You do realize he called a specific group of teenagers whores, right? I bet their parents weren't too happy to hear about them being mentioned by name on the radio and cable tv simultaneously in such a manner. A rapper can talk about Hos as much as they want (and I turn it off), but calling a specific person a whore? Didn't eminem have to settle lawsuits because of that?
Are you suggesting the Rutgers women basketball players and their parents jumped on Imus, not because he offended them specifically, but because they were all in on a leftist plot?
If the War on Drugs is unconventional, why are we using conventional, non-Patriot Act laws to fight it? (/. reported that it was used on drug dealers, which is where I got the reference which you didn't catch) Why are we applying those laws in an uneven manner? ie, Why should drug traffickers accused of belonging to cartels given habeus corpus, while Guantanamo detainees aren't?
The system is broken, counterproductive, and only worsening the problem. Repeal the Patriot Act and restore habeus corpus, and close Guantanamo Bay.
excuses, excuses. Should we subject drug dealers under the Patriot Act or send them to Guantanamo for being "enemy combatants out of uniform" for using "chemical weapons" during our War on Drugs?
I think Bush should have locked John Kerry up during 2004, citing secret evidence (he did say he spoke to foreign leaders who offered their help to him). If anything, the outcry would have repaired our broken justice system or made other countries turn their backs on us faster.
Yay, a troll. So what religion are the claimed "Christians" in America, UK, Serbia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Europe, Africa, etc, who specifically burn down mosques, assault women wearing headscarves, and oppress Muslims on a regular basis?
Seriously, judge a religion by what its scriptures say, not what some of its uneducated followers and hoodlums do.
People are dumped via text message in America, too. Nice try, making it seem like the 1.5 Billion Muslims all do it, and your link to an extremist website doesn't do you any wonders.
It swings both ways. How many books have you read that were originally in Arabic or Farsi? Iranian cinema is world-renowned, how many of their movies have you watched?
Sure there's arson and murder out of religious hate in America. Anti-Muslim hate crimes are at record levels in America, numerous mosques have burned down since Oklahoma City, 9/11, and the Iraq war, and gunmen opened fire on a filled Florida mosque in September. Anti-Muslim and anti-Islam rhetoric fills the airwaves in America, but it's accepted (unlike anti-Semitism).
Two words: Gujarat Massacre. 2000 minority Muslims killed by Hindu mobs in 2002, while police even helped in some cases. The trials and finger-pointing are still ongoing.
Babri mosque destroyed by Hindu mob in 1992, thousands die nationwide in resulting violence.
I'm kinda surprised you don't know about these, considering your name is Singh.
Saudi Arabia is regarded by Muslims as corrupt (the royal family breaks plenty of laws), and its laws superficial. Religious police to make sure your skin isn't exposed, but they allow interest (usury)? And I'm a Muslim saying this.
Iran is Shi'ite and Sunnis generally don't consider their government to be correct.
Ah, but you're acting like these terrorists walk about in the open in their communities. They hide from their own families and communities, who are totally innocent of this.
You think many knew of the threat the bombers posed? Guess again, the families said they were completely in the dark, and so did their friends and community members. Believe me, Muslims call the police on other Muslims. Don't blame the religion for it, since the vast majority of the UK Muslims thought this was an awful deed.
So many countries prove your theory wrong. Look at Senegal, Malaysia, Mauritania, South Africa, etc. Israel loves to brag about its Muslim minority, as if it gives them legitimacy anyways.
Yet WHAT of India, whose Muslims have had to put up with slaughters by Hindus like Gujurat, or the massacres after Ayodhya? Many Muslims split after partition because they were scared of being attacked as the minority.
Ok, I'll bite. How cheap is the Heroin in Afghanistan?
(Don't know why you bolded it. They'd probably have to go off-base to get some, right? That stuff doesn't get trafficked in that easily to a US military base, I'd assume.)
Apple updates their product lines every six months. That allows precious little time to test for such small defects that only show up after mass assembly lines.
Where did Bin Laden say that in any of his speeches? He keeps calling the US "Crusaders" which NYC seemingly is less likely than most of the US. Al Qaeda targeted NYC because it's a financial center. World TRADE CENTER? Also, the Pentagon was hit, not because it's so liberal (it is the opposite).
You're just impossible to please. There's no easy answer to the sort of problem you're throwing at me. Do you want Muslim leaders to make a fatwa saying everyone is to be pacifist? People like Saddam Hussein will then operate unhindered. (Aside from the fact that Islam isn't pacifist, it's realistic in that it acknowledges nonviolence doesn't always work, and that violence will happen and Islam tries to regulate it.)
The Muslim leaders came together and said that you can't go labeling other Muslims as apostates and killing them. It's already well-known among Muslims before 2001 that you can't go terrorizing whole populations, and those fatwas were re-issued since then. It's the mainstream, and they're working to get rid of the extremists. Look at how upset Muslims are worldwide that sicko extremists who claim to be "Muslim" are destroying and burning down mosques! The local mosque put out a condemnation press release, as did a major nearby one and CAIR nationally, not to mention the obvious condemnations on non-English media.
I feel like you're glossing over the stuff I said earlier. I wrote in a great-grandparent parent post that Sheikh Qaradawi gave a fatwa that it was a duty of Muslims to fight alongside the US in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda! He got a lot of angry letters for it, people accused him of legitimizing the killing of Afghani civillians and fratricide. However, he's still the TV preacher.
What more do you want? Muslims are against terrorism, what can we do, if we organize in the street with a big anti-terrorism banner, we won't get news coverage because people think it's obvious we don't support it. CNN didn't go into people's homes and interview Muslims on the street after 9/11, nobody asked what we thought.
Arab scholars issue joint tolerance fatwa, that no Muslim may excommunicate any other Muslim, and thus may not kill them. They also said that certain civil engineers may not give fatwas without knowledge (a dig at Osama Bin Laden).
Muslims ARE speaking out against violence and terrorism. Don't blame me if you never asked a Muslim.
If you're convinced that I'm lying to you, what can I possibly say to prove to you that I'm not? Sheesh, everyone accused the Jews of lying right up to and through the Holocaust. Didn't we learn not to make broad and false accusations about minorities and people different from you? Go read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, they're the same and openly available to Muslims and non-Muslims. Lying is a sin, and you can't lie about your religion. Lying to non-Muslims is ONLY allowed when A) a non-Muslim is threatening to kill you for being Muslim, and B) on the battlefield such as a feint or fake-retreat. Those don't apply to either situation. No Muslim is allowed to lie about what their religion says, and I'm not going to lie to a jerk on slashdot just because he's misinformed.
I'm not asking you to be an expert in Arabic, but you're giving away that you don't understand a lot about Islam when you make a simple mistake like that. It's like the man who calls tech support and tells the operator "Don't mess with me, I know a lot about Dose!"
The rest of what you say are only accusations. Show me one of these people wearing T-Shirts. Even if it were true, which I doubt, I would not support that sort of ideology. One person doesn't speak for the millions living in the country. Why is it when Jewish people talk about having a Jewish president one day, it does't cause as much consternation and outrage as when a Muslim says it?
So "Muslims" have expressed their support of violence? How can people get away with saying such broad overgeneralizing false stereotypes? So "Jews" have expressed their support of killing Arabs? So "Irish" have expressed their support of killing British? So "Christians" have expressed their support for violence? So "Americans" have expressed their support for torture?
Nice strawmanning. Did I say that terrorism is justice? The worldwide consensus of Islamic scholars is that terrorism is wrong, unIslamic, unjust, and should never happen, period. Your accusing me has no credibility.
I compare to Christianity because nobody seems to have a problem with that. You're just acting uncivilized by ad homenim attacks, so I'm going to ignore your insults and not dignify them with a reply.
Heck, keep it up, you're only hurting yourself. When people stupidly attack ALL Muslims, then even the secular and liberal Muslims are forced to pick a side.
"Either they will have to fully support freedom of expression, or fully disregard it."
Well, if you're such a free speech extremist, how come you're not supporting David Irving, in jail in Europe for saying what he believes about the holocaust? How come you aren't complaining that several European countries banned Al-Manar TV from broadcasting? People are so quick to allow political cartoons against one minority, but protect another. (Anti-Semitic speech is illegal in parts of Europe, but not anti-Arab or Islamophobic).
I don't think we need to go to either end. We already have laws against slander, libel, hate speech, and active provocation to violence. Let's extend it fairly across the board.
You're using a revisionist website definition of a "hudna," aside from so much else wrong with your accusations and misinformation.
The first Islamic truce was declared in the year 628 AD at Hodaibiya, in the course of Muhammad's (peace be upon him) fight against the pagan chiefs of Mecca. According to the version now doing the rounds in Israel, Muhammad (pbuh) broke the truce and conquered Mecca. Ergo: Don't believe the Arabs, don't believe in the Hudna.
In Arab and Islamic history books, the same event is presented quite differently. The Hudna allowed the adherents of the new faith to enter Mecca on a pilgrimage to the holy rock. The pilgrims used the opportunity to make converts. When most citizens had accepted Islam, Muhammad entered the city almost without bloodshed and was received with open arms. Ergo: already in their earliest history, Muslims realized that persuasion is better than force.
Muslims aren't allowed to lie about Islam, to each other or to non-Muslims. Muslims can't lie to non-Muslims unless they're being threatened with death. For example, Ammar ibn Yasir (ra) was tortured until he gave up his religion, but Muhammad (peace be upon him) told him it was OK to say that if he didn't mean it. It ends there.
I can tell you're just copying accusations from another poster. "Kuffar" isn't the proper grammatic word, so you're getting your so-called knowlege fourth-hand. This whole "Muslims are allowed to lie until they control the world" garbage I keep hearing smacks of the same prejudice as the Jews suffered because of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." It's propaganda that is always used when you want to get rid of people, "Sure they sound good in public, but in their secret meetings, they outline their evil plan."
If you're going to say that Surahs and Hadiths make murder allowable, I'd like you to prove it.
According to the US State Department's report, South America has more terrorism than the Middle East. You just hear more about the Middle East on the news. False perception, its like how people are more afraid of flying then driving, when cars kill so many more.
Good, now you can understand that just because terrorists or guerillas are "Christian," that doesn't make the religion to blame. From 1980-2003, the Tamil Tigers committed 76 suicide bombings, while Hamas did only 54. Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks. (source)Therefore, you can't blame the religion if secular-minded groups do it.
I am a gay man and an atheist who has no intention of following any superstitious belief, Islam included
Who is trying to force you? Sheesh, why does everyone feel so threatened that Muslims are trying to force their religion on people? Honestly, when has a Muslim ever come to you on the street and tried to convert you? When has one knocked on your door? None. Really? Have you ever had a private conversation with Muslim woman? If so, did she seem trapped? What? No? Strange. Are you completely sure the people who perpretated 9/11 were proper Muslims who followed Islam correctly? (Heck, they were in a strip club the night before) If so, would you regard the KKK as representative of normal Christian mentality?
The Penalty for Homosexual sex in public is death. According to Shariah, you need 3 witnesses of the act, which makes it pretty clear that you can't enfore this law in the privacy of your own home, and Islam regards privacy of the home as an important rule. Islam is clear that you can't go into people's homes to enforce all laws in private. Go home and worship idols, eat pork, or do anal sex if you want, nobody will stop you.
Shariah does allow adoption, although it prefers someone from the extended family. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an orphan, he had to be taken in by an uncle, so of COURSE adoption is allowed. Here's a fatwa Islamic Ruling on Adoption and Islam's stance on Adoption.
It is NOT permissible for a Muslim to lie, unless threatened by death for telling the truth. "Taqiyya" is a Shi'ite thing where they are afraid to pray differently around Sunnis. It does not usually allow a Muslim to lie to non-Muslims, and lying is a major and hellworthy sin. I resent the notion that you can't trust any Muslim. Didn't that sort of thinking lead to the Holocaust? (Besides, "Kuffar" is the wrong word anyway.)
Christians believe they will dominate the world. Oh God, I better lock my doors and avoid those Catholic neighbors of mine./sarcasm Hindus believe they will dominate the world, some Jewish leaders think Israel will as well. Why single Islam out?
Beating up the editor is regrettable, and I'm sure the Muslim leaders condemned it. If the same gay man went to the Vatican, would it be all that surprising if someone attacked him? I dunno, I'm not familiar with the incident.
I don't care if you aren't Muslim, or you dislike Islam. That's your opinion. Just don't smear all Muslims because you don't understand them. You don't even know what a dhimmi is, and it's irrelevant anyway because there is no Islamic state today.
Slashdot Mirror
You do realize he called a specific group of teenagers whores, right? I bet their parents weren't too happy to hear about them being mentioned by name on the radio and cable tv simultaneously in such a manner. A rapper can talk about Hos as much as they want (and I turn it off), but calling a specific person a whore? Didn't eminem have to settle lawsuits because of that?
Are you suggesting the Rutgers women basketball players and their parents jumped on Imus, not because he offended them specifically, but because they were all in on a leftist plot?
If the War on Drugs is unconventional, why are we using conventional, non-Patriot Act laws to fight it? ( /. reported that it was used on drug dealers, which is where I got the reference which you didn't catch) Why are we applying those laws in an uneven manner? ie, Why should drug traffickers accused of belonging to cartels given habeus corpus, while Guantanamo detainees aren't?
The system is broken, counterproductive, and only worsening the problem. Repeal the Patriot Act and restore habeus corpus, and close Guantanamo Bay.
excuses, excuses. Should we subject drug dealers under the Patriot Act or send them to Guantanamo for being "enemy combatants out of uniform" for using "chemical weapons" during our War on Drugs?
I think Bush should have locked John Kerry up during 2004, citing secret evidence (he did say he spoke to foreign leaders who offered their help to him). If anything, the outcry would have repaired our broken justice system or made other countries turn their backs on us faster.
I don't trust that, it's only rumors, like the rumor of Saddam captured having lists of every insurgent in Iraq.
Do you have a link?
How do you counter posting pictures and addresses of abortion clinic doctors?
Yay, a troll. So what religion are the claimed "Christians" in America, UK, Serbia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Europe, Africa, etc, who specifically burn down mosques, assault women wearing headscarves, and oppress Muslims on a regular basis?
Seriously, judge a religion by what its scriptures say, not what some of its uneducated followers and hoodlums do.
People are dumped via text message in America, too. Nice try, making it seem like the 1.5 Billion Muslims all do it, and your link to an extremist website doesn't do you any wonders.
It swings both ways. How many books have you read that were originally in Arabic or Farsi? Iranian cinema is world-renowned, how many of their movies have you watched?
Will the 5th Generation iPod probably die? Will the 466MHz iBook ever die?
Sure there's arson and murder out of religious hate in America. Anti-Muslim hate crimes are at record levels in America, numerous mosques have burned down since Oklahoma City, 9/11, and the Iraq war, and gunmen opened fire on a filled Florida mosque in September. Anti-Muslim and anti-Islam rhetoric fills the airwaves in America, but it's accepted (unlike anti-Semitism).
Babri mosque destroyed by Hindu mob in 1992, thousands die nationwide in resulting violence.
I'm kinda surprised you don't know about these, considering your name is Singh.
Saudi Arabia? Iran? Neither.
Saudi Arabia is regarded by Muslims as corrupt (the royal family breaks plenty of laws), and its laws superficial. Religious police to make sure your skin isn't exposed, but they allow interest (usury)? And I'm a Muslim saying this.
Iran is Shi'ite and Sunnis generally don't consider their government to be correct.
Ah, but you're acting like these terrorists walk about in the open in their communities. They hide from their own families and communities, who are totally innocent of this.
You think many knew of the threat the bombers posed? Guess again, the families said they were completely in the dark, and so did their friends and community members. Believe me, Muslims call the police on other Muslims. Don't blame the religion for it, since the vast majority of the UK Muslims thought this was an awful deed.
"Take up the white man's burden..."
So many countries prove your theory wrong. Look at Senegal, Malaysia, Mauritania, South Africa, etc. Israel loves to brag about its Muslim minority, as if it gives them legitimacy anyways.
Yet WHAT of India, whose Muslims have had to put up with slaughters by Hindus like Gujurat, or the massacres after Ayodhya? Many Muslims split after partition because they were scared of being attacked as the minority.
You're just a troll.
Ok, I'll bite. How cheap is the Heroin in Afghanistan?
(Don't know why you bolded it. They'd probably have to go off-base to get some, right? That stuff doesn't get trafficked in that easily to a US military base, I'd assume.)
Apple updates their product lines every six months. That allows precious little time to test for such small defects that only show up after mass assembly lines.
Where did Bin Laden say that in any of his speeches? He keeps calling the US "Crusaders" which NYC seemingly is less likely than most of the US. Al Qaeda targeted NYC because it's a financial center. World TRADE CENTER? Also, the Pentagon was hit, not because it's so liberal (it is the opposite).
The Muslim leaders came together and said that you can't go labeling other Muslims as apostates and killing them. It's already well-known among Muslims before 2001 that you can't go terrorizing whole populations, and those fatwas were re-issued since then. It's the mainstream, and they're working to get rid of the extremists. Look at how upset Muslims are worldwide that sicko extremists who claim to be "Muslim" are destroying and burning down mosques! The local mosque put out a condemnation press release, as did a major nearby one and CAIR nationally, not to mention the obvious condemnations on non-English media.
I feel like you're glossing over the stuff I said earlier. I wrote in a great-grandparent parent post that Sheikh Qaradawi gave a fatwa that it was a duty of Muslims to fight alongside the US in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda! He got a lot of angry letters for it, people accused him of legitimizing the killing of Afghani civillians and fratricide. However, he's still the TV preacher.
What more do you want? Muslims are against terrorism, what can we do, if we organize in the street with a big anti-terrorism banner, we won't get news coverage because people think it's obvious we don't support it. CNN didn't go into people's homes and interview Muslims on the street after 9/11, nobody asked what we thought.
In answer to one of your complaints,
CAIR issues fatwa against terrorism.
Arab scholars issue joint tolerance fatwa, that no Muslim may excommunicate any other Muslim, and thus may not kill them. They also said that certain civil engineers may not give fatwas without knowledge (a dig at Osama Bin Laden).
Muslims ARE speaking out against violence and terrorism. Don't blame me if you never asked a Muslim.
If you're convinced that I'm lying to you, what can I possibly say to prove to you that I'm not? Sheesh, everyone accused the Jews of lying right up to and through the Holocaust. Didn't we learn not to make broad and false accusations about minorities and people different from you? Go read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, they're the same and openly available to Muslims and non-Muslims. Lying is a sin, and you can't lie about your religion. Lying to non-Muslims is ONLY allowed when A) a non-Muslim is threatening to kill you for being Muslim, and B) on the battlefield such as a feint or fake-retreat. Those don't apply to either situation. No Muslim is allowed to lie about what their religion says, and I'm not going to lie to a jerk on slashdot just because he's misinformed.
I'm not asking you to be an expert in Arabic, but you're giving away that you don't understand a lot about Islam when you make a simple mistake like that. It's like the man who calls tech support and tells the operator "Don't mess with me, I know a lot about Dose!"
The rest of what you say are only accusations. Show me one of these people wearing T-Shirts. Even if it were true, which I doubt, I would not support that sort of ideology. One person doesn't speak for the millions living in the country. Why is it when Jewish people talk about having a Jewish president one day, it does't cause as much consternation and outrage as when a Muslim says it?
So "Muslims" have expressed their support of violence? How can people get away with saying such broad overgeneralizing false stereotypes? So "Jews" have expressed their support of killing Arabs? So "Irish" have expressed their support of killing British? So "Christians" have expressed their support for violence? So "Americans" have expressed their support for torture?
Nice strawmanning. Did I say that terrorism is justice? The worldwide consensus of Islamic scholars is that terrorism is wrong, unIslamic, unjust, and should never happen, period. Your accusing me has no credibility.
I compare to Christianity because nobody seems to have a problem with that. You're just acting uncivilized by ad homenim attacks, so I'm going to ignore your insults and not dignify them with a reply.
Heck, keep it up, you're only hurting yourself. When people stupidly attack ALL Muslims, then even the secular and liberal Muslims are forced to pick a side.
"Either they will have to fully support freedom of expression, or fully disregard it."
Well, if you're such a free speech extremist, how come you're not supporting David Irving, in jail in Europe for saying what he believes about the holocaust? How come you aren't complaining that several European countries banned Al-Manar TV from broadcasting? People are so quick to allow political cartoons against one minority, but protect another. (Anti-Semitic speech is illegal in parts of Europe, but not anti-Arab or Islamophobic).
I don't think we need to go to either end. We already have laws against slander, libel, hate speech, and active provocation to violence. Let's extend it fairly across the board.
You're using a revisionist website definition of a "hudna," aside from so much else wrong with your accusations and misinformation.
The first Islamic truce was declared in the year 628 AD at Hodaibiya, in the course of Muhammad's (peace be upon him) fight against the pagan chiefs of Mecca. According to the version now doing the rounds in Israel, Muhammad (pbuh) broke the truce and conquered Mecca. Ergo: Don't believe the Arabs, don't believe in the Hudna.
In Arab and Islamic history books, the same event is presented quite differently. The Hudna allowed the adherents of the new faith to enter Mecca on a pilgrimage to the holy rock. The pilgrims used the opportunity to make converts. When most citizens had accepted Islam, Muhammad entered the city almost without bloodshed and was received with open arms. Ergo: already in their earliest history, Muslims realized that persuasion is better than force.
I can tell you're just copying accusations from another poster. "Kuffar" isn't the proper grammatic word, so you're getting your so-called knowlege fourth-hand. This whole "Muslims are allowed to lie until they control the world" garbage I keep hearing smacks of the same prejudice as the Jews suffered because of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." It's propaganda that is always used when you want to get rid of people, "Sure they sound good in public, but in their secret meetings, they outline their evil plan."
If you're going to say that Surahs and Hadiths make murder allowable, I'd like you to prove it.
According to the US State Department's report, South America has more terrorism than the Middle East. You just hear more about the Middle East on the news. False perception, its like how people are more afraid of flying then driving, when cars kill so many more.
Good, now you can understand that just because terrorists or guerillas are "Christian," that doesn't make the religion to blame. From 1980-2003, the Tamil Tigers committed 76 suicide bombings, while Hamas did only 54. Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks. (source)Therefore, you can't blame the religion if secular-minded groups do it.
The Penalty for Homosexual sex in public is death. According to Shariah, you need 3 witnesses of the act, which makes it pretty clear that you can't enfore this law in the privacy of your own home, and Islam regards privacy of the home as an important rule. Islam is clear that you can't go into people's homes to enforce all laws in private. Go home and worship idols, eat pork, or do anal sex if you want, nobody will stop you.
Shariah does allow adoption, although it prefers someone from the extended family. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an orphan, he had to be taken in by an uncle, so of COURSE adoption is allowed. Here's a fatwa Islamic Ruling on Adoption and Islam's stance on Adoption.
It is NOT permissible for a Muslim to lie, unless threatened by death for telling the truth. "Taqiyya" is a Shi'ite thing where they are afraid to pray differently around Sunnis. It does not usually allow a Muslim to lie to non-Muslims, and lying is a major and hellworthy sin. I resent the notion that you can't trust any Muslim. Didn't that sort of thinking lead to the Holocaust? (Besides, "Kuffar" is the wrong word anyway.)
Christians believe they will dominate the world. Oh God, I better lock my doors and avoid those Catholic neighbors of mine. /sarcasm Hindus believe they will dominate the world, some Jewish leaders think Israel will as well. Why single Islam out?
Beating up the editor is regrettable, and I'm sure the Muslim leaders condemned it. If the same gay man went to the Vatican, would it be all that surprising if someone attacked him? I dunno, I'm not familiar with the incident.
I don't care if you aren't Muslim, or you dislike Islam. That's your opinion. Just don't smear all Muslims because you don't understand them. You don't even know what a dhimmi is, and it's irrelevant anyway because there is no Islamic state today.