, a few different people said it already - No need heating/cooling to human comfort whilst we're away, occasional fan circ is nice, and timed heatup / cooldown around sleep cycles is NICE.
  
  --
  Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
2. Re: Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-17 06:16 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I'm marked Troll for some reason. Apparently an informed decision of making a trade of privacy for convenience and liking what I get from Google in exchange for that isn't a valid opinion here.
  You know what? I like my phone buzzing about 10 minutes before I normally leave from work to alert me about traffic, and I'm willing to let Google know where I am and where I live (something they knew what I ordered a GPE One from them anyway) in exchange.
  By the same token, I'm willing to allow them to sniff my mail (or read it wholesale, I suppose) in exchange for providing me contextually aware ads. What's that? A link to something my brother wants for Christmas? Maybe I'll shop there. Everyone wins, including my brother.
  I'm willing to make a number of other trade-offs, even knowing that this data becomes more powerful in aggregate. If my phone beeps on Wednesday, noticing I didn't go home, but out to dinner instead, and asks me if I want to delay turning on the air conditioning, I'll accept that too in exchange for the return I get in terms of convenience.
  I've weighed the value of my privacy against the services they return. I'm not a private person, and I know how to compartmentalize what they do and don't get from me. I like my end of the deal, and if I ever don't, I'll discontinue using their services.
3. Re:Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-17 06:30 · Score: 2
  
  Yeah, I'm not exactly sure I need a Google connected thermostat, but I just don't care if they know what my thermostat is set for.
  There's a line, of course. We all have arbitrary lines about what information we're willing to share. I'm not willing to let them have my taxes, watch me perform my husbandly duties, or plug in an ODB2 scanner into my car, but short of my raw financials, details on my love life, or discreet details of my driving, they're welcome to most anything they want -- as long as I get something in return.
  If it's a cool tool, for a fair price, and it leverages what Google already knows about me, great.
4. Re: Don't care... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:03 · Score: 0
  
  Let me begin by saying that I respect your decision (although it differs from mine). That said, I don't feel like you have addressed the negatives of allowing a large marketing corporation, subject to federal subpoenas, have access to your and a large number of other people's habits. You only speak of generalities of what you are "giving up" as "privacy." Are you concerned that Google, knowing your habits, can target ads for things that you might be on the cusp of wanting, but would not otherwise purchase? How about directing you to sites that are just at the cusp of your spending limit, instead of a more economical, but sufficient alternative?
  What about the tell-tale signs that you must leave behind for the information you "keep hidden"? In the future, or perhaps even the present, the aggregate data may be able to be used to infer even that. Are you concerned that in a society with ever more innocent activities being made illegal, you may be targeted for these activities you believed were adequately hidden?
  And what about going beyond the effects on just your own personal life? In a society where so much can be predicted, it becomes easier to squash activities that disrupt the status quo. Since these kind of disruptive activities terrify incumbent interests, its quite reasonable to expect, with the kind of predictive power afforded by mass data, that the incumbent interests can move to stifle changes.
  This is all the doomsday side of big data, of course, but it just doesn't seem fair to only present the "great side" of it like you did. I don't think anyone would argue with the convenience you've found, but it doesn't seem like privacy concerns can be dismissed so easily.
5. Re: Don't care... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:33 · Score: 0
  
  Could it be that you wedge yourself into every Google-related discussion to go on and on about how you "went all in"? Every time... without fail... It gets old.
  You're like the Google fan equivalent of the Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television. It all just comes off as a little sad now.
6. Re: Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-17 08:43 · Score: 1
  
  All valid points.
  ...which is why I didn't dismiss any of them without some thought.
  To answer your questions though:
  Sure. I recognize that all advertising is made to get me to buy something I didn't want or need -- or at a minimum to sway my necessary purchases from Brand-A to Brand-B. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy some things on a whim, so mostly, I like what Google shows me.
  [Their biggest misses are things I already bought - talked about in my email, or searched for an bought brick-and-mortar, or searched for and then after doing my homework decided I didn't want. Case in point: I get tons of ads for Coin, the all-in-one credit card, which I've dismissed as "a bad idea." ...but I searched for it a lot, so they advertise for it a lot.]
  ...and I guess that the fear of things retroactively being made a crime just doesn't concern me. I'm a gun owner, and a lot-of-other-things owner, but I'll take my chances.
7. Re: Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-17 10:49 · Score: 1
  
  [Thanks for viewing my comment history!]
8. Re:Don't care... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 21:27 · Score: 0
  
  Benjamin Franklin frowns upon your shenanigans, spins in his grave.
9. Re:Don't care... by mythosaz · 2013-12-18 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  There's a line.
  Fire and police can serve me better if they know where I live. I don't think that's an unreasonable part of my privacy to give up.
  Google doesn't decide how much I share with them in exchange for their services. I decide how much I share with Google in exchange for what quality of service I want in return.
Build your own w/ an Arduino? by WillAdams · 2013-12-17 04:57 · Score: 2

Here:
http://www.freetronics.com/blogs/news/6305652-build-your-own-arduino-based-home-thermostat#.UrCCUijNB94

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Its the same mindset as a connected Fridge by Viol8 · 2013-12-17 04:58 · Score: 2

No normal person needs its because normal people - even nerds - like to keep simple things simple. No milk in fridge? Buy some. House too cold? Turn up heating. Easy.
But, we don't think like the frankly slightly weird Oooh Shiny!! just left university , not yet quite up on how real life works and how real people think , head in the clouds (or cloud?) techo designers that Google employs. They're the sort of people who think that because something CAN be solved by technology , it MUST be solved by technology because in their minds anything digital is the best solution simply by dint of it being digital.
And the reason for this push is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 04:59 · Score: 0

Smart Meters: Building the Global Surveillance Grid
LERN2SPEEL by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:06 · Score: 0

What are editors for, again?
Predatory Monopoly by xombo · 2013-12-17 05:08 · Score: 2

Just sayin'.
What's the point of trying to leverage Android or any of Google's products if they're going to try to compete against you in every market on their own turf?
independent living for parents by turkeydance · 2013-12-17 05:10 · Score: 1

who forget to turn off the stove/oven/etc. now the children can monitor Mom's appliances so she doesn't run the risk of burning-down-the-house (or relocation to a nursing home).
1. Re:independent living for parents by SirGarlon · 2013-12-17 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  Frankly, if Mom or Dad is at risk of forgetting to turn the stove off, she or he is probably not safe living alone. Can that elder remember his or her medications -- and not overdose? Can he or she find the way home from the corner store? I'm not saying "nursing home," but a person who can't be trusted to turn the stove off is at least a strong candidate for what we call "assisted living."
  
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  [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
2. Re:independent living for parents by jodosh · 2013-12-17 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  Assisted Living can be very expensive and technology can help solve some of these problems. My father has memory problems and might forget to take his medication or leave the range top on. I wrote a simple android app and put NFC stickers on his pill box. Each morning and night he uses a nexus 7 that I got him to scan the NFC tag which marks in a DB that I run that he has taken his meds. If by a certain time the DB hasn't been updated I get a notification my my phone to call my dad and check in. My dad enjoys being in the home that he and my mother built 30 years ago and he still gets out with friends. I wish I had a way to see that he left the range top on so I could help him stay even more safe, but for now and hopefully for the next few years assisted living would be a costly and unneeded situation for my father.
More data to mine for their advertisers & the by ron_ivi · 2013-12-17 05:21 · Score: 3, Informative

Now they'll know everything from when you wake up to when you take a bath. If you turn the heater up, they'll probably start sending you more banner ads for cold medicines; and if you do it too often, they'll probably sell that data to your health & life insurance companies to raise your rates. No thanks Google. Stop spying on us.
You're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:21 · Score: 0

Google doesn't support anything, even services you pay them money for.
Re:More data to mine for their advertisers & t by kaizendojo · 2013-12-17 05:29 · Score: 2

No one can 'spy' on you unless you invite them in. Google's not busting into your home and forcing you at gunpoint to install one of their thermostats. If you don't want to participate, then don't. But don't complain because others want to and because a company finds yet another avenue to generate a revenue stream. That's what their business model is all about.
Can we officially rename Google to Go Ogle now? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:37 · Score: 0

Seriously.
Military robotics creepiness.
The NSA interface.
Bloody javascript that half the sites on the planet use.
Try this one for an icon:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KEGRNnLpr0E/UoBwMbAQ44I/AAAAAAAACgo/da3bOkvbXMo/s1600/binoculars.png
Proliphix by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 05:48 · Score: 0

I've had a Proliphix thermostat for years, which I can access and control over the internet. Nice android app, too. No not sure what the hoopla is about.
Sadly, Proliphix seems to have had a coup by marketing over engineering, in the Dilbert fashion.
WebApp runs through their servers by watermark · 2013-12-17 05:49 · Score: 2

I'm not buying a Nest, so please don't make that the quality target.
With the Nest, the thermostat sends data to their servers and your browser/phone app communicates to their server. What if they decide to close shop next year? Definitely no web access anymore. What else on the thermostat will stop working without a server to phone home to? Not to mention, if you want to find your foil hat, why do they need to know when I'm home or not?
Why can't we just have UPnP and connect directly to the thermostat? You might say that's too complicated for the average person, but that's the point of service people, to fix things you can't or don't want to fix yourself. Why do I have to give up so much because Uncle Joe still uses AOL?
Is Google the New Microsoft? by hondo77 · 2013-12-17 06:02 · Score: 1

Can't innovate anymore so they can only ride on the coattails of others.

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I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
Internet connected toasters on the horizon by WaffleMonster · 2013-12-17 06:12 · Score: 1

Recently had to install a new thermostat to run additional gizmos.
Checked around in local stores and online. Rejected Nest out of hand and anything else with a full color display and or wireless radios and settled on a Honeywell model with equivalent feature functionality.
Years ago I realized I am not a gadget whore.. I simply don't give a shit about technology unless it helps me in some tangible way to get something done.
Full color displays, Internet connections wireless radios don't help me they work against me. Additional complexity that can malfunction, break, get hacked or spy on me. Why in the hell would I want that?
Because its "new" and looks "cool'? I know how much energy my crappy old furnace uses and I know exactly when it is "on" .. it is impossible to miss.
If I want to save energy I'll freeze or invest in a furnace/heat pump. All I need is the ability to set an away schedule.
Of course they won't just accept a Bluetooth or local browser interface they all want to call home and have you register the damn things with a mothership.. after all of the epic security failures over the last few years effecting millions per failure this is exactly the kind of thing I want to do.
Finally I want a thermostat that works.. Nest is a great example of what happens when the primary goal of a device is "looking cool" while miserably failing to reliably perform its primary duty.
Venstar by PortHaven · 2013-12-17 06:13 · Score: 1

I have a Venstar wifi connected thermostat. It's not as fancy as the Nest. Doesn't learn your habits. (It also doesn't decide you don't need heat on Mondays due to Veteran's/Memorial/Columbus/etc Day.) But I can access it from Android and iPhones and adjust the heat from anywhere in the world that I have internet access. Leave on vacation, forget to turn down the heat. No problemo. Hour from arriving from home, bump up the heat so it's nice and toasty.
Won't have it in my home by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:19 · Score: 1

Google is a monster. We've seen its true colors and still you people are asking for more. No Google, no Chrome, no Android. That's it.
Temperature is only one factor by rossdee · 2013-12-17 06:19 · Score: 1

You also have to consider humidity. If you take the air outside in the winter and warm it up to over 75F it will be too dry, and you can suffer from dry skin and respiratory problems. If you don't have a humidifier you wont want to warm it up much/
Hot water heater? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:30 · Score: 0

Why do you have a *hot* water heater? Why does your hot water need heating? How hot does it have to be before it's hot enough?
(The CAPTCHA is "heaters", I shit you not.)
Re:More data to mine for their advertisers & t by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 06:37 · Score: 0

We respectfully disagree.
Signed - NSA
Misses the problem entirely by kencurry · 2013-12-17 06:37 · Score: 1

The main issue with heating/cooling for majority of homes is not that the homeowner can't set or remember to set the thermostat. It is that the house is not properly insulated, there is only one heat/cooling circuit for a multilevel home, or the house has old leaky doors and windows. Once all that infrastructure is properly done, THEN maybe add a cool web-enabled thermostat.

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sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
Raspberry pi anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 07:08 · Score: 0

I'm trying to solve this problem with a Raspberry PI (any other siilar device would be fine), a few theperature sensors
and a stepper motor meccanically connected to a very old thermostat that I cannot touch inside for legal and safety reasons (still at 220v)
A webcam would give additional feedback while not at home.
Newer thermostats work at 12v and make all much easier ( just a realy instead of the stepper motor to pull the wheel).
This would (in theory) allow to control the themperature based on the themperature of a specifc sensor at a specific time ( bedroom at night, living room in the day...) and to be controlled remotely ( very low when I'm away for long periods and starting to warm up early enough when I'm goign back home ( I may spend days away for business)
parts are substantially cheaper than any commercial producs (less than 100$), time is a bit more demanding but flexibility and privacy are unmatched.
is anybody considering a similar option?
Re:More data to mine for their advertisers & t by beanpoppa · 2013-12-17 08:14 · Score: 1

They don't need a thermostat for most of this. They know when I wake up, because that's when I pick up my phone and check my gmail. And I go to bed when I turn off my GoogleTV and set my phone on the charger.
What's wrong with getting cold medicine ads when you may have a cold? It's beats the heck out getting flooded with ads that provide nothing useful to me. When my furnace is running non-stop, I want to see ads with great deals on flights to Miami.
Now, as for selling that info to health and life insurance companies- sure. But please point me to ANYTHING that indicates that Google has done something along those lines.
Let's think this through. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:22 · Score: 0

They'll have a nice little map that shows them the optimal route to drive by houses where people aren't at home, and where their consumption of items from certain stores makes it a juicy target.
Suppose you are a burglar. Would you be more or less interested in a home that is crammed full of devices that can sense the presence of a person, are connected to the outside world, and can make decisions about how to respond based on patterns of behavior that they attribute to their owner?
Is it going to help or hurt your cause if you sneak into a home, and suddenly all the lights turn on, the home owner is paged, and they can decide via webcam whether its just their kid home late, or whether to forward a pre-formatted distress message to the police and unlatch the doberman's crate.
1. Re:Let's think this through. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 08:29 · Score: 0
  
  "Would you be more or less interested in a home that is crammed full of devices that can sense the presence of a person, are connected to the outside world, and can make decisions about how to respond based on patterns of behavior that they attribute to their owner?"
  Yes, I would be more interested in such a place, because:
  1. the power panel is somewhere on the outside of the building
  2. someone with a setup like that must have something worth taking.
  3. someone without a setup like that probably doesnt.
2. Re: Let's think this through. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-17 09:17 · Score: 0
  
  The batteries are inside the house.
Fuck web connected by HalAtWork · 2013-12-17 13:24 · Score: 1

Let it connect to my router and let me link them up via a built-in web interface and control them that way. There's no reason this shit has to go outside my LAN.

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