1.5 mbit for $30? Seriously, in Korea? I live in Japan and here average is 30 to 50 Mbit, with 3-5 Mbit up (ADSL) or 100/100Mbit Fibre. Prices are ~3500 to 5400 yen per month, most include IP Phone.
For example I pay 4500 yen (~$43) for 50/5 ADSL with ip phone. So, even in Austria, you can get 2Mbit for that price. Somehow I think that article is either very very old, or something else is wrong here.
I remember that darcs didn't have a dedicated server. That, and the fact that I already understdood and used subversion at that point, made me stay with subversion.
GNU arch, like in Thomas Loard Arch, TLA? That one where you need commands in the length of 200 words just to do something. Seriously, I tried it out and it is nothing but a showstopper, I played around 2 days getting to nowhere, then I tried subversion, after one hour I could work with it. subversion is just the best at the moment. Very easy to work with and very easy to learn.
If you read a bit in the gcc ML about the switch one of their main points is, that they want a central server, something which arch does not give them.
okay Windows XP home comes with no way to turn of administrator for a user. So each user is an Administrator making it _very_ easy for every evil person to get malware on your pc and joe average getting it without knowing it and no way to go around. It's like Ford sells two type of cars, one with seatbelts and airbags and all nifty security features and one completly without them. This is only accepted because a very minority of the world knows how PCs really work. The rest just buys and use it.
depends what you use. MS Exchange is a bad example. Take CommuniGatePro from stalker Software. Best support ever, bugs fixed in a special in between release, etc. They are just the best ever!
stability: Below standard. Bleeding Edge, often beta.
Only true for ~arch.
HAHAHA. Seriously, I am running a gentoo desktop system for more than a year and I run it (except thunderbird and gaim) all from stable and this is far from stable. Every unstable debian box is more stable.
And after such a long time, you ask yourself, WTF! why do I compile each package? It doesn't get faster, it just needs enormous time.
This was my last gentoo box, after it is moved out of production (eg I get my new box) there will be no gentoo in my life anymore. It's just too much hazzel.
I have it on all my boxes, and it works like a charm. I have tried a lot of distributions, but none other just works the way it should work like Debian.
erm, not until the newest models apple has switched to "normal" dvi. before it was the apple propriatary connector (the one that could upstream usb with the round corners). a studio display from ~2 years ago won't work with a mac mini... neither a new display with an old mac. you need converters inbetween.
vanilla kernels are for endusers. Thats a fact. This "we have to wait for the vendor kernels" is bullshit. Each vendor brews its own soup. You have zillions of flavours you nobody will ever find any bugs...
Erm, my kde is updated, its from KDE 3.3.2 which is in debian unstable. It's still crappy compared to thunderbird.
LOL, if you blow away the vendor supplied kernel and roll your own from a downloaded tarball, don't be surprised if you see challenges with CD writing all all sorts of other stuff as well. I used to compile kernels for fun - back in the day, I had to recompile the kernel on slackware v 2.x in order to get my soundblaster working, so I could play doom with sound, but seriously, this is 2004. Get a life! The kernel that my vendor ships is just right, and I have no reason to change it.
erm, if I take a "vanilla" kernel and I can't read write to scsi-cds, etc, then THIS is wrong. why should I wait for a vendor kernel? Lets go one step further, you need a self compiled kernel, because you need some special things, so then you still have to patch 100000 other patches, because the vanialla kernels are broken? Bad argument, a vanilla kernel has to work...
As to your comments about X slowness, I just don't see it - it's snappy here. Again, hardware does make a difference.
well I used Matrox, Geforce, ATI cards. It's always cripple slow for me compared to windows on the same box. Which gives the clear direction, X is slower. I don't want to buy a 500$ card just to be able to move and close windows in X faster...
As to mail clients, there are a number of linux mail clients that can do all the things you specified - BTW why should a linux mail client work in windows? kmail for instance, doesn't, but it is a very nice mail client just the same. There's just not a problem there AFAICS. And as for thunderbird, I'm sure it will get sorted out soon, if it's not already.
Kmail sucks, its horrible to use, can't have seperated POP accounts, has a crappy imap support and more crappy font support.
(shrug) I run gtk apps in a qt environment all the time, and they work fine. Even java apps, e.g., azureus, automatically adopt the same theme as the rest of my kde environment. What is your point exactly?
so you don't run mozilla, thunderbird, firefox? And Azureus has only a java-gtk binding, which will show the GTK graphics/design and not the KDE/QT design. My point is, that gnu/linux, from all the beginning will _never_ have a uniqe frontend and connections like mac os x or windows does have. I know they work on DBUS and certain other connections, but I don't see much yet...
To sum up, your comments are all very interesting, but they just don't ring true for me. I hope you find a good solution, and take care.
Yeah well, I hope those things sort out, because I love working with Linux (I do work with it every day). But there are still a lot of issues, that make it not the workstation replacement so many want it to be.
hmm, I honestly haven't tried firewire but I will do so and post here.
Yes please do so, and report any kind of bugs to the LKML.
- cd/dvd writing is working on and off
Cd and dvd writing with k3b are working fine here. If I make vcds, or backup copies of dvds, they play perfectly on the computer, and on my dvd player. When I make data cdroms they work fine, when I make music cds they play fine in my car. I just don't see any problem here, sorry
That's not the problem. If I can write, it works perfectly. Problem is that in 2.6.8 they changed the access rights which broke almost all apps that read/write from scsi cd-roms and almost all cd writers. Thats much better now, but if you have firewire cd/dvd writers, be prepared for funny things... Like it sees it as user, then not, sees it as root, and then not... jumping around in each new relese candidate... [2.6.9 does _not_ work with firewire dvd/cd writers for example]
- getting a second monitor working is a long thing and on a laptop horrible, because its difficult to have it on and off on the fly
I haven't tried 2 monitors, but I will put that on my list of things to try. I noticed that there is a very clear and straightforward looking dual monitor setup screen in yast, so I'll check it out.
Once you get it working it works, problem is getting it working. Second problem is turning it on and off dynamically (monitor attaced or not) like in Mac OS 9 or Mac OS X, or having it working good with two monitors with different resolution. this is the most horrible parts. eg mozilla on the smaller monitor will open its context menu on the bottom of the screen DOWN not UPWARDS, so you can't read anything. I think the not visible part is only blacked out for X apps not really forbidden. (but sadly I am not a xinerama profi)
- X is super slow. On my 1.4gh laptop and on my superold PIII. Windows XP is pretty fast. Even Mac OS X on and old G4 400 is faster...
I've not seen that - I get the same frame rates in ut2004, or q3a or wolfenstein that windows users get with the same hardware. I'm using nvidia cards with nvidia drivers, no idea what you were using.
forget framerates _VERY_ fast. FPS is for people with small penises or so. I speak about the gerneal "snappines" of the enviroment. I am now writing from Windows XP becaused my PCMCIA dial up card won't work in Linux, so Thunderbird and Firefox just feel "FAST". I mean, I get a context menu and I click okay, and its gone, I don't have to "wait" a view micro seconds. I have putty and I scroll out a lot of data, the CPU doesn't go to 100%, I move a window around and the cpu doesn't get hogged. It just feels more snappy. Hardware support or not.
- ever tried to open a link from thunderbird? oh no thats not so easy.
OK, so don't use thunderbird if it doesn't work. There are a number of nice, fully functional linux mail clients, no need to obsess over thunderbird.
Then tell me the one that can: IMAP, secure IMAP, Pop, SMTP, secure SMTP, support for chinese, korean, japanese, western/easter europe languages, spam filter, sorting rules, works in Mac/windows/linux, has GnuPG support, LDAP connection, etc? [and don't say evolution, thats so slow, thunderbird is road runner compared to it]. Furthermore this is a general Linux Problem. There is (not yet) a good internal connection between GTK/QT/other apps. (never will probably)
- KDE/QT looks of course different than Gnome/GTK, GTK1,... etc etc
OK, and this is a problem because? You choose the environment you like and be done with it.
hahahahahahaha, you... have never worked with a PC. do you really think all apps in linux are available for _all_ enviroments? So I can just take gjiten and recompile it against kde/qt or take k3b and recompile it a
Well I use GNU/Linux (slack,suse,redhat,mandrake,gentoo,debian) for a quite a long time. Almost 6 years now.
I work on Linux, I have Linux on the servers at my office, I love it... BUT... its completly useless and a waste of time on my home PC. Sadly - firewire doesn't work all the time - cd/dvd writing is working on and off - getting a second monitor working is a long thing and on a laptop horrible, because its difficult to have it on and off on the fly - X is super slow. On my 1.4gh laptop and on my superold PIII. Windows XP is pretty fast. Even Mac OS X on and old G4 400 is faster... - ever tried to open a link from thunderbird? oh no thats not so easy. - KDE/QT looks of course different than Gnome/GTK, GTK1,... etc etc - I just want to listen to music and not worring why I need to setup a special settings so my soundcard doesn't blocks itself when I try to put out two sounds at the same time (and no arts is _NOT_ the answer)
The very very sad true thing is, that even after all these negative things, Windows is _not_ the answer. Updating software on Debian is just so super easy, thats something you will never ever want to go back like in windows. there are still too many apps I would miss in windows and that don't work there or just not well enough (gjiten eg, mplayer, a good shell, mutt, vim).
So my final thought often is, I think I should get a MAC...
Linux is a Timehog. It's very experimental and it uses tons of time. I gave up using it at home, because I wasted too much time getting things working instead of doing something.
Seriously. If I can only run Openbox or similar on a 1.4 Ghz PIV box... Then something is wrong with Linux. Because Windows XP runs fine on them. Very fine. I think X is slow and it has nothing to do with KDE/Gnome/Xfce/fvwm2 or whatever. They are all the same slow. because all use the same code if you move a window from a to b. I use mozilla, I use xterm, I use gaim, I use thunderbird, I use gkrellm. They as slow in KDE as in Gnome as in XFCE as in whatever. X _IS_ slow. Thats a fact.
it depends. there are two ways for apt-pinning. one where you just want the package und you get a "no go" if the package is compiled (== requests) new libs or where you see "get all you need" and the package tells you it will install "all libs".
so you are right, if you install a core package it might be equal to an update to testing
X _is_ slower. This is a fact. It is slower on my sony 1.4 ghz laptop with a ati mobile 7500, and it is slower on my ibm 1.4 ghz box with a (crappy) nvidia onboard card. It's a sad fact. (at least XFree 4.3 is slower)
As a western person you want a phone to phone people. A phone here in japan is: - video - digital camera - portable game device - web browser - etc etc
The mobile phone here is like a PDA already. And DoCoMo wants to get something to compete gainst eg the Sony PSP...
yeah I know what you mean. Luckily I can try out Macs at Office and I saw the change from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X. And X is really great.
Some things that generally are great about macs
- to install an app you just move it where you want it. Thats just awesome. - printer setup is really damn easy, way easier than in windows. - dual head is just plug and play, not like in linux where you have to waste quite some time to get it work. - with X11 installed you can run almost all normal linux apps (gimp, openoffice, etc) - there are even nice virtual desktop programs (dekstop manager eg).
I just need to save up some money to get a nice mac...
Slashdot Mirror
to 1)
...
Mac OS X does exactly the same, and you don't have drag & drop right mouse button here, you have to use Option/Command to override this.
But I never understand why there is move/copy. Normaly I always move things and rarely copy
wrong, gnumeric can't load more dan 65535 rows either. I have a 121000 line csv file and gnumeric won't load more than 65K lines
cat KEN_ALL.CSV | wc -l
121452
thats more than 65K, and I can't open that in linux. neither in gnumeric nor in OO
well ... yeah:
the complete ZIP list of all japanese Cities, Prefectures, etc is way longer than the max OO can load. kinda super sucks this limit.
1.5 mbit for $30? Seriously, in Korea? I live in Japan and here average is 30 to 50 Mbit, with 3-5 Mbit up (ADSL) or 100/100Mbit Fibre. Prices are ~3500 to 5400 yen per month, most include IP Phone.
For example I pay 4500 yen (~$43) for 50/5 ADSL with ip phone. So, even in Austria, you can get 2Mbit for that price. Somehow I think that article is either very very old, or something else is wrong here.
I remember that darcs didn't have a dedicated server. That, and the fact that I already understdood and used subversion at that point, made me stay with subversion.
GNU arch, like in Thomas Loard Arch, TLA? That one where you need commands in the length of 200 words just to do something.
Seriously, I tried it out and it is nothing but a showstopper, I played around 2 days getting to nowhere, then I tried subversion, after one hour I could work with it.
subversion is just the best at the moment. Very easy to work with and very easy to learn.
If you read a bit in the gcc ML about the switch one of their main points is, that they want a central server, something which arch does not give them.
okay
Windows XP home comes with no way to turn of administrator for a user. So each user is an Administrator making it _very_ easy for every evil person to get malware on your pc and joe average getting it without knowing it and no way to go around.
It's like Ford sells two type of cars, one with seatbelts and airbags and all nifty security features and one completly without them.
This is only accepted because a very minority of the world knows how PCs really work. The rest just buys and use it.
depends what you use. MS Exchange is a bad example. Take CommuniGatePro from stalker Software. Best support ever, bugs fixed in a special in between release, etc. They are just the best ever!
Only true for ~arch.
HAHAHA. Seriously, I am running a gentoo desktop system for more than a year and I run it (except thunderbird and gaim) all from stable and this is far from stable. Every unstable debian box is more stable.
And after such a long time, you ask yourself, WTF! why do I compile each package? It doesn't get faster, it just needs enormous time.
This was my last gentoo box, after it is moved out of production (eg I get my new box) there will be no gentoo in my life anymore. It's just too much hazzel.
1) just works
2) just works
3) just works
I have it on all my boxes, and it works like a charm. I have tried a lot of distributions, but none other just works the way it should work like Debian.
erm, not until the newest models apple has switched to "normal" dvi. before it was the apple propriatary connector (the one that could upstream usb with the round corners). a studio display from ~2 years ago won't work with a mac mini ... neither a new display with an old mac. you need converters inbetween.
vanilla kernels are for endusers. Thats a fact. This "we have to wait for the vendor kernels" is bullshit. Each vendor brews its own soup. You have zillions of flavours you nobody will ever find any bugs ...
Erm, my kde is updated, its from KDE 3.3.2 which is in debian unstable. It's still crappy compared to thunderbird.
erm, if I take a "vanilla" kernel and I can't read write to scsi-cds, etc, then THIS is wrong. why should I wait for a vendor kernel? Lets go one step further, you need a self compiled kernel, because you need some special things, so then you still have to patch 100000 other patches, because the vanialla kernels are broken? Bad argument, a vanilla kernel has to work ...
As to your comments about X slowness, I just don't see it - it's snappy here. Again, hardware does make a difference.
well I used Matrox, Geforce, ATI cards. It's always cripple slow for me compared to windows on the same box. Which gives the clear direction, X is slower. I don't want to buy a 500$ card just to be able to move and close windows in X faster ...
As to mail clients, there are a number of linux mail clients that can do all the things you specified - BTW why should a linux mail client work in windows? kmail for instance, doesn't, but it is a very nice mail client just the same. There's just not a problem there AFAICS. And as for thunderbird, I'm sure it will get sorted out soon, if it's not already.
Kmail sucks, its horrible to use, can't have seperated POP accounts, has a crappy imap support and more crappy font support.
(shrug) I run gtk apps in a qt environment all the time, and they work fine. Even java apps, e.g., azureus, automatically adopt the same theme as the rest of my kde environment. What is your point exactly?
so you don't run mozilla, thunderbird, firefox? And Azureus has only a java-gtk binding, which will show the GTK graphics/design and not the KDE/QT design. My point is, that gnu/linux, from all the beginning will _never_ have a uniqe frontend and connections like mac os x or windows does have. I know they work on DBUS and certain other connections, but I don't see much yet ...
To sum up, your comments are all very interesting, but they just don't ring true for me. I hope you find a good solution, and take care.
Yeah well, I hope those things sort out, because I love working with Linux (I do work with it every day). But there are still a lot of issues, that make it not the workstation replacement so many want it to be.
hmm, I honestly haven't tried firewire but I will do so and post here.
Yes please do so, and report any kind of bugs to the LKML.
- cd/dvd writing is working on and off Cd and dvd writing with k3b are working fine here. If I make vcds, or backup copies of dvds, they play perfectly on the computer, and on my dvd player. When I make data cdroms they work fine, when I make music cds they play fine in my car. I just don't see any problem here, sorry
That's not the problem. If I can write, it works perfectly. Problem is that in 2.6.8 they changed the access rights which broke almost all apps that read/write from scsi cd-roms and almost all cd writers. Thats much better now, but if you have firewire cd/dvd writers, be prepared for funny things ... Like it sees it as user, then not, sees it as root, and then not ... jumping around in each new relese candidate ... [2.6.9 does _not_ work with firewire dvd/cd writers for example]
- getting a second monitor working is a long thing and on a laptop horrible, because its difficult to have it on and off on the fly
I haven't tried 2 monitors, but I will put that on my list of things to try. I noticed that there is a very clear and straightforward looking dual monitor setup screen in yast, so I'll check it out.
Once you get it working it works, problem is getting it working. Second problem is turning it on and off dynamically (monitor attaced or not) like in Mac OS 9 or Mac OS X, or having it working good with two monitors with different resolution. this is the most horrible parts. eg mozilla on the smaller monitor will open its context menu on the bottom of the screen DOWN not UPWARDS, so you can't read anything. I think the not visible part is only blacked out for X apps not really forbidden. (but sadly I am not a xinerama profi)
- X is super slow. On my 1.4gh laptop and on my superold PIII. Windows XP is pretty fast. Even Mac OS X on and old G4 400 is faster ...
I've not seen that - I get the same frame rates in ut2004, or q3a or wolfenstein that windows users get with the same hardware. I'm using nvidia cards with nvidia drivers, no idea what you were using.
forget framerates _VERY_ fast. FPS is for people with small penises or so. I speak about the gerneal "snappines" of the enviroment. I am now writing from Windows XP becaused my PCMCIA dial up card won't work in Linux, so Thunderbird and Firefox just feel "FAST". I mean, I get a context menu and I click okay, and its gone, I don't have to "wait" a view micro seconds. I have putty and I scroll out a lot of data, the CPU doesn't go to 100%, I move a window around and the cpu doesn't get hogged. It just feels more snappy. Hardware support or not.
- ever tried to open a link from thunderbird? oh no thats not so easy.
OK, so don't use thunderbird if it doesn't work. There are a number of nice, fully functional linux mail clients, no need to obsess over thunderbird.
Then tell me the one that can: IMAP, secure IMAP, Pop, SMTP, secure SMTP, support for chinese, korean, japanese, western/easter europe languages, spam filter, sorting rules, works in Mac/windows/linux, has GnuPG support, LDAP connection, etc? [and don't say evolution, thats so slow, thunderbird is road runner compared to it]. Furthermore this is a general Linux Problem. There is (not yet) a good internal connection between GTK/QT/other apps. (never will probably)
- KDE/QT looks of course different than Gnome/GTK, GTK1, ... etc etc
OK, and this is a problem because? You choose the environment you like and be done with it.
hahahahahahaha, you ... have never worked with a PC. do you really think all apps in linux are available for _all_ enviroments? So I can just take gjiten and recompile it against kde/qt or take k3b and recompile it a
Well I use GNU/Linux (slack,suse,redhat,mandrake,gentoo,debian) for a quite a long time. Almost 6 years now.
... BUT ... its completly useless and a waste of time on my home PC. Sadly ... ... etc etc
...
I work on Linux, I have Linux on the servers at my office, I love it
- firewire doesn't work all the time
- cd/dvd writing is working on and off
- getting a second monitor working is a long thing and on a laptop horrible, because its difficult to have it on and off on the fly
- X is super slow. On my 1.4gh laptop and on my superold PIII. Windows XP is pretty fast. Even Mac OS X on and old G4 400 is faster
- ever tried to open a link from thunderbird? oh no thats not so easy.
- KDE/QT looks of course different than Gnome/GTK, GTK1,
- I just want to listen to music and not worring why I need to setup a special settings so my soundcard doesn't blocks itself when I try to put out two sounds at the same time (and no arts is _NOT_ the answer)
The very very sad true thing is, that even after all these negative things, Windows is _not_ the answer. Updating software on Debian is just so super easy, thats something you will never ever want to go back like in windows. there are still too many apps I would miss in windows and that don't work there or just not well enough (gjiten eg, mplayer, a good shell, mutt, vim).
So my final thought often is, I think I should get a MAC
Linux is a Timehog. It's very experimental and it uses tons of time. I gave up using it at home, because I wasted too much time getting things working instead of doing something.
Seriously. If I can only run Openbox or similar on a 1.4 Ghz PIV box... Then something is wrong with Linux. Because Windows XP runs fine on them. Very fine. I think X is slow and it has nothing to do with KDE/Gnome/Xfce/fvwm2 or whatever. They are all the same slow. because all use the same code if you move a window from a to b.
I use mozilla, I use xterm, I use gaim, I use thunderbird, I use gkrellm. They as slow in KDE as in Gnome as in XFCE as in whatever. X _IS_ slow. Thats a fact.
it depends. there are two ways for apt-pinning. one where you just want the package und you get a "no go" if the package is compiled (== requests) new libs or where you see "get all you need" and the package tells you it will install "all libs".
so you are right, if you install a core package it might be equal to an update to testing
you can always use apt-pinning. run moste in stable and get what you need from testing.
X _is_ slower. This is a fact. It is slower on my sony 1.4 ghz laptop with a ati mobile 7500, and it is slower on my ibm 1.4 ghz box with a (crappy) nvidia onboard card. It's a sad fact. (at least XFree 4.3 is slower)
think japanese.
...
As a western person you want a phone to phone people. A phone here in japan is:
- video
- digital camera
- portable game device
- web browser
- etc etc
The mobile phone here is like a PDA already. And DoCoMo wants to get something to compete gainst eg the Sony PSP
yeah I know what you mean. Luckily I can try out Macs at Office and I saw the change from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X. And X is really great.
...
Some things that generally are great about macs
- to install an app you just move it where you want it. Thats just awesome.
- printer setup is really damn easy, way easier than in windows.
- dual head is just plug and play, not like in linux where you have to waste quite some time to get it work.
- with X11 installed you can run almost all normal linux apps (gimp, openoffice, etc)
- there are even nice virtual desktop programs (dekstop manager eg).
I just need to save up some money to get a nice mac
japanese cell phones are not so small anymore.
:)
Because nowadays they are
- Digital Camera
- MP3 Player
- Karaoke Machine
- TV
- Video Camera
therefore they need more space