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If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
The Netherlands. The fact that I couldn't become a citizen and I can't speak the language stops me. Oh yeah, plus I like America still. :-)
Yay, I have a sig.
1) Hell :-)
2) Hell
I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.
Infuriate left and right
Warm beach with girls. Money.
This thread is now closed. Please submit next Slashdot story.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
But I'm in America by choice, and will be for a loooooong time. I friggin' love it here, warts and all. Lived in Latin America, raised in Canada, and there's no place I'd rather be.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Not sure if the link is broke or if it's my work proxy but here's the Google Cache.
More on topic, most people won't/don't leave due to funds of moving. The closest place I'd venture most would move to is Canada.
Mr. Universe: "They can't stop the signal, Mal. They can never stop the signal."
It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.
Van Allen Radiation Belt
Not because of this pipe dream bullshit of leaving the US because it "sucks", but because I can retire 20 years earlier than I could if I stayed in the US. I've even bought land. Better than my $400K house in the city now at 1/100th of the cost.
In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet. On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!
:)
I'd rather go live out in the nowhereness of Canada or Australia or something and get out of the way, but there's no hope for any of that in the near future as countries have lots of quirky requirements, laws, and rules for gaining entry
Well, not really, but by the time I was 25 I have had tech jobs in both Japan and Germany(I'm currently in the fatherland). While there certainly are some good aspects to living abroad, being away from home can kind of suck. My mom was hit by a car recently, she is ok but the feeling that you are so far away never helps the situation.
My advice to Americans is to learn another language and to not rule anything out. Though I would suggest Asia, because that seems to be where the future is headed. I plan on going back to the states for a few years to get my PhD then heading out somewhere in Asia(probably not Japan because although they have had some nice growth recently, the sun is setting. Plus white fanboys give foreigners a bad name there).
Monstar L
I love America, and don't want to leave; however, I see multiple reasons why I may be 'forced' to leave: the impact of our massive debt on the future economy, the shift to a stronger executive branch (and what this might yield), and the impact of a swelling unsupported lower/debtor class. If in a situation where I felt I had no other options, I'd move to Vienna, Austria. Every time I've been there, I've been enthralled by the people, the cleanliness, the relatively hands-off government (at least compared to some European and particularly Scandinavian countries), the wealth of job opportunities, the high proportion of English speakers, and the area's focus on health and fitness. It has always seemed like a home away from home.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
Living just to the north of much of the United States, I often offer Stateside friends crash space in my basement in the event that things go completely pear-shaped where they live. Sure, we could be violently annexed in a depressingly short amount of time (and our supplies of uranium, oil, fresh water and lumber might make us a delectable target), but it's a relatively short trip. Besides, beyond Canadian Bacon, there hasn't really been any real effort to add us to the Axis of Evil.
If it were not for the money, language, and responsibility issues, I'd move to a Scandanavian country in a heartbeat.
As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.
I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.
My little site.
To immigrate to canada you must speak french, eat poutine and KD, and watch HNIC. It snows all year long and sorry we're full!
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
* a country where the media and the politicians don't do their best to induce fear and unrest from relatively minor threats (lightning, I believe is still a bigger threat to the average american, than terrorism)
* a country where the most popular news feeds are actually independent
* a country that wouldn't embarras me with a completely selfish and brutally violent foreign policy
I follow world politics carefully and am generally politically active. While it frightens me to see what's been happening in Canada lately (closely mirroring the US), we in Quebec have managed to avoid a lot of the nonsense using French as a form of natural encryption (allowing us to talk about things we're not supposed to talk about in English). I'm not kidding.. :) Our media here is much more aggressive.
We have a strong local economy (despite the reports you may happen to read in Ontario and Alberta) and relaxed attitudes about work and "sins" (quickest declining religious affiliation in North America).
Good, polite, and fearless Americans: come visit Montreal, meet a Quebecois girl, and enjoy a multicultural, free and well educated people.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
to Bill Clinton's America an option?
Amsterdam and you know damn well why.
I've given this a lot of thought and time over the years actually. The conclusion? I don't know. There's either too many trade-offs or differing but equivalent moral quandries for every destination I've thought of. At least some of the most obvious countries (the UK, Canada et al) are starting to suffer some of what we've seen here in the US. Misery, company and all that.
Good question. If you find an answer, let me know.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
you have to buy your island, dude ;) Then you can do whatever you want with nobody to bug you.
Is it just me or is it not going to upgrade to Vista in here?
We do everything America does, only we do a worse job, less efficiently, and with none of the individual rights in our Constitution* that you enjoy in the United States which allow the courts to pull the executive and congress back into line every now and then.** Although we have no president or equivalent, our parliament is a virtual dictatorship at present and crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason. We lack media diversity, and general awareness of political and human rights issues is virtually non-existent in the wider populace even by US standards.
In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.
* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose
** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line
Read Pynchon.
Bang zoom.
I moved to Austria.
I'll admit that the problems in the US weren't the only reason but they were a big motivating factor.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Countries and societies differ from one another (this is generally a good thing). So do people. Even without dissatisfaction with current events there's nothing strange about perhaps fitting in better in some other place than where you happened to be born. Just like a country boy may be happest in a major city or lifetime city dwellers can find their true life on a farm, so can people find that they're happier in some societies than in other.
Me, I have lived in several countries, and found myself happiest in one of them - and that's not where I was born and raised.
If you want to move, do move for a year or two only at first. You can't know what a place really is like to live in after just a few weeks or a month. The best way to get the opportunity is probably to get a serious education. Many countries welcome specialists like scientists or health-care workers even if they're very closed otherwise. And once you're "in" it becomes easier to stay permanently if that's what you want; a lot of countries will give you a permanent residency or similar if you've been there long enough, have steady empleoyment and so on.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Off of Earth on another habitable planet or place. Of course, that's not easily possible for us people to do that at this time. ISS (not the one from MS) is not suitable. :P
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I know people think its silly but I love France. It's a nice place, I've lived there before and I like it. I mean, Paris is beautiful and chicks dig my accent.
:)
Whats stopping me? I like America, my family is here, my job is here, my studies can't be carried over right now. Oh yeah, and I'm really poor
Mod me up, mod me down, do your worst you modding clown.
> 1) Where would you live, if not in America
Canada.
> and 2) What's stopping you from going?
Immigration Canada is pretty slow, and they want a TON of paperwork. Seriously, a letter from every employer I've ever had? Are you kidding me? I'm looking at about another 3 years before I get in.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Mars.
it will take your breath away.
(No, seriously, that's the reason why NOT to go)
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
I am currently living in Japan but looking forward to going back to the US once my school term is over. The lack of Wild Cherry Pepsi here is atrocious and I could never again live in a country without it.
Only cowards emmigrate. I have been TOLD to leave the US by many a neo-con, but there are only a few places I would move, and I do not desire to do so. But to answer the qustion...
Sweden
Norway
Japan
All I can think of really, and in that order.
Great Intellect...
I decided years ago that if I ever had to leave (for whatever reason), I'd head for Belize -- a beautiful, low-key, English-speaking country -- can't go wrong as far as I'm concerned.
I have been told to avoid the drug cartels in Belize City, but that's certainly not a deal-breaker.
Belize Motto: Sub Umbra Floreo ("Under the Shade I Flourish")
Japan, I love being able to take a train where ever I want to go, and think it's absolutely wonderful there. I know it has it's problems, but at least as a noncitizen I know I'd have no control over it anyway, so it wouldn't bother me so much.
The reason why I have not gone there yet is simple. There's this thing called a work visa, and I don't meet the requirements for it. It requires a 4 year degree or 10 years of work experience in the field that you are going to work in, in Japan. I have 1 year to go before I hit 10 years. I've been working on collecting documentation for that.
Were I to move, I'd head to Canada. My girlfriend's a Canadian citizen, and she has family and friend there, plus she's hankering to move back eventually. Also, it's an absolutely beautiful country; the people seem nice, friendly, and well-educated; it's safe; and I prefer their form of government to that of the U.S. The fact that it's a neighbor to the U.S. is another plus; I'd certainly miss my own family and friends, so being just north would make visits easier.
I'm here already.
New Zealand and money (but I'm working on that). I've actually wanted to move their since I was a young boy, so it seemed the logical choice when politically motivated to start looking elsewhere. It has one of the most transparent govnerments in the world. Further, and more importantly in my mind, land is cheap there, and as soon as I have enough saved I want to purchase enough to have a vineyard/farm. I am, after all, part of the "technofreak-hippie" culture (or I just want to live away from teems of humanity, and be as self-reliant as possible.)
"our parliament is a virtual dictatorship"
If by "dictatorship" you mean elected body, then yes.
"crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason"
The last time a member of the ruling Coalition -- and not the opposition parties, which vote against Coalition legislation frequently -- crossed the floor was about a year ago, but internal dissent scuppered some immigration laws this year. Anyway, since when was the measure of a democracy the lack of discipline of the ruling party? What's undemocratic about an elected ruling party voting for its own legislation? On the contrary, if, after being elected with a majority in both houses, the government were unable to make new laws, that would be a failure of democracy.
"with none of the individual rights in our Constitution"
Our constitution may suck, but Australia is still a free country. Freedom House rated us a 1 1, meaning we have an excellent record on both civil liberties and political rights.
Come to Australia. Our GDP per capita is higher than the major European countries', and our Human Development Index is third in the world -- behind only Iceland and Norway.
Costa Rica. They don't hate Americans. You can drink the water (if you were wondering).Great weather. No army. Easy immigration. Democracy. Universal health care. I'm leaving because I was arrested and held in jail for 2 days for not having my dogs licensed in a town they didn't live in. Yes, you read that right. I had already been convicted of not having my dogs licensed, with no notice even of any infraction, much less a trial. Had no right to appear before a judge, or even call a lawyer. That's for people who haven't already been convicted. Welcome to the law for and by bored small town cops. Northern Wisconsin, for any who were wondering.
The United States will be having Congressional elections in a few weeks. Hopefully the dems will get control and do something about the White House.
Since when did Slashdot become a political forum? Questions like that are usually somehow related to technology. This seems more like a baited question.
My parents emmigrated here when I was seven. I am almost 24 now. There's a reason why America is so diverse; people from all over the world want to live here. There are two types of people that don't like it here; either they are Americans who are ignorant about life outside of America or they are ignorant because they don't live in America (government censorship/propaganda). Don't get me wrong; there are many things wrong with they way our government is run. Nevertheless, in response to the original post, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Vacation; well, that's a different story.
I for one am eagerly awaiting the Nov. 7 elections to see what this country's future is going to look like.
Some are predicting 1994 all over again -- I at least am fairly confident the Dems will get the House.
But regardless, I will not be leaving America because I am committed to the FSP
My UID is bigger than yours.
Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country.
Off the cuff, I can think of specific names of prominent lefties who've said they want to leave the country (generally based on condition -- e.g., Bush winning again in '04), but I can't think of any people on the right.
Is it just I can't think of them/haven't heard of it? Are there prominent conservatives who declared they'll leave the country if ______ happens?
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
If American's are so free and brave, why don't they step up to the plate and fix the problems in their own back yard?
Seriousley. You live in a democracy. You have a lot of problems. Fix it yourself. Not sure how? Ask for help.
Those of us in our own home regions have our own problems, and every country and collective of residents faces problems of their own.
I would go to Israel.
Problems? You bet. Worth it? For sure.
I'd go if I could be guaranteed a lifestyle comparible to one obtainable here in America. I love my countries but I do wonder sometimes...
Keep the faith, share the code
I've talked to Westerners on the net who defend the "right" of Japanese establishments to put up signs forbidding foreigners from entry. You could become the spineless conformists like them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeK0Trz9E0
Finland: Land of metal, IRC, and hot chicks speaking a really strange language
Registered Linux user #421033
It's always interesting to see how the Slashdot Editors modify story submissions. In this case they left out my link to a boing boing story that might be useful for those trying to get out of America. What's the matter guys? Do you think of boing boing as a rival?
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
I just happened to see a post the other day about a guide to leaving America with stories and advice from expatriates around the world
"They've canceled the show but we're still here. What does that make us?" "Big Damn Junkies, Sir!" "Ain't we just"
It's horrible up here. You Americans would hated it here. Don't come up here. There's nothing here and it's cold as ice. And our official language is French. You won't understand a word we say. Oh and we make new immigrants wear silly beaver hats for the first year so we can identify and ridicule them. It's all very horrible. No human rights at all if you know what I mean. You Americans should head down to Mexico. There's already tunnels in El Paso dug for you by poor Mexicans. Just pack up and you are ready to go.
In Australia we've just passed a law yesterday putting the burden of proof on the parent that they've not abused their children. That's right - presumed innocence is gone. I you're arrested for sedition you aren't allowed to tell anybody. If you do, they can be arrested as well as anyone they've told.
I would - and am - moving to a lesser developed country. I've decided not were yet, I am to become a missionary. The money is building in the bank as I write and I'll be leaving when my lease runs out in July '07.
Because I don't want a bunch of Americans following me, and I'm leaving just a soon as I tidy up a few personal things. Adios Amigos. But hey, you could always try Australia.
Australian running a company that does C# / C++ / Java / SQL / Python / Mathematica
I'm just sticking out a few more years in the USA to finish college (and become legal). I've put essentially all my life towards answering the question in this post, and I'd say either India or Scandinavia (if I had to choose one, it would be one of those). I don't want to settle down on one place though. I do RentACoder work and make enough to survive in a foreign country, so I plan to do that (but most likely move on and start getting clients independent of RAC). So my work will allow me to be completely mobile and see the world. When I turn 18, I'll be 2 years through college, and might just say "screw it" and not finish my education. I plan to at least see India for that summer, but I might just stay and never come back to the USA.
Since when did Slashdot become a political forum?
Politics has always been part of Slashdot. More than a few of us think politics is just as important as technology. After all, a topic like the EU's actions against Microsoft is rife with politics, and Microsoft can't put you in jail, make war on another country, or tax you.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Firstly, I don't live in the US, you insenstive clod. I'm an aussie, and I thoroughly recommend Australia. It's not just jingoism - I've lived in Australia, Canada and Thailand and travelled widely in the US, UK and throughout Asia and Australia still holds my heart. It's warm, pleasant and the people are kind. Canada is a close second, being cold but also with kind people. The government isn't quite so far along selling our rights to the highest bidder and there isn't rampant patriotism about anything but sports. The standard of living is high and we have abundant natural resources. Our tech sector is doing well and the market is screaming for engineers. We have real beer. No, seriously - real beer. I recommend starting out with a light 'training beer' before moving on to the regular stuff. We have roads where you can legally drive as fast as you want without the risk of running into anything but sand. We also boast some of the most lethal wildlife, anywhere. Our vernacular is colourful, distinctive and fun. Ninety per cent of all Australians live in cites, so you're always close to infrastructure and services. The other 10 percent don't count to anyone but politicians hoping for over-represented marginal electroate votes. Most of the world does not hate us. It is important to wear a small aussie flag on your stuff when traveling abroad. Most people have figured out that anyone wearing a huge Canadian flag is a yank in disguise and no American could ever impersonate an Australian without years of training and beer. Very little of our public space is wasted on flags, pennets and patriotic material. We don't need to constantly remind ourselves of which country we live in. We have rampant multi-culturalism. Not melting pot, but multi-culturalism. All sorts of people living together in relative harmony. This means good things in the food court. You can walk down alleyways in the dingiest parts of the city and reasonably expect not to get mugged. We use metric. We speak real English. Most of us can spell. Yes, we can teach you, too. Most importantly, you can live on an island thousands of kilometers away from the rest of the world, in relative secluded harmony, concerned only for who will win the cricket and whether we can fit in another beer before the barbeque.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
I believe these united States of America border 565 different nations. Wouldn't it be as simple as choosing from one of those? I would imagine that at least one of them has a lax immigration policy.
If you are going to mess up your own country, and then leave, what makes you think we want you to come to ours and mess it up to.
This applies to pretty much anyone who
a) Wants to come here and change things to make here more like the place they just left.
b) Wants to come here and moan about why it's not like home.
c) Wants to come here and try to create a little bit of home, only talk to / socialise with / work with expats from their old country.
And especially
d) Wants to tell us that the way we live is ungodly and imoral, and change our laws to the way they think.
If you actually like the way we live, and you want to come here, learn our languages, go to our schools, live our lifestyles, and in short become one of us, then we'll pick you up at the airport.
Have a nice day all y'all.
D
http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
(1) Australia, and (2) I did.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
AFRICA.. I'm allready there.. it's technologically advanced!
Why leave america? consider moving to the other america... Austmerica! We are just south of the equator and kinda upside down. We have some new states for you to add to your national map, New South York, Queensfornia, Western Alabama, Northern Arkansas, Texmania, South Alabama, Vicgina. While your here you are welcome to eat all the fine unique foods we have here, things like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, still not feeling at home then how about the some Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew. You can play baseball, ice hockey, and even grid iron (but you will have to look hard for that one). Also feel right at home as you get processed by virtually the same legal system as the USA we try to make you feel right at home by allowing the MPAA and RIAA virtually do what they like....
Where to move? Vancouver, British Columbia (because it is beautiful), Winnipeg, Manitoba (close to my relatives in Northern and Southern Minnesota), Toronto, Ontario (close to my wife's relatives in Michigan, and to NYC), London, UK (to get the hell out of North America and to a place where understatement is appreciated), Singapore (who wouldn't want to live in a clean city?), The Big Island, Hawaii (a guy can hope for them to cede, and it's f-ing beautiful). Maybe Stockholm, Sweeden; but only during the summers.
Why not move? My wife works for Obsidian Entertainment as a designer, I'm still working on my PhD in Computer Science Theory, our combined job prospects in the short term are better exactly where we are, my wife would *kill* me if I made her quit, moving off the continent would make it just about impossible to visit relatives, etc.
and keep trying to fix the system from the inside instead or running away.
Isle of Mann seems interesting, but it can be difficult to get a work permit there.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
1) Norway
2) Nothing. Moving this December, in time for Scandinavian Christmas.
"The truth shall make ye fret" -- The Truth, Terry Pratchett
Every time I see an article like this [cnn.com], I truly feel as if I do not belong here.
:p
Best education, and the most freedom of press in the world. Unfortunately I'm not yet fluent in Swedish.
I like you, do you like me!?
It's worth noting that the majority of the time, it isn't people who say that their country sucks and they want to leave, it's the patriotic goosesteppers who yell at anyone with any criticism and tell them "America, love it or leave it!"
Just thought I'd point that out. Frankly, one answer to this question could be: (1) Anywhere but here. (2) American psychopaths who pass themselves off as patriots.
Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us
We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too
#
Yea. DAMN insane cold they have, compared the mediterranean. civil, but icy.
Read radical news here
Every person in the US either got here because they came from another country, or because their ancestors came here from another country. That includes the Native Americans, who got here over the land bridge. Americans have a long history of deciding to leave to go someplace better - including the westward migration, right up to the present day.
Because Belgium, sorry to say it, sucks. A country with a single language and no violence or complete hostility because you don't speak french would be very nice. Americans actually react positively when you say you speak 4 languages, instead of making a sniping comment about how your french is not perfect. (sorry I'm frustrated on this topic)
Also the wide open spaces in the US seem kinda nice. The US actually still has a countryside.
But need to finish lots of stuff here, then get a job, apparently some sort of "sponsor" etc (?). so it will not be for at least a few years.
I also kinda like the culture of personal responsability that there seems to be in the US. That you actually can and should take charge of yourself. In Belgium it's not the fault of a killer that he murdered, it's "the system". So they let guys like this go see football (no joke), and obviously, this idiocy does not reduce violence, it increases it massively. We sue more cops for brutality than thieves, and yet this does not seem idiotic for some reason.
But to see this culture I guess I'd have to stay in the US for a number of years, and I'd also like to live in Japan for a few years. Just to explore the life of these people, and in Russia, because I've met many Russians and I don't understand anything they do. And I still want to ask how to drink an entire bottle of vodka without losing conciousness.
Before I moved to Oregon, I was itchin' to move abroad. As many others have mentioned, Austria is quite attractive. When I was backpacking around Europe a few years ago, I was SOO tempted to take a job at the hostel in Salzburg and just stay. I speak some German. So that would have made it easier. But I chickened out.
:-)
Canada is another option, but it doesn't really seem all that different than the US.
Now that I have moved to Oregon (Portland) from Chicago, things have changed. I have no desire to leave the US other than for travel. I've found the perfect mix of urban livign and the Great Outdoors. I think that is what I was really looking for while I was living in Chicago. It wasn't a cultural or political problem. I just needed to get outdoors more... lush old growth forests and all that.
It also helps that Portland is pretty liberal. It also has a healthy Open Source community. I live like 10 miles from Linus Torvalds.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Thank you for ably demonstrating another aspect of Australian life - a frighteningly anti-democratic attitude to dissent.
:)
And, frankly, we would rather have a pom who loves the country than the whinger who rekons life here is soooooo bad.
Who is this 'we' you speak of? Am I part of 'we'? I thought I was. I guess not.
Come to Australia, we have plenty of land; though we could stand some more water.
Actually, we have an absolutely chronic water problem and can't sustain our current population. We have 'plenty of land' in the same sense that northern Africa has 'plenty of land', i.e. it's mostly uninhabitable desert and the rest is fast approaching its natural limits in terms of water use.
But, please, only if you dont plan to sit around on your fat arse and whinge about everything. Cant stand bloody whingers. We all have to vote here, so any problem you have with your own reality is entirely your problem.
Hitler was democratically elected. A society should be judged on how it treats its worst and weakest, not on whether a bare majority can dictate terms to a bare minority. As it so happens, I can't stand arrogant fools who attempt to stifle legitimate discussion of socio-political issues, so please don't come if you're one of those either.
If you dont like it, fix it, if you cant fix it, deal with it, if you cant deal with it, piss off
Funny, I thought discussing the issues was the way to 'fix it'. Apparently I should just stop 'whinging' though. What is intriguing about your ranting is the assumption that you are the one entitled to make these decisions - what gives you any more right than the 'whingers' who 'can't deal with it' to decide who should remain in the country? And do you, by implication, believe that there is no place for dissent in Australia?
Read Pynchon.
Souther than texas or florida..
.. have responsibilities here
norther than antarctica
and not for a while
= Grow a brain...
When we moved here from the U.K. some ten years ago, it was a case of "The Aussies will be ok, they've never pi**ed anyone off, who'd want to bother them".
These days, however, we have good old Johnny Howard getting up close and personal with Shrub and Blair, pi**ing everybody off and making us almost as big a target as all the other Iraq invaders. Nice one Johnny.
These days the Kiwi's islands are looking a far better and safer bet.
Go permanent? In your dreams and my worst nightmares.
Really though, even faking mentally challenged would be a total drain on my life.
Storm
That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?
Easy. 1) New Zealand, 2) Money (or the lack thereof).
If you think hard, probably two things are keeping people to go where they think (or know) their lives would be better (for them, since this is as much subjective as objective):
- people: family, friends, neighbors, you name it, people can become very attached to others,
- financial resources: if you have to work 10-16 hours a day for living, paying mortages, etc., schooling your kids, its not that easy to just stand up and leave.
Until the average level of living throughout the planet won't reach a certain level, most people will just be stuck to places, all their lives long, give or take a few travels.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
If I can sell my house here and by a house in Brazil for 1/4 the price that's twice as nice, and if I can live in Brazil comfortably for 1/3 the cost here. How long can I live on the difference and how young do I have to die to retire now and move to the beaches and music... I'm 54, so I might be getting close if I figure I'm only going to make to 75 anyway...
Being a second-gen immigrant of Canada, I still know bunch of people back in the Asian countries that want to move to North America.
So why don't I tally up your votes of places that American want to move to. Then I can tell my friends that, "hey, if you guys want to move to America, and the American wants to move to say Panama, then why don't you just skip the middle step and move to Panama instead" ~
I always find it interesting that I know a lot of expatroits living in the US and most boast of how much better it is in their home country yet they live in the US. I've lived in Europe and New Zealand for extended periods. I like both places but there were negatives as well. Really all you are doing is trading one set of problems for another. The US has changed a lot and not for the better. There was no doubt that it was the best place to live in the 60s and 70s, when I was growing up. Now it's more of a flip of the coin. The US is no worse than any other place but we have lost our place as the best place to live. What we risk is starting to fall behind other countries. Yes there are already places with more personal freedom than the US, our current government seems to consider most of the Constitution to be a list of amusing suggestions, but they also have negatives as well. What I really see happening is the world itself is becoming a not nice place to live. Too many people know what's best for the world. Guess what folks it worked really well before Homo Sapiens came along so we don't know all the answers. If you think you do it's a safe bet you are wrong. Arrogance may be the worst human trait.
As a Scandinavian who just visit USA occationally I guess I can tell why I hesitate to move there... From the European horizon USA looks really cool. You have the greatest companies, the greatest sports champs (except in soccer), you are the center of entertainment, modern culture and research. You have... so very much.
However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.
So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.
Language barrier though, but hopefully one day I'll overcome that.
I left the US for good a few years ago for Vienna, and will never go back to the Imperial Homeland. Life's too great here.
It's been sixty years since we stopped invading foreign countries. Professional help needed.
Dutch is probably the easiest language for an English speaker to learn (well, Frisian and Afrikaans might have something to say about that, but still...).
:)
I'm currently making a life for myself in Japan and learning Japanese (and getting pretty good at it), so I have little sympathy for anyone who thinks Dutch is a problem.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
The fact is that the media moguls control so much of what people do, think and vote here, simply cos we have such a small market with little media diversity. Its so easy for the elite to push an agenda. Australian democracy is on the wane in a BIG way.
BTW I have to type "escaped" to submit this :)
1) Switzerland. It's clean, tidy, cosmopolitan, safe, has low taxes, great restaurants, beautiful countryside, a reasonabl educated population, a strong economy, 20% foreigners so fairly limited xenophobia in the parts that matter compared to many other European countries, isn't part of the EU, and is a few hours from Paris, Milan, Venice, Munich and other cool spots.
2) What's keeping me from moving there? Well, nothing--I already did. I've lived on 3 continents, and it's by far the nicest country I've been to (barring Canada, but brrrr.)
I moved for personal reasons (girlfriend), but I can see 100% where people frustrated with the way the US is moving are coming from. I have two remaining, ageing family members in the US whom I visit whenever possible, and every time I come here I notice what seems like a general decline in civility and reason. From the whiny nasal-voiced stewardesses on every US air carrier (and the $5 drinks charge on international flights--WTF?!?) to the screechy populist media, intrusive laws and lowbrow politics, it all gets a bit tiresome.
I often catch myself feeling guilty about having such an arrogant attitude, but to be honest I'd rather enjoy the good bits from afar whenever I can, for at least as long as the US is "staying the course."
Friends of mine have also moved to Ireland, Japan, Australia and various other countries--they all like wherever it is they moved. The most important part is doing your research and, if possible, spending some time there--I know plenty of expats who are miserable because they just didn't check their new home country out before going.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
Just for the weather and those fine ladies.
But seriously ... the way of thinking out here is so drastically different from the rest of the US that it might as well be it's own country.
OS X, Linux, Tivo, Amiga, my fascination with cult-like technologies would intrigue any psychiatrist.
... you could just go to the shop right next door. In three years in this country I've had, lets see, two and a half times where a denial of service actually influenced my course of action. Once I was clearly unwelcome in an establishment (still got to eat there, didn't go back though), once I got the same reaction but was let in because I was in a group of 25 Japanese people and they said they would take their $2000 drink bill elsewhere if I wasn't drinking with them, and once we knew ahead of time not to go to any of three popular clubs because only the fourth allowed foreigners on Saturdays.
;) ). The situation has improved markedly over the years -- its noticably better today than it was 5 years ago and I live in Japan's answer to rural Georgia. Plus with the shrinking birth rate and increasing immigration bringing folks closer together, I'm pretty confident that Japan is on the same trend of decreasing societal discrimination that America is.
Life is short and I have rather little desire to waste my limited amount of it complaining or acting against abberations that the market does a perfectly servicable job of sorting out. I'll pick my battles, like the one time a coworker got asked to translate a letter from a school to a Peruvian family saying "We're very sorry but, well, we don't serve your kind here. But don't worry, we're reasonable: here is a letter to get you out of trouble should your child be picked up for 'playing hookie' at the train station during the school day". (I should note that I'm a card-carrying Republican and am honestly ambivalent on whether a private business should be able to be racially discriminatory. If a hospital won't treat you because your skin color is wrong, thats more than worrisome but I've never heard of an issue with it. If a bar doesn't want to serve you drinks, well, it's the idiot's property, he can run it into the ground if he wants to. The market will sort it out. When the government starts doing it, thats when I think it is time to go all NAACP on the issue. I'm opposed to state schools not treating Koreans the same as everybody else, regardless of whether its Japanese or blacks/Hispanics who are benefitting from the discrimination. In Japan that makes me progressive, in America that makes me "a dittohead white-robe-wearing Nazi". Ahh, the fun little ironies of life.)
Japan, incidentally, doesn't hate you, any more than France hates you, any more than America hates you if you're Muslim, any more than Chicago hates you if you are a White Sox fan. There are, shockingly, many types of people here, the same as anywhere else. Many Japanese people have issues in dealing with foreigners, ranging from the trivial (they think all foreigners speak English or that all Americans own a gun) to the moderately serious. A small portion of Japanese people are serious bigots. And the majority of the population treats you like a person (Japan even has some America fanboys -- cowboy cosplay is some creepy stuff!
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Switzerland. And nothing is stopping me as Ive already transfered. I cant speak the language, but I dont need to (at the office) as the business language is English. As for citizenship... well Im lucky enough to have an EU passport and a US passport so thats trivial.
I mean like, how cool is a country that made their language and alphabet using all those math symbols!!!
Note. Not flamebait, so don't mod me as such...
Yes, well try living in one of those countries with "ridiculous tax rates". Free or cheaper heath care. Free or cheaper tertiary education. Lower crime rates through a restorative justice system, as opposed to just "Lock 'em up". Decent public transport. But you are a "patriotic American", which from experience equals "Get a brain morans. Go USA!". So you stick with that. The rest of us are enjoying you staying right where you are.
"If money is all you love, then that's what you'll receive" - Princess Leia
It will be sad if I have to leave the country and things don't turn away from the Hardliner-Right-Wing politics soon... cause right now there are so many people in jail, the police are trying to provoke me into committing crimes just to justify their own jobs. Hell, there's nobody left on the street anymore to commit crimes so why do we need cops anyway?
(especially since this is possibly the third time they have tried to injure me to see if I will fight back, just because I am the only one who isn't afraid to walk around town at night)
Clean(er), beautiful and hungry for IT professionals. The english that's used here is a mix of Brit, Ausie and American. Decent free health care. Decent economy (81st largest economic entity according to a recent something or other I saw on the web). A very open, tolerant society. Great place to raise kids. I moved here from the pacific northwest and haven't regretted a moment.
Disclaimer: not actually American, though I did live there from 1981 until 1988.
Not always the easiest place to live, but rewarding a lot of the time: Southern Africa. And I am not referring to "We'd like to be State 51 please, if only you'll bring back the 1980s" South Africa, I am referring to southern sub-saharan Africa.
Whether you're here on a volunteer basis or you have a 'proper job' (like myself), there is a definite need for clued-up tech people to share their knowledge, and to help pull this place out of its rut. No need to be a charity: I get a salary and everything...
And do your research: not all sub-saharan countries are corruption-plagued dictatorships. Well, no more than the US anyway ...
The key to success is having enough money to support yourself, not making enough money to live a life of luxury and frivolous spending.
I totally agree, which is why I'm happier in the US where lower taxes permit me to keep more money so that I don't have to make as much to be able to support myself without excess.
Actually really the key to success is doing something you love, the monetary component should be secondary but has to be enough so that you can keep doing the thing you love.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They have a shitload of money in their banks that can be yours for just $100.
Telstra alone is enough to keep me away. ;-)
I came to Barcelona because I met a Catalan woman who was studying in the US. That was in 2000. As with anywhere, there are pros and cons. I've also picked up some different perspectives on the US living outside of it. To sum up:
.79 euro cents.
living in Barcelona: pros
1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.
2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth
3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.
3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.
cons:
1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.
2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.
on living outside of the US:
one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.
you also see a lot of things in press that
Would I bail - sure. I'm only going to live another 40-50 years. Why not enjoy it someplace where I'm discovering new things daily, rather than stuck here where I'm pretty sure of my surroundings.
I am almost sure you are not really so "sure of your surroundings" as you think.
I have been overseas, and also driven or at least visited much of the US. There is as much mystery within a fifty mile radious of your house as there is whole continents away.
If you want to discover new things daily, all you need do is seek out one new poerson daily - for it is from other people that we truly learn things, here or abroad.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.
I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).
In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.
For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.
For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.
Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.
If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.
1) In Europe, wherever I find a suitable job. Or in Japan. Doesn't have to be someplace where I'm a citizen, just where I'm happy with what's going on, and where I have a chance of making a happy living, not necessarily rich, but at least enjoying my lifestyle.
2) Haven't finished my degree in school yet. Don't want to bother transferring to a foreign country.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that.
:)
Coelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt.
"Skies, not their souls, are changed for those who cross the sea". Horace, Epistulae I, 11 v.27.
Now you can say it in Latin
well I got 2 questions for you: why did you go to England? and what made you leave America?
Locksmith
Mexico really should be a wealthy country. They have a wealth of natural resources. They are a member of OPEC after all. They are next door to one of the wealthiest nations on Earth.
Mexico's problem is really corruption. Massive amounts of it. I mean you may complain about the US and well the UN, but Latin America is trying to Silver Medal in the Global Corruption Olympics (Africa is the out and out Gold Medal winner.) And this creates Mexico's problem. Why do anything if corruption is just going to take away your hard work? So, you are left with two choices (a) be lazy, or (b) leave.
You'll notice anyone near the US border that has anything resembling ambition has left for the US. Those left are just pathetically lazy. Now you get far enough away (Mexico City) and it becomes easier for the ambitious people to work within Mexico than to flee. But the areas close to the border are drained of ambitious people.
For the record, race doesn't matter. Culture does.
To figure out the good cultures from the bad, figure out where people are moving from and to. Americans aren't making rafts out of '57 Chevys to get to Cuba. Americans aren't crossing a dessert and selling themselves to human traffickers to get to Mexico.
But of course if you do this kind of analysis you are a racist.
We can't judge. All cultures are equal, except for the US which is bad. Developing a cure or at least way to make a manageable disease out of AIDS and stoning an woman to death for not wearing a veil; those are morally equivalent. We can't judge. Just part of the diversity that is the strength of our multicultural society.
we've got sun, sand, sea, and 2 new casinos coming up!! =)
Here in the Nigerian Peninsula, we have lots of money and business opportunities for you to harvest; yes, here money grows in the fields and you can come to harvest it.
Send us a check and we will grant you an exclusive citizenship.
Act now, citizenships are limited.
Send all yourZ checks and moneyZ to meez...
As a UK Dweller my whole life me and my girlfreind have made the decision to move to New Zealand in a few years time.
After a trip over there last summer to stay with family, we decided the quality of life over there is fantastic, the nation as a whole is more open minded and free thinking (doesnt have americas hangups on sex, or The UK's hangups on violence for example) House prices are pretty reasonable, and of course, cant forget the scenery (Remember LOTR)
So as soon as ive finished my uni degree, its off over there
With all the socialists here on Slashdot, I'm surprised China, North Korea and Cuba haven't been mentioned as potential destinations.
I don't know why I haven't seen more plugs for Japan. Language issues and tacit exclusionary tactics to ward off foreigners aside, Japan is a fantastic country. It values hard work and education, people are immensely considerate in public places, and the political sphere is boring (because they debate relevant political issues, and don't construct abstract notions of a culture war). The middle class may be declining, but there is already growing sentiment that the government should help do something about this.
Oh, and yeah, with an aging population Japan needs immigrants.
Seriously, stay out. New Zealand doesn't need Americans. You wouldn't fit in! Believe me, the best place for Americans is America. Nowhere else is as suitable for you so just stay put.
(for the humour impared *JOKE*!)
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
i dream of a place (probably in the Spratly Islands since its warm and unclaimed still) where nerds are free to rule, it'd be a place without badgering politics but it would also be an information haven without political agenda. everyone would have a fiber connection, live in teepee huts and have a quantum computer, that nations income will be solely based on IT as like isl of man is based on banking, think of it as Eureka of a free nation. but then again it doesn't have to be an island, we could hijack a cruise ship in international waters and keep it there creating our own 'sealand' for the masses, discuss the deteriation of free speach and write 'bush sucks' emails every day, and have a tradable currency based on experience for those out of anoland trips. remember, peace not war!
:( talk to me on anonet if interested, oh the part thats stopping me is the initial capital, i am open to suggestions or donations.
thats just my dream
What "personal freedom" have you lost since the 70's?
Honestly.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Australia is swell, just look out for stingrays
Jesus Saves
Nice try in scaring us away and keeping everything to yourself.
:) We're coming!
But we're not falling for it
Of course, given that I am part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (or, rather, if there really was one I would want to be a part given my political ideals) I'm not really one you are interested in hearing from. But, I will answer anyway. It may also tell you where you do not want to go (even though my list is similar to left wingers).
My first choice would be Canada. While there have been places there I detested there are also places I've felt more at home than most places in the US (I'm from East Tennessee). It was true in both geography and culture - plus there is some *great* hunting and fishing in the more remote areas that would be open to me. Canada is more like us than not (and is, thus, a really bad place to move is you decide you hate the US - you have a VERY similar split based on geography and the right wingers will one day take over - just as the left wingers will one day get power back in the US).
I suppose next would be Australia. Having never been there I can only go by what I have seen on TV and there is a lot to like. Nice people and enough technology to be happy with a lot of wilderness to have fun in.
I've known quite a few Italians and they were almost all people I liked. I like the food and what I know of the culture. Though I would most likely choose the more rural parts than the cities - though I would choose one of their large cities over ours.
Next would be much of the Netherlands. It's just looks like a nice place to live. Again, almost no experience to speak of - just what I have seen on TV.
After that - dunno. Germany, Britain, Spain, and other major western countries I either do not like or know next to nothing about (though, since I have not been in most of the countries I can not say definitively - I have to go by TV and that is a horrid source for information). South American and African countries fall into the same category - I see places I would love to be and places I would hate and they are in the same state so I can not make an accurate estimation. Eastern countries are still mostly not nice places to live.
The far east (like Japan) are so different culturally I do not know what to think or how I would fit in but I suspect many would be places I would like.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
I'm seeing a lot of Aus/NZ answers here, and boy am i ever tempted now!
the Big question is, how do you get in? How are immigration laws? Have you ran into trouble immigrating to NZ?
have you had any trouble INTEGRATING there? Is there an F1 button once you're there?
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
Finland Sucks!
Don't come to Finland
It's an ice desert here where polar bears have fled from because it was too cold. In fact its so cold that people write things like Linux just to get out of the country or invent mobile phones so that they can heat their brains with the radiation.
If you think your foreign policy sucks, well we don't have a foreign policy - we just agree with everybody. Our press and media is free in away - free to be utterly boring. And our country's economy and social well being are so strong that nobody really cares one way or the other anymore.
If only the Russians would attack us again so we could beat the hell out of somebody - sometimes its very therapeutic to have a fight...
PS: go to Sweden instead - they are very 'friendly' there...
www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
First of all I'm a dual US-EU citizen and lack much nationalism for any country.
Honestly, I don't see any country which is better than the US for an intelligent, sometimes driven individual in terms of opportunities. While there has been some erosion of personal freedoms and various systems are fucked (patent system, copyright, social security, etc.) I keep reading similar problems in other countries. England is going big brother on its people, France and Germany has a screwed over society in term of work, Eastern Europe is just a cluster fuck.
At worst I'll make my money and wait till the shit is flying at the fan and then leave, the joy of having dual citizenship.
Answer to question 2: question 1
i probably will move at some point. But it's a big thing, a big move, not just sort of pack some suitcases and off to the airport we go. you have to find the spot and the people first.
For the fact that if you pick your spot right you can have beaches and snowboarding right on your doorstep. However, the things that stop me from going are that it is a bit of a one-way trip if you do move out there (I live in England at the moment and moving back home again if I chose to do so would be very expensive), and also it's damn far away so I wouldn't be able to stay in touch with friends and family as easily as I do now. Also I've heard that IT jobs are few and far between. Can any residents there comment?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for an hour. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Now I live in Silicon Valley, and except for two months of rain during the winter, if I don't like the temperature I can drive a short distance and find whatever temperature I'd prefer, though it's never really too hot or too cold, and the mountains and ocean are nearby. You get used to that too, surprisingly bloody fast - it's annoying to be a wimp about it, but hey, it was cold enough today that I wore a long-sleeved shirt. (My real problem with going to cold places these days is that most of my really-cold-weather clothing has worn out, so I don't have a decent ski jacket any more, and there's no reason to buy one around here.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I'm an American who has been living in Europe for 12 years now. I love it here and would never go back. While it was hard to adjust the first year, but it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I've lived in Berlin and Prague and currently I live in Zurich, Switzerland. I can recommend any of these. If you can't speak a foreign language, then the Scandanavian countries are best, but it's also possible in most other countries, such Czech and Switzerland, as well. Ask around: There are American expats in every country you might be interested in.
Up until recently, I would have said that someone emigrating from the US for political reasons was being a bit silly -- administrations change. The only valid reason to emigrate was if you enjoy the culture and lifestyle of your selected country. If you're running away from something, rather than being pulled toward it, you're going for the wrong reason.
Everything's changed now. When the Military Commissions Act was signed, legally allowing Americans to be denied habeus corpus, the right to a trial, everything changed. I would actually recommend any U.S. citizen to emigrate immediately. This is no longer question of political ideas, left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative. It's not even a warning sign. It's the first lightning strike of a very bad storm. Those that get out of a storm's path early are always ok. It's only those that wanted to stay (or had to stay), for whatever reason, that get hurt. Just do it, and do it now.
I think it was Phil Collins that said that if Labour ever got into power he would go to live in the States.
Yoo Hoo! Go on Phil, push off!
Second Life, forget the first :)
My blog: http://www.redcode.nl
Back in the 70s, when I was having to think about options to the Vietnam War draft, the only parts of Canada I'd seen had been the Frozen North, i.e. Toronto and Montreal Sudbury and other places within 50 miles of the US border and east of the Rockies. It was ok, but not attractive - when I visited Vancouver as an adult, I realized there'd been a whole other range of options I'd have been happy to have known about :-) Fortunately my lottery number was safe, and it was the last year of the draft, so I never had to explore it.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Chicago has a VERY good public transport system. DC is okay.
I am an American living in Belgium. I have been ever since Bush took office in 2000.
:)
Free health care, education, broadband everywhere, soft drugs tolerancy, non massive biased media, a government that works, people who care about one another... Ohhh yeah I am missing the states for sure
try { println( SigString ); } catch( Exception e ) { println( 'Who cares?' ); }
If you happen to reside in the USA or in Canada then the natural choice (with regards to language and for some of you, climate) is Australia. Should you balk at such a response, then you've got to ask yourself what you want from a country. Do you want beach? *tick* Do you want beer? *tick* Do you want babes? *tick* If you happen to choose your "cushy and well paid I.T. job in the USA" in favour of any or all of the above, please consult your local physician. Enough said. :-)
I wasn't born in the US but my parents were so I gained citizenship at birth. We lived in several countries before I finally moved there, though I was too young to remember most of it. I remember living on a boat in Amsterdam (Steiger 13), and a little bit about Nepal and India. I don't remember New Zealand or Iceland, though I've been back to Iceland several time since and lived there for several months. Despite this, I grew up for the most part in the States just like anyone who was born there. My parents were different than most of the other upper middle class and I learned much about the outside world and had important lessons like not to hate homosexuals and people who were "different," unlike most of my high school classmates. It wasn't until my senior year of high school and first year of university that I woke up. My mind had matured and been opened sufficiently to introspection by then that when I travelled abroad, I knew I couldn't go back. I visited London and Paris (and many things in-between) on a trip organised through a teacher at my high school. That was the starting point of my awaking. The final point was a few months later when I visited Montréal, Québec with some friends from my university (I went to RPI, a couple of hours from the Canadian border). It was then that realised how different I am from most Americans and why I never felt like I fit in there. To make a long story short, I travelled to Canada and to Europe quite a bit during my university years. I finished my undergraduate degree and moved to Cambridge, MA to further my studies. After obtaining the level of education that I wanted to seek there, and after experiencing all the America I could stand, I finally moved back to The Netherlands where I sought entrance to medical school. So many things in my life have gotten better since that decision to leave, and nothing has gotten worse. I've since moved away from NL to better places but I regret nothing, I've not looked back, and I would do it again in an instant. In retrospect, I can see now that it helped to be the person I am and be from the family that I'm from to make easier what people would call a drastic change in life. However, I would like to emphasise that I did this all myself without financial assistance from my family. In all modesty, even if I didn't possess the qualities of determination and intelligence that I do, I would have still found a way to make it happen. One could argue, though, that experience and intelligence are what helped me to realise all of this in the first place. To answer your question, I've felt most at home in Scandinavia and I believe it is here that I will spend the rest of my life. I am currently training as a radiologist in Norway. If I do decide to go somewhere, then perhaps it will be somewhere in the UK. Scotland, Wales, and Ireland are fantastic. I come to slashdot everyday to read the news and it is partially do to this that I have absolutely no desire to go back to the States. It might be interesting for you to note that my brother, who was born in the States, has finished school and is living in New York City. He possesses the same desire to leave that I did and once I get sufficiently settled into my new career, I will move him over.
I guess I'd like to live on the Moon. In a free self-governed colony of course. But maybe I had read too much sci-fi in my teens.
Yeah yeah. Most American's who come here don't make it a single year. Really.
Between a really wet climate, confusing seasons (try Thanksgiving in the spring and Easter in the fall for a bit), horrendously under-insulated houses lacking central heating (at 50-55 degrees in the morning you can see your breath while eating breakfast), a customer service standard that just reeks of mother england, and, well, all the POM's (that's Brits for you yanks), it's a small wonder.
Other than that it's a great place. Oh, yeah, and there is the beetroot they insist in throwing on burgers. Kid you not - beetroot.
It's definitely a try-before-you-buy kind of thing, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they're trying to sell you something.
Japan lets practically no foreigners in. Amongst if not practically the most homogenous population in the world.
Norfolk Island looks like a good place to live.
Not too sure how to get permission to move there, though.
Actually, the amount of wealth relative to others is what determines your freedom. Poverty is generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average.
It's no good having low taxes and a moderate salary, if everyone else has low taxes and a moderate salary. That way, you just get lots of people working, and spending selfishly to compete with each other. In a more socialist system, by contrast, higher taxes and moderate salaries means that everyone is working for each other, contributing to a community. They still have the same average spending power, which means that no one is "poorer" for their lack of resources. But they're happy, and together, they've built something: a society, where people feel wanted and protected and cared for, so that they don't feel the need to sleep with guns in the drawer, or shoot their classmates.
To answer the question posed by the article, I found Germany to be lovely. The cost of living is low due to a depressed housing market, the people are educated and sincere, there are lots of beautiful women, the politics is reasoned, the public transportation system is excellent, the cuisine is formidable, and the night life was great. The taxes are high, but you have to expect that in countries which understand that social programs need to actually be funded in order to function. I also found Belgium and the Netherlands to be great countries for similar reasons.
My next assignment is taking me to Sweden. I'm looking forward to seeing the country about which Osama bin Laden said the following:
Choose to move to Hong Kong (part of China, not Japan) about 12 years ago and work here as an enginerr on local terms (not expat extravaganza). I can safely say I will be here the rest of my life.
There are many advantages to living in HK:
1. Beautiful City with mountains ringing the downtown
2. Best public transport in the world: subways are safe and run every 1 to 3 minutes, buses and trains get you everywhere else
3. Safety: I can go anywhere and anytime of night without fear for my life or mugging (I cannot think of a single american city with population > 1 million that can match this)
4. Taxes: Some of the lowest in the world with a maximum of 16%, no capital gains taxes
5. Food: Awesome selection of food at cheap prices (HK is regulary listed as one of the world's most expensive cities to live in, but that only applies if you try to live like the Trumps, as a regular person, I find I save as much money in 1 year in HK as I did in 5 years in USA)
6. Language: English is widely used both as the language of law and daily usage
7. Freedom: It is more free than Singapore, and even more free than USA (especially now)
8. Sports: Some of the best hiking in the world. Excellent cycling on weekdays. Wake-boarding, surfing, paragliding, mountain climbing, scuba diving, etc all within 30-45 minutes of your apartment.
And I could go on and on....
It says a lot that you think Europe is the same from scandinavia in the north to the mediteranian in south or eastern europe would be identical western parts of europe. Like i guess not all of USA is like California (the only place i have been). Europe has very different cultures, different work ethics, different social security. Its like comparing handgranates and horseshoes. Try travel a bit - there are lots of places in europe that you wouldnt find identical to Italy on a cultural or social level. mikkelfunck, Denmark
A few years ago, somebody posted the point system rules for immigrating to Canada. If you're young, educated, and speak French and English, it's really easy. If you're 50 and educated but not bringing large quantities of money, you'd better start learning French now, and maybe throw in a First Nations language for good measure. If you're 70 and not educated, you'd better have immigrant kids or a lot more money. (Sorry - French *was* my second language, but only a little bit of it, and Canadian Immigration doesn't view Really Bad German as useful. Basically I'd have to learn French from almost-scratch and my wife would have to learn it also, even though Chinese would be more useful in Vancouver.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Ireland or New Zealand.
Ireland, because the language is mostly English, the land is beautiful, the people are wonderful, and the laws are similar to pre-Bush America.
New Zealand, because the language is mostly English, the land is spectactular, the people are wonderful, and the laws are much more progressive than America (pre-Bush, post-Bush, or otherwise.)
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
Definitely, definitely don't base any decisions on a two week summer trip. Most Americans don't make it here longer than a year - it is VERY different from the US, despite the language being somewhat similar. The place is very wet, and most housing lacks insulation and central heating - you'll end up scraping mold from your walls in the winter while desperately trying to keep the house warm. Having breakfast while you can see your breath is no fun.
:)
The country is also FAR away from anywhere, really. A trip back to the states for the whole family will set you back a BUNDLE - as you might imagine carriers aren't exactly killing themselves to lower fares.
Make sure you see the place in the winter (August is GREAT!) to get the whole experience...
And if you do make it - well, good on ya, mate...
I'm sorry, but look around what your choices are:
1) Americanized countries (eg: England, Australia) : Same crap, different accent = Might as well live in the USA
2) Countries which hate America (eg: Middle East, France and most of Europe, Brazil, even Canada....). They dont want you, and will make your life miserable.
3) Third world countries (Africa, part of Asia,
4) Developed Asian countries (Japan, Taiwan, HK...) : You cant take the cultural change...
5) Sealand : Good luck getting a visa.
6) Tropical paradise: You dont have enough money to retire there...
Where is this place of which you speak?
-- My Weblog.
Between high school and college, I got a job and took 6 weeks to visit Italy and Britain.
Every conversation in hostels began pleasantly enough, but after hearing my "accent" for a few minutes*, my new acquaintence looked at me ascance, as if he had just noticed a growth on my neck and feared I was contageous. Not wanting to give offense, I'd be privileged with a couple more minutes of cautious, pointed banter before his voice would change again. It's an incredulous tone typically reserved for questions beginning with "Did you step in...": not exactly accusing, willing if not eager to accept an alternative explanation, but demanding that the detected offense be explained. I'd answer. Then the conversation would be over. If I was lucky, I wasn't excoriated for the death penalty, drunken fratboy idiots, and whatever else was wrong with the US. Usually it was Bush, though he had been in office all of four months and probably hadn't even finished unpacking.
I was 18, travelling with my girlfriend. We didn't drink, we've never been loud; we were invariably reserved and respectful. In Italy, we tried to pick up phrases so to avoid regression to pointing and grunting. I had never voted or had any opportunity to influence anything, but I was despised... and I was not even permitted the lattitude of ignorance: they wanted a 18 year old kid to know they hated him.
There were, of course, exceptions. Exceptional people whose kindness I still recall with warmth and gratitude. And even the meanest European has the unconditional affection of a Golden Retriever compared to the average resident of East Coast of the US, a region that, were it to break off the continent and sink into the ocean, I would morn with confetti and streamers.
Where was I? Oh, yes. There are no options, as far as I can tell, for Americans seeking a new home. Everyone actively hates us. Not the country or its policies: they hate us. It doesn't seem to matter that, whatever pisses them off about the United States, millions of us agree. I don't want to spend my life apologizing, faking an accent, or listening to sanctimonious, butchered Chomsky... so I remain.
And I love my country.**
*Oregonians' affect is almost indistinguishable from standard, American newscaster English
** Defined as North of San Jose, South of Canada, west of the Cascade Range
"Gasoline does not really matter because for some weird reason European cars are more efficient than American cars."
I believe it's because European countries are smaller and more "efficient" than huge America where one often needs to drive great distances just to buy groceries.
No weirdness involved.
"Therefore it is likely that there will come a time when restricted migration across national borders will be largely regarded as backward, restrictive, and even oppressive."
t m
Unlikely. There are limited resources in any area, as people arrive they are seen to consume those resources at the expense of the indigenous population. There is therefore always going to be resistance to people moving into an area.
e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6082194.s
The only time when it's possible that the borders will be relaxed is if all of the countries in the world are equally economically developed and peaceful and there's little economic reason for migration.
Deleted
But I left the North American East Coast and moved here to California, and came five times as far as some farmer from Mexicali who lives down the block. And one main reason I live in the town I live in is that the main street has restaurants from a dozen different cultures, either run by people who got off their butts and left the country they grew up in, or by children of people who did that, except for some of the Mexicans and Chinese who've been here a lot longer.
Some people came because this was the Land of Opportunity and the place they were living wasn't. Some people left their homes because a bunch of evil insane people wanted to kill them. Some were just bored, or had friends out here, or their families were hard to deal with, or they just considered some fairly large chunk of the world to be enough like home to move there, or there was a babe involved, or there was a school that sounded good, or they wanted to see the world and liked what they saw here.
For a while it looked like America had been taken over by Pod People. A lot of the country has at least started to wake up, but even after Bush, Cheney, and Rove get tossed out for incompetence (and term limits) it's going to take a long long time to fix America, get rid of some of the appalling laws and government-run lawlessness, and try to get rid of some of the surveillance infrastructure that's grown synergistically with the military-industrial complex. I doubt we'll get it all back, which sucks.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I've never encountered such a horror story personally, and engage in lots of "NSFW" joking when people are feeling up to it. There is a certain required sensitivity, of course; you don't make jokes when someone is feeling genuinely hurt or vulnerable. But other times, people are feeling rambunctious and there's lots of fair game. I've forgotten the exact circumstances when I suggested that a co-worker "needs a Playboy and a bathroom break", it was enjoyed by all at the time with no hard feelings.
There are lots of OTHER reasons I'd recommend avoiding the USA, of course.
LOL. Why is this flamebait? Not like most Yanks would know (Wish I could find a link to the video on YouTube with the Yanks identifying Australia as France...).
I've been studying abroad here for almost 2 months and I really want to move here. I have found that despite America being so "free", it's really not. Everything in Europe to me has seemed a lot more open and free. I don't know too much about the government yet, but so far I've liked what I've seen.
The only thing keeping me from moving here is college, i still have one more year. After that, however, it'll depend on what kind of work I can find.
Most of what you say is true, but none of it really addresses my post. I'm well aware that socialism provides better average economic circumstances in return for less economic freedom. That is really the whole point of socialism, because it stems from a philosophy that tips the valuation scale towards socioeconomic safety as opposed to socioeconomic freedom.
My point was that many Americans do not value wealth so much as they place much more value on socioeconomic freedom as opposed to socioeconomic safety than the ggp and apparently you do. It's true that there are higher rates of violent crimes in many areas on the US (not where I grew up, even though it was a very poor area where everyone owned guns (all hunters)), but it's also true that, if I so choose, I can exercise far greater control over my socioeconomic standing than someone from a more socialist country.
I'll trade you my Portuguese nationality for your American citizenship, that's it, a free pass to the whole european union and every sardine-lover's dream.
Three tings I hate about stars: -Wars -Treks -Gates
In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet.
Borders and visas are a 19th century invention. So, it all cases it comes down to the ritch of each region of this planet playing divide and conquer, so they can restrict movement of trade (and hence people) from anyone without enough capital to be characterised as ritch him/herself.
----
Canada is shut because it takes 3-5 years to get a skilled worker residence visa. Go somewhere else.
K.
Perhaps you have forgotten that your ancestors also were people who left there country, trying to make their luck elsewhere.
confusing seasons (try Thanksgiving in the spring and Easter in the fall for a bit),
It's called the Southern Hemisphere pillock-features, of course it's going to be different.
You sound like one of the ignorant Americans that we despise, please fuck-off home because we don't want you here.
And it'll take you a while to get to know locals and local culture well enough to be accepted, but that's sort of the same everywhere I suppose. Meanwhile, it's absolutely gorgeous, lots to do, high mountains and wide beaches and jungles and decent coffee, and it's relatively friendly to American expats.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Hah, kinda amusing that basically the -only- answer to the original question seems to be the 'the Netherlands' post and its replies.
But as a native dutchman, I'm interested in someone suggesting something else.. South Africa, Japan, Canada, Russia (moscow?) seem interesting places to be, but how are they if you plan to live there?
Hi there! I am an Italian who never worked in Italy and moved out as soon as I finished education. Almost thirty and not a day unemployed yet :-)
Though you will hear Giovanni Birramedia ("Joe Sixpack") and populist politicians complain about high taxes, those are quite standard rates in Europe. Except for the 50% which is simply untrue (though it is a popular stereotype, you might have heard it said). Gas is currently at about 1.2 euros/litre. Anyway, I will take high taxes over social inequality any day: a bit because of I have a sense of justice, a bit because I do not like getting mugged.
Well, it's no news there is a high and endemic level of corruption in Italian politics. Again, every country has the politicians it deserves, and the current Zeitgeist is such that a former minister can be sentenced to six years in jail for heavy corruption charges (Cesare Previti was sentenced for having basically bought the whole courthouse in Rome) and half the population will still believe that it is a persecution of communist judges. Tolerance for corruption is so high that we have boss and vice-boss of the military secret service under investigation for kidnapping and torture, and no one seems to care. I mean, no one has actually asked them to resign.
That surprises me. Either you got a wrong impression, or the situation in the US must be similar to the jus primæ noctis. The lower layers of society (illegal aliens and such) are regularly mistreated at the level of downright slavery. I suppose it depends a lot on the branch you work in.
That has something to do with catholicism—you have to achieve sanctity through pain. That's not really what the doc is thinking, but just because it is unusual to give painkillers doctors are not used to that. This has been subject of debate in recent years, so maybe it has improved.
Italy sucks for that. If you want to be successful in Italy you must play much more politics at work and in the larger sense than in other countries, and you must be "blackmailable": the system rejects noncorrupted, as the system is built on a gigantic Mexican standoff where everybody must be able to trash anybody else in a sort of mutual-assured-destruction way. That's what comes out of endemic corruption. Of course there are bunches of honest people, but they are far away from power and kept there.
Now, I live in Norway. The main disadvantage I have found is that locals always talk their dialect rather than standard Norwegian, which is kind of irritating. Of course, you get that if this is the main problem I could find, there aren't really that many. The Norwegian tax level is sometimes indicated as the highest in the world, but I never paid more than 25% of direct tax (income tax, social security, fortune tax and so on). VAT is high (25%) and so are food prices because of protectionism (for some reason Norwegian think of themselves as a people historically of farmers, instead of pirates (Vikings) in the past and oil exporters (North Sea) now. Wages are fairly high (especially for Italian standards: a PhD student turns in over 2,300 euros/month. That's
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
We have less to do with the rest of the US than with Europe and Asia. All the worlds cusines cheap and delivered. Don't need a car so take that off your balance sheet. My part of town is covered with hot European expatriate chicks and all the cool kids from fly over country. Plus we still get to use the Constitution and Bill of Rights! (sort of-insert Bush joke) 24 hour subways so take that, London. Cheapish beer and taxis. More live music than is doable. Tall buildings and not too many crackhead bums.
Actually Rome probably has better food but that's just me. And Beijing is cool but there are always visa problems.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
Everywhere has pluses and minuses.
- Denmark: strong community feeling, cold and high taxes
- Italy: amazing beauty, lots of bureaucracy
- France: great food, French
- Belgium: good location for travel (sorry), everything else
- Netherlands: modern, difficult language and high taxes
- England: sophisticated humor and best TV in world, weather (food is a lot better now)
A lot of people emphasized freedom. That's a good thing, but also important are:- truthfulness in goverment (Blair tries to lie, but there are a lot of people pointing out the truth, unlike in US)
- equality of opportunity
- compassion (that means paying more tax so someone does not die because they can't afford basic medical care like in US)
- culture, having art and literature valued (US dumbing down is creeping in however)
You pays your money and takes your chances... if I were one and I wanted to leave USA I would probably go for one of the North European countrys, Netherlands, Denmark, Sueden, etc... What would stop me? The same reason that keeps me stranded where I am... The fact that I've a job and wouldn't leave it for incertainity just cause I feel like it, the fact that those countrys speak strange languages, and beeing in a zone where the weather is warm I wouldn't easely leva for those very cold countrys, but that's a problem that part of the north americans don't have!
Of course the current illegal immigration problem is unlike anything this country has faced before, but a big historian like you would know that, right?
Our ancestors came here legally and created a melting pot.
Current illegal immigrants come here and live in self imposed enclaves and many have a notion of someday annexing the Southwest back to Mexico.
To summarize: you are a fuckhead.
Moved here a year ago after 10 years in Minnesota. Definitely a better place. Unless you like things like customer service, or a choice of more than one of each type of product.
Or disposable income.
But apart from that it's bloody fantastic.
--
E_NOSIG
The (badly phrased) question: "What makes america the best government in the world?"
Asking "what prevents you from leaving" is obvious beyond comprehension. Let's start with Emigration/Immigration laws. Go from there to customs, and probable equipment incompatibility. And this is even before you start talking about money, which pretty much everybody I have ever met seems to have in such dreadfully short supply. Ok, so I am a political activist working at Burger King (neither is true, but hypothetically speaking)... I have no money, I have no rights, and you want to know what's stopping me from leaving?
Duh?
Oh, sure. I could go to college, and get a high salary job (Hah! Getting through college does not imply actually LANDING that job!), but then I'm that much closer to the elite "wealthy" class (which also always seems strapped for cash). Once I make the big bucks, I have more freedom to do what I want. But if I still want to leave, if I play my cards well, I could be out of this country within the next 15 years!
So now it's a cost/benefit analysis. Which is better? 40 years working here, or 15 years of truly intensive effort to trade one set of problems for another?
My point is, You can do the dance. But that does not mean that you win he trophy. Not everybody can grow up and become the President. Similarly, not everybody who wants to leave is capable. Nor are all of those capable actually going to make the effort. And making the effort does not imply success.
What's stopping me? What isn't stopping me? I'm not prepared to invest 15 years of my life training myself to try to leave. Losing 15 years is just about half as much longer as i expect to live, so you want to know what's stopping me? In one word, perhaps? Beauracracy.
Ultimately, I suppose my point is that the people who actually can leave generally do not. Being able to leave requires not only knowledge, but also money, time, and to some extent, power. The less you have of each, the more that stands in your way of leaving.
On the other hand, I've *been* hit by lightning, and was almost hit by it another time; comes with hanging around on tall mountains. Some commentator in September 2001 was asked what Americans could do to protect themselves, and replied "Quit smoking and wear your seatbelt".
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
1. Fantastic economy 2. Good prospects for 20-30 years of high economic growth 3. Easy to become a citizen if you are European/American 4. The only English speaking country in the Euro (a currency). 5. Good academic research funding http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225720.400 -the-lure-of-the-celtic-tiger.html
6. Investing large amounts of money (finally) in public train systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Metro
7. Free travel area with the UK.
8. Right beside the UK, so we get all of the British TV stations.
9. Militarily neutral - constitutionally enshrined, virtually impossible to go to war.
10. Full employment, leading to massive migration to Ireland
http://www.heritage.org/research/worldwidefreedom/ bg1945.cfm
Ride the tiger baby !
In Soviet Canuckistan the Beavers eat *you*! Seriously, watchout for the little bastards. They'll smack you with their tails until you fall over and then gnaw off your limbs. You do have to be pretty drunk for them to catch you, so the real danger is when you're new to the country and only just getting used to Canadian beer, which is about 3 times stronger than kentucky bourbon. (Don't even touch Canadian whiskey. Canuckistani airlines sometimes uses the stuff as aviation fuel even though it's murder on the fuel lines.)
You'll also have to get used to keeping a continual guard up against flying hockey pucks. This skill comes naturally to native Canuckistani's who grow up dodging pucks from an early age, but newcomers to the country often suffer a few concusions before they pick up the knack of knowing when 170 grams of vulcanized rubber is rocketing towards the back of their heads at upwards of 150kph. You should also realize that global warming may soon cause a massive housing shortage in Soviet Canuckistan as temperatures rise too high for igloos to survive the summer. Truly, the country is going to become a madhouse when people's 3000sq foot 4 level split igloos with attached garages melt into ponds.
If you do still decide to emmigrate to Canada, be sure to talk to Phil from Vancouver. He can get you set up with your government issue starter snow-shovel and official toque with genuine saskatchewan sealskin bindings and special patriotic pom-pom. (very important) Be sure the pom-pom is firmly attached. If you lose it, rest assured that a mountie will spot it. (Don't even try to run. They always get their man.) Losing your pom-pom will get you exiled to newfieland, which is a fate many consdier worse than death by poutine!
Canada sounds like a nice place, though.
:) In Montreal you can get by with just English, but further north or east and you pretty much have to speak some French. Much nicer language anyway :)
:)
Yeah, it's lovely in July and August but forget about it the rest of the year, brutally cold. I spent some weeks in Quebec City back and forth a few times, and it was freezing in June, amazing. It's the most beautiful city I have ever been to though, seriously, Napoleon's dream. I'd live there in a heartbeat if the weather were northern california-ish. I guess it helps that I speak French
My employer also thought it a nice joke to send me to New Brunswick for a few days in January once too, and I used to think Chicago was cold in the winter. Yikes! Where's that global warming I've been hearing so much about?
But seriously, free health care sounds great, until you actually need something. Need a knee surgery? Waiting list for five years. OR, if you have the cash, cross the border and have it done. The only reason Canada's system even half works is because the U.S. is next door to fulfill needs of that sort. I think I'll stay here for now. It sucks, but it sucks less than everywhere else.
Another friend of mine moved there to go to school after the Computer Boom busted, and liked it, though he's met a girl over here and moved back.
I think the vodka thing must be a combination of genetics and extensive practice, combined with living in Russia.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
1) Almost anyplace in Europe. I've spent roughly half my life in the US, the other half in Europe; from my perspective there are alot of places that are alternatives, it all depends on what you're accustomed to.
Misconceptions about what its like to live here or there abound. Most western EU countries offer an average standard of living superior to that in the US ( a fact most US-ians aren't aware of ), likewise most places in the US aren't staging areas for running gun battles. That being said, I'd prefer to live in a place with minimum government interference into personal affairs & a maximum of personal freedom including a plurality based political system. This pretty much leaves the US out.
- The scandinavian countries are great, if you don't mind the high taxes & the all-pervasive social support systems. You'll likely never get rich there, but you can live happily to a financially secure hale old age in ergonomic comfort & beautifull surroundings.
- Germany is a bit too much like the US. I like Baden Wurtemberg / Bavaria for the high standard of living & income. A bit too authoritarian & germs are totaly anal when it comes to formalities.
- Italy - specifically north italy, more specifically Lombardy,Piemonte, Veneto are very cool. Income sucks - roughly 1/3 - 1/2 of what a germ or a Brit makes for the same effort, but you can't beat the people, the vistas & the atmosphere. I would take a paycut to work there ( and have ).
- Greece is great if you cab find a decent job, I have known people who gave up careers to work as tour guides & hoteliers in Greece, especially the south.
- Netherlands. Great place to work, great place to visit, the wether sucks, but the people & places make up for it ( mostly). A very multi-culti place, recently tightening social permeability sphincters, mostly because of coloured muslims doing naughty things.
- Chech republic - Great place to live ( inexpensive, relatively high standard of living), dynamic economy, friendly people & the best pilsners in the world
- Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia - Steady economic growth, little govenmental control, a bit xenophobic & progressively turning toward authoritarianism, these countries host a great many western expats making oodles of money on local markets and the accession to the EU
- Belgium. Beer, chocolate, trade acumen & high cost of living. Language sounds like a throat infection. The best beers in the world, unqualified.
2) Nothing is keeping me, I don't live in the US
1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?
1) Australia!
2) Nothing. I went - and never regretted it!
I must admit, however, that it was a whole lot nicer place before John Howard came to power, took away everyone's rights and then stuck his nose up dubya's backside...
Wet? Well, at the moment, Yeah. Thanks La Niña...:-(
Under-insulated houses? So fix it. Get some Pink Bats or that spray in stuff.
Customer service? Nothin wrong with it...
Beetroot...And don't forget the egg.
I moved to NZ from Washington State almost 20 years ago. I talk with family in the US, and they're always stressing out about one thing or another. Me? I'm outside havin a barbecue...:-)
I call bullshit. Poverty is not "generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average." Poverty is the inability to sustain a way of life.
What my neighbor makes has no bearing on how free I am. We use the same tax schedule but there are boatloads of folks in the U.S. who make more than me but who manage it poorly. Thus, they pay more to the common weal, may have more in the bank, but are constrained about what they can do in terms of family trips/home improvements.
You sound like a socialist in terms of everyone being on a level playing field and no one being '"poorer" for their lack of resources. But they're happy...' Christ, you sound like a Communist.
People are happy when they have political and economic self determination - regardless of how much they earn or who their President is.
I hated Clinton and I'm not enamored of Bush, but I'm not going anywhere because I get a say. My ancestors did not have that luxury.
True story: My great-grandfather went back to Italy that he left when he was 16. He was in his 80's. He was supposed to be their two weeks. They were so excited to show him their new toilet. First one the family ever had. He left after two days. All his kids, including my grandmom, glamorized Italy (and I know it's got some great stuff and having studied Latin, I know the deep heritage) but not everyone has it great and no place is all it's cracked up to be.
Finally, as for keeping guns in drawers - the primary reason for this right in the US is to kill government types who overstep their bounds. It's less about neighbors and hunting and more about preventing idiocy in the ruling class. The risk, of course, is that unsupervised children are going to harm themselves or others which is on the adults who facilitated their gun acquisition.
$30 Off All Plans: Use code TRIPLESAWBUCK
I'm 25. My income tax rate is 40% (top bracket) (bear in mind that this comes into place at the relatively low threshold of roughly £34,000). On top of that, everyone pays NHS tax at around 11%. So right away, 51% of my pay cheque is obliterated by tax.
Add to that 17.5% VAT (sales tax), petrol at £0.90/L ($6/US gal.), insane council (property) tax.
I get private medical insurance from my company. If I actually use that, instead of it being a tax break because I did not burden the NHS, I would be taxed on THAT TOO as a "benefit in kind." I cannot opt out of paying NHS taxes; if I could, I would. I broke my arm recently and was forced to wait in the ER for SEVEN HOURS before I was seen.
I am tired of working my fucking arse off only to get totally gouged by the government day in and day out.
Time to find myself a Craigslist wife. Any takers?
I read Slashdot for years, but this article actually made me create an account. Our story is we wanted to leave as early as January. February: We decided to "go for it." March: I started browsing for IT recruiters in Europe. April: Telephone interviews May: Face-to-face interview in Prague, Czech Republic; Got job. June: Packed, sold home, shipped goods, found apartment July 3, 2006: On site and been happy ever since Sure, America's great, and I'm sure we'll come back, ...at least to visit.
I LOL'd...
Fixing up previous post
0 -the-lure-of-the-celtic-tiger.html [newscientist.com]/ bg1945.cfm [heritage.org]
a )
Move to Ireland for the following reasons
1. Fantastic economy
2. Good prospects for 20-30 years of high economic growth
3. Easy to become a citizen if you are European/American
4. The only English speaking country in the Euro (a currency).
5. Good academic research funding http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225720.40
6. Investing large amounts of money (finally) in public train systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luas [wikipedia.org] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Metro [wikipedia.org]
7. Free travel area with the UK.
8. Right beside the UK, so we get all of the British TV stations.
9. Militarily neutral - constitutionally enshrined, virtually impossible to go to war.
10. Full employment, leading to massive migration to Ireland http://www.heritage.org/research/worldwidefreedom
You could go to London and in fact I'd be quite tempted to do that myself but... I suppose being Irish... I'm required to say move here anyway.
Until Dublin finishes building it's tram system though... the London tube is just too excellent to reasonably discount London as an amazing place to live.
Really though Dublin or London are ideal places to move to especially if you don't speak French/German/Italian/Spanish/(Norsk|Dansk|Svensk
Ride the tiger baby !
We go back to:
1. The Constitution
2. The Bill of Rights
3. The Geneva Convention
4. Habeus Corpus (sp?)
And I'll stay right here, thank you very much.
The food is awful in the english speaking part of europe. Have you had Black Pudding? Seriously, I thought MCDONALD's was bad.
rhY
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Actually it wasn't my first choice.... my wife couldn't get a visa to the U.S. (we weren't married when I decided to leave; we had met in India and summered together various places in India and Africa) and it seemed easier for me to get a job just about anywhere than for her to get a U.S. visa. Ethiopia isn't exactly high-tech or democratic, but people with high skills are in demand and for the salary of a Starbucks cashier you can live quite handsomely here. Anyway, now I'm in Addis and enjoying the sun.
Most of the rest of my friends from New York have left for Asia -- Hong Kong, Bangkok, Dhaka -- and I have to agree it's a more happening part of the world. But we're all trying to sample different places and we'll probably report back to each other about how things go. And maybe we'll all end up in the same place.
As I said above, I didn't leave the U.S. because I had given up on the political system, though the reason I left does very much have to do with politics. I would like to come back and work for change, and I expect the next decade of my life will be spent shuttling in and out of the U.S. But the political climate does make the U.S. less alluring, and the salaries that highly-skilled workers can get abroad seem pretty alluring right now. What's one to do?
Gosh I got so many comments to answer to on this thread!!!
I will only give you my point of view of course. There are several problems with Mexicans. I can summarise it like "The Mexican is its own Enemy" which is the name of a really nice book (in Spanish) which shows different stories that would *only* happen in Mexico.
Mexico would be a far better place if more stayed and tried to make it a better place. By leaving, they only ensure that their corrupt government stays in power, this is why they encourage it so much (not to mention remittances).
The problem in Mexico is this as follows: half of the population is poor, from this half, the 20% is in misery. The other half of course is not rich, you have a *really big* "medium class" which I think (from the deepest of my ass of course) it is something like 40%. The medium class are the families in which the father works from monday to friday (sometimes saturday) from 7 to 4 (sometimes 7) to get food for the 3 children in the house. Of course, the income of these people is among $1,000 monthly and that is a GREAT salary.
Now, what does this have to do with what you said?, well, usually people in Mexico are VERY BUSY working to feed their family to make something about corruption.
The other problem is corruption itself, I had a discussion with another Mexican friend who also came to do his PhD (he know a lot about current Mexican situation, his PhD is in "sustained development" and is expert in Chiapas issues Chiapas is a state where the poorest people lives, where the Comandante Marcos is from and a state with HUGE natural resources).
So, the main problem is that Mexicans like corruption. Really, we are always whining about corrupt government and corrupt police and whatever, BUT when the policeman stops you because of speeding or whatever, it is the PEOPLE the ones that should enforce the police to give them the ticket and leave. Of course they preffer the "dame pal café" exit and give US$5 to the policemen.
Now, about the ones that get out of there. Believe me, as me, there are other (at least) 4 or 5 hundred Mexicans who are doing some postgraduate course funded by the Mexican Science Council. A lot of us have the desire to return to Mexico and do something for our country. But the reality is that I, as a "Computer Scientist" can not do too much besides doing my work RIGHT. Then there are politicians (I met a guy who is doing his PhD in some social thing, he is son of one of the helpers of Luis Donaldo Colosio, a president candidate who was murdered some years sago in Mexico), now he is one that can make a difference *in politics*.
We love our country, lot of us. I dont know if you are aware but, there is an exception which is the people in the border that go to USA and try to "wash out" their Mexican status, the funny thing is that they are neither accepted by the USA people (what we call gringos) and they become "hated" by Mexicans. This is the people that lives in the border (usually in the USA side). Of course NOT all of them are like that, just a fraction.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know). It seems to me that, if people have less taxes to pay, then people who don't value their social security or health cover will work for less, because they don't factor those things into their living expenses. As such, the average person is probably paid an effectively lower wage. Almost by definition, add-ons like health care would seem to be expensive "extras" to most workers. So... with an average (mode, not mean) salary, how much can you HONESTLY change your lifestyle? Are you saying that people can lift themselves up, into better neighbourhoods and lifestyles, just by giving up their healthcare for a while? I doubt it. Even if they could, I'm not sure that's a fair way to judge, when some people may have illnesses that require healthcare, and those individuals should not be dismissed, but rather treated as equals in every way.
There wasn't anything to stop me. I just moved here one year ago.
The economy is growing rapidly, which presents all kinds of opportunities. (In addition, you -as the American- are uniquely positioned to start-up a trustworthy outsourcing firm, if that sort of thing appeals to you.) The people you meet are extraordinarily friendly. Social change is everywhere, which makes for exiting times. Political changes give opportunities to influence the future, for those who are so inclined. It's just now joining the EU.
And, yes, Slashdot, most of the Romanian women tend to be far sexier, less materialistic, and less self-centered. Even a pasty geek like yourself could manage to find a gorgeous, educated partner.
If the RIAA or MPAA are after you, try Sweden. They like pirates there.
"Women are just like ninjas; They lie even when it is more convenient to tell the truth." ~ Unknown
1) New Zealand
2) Nothing already here, it did take some cash though.
--end of line--
If you do leave, vote: http://www.votefromabroad.org/
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
We actually didn't let anything stop us.
Put in applications in the first week of November 2004; it took a while but we finally got cleared.
I've been here about 6 months now; finishing up contract projects for a San Francisco area software company.
What do I miss? Big bowls of salad, and avocado sandwiches. Mmmm. Salad.
What do I appreciate? The consumer DVD players are apparently region free BY LAW. Or so I was told/sold by the floor sales dude. Sadly the DVD-ROM drive I got locally seems to have the same-ole region crap. This may seem like a silly thing but given the variety of regions and formats that show up here it's pretty important.
Waiting for the SUMMERTIME now to see what that's like.
Why NZ?
a) they speak english here
b) opposite summers - working in video games means sacrificing _every_ july and august to the crunch [working backwards from Christmas, that's just how it works out]
c) girlfriend wanted to see hobbits
d) economic bet hedging against the US$
e) cheaper than the bay area without being nebraska
Anyway so far so good. Ask me/. again in a year and we'll see.
Hey Gringos don't worry, you don't need to move anywhere. We can bring Peru to your state in a bliz. Just make a free visa for Peruvians who want to live in your state for a week, and You will have a New Country delivered directly. If you want Machu Pichu we the new inmigrants would construct one for you, or Nazca Lines, no hay problema, we will need some desert terrain for that.
and finally
"Visite el Peru primero, antes que el Peru lo visite a usted."
gracias amigos. Wating for your response.
Well I currently live in Germany, I have lived on 4 different continents so I can say with some experience that this magical utopia of which I hear doesn't exist. Possibly due to a lack of actually ever having traveled or learned another language, when I was last in America I used to hear a lot of liberals talking about leaving the country as though the rest of the world was a bastian of free thought, moderation and reason. Guess what, you'll make some hefty compramises anywhere you live. Germany for example has some of the worst customer service and burocracy on earth. On the other hand it has good health care and the people are ver straight forward (yes I came here for that world famous German charm). My advise to everyone would be take some time and see the world, every country has at least a few good ideas.
Don't mess with the bunny, outsideworld.org
Sweden: Beautiful nature and politicians that think ahead. Althuig the klimaat sucks. Belgium: perfect mix between Calvinistic mentality and Bourgondic lifestyle. Probably my prefered country. Especially Flanders which is among the richest regions in the world.
If you can live with the high taxes and the (mostly) bad weather, there is negative unemployment here right now and a serious economic boom. If you're good at something (almost any profession, and certainly all aspects of engineering and medicine) you can have a job in no time. In fact, if you're into power engineering and/or advanced process regulation my company would consider hiring you for our R&D department (where I work, BTW).
;-)
Most danes are good english speakers and only a few radicals are seriously anti-american. If you avoid glorifying your home country too badly and can live with an almost entirely non-religious society, you could have a really good time here. Immigration laws are sort of tough these days, but it's not impossible at all.
If you're a gun nut, then forget about going - weapons permits are very hard to obtain and, for all practical purposes, limited to highly regulated hunting weapons that require a hunting license.
On the good side, we've got some of the best-looking women in the world, IMNSHO
Black holes are where God divided by zero
"The key to success is having enough money to support yourself, not making enough money to live a life of luxury and frivolous spending."
Wow. This is like a dictionary definition of "rationalization". Seriously.
It's not owning expensive things that's a big deal, it's the ability to start from nothing in the U.S. and end up in that situation. I'm the son of a coal miner. We lived in a 2 room house with just a fire in the kitchen (no joke). We have kids who are about to graduate from high school. And today my wife and I are directors in large organization and we make a lot of money. We have a big house with pool and land, expensive cars, we have everything in life, we use our spare time to contribute to the community, working with children especially, and we find time to go to improve our bodies and minds.
Money may not bring fulfillment, but it sure gives us the ability to not worry about the mundane things in life.
I'd rather this system than any other, because it rewards people who work hard, and provides a minimal safety net to those who don't. It doesn't promise equality of result, it does provide equality of opportunity.
Good luck to you in your life.
From the top: Norway, Iceland, Australia, Luxembourg, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Ireland, Belgium. (taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Ind ex)
Im not from the US myself but one thing I could imagine is stopping people from moving from there is the fact that anywhere you go these days, you get people confronting you about your country's disastrous foreign policy. But then again, you can always pretend to be Canadian.
OK Folks, I see a lot of comments about this, and I'd like to make a few points based on my own experience. I grew up in the UK, where taxes are relatively low. I was unemployed for a few months after finishing a PhD in physics. Unemployment sucks, but it especially sucks when you have to grease up to some retard and fill out a hundred forms just so they give you enough money to buy half a loaf of bread. It took me a few months to find work, and now I am working as a physicist in Berlin. Here, taxes are pretty much 50% all in, and if you end up unemployed here then you find that you get something like 60% of your last salary for a while. Indeed - as one person put it - this seems to result in 20yo punks sitting in the park and smoking weed. I tend to notice the naked women sunbathing more than the punks, but never mind ;-)
However, I'd take that social-security and high-tax life any day over the s**t consumer-driven life I had in the UK. I have not seen one violent crime in Berlin in the last 2 years I've been here. When I lived in Leeds, during one year gangs tried to steal my bicycle on THREE separate occasions WHILST I WAS RIDING HOME ON IT; a dealer was gunned down at the bottom of my ex-girlfriends street whilst he was buying a pizza; and the local cinema was robbed at gun point four times. I read a statistic the other day that claimed you are 6 times more likely to be robbed in London than in New York.
In summary: high taxes are OK and Britain sucks donkey balls.
This message was scanned by European governments and contains no terrorism.
Yeah, and that's wrong. That is a totally corrupted perception of freedom.
If you ride a bike to work, live in a small house, feed your family and are happy, and I drive one of my BMWs to work, live in a big house, feed my family and am happy, does that make you less free that me?
Only if you tie your happiness to materialism. Ironically, leftists seem to claim that capitalists are only concerned about money, while when it comes to defining relative freedom, the only valid measure is monetary wealth.
What if you have a wife that loves you, and I don't? Doesn't that make us un-equal, and you more free than me? What if I'm a idiot with no friends, and you are a great guy with bunches?
Happyness comes form so many other factors than money, and I said that, me, the (economic-)freedom loving, high-tax hating capitalist.
I live in Denmark, with one of the most ridiculously high taxation rates in the world, so I'm not just talking from theory, this is everyday life for me.
In my family there is a guy, an academic, whom today is unhappy with his work, because he over the years declined career advances because the extra responsibilities would in no way be compensated by the exra money earned in 60+% top tax bracket. No, he is not exceedingly rich for being in the top taxbracket, about halft of everybody with a fulltime job is in it.
Cue violins. This is bullshit. That is how Marx imagined it on paper, but it never happened in real life. A recent study in Denmark showed that the average citizen is not working for the common good, but has become a spoiled welfare junkie, always expecting more and better from the government, a vicious circle..
I don't have a problem paying taxes (I'm not an anarchist), but I do have a problem with the government spending my taxes to keep 1/5 of the workforce out of the labormarket.
Actually, the amount of wealth relative to others is what determines your freedom. Poverty is generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average.
The market is not the only solution to scarcity, or to put it differently: the wealth, power, and freedom dimensions are different things, and societies differ in what aspects of power and freedom are tradable on the market. To give a simple example: a society consisting of a million subsistence farmers that eat their own produce and never exchange anything as a matter of principle, strictly speaking has a GDP of $0 but a lot of freedom. If the government prohibits eating your own crops because it wants to have a tax base, the GDP suddenly grows to whatever the world market value of the produced crops is, but freedom decreases. They not only have to start paying taxes, but they also lost their immunity to competitors in the world market. An embellishment: in this society land may be considered untradable (for instance because everyone holds it in fief from the king), and the people with the biggest parcel of land will always have the biggest parcel of land, and therefore usually the biggest crop.
A lot of countries in the world are actually "wealthier" relative to the US than their GDP suggests, in the sense that they could boost their GDP at the expense of existing methods of distribution of power and freedom. The existing methods are not necessarily more equitable, but they usually are more static and give some relief from the rat race. I don't think this really has much to do with being "more socialist".
[i]Then you realize that the social services suck. Want a painkiller for your broken leg? Tough. Want an annual dental checkup? Tough. Want a cop to investigate repeated break-ins? Tough.[/i]
What are you talking about? Italy's health care system is rated second in the world (after France) by the WHO. If you break a leg, you'll get a full treatment paid by the national health service, not just "painkillers". Annual dental checkup? I do one every six months, free of charge, at a private dentist studio (no, there is no insurance or anything, they offer it for free).
I've never had a break-in, so I can't comment on that, but I'll point out that, for historical reasons, we have two parallel nationwide police forces in Italy: if you're disappointed with the State Police, try asking the Carabinieri, and vice versa.
I agree that the taxes are too high, however.
Gravy for your fries is actually pretty easy, just visit the South (/Southeast). Of course it might be cream gravy instead of brown, but it still tastes good in that "oh god oh god my heart!" sort of way. ;) [Specifically, go to any whataburger and order combo meals #6 or #8 iirc.]
I take it you mean this?
The Italians have their own culture that works for them and I respect that but Italy is not exactly the country that sets the standard for the rest of Europe. Another thing to consider is that most European countries do not have an income tax percentage of 50%, it's usually between 30-45%, at least in those European countries with a sane government but there are exceptions such as Sweden where they tend to take taxing to extremes. The sales tax varies according to the type of product you are buying, it is usually higher for luxury goods and it is not always 20% plus. I have lived in 5 European countries and nowhere was a working day of 6 hours the national norm. Myself I usually work 9 and occasionally 10 hours per day and sometimes on weekends as well. As for there being no concept of sexual harassment that is also not true, most European countries have legislation for this but once again Italy is not the best country to take as an example if you are the type of person who takes the slightest hint of sexual harassment as deadly seriously as I know many Americans do. As for there being fewer cops per crime committed than is needed in European countries, it seems to me this is not only a European problem since my American friends manage to complain about the apathy of their own American police forces with just as much vigor as my European friends. There is a core of truth to what the OP says, taxes in Europe are usually higher than in the US and gasoline taxes are levied for environmental reasons which is a concept that doesn't seem to exist in the USA these days but that post is is also wildly exaggerated in some places. Basically, if you want to live abroad you had better get used to the fact that the entire rest of the world is not like the USA. If you can't get over the fact that foreign cultures are not 100% carbon copies of the USA and that not everybody speaks and writes flawless American English you should stay at home and wrap your self in an American flag.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
What kind of article is this? Just a little wrapper around your buy-my-book-on-Amazon link. Slashdot please moderate your postings such that spammers like this don't get in.
Charlatan!
I suppose that the "stay and fight, you pussy" mentality appeals to those TV-numbed people who fall for emotional ploys.
If only all those weaklings hadn't "given up" and left their nations, then the United States would still rightfully belong to the native kingdoms that once ruled the land. If only all those wusses had actually stood up and did something about changing their country, then the state of Israel would have never been a modern point of contention. If only the Magyars hadn't moved their tribes... If only...
Perhaps you feel like quibbling over the fine points.
But then, all the spurious nits and lice we could bicker about have no effect on me. The fact is the concept of a state --let alone artificial loyalty to a non-person entity-- is not more important that the concept of doing what is best for myself as an individual during the very brief time I have on this dirt ball.
The rational person sees this may be a very good time for a number of intellectuals to leave in search of a better life that does in fact exist elsewhere. The world at large is better off with the spread of these people, also, as they help germinate global growth of the various ideals of liberty (which is often the impetus for moving in the first place).
Most of the "stay and change" folks I've spoken to are merely gleeful gloaters, happy to see the current changes that are happening in the United States. They use frivolous quips about "giving up" and other supposed challenges to your manhood as you're walking out the door as a shaming device intended to keep all the other prisoners dutifully in line.
I'll not allow you or anyone to attempt browbeating me.
Considering the US and the UK are the countries trying to shove their lifestyle, through a barrel of a gun, down the throats of the rest of the world....it is interesting that so many people feel they need to leave. Why is that? It seems to me that if the US and the UK have so many problems then perhaps they should fix their problems first before forcing others to follow their way.
I come from a different angle....perhaps not many here would understand where I am coming from....but here goes. I am a British Muslim. I left the UK after being fed up of being hassled because apparently being a Muslim working in IT Security fits a particular profile. After being hassled a few times by the police including being held for 3 days (without charge) for questioning and being scared who I talk to when I go to the Mosque (you don't know who is a gov. agent spying on you). I decided that I should move to a country where I can pratice my religion freely without being harrassed. I now live in Sudan, which I know is not everyones cup of tea, but I can now go to the Mosque every day, study my religion etc. without being harrassed. I still work in IT security without special branch bursting into my office and making me out to be a terrorist in front of my co-workers.
My advise to Muslims living in the West is to get out. Go and live in a country where you can pratice your religion and don't fall for the false "freedom" that is put forward by Western propaganda. Out of my fellow Muslims collegues from my time at University in London..... I think now over half have left the UK due to similar reasons to me. That should say something about the false freedoms of the West.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
Canada has an active capalist economy, free trade with the USA, and demonstrates no existential threat. Why would the US attack? Occupation costs would wildly exceed the cost of just purchasing the raw materials. Not to mention the political upheval, of all the families that live on both sides of the border.
It is arguable that every war since the revolution (including the civil war) was faught over one or more of these things. (Spanish American war was faught over a percieved existential threat, Monroe Doctrine etc..)
side note: It would have been MUCH cheaper to buy the oil from Iraq, rather than fight either Gulf War 1 or 2. Oil is fungable so trade bariers are irrelevent. Either I'm wrong in my (hasty) cost analysis or some existential threat must have been percieved.
I would rather be ashes than dust!
Come to Scotland, IT'S NOT ENGALND. Although our foreign policy is still decided by the parliament in Westminster and so have the same problems there, we have our own parliament that deals with domestic stuff, and although it has no powers over such matters, is in constant disagreement with Westminster. In fact I believe one of the articles on Slashdot the other day was by Mark Ballard, a Green member of the Scottish parliament.
Why can't one live in America? It's a truly great country that people should feel privliged to live in.
IANAY but if you're thinking of leaving because of the current political situation then you really shouldn't. This is a really hot topic that many people are very passionate about and it would be a real shame if they all just gave up and left, leaving the country to those whom they think are ruining it.
An interesting question then to pose is what happens when your new country goes down the same path? Do you emmigrate again? When do you make a stand? People have had it easy for a while and have not had to do anything for their basic human rights. Now these rights are being chipped away at and you're going to have to do something.From what I see and hear, many people, if not the majority, feel the same on the important issues such as civil liberties. Something can be done about it and even if one doesn't feel like they are able to, there are many people who do feel able and need your support.
But really people.... If you have enough energy and patience to get a passport, plane tickets, pack up your things, find a place to live, navigate through a country's immigration laws(in itself a sometimes Herculean task), get a job, learn a new language, adopt to a new culture, etc... you can attend/organize a few local meetings and educate yourself in what needs to be changed and how best to go about it. You can do what little it takes to make yourself heard.
Come to New Zealand. We have a relatively free country with decent prosperity and friendly welcoming people. That and it is a pretty darn nice place to live. I happen to think that it is quite the advantage that there are very few animals that will bite/poison/maim you, so aside from other humans and your own stupidity it is also a pretty safe place to live. And to be even more specific, Wellington is the best city to live in.
Don't come back to Europe! You guys left the civilised world in the 16th century and you should stay there. And besides, who would like to leave the land of the free?
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all.
God spoke to me.
I moved to France last year with my wife and 3 young children. The services are incredible. We receive ~$500 a month from the govt just for having 3 kids. We even received ~$800 for back to school supplies. We have health care, free education with bus service, nicely maintained public services - everything that you don't have in America. We are even receiving the "minimum revenue for societal insertion" until I get my business off the ground. It's like getting paid minimum wage so that you remain a viable part of society and aren't pushed into the margins. Imagine tax dollars actually being put to good use!
I had deep reservations about leaving my home country. I love America and everything it used to stand for. However, as previously stated, I have 3 children, and I really don't see any viable future for them in the NEW American. So I decided to cash in on my wife's Frenchness and give it a shot. So far, it's working nicely. I even took 6 months off to do nothing to make up for all the lost vacation time corporate America imposed on me. My last few years' vacations have been job seaching after getting laid off.
Good luck to all the Americans who remain. Vote for some real change - and hope the election doesn't get stolen again.
Impeach the whole lot of the neocons, try them and imprison them. Then try to recup some of the looted booty - good luck there!
Somewhere up in the highlands where its nice and cool, away from the heat. I should caveat though, I speak spanish and lived there from '72 to '86, and again from '90 - '92 I'll probably go back there when I retire.
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
It's not so much that you wouldn't want to leave. It's more that no country worth going to lets you in without you having a job or SO much money that you don't need one.
In that sense, US citizens are in the same boat as the people from developing countries...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Get real.
It is typical of people who post on these online sites to bitch about something and never do anything to correct the problem. A million and one excuses will come up as to why can't actually do what they claim they will do/should do.
Move to another country? Hell no. Regardless of what Administration is running this country there isn't another I would rather live in. Hell for all the talk about how bad its here, and only because of who's in office - gotta love that hidden angle - why are people from all these countries that supposedly hate Bush/USA still coming?
If all you can do is bitch please don't have children. Hell we'd still be British.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
While this book is probably fairly interesting, this is yet another slashvertisement. Notice the similarity between the two URLs?
y our_gui.html
/ >/
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/23/getting_out_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0976082276
Fact is, as an American citizen, I am welcome nowhere. It requires a God awful amount of money to leave the USA, but few places would accept us anyway, and usually only if we're wealthy.
Once while visiting a German speaking section of Switzerland, I approach someone to ask ```Sprechen Sie Englisch?'', and the response I got was, ``I speak English, but I don't speak American.'' That about says it all.
This may be true, be for some people (including me, in America) the country of citizenship is 'beyond repair', so it's time to start somewhere else.
In the US, the tax burden is well under 50 percent. Local taxes of all kinds - income tax, property tax, sales tax (aka VAT), etc. - are around 10 percent, max of about 13 percent. It varies from state to state. The average federal tax rate is under 12 percent. The average tax burden is around 22 percent in the US.
Certainly no problems with invasion of privacy there...
1729 = 9^3 + 10^3 = 1^3 + 12^3
I suggest moving to Cuba. Help build the new humanity.
Come to Amsterdam, lovely town. Forget about the stereotypes of coffeeshops and drugs, the canals and houses are very nice. There's a good market for IT people and plenty of foreign companies to work for where you dont have to learn Dutch. Plus if you come over and are hired by a foreign company you can benefit for 10 years of the "30% tax ruling" which means that the first 30% of your salary is tax free. The rest is taxed at the normal rate but then you come in at a much lower tax rate. I've been taking advantage of that although it's ending for me in 3 months unfortunately. It sucks that it rains a lot but when it's sunny it's a beautiful town. Do like the locals, buy a small boat and cruise around the canals drinking some beers or bbq'ing. And plenty of small bars and lovely beer - lots of micro breweries in NL but you also get everything that Belgium has to offer. And in Amsterdam you are in a quite central location. Only 2 hour train to Cologne, 3 to Brussels (2 next year with fast train), 5 to Paris (4 w/ fast train). The airport is close by and plenty of low cost airlines for weekend trips all over Europe.
...Australia. On the very day that Bush was "appointed" to office I purchased my one-way ticket from Seattle to Sydney. After a few years and a few dollars I got my citizenship, and am now in the process of revoking my US citizenship. I could not be prouder to be a citizen of Australia, and it's amusing to watch the US self-destruct from a distance. Ironically, I'm living and working in Thailand at the moment, which is not a bad place to be. I'll only be going back to the US for weddings and funerals.
Having been all over the world in each direction, my family and I have adapted well to the European lifestyle, and if you were to come to our home, you'd see we adopted the best of everything -
* Daily exercise (a good portion of Europe values daily exercise)
* Lunch is our main meal (taken from the French)
* Red Wine with Lunch and / or dinner
* Use of the Sauna & hot tub several times per week
* Lack of bathing suit when we swim
What we discovered in our travels, and through our friendship with many Europeans, is that our lives were filled with so much stress that when we did it the European way, the stress level really went WAY down. Europeans are relaxed about simple nudity whereas Americans are so hung up about it. Europeans take time and enjoy their food (as does a large portion of the rest of the world) and Europeans have long discovered the health benefits of the sauna several times per week.
Now...that doesn't answer the original question, so I'll answer it this way. If I was moving to Europe to work, I'd probably go to Austria, Germany or France. If I was going to retire, I'd go to Croatia. Since it is MUCH harder for an American to move to Europe than for a European to move to the US...I'll probably be here until I can get my company to transfer me.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
You Aussies got some hot chicks!
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you're full of shit. You're just spewing around the typical Italian self-loathing, constantly fostered by the left wing in this country.
Your allegations could be countered point for point, but nobody reads AC posts, so it would probably be a waste of time. Your incredibly ignorant comment about catholicism speaks volumes about your credibility.
If you had ever worked in Italy you would know that the "office politics" are no worse than what you would find in any other capitalist country; they merely appear magnified through the lens of prejudice againt their own country carried by most Italians, or in the eyes of spoiled youths who take everything for granted and see any obstacle in their path as an evil plot to rob them of the golden future that they feel they deserve by birthright.
But that's not the way it works: it's the hard work of past generations that made Italy one of the major economic powers in the world.
Unfortunately, you'll never know. You took all you could from this country, you received an education, paid for by taxpayer money, that allowed you to go on and be successful in another country, and then you left, never giving anything back, and carrying your bag of prejucides with you.
Good riddance.
If you are an enterpreneur working with IT and highly educated they have great services for talent importing and may find a place for you, plus a lot of assistance about relocating etc. My firm used to run a global business from Italy but have moved to Switzerland and don't regret it. No more 60-65% off your gross income to finance Italian debt.
Upsides:
(Almost) everyone in the northern part of Belgium speaks English, including city administration/officials.
Immigration laws are lax and you're allowed to retain your US citizenship even after you've been given Belgian nationality.
Cable internet and cell phone coverage everywhere.
Traffic law enforcement focused on parking fines and speeding (you can do whatever you want as long as you're not speeding and pay for parking)
Best medical care in the world.
Doctors make house calls.
Lots of jobs for someone with a US accent and cultural background.
Very few terrorists.
Reasonable legal system.
Downsides:
lousy weather.
You're taxed to death: 50-55% income tax, 21% VAT (but you can maybe get an expat thing going and pay far less income tax).
Lousy weather.
I moved to Dubai almost two years ago because I wanted some foreign work experience and my wife, who's Indian but grew up here, was sick of Boston weather. We chose Dubai because English is spoken everywhere (my French is OK, but a linguist I am not), we have family connections here (my in-laws), the economy is booming, and we thought we'd be able to save money (there are almost no taxes at all). We've stayed because the economy is indeed booming, it was easy to make friends, and you can hire a full-time maid/nanny for nothing. There are plenty of drawbacks, to be sure: overwhelming materialism, the difficulty of saving money when rent eats up half your pay, the knowledge that you're hired help and not a citizen. I doubt I'll live here for 30 years, but my father-in-law said the same thing back in 1976.
When we "said we were sorry" (see parent), we didn't know just how sorry we would become.
And sorrier still if you fat techie douchebags don't get up and vote two weeks from now.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I would have thought that their history would give Americans some respect for people leaving their home country, trying to make their luck.
I can't understand how you can bash Mexicans, if your own history is just the same. But anyway - I think people from other countries wouldn't try to come if there weren't jobs for them. It's not like you can steal yourself into a country and then live on it's wellfare.
One step further: I think Americas strength is precisely the influence of the diversity of immigrants. So if the US try to shut out Immigrants, it is merely cutting it's own flesh.
My brother and his wife moved to the Netherlands a few years ago; he had worked for a Dutch company in California, and arranged to be transferred. They still don't speak Dutch fluently -- but everyone in the Netherlands studies English in school (and many are perfectly fluent), so it's easy for them to get by.
They moved out of the US mostly to be closer to his wife's family in France.
I moved out of the US this summer. My wife and I now live in rural southern France, in the corner near the Mediterranean and the Spanish border. We both speak French, more or less; my wife's completely fluent, and mine is pretty good. I bought a car here (a diesel 1994 Renault Clio that gets 45 miles to the gallon, which good since diesel is almost $5/gallon... regular gas is even more expensive).
I'm still working for the same clients (doing web development) back in the US, plus running a few sites of my own; I'm paid in US dollars, and pay US taxes, with a US address that's technically a mail-fowarding company. I call into conference calls using Skype.
But I live surrounded by vineyards, and weather is lovely. The food is good, and the people I've met are warm and friendly.
We moved to try something different. We'd lived in the northern US for long enough, and wanted to move someplace that would never get 4 feet of snow, but most parts of the southern US seemed unappealing in the extreme. The paperwork to move to Europe was a pain, but in the US we'd been through the process of getting my wife a green card after we married, and this was easier *plus* pretty much everyone was very friendly and helpful (is the INS friendly in the US? No.).
It's nice to be distanced a bit from all the political $#!# in the US, too. It's not like we're hiding our heads in the sand, and I'm still voting, but I simply don't check the news more than a few times a month. France has their own elections coming up, and their own political problems, but at least they're *different* problems. And at least we can escape the non-stop hypocritical religious rhetoric, which is what I hate the most about US politicians. The problems don't go away, but I'm not doing any *less* about them and I sleep better at night.
Think about it -- watching people argue on television doesn't do a damned thing for any cause, it just gives you that sick feeling that doesn't go away.
So anyway, it's possible.
Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
You had me up until then.
Perversely enough, the countries that have been subject to Soviet rule for most of the 20th century are the ones that are looking most attractive to me at the moment. Obviously, they're not without their flaws: there's no question of it, but there are some benefits to it too: not least of which is the fact that unlike the UK, these countries admit that technicians are very useful people to have around.
It may seem like a small and silly thing to say, but it's quite a significant thing when you see the attitude firsthand.
I work in a British univeristy, and I get some serious flak a lot of the time from students, staff, senior managers, and sometimes even visitors, because I'm a technician. I've beena teacher prior to now, but I'm a technical boy through and through: there's no way that I'd give it up for anything.
However, since the 80s, there has been this awful attitude that only academic people in educational institutions are of any real use, and only money-driven people in the private sector are worth keeping around. I know that I'm not the only one that's noticed this: the 'yuppie' era is what caused this, and has left it in perpetuity since.
I was in Prague not so long ago, on a course in virtual environments and artificial life, and the attitude and approach to thier technical support staff was unbelievably different to what I'm used to. It was understood that these people require just as much respect as their managers did, and for the same reason: you go to them for *help* - you don't 'just get', you have to *ask*. This is a thing that many people in the UK seem to be forgetting these days, and this fact makes me sad.
As it happens, I fell in love with Prague a few years ago, on my first visit there. The country's not perfect - nowhere is, but I like it. However, the fact that there's a place in the world which has the same feel as a cross between London and Edinburgh, is much cleaner, and the people are generally (or at least seem to be) politer, is a real selling point for me.
Once I've taken my PhD, I'm going there.
http://xkcd.com/313/
Well, that pretty much exclude anyone of a non-Caucasian persuasion. There's mention of the Netherlands, Australia, Spain, Japan and the like, but it seems like the only ones who want to leave the U.S. are well off white people for the most inane of excuses ('My goodness Buffy! A dark skinned couple just moved in next door!' or 'Woot! Japan makes anime, and worship white people! Let's move there!'). I don't think any non-white would be welcomed yo an any of those countries. Pretty much, if you're white, you have the gamut of choices like jobs, travel, welcomed in any country (just ask Japan), etc. If you have black friends (which I really doubt considering this is Slashdot) ask them what their options are about leaving the country. Heck, some will tell you they have a hard time just moving in a decent neighborhood much less another country!
Why would anyone want to cut and run instead of staying put and fixing whatever problems you percieve ... spoilt brats ... most countries are infinitely worse off then the US I can assure you.
...
That being said, I'd avoid Europe - they're more overtly racistthan the average US/Canadian white. Australia/NZ is good, as is India, China, Japan. SE Asia, Peru, Any of the Island nations
My own stupidity and lack of money.
:P
Simple question; simple answer, hey?
Actually, I still hold out a slim hope that the US isn't on a path to destruction. I'm not entirely ungrateful; I mean, while the services provided to me thusfar in my life (education, ability to get a job, et cetera) are in everyone's interests (obvious for me, prevents me from being a burden to society for the gub'ment), I feel it's my duty to try to vote some theocratic bastards out of office first. Not all is yet lost.
Can't vote in US elections when you've migrated to another country, hey?
Thank you for the insight lol
Registered Linux user #421033
For some, I think Norway is a good choice.
There are drawbacks.
It's not the place for those of you who love the big metropolis. Our biggest cities, Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger are only in the 100.000s, not in the millions.
Immigration can be tricky, unless you're married to a norwegian, from the EU, or have a desired qualification. Immigration also takes atleast 3-5 months for the paperwork (non-EU people, EU-people can come first, apply after), and you get only a 1-year work-and-stay permit which you need to renew yearly. After 3 years you get a permanent permit.
95% of the population speaks varying levels of english, most educated people speak it fluently. Nevertheless you'll be at an disadvantage until you learn the language. The language is in the same language-group as english and german though, so it's not very hard to learn. (80% of the words are recognizably similar for example)
Parts are rainy. The west-coast in autumn can be a shock (depending on where you're from). Normal rainfall in Bergen is like 2000mm/year. (less than half that in Oslo though)
Living-costs are high, especialy services are expensive. This is a result of the fact that your waitress, your hairdresser and your burgerflipper earns a decent living.
Actually, I'd be in favor of my home state, Indiana, seceeding from the union. Then maybe we could get rid of that stoopid Daylight Savings Time thing again. And the Republicans wouldn't try so hard to get one of their cronies elected as governor (it's Indiana, after all - all he had to do was win the primary, beating a much better but far less endorsed candidate). And I wouldn't have to keep trying to vote my inept U.S. Rep out of office every two years. Oh, and maybe we could finally declare war on Kentucky and get all their whiskey as spoils.
Seriously, I'd prefer a whole lot of control moved from Washington to the individual states. Once upon a time, that was the case. Then politicians used the civil war and the great depression and other catastrophes (hmm... terrorism?) to consolidate power.
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
I owned an operated a small company out of Orange County California for a number of years before recently having my company purchased by a Swedish firm in the same field. I've been here for about 6 months now and am VERY happy for the change of pace. The taxes are higher here, but they actually do a lot to help the people. There are fewer extremely rich folk, but there are also fewer poor people. There is a happy medium where everyone seems to have enough to be happy.
:)
Sweden so far seems like one of the best places I could have ended up after leaving America. We'll see if I still feel that way after 5+ years
Asteroid belt probablly.
From personal experience.
Make plans to move to the US within about 2 to 3 years, and stay the hell away from Amsterdam. I know a lot of Americans living in Holland, and all of them bar none have the same story: The first couple of months you have a 'holiday feeling', everything is different and exciting. Then slowly the frustrations start to take over, and after about two years they will curse the day they made the decision to move here. Relationships break up as the American half will eventually have to choose between going back or going postal. If you wait that long, you won't have time to arrange moving back to the USA, because honestly getting into the US legally is a slow and difficult process.
The ones worst hit are the ones who once had a nice vacation in Amsterdam before, and think Amsterdam is the whole country. It's only when you live there, you start to realize it is an impoverished, dilapidated and deeply troubled town with a tacky commercial veneer over the downtown area to turn it into a tourist trap.
I personally like this country (except Amsterdam) a lot, but realize that for an american a move to this country means a move to a country where the average family income after tax is HALF that of the US, while the cost of living is comparable to downtown New York. Such a drop in standard of living causes too much grief for most people to deal with, even if they think of themselves as liberals who don't care about material things.
See the OECD Tax Database for lots of data (in Excel format) on comparative tax rates in various countries. The US is relatively low-tax.
This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.
Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%
Eivind.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
First a couple of "credentials": I left the US with my family a bit over five years ago. Wife is American as are the kids - I'm originally from Europe but have gone through the US school system and spent fifteen years in the IT workforce (i.e. this was not my first migration!)
Our home is now New Zealand. It is now definitely home - you know that feeling when the plane touches down and you sort of exhale & relax on the familiar grounds?
We moved here for a number of reasons - the dotcom disaster was looming, kids were getting to be school age and we weren't too happy about the prospect of schooling in the US, the right-wing politics of the US were starting to look scary (we flew over the night Bush scammed the election).
The short of it is that if you have good IT skills you're marketable pretty much anywhere in the world. Really.
The reality is that any move will be a tradeoff, and it's knowing about these that will decide how miserable you're really going to be. Because there is plenty of misery to be had regardless of where you're going - you can count on that.
If you're young and don't have kids - go live someplace like London, Amsterdam, Hong Kong, Tokyo, etc. Move downtown, and live it up. These are not the places you will want to live in once you have kids - your choice will be a commute from hell or raising kids in an apartment - both choices suck, and you'll end up doing the commute anyway.
Once you have kids your priorities will drastically shift. You won't be going on ad-hoc ski trips Fri after work, and having a back yard and a GOOD school will become paramount. If your salary is more important than your lifestyle the family won't matter anyway and you'll do what your boss demands, so I'll skip that one...
So why New Zealand? Because it's the BEST PLACE TO RAISE KIDS. It's safe, it's clean, the schools are EXCELLENT, and you're far away from most world events. The country is small. It's so small that on a number of occasions I've flown behind or next to various ministers including the prime minister! Seriously - commercial flights - she gets on and puts her bag up into the luggage compartment like anybody else.
When I first came out for interviews here some group of dissatisfied NZ expats in London bought out full page ads in the local newspapers demanding that the govt. improve the economy or they will not be returning. What struck me was the response of the prime minister, who dismissed the whole thing by saying that the country will focus on making sure it is the best place to raise kids - and that they will return when it's their turn to raise kids, not because of some short-term economic play. Having now seen our kids though five years of (public) schooling here I can say that the school system is very, very good. Well-funded, with good teachers, with a fundamentally different approach to teaching - my kids look forward to going back to school after breaks!
The political system is like anywhere - politicians are like anywhere else, but the scales are much smaller and so the "scandals" are a whole lot funnier (i.e. not billions of dollars at stake!) There is a huge degree of transparency in most areas of government, to the point where a few years ago a police cruiser was pulled over for speeding. As long as you're not too far to the right you'd be very happy with the elected govt here - it is principled, reasoned, and liberal by US standards. Some will of course disagree, but it's all opinion at the end of the day.
It's great to feel your kids are safe and well-cared for, and that you can have some pride in your government (no, really. It does feel that way!), but the BEST part is that we're far enough away from the rest of the world to not give a damn. If I don't want to worry about what's happening in Iraq or wherever I simply don't look at the international news. With time you gain the ability to see a lot of these (very stress-inducing) news items with a sense of distanc
Strong leadership, no worries about trying to affect things politically (you can't), member of the nuke club - home from home!
Well I have lived in a couple of different countries in my life... I really like Germany... Not to fond of the old UK...
But I would say I would continue to live in America... It ain't perfect and at least the haven't started shootin ya for speaking your mind... A least not yet they haven't... And IF it gets headed in a direction that looks like they might start... Well then it would be time to have a new American Revolution then wouldn't it.....
1. I live five miles from Canada. 2. The reason I don't move there? My husband would lose his VA benefits & healthcare eligibility.
I'd go to amsterdam....:D I'd be a happy boy....;) What's stopping me, is I'm a broke bastard...lol
yup, it's so terrible living in the great white nowhere
it's really hard kickin back and enjoying free health care
So that would include
Belize, South Africa, India, Israel, Oz, NZ
1) Japan
2) I have, but for the time being it isn't permanent. Getting citizenship in Japan is very difficult (I've met people who are the third generation born in Japan and who still don't have citizenship) To even get a proper visa to stay in the country more than 3 months I need to find a guarantor to be legally responsible for me as I lay down about $25K to create a corporation and hire myself. (As I own my own business and I want to keep it legal.)
Though I'm not sure I want citizenship, an American passport is incredibly valuable.
We live about 90 miles from the Canadian border, and many of our friends are Canadian. While we're muttering about our politics and worrying about the cost of health care they're having nice, clean, sane elections and enjoying free health care.
What's keeping me from moving? The economy. I can barely afford to pay my bills as it is. I've got friends in Canada who make more working at Wal-Mart than I'm making here as a technician. I'd love to move, but there's no way I could afford the associated expenses right now.
I would but I don't want to be victimized by American foreign policy.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but add that if you look up something like "non-linear intergenerational earnings", the free market model of socioeconomic freedom seems to, !rightly or wrongly!, result in less socioeconomic movement.
I would move to Iceland. I'm an American living in the U.K. and find it tolerable. There's things I'll never get used to like having speed cameras, fines in the post/mail for having garbage out on the wrong day, oh yeah and GETTING FINGER-PRINTED JUST TO GET IN TO A PUB!. As recently posted on /. and the register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/20/pub_finger prints/
I live near this part of the country in the UK but have yet to experience. I personally will stop frequenting pubs when this happens UK-wide.
Iceland has some of the best overall education, best health, and geographically is sat on top of 'free' electric and gas. A population of 300,000 might take some getting used to, but the Icelandic people I have met are wonderful. Their alcoholic drink (I can't recall the name) might take some getting used to.
The only downside I can see is that it's an island state and only so much room.
It's not as easy to go there though if you are not an EU citizen...
Truth is realized, not told...
If you don't love your country, then get the fuck out. If you talk about leaving the US cause you don't like things here, then you have no right claiming you love your country and want things to get better in it but on the other hand cry about how you're running away to another country. Too many people are claiming to be patriotic Americans who love their country yet run off to other countries while still spouting the same things in some vain attempt to save face to other Americans. I used to think like you guys, when I was 15. Then I grew up, and realized if you actually love your country, you don't run away like a little girl, you stay and do what you can to fix it. You put your heart into the things you believe in and do what you can to make things in your community or on a larger scale county, state, or even the nation itself better for those around you. I'm personally joining the US Army at the end of this semester, cause I love my country, not to mention the job training and benefits will be great. If you don't agree with the current administration, so be it, but don't try to claim you are an American who loves their country if you're running away.
As a Muslim, I would definitely prefer to live in a Shari'a country. The problem is that there is none in the whole world.
Paradoxically, the religious rights of Muslims in USA are more protected than in many Muslim countries.
Your Muslim sister can freely wear headcover, veil or burqa anywhere in US, while this right is officially denied in Turkey (schools, parliament) and Tunisia (all public places). In fact, in Tunisia, a policeman might ask her to remove her headcover on the street and make her sign affidavit that she will never where it again.
Your Muslim brother can grow a beard of whatever length (at some point he might be confused with a ZZ top fan), while this right is unofficially denied in Uzbekistan and many other Muslim countries.
Muslim organizations that are banned in Muslim countries such as Egypt, can operate freely in US.
As a Muslim you can read, watch, listen to any Islamic literature, video or CD (a book abd-ul-Wahhab - no problem, Hizb-ut-Tahrir booklet - no problem), while in almost all Central Asia post-Soviet republics you would likely to be targeted by police if they found out that you own this literature.
I am quite often called a Wahhabi, an extremist, a fundamentalist, and generally very-very-very bad person. By whom? In 100% cases - by people who call themselves Muslims. I was never called or referred to as such by my fellow Americans.
There are many bad things that US is doing now to Muslims, like, eh, killing them, for example (Muslims out of the country), by thousands, harassing them in the airports, jailing them for life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong people (inside the country), referring to them in general (not to confuse with personal attitudes of Americans) as bad people of various flavours (fascists, etc.), supporting dictatorships. On the moral level this poses really tough questions of whether Muslims can live in US and pay taxes.
At this moment I feel like an old Jew from Odessa, who was given freedom of travelling in the dawn of post-Soviet times, went to the travel agency and after incessant queries about wide range of possibilities to travel to different countries picked by rotating the globe model, asked: "Do you have another globe?".
But that is ok. It does not really matter where a Muslim lives as long as he can practice his religion. This world is just a test anyway. My real nationality is Paradise (Muslims believe that all people's souls originated from Paradise), and THAT nationality I would definitely would not like to lose.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
1. It's a heluva interesting set of questions, with lots of interesting responses, as well as the usual set of flamebaits and displays of ignorance. (Such is free speech...)
.72 to the USD, I needed 2x US income in CAD to have the same disposable income. (I did this calculation by taking my after-tax US paycheck, subtracting housing costs, converting that to CAD, and then adding back in housing costs and CAD taxes.) By the way, one thing I learned is that the Canadian Health System is NOT free. It's paid 100% by your employer. I was offered either a salary or an hourly contracting contract, and was surprised to learn how much I'd have to pay for the insurance, just like I would as an hourly contract employee in the US.
2. However those who talk about a country that they have NOT lived in should indicate so. That particularly includes non-US residents who talk about all the problems with living in the US.
3. Me, I've spent 2 1/2 years in Canada (Vancouver, BC). What I've found most disturbing about the experience was the inaccurate knowledge of the US held by most Canadians. One incident particularly stands out. A Canadian said "I bet you feel a lot safer here than the US, with all the crime there." I responded, "No. Actually, in the sample-set of 'people I work with', the crime rate is MUCH HIGHER here. Where I worked before coming to Canada, in 9 years with that company I had my car stolen once and broken into once, and one other co-worker had his car broken into once, both car break-ins were at the same meeting. Here in Vancouver, in 2 years, about 10-15 people have been victims of property crimes, including having their homes broken into."
Unfortunately, it seems that most non-US residents gain their impressions of the US from TV shows and their own media (mis-reporting).
4. WIth respect to cost-of-living, it's difficult to compare. But I did the numbers in Canada. Because of the high housing costs in Vancouver, the high income tax rates, the high sales tax, etc, when the Looney was at
There are good websites that do cost-of-living comparisons, I wish 10 years ago I had known some of what those sites tell you.
5. So when you factor out the money, you're left with a whole bunch of intangibles, and those become a lot harder to evaluate. The most interesting stories in these threads have been those that provide both good-points and bad-points on the intangibles.
6. Even though the US was a 30 minute drive away, I will tell you that particularly my wife got homesick and lonely. And in Canada (at least discounting Quebec:-) there's not the linguistic differences that you get elsewhere. So if you're really serious about this, don't discount that as a factor, particularly on family members. We both knew the Vancouver job wasn't 'forever', but we left earlier than I would have at my wife's insistance.
dave
I lived in Japan for two years. I wouldn't mind going back. The stuff about Japan being "crazy" and wacky is crap caused by people believing what they see on TV/YouTube, but Japan is fun, at least if you don't have much responsibility (Ie. You're not Japanese yourself).
Number two on the list is maybe New Zealand. It seems to have a good nature vibe going. (Plus the people speaking English is sometimes nice.)
I would live in Taiwan. I've been there three times, loved it each time. The rich culture and history just astounds me with each visit. My wife is from Taiwan, so it would be a relatively easy move.
What stops me from going? Until recently, the foreign spouse could not work in the country (that's changed now). Now what stops me from going: my children. I have a 13 year old daughter who would stay here and a 2 year old son who did NOT get along with Taipei very well. He was panicked and hard to control, thanks to all of the people and busy lifestyle. The wife and I decided that Taipei just wasn't a kid-friendly place... our small backwoods town in the southeast is sufficing just fine.
I don't think wealth and freedom are that tightly related. Sure, wealth can sometimes buy freedom, although sometimes it can't, and you really need a whole lot of it to buy your way into freedom.
I'd say that'd be the perfect situation. Whether or not it's possible is something I'm less sure about.
It's perfectly possible to be on a moderate salary, work little, and spend little. I've spend years of my post-college days doing so, and I was more free then than I am now. This is not to say that freedom is everything. I am much happier than I was then. Wealth does not equal freedom. Freedom does not equal happiness. And happiness does not equal wealth. The three are related, but not directly (or inversely for that matter).
That really all depends on how those taxes are spent. It's possible in theory, I suppose, that the taxes will be spent on "contributing to a community", but I haven't ever seen it in practice.
If we're going to compare taxes, you've also got to include the health care costs - in the US you pay it directly whereas in the EU it's included in our taxes...
And even with our universal heathcare I'm sure we could cope with plenty of tax cuts in the UK
the truth is, it's not where you're at
it's what you make of it
oh, and home is where the heart is
Words to men, as air to birds.
There aren't any lions there.
DJCC
The answers I see are mainly countries that have much similarity to the USofA anyway. The same sort of lifestyle. So first determine what your goal is.
Do you want to have an exact copy of what you already have? Then stay. Otherwise look at what your goals are. If it is quality of life, perhaps a less developed country will bring you much more, because the pay (even if it is much less then what you get) will take your further.
Also regarding the high taxes you pay in Europe. Don't look at wether you pay 10% or 60% or whatever as you won't see it anyway. Just concentrate on what you get in your account.
And if you plan on going, plan on going for a year. That way you will have a plan to go back after a year. That is if you don't stay wherever you end up. Leaving your country and try out another for one year is a good idea for everybody. A break from all that you know will be an experience you will never forget and it will help you grow and perhaps meet people you normaly would never even talk to.
And it realy does not matter what you do in that year.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The U.S. Department of State is recruiting IT people RIGHT NOW
t ies/infomanage.html
to work in the Foreign Service and support the work of our diplomatic
corps at embassies and consulates overseas. The recruitment period
ends on 11/3/06 - less than 10 days from now.
Working at a US Embassy has some major perks. When you work for the
government overseas they pay all of your housing and utilities. Embassy
housing ain't like Army housing. Think mansion in the 3rd world and
downtown apartments in the first world. Cost of living pay to help
afford life in London, danger pay for Kabul or Baghdad, hardship pay
for subsaharan Africa. Uncle Sam takes care of his own.
Sure the work is boring, the coworkers are annoying, and people
like to blow up your workplace. On the plus side, you move every
2-4 years, sometimes to very very nice places. You get USA and
local country holidays off (15-20 holidays per year) plus vacation
and benefits like every other USG employee.
Besides, how cool would it be to have a Diplomatic (Black) Passport?
Check the Department of State recruitment page here:
http://www.careers.state.gov/specialist/opportuni
The pay band quotes on the page doesn't seem too high, but remember
that the pay listed doesn't include all the freebies like housing,
utilities, cost-of-living, hardship, etc - many of which are tax-free.
I'd pay the numbers by $30,000 to get a real approximation of the value
of overseas benefits paid by Uncle Sam.
"I wanna live all alone in the desert I wanna be like Georgia O'Keeffe I wanna live on the upper east side and never go down in the street"...
If it can't be done wrong... it can't be done.
Exactly, the USians don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. They think the Vietnam war was fought in Korea, Austria and Australia are interchangeable, and don't even know where Mexico is. Shit, they usually think that their own nation's capital is either in the middle of the US or in Washington State. Most are lousy at math. The reason why for all of this? They are more interested in sports, etertainment, fucking, and better ways to kill others, yet don't give a fuck about thinking. No wonder why every country has surpassed those fucktards.
1) Israel... 2) Money unfortunately.
-- Josh
"Whoopie! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but that's a long one for me!" - Pete Conrad
Make that ' pad the numbers ' by $30,000. The tax-free housing and free utilities are h-u-g-e.
Not within a country, which probably means somewhere on the high seas.
No ship, no army, and I haven't yet convinced my wife to come with me.
That page is full of half-truths and poor statistics.
I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. There are numerous reasons not to indulge, and I found them all when I used over 20 years ago. False anti-drug propaganda is not necessary in the light of the real reasons for not using drugs.
However, the arguments for not using drugs do not support the case for making war on drugs, which is an entirely different issue. IMO, the consequences of our drug war far outweigh the harm caused by what would be legal drug use.
A couple of factoids (not sufficient for decision-making): The UK had almost NO drug-related crime when drugs were available from the National Health Service. Since Thatcher joined Reagan's War on Drugs, the incidence of of violent drug-related crime has shot up astronomically. http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/drugwa r.html
I heard a lecture by an economist at Rice University (I forget his name), and he claimed that if we stopped our War on Drugs, the price of a hit of crack would drop to about the price of a couple of aspirin. (His argument was that with costs so small, violence and theft would not be worth the risks.)
Now that I've said that, remember that the original question was,"Where would you go?" Drug availability should not be the deciding factor.
At this time, the USA is still a slightly better place to live than almost anyplace in the World, especially eonomically. It is deteriorating, but it is still better. According to the "Pocket World in Figures" (2003 is my latest), only the citizens of Luxembourg have more purchasing power than the average US citizen. Our purchasing power is higher than Japan, Germany, France, England and Canada. I correspond every day with friends who live in Sweden and Norway. They all love it, but it's only a good place to live; not to make money. Things are scarce, money is scarcer. (They have incomes of approximately $3000/mo USD, and this is GOOD income in Sweden! But it buys a lot less than the USA.) This seems to be true of Denmark, also. A friend of mine (Chinese-American with law offices in Houston, Singapore and Rotterdam) says that taxes in the Netherlands take about 75% her income there, prices are high, and services are slow. A friend of mine in Italy said it took her 6 months to get a dial-up internet connection in Rome two years ago, and it costs 4 times what she'd pay in the States. (She met a lot of nice friends in internet cafes, though.)
Although the Pocket World in Figures somehow calculated that Canada has the highest quality of life (the US second), I have relatives in Regina who had to come to the US for heart surgery because they couldn't get it in Canada; they were too old. Even if you are young enough, it may take 3 months or more to get a bypass or heart transplant.
I have friends who live in Japan and teach English (earn about $50,000/yr USD), and one who is a CPA working for an American firm, and they all say that the money goes a lot further in Japan, but most Japanese don't earn proportionally equivalent incomes.
It will change shortly: Those of us who are baby boomers will be retiring shortly. Social Security and Medicare represent about $50 TRILLION dollars of unfunded liabilities. Figure about $250,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the USA, or about $1,000,000 per household of 4. (These liabilities are reported off-balance-sheet. If the US Government was Enron, Congress would go to jail.) The only way to fund these liabilities will be to raise taxes and create inflation, because it is such a huge amount of the GDP. Since most retirement funds are in the stock market, withdrawals will probably cause the stock market to decline rapidly and deeply. The repercussions will be felt all over the world, and places that might seem a great place to live today will not be so attractive when they can no longer sell their stuff to the USA and the USA is no longer a good place to invest. We
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
I would like to live in London. It was great when my wife and me visited. What stopping me is that 1) America has it's problems, but it's not to the point of leaving, I still like it here 2) I don't have the money or job to move there 3) My dogs would have to go into quarantine for like 6 months. If we moved to London it wouldn't be because we wanted to get away from America, it would be because one of us got a really great job there.
Can I bum a sig?
India.
My family.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know).
Yes. Most of America's millionaires are first-generation rich.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Our ancestors came here legally and created a melting pot.
What do you mean by legally? It was "legal" because they had the guns, therefore they got to lay down the laws. I don't see how this has any bearing on the morality of it. As for the melting pot, others have already answered you on that part.
Of course the current illegal immigration problem is unlike anything this country has faced before
And in what sense would that be so?
I just can't imagine living in a society that doesn't pay enough basic wage that you have to give someone additional money for them just doing their job. As an australian I'm glad we don't have to tip people, although this americanism is becoming more common these days.
Unfortuantely changing the US is probably not going to happen until after it crumbles. There are to many people who think the US is the best, because it's the US, and therefore perfect. These are the same people who tell you that if you don't like it then you should just go somewhere else. The US is probably one of the best countries out there but I can't help but feel that it's quickly falling. Lack of morality and responsibility are destroying us. We're very self-centered with everything being about personal freedom and gain. Simple statements such as saying that we need to balance capitialist greed with some intelligent social programs or that or our freedom to live our lives has to be limited by the negative impact we have on other lives are attacked as being un-American. The vocal minority of the country doesn't want change. The majority is to stupid and short-sighted to see that we need change. Those intelligent enough to see we need change and to see that the basic problems are social are to lazy, to scared, and to unsure what to do to make any significant difference. Simple fact - voting, by itself, isn't going to improve things. To really make things better is going to take getting involved. Form or join committees to decide what needs to be done and then use your own time, energy, and money to get it done. Inspire others to do likewise through your own actions.
I get mad that I see so many groups focusing on the needs of people in Africa, Asia, South America, etc when our own country is falling apart. Why don't people want to give to make America a better place? Some parts of the US are almost as bad as the third world countries we see on tv. Both rural and intercity areas of the US have a lot of violence, poor living conditions, and little chance for upward mobility of future generations. I can understand why these issues are largely ignored though. Nobody wants to face their own problems - it's easier to fix other people's problems. It's more glamorous to help starving HIV infected children in Africa than it is to help hard working but uneducated and poor hillbillies in the Appalachians or even kids born to meth addicts. It's just easier to look elsewhere - I can fight militant African tribesmen off with my bare hands easier than I can convince people in the US to even agree that a problem exists let alone get them to fix it.
I'd rather start over from scratch than fix the problems in the US. That is really how America came to be so it is a plan that can work. Unfortuantely there isn't a lot of wide open empty spaces left any more unless we're ready to colonize the oceans or space. I'm up for that challenge but would have to find enough others that felt the same way to make it plausible. In the meantime I'd love to make the US a better place and am doing my small part towards that goal all the time. I just don't think those small efforts are going to make a real difference unless others also act.
My basic premises are that every American needs to have decent health care, education, a place to live, utilities, food, transportation, and a job. There is no excuse for any American not to be able to have these things. The system now is not providing these things equally to every citizen and when it does provide these things they are wrapped in red tape and rules that are just plain stupid. Of course none of that will work unless you fix the social problems first. You have to give people some solid morals and a sense of responsibility for themselves, their family, and their community.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I am 18, living in the UK and seriously considering trying to move to Canada before the year is out. I'm not the only one of my peers who is attempting such a thing. I've heard talk of France, New Zealand and Japan.
/p.s. So awesome that my sig applies for the first time ever.
Since the British government seem to be intrinsically linked with the US now and that's something that doesn't look set to change for a long time, i think a lot of people - especially those of my age who still can make a clean break - don't like the way the country is going and so are looking elsewhere. While i don't think we're quite at the same level as the US yet, major governmental decisions have left me questioning what right we have to impose upon people at the local level, let alone on an international scale.
Whether it is right or not to turn your back on the country that raised you i do not know. What i do know is that as someone who has seen the last decade of change and will be looking to start a family in the next one, i really am thinking of the children.
"No, no, no, don't tug on that! You never know what it might be attached to."
The phone bill add-ons are called "fees and service charges" insterad of taxes because they *aren't* taxes, the phone company is just trying to disguise them as such. It should be (but apparently isn't) prosecuted as fraud if they're advertising a service price and then adding on to it.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Most people that spout that gibberish about leaving the US have never been out of the country - nor will they ever go. I've been to serveral places in various parts of the world - for the most part, you don't want to live there. We, as Americans, take SO much for granted. EVERYONE should be required to visit at least three countries in various parts of the world - if for no other reason than to get perspective. A lot of people seem to think these other countries have no problems. Get a clue - we have VERY few problems other than a pretty much broke political system. But compared to 95% of the world, it ain't that broke. Everyone is dealing with an immigration problem (I'll take the mexican invasion to the muslim invasion anyday - at least they aren't trying to force everyone to convert into Catholics (and I'm a Catholic before you start flaming) ) Most people have no idea just how GOOD healthcare is here - if a bit expensive. It's not an accident that people come HERE for major healthcare from those little 'universal health plan' countries. Pick your issue - you'll find that in reality, if you DO manage to find a country that is better about that issue, you'll just be exchanging it for some other issue. You think your liberty is limited HERE? You ain't seen NOTHING til you start traveling the rest of the world.
So wake up and smell the roses. Don't like it here? Change it - don't flee like a coward.
I am very interested in culture things. I am German and went to the US (Northern California, halfway between Sacramento and Frisco) for a high school year.
I also saw most of Europe through extensive traveling, but have not lived anywhere except the US and Germany. I would say that you really need to see for yourself. Personally I have some very good friends that I met during my stay in the US and I really liked my hostparents. At first I thought everything was different and after a week I discovered that everything is pretty much the same (people eat, talk, love, sleep...). It took me about a year to work out some of things that actually are different.
First of all I really like the "can do" attitude. If you want to achieve something the general feeling is that you can do it if you just work hard enough. While this actually is very untrue (for many things it might even be easier to achieve them in Germany than in the US for example, other things might be easier to achieve in the US) the attitude towards it is very positive I think. It makes you try, while in Germany people might not even try, because of the different attitude. I can think I can summon this up in one word: Entrepreneurship
There were also many things I did not like. After a year I decided I am a European and would rather live somewhere in Europe than in the US (or Asia or Africa) if I had to choose where to settle and have children. But I would always go anyplace for a year or two. I really like different places. But Europe is my home.
Maybe you should try it out. You might even like it. And there are many places where I think the culture is much closer to the US. Australia and Canada come to mind.
That's incorrect, if everyone has lots of spare money, then everyone has the freedom to live their own life. The more of your income you put into the socialist black hole, the more you're trapped in your current circumstances, and this has nothing to do with anyone else.
For example if after taxes and expenditure I'm left with one five a year, I'm effectively trapped in my current lifestyle. I don't have the spare money to risk doing something else, if it goes wrong I'm broke. However if after expenditure I have thirty grand left over, I can then use that money as a buffer to risk doing something else.
Governments love socialism as it keeps everyone in their place. Citizens who are sick of them can't clear off to another country/state if their income has been taken to pay for stadiums and public art, can they? No, they have to stay there and keep putting up with the crap.
I would probably choose either Canada--only 20 miles away from where I am sitting--or Australia.
Unfortunately, as an unemployed, 57-year-old paraplegic, I doubt I would be welcome in either country. No matter how far the United States descends into a fascist police state--I am stuck here!
Because it will be a cold day there before I move out, and I don't care for the heat. Anybody else who wants to leave (for ideological reasons) can go there too.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
I'm moving to Germany in August and I can't wait! I was accepted to graduate school there. This is the perfect vehicle for my escape! I haven't been able to before now because I'm at university in New Hampshire. At least I'm in a blue state! :) (but not for everyone) :) I already speak some German, but it's nice to know that language won't be a barrier to my success. I bet there are others out there like it.
Germany is the perfect place for a person like me - green party member, metalhead, general misfit...
(let me say as a disclaimer that I am marrying a German citizen in July and I have always loved German culture)
First of all, I will be much closer to the hot metal scene in Northern Europe, which is great for me.
Second, I will be moving to one of the most environmentally friendly countries. They have a country-wide composting and recycling program! Not to mention the widespread implementation of sustainable forestry practices and alternate power derivations (wind, mostly).
Also the speed-limitless pieces of the Autobahn, de facto decriminalization of Marijuana, and beer, beer, beer.
This is also a great position for international travel. I'm going to be smack dab in the middle of europe (just south of Berlin, actually). I already have plans to travel around.
Also, Germany is a powerhouse for my profession (landscape architecture) and my fiance's profession (electrical engineering/computer science). We read somewhere that Dresden has been called the Silicon Valley of europe. Perhaps...
Germany has a variety of climates as well, from the cool dry alps in the south to the warmer humid maritime climate in the north.
The graduate program is prime, too. It was created since reunification, so it's only about 10 years old. It's an English-spoken program and it's FREE.
Clearly this is a very good choice for us, maybe for others too.
Wow! UK and New Zealand have lower taxes than US???
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Don't give them any ideas. Next, they'll want to vote as well.
And its not like they can't afford a long strike to get it - they don't have to worry about putting food on the table for little Johnny-bot and Janie-bot.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I am someone who left America in 2002 as I was disgusted with Bush and pals. I reasoned with myself that if I leave the country, I am not paying (as much) taxes and therefore I'm not contributing to the new world order of evil (okay, hot aussie girlfriend may have influenced me to move here as well). I suppose my actions are better than just sitting around complaining, but since I've left I've seen the bill of rights become the 'bill of right' (seeing how there's only one right left preserved now), and our country now resembles what I was taught to despise as a schoolboy. Now more than ever, it's important to stand against what is happening. Perhaps the question is not what country to move to, but what state? Maybe if enough people moved to the same state, it would create enough influence on the government to make a difference. Also, please don't come here, because you guys are really nasally sounding and loud. ;)
Poverty is generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average.
If the average person in a communtiy cannot feed their family, I would still call that poverty.
Spent a couple weeks in Cancun in the winter a few times. Would love to live on the Mexican Riviera except for the hurricanes, so I'm looking at Mexico's left coast instead.
When I was a kid I spent three months in Mazatlan with two other guys - rented an apartment, had a maid and a cook and spent long, lazy days fishing, laying out on the beach and abusing the local substances. I spent a total of $600 on that trip not counting airfare but that was 30 years ago.
Looking at Mazatlan now the town is big enough to have its own Wal-Mart, has a fairly large community of American expatriates and you can still get a three bedroom house within a couple blocks of the beach for less than $100k. Average temperature doesn't vary by more than ten degrees year round - with an average high of 80 to 82 in January and 90 to 92 in June.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
Here is the rub. There is no place like the USA and without places like America and England all of the Netherlands and Canada's will cease to exist. The point would be moot because there would be no place to go. The libs don't realize their passion for our enemy is not reciprocal and they would be in the front of the execution lines when the extremist get their hands on them. As an American and proud of it I could care less what the rest of the world thinks. Unlike most places the US has the ability to be self sufficient. Albeit not to the extent that we are without alternative fuels but if we rolled up our carpet and went back to a Pre WW2 view of the world. Europe and the rest of the world are in for it. Without your Big Brother (I don't care how much longer your Country has been around, you were surpassed and yes we are the Big Brother to the world) watching your back it will be all out chaos for you.
>beetroot they insist in throwing on burgers. Kid you not - beetroot.
I had a burger with beetroot once (served up by an aussie chef in London) and though it was fantastic. I'd never have thought of it myself but once tried, I was hooked. Total burger content was burger, cheese, bacon, mushroom, beetroot, lettuce, tomato. It was lovely.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
So sad that they have gone from one of the most upright and decent societies in Europe to one of the most depraved in the world!
I'd defintely head north to Canada (considering I grew up in Buffalo, its not that far a stretch). Why haven't I left yet? Believe it or not, health insurance. Canada has "Free" healthcare, but since I have a pre-existing medical condition (Cancer, but in remission) I'm prohibited from imigrating there - they don't want a drain on their national health care system. That pretty much keeps me out of every country in the world. (If someone knows of one that will take me, I'm all ears!)
Here is what I want from my country, does anyone have a good choice:
1. No censorship. Preferable a country without "hate speech" laws, because those things are laughable.
2. Low Taxes. I am a Libertarian, and hate my money being spent on social services.
3. Citizenship. If I am leaving here, I want to have the right to be a citizen elsewhere. I have one and a half languages (not enough Spanish to call it complete). So, it would be preferred that I can get buy with English (to some degree). (Note: I would probably learn the language, but I would need time.)
4. Job Availability. I obviously need work anywhere I go. So, the country should have a well established industry for Electrical/Computer Engineers.
5. Sanity in Copyright. I want fair use, and I want to avoid the MPAA/RIAA equivalents harassing me at every turn. I should be allowed to backup DVDs and CDs. I should be able to transcode them to digital formats for use with my PC or MP3 player.
6. More rights than the police. You know: not having to produce IDs at random, protection from illegal search and monitoring...you know, the rights currently being eroded in the US.
Those would be the bigger ones. I am big on individual freedoms. So, does anyone have any countries that combine all or most of the above requirements?
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
No need to leave America. Please stay in the good old US of A. We have enough yanks overseas already, it's embarrassing. Some of the US guys living overseas are ok, but they're not the majority. The majority are arrogant, over-confident, naive, uneducated, fat, ignorant and full of themselves.
The US is great! Stay there!! Enjoy the police state, the erosion of your individual freedoms, the RIAA, the MPAA, the BSA, the Feds, your "elected" President, the constant warmongering, the obsession with stupid ball games, the weirdo religious nutcases, the industrialized processed food, the highest % of any population behind bars, the low IQ, the appalling education system, the rich vs. poor, the white vs. non-white, the silly shows on TV, the politically correct everywhere, the government debt, the stock market, and all those little things that makes America what is it - a decadent country full of complacent people who live in their past glory.
Seriously, we have a young population (of a mere 4 million for a reasonably large country), theres no sectarian violence, people are well known for their friendliness, and its very easy to get in with an IT qualification. Also, you can say what you like about the Germans, Netherlands or Scandinavian countries, but lets face it; they have no sense of humour. Ireland won the "happiest place on earth to live" award not so long ago, we have a great deal of wealth, and employment is in good shape. You wouldn't bat an eyelid to see politicians and leaders ambling down the street buying groceries, although the downside is crazy property prices, which by all accounts are soon to collapse. Emigrants come home!
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
I have a friend whos Australian and is having a damn hard time getting a usa citizenship even tho
he is married to an american lady and has been living in usa for >5years on a green card etc...
Its like the american govt folk are trying to make 50x extra work for themselves to justify their jobs.
If those immigration rules were used on actual citizens, 90% would be deported.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I'd move to Ireland. It is clean and they have great beer.
crap
I make over 50k a year and pay just under 25% of my paycheck to taxes/health insurance/401k/etc. I will also get a good double-digit percentage of that back on my tax return next year (I didn't set my allocations up properly... and we had a child and purchased a house. There are lots of ways in the US to mitigate taxes and build wealth.)
... I wouldn't say that, what I would say however is that money is a freedom, the freedom to pursue things.
Parent made the point of how "its interesting that Americans find happiness in wealth"
I can't say that I am in line with the current administration, but I have never desired to move away from America. I continue to calmly debate people online daily and it seems that the tide is turning. The country seems to be moving in a more rational direction in terms of war and privacy. It would be my opinion, that the weaker among us are the ones who want to move. This country grants each a voice and an opportunity to convince others of their ideology. If your ideology or debating skills are so weak that you feel you must leave the country rather than fight for what you believe in, then so be it. I, on the other hand, will stay here and make America an even better place. I am sure Europe is a nice place to live, but I prefer a less socialized country. It probably works for some, but I like the various choices America offers its citizens and the ability I have to move several social classes in my lifetime. So, if you feel you must leave for some political reason then more power to ya, but I hope most of us will stay to fight the good fight. Politics are an ever changing aurora. Don't make a rash decision or statement that you will be regretting once the political tides change again.
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove causality, but it is a strong argument. (Stronger than correlation implying causality.) For numerous examples, consider the book "Why Things Bite Back". Here's a hypothetical: assume that helmets save lives. Specifically, if you're in an accident the helmet will "cause" you to live 90% of the time. Also assume that otherwise you live 0% of the time. (These numbers are completely made up, so just accept them for the sake of this example.) Now, also assume that people only wear a helmet when they're driving on certain roads, and that these roads have a 50% chance of resulting in an accident. Other roads have a 5% chance of resulting in an accident. So, in this purely made up example, every time you drive you have a 5% chance of death when you wear a helmet, and a 5% chance of death when you don't wear a helmet. No correlation, even on the assumption of causation.
Now, I want to repeat that non-correlation is a strong argument against causation. It just doesn't disprove it.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
From Australia you can just sit 'down under' watching the rest of the world bickering. :)
Even McDonalds, when they first opened in NZ back in 80s had to sell a "Kiwi Burger" with the beetroot, pineapple, fried egg etc. Sadly they've stopped selling them now
I'm a Kiwi who's been living overseas (South America) for well over a decade, and must admit that New Zealand looks more and more attractive to me. The things that we New Zealanders complain about (and we're often a whiney bunch) are NOTHING in comparison to the social, political and economic issues that I've seen overseas (ok, admitedly South America is one of the most screwed up places on the planet).
So..... for those who could, I'd certainly recommend New Zealand.
The answer depends a whole lot on your background.
I've a background from Afghanistan and have been very curious about recent job postings between $150,000 and $230,000 USD (tax free apparently) for an MCSE and someone who is a US citizen for Afghanistan. It also required secret security clearance. Its probably one dangerous country for a white American especially if you get into frequent contact with locals and have to leave the protected military compounds. But its home to me. A friend of mine was a salesman for Alcatel for 2 years in Afghanistan and travelled all over giving handsets for free to rocket-launcher-wielding warlords and the like. Telecom companies are fighting hard to gain the first monopoly and yell FP!. He was making $50,000 and probably would make $100,000 as a US or Canadian citizen (who are given better posts and paid and trusted better regardless of skill or certification).
In fact the only thing stopping me is I'm not a Canadian citizen YET, and I'll have to get the secret security clearance before embarking out. Hopefully the gold rush will not end in Afghanistan.
However, you couldn't pay me to go to Iraq. I'm as likely to get shot there as an American soldier.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Seriously, if its easy to make tax free money on the side then its ok to have a medium job.
I see nothing wrong with any one have the ability to say , do 3 hrs work and get 'cash' tax free money of say $30/hr. ie, the same
as doing taxed 8hrs work, but for 3hrs.
Nobody loses, the person has more money, which will 100% get spent on local products, like BEER, phone bills, or paying the home loan or rent, or
more NICE FOOD, not 20cent noodles.
Its more honorable to make 3hrs of tax free money, than being a politician getting paid $150k + expenses and $50k of free things, and 3hr lunches.
Trade is trade.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Actually, the amount of wealth relative to others is what determines your freedom. Poverty is generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average.
This is a ballsy revelation that your politics are centered around wealth envy. This underpinning value gives you a much different spin on reality than I see. For instance:
In a more socialist system, by contrast, higher taxes and moderate salaries means that everyone is working for each other
Actually, they're working for the government.
contributing to a community.
Actually, they're "contributing" to the government. ("Contribution" implies a voluntary donation, whereas government operates by force.)
But they're happy, and together, they've built something: a society, where people feel wanted and protected and cared for, so that they don't feel the need to sleep with guns in the drawer, or shoot their classmates.
Christians and Muslims also paint gushing, rosy portraits of utopian society if everyone were just FORCED to obey what they thought was right. When will you admit that your world view is very much like theirs but with different mystical beliefs? Never! After all, Christianity and Islam, being totalitarian world views like yours, are your direct competitors. But this won't stop you from some enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend opportunism, which is why we see alliances between Muslims and "progressives".
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I lived 15 years in the US and have now lived 4 years in Sweden. Couldn't be happier despite having spent 6 years previously living high life in NYC. Me and my wife loved NYC but got offered a within the company to the headquarters in Stockholm, Sweden. We wanted to start a family and Sweden is by far the most family friendly country on earth. i have a nice job and had a very high compensation package in NYC. I earn about the same here with a little higher taxes. But my income is considered obscenely high over here. Taxes are a bit higher than NYC but not significant. I paid around 40-45 % in NYc and pay a few percent more over here. For that money I got noting in the US, except of course living in lovely NYC. Some of the things i like over here: -One of the highest living standards in the world. And not only for the rich. -High life quality. People here work to live, not live to work. Combining family, children, career,and life in general works very well. -6 weeks vacation. Do I need to say more? -Free health care forever. I can afford to pay for private insurance but most people can't. I now have kids and really like to see that everyone has access to top notch doctors -Parental leave. 480 days PAID leave per child. My company even pays above the government ceiling and gives me 85% of my real salary. This has enabled me to take 5 months off with my first son and I plan on doing the same with my newborn daughter. I can't tell you what a difference it makes to spend time early on with your children. If you don't have kids you'll probably think this item is stupid:-)) -Free and great education. Everything from day care to university is free (day care has a small cost but you get it back in a check from the government) That means even the average person is fairly well educated and the difference compared to the US is unbelievable. People unable to read or write here is unheard of. 99% here speak good English, in addition to Swedish, which makes it easy for any foreigner to fit it. -Safe, beautiful nature, gorgeous women, high tech society. There is no such thing as a downtown or ghetto in the country. Everything is clean and high tech. No buildings falling down, there's a bike lane on virtually every road, and the air is ridiculously clean wherever you go. -Income taxes are a little higher than NYC and so are other consumer taxes. Gas, tobacco,and alcohol taxes are high. Not high enough I think. If the price of gas doubles I won't complain. Because gas is more expensive we've learned how to live with it and are not as stupidly dependent on oil as US. I have a very high income and do pay some extra for those less fortunate but I think it's worth it. It leads to less problems in society in the long run when people are less needy and desperate When you have kids and family things change a bit. If you're single and 25, NYC is probably the place to be. Great city. But a little later you might want to be able to combine your career with seeing the kids and have a high quality life. Sweden is then the place. Other good choices would be Norway and perhaps Denmark. AD http://www.adventuredad.com/
I'd move to British Columbia in Canada. I'm not moving because my partner isn't fully convinced yet. I want to move for several reasons. Honestly, free health care is a nice draw. They speak english (at least in BC they do). I can get married there, legally. Their economy is not screwed up like the US. The latest Bush fiasco, suspending writ of habeas corpus even for US citizens, is a total disgrace. I am embarassed about this country and it's so-called leader.
So many people complain about the stuff going on in the US and while it is a problem what they don't realize is that other countries are generally worse. You don't hear a lot of complaining from other countries because they have always been that way. That is, worse than the US.
I would love to leave the country, at times. America is like that co-worker you love and hate. You know great things can come out of this co-worker, but sometimes he or she can be a real bastard. Knowing of the great things keeps you from leaving for good. And the cost of moving to a different country.
You're making some rather blatant errors:
1. VAT in The Netherlands has been 19% instead of 17.5% for years.
2. The 52% bracket starts at EUR 52.229, where did you get your 33k figure from? (btw, the exchange rate is a lot lower than 1.50!). If we do some calculations, we find out that the effective (box 1) income tax for a EUR 100k income is about 45.3%.
My guess is that you haven't gotten proper tax advice. It's not impossible to lower the effective rate to about 35-40% max if you know how to navigate the rules and business forms.
see a Text Widget
Let me preface my comment by saying that I'm probably the most irresponsible citizen on the planet as far as participation in the process of being a citizen. That being said, I suspect if more people invested as much effort into participating (ie. self-ducation on the issues, voting responsibly, providing feedback to politicians and our government agencies) as would be required to transplant to an alternate country/culture, it's likely that we could fix whatever bothers us about our own country and remain in our native countries.
To bring it home for our listening audience, perhaps it's analagous to the difference between doing the work necessary to learn & support some inherited code base versus taking the easy route and replacing it with something we wrote ourselves.
I was at a technology conference in San Jose a few years back and happened to share lunch with a South African who was in America to get an education so that he could return to his own country and use that education to contribute for its betterment. His conviction was very impressive to me and something I think is rarer in the my own country.
I'm staying here till the bitter end. Anyone who wants to leave America because they don't like the Republicans or the Democrats or whoever can go - good riddance to them. One is an American not because one was born on a particular patch of land, but because one believes in certain principles, and that those principles are worth fighting for. We CHOOSE to be Americans. The unamerican (dare I say antiamerican) bunch running things now has already overplayed their hand, and those of us who choose to stand our ground and say we're not going quietly will reap the rewards of the freedoms we defend.
And the best part about being American? Most of the time, defending our freedoms at home means using a ballot and our voices and our pens: not standing in front of tanks.
Venezuela-they are building a social safety net after generations of shafting the poor in favor of some rich elite, and they have *huge* reserves of energy, a critical factor for any nation in the years to come. Nations that have to import energy will be experiencing declines, unless they have something critically important to trade, in abundant enough surplus that they can afford it. Recently we just had an article about Iceland, which might be another good choice, as a country that has abundant energy now that they are going mostly geothermal and hydrogen.
Last year I told my employer they aren't paying me enough to work five days a week.
... That's why I told my employer they aren't paying me enough to not have 3 day weekends.
I took a 20% pay cut, and gained a three days off - four days on work week.
It takes a little tweaking of the financial priorities, but I found it advantageous. My life is better all around, and my co-workers envy the lifestyle. They wonder how I did it. The answer is simple: Negotiate your time to your employer like you mean it. Trust me, it is in a business's interest to squeeze you. Consider yourself a business of one, and squeeze back!
Remember the labor movement? No, of course you don't. Labor day is just a day off f labor, right? This is what it was all about: Better living standards. How many consecutive years have Americans reported 5% or better productivity growth? How many times does that have to happen before twice the output per unit of work is achieved? How long will the workers tolerate 4% raises during 9% inflation and 5% productivity growth?
Of course, having idle time to read and learn and travel has opened my awareness to the labor movement, American history, current movements and disgruntlement. The result so far? Libertarianism and joining the Free State Project. http://www.freestateproject.org/
If you are in America, and looking for something better, look to New Hampshire.
Before I part with'em: two pennies weigh ~4.996+/-0.014g, have a zinc core, and the face of Lincoln. You can keep 'em.
Come to Sweden. Honestly.
I've been to a lot of countries (not working, but visiting friends working and/or studying) and although I wanted to move to other countries for a long time, I've simply come to the conclusion that Sweden is probably one of the best countries of which to be a citizen.
The taxes are high, but considering what they will give you (among the best welfare in the world) it's worth it. People are nice, almost everyone speaks english very well (in fact, my friends from the UK/NZ has had trouble learning english seems everyone here is so keen on speaking english that they will switch from swedish in five seconds if the realize that you'd rather speak it).
Our IT industry is going very well at the moment, the country is beautiful and so are the people living here (honestly, everytime I travel somewhere and get back to Sweden I get amazed of how good people look here).
And as a bonus -- since there's a shortage of apartments (at least in Stockholm) you will end up living in a basement highly comparable to that of your parents, so you should feel at home right from the start!
I guess South-America is still a well kept secret, there are several places down there were you can enjoy, not only weather but good food, which is something I miss being in the US.
On the other hand, republicans can go to Venezuela.
I've wished to move away from the Eastern USA seaboard, and even USA itself, for a long time. Yet here I still am. For a while I thought Norway. But I've heard about tremendous barriers for foreigners (at least, non-EU ones) getting employment. Other Euro countries like Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium are on my list. Lately, New Zealand has been on my mind, mainly due to the physical beauty, and it would be closer to my wife's home country. But I know nothing about IT job prospects there.
I moved to southern Germany (Bavaria, in a small town about an hour from Munich) about 5 years ago, and there are some really nice things about it. It is clean, safe, and beautiful in a way that nowhere in the U.S. is. We have 2 small children and I can't think of a better place to raise them.
I did't leave the U.S. because of any dislike of the U.S. The differences, big and small, between any two countries, are so numerous, that you spend years noticing and talking about them. A few notable things:
1. In the U.S., you have to generally either pay for an expensive private school, or buy an expensive house to be in a good school district, to ensure that your kids get a quality education. In general, the disparities between the haves and the have-nots here are not as vast, so these kinds of issues don't cause so much stress.
2. Similar issue for crime and safety. As far as where you live in the U.S., trying to buy your house in a place that is safe is also hard. I have a fairly nice house in the U.S., but still, one of my brothers was robbed at gunpoint on my streetcorner there. In bavaria, I accidentally left my bike unlocked on a busy street for a week, and it was still there when I went back to get it.
3. I never liked the way there are so many places and things that are dirty and ugly in the U.S. That always bugged me even as a kid, even before I had been outside of the country, I guess I'm a little compulsive. The ugliness of strip malls, cookie-cutter subdivisions, billboards, mobile homes, ratty power and phone lines, trash, "fake" things like a ghetto apartment complex called "Innsbrook Estates" (actually, Innsbruck has some pretty ugly stuff built during a socialist era, so maybe the name is OK), You have pockets of niceness in the U.S., but you can never go more than 1 mile without encountering ugliness. In Germany you have to try pretty hard to find ugliness.
4. I guess because Germany is a bit more homogeneous, you don't have the political correctness that is rampant in the U.S. still. I've come to see that while Germans do not have all of the constitutional freedoms that are guaranteed in the U.S. (for example, Germany does not have an absolute freedom of speech, and the church is supported by the state), there is a culture of libertarianism when it comes to personal behavior that makes you feel more free. There are coed naked saunas. You can buy and drink beer anyhere, anyplace, anytime. And nobody thinks any of it is a big deal.
But no matter how many pros you list about non-US countries, there are a few undeniable facts: the U.S. is the center of the world in many ways, politically, culturally, and economically. There are exciting things going on in the U.S. Most of the cool startups, successful businesses, prestigious universities, cool technologies, etc etc - are there. Of all the places people want to move to, from other places in the world, the U.S. is still #1, because it is still the land of opportunity. I think that perhaps the chaos and inequality in the U.S is the flip side of the coin. In the U.S., you can be poor as dirt and have nobody care about you or take care of you (look at some new orleans footage from katrina, of the darwinian processes at work), or you can become the next Bill Gates.
So I think it is hard for me to say to everyone to leave the U.S. and go to Germany or anywhere else - places are different, and leaving gives you a new appreciation for how some some things can be done better, and also for things that really are great about the U.S.
... but they still are a lot more lenient than, for example, US immigration laws. Immigration laws here?? What laws?? es imposible!
I said it in 2000, I said it in 2002, I said it in 2004, and I'm saying it again in 2006. If the republicans win, I'm moving to Canada.
It is funny that while generally a lot of American people I know think that Holland is a great country, the politicians or higher-ups or whatever you like to call them seem to think we're doing it all wrong. A pretty damn bold example is Bill O'Reilly, who literally said his worst fear would be America becoming The Netherlands (you can find the clip here: http://dump.geenstijl.nl/mediabase/5070/14fc156b/i ndex.html). This made a lot of us think "who the hell does this guy think he is?"
So my question to working Americans is: why? Sure, if you only visit Amsterdam Zuid-Oost, de Wallen, and some desolate trainstation at 3am you might get the impression that this country is a genuine mess. If you walk through the tulip fields, sightseeing windmills and gazing at happy people with wooden shoes and funny hats, your impression will be completely different...
How come some supposedly "leading figures" in the United States are like this? Why exactly are they afraid of becoming - a bit more like - Holland? I think it'll be good for American citizens to gain some of the freedoms and perks that we have. Because from a Holland point of view, people in the US are pretty much strained by their government in whatever they want to do.
Why Not America:
- no minimum annual vacation
- Quality of life is measured against the price of gas
- George Doubleya
- Intelligent Design is considered a bona fide science in some areas
Why anywhere else:
- The shopping mall is not a cultural icon
- Most employers don't expect you to work more than 8 hours a day
- The environment is important
- Being pulled over for speeding isn't likely to get you shot
- Personal time isn't an antiquated concept
While I can understand how someone might find current political activities so deplorable they might want to leave the USA, I think that is a really big leap. Call me crazy but I would think about moving somewhere withing the USA first. It is a lot easier-no immigration hassle, no learning a new language. While it is all the same country, there is a lot of variation between different parts of the country. There's more to the US than the coasts and cities. According to wikipedia, Europe is 10 400 000 square kilometers in size, while the US is 9,631,420 square kilometers in size. I find it hard to believe that in a country nearly the size of Europe, even if parts of it are largely uninhabited, you couldn't find a place where you could be happy.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
But I bet they are adicted to that electricity they abuse. Damned robots always jacking in.
Please reply to this comment.
Come on man, can you with a straight face really claim that any amount of ordinance you could possibly have would win out against the government? You and your shotgun or handgun against an entire police department? The FBI? National Gaurd? State Police? US Military?
So just how effective could you be against the government I ask you?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I'm moving to england once I graduate at the end of the spring. I'm going to go to grad school there so it will be easy for me to get in the country. Then I will get a job there so I can stay and eventually become a citizen in 5 years.
When posting tax data, you should really factor in their economy. Mexico has really low taxes, but their money is worth less than Monopoly money. If taxes are higher, but their economy allows an "average income" to live at a higher level, is their tax really that much higher?
As if anybody else's shit doesn't stink.
unless they are govt army owned land, how ironic hey!!!
re Swanbourne
Stupid prude local councils that are full of fat employees that are jealous of the skinny big titted sexy local chickies.
I would go to nations that are more economically free than the United States, that also have comparable levels of personal freedom. These nations are Singapore, Ireland, Estonia, Australia, and possibly Denmark. I have not left the United States out of sentimental loyalty to my State, not the entire Empire, and out of fear of making such a drastic change in my life. Also, the national government of the United States cruelly and unjustly prevents an American from voluntarily discharging their citizenship for a period of seven or so years, I believe, in which the US insists on the power of taxation and control over that individual.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
Canada.
what is stopping me? I am in the US military.
Someone that criticizes his country is called an-american and starts hearing "love it or leave it" or "oh yeah, why you still here?" kind of speach. It is perfectly normal to hate a lot of things about your country and still live in it so you can see/help things change. Everytime I hear this "you do not love your coutry" story I remember of this episode of Boston Legal.
You're seeing only half the equation - by economic freedom, we're talking about the ability in the US to more easily relocate and start an entreprenurial business or a new career, than is typically the case in many other countries. The American economy does a pretty good job at constantly reallocating capital and labor to the more dynamic and productive industries, and away from those that are declining. In countries where more of the economy is tied up with the state, there are political obstacles to such restructurings that hamper long-term productivity growth.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Why should the dutch have 50% africans / arabs in their country? It wasnt like that in the past, why now?
Sucks not to have stayed home in the first place, huh?
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Yes.. if I go to a DMV or supermarket then yes -- I consider pretty much everyone in there to be an idiot. 99%.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
*BZZZZZZT*
Your geek license has been temporarily suspended.
Please review the truth table for logical implication.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_implication
Oh, and since we're on /. and the vast majority of us are computer geeks, maybe you should also consider this : in France you can have what is probably the best offer for Internet providing in the western world. From what I've seen, only Japan and Korea can top that.
For 29.90 euros per month, you get triple play : 25 Mbit/s internet access (with 1024 Kbps upload), a phone line with free calls to 28 foreign countries (including USA), and television (100+ free channels, and VoD). Plus a TV box that can record shows, much like a Tivo, and stream video from and to your computer through MIMO wifi.
That may sound strange and out of proportions, but the internet service providing is what I would miss the most if I had to move from France.
I wish everyone that keeps shooting their mouths off about this would just shut up and leave already! Get the hell out of my country! All you do is piss and moan anyway. Renounce your US citizenship, move to another country and enjoy the glory of not being an American. And BTW: the guys at boing-boing are just a bunch of freakin morons!
I'd move to either Canada or Belgium; moving to Belgium would be pretty difficult unless we (wife & 2 kids) decided to just sell it all and move with nothing but suitcases and memories.
I would move to either country because the weather & countryside isn't too different from what we have here in PA, because the people in both countries are very nice and are accepting of well-behaved foreigners, and because people generally seem to have their priorities more in line with enjoying life.
The thing that gets me about the US is the level of paranoia that our society has reached that just doesn't seem to exist in Canada (at least in the places where I have been, mainly around Montreal).
My wife is a clinical pharmacist, and I am a developer/dba who is also a certified English teacher, so I think we would both have pretty good options as far as jobs go.
The thing is, I really DON'T want to pull the plug on living in the US, but this is no longer the country that I was born in (mid 60's) and took an oath to protect (10 years in the Navy as a submariner). It just feels...different now. Sleazier, slimy, with an easily mollified public that hasn't been raised to ask questions of its leaders and demand cogent answers.
America is shifting back toward the Center and will start to look like a nice place again. Now is the time to not leave the country - America needs you more than ever!
I have to admit this is defentlay a very interesting topic. But its actulay interesting as people do move out of here. For good example, Bush has not been the most populer presedent, when he wone and when he started the second gulf war, there where large increases in the number of US citizens moving to Canada. I am in a interesting situation being a Canadian but I am working in the US. I would rather live in canada, but as I a not that long out of university, my computer experence on paper is only a few years. In canada witht he flood of comuter people, its hard to get a job, so I am here. but to be honest, this is tempary, as I do plan on moving back to Canada. It may have higher taxes and defentlay have its own problems, every countery dose, I still prefer it to the US.
Now as for where I would go if I where a US citizean, well Canada is defentlay a major choice. Why, well the standard of living is there, and its very similer to the US style of living, but politicaly ther eis a decent amount of diffrences on how thigns are run. Other places I can see US people moving to would be England, Australia, and places that generaly speak english. Majority of the Us speak english, so odds are they would try and move to a location they could atleast communicate in. Now why don't people leave, there is always the money thing, its not cheep to move, and even more fun to move across borders, experence talking here. Second great you don't like how th US is being run, thats fine but what aobut these other palcess, how much information can you relay gather on them from here. More these days thanks to the Net, but still not as much as most would hope as a lot of thigns come from just plane experence and word of mouth. So is the serpent you know any worse or better to the one you don't know.
Running away is the wrong reaction. First of all, there is nowhere to go: many of the ills that afflict the US are exported sooner or later anyway. Secondly, if everybody who doesn't like the way things work, it will only get worse, first in the US, then for the rest of the world. You only need to look at the Palestinians and Israel to see how bad things can get: most sensible and moderate people have said "who needs this shit" and moved to the US or elsewhere.
Americans citizens have a lot of power to change things: don't throw yours away or make yourself politically irrelevant by running away. Oppose the religious nuts, the pork barrel dealers, the hate mongers, the zealots, the nationalists in public and in your personal life, and the hawks and participate in the political process.
The 'war' on drugs best illustrates how the US government works. One group of governmental entities confiscates illegal drugs, and another, the CIA, imports them. At one point in time, the CIA (cocain importing agency) was smuggling 21 tons of cocain into the USA per year. This during the administration of George Bush Sr., who supported/declared 'war' on drugs to the public. Now his kid, not nearly as smart as he is, is making a mess of Iraq the the USA will need to spend the next 15 years cleaning up and all but publicly soiling his shorts to the rest of the world.
Right now, the USA is a good place to live, economically speaking. That's because most people work hard as dogs (most, not all). As the population ages and declines (we're all too busy to reproduce and can't afford it anyway), how exactly can a government turned against itself and run by a bunch of hippie neo-cons help a situation like that? The fall of the roman empire comes to mind.
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
On a floating colony in international waters, of course!
Revive the Constitution.
Under the present conservative government, Australia has been gradually becoming more and more authoritarian. The Office of Film and Literature Censorship has been banning increasingly many films (mostly art-house titles, though; good for populist point-scoring) and video games ("Getting Up" is banned in Australia, as are any games not suitable for children). There is a new sedition law on the books which criminalises any speech likely to cause dissatisfaction with the government or institutions. Journalists have been arrested by the Attorney-General's Department, who have "sanitised" their computers with sledgehammers. And as for not having a US-style religious right, that's in the works; the government has been putting a lot of resources into building up a conservative religious power base, funnelling resources to fundamentalist groups like the Hillsong Church, and a hardline Christian party (Family First) came within a hair's breadth of holding the balance of power (had the government gotten one fewer seat, they would control the Senate and be in a strong position to influence legislation). With no bill of rights, things look rather precarious.
Also, the fabled laid-back Aussie lifestyle will soon be a thing of the past. New workplace relations laws passed by the government shift the balance of power towards employers, meaning that Australians are soon going to enjoy long US-style working hours, two weeks of annual leave a year (down from four), and the ability to be sacked on a whim.
We are moving to the UK on 12-21-12. Have always wanted to experience immersion in non-US culture and the UK seems to be a good home base for exploring The Netherlands, South of France and the EU in general.
Other places we've considered include, Vancouver, Montreal, Australia and India.
America is a great place despite its issues. I'm ready to be someplace else however.
Typical.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Ok dude, seriously. What are we voting for in two weeks, and how do we register to vote.
And GOD FORBID that people should get to make that kind of choices for themselves. You obviously know better.
And even worse: that good, high-paying jobs might exist.
TFA is about a book that purports to list the top 50 foreign countries among U.S. emigres (sp?). But if I'm fed up with America, then why in heck would I want to move to a country that is full of U.S. expatriates?
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
The Senate, due to their responsibility to confirm officials such as Supreme Court Justices should be the one that goes Democrat, simply to avoid the High Court being too heavily stacked to the right, enabling an undoing of all (not just Row v. Wade) of the social justice that has been ruled in tha last 60 years.
I do agree that the legislature should be split, however that will probably mean that very little will ever get done, because nothing (except for "protecting the children" and "congress needs a raise") ever has broad support.
The party without power waits to simply derail the plans of the party woth power, in order to prevent them from being seen as effective leaders, and therefore garnering any support from the people in the next election cycle. Its all about power and money. Money and power.
Also, if the house goes Dem, they will spend the next 30 years burying the memebers of the current adminstration in subpoenas. Which may or may not be deserved, entertaining, justified, necessary, or even reasonable. But it will probably happen in retaliation to the whole Clinton impeachment mess, which itself was a retalliation for the whole Nixon impeachment mess.
I predict (and I'm certainly not going out on any limbs here) that either way, our politics will continue to become considerably more ugly and devisive.
Pro is to Con as Progress is to Congress.
My Heart Is A Flower
I make over 50k a year and pay just under 25% of my paycheck to taxes...
I make a little over $70K/yr (in Texas where we have no state income tax), but because I'm single, my total annual combined tax load is closer to 33%. If you're a (head of household) married and have children, the (federal income) tax portion drops significantly.
"They all love it, but it's only a good place to live; not to make money. Things are scarce, money is scarcer."
Although I understand the need to save money for a rainy say and retirement, there is more to life than purchasing power. Saying "they all love it, but it's only a good place to live..." seems to be missing the point.
"Although the Pocket World in Figures somehow calculated that Canada has the highest quality of life (the US second),"
Perhaps they somehow included things such as quality of education, infrastructure and (yes) healthcare.
I will not get into the experiences of your relatives in in Regina as I do not know the specific facts, but I do know that many of these "can't get healthcare in Canada" stories are years old or are blown out of proportion. In the past five years there has been more federal money made available to the provinces for healthcare, and some overall reform too. Each province runs its own health care system, so there are differences in each province.
Besides that, if there are shortcomings to the healthcare system (as there are in every country), at least they are spread across the board, not suffered exclusively by uninsured or poorly insured people. I have experienced health care in California and three Canadian provinces. I will take the Canadian model any day.
Considering all the problems the US has with its healthcare system, it still amazes me that the US spends the most per capita on health care. Where is the money going, and who is benefiting?
'The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.
"The paradox is that the costliest health system in the world performs so poorly. We waste one-third of every health care dollar on insurance bureaucracy and profits while two million people go bankrupt annually and we leave 45 million uninsured" said Dr. Quentin Young, national coordinator of Physicians for a National Health Program.'
RTFM; please, I beg you.
I can't believe no-one linked to this:
"The world's top cities offering the best quality of life"
Since half this thread debated the Netherlands, I'll point out that the top 12 cities are not in the Netherlands, but in these countries:
- Switzerland
- Canada
- Austria
- New Zealand
- Germany
- Australia
- Denmark
Almost pointless at the end of such a long thread, but hopefully some lucky soul reads this.
SLM
main() {1;}
1) Spain 2) In-N-Out Burger
Saving the World: One Drink at a Time
All I would ask is, wherever you end up going, please stay there. And if you wouldn't mind, please take Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Cindy Sheehan, and most of Hollywood with you. Thanks.
England is quite different from america.
Anyway, you should all come to Norway
I spent five minutes stealing cool sigs and all I got was this.
What's to keep a bunch of American companies from descending on Mexico, buying up a few miles of beachfront property and starting a little silicon valley south of the border?
You could always just buy a sailboat and muck about in International water most of the time.
Japan's always a possibility, if you don't mind the imminent threat of being nuked by North Korea on a daily basis.
Or you could hang out in eastern europe. I really liked Romania when I visted -- people were friendly, wine and food were good and the exchange rates were excellent. Dunno what their immigration policy is like though...
Puerto Rico might be cool too.
Or if you don't mind a fixer-upper, how about North Korea or Cuba? Sure you have to topple an inconvenient government before you can really get settled in, but once you do the people will greet you as liberators (Yeah, right) and you'll have your pick of some choice real estate.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Personally, I have no desire to leave the best country on this rock. However, for those Rosie O'Donnell/Alec Baldwin types, who are so disgusted with the freedoms that we have, I really don't care where they go...so long as they go. Perhaps their frustrations would be elevated in China, I am sure that their opinion on how things are run there would be welcomed. Or, perhaps France, this option will make it all the better when it becomes time to create that glass parking lot for Euro-Disney. Addressing the question as to why they haven't left yet I submit this observation. They lack the courage and conviction to act out their threats. They do not want to leave because they know that they will not be able to voice their opinions elsewhere, or earn the kind of money that they do here. They will not have people who will listen to them because, unlike here, no one wants to hear what they have to say. This would destroy the very fiber of their being. Additionally, those who claim that this country is evil, or the administration is committing some evil plot (Buwahaha) really have no concept as to what being an American is. It is every Americans duty to speak out against what they feel is wrong or corrupt, but, after the democratic process has been completed and the MAJORITY of your fellow countrymen have disagreed with you, it's time shut the hell up. Those who would rather leave are free to do so, however in doing so they should loose their citizenship as it is apparent that they disagree with the fundamental principles of The Constitution.
"...a civilian some of the time, a soldier part of the time and a patriot all of the time." -Brig. Gen. James Drain
I would live in England (for the culture) or Japan (I speak the language). If I did not have to have a job, I'd live in Japan. I couldn't put up with working in Japan, though. Norway would be nice, too, because of their freedom of the press and low government corruption.
What's stopping me is that someone has to stay in the US and fight for what's right. If everyone who was against the direction America is going, America (which has so friggin many nukes) would go into the ground and eventually be run by war-mongerers and idiots, with no chance of ever replacing them at the polls.
Apple is selling morality? Is everything for sale? ;-)
Think global, act loco
Which only means that the US system creates more opportunities to become rich. However these opportunities can be distributed rather randomly, in which case the individual's power to will him/herself into a higher socioeconomic class (i.e., control) is not affected.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
But really the old USA that never quite existed. If it was all Liberty, this place would be great. I'm going to put my fist in the face of the next "love it or leave it" twit I hear, they're the ones turning this beautiful land into the New Soviet.
With what's been going on the last while, yes, moving crosses my mind. The place I'd go would be to one of several South Pacific or equatorial islands: Kiribati, Palau, Tuvalu, etc. The reasons I haven't left include friends, family, finances, and that I haven't assembled my ninja army to take one of those islands over. No, I'm not talking about being an American ex-pat who smokes and does the local hotties, I'm talking about going someplace and conquering it to live out my libertarian-anarchist fantasies. Anyone know where I can get a crate of AK-47s and a cheap hydrofoil?
Josh
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
Really? Or have they just been told repeatedly by self-appointed "experts" that the best way to get the socioeconomic safety that they desire is through socioeconomic freedom?
Perhaps. If you've been granted via education the proper tools to do so. Including an adequate understanding of the legal system, business structures, lending rules and how to initiate the ideas you may have. Without that, you do what most Americans do, collect a paycheck (a salaried one if you're lucky).
What you describe is the "American dream" which is more a myth than a reality. Someone (perhaps you) mentioned in this same thread that most American millionaires are first-generation. That sounds neat until you realize how few there are.
The thing about socioeconomic safety is that some people, like you, worry about how much lower the ceiling is in more economically-left countries. "Freedom is hindered," is what you observe, as you note the less-rich nature of the very rich over there.
But only one kind of freedom is being hindered - the freedom to have more money. The thing is, the ceiling may be lower, but the floor is much higher, and all of those people have more freedoms through their economic safety than the average American enjoys through their imagined opportunity to become one of the few millionaires.
...they would simply stop following and promoting the belief that killing infidels is condoned. Fundamental Christians believe in loving and praying for those who do not believe, not killing them. And I'm not talking about corrupted Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians. I'm talking about fundamental, Bible-believing, traditionalist Christians who have been persecuted throughout history from the time of Christ. Go read your history, and you will see what I mean....
Libs must be jumping for joy. A whole article dedicated to their overwhelming desire to cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Sweet!
... native lands!!!
Canada sounds perfect. Iceland sounds pretty awesome too with a 2-to-1 female-male ratio. And Sweden has chocolate and snow skiing.
I will change my name to Quaid, start the reactor, and FREE MARS!!!
I would consider moving to are Toronto, Canada, and Scotland (I lean towards somewhere in Islay). However, I am not inclined to move because Canada has terrible speech abridging laws and Scotland has the horrible UK "Kill you pets" quarantine laws, and I'm not leaving my dogs behind. So, I'll stay in the US. And support centrist candidates.
When I was younger (late teens), I had feelings about leaving the country to live in Europe or somewhere. Then I joined the Air Force and had the good fortune to visit 14 countries and to live in one of them for 3 years. Nothing made this American prouder of his own country than visiting others. I'll take America, thanks.
Moderate me as patriotic troll, I guess.
I suppose that beats a robot that's always jacking off.
disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
As a Panamanian living in the US, and also visited other countries around the world, I have to say this is the best country ever.. I think all those tree hugger liberas hippies that complain about the government should just suck it up, shut up, try to better themselves and stop crying about the government, it could be a lot worse.
Sorry, but the Red Green show aired it's final episode back in April. There's no longer any reason to go to Canada, as we have all the reruns already now.
I went to London a few years back (2001) and it was terrific. Probably the best week of my life. I would have stayed there if I spoke the language. I called a "lift" an "elevator" and got a serious beat down, so I came back to the U.S. in a medical helicopter. Don't even get me started on the fries/chips incident.
Having a high female to male ratio is not always a good thing. One major city I lived in had a fairly even number of women to men, but had a huge male gay population which effectively made there be many more straight women than straight men. If you think men are too aggressive when it comes to finding a mate, you haven't seen anything.
But not this moment.
Castro is (probably) going to die soon. When that happens, there will be an escuse to open the doors up, and end the insane blockade of the place. Before Castro, we'd made it an extension of the United States, where the people lacked the privilidges of US citizenship. Look around: we're actually much better at doing that now. When the doors open, it's going to happen FAST. There will be a huge growth curve, lots of wealth to be made, and the country will explode with success.
They have something we don't have: a large educated populace. We will be exploiting that.
They are also a vacation paradise, by their position on the globe, and an easy hop from florida. Your dollar will go very far, for a long while, there, so you can get established with a mansion and some servants. Look to see an explosion of all-inclusive resorts and right behind them (physically, a half-mile from the beach), an IT industry.
So wait. Don't bail yet. You can be an American in another country, be on the top of the economic food chain, be close to the States and family and friends, and make a lot of money.
Besides, you don't have to learn Dutch, French, Japanese, etc. It's Spanish -- a language you already know a little of, and it's arguably the easiest language to learn short of Esperanto.
I'd take Vancouver CA over almost anywhere else in the US, if I had enough $$$ to buy an expensive-enough home to qualify for expedited citizenship. GREAT sushi, though they're way too indulgent on DTES riffraff, they really should just suck it up and hire a Giuliani for mayor.
And if there were enough good tech jobs that didn't involve Windows.
To be honest, taxation in the US is not _that_ much lower, considering what we get back in services compared to Canada. It used to be much different, but I'm finding that very near 50% of my paycheck goes to government in one form or another (local, state, federal) and I, as a single middle-class male of European descent, don't get fuck all back. At least in CA if I were paying 50-60% of my check in taxes I'd get "free" healthcare, and as I'm not elderly or suffering from chronic medical issues at this phase in my life I don't care about queues or rationing.
What's stopping me.. Despite what most Slashdot readers believe, it doesn't actually exist.
I came pretty close to moving to Canada a few years ago. But I ended up falling in love with a hotshot Washington lawyer who would have a hard time moving and doing the same work in Canada, so I ended up staying here in Washington until 2008, at which point if Americans of both parties haven't made a serious effort to get their heads out of their rectums, we're packing up and shipping off to Europe for while.
Try immigrating to Canada and moving to Quebec if you don't speak French.
Why do people consider it so onerous to learn the language of a nation they claim to want to live in? It's the least you could do if you're not a political refugee.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
As a Swede living in Stockholm, but having been around the world quite a bit, I can see why many people think of the scandinavian countries are utopias; it's clean, orderly, safe, we are at the top in all rankings of quality of life and freedom, and everyone speaks decent english. And the people are, of course, probably the best looking in the world. ;)
There is, however, another side of the coin, and that's cultural differences. On the surface, there's of course not much difference between people from the western hemisphere; we listen to similar music, eat the same crappy fast food (in varying degrees) and watch the same movies. But there is a difference in attitudes that's larger than people think. I've heard about lots (and known a few) of foreigners who've moved away after living a few years here, because they couldn't get a real grip of swedes. There are of course lots of good things to say about us, but there are a few things you have to at least be able to stand, if not appreciate, if you want to live permanently here. Swedes (and Scandinavians in general) put a lot (if not conciously) into the concepts of "vemod" (Bergman-style not-quite-depression), "lagom" (just about right, but not to much) and jantelagen (an unspoken rule saying that you should not think that you're better than other people). Those concepts are of course not all-encompassing, but they are there under the surface, and people will frown at you if you break them too flagrantly (but not say anything to your face, of course; that would be most unswedish!).
Many of my hippie friends want to move to South America to get away from USA's government. I think they're just avoiding the inevitable, sooner or later you're gonna have to deal with the people that are vying for one world government.
*DrugCheese rants*
If I could go anywhere to live, it would be Mars.
The only thing stopping me are those oppressive slavery politicians that want to keep humanity as slaves on earth for all eternity...
They only care about health-care and making sure their slave minions are required to pay for it and barely afford it.
If I left the United States of America I would move to the independent and progressive country known as Texas..
Emigrating to a different country is a serious decision and shouldn't be made lightly.
Here are some valid reasons for leaving a country:
1) Your racial or religious group has been a target of systemic discrimination and/or widespread violence
2) You're a refuge
3) You can not practice your religion freely.
4) You can not express your beliefs freely or participate in the political process.
5) Efforts to cure 1, 2 or 3 through lawful action, such as elections and courts, have failed.
6) You can make more money or have a higher standard of living in a different country.
7) You like the culture, language, food, and people of a different country and wish to live there.
8) You hate your current country for whatever reason and want to leave.
I think an honest assessment of the US, at present, eliminates reasons 1 through 5. While there is violence and discrimination against minorities, it is no where near the levels where a move is necessary. If you are a law abiding citizen, you are not going to be carted away in the middle of the night to Guantanemo or a secret prison. (I'm not saying that this isn't a problem, just that it is only happening to a very tiny minority of individuals, perhaps a 1000)
Frankly, most of the problems described between 1 and 5 in the US can be solved by moving to a different part of the United States.
I do agree with the parent post, but the problem with wealth is that
most often it is gained with 'exploatation' of those that do not have
many options left. Which makes that gaining wealth & independence is indirectly involved with 'stealing' a part of someone elses independence
In the context of choosing the right country that would appease my conscience I would say it would be the one that:
a. does not exploit other nations (wars, neo -colonialism)
b. allows equal rights of acces to the labor market to any individual on its soil (foreigner or not)
I think Swiss does fulfill the 'a' part...
there are number of similarities between the u.s. and the roman empire that virtually ran the world 2000 years ago, which i'm not going to mention here. what happened to the people living in that empire? i am not aware of any mass exodus from rome in those times, probably because 1) romans didn't know much about life outside their borders; and 2) they thought they had the best possible life anyway; and 3) they were too busy or afraid or lacked the means to try something new that also involved making major sacrifices. a friend of mine, born in the u.k., once told me that "most americans think that exotic travel is eating other than in macdonalds, or visiting a country where their lawyer doesn't have priviliges". he was joking, right? but if you bother to travel to the capital city of another country, take the time to walk by the u.s. embassy and you'll notice it looks pretty much like a fortress; then wonder why... so, what happened to the roman empire? now it's just another country on the world map and a major tourist attraction. and they passed on the eagle to somebody else. that's a pretty happy "ending", isn't it? ;)
- Stable Government
- No Army
- Great weather (where we'll be living, parts have terrible weather)
- Very low cost of living
- Availability of most services, including high speed internet, in the central valley
- Very nice people, for the most part
- Large, established expat community
- Close to the U.S. so it's easy to visit friends and family
We will, of course, be blogging about our move (see my sig for the URL). If you're looking to ditch the States, I don't blame you one bit, and I highly recommend you look into Costa Rica. It's got most of the comforts of home, plus rainforests and monkeys and stuff.Follow the adventures of the new wandering jews
That describes part of why I stayed in Bavaria. This January I'm going to apply for German citizenship, and though it means losing my US citizenship I feel good about becoming more active in the community where I live. I'm already in the local SPD political party, and with a little luck will actually be a candidate in the next local elections.
It has less to do with not loving America, but loving the community where I live and wanting to play anactive role.
Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism, but he was right about the proletariate rising up and all that. Half the world wants to kick back and smoke a doobie, but then there are people like me who's only goal in life is to buy a 2 million dollar sailboat and a few hundred acres of ocean front property, so the US is the best place for me to realize my dream (some countries don't even allow you to own land, I understand).
I met a guy from Algeria a couple weeks ago who moved to America, starts small businesses, runs in triathlons; over-achiever. And he comes to America to fulfill his dream. He works like a machine and I have a lot of respect for him.
You'll notice most of the people who want to move to the Netherlands are seeking a low-stress lifestyle, that's great, the Netherlands is for you then. I would like to see these people realize their dream of smoking doobies and working 30 hours a week (hey, reminds me of my college days). I just hope there is always some place on earth the over-achievers can go to work hard and get paid well.
He may have been sarcastic, but he certainly wasn't trolling... unfair karma hit there. :(
:D
If someone would fix, I would be most appreciative.
Registered Linux user #421033
from the a-new-home-for-the-free-and-brave dept.
Sounds like we should have a Free State Project on a national scale.
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
It is freezing up there!!
Actually, I was considering a move there a year or two ago and looked into it. While property crime is moderately high in Vancouver, violent crime is exceptionally low (save for the odd cannibalistic pig farmer).
So it's entirely possible that you could have a greater incidence of crime around you and still feel safer.
I spent a few years working in Sweden recently and enjoyed every minute of it.
However the future is grim I can tell you, I used to look forward to it but bitter experience has taught me that its rubbish.
Here in the UK every year the state demands more of you, especially money. Its not just money they want, they want you to fill in a form for everything you used to be able to do without interference. They want you to eat particular things, they want you to give up your sports, they stop you from smoking, they want you to carry an id card, they charge you for parking outside your house, they give you a criminal record if you put the wrong thing in a recycling bin, They use speed cameras as a source of revenue and don't spend any money on making the roads safer. they have building planning committees that tell you what is tasteful and make you pay for it. All the roads have lower speed limits to reduce the death statistics, none of the hazards that cause the crashes have been fixed. Every road has roundabouts on it, all the roundabouts now have traffic lights. Gasoline taxation is the highest in Europe but theres no tax break for fuel efficient diesel engines. I didn't mind being afraid of my teachers either, at least stealing sweets was the worst thing that the yobs in my school would do, rather than todays arson, gun crime, knifing and happy slapping. The lodger I took on so I could buy food when I was unemployed (and you don't get any state benefits until you have sold all your assets) quit his teaching job because it was too stressful and now lives comfortably on state benefits with apparently no interest in working ever again.
Sweden wasn't much better mind you, I realized that it wasn't for me when my girlfriend explained that you had to get permission from the state for the names you wanted to use if you had children.
I prefer the past myself when I was free to live my own life free of busybodies and people wasting my money - I could have spent the money on something useful like a decent pension for example.
I like a decent society with libraries sports halls etc, but the slobs in power today want to charge extra to collect the rubbish - which I had always thought was the primary reason for their existence. I do hope that the soul sucking irritation and misery they have dealt other people will be their fate to endure in hell.
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
Australia. The desire to be close to my remaining family (mom, sis, and the woman I love).
"1) Where would you live, if not in America"
In any of the more free countries. Canada, Switzerland, New Zealand, Netherlands, etc...
and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest question evah. Friends? Family? The notion that we still live in a country with the greatest "potential" to do the most good and would like to help in that endeavor? The very idea of people leaving in frustration is quite sad, especially in a country where the collective ideas from a wide range of perspectives is what should be the avenue for change (in our pseudo "democracy"), which this country needs. Maybe it's a sign of complete apathy due to special interest groups with the most money (corporations, etc...) gain the most influence, or maybe it's the want of a xenophobic state. Both are worth leaving, but we should just attempt to change it.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
Pros: Incredible number of different (blond, dark, short, tall, Nordic, Greek, Asian looking, etc...) beautiful girls. And, hmm, well, nothing else really, which kind of sucks...
Learn to separate truth from illusion. Because in this world, it's the hardest thing to do.
Costa Rica, baby. I'd surf, drink, and generally have a ball being an ex patriot.
The only thing that holds me back is lack of a job that would allow me to telecommute (or a sizable enough nest-egg to stop working altogether).
what: I've already attained citizenship in Canada through inheritance. I have all the needed paperwork.
when: I move out in 2008. The only thing stopping me from moving out earlier is money. I want to make sure I have enough saved up for a good year's worth of expenses in the event that I can't get work.
why: GWB and his neocon cronies are pricks. So are the democrats. The entire country is running on corporate interests. It's unhealthy. I'm making a conscious choice to live in a more socialist country whose government is more likely to serve my interests.
when you all leave, can I have your stuff?
What a bunch of crock. That's a really backwards way of looking at it. I don't gain freedom by being better off than others. Maybe in war, you "win" freedom by having more wealth (weapons) than the opponent, but I'm not a nation-state, I'm an individual. And the comparison still doesn't ring true.
The amount of wealth relative to you (and/or your family's needs) is what determines your freedom. If you have enough to cover you basic needs: food, health, shelter and you're not obsessed with collecting trinkets or sportscars, you can live a very free life. When your wealth begins to be siphoned off to expensive vacations and other unnecessary wants, your ability to cover your needs is jeopardised.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
I read about a study a while back, I can't find it as I don't remember the name and no success googling. It went something like this.
:) (btw, I don't see what any of this has to do with guns)
There are two subjects, one is given $100 and told to split it any way he/she wishes with the other person, who is sitting behind a one-way mirror. The catch is, the other person is able to refuse the offer and neither subject gets their share in that case. So you see, if it is split perfectly evenly, there is a great chance the other will accept it, but if, for example, you give them $10 and keep $90, they would probably be insulted and reject the offer.
So they did this tests on subjects from different cultures to get at the question "Are capitalists more greedy?". It turns out that people from capitalist cultures (I believe the group closest to 50/50 were American farmers) were more likely to split the amount evenly.
So take this example into consideration. Working and spending selfishly to compete with each other actually means a fair distribution of wealth. There is a marked difference between EQUAL distribution of wealth, and FAIR distribution of wealth. Me, I like to work hard and sleep with a gun on my nightstand
Which, as you know has no relevance on this topic, I can't imagine why one would want to move out of their country.
Granted, Canada hasn't gotten too bad over the years (We'll see in 10 more). If you don't live in the "belly of the beast" as it were, how do you expect to affect change? It's a catch-22. Bitch about the country all you want, but move and you're doing nothing to stop that country becoming what it is. If anything, you're aiding and abetting the country in getting worse. Continue living in it, and bitch and become active. That's how you affect change.
Empires collapse from within. If you're an American and want to move away because the going get's tough then IMHO, you're weak of character. Running away from problems doesn't make them go away.
I have an aunt who has never even left the state she grew up in. I NEVER wanted to be like that. So I have done work trips all over the world, but still lived in the US. I just needed something different. So... I got a volunteer job (room, board, stipend, food, insurance covered) to work in France doing technical support and am leaving this monday. Most of the comments here seem to state that things are not really that different in other places. In my opinion, it all comes down to enjoying ones experience. I am going to be living in a chateau in France, yes, it will have funky plumbing and probably things wont work like they do in the US, but hey, I'm living in a chateau! Yes I am going to struggle with the language and get snubbed for being an american, but I am living in a different culture! ANYONE (americans that is) can have a cool little tech job living in some cool city, so I wanted to do something that not everyone does (at least any of MY friends). Even if you are broke and struggling to get by, it all comes down to experience. Just ask any new yorker!
I thought the comment about money not buying happiness, but rather freedom (a larger pallet of choices in life), was spot-on.
The table of marginal tax rates was pretty interesting as well, recognizing with each country, that tax rate comes with a completely different set of "features" -- take the U.K., which has a LOWER marginal tax rate (41% vs our 42.7%), and yet has national health insurance (something I am increasingly aware of, as my wife nears retirement and we lose her employer health insurance). OTOH, in the U.K., one has FAR fewer civil rights as compared to the U.S., and bureaucratic nonsense with permits and regulatory claptrap for many other things that are freely available here in the USofA.
Another example? South Korea. They have marginal tax rates of 38.2%, and one of the best national telecom networks on the planet. But would you REALLY want to live with Kim Jung Il next door?
Or Mexico, with a marginal tax rate of 24.6%, yet widespread crippling poverty (thus giving the lie to the theory that the path to prosperity lies solely with lower tax rates) and wholesale corruption that makes our "finest government that money can buy" just that. You might pay less in taxes, but you would end up having to finance your own private militia (and health care system, etc, etc) to have the security that one has here, and unless you get off shopping via the web (and losing much of your merchandise along the delivery chain), I think you'll wind up missing the shopping malls. There's a reason all those Mexicans come streaming across our borders, and it's not to live under the rule of our whacked-out politicians. And I don't see a flood of millionaires streaming south, renouncing their U.S. citizenship in order to live like billionaires in Mexico.
OTOH, there's no torrent of Scandinavians clamoring to enter the USofA, despite crushing tax rates and generally socialistic governments. They're better educated and have a very free and open press, so why aren't they eager to get out of the cold?
I think it's pretty tough (and pointless) to try and distill national comparisons down to a single number. A life experience isn't so easy to classify, and each of us has a different scale that we evaluate our life experiences by.
All this is not to say that the USofA doesn't have it's drawbacks. Things like a widespread (and growing) intolerance of others, massive corruption in a government that grows without limit and a permanent legislative class (about 90% are reelected, term after term), a health care system that is increasingly expensive, and an educational system that largely fails to deliver spring to mind.
The best option is to become a billionaire, buy one's own island and become your own monarchy.
"Workers of the World Unite!!!!"
Hey wait a minute, didn't we try this last century? This whole "Workers Paradise" and "Dictatorship of the Proleteriat". Didn't the people who lived under it absolutely hate and dispise it? Didn't they rebell aginst and finally caste of this opressive dehumanizing system in the late 80's and early 90's? It seems to me that the only believers in Socialism / Communisim are people here in the west who never lived under it. Get a grip and take some personal responibility and take care of yourself. Don't expect the government to do it for you. Self reliance is a lost art for some people it would appear.
Land of intellectuals, kindly people and happy children...
Been listening to the propaganda again, have you? I don't blame you. It's almost all which IS being broadcast today.
Just happens that I live in a community which includes numerous Muslims. One of my room mates is even Muslim. From everything I've seen and heard discussed, these are people are some of the nicest, least murderous people I've had the pleasure of meeting.
When it comes right down to it, the three major religions are all kind of twisted. I wouldn't waste my time on any one of them. --The Koran has those nasty, "Kill the Infidel" spots. And the Bible is filled with, "And you shall kill your enemies and pull down their cities and carry away their women and children, etc." The Talmudic stuff is even worse. But guess what? Whether you act like a blood-thirsty lunatic or not is entirely up to YOU. Sadly, no one religion has a monopoly on insanity. --A good reason to reject all three. Just look at all the trouble they stir up! We have a lunatic born again president bent on dreams of empire and turning the U.S. into a fascist state, a lunatic Jewish government bent on committing genocide, and lunatic suicide bombers.
And out of the three, I can't help but think that the Christians and Jews have somewhat more to answer for at the moment. Not that that means much. The underdog always turns mean on the rebound. Humans suck.
-FL
We're screaming for qualified workers in practically every field.
Vanuatu, site of the ninth season of Survivor and home of Kazaa, WinMX, and the ill-fated anonx.com. Ranked #1 nation on the "Happy Planet Index." Vanuatu has strong privacy and disclosure laws (hence the reason for anonx.com, etc. locating there). There are no income, withholding, capital gains, or inheritance taxes. It's a lush, tropical, mountainous place. Offshore financial services guarantee plenty of bandwidth to Port Vila. For better or worse, you are only allowed to immigrate there if you have a business, investment, or demonstrable employment interest there, and you must submit and pay for an annual residency application of 20,000 to 26,000 Vatus (about $200-$260 USD). So long as you don't mind the occasional volcanic eruption or typhoon, it's a paradise.
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
Sorry, all the IT and language skills in the world are not enough to get into Ireland.
I'm Canadian, married to a Finn and, despite Irish laws that let outsiders married to an EU national walk in, no questions asked, even without their EU spouse, recruiters and employers still turn me down on the basis of citizenship - even after an insider has recommended me. I've had tons of friends give my CV to their boss or to HR, received extremely enthusiastic calls from them essentially welcoming me onboard, only to abruptly end the interview the minute I reply to the citizenship question with "non-EU". Countless friends lost juicy hiring bonuses because of that.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As a tax history enthusuast, I san certainly say that the moment the consitution doed was in 1913. We questioably ratifies the 16th amendment, and established the Federal Reserve, which is neither Federal nor a Reserve. The income tax propoents were the populists (communists) and democrats. The fact is they wanted to tap into the 1% of the population that had 80% of the country's wealth. In reality this "ability to pay" is nothing more than communism's "each according to his ability". In fact, the public should have no right to any portion of my lawfully earned money. (Prior to the income tax, the Federal government was paid for by tariffs, emergency finding was doen inthe form of bonds, or, as they did once after the civil war, direct taxation of property) On top of the income tax fiasco, the Federal Reserve allowed for fiath based lending. Eventually in the 70's Nixon fully pulled us off the metal backed currency. Your "Federal Reserve Notes" (FRN) (not a "Dollar" as many call them) are only of value when people agree to the number printed on them. If confidence in the American economomy was to fall, so would the value of a dollar. (your FRN today is actually woth $0.04 of a 1913 dollar) There are alternatives though like the liberty dollar (a silver backed currency), legal tender). Many people don't know that up until the federal reserve there were many local currencies and it was not such a problem because people to do so lived locally. "Notes" were often traded which were representations of metals on hold at the bank. Whomever held the note could get an equivelent amount of metal. This concept then went from 100% backing to 85% to 0%.
I have learned that you cannot trust governments. They are concentrations of power and wealth, and make themselves targets for those who which control or attain power & wealth. As such, governments must be of very limited control Nothing, no matter how remote it seems at inception, will eventually be leveraged to its fullest extext, and most likely you. We all know torture is wrong, that everyone has a right to a speedy trial. But we deny those for "terorists" How long until you are a terrorist too? We passed the income tax on income when americans made $500-$1000/yr. We taxed incomes over $4000 at 5%, with exemptions of $1000 and $2000 (unmarried, married). Who today is not touched by the income tax? Only those making less than $600. And the first bucket is 15%!!!. And so ens my case that government should be one of absolutes, and that that can be no slippery slope "it doesn't affect me" engaged in.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
as much as it would like to think it is. I'm not aware of any laws abridging speech in Canada other than blatant hate speech.
Hong Kong is closer and was doing the same thing.
Sweden. Everyone speaks English. Much cleaner than the US. 13 months of paid parental leave for everyone. Caps on daycare costs, prescription drug costs, and out-of-pocket medical costs. 5 weeks of vacation. Oh, and the big scandal in the newly-elected government has been that some of the cabinet ministers didn't pay their $50/year TV license fees. That's the sort of political scandal that doesn't make me worry about the fate of the world...
Why don't I move? Simple. We haven't finished our Ph.D.s yet. When we do I'd say there's about a 50% chance that we'll move. (Of course it will depend on where my Swedish wife wants to do her post doc.)
Actually, Denmark is the happiest place to live with the happiest people so bollocks to Ireland at #11.
l -uol072706.php
http://www.le.ac.uk/pc/aw57/world/sample.htm
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/uo
And that's completely false what you're saying about Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavian people having no sense of humour. The Dutch are pioneers of hilarious commercials and when you go out in the evening anywhere in Scandinavia all people are doing are telling jokes, funny stories, and laughing. Germans might not laugh very much, or smile very much at that, but it doesn't mean they don't have a sense of humour. They laugh at the fact that so many people in Ireland died of starvation during the "potato famine" of 1845-1849 when Ireland is completely surrounded by water. All they had to do was go fishing.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
And fried eggs!
MOD DOWN, maybe some reality check could help, I'll waste mod points just because your comment is at +5 now,
please mod the parent down. (troll, liar or ingnorant, you choose)
There are a lot of GOOD reasons to come live in Italy. Especially if you like and want the good sides of this country.
There are also a lot of reasons to go somewhere else, I personally am thinking of relocating...
But here we go in demolishing your dreams :
Free medical (YES)
And it works, go look statistics for health and age and you WANT to live here... Maybe its beaurocratic maybe a little rude and maybe we struggle to reform as much a we could. But we are healthier than most people in the planet.
The system delivers.
Free dental. Huh?? no such thing in italy except for serious medical conditions.
you have probably never lived here... Or you never went to a dentist....
High taxes. Yes too high.... BUT we don't pay for a lot of services that the state provides....
You may like it, you may not. (I don't) But at the end of the month things aren't very different from most european countries and the states.
Good unemplyment as in NONE... Right, you have never lived here.
YOU ARE MAKING IT UP....
Only a very small percentage of the workforce has some temporary unemplyment.
Good retirement. It was. Degrading fast, it was financially non sustainable.
Almost no chance of getting fired. Mostly true, *slowly* changing.
6 hour work days.
UTTER NONSENSE.
most people put 40 hours a week. Hospital workers or IT staff ridicoulously more as in the STATES.
Why do you post if you don't know jack? Bored at work ??
30 days of vacation. Depends. No simple generalization here, depends on your industry and on how many years you have worked. But it is way more than in the states. Comparable to other parts of Europe I guess.
Social services suck. ?? subjective. It depends A LOT on where you lived (A LOT) But in some parts of northern italy they are WAY better than most of the experiences I have heard from the states or other parts of Europe.
Want a painkiller? Have it. Buy it if you like ??? Troll
Want an annual dental checkup? Tough.
Hahhahaha Somebody in your relocation department LIED to you.... There is no state dental service. That is why you got no check up. Last I checked the dentist around the corner was VERY happy to check me for a nice "check"
Repeated break-ins ???
You have never lived here. Or you chose a very strange area for an american to live in.
Crime here is not even in the same league as in some place of the US. To much TV, perhaps ???
but yes often it is difficult to get the attention of the police. Which is mostly a feature. Nobody lands in jail here because of a wrong attitude if you know what I mean...
You couldn't live working 6 days a week because for 80% of the workforce this is forbidden. (liar)
'so some 22-yo punk could sit in the park all day and smoke pot.'
SADLY there ISN'T, and never has been, any kind of social policy in italy to transfer money to young unemplyed people, even in the relatively rare cases where it's useful. Mostly it ends up in overblown pensions.
But I never happened to see 72-yo punks smoking pot in the park.
TROLL
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Out-Leaving/dp/09760 82276
[All of the following is quoted from the Amazon book description]
Book Description
Had enough?
Whether you find the government oppressive, the economy spiraling out of control, or if you simply want adventure, you're not alone. In increasing numbers, the idea is talked about openly: Expatriate.
Over three hundred thousand Americans emigrate each year, and more than a million go to foreign lands for lengthy stays.
But picking up and moving to another country feels like a step into the void. Where to go? How to begin? What to do?
Volume 2 of the Process Self-Reliance Series, this smartly designed two-color guidebook walks you through the world of the expat: the reasons, the rules, the resources, and the tricks of the trade, along with compelling stories and expertise from expatriate Americans on every continent.
Getting Out shows you where you can most easily gain residence, citizenship, or work permits; where can you live for a fraction of the cost of where you're living now; and what countries would be most compatible with your lifestyle, gender, age, or political beliefs.
So if you've had enough of what they're selling here and want to take your life elsewhere-well, isn't that the American way? At any rate, it's not illegal. Not yet, anyway.
About the Author
Mark Ehrman is a frequent traveler and freelance writer whose work regularly appears in the Los Angeles Times, Playboy, Travel and Leisure, and numerous travel magazines city guidebooks.
I work for a Vancouver-based company, so I'd be able to keep my current job. I've visited Vancouver a few times and I really love it, unfortunately it's much too expensive. I own a condo now & I'd never be able to afford anything as nice in Vancouver. I don't want to go back to renting an apartment.
Best voting advice you could be given. My opinion is the same, the less they agree, the less likely they are to screw anything up. The important things still get through and we don't lose freedoms in the process.
I very quickly summarized the commentary here on why one would move from the US to several flamewars based on a lack of understanding of the culture in various non-US countries to arguments about tax burdens and arguments about what constitutes an addictive drug.
These are side-issues.
The reson one might be interested in leaving the US relates to something that my father shocked me by saying just some weeks ago.
He referred to the current administration in the US, along with their supporters in Congress at fascists.
Now, I respect my father. I'm not just out of his house and I'm not still reacting to the "awful way he treated me" when I "turned insane" shortly after puberty. My father has consistently earned my respect by tending to be right and by letting go of a lot of his own personal garbage. I also know that he lived through a time in which fascism was considered a viable political system in three countries in Europe -- with other countries admiring the "benefits" of a totalitarian regime that gives itself a pass for criminal activity. This is a serious and very shocking statement from a man who watched as the entire world fought against fascism and managed to win.
The US government is fascist due to several factors:
The Military Commissions Act of 2006(PDF Alert), which was signed by Bush on October 17, 2006 suspends the writ of Habeus Corpus in a time that is definitely not a national emergency.
This preserves the "Law-Free Zone" set up in Guantanimo. These detainees are kept in isolation from US Courts who, if there is adequate proof would be all too happy to confirm that these people are dangerous. Camp X-Ray also serves as a zone where the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War may be utterly ignored. We broke off relations with North Vietnam (and later, Vietnam) due to their treatment of US prisoners in a manner that ignored the Geneva Conventions.
The act also pardons everyone and anyone for all acts that violate the Geneva Conventions, including the procedure of Extraordinary Rendition and backdates that exemption from prosecution to September 11th, 2001.
The President and his Executive Branch are given full reign in defining what an "enemy combatant" is. I recall that Hitler regarded Jewish persons within Germany and the territories acquired by Germany, as well as allied countries as enemies of the state. Also, anyone giving material aid to any enemy was branded with the same. There was no Habeus Corpus in Germany and the courts were puppets of the state.
What I'm saying here is that we have a very serious situation in the US where civil rights have been nullified by a political party that considers self-examination wrong and unpatriotic (there have been no committees in either the House of Representatives or the Senate to examine the conduct of the "war on terror") and are fully prepared to negate the entire Bill of Rights in order to maintain their grip on political power.
Many Americans aren't aware of how their rights have been suspended. Those who are find it hard to continue to live here.
Countries who honor the rights of their citizens and who do not give their executive branch the right to run roughshod over the rights of minorities and persons who hold political beliefs that may differ may look a lot better than the US today for a citizen concerned with our present government.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
it is required to be able to speak English unless certain conditions are met. For example there is a form N-469 (I believe that number is correct) required to be filled-out by a licensed medical practitioner to the effect that due to disability (such as mental disorder) you are unable to learn English.
One angry man with a gun cannot hope to stand against the government. An angry majority of the population with guns certainly stands a good chance of toppling an oppressive regime. Especially if that regime's military is manned by the angry population's sons and daughters.
15 official languages, >700 dialects, all religions, tasty food, cheap, beautiful climate, awesome culture. whats keeping me here? breathing space.
I did try, but Bombardier didn't even say merci (thanks) for submitting a résumé.
There's a very good web site and magazine, EscapeArtist, with lots of information about becoming an American expat:
http://www.escapeartist.com/
I was considering getting out, but decided I belong where I am. I'm gonna stay and do whatever I can to oppose the creeping fascism.
Please go live overseas, you liberals with your heads so far up your butts that you can't tell what you're taking for granted. We'll help you pack. When you get a dose of reality and you finally want to move back, we'll happily accept you. We will know you're ready to return when your absentee ballots start coming back republican.
It is not as wealthy as its southern neighbor and you have to get used to the idea of having a queen (yeah, right...). The main perk is that moving to Canada would not present any sort of cultural shock to an American. But the best professional opportunities are still in the US. You would probably have to settle for a lower salary and get used to paying more taxes.
Ahhh... The Dutch vocabulary. :-)
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
There are about 1200 posts already, and growing. But I have to say it: I like America, I like the way she is now, we have a good president, and our liberties are not in danger. At least not from the president.
I would enjoy visiting just about all the countries mentioned in this thread, and yes I may enjoy the lifestyles. But I don't think I could ever be "comfortable" as a voluntary non-American.
What'cha think 'bout them apples? :)
Dark Reflection
I don't want to live outside of the US. But, if I were forced to, Canada would be my first choice, and then Ireland and England as second and third choice.
I live in Czech Rep, the land of tall people with large feet (I'm serious, I know many kids around 15 that are over 190cm and wear feet size 53 - sorry for the EU units :P).
You get treated as shit, cause Czechs not only hate foreigners, but also other Czechs (as weird as it may seem), so you'll hang out with English speaking peeps anyway, by which I mean other foreigners, cause people here expect you to know their funky language...
Also as an Economics student I can see that there is something wrong with this country's economy and if you think your government is corrupt, you haven't see the one here.
If you ask me, avoid coming to Czech rep for other reason that tourism...
There are two kinds of people - those who are radioactive and those who have already decayed..
If you do not like the country you are a citizen of, either work to change the system, or just leave. It is that simple. There is no, "Well, it is sooooo difficult to go anywhere else," or "The average person can't change anything in this country." It is exactly that type of apathy that leads to dictator style governments. That said, if you feel that strongly about your dislike of your country, or anything else for that matter, it should not make a difference how difficult it is to change it: You should have the determination and will to see it through. If not, you are a big part of the problems that make you dislike this country. BTW, would you like a nice brie, or perhaps a wheel of extra-sharp cheddar?
Australia, probably in Sydney or Melbourne where I'm more likely to be able to get a job. Visa request/processing costs have prevented me from pursuing it at this juncture. I would prefer Australia because when half of them are stupid wankers, that's only 10M stupid wankers instead of 150M stupid wankers. 10M is so much less depressing to live with than 150M.
In St-Jean sur Richelieu, just south of Montreal, is a place called Vitos.
Find the military college, go out the front gate, turn right, and walk about 1.2 km - it's just inside downtown. Go past the railroad spike monument and you're almost there. Big orange sign.
Hell, we've got Google Earth now.... I'm going to go with 45 18'16.88" x 73 15'06.26" Right around there.
Best. Poutine. Ever.
Order a "grosse poutine avec viande" and be prepared for a glutenous mass of pure heaven.
Tell 'em that a former CMR cadet sent you (un ancien eleve officier du College)
DG
18145
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Though for some reason inflation does not shoot up after the minimum wage is raised, like the right-wing loves to say it will. Curious.
I would move to Antarctica. Right under the giant hole in the ozone layer. Fucking Bush and his green house gases... I told him the other day that he has got to stop producing them. I just can't get him to realize that carbon dioxide and CFCs are not marketable products, he just doesn't listen. Oh, better yet. Move to Sealand! I bought Absinthe from them once. That makes it a cool place, right?
OMG 1337sysadmnFTW pwnt j00!!1one!!1!eleventy! (Seriously, it's all in jest. I swear.)
I don't expect to get a reply at all, but what's the best place for a black person? I hear all these "the people are so nice" comments for various places, then I see read news reports about rampant racist soccer hooligans, that rampage that happened in Australia not too long ago, and these other snippets of news that suggest that not all everyone is nice and accepting, at least not to darker-colored people.
So, my question is, how are the race relations in all these suggested countries (Holland, Sweden, Norway, Australia, etc.)?
Somewhat related question: Are black people still "in vogue" in Japan?
I have a brother there, and have visited and enjoyed the country. And with an education and experience in the aerospace industry, I doubt I'd have a hard time finding a job there.
But that would be giving up on America, which I'm not ready to do quite yet.
I do regret skipping the daytrip to Derry, but on the whole I like Iowa.
Most European countries don't spend much on the military because they don't have to. The umbrella of US military protection allows them to skip that. Take it away and much of Europe will have to make some serious decisions about where their tax money goes.
I've been there and heard heard students and researchers praise their (semi-permanent) place of residence up, up and away. It was particularly fun to hear the Dutch post-doc talking about how it seemed a way better deal to her (as a part-time working mom scientist) than the Netherlands.
Finland has got a great attitude toward scientific achievement (primary levels of education are some of the best in busines), and just plain _doing_ things with great force and enthusiasm.
It's basically Scandinavian, except for some of the stupidest parts found in other of the nordic countries.
So this is what it has come to, has it?
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I would agree with that.
I strongly disagree with that.
Both of these seem to contradict the word "absolute" in your initial statement of faith.
I disagree, but you're entitled to your own belief system.
I submit that the truth of that depends on: 1-Is it true, in spite of extensive experience with banning other products and pretty solid economic theory, that legal prohibition doesn't decrease drug use? 2-If there is any illegal drug use, does that mean that drug prohibition has failed, or is only partially successful?
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
Where: Oz, Canada, England. I only speak English, I have family in Minnesota (close to Canada) and Oz, and I like the parliamentary system in England. Germany is a possibility, too: more than 2 political parties sounds like fun. Why not: Jobs and money. I've applied for several jobs in Canada well within my range of skills, but never heard back. I think employers see the out-of-country address and toss the resume. I don't have enough money saved to simply pull up the stakes and plant them elsewhere in the US, let alone another country. My parents recently moved to Australia, and though it was a corporate relocation, the move cost them at least $5000 in accidental expenses (doctor visits, application fees, dog vet visits, insurance, time off work, etc). They said that if they were to return, it would cost them upwards of $25,000. Ouch. Ultimately, as appealing moving sounds, there's just too much effort involved to leave on political grounds. Ending one's support of a sports team because the players are criminals is an easy use of principle overriding emotion. Leaving the country is not. Besides, the best way to affect change is to vote. How many of the people who say they'll leave have voted recently?
Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone survives to the age of 50 there. But that just might be the discovery channel's "Australia's deadliest X" specials talking.
For one, most Americans don't speak a second language, so we're limited to countries where English is the native language. So, Ireland, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and possibly some former territories (Jamaica, British Virgin Islands, etc.)
Problem is, none of these countries want Americans to immigrate. They're extremely protective of their local economy. As an American you're free to travel in Canada and spend your tourism dollars, but don't try moving there to live and work unless you're specialized in a "hot" industry.
The other issue is standard of living. While those countries may have a higher across the board standard of living than the United States, the standard of living for "a mid-level programmer" may be substantially lower. (Note that I said "may"). If that's the case, then many Americans who might otherwise emigrate could be dissuaded from doing so because it would mean they'd have to live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car, etc.
I haven't seen too many posts about most of Asia other than Japan. Why not Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Seoul, Jakarta, KL, Beijing, Shanghai, Delhi, Dubai, etc. All these places are cities, and they all have unique cultural identities with most things you would want. I have lived out here in various countries for about 3 years, and if you can get over the language barrier issues, most of Asia is a fantastic place to live.
Singapore is a great place to start as it is primarily English (although singlish) speaking country. Hong Kong is a major city with lots of culture and an enormous amount of English history. As for most other major cities in the region most things you would generally want are available and your average cost of living is fractional compared to the US.
Besides, 1/5 of the world is basically Chinese, and almost 65% of the population is in Asia Pacific, it might be good for people to take this view once in a while.
This is not slashdot material, just political spin. CmdrDildo is showing his true colors yet again. Too bad he doesn't leave the country.
But beyond this, these people who say they'll leave have no intentions of leaving. They simply would like to think that we care if they stay. Actually, I do care if they stay. I see them as a detriment to the American way of life and I'd love to see them get the fuck out. Fucking faggots.
Instead, my plan is to purchase sovereignty over part of another nation from its government, in a manner similar to that in which the US itself purchased most of its current territory from France and Russia. For military reasons, it will be best if the part I purchase is small and defensible, likely an island or mountainous territory. For financial reasons, it will have to be small. For economic reasons it must be capable of producing food and must have a reliable supply of fresh water. There are many other considerations that must be made, but the gist of it is that I'm looking for a small piece of land over which I will rule absolutely. Since there will be no other inhabitants, whether this form of government is democracy, autocracy, or theocracy is a meaningless distinction. My freedom will be absolute, and my responsibility for my own well-being absolute as well.
What's stopping me? Lack of funds. Although I save over 50% of my net pay, buying sovereignty over even a small, unwanted island is not going to be cheap, nor will the military hardware I'd need for defense or the basic infrastructure I'd need to survive (one or two wells or a reservoir, a septic system, livestock and equipment for farm work, machine tools, a storm-survivable shelter, one or more boats, etc.). I expect it will be a number of years before I'm in a position to achieve my goal; there's a real chance that by that time the US will be so repressive that it will be nearly impossible to leave alive. But I see little hope in any other nation extant today, so really my game's the only one in town.
I'm currently living in Chicago and I want to move to the Peruvian Amazon. I want to have an opportunity to catalog a new species. I want to see a jaguar in the wild. I want to try ayahuasca. I want to raise tegus for profit. I will go as soon as I can get an effective malaria vaccine and broadband.
Only his tendency toward a dazed stupor prevented him from screaming aloud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard/
no vista needed and if you stay 7 years your automatically a citizen of norway.
I wrote: The Democrats have the clearest possible record of voting (with a couple, and I mean two or three)
I meant: The Democrats have the clearest possible record of voting (with a couple of exceptions, and I mean two or three)
Why not ?
... and believe me the top 1% has a lifestlye that is (purchase-power-parity) comparable to anything that you can get in the US ( think of a chauffear, two maids and a cook at home).
.... ahead of the Chinese
If you are the type who craves for money, then being techie-nerds, you have the chance of shooting to the top 1% of the population ( 1 billion and counting ) very easily
On the other hand, if you are the high-thinking type, who does not care, or pretends not to care, for money, then you can engage in a whole spectrum of activities from himalayan yoga to communist hypocrisy.
The government is corrupt but if you know-who ( as opposed to know-how) you can make things happen and believe me we have super-efficient systems of touts to insulate you from the worst of what the government can do.
But why should you come to India ? To experience the sheer diversity of the country is so vast that you could spend years and keep finding something new and interesting everyday.
So do come and help us on the way to becoming the most populous country
Medicare is 2.9% plus my own health insurance.
Guess which costs me more? Medicare to the tune of 4X as much.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Wikipedia: In October 2006, the Melbourne Herald Sun reported that Vegemite is banned in the USA, with Customs officials going so far as to even search Australians for Vegemite when they enter the country, but later reports cast doubt on the claim. The Food and Drug Administration later stated there was no import ban on Vegemite, and that it was never pulled from American supermarket shelves.
I have only this to say to everyone in the world who dislikes the current state of affairs in the United States of America--if you are a US Citizen, VOTE. If you are not a US Citizen, you are more than welcome (notwithstanding the current immigration regulations) to become one and VOTE.
.sig.
As for myself, you will find me organizing the Third Constitutional Convention, or at least attempting to do so, peacefully.
Soap box, ballot box, ammo box. In that order. Be sure to read my
I moved from Scotland to the US and i'm perfectly happy with it.
There are good well paying job prospects in the tech field. When you are young, at least, healthcare isn't that expensive, salaries are much higher and taxes are much lower.
MATH! OMG! (%^#(&^ - what did all that mean? That you make more in the Netherlands and get more benefits, or that you'll lose half (52%) of your paycheck to taxes?!
If you have $50000 and a guy in Costa Rica has $50000, the guy in Costa Rica is considerably more wealthy than you. This is because the average net worth and income in Costa Rica is so much lower than the U.S.
$50000 in Costa Rica will buy many more meals (I regularly paid under $3/meal in restaurants there), groceries, services, and property than it will in the U.S. That is all he was trying to say. Try to think outside the U.S. borders every once in a while. The U.S. is not the end all be all of human existence.
-Kurt
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
I've moved to the USA in 2000. I could have moved to any country in Europe as I'm an european citizen, but I really thought that for my line of work (IT) this is the place to be. I don't regret my choice. Well... Sometimes when I see the state of our foreign policy I do a little, but that is it.
I've gained:
a) Decent employment, at a decent salary point for my experience
b) Decent working hours, I rarely - if ever - had to work overtime
c) Quality of life: good housing at good financing, good education for my children, decent entertainment opportunities
d) A legal system that mostly work (though, right now, is overtaxed by frivolous law-suits)
The immigration policy is not as though (at least in my experience, coming here legally and following the letter of the law) as it could have been. I'm now a green card holder and, in time, I might apply for citizenship with the intent of being able to vote and contribute on not having history repeat itself.
All countries have problems. Most of the problems are the same. It is the scale in which the problems happen that are different. I see poverty in the US as much as in my native country, but not as endemic (smaller scale). I see corruption in the US in levels that even my country doesn't seem capable to produce (larger scale). Europe has the same problems too. So does Australia.
Why?
Because most of the problems are born of human nature. And that is the same everywhere.
Quick, get us a B-Ark...
Well right off I can give you my short list (in no particular order):
:) . The one thing that sort of bothers me is that everything seems to be poisonious. I have also read some stuff about their current conservative government... of course these things come and go... Currently we have a like problem, though Harper isn't so bad as far as robots go, you just have to get to know him...
/ displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005
r vey/i es.html
:)
Finland
Norway
Switzerland
Netherlands
Sweden
Australia
Perhaps UK somewhere (England, Ireland, Scotland)
of course I live in Canada so I can't pick that (and no I would NOT move to the USA)
The main disadvantages that many might have with the scandinavian countries are A) the cold weather, B) the taxes, and C)relitive remoteness and smaller urbanized areas.
Well Canada is A) Cold, B) has high taxes also, and C) unless you live in Toronto, Vancouver can be somewhat remote and smaller urban areas. So not so different really, certainly not so much to cause distress.
I picked Australia pretty much because as far are warmer countries go it seems pretty nice. Also I hear girls down under dig the Canadian accent
Another great thing about Australia and the UK is I don't need to learn a new language (though I know that most of the Scandinavian contries seem to have an absurd rate of english speaking also like 80-90%, but I would feel bad living there without learning the native tounge). The other great thing about the UK is all the shared heritage between them and Canada. Lots of relations on both sides, shared culture. Being from Nova Scotia (New Scotland), there are a lot of shared traditions with the British Iles, more so than central, or western Canada.
Also just to illistrate how great my choices are, here are some links to stuff like UN polls etc...
http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9085910/
I was looking for the actual UN list of top 50 or whatever, as I remember Canada used to be at #1 for many years, until Norway finally de-throned us Canadians. Though I suspect it had more to do with Norway's expansion of oil production in the North Sea, and the smart way they are using the funds for the future (Canada has oil as well, but it doesn't seemed to be handled in as intelligent way, too many competing interests).
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/04/eui.su
http://www.citymayors.com/environment/eiu_bestcit
apparently some of the best cities to live in are in Australia and Switzerland.
Also these countries have a robust Hockey culture as well. I have friends who love Soccer, but I am not one of them.
Finland
Norway
Switzerland
Sweden
So I think this is the difinitive choices of where to live!
Finland
Norway
Switzerland
Netherlands
Sweden
Australia
Ireland
And of course Canada, if you are not already there!
If you want to leave the greatest country on the planet (my arrogant opinion, but easily debated), I'll do my best to buy you the ticket. I'd be happy to see you go, considering you're probably destructive while you're here. Do you: want constitutional rights for terrorists? not think we're at war? think terrorists will forget about us if we quit "provoking them" (9/11 anyone)? think more taxes are good for citizens? think we shouldn't spy on phone conversations of terrorists? think the social security system is viable long-term? think we should let anybody walk across our borders and get benefits paid by us? get lost and remember not to take your finger-nail clippers on the plane.
sorry for the venomous response, but I'm sick of this anti-patriotic crap. I fully expect to get burnt to a crisp on slashdot.
if you're foreign to the US and want to immigrate, welcome aboard. just follow the rules and I'll buy you a beer.
It's only a model.
There is a surprising lack of Canadian replies to this post, so I thought I should get the ball rolling.
Canada is nearly identical in a lot of ways to the U.S. We have a lot of the same principles, goals and opinions. My opinion is based that of someone who has lived in a small town, mid-size and large cities.
Where Canadians and Americans are similar:
1) An industrious hard-working workforce. Which translates into a very strong economy, which currently relies very heavily on U.S. trade. But our economy is also rapidly diversifying globally. Workers believe in long hours and a strong work ethic. Especially in IT.
2) A commitment to bring "peace and prosperity" to the world. Only we tend to stay the course with the UN/NATO as opposed to unilaterally attacking sovereign nations. We too have a flair for intervening in global events.
3) Family values, with a more liberal twist. We also believe very strongly in our social safety net (universal health care, employment insurance, etc). This philosophy helps redistribute the wealth, keeping the middle class more stable.
4) A strong Information Technology sector. There are numerous technology companies that were founded or are based in Canada (ATI, EA, etc). Through NAFTA these companies have done very well in North America as a whole.
Despite all of these similarities, we have some distinct differences that we are proud of:
1) Productivity and skill are rewarded with higher salaries, while keeping the social safety net in mind. Yes, some small percentage of what we make go towards keeping those on welfare happy and fed, but the social programs also enable those who truly want to contribute. It puts them back on their feet. You can argue that this rarely happens here, but I see it regularly.
Unlike the concerns listed above regarding Europe - there is very little nepotism here. It's more about what you know, than who you know.
Therefore, you may see developers make 75% of what the same American developer will make. But if s/he's unemployed, or must help someone who is critically ill, he is able to utilize the programs available. This is part of "quality of life" and we're all about it.
2) Less partisan. Yes, people have tendencies towards conservatism or liberalism. But a bad leader will cause his party to lose leadership, irrespective of party affiliation.
Politicians who blatantly lie (i.e. we never said "stay the course") will be outed. Publically. It will literally be the topic for conversation for days. As opposed to being ignored by the media. The politicians here are scrutinized. There is more of a "participatory democracy" mentality.
3) A more "level" interaction. You will find that the class boundaries between upper, lower and middle class are more blurred. Canadians are less afraid of being mugged (or shot) by their fellow citizens. This is a property of the social safety net that helps to keep people from those extreme survival measures.
4) Biased media. There is definitely a slant on our media organizations, but this plays less of a role in the reporting. For instance, when the Liberals went through their corruption allegations last, there was not a single paper or news show in the country that did not cry bloody murder.
If you were to pick a spot to live in Canada, I would recommend Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal (the big 4).
If you are an IT worker, choose Ottawa, due to the more friendly attitude and because it is "Silicon Valley North". I currently work in Markham, near Toronto, and would recommend it as well.
I always have the option of moving three hours north to Vancouver BC - Canada - as I'm a dual citizen of both the US and Canada - and by birth, so is my son (since I'm Canadian).
But I live in a very Blue city in a Blue state. We have strong constitutional protections here to keep the fascists out of our private lives.
And, as a former Army Sergeant, I've never been one to back down from a fight for my rights.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
1. the Moon 2. the cost Having typed that, now I get to wait for the arbitrary time delay... ...is it time yet? I guess I'll find out.
Regular Meta Moderators are not more likely to get mod points.
Not only did a study in Madrid in 2000 show anti-carcinogenic properties of cannabis, but a similar project in Virginia which showed similar reults was squelched by the DEA under Reagan .
Only his tendency toward a dazed stupor prevented him from screaming aloud.
Compare a U.S. citizen to a Turkish citizen. Each makes (the equivalent of) $60000 per year. The American buys a BMW and takes out a 30 year mortgage on a big house. Because the average income in Turkey is lower, the Turk, with that same income, can pay off the mortgage on an equivalently large house in a few short years or could actually afford an entire small house with no mortgage at all. As a result, the Turk is considerably more free because he is not shackled with debt like the American is.
-Kurt
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Yep, like in Panama Canal. It is right at your doorstep, you can go anywhere else in the world, the culture is quite similar to USA culture and we are a dollarized economy riding a commercial boom right now. When you retire you get quite a lot of perks just for being retired (or older than 65).
The husband and I are already planning on going, and have narrowed it down to either Australia or Canada. We live quite close to BC, and love it, but have friends down under that really want us to go there. We are waiting for another year, as the husband is still attending college, and will be eligible to take his CPA exams upon graduation. If we go to Canada, which is more likely, it will take two years, that you must live outside the country, to complete the process. We both like larger cities, and are leaning towards Vancouver BC, as it's still close enough to his family in Washington state to get to in an emergency.
For us, it's just a countdown of time. After nursing in the US for years, it is obvious that time is running out for my husband and I to get health care coverage that is functional to us. That was part of my decision on the countries that we looked into. There are other countries that do offer socialized healthcare, but are not as easy for us to get to.
The things that influenced out decisions? Health care options, views on same sex couples (although a het couple, it's a good yardstick on the subject of tolerance and diversity.) and the view on poverty and drug use. We are also non drug users, but the 'War on Drugs' hasn't worked out to well here, and I don't want to go to a place where they are using public funds for the same behavior. I also don't like the idea of abandoning those that are unfortunate enough to find themselves in poverty, as we are all just one series of events from the same fate. As a nurse I have seen it.
So, we are going, as soon as the husband is out of school, and we get through the paperwork. We could go now, but with him in school, we can't afford the fees to start the process.
Nothing hides evidence like a stew. -Gus Pratt
I thought that leaving America might be for me too until I DID leave it. Fact is, you can't throw away everything that the United States has done all because of this current asshole administration.
It is still the greatest country on the planet....period......
I have been to 41 countries in my travels as a travel writer and if you live here and don't wake up every day happy you are here then you are seriously fucked up.
And Europe? . PLEASE......
The majority of conflicts that we've been involved in as a country in the last 100 years have been due to either...
A. Europe not getting along
B. Failed European colonial policy
Yeah yeah, Europe likes to talk like they're some kinda of different animal but they're not. Compare the EU in population and economic output to the US and they are pretty much the United States of Europe. They have envy issues because they used to be the center of power and the U.S. took it. (Much like the U.S. is going to feel when we have to welcome our new Chinese overlords)
I absolutely cannot stand this administration but the beauty of American is that the government DOES bend to the will of the people ultimately.
And Iraq? I would suggest Europe take a look at it's own colonial past before throwing stones. France and it's occupation of Algeria in particular.
If you don't like America bitches, then reclaim it.
To Paraphrase Winston Churchill...
America is the worst country in the world... Except for all of the other countries in the world.
And another gem from Churchill...
You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing... After they've tried everything else.
What my neighbor makes has no bearing on how free I am
Of course, this depends on how you define "freedom" which for you is apparently freedom to spend some money on a family trip or an extra garage.
How "free" are you to actually help your poor neighbor? What if he/she is disabled and has been denied health insurance? What if he/she is the victim of pollutants in the local water supply, which don't affect you and your bottled water? How free are _you_ to continue your gun-totin' ways if you lose your job/health insurance/house?
I love how you right-winger/libertarian/anti-Commie (what's up with the Commie label anyway? Can't handle a little political diversity?) types always define freedom as a _individual's_ right to do things. What you fail to see is that in life, everyone needs help at some time or another, and some need a lot more help than others. Your response would be to leave them to die, or mumble about letting the Church/their family help them out. Anything but god forbid yourself or society consider the welfare of their fellow citizen.
Fortunately for humanity there are other, less shortsighted people than yourself, and yes, there are societies unlike the US where they see through the selfishness. They're not perfect, but they are more _humane_.
At first glance, someone might assume that the taxes in a country like the UK were lower than in the US.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You see in the UK they have what is known as VAT, or Value Added Tax. Here in the US we call it sales tax. The VAT rate for the UK is 35%. Now some people will say I'm wrong and that the VAT is only 17.5%. Some people say this because that is what the government of the UK has told them. The official story over there is that when you buy something, you pay 17.5% VAT, and the seller pays the other 17.5% VAT. Well where does the seller get the money that he uses to pay that VAT? That's right, from YOU.
What makes it worse is that this VAT is charged for EVERYTHING including things like FOOD. There are a handful of token exemptions for things like sanitary napkins and baby clothes, but not for anything that would make a significant impact to a struggling family's finances. In addition to this the minimum tax bracket applies to EVERYONE. If you're struggling to get by on minimum wage, you still have to pay income tax. I don't remember what the rate is, but its not low. My wife could tell you and I'll probably ask her and come back here with the answer.
For the sake of argument lets assume that the lowest income tax bracket is 20%. This means that 55% of the income of someone who scubs toilets for a living is being paid to the government. This is what is known as regressive taxation.
The result of this is that in the UK, at least where my wife is from (Stoke on Trent), the average person will work anywhere from 60 to 80 hours a week just to make ends meet. The prices are high, the wages are low, and the taxes are eating everyone alive.
What are these taxes going towards? Welfare money for people who won't work, and to prop up a socialized medicine program that is broken and on the verge of collapse. A lot of the laws and state policies in the UK are perfect examples of what NOT to do. People complain here in the US about illegal aliens invading the country and causing problems. Well those who complain should count their blessings. About the worst you can say about illegals here is that they MIGHT bring the root causes of Mexico's socioeconomic malaise with them when they move here. Illegal aliens in the UK bring islamic terrorism with them. The UK has become Al Qaeda's number one target, in no small part because of how many current and future terrorists have poured into the country. What attracts them to the UK? Illegal aliens there are allowed to sign up for the dole, especially if they're from the middle east. The idea being that refusal to pay non-citizens for not working is "racist." The stuff that goes on over there is nothing less than kafkaesque.
So while the top INCOME TAX bracket in the UK may be slightly lower than in the US, that does NOT tell the whole story at all. You have to look at the whole picture. When you do you'll find that while the US is not a perfect place, it is so much better than just about everywhere else that leaving here is patently insane.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
1) Australia.
1a) Wander aimlessly around mid-Eastern Europs, not really living anywhere.
2) School.
2a) Money.
2b) Citizenship. (which I can get in Oz, just haven't filled out the paperwork.)
Reeses
I've been curious about leaving the US as well, but am not sure it's a viable option in my situation. I have a health condition that unfortunately requires fairly expensive treatments at the moment. My condition is nothing debilitating, I am perfectly capable of working any type of job, but the treatments keep me healthy. If I moved to another country, my concern would be maintaining the ability to receive the treatments. I know healthcare varies by country, but realistically could I move to another country without interruption of my treatments? i.e. is it possible to move and immediately receive healthcare coverage (via a job or government provided) without some sort of transition period?
don't feel the need to sleep with guns in the drawer, or shoot their classmates.
...
Unless they're Canadian
If I ever leave the U.S., I'm moving to Texas.
But seriously, the U.S. is huge and diverse. Maybe a move to a different state would be easier and have just as good a return as a move to another country.
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
Christianity is based on love
And slaughter. And ritual blood sacrifice. And slavery -- including the practice of keeping sex slaves called "concubines".
Read the tenth commandment again; you know, the one where "God" claims a wife is a husband's property, just like his cattle or his mules. Read about how a slave owner could beat his slaves to death; and would only have to pay a fine if the slave died within 48 hours of the beating.
Read again where Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword".
He also said not only supported, but had been heaven-sent to fulfill all the policies of the Old Testament; you know, like slavery, and the slaughter/enslavement of non-believers.
Christianity is based on love in the same way that vegetarianism is based on vegtables.
I worked for the State Dept (Marine Corps Security Guard Program) at US Embassies and most of what the parent said is right on. Just make sure you are the kind of person who will like living in the local economy. I met too many State personnel who would never leave their little island of America and missed out on tons of unique experiences and always bitched about what they were missing from the US. I almost went the same route at my first post until I met a really cool Finnish woman (this was in Pakistan) who showed me that there was a ton of stuff to do if you would just get off your ass and go look for it.
And about the housing, here is how one State person described it to us before we went overseas:
"Take a country that has an extremely rich upper class, no middle class, and a large lower class. So you have really nice neigborhoods with large houses where everyone has a house staff, and then you have the slums. Where do you think the State Dept is going buy housing for the US staff?"
We had 12 Marines in one house in Peru and did not at all feel crowded. If you have kids, you will most likely get at least one bedroom per child, and in most places you will be posted you can easily afford a house staff (cleaning, laundry, cooking) to free up a lot of your time. Now some places are unique, such as Beijing or Hong Kong (I forget which) where the embassy basically rents out floors of apartment buildings (NICE apartments, but still apartments) and houses all of the staff there.
"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live." - Mark Twain, "Taming the Bicycle"
They still have the same average spending power, which means that no one is "poorer" for their lack of resources. But they're happy, and together, they've built something: a society, where people feel wanted and protected and cared for, so that they don't feel the need to sleep with guns in the drawer, or shoot their classmates.
Interesting fantasy world. In the socialist country that I live, we have a significant percentage (probably 25%) of the population who basically choose to do nothing, instead leaching off the rest of society, who in turn feel increasingly resentful of the money being stolen from them to support the leeches.
Oh, and every few weeks the leeches go out and protest that we aren't giving them enough for doing nothing.
And all the while, everyone's standard of living continues to slip.
I'm waiting for IND to approve my KM app. (4 months, so far) I'm in Amsterdam ZO also, how do those free Dutch lessons work?
Why not?
Two Words:
Metric System
Sounds like we all need to get together and kick the SSA beauracray in the backside to fix this. What exactly happened to your SSA record?
Yes, I can. Earning more does not significantly increase your need for health care, state education, etc., yet socialist policies require you to contribute progressively more to public works the more you earn. The reason, like I said, is that the philosophy behind socialism places more weight on the side of socioeconomic safety for all than socioeconomic freedom.
As for whether or not this translates into better circumstances in reality, take my personal situation as an anecdote. Neither of my parents holds a degree, and neither have ever held a job that paid higher than 150% of the minimum wage, despite the fact that my father has kept the same job for nearly 20 years. We live in a very poor area, and my HS was rated among the worst in the state—and rightly so. I'm currently earning my degree through a scholarship to Harvard. I'm taking some time off from school to help manage the family expenses, and can put far more of the $2000/week that I'm earning as an IT/resource management contractor to paying off family loans than I would have been able to in a more socialist country.
On the other hand, I had to study until 3am basically every night for the last 3 years of high school to make up for the non-education I was receiving from the state, and I regularly work 14 hour days right now. It's definitely not easy, and perhaps I should just kick back and relax a bit more like some of my friends, but at least here I have the option to work hard and see real returns.
I don't believe socialism to be evil—or even wrong—to be honest, it's just that as one of those people who are willing to work hard, I prefer to see proportional compensation for my efforts.
Think of the two hundred plus years of struggle. First for our independence, then for our union. The struggle for emancipation, civil rights, sufferage....
The memory of those who gave their lifes for your prosperity today should make you ashamed that you are talking about leaving it when the going gets tough. As miserable as this administration is, it is a hang nail compaired to the cancer of institutionalized bigotry and hatred that is segregation, and late night lynchings.
You aren't being asked to stand up to men with hoods and nooses. You aren't being asked to put on a uniform and fight your countrymen in an age where field dressings lead to gangrene, and anesthetic doesn't exist. You are being asked to organize, speak out, and talk back. Donate your time and money to candidates who represent you and your progressive interests.
I am a US Army Ranger who firmly believes it takes just as much courage to stand and protest when your community is against you, or when there is a chance you will be jailed for your convictions as it takes to pick up a firearm and enter a battlefield. Cindy Sheehan is just as much a patriot as Pat Tillden. Silence and escaping to foriegn soil is cowardace.
1) He is a liberal leftist freedom-hating jihad-supporting communist who thinks the US is "too religious" or "too capitalist" or some nonsense like that, in which case I say good ridddance, America already has too many people like you, and you don't contribute anything to make this a better country anyway.
2) He is especially lazy and doesn't like to work, in which case he will probably have a better life in some welfare state like Sweden. In this case I also say good riddance. The US is a great place to live if you are hardworking, but welfare and other type of social services are not as easy to get as in some other countries, so the lazy would be better off someplace else.
3) He is neither of the above, but is seriously naive and honestly believes that he will have a better life in some other place, in which case I hope he comes to his senses before he makes this terrible decision, because he'll regret it.
I moved to the US from Canada to get the benefits of lower taxes and greater personal freedom (ie the right to bear arms) and would never want to live anywhere else. Sure there are less government-funded services than in Canada, but for someone who very rarely uses them anyways (I haven't seen a doctor in years), I am willing to sacrifice them if it means I get to keep a significantly larger portion of my income.
The United States entry should be 36.9%. The top tax rate is 35%, and SS contributions are 7.65%. But once you exceed the social security max at $90,000, you only pay into Medicare at 1.9% (there is no max for Medicare) That 42.6% figure was calculated by adding the top tax rate to the SS contribution rate. I guess someone who didn't know there was a limit compiled that.
The net result is that $89,999.99 has a higher marginal rate than $90,000 and above. State income taxes may change this, for states that charge income tax.
One can of course argue that the other half of the SS tax that businesses pay is really a tax on the individual (if they eliminated it and made you pay it, you'd (hopefully) get a 7.65% raise and just have more withheld. I guess they do that to hide just how much SS & Medicare costs us. So make my 36.9% figure 38.8% if you want to be fair. But realize that your marginal tax is over 50% in most states until you max out your SS contributions!!
LOL. Why is this flamebait? Not like most Yanks would know (Wish I could find a link to the video on YouTube with the Yanks identifying Australia as France...).
Oh, you must be talking about this little gem. There is another good one, too.
See ya. have fun.
Switzerland! A. They have a direct democracy. So I wouldn't have to worry about which person was elected president. B. Economy is within the top 10 of the world. C. No laws against sharing anything on the Internet *cough*RI*MP*AA*cough*. D. Always neutral! Never picks sides. :)
I'd love to move my family to Canada. From what I can tell from watching the news, Canada is much more civilized than America, and America is becoming worse every day. The only thing stopping me is employment for my wife and myself. If I could be assured of finding work, I'd leave tomorrow.
Simply because there is no government to be found. By mear technicality it wouldn't be hard to see if a few larger companies started moving in the entire country could be the corperate morass of my dreams. /likes Jennifer Government //Dave Berry is a bad writer
Well, I used to think I wanted to move to Germany... but since I've started paying attention to their laws and government, I'm not sure it'd be a huge improvement (although they do lead a more laid-back lifestyle, and I like that). From what I understand, the Netherlands have a nice government with decent laws. Haven't really looked into that.
What keeps me from moving there? Lack of a job, lack of a house, moving expenses, inability to sell my current houses in this horrible economy, and I'd miss my friends.
Canada would do away with most of these issues... I'm a half hour drive from the border... I'd be able to keep my friends and my job, and moving expenses would be negligible, but there's still the matter of two unsaleable houses (one I've been trying to sell for 5 years now), and buying a new house. And Canada is better in some ways, but worse in others.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Nice thought, but incorrect.
First of all, not everyone CAN have lots of spare money in a capitalist model. To put it bluntly, the "have mosts" who control and direct the capitalist markets are largely unwilling to part with their own money, so any increase in spare money (ie, wage increases) to the "have leasts" is turned into price increases (inflation) that is paid for by the "have somes" (ie, the middle class). What this induces is a state in which the upper levels of the "have somes" scramble to join the "have mosts" ranks in order to escape the situation, while the bottom and middle sections of the "have somes" slowly drop off into the "have leasts" because of these inflated prices. The capitalist system is designed to allow some mobility between the stratas, but was designed to ensure there would ALWAYS be stratas, and that the lower strata would likely never live a much better life than they already do.
Which is why, despite what some may think, "Capitalism" is a system of economy, NOT a system of government.
--- I'm going sane in a crazy world.
Bah. Every self-respecting Kiwi knows that the houses aren't insulated because:
* If you get cold, you're "soft".
* You should be out working on the farm, anyway.
But seriously, we just re-did our kids room and there was drywall and then exterior weatherboards. Most (pre 90's) houses have insulation in the ceiling, just not the walls or underfloor. Modern houses have good insulation, which introduces other problems that the contractors down under aren't too experienced with though.
I can't fathom why there's none - it's not like it just started getting wet + cold last year...
Actually, many us who live in the American West consider being far away from everything one of greatest advantages. "Nowhere" (near-wilderness) is 5 to 15 minutes away.
Try to find that in Manhattan.
I'm an American who has traveled through a LOT of countries. Drank, ate, and had a goodtime with the locals just about everywhere. I'm not your typical 'Yank' as I can wear many different skins and blend in with the surroundings quite easily. But those are stories for another time....
Like it or not, generally this is what's happening:
A)If you wanna make money, there is no place in the world like the USA. Far and away, this is the place to be for business and capitalism. People say India and China will take us in that aspect...hmmmmm... Anyway, if you want opportunity and have even a tiny bit of entrepreneurial spirit, the US is your place. If you do the work and play it right, you can get whatever money and success you are looking for here. Might take a little while, but it CAN be done easier here than anywhere else in the world from what I can see.
B)If you wanna have fun, go elsewhere, especially Europe. The US isn't even in the top 30. Nightlife, goodtimes, adventures: this place is pathetic. Ya, I can hear you 'but what about LA, what about NYC'...puhhlease. Maybe there was a time when these fabled locations were decent (Note to fellow Americans: we had 1 1969, the rest of the world never left that year), but living in a Police State doesn't do much for excitement. Then again, a country founded on religious principals shouldn't be expected to be that wild to begin with.
Overall, it just depends on what you are looking for. I like going abroad for my fun. But I'm also glad to have US citizenship for the overwhelming business opportunities.
I was american. I did emigrate. (to Switzerland) I love it here am I am not going back. Not that we don't have our problems but it is definatly greener over here.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Jesus Christ, are you serious? Talk about being part of the problem, and not the solution. Do you see no danger in this labelling of everyone who doesn't think like you as "freedom-hating", "communist", etc.? Have you ever heard of Senator McCarthy? In the end, do you really think there's any significant difference between your extremist position and that of a jihadist who wants to blow up your city? Actually, there is a difference: you're talking about your fellow countrymen as though they're the enemy - in fact, you're directly identifying them with who you perceive as your enemy. There's a serious problem with that, and it's located inside your head.
1) Japan
2) I'm allready in the process of moving there.
3) Hey, I lose jury by trial and a few other things, but at least the government is slightly more honest.
This one is an apparent no brainer:
Quebec
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
A Sala'am Alakim.
Thank you for one of the most human, inspirational and poignent posts on slashdot ever and for pointing out in this crazy world that we know nothing from the rubbish that pretends to be news and that is is possible to find peace. Good for you. I'm impressed.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Be fine with me if those folks actually put their money and lives where their mouths are. I say leave as soon as possible. Hurry! Of course, there ARE some issues (aren't there always? Damn!)
1. In most places taxes are higher, like WAY higher.
2. Umm, you'll very likely have to learn a new language. Until you do, fluently, your job opportunities will likely be limited. And you'll be made fun of, at best, while you're struggling through it.
3. Discrimination? You better believe it. "Equality of opportunity" is not always in the vocabulary.
4. Wanna pack? Forget it. You'll be lucky to get mace.
5. Crime? Pick any city. Petty crime is rampant. Watch your wallet!
6. Drugs? Lots, and more openly. Think Denmark.
7. Homeless? The deal is, get a baby, stake out your place, and beg what you don't steal. Enough of this 'bearded man with a dog, God bless.' Let's get serious. Best Place? Rome.
8. Arrogance? You think Americans are arrogant?????? You've never been abroad.
9. Big Brother? Will meet you as you step off the plane.
10. Employment? See #2, and that's just the first hurdle. Who wants to hire an American? Are you a citizen? No? Are you eligible to become one? How long does it take? What if they say "No!"?
11. Bureaucracy? Let's just say the EU is not a threat to anybody. They are way too busy deciding who can sell snails under what name and measuring for the corner office of the sub sub sub Director for carpet cleaning specifications.
12. Immigration? There ain't no border patrol, Bucky! And the suburbs of Paris? It's not like Broadmoor. Count the burned out cars abandoned on the streets to find out where you are.
13. Kind gentle people? Been to a football game in England lately?
So hey, if you want to leave, go. Enough bitching. Just do it.
Canada. Of course, that assumes Harper doesn't end up doing too much damage.
Why not move there? Immigration really looks difficult. I don't have any of the special skills where they just sort of shoo you in at the border. And nobody has offered to sponsor me. Feh. I'm moving far away in December, anyway.
Actually, Denmark is the happiest place to live with the happiest people so bollocks to Ireland at #11.
The Economist begs to differ...
Germans might not laugh very much, or smile very much at that, but it doesn't mean they don't have a sense of humour. They laugh at the fact that so many people in Ireland died of starvation during the "potato famine" of 1845-1849 when Ireland is completely surrounded by water. All they had to do was go fishing.
See what I mean? Not so much as a chicken crossing the road in there. Sigh.
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
Indeed, Ireland changes its immigration laws (in fact all of its laws) almost as often as it rains here. The current mood is isolationism, even though immigration, tax amnesty lured multinationals and international trade created the celtic tiger in the first place.
Despite what the Irish believe, Ireland is a beautiful, prosperous place where people enjoy life without as much government interference as you'd have in the U.S., France or ex Soviet states. Here are some pluses and minuses:
The amount of vacation is the least in the E.U., but is still several times what you'd have in the U.S.
The personal tax rate averages about 8% more than the U.S.
Driving is expensive, intense, and dangerous similar to what you'd see in New York City, Rome, Paris, and yet other aspects of life are more relaxed than in the U.S.
Do your own research before buying property, Ireland is propsperous but methinks not prosperous enough to maintain this bubble. Prices are higher than most of the major cities of the world and nearly all of the United States.
IT isn't growing as fast as it was, it may be decreasing, the construction boom (associated with the property boom/bubble) is taking up the slack... for the time being.
The people are generally very friendly, but I see a growing level of racism and anti immigrant sentiment.
Considering the prosperity, high tax rate and extremely high take by the government, the infrastructure is terrible. Roads are narrow and dangerous, public transportation service in much of the developing world is better. The public health care system has disimproved since Ireland was the one of the poorest countries in the E.U.
Law enforcement is weak.
There isn't a clean separation between church and state. When you are choosing a school, a prime consideration is whether you are protestant or Catholic, with the implication that others needn't apply.
Speech isn't quite as free as in the U.S. A political figure or wealthy famous person can sue you for libel or slander quite easily.
The cost of living is extremely high compared to wages.
And yet, I choose to live here because you don't have to drive a car everywhere, villages are self-sufficient, people are generally very well educated and have good intentions, jobs are available.
It's sort of like where I live but cleaner, the landscape is more majestic, and the history is amazing. A castle on every hill.
What's stopping me is kids and family.
Alright, I didn't see this thread till it hit 1500, but maybe someone will see this:
If 1% of the people who joked about moving to Canada after the last election instead moved to, say, Florida and Ohio, we could fix this whole mess.
I don't intend to leave, and if you're thinking of leaving, please don't. There's still a chance to improve the situation. If everyone who dislikes the state of the country leaves, then there really will be no one left to keep the most powerful military in the world (for now :-P) from doing whatever an unstable pseudo-fundamentalist leader wants. As depressing as it seems, the presence of even a small opposition is still keeping Bush from doing a lot of things...
I am the man with no sig!
I want to create anti-Islamic cartoons!
If anything - take an evening with The Notebooks of Lazarus Long and come back later.
And you may have to know the system well in order to also know how to circumvent it's flaws so moving to another country may not serve you.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
After not leaving the ol' US of A at all for the first 33 years of my life, in the last 24 months, I've spent time (not in the airport) in Beijing, Kampala, London, Mexico City, Meppel, Montreal, Nairobi, New Delhi, Paris, Rome, and Vienna. I'll add Dundee to that list in a few days.
With few exceptions, all those places have everything I need. New Delhi's air quality isn't good enough for me to live there for more than about a week. Beijing's is better, but it might still be an issue long-term, although the Chinese government plans to spend huge amounts of money on improving the environment leading up to the 2008 olympics, which could put it back in the running. Mexico City's is better than Beijing's, but still a little smoggy.
If I had to pick a single one off the list, it'd probably be Kampala. The climate is very close to that of Hawaii, people there are friendly, and we're nearing the point where Malaria vaccines will become available. Plus, the currency is devalued, banks pay double-digit interest rates, and anyone with IT skills can probably scrounge telecommuting work that pays amounts the average Ugandan would be shocked at. One can live on about $7000 a year there, so you can imagine what a western paycheck would get you.
If I wanted seasons, Rome or Meppel or maybe even Dundee might be nice... and Beijing favorably impressed me when I was there, too.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
See here's the problem: You seem to want a country that enforces YOUR viewpoint on everyone. When you say you are interested in a country that has Shari'a Law, you seem to mean that you want it as you understand and would choose to practise it. That's understandable, but the problem is that barring you running the show, you aren't going to find a place that everyone agrees with your views. I'm not an Islamic scholar and I can't claim to understand all the intricate differences but even my cursory level of research has revealed some major differences in opinion as to what Shari'a Law ought to encompass and how it ought to be enforced.
So, if you want to live your life according to the beliefs you have, the best bet for that is a nation that is tolerant of all beliefs. While they won't force others to conform to what you believe is right, they won't tend for force you to conform to what they think is right.
There's really no paradox here. If you go to a country like Iran that's run by Ayatollah, well you get THEIR version of Islam which might not mesh with your own. You also tend to run in to the whole "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," thing. If you go to a country like this US that's very free you are going to see all kinds of people doing all kinds of things you don't like, but they aren't going to tell you that you have to join in for the most part.
It's like that line in the song "My Strange Nation": "I will not change this stance/I will not move to France".
That's by Susan Werner, by the way, and it's highly recommended: http://www.susanwerner.com/ (warning: flash site... their non-flash alternative is broken).
I would go to Brazil, Belo Horizonte is a major tech city. Beautiful place, people and culture...
I wish I was clever!
I am tired of all the empty threats (promises) to leave the US. Get the F out! What we need is constructive criticism - not girly-man, usually liberal, bitches complaining left and right that the government isn't giving them enough money or taking care of personal issues. A "man" wouldn't succumb to the humiliation of government assistance unless circumstance were dire. Look around Americans: there is practically nothing dire about our lives. We live like kings compared to most of the world.
...Bitches in every aspect of the word.
Just like everything else, they never take action. Never leave.
Odd... not sure where you get your information. We have brought over Marmite (from UK) and Vegemite (from Oz), declared it, no problem, et. al. Also, you can run down to any Whole Foods grocery store and purchase both - in their original folaticious formats.
You might want to take a bit of caution when applying for this kind of work. I speak of this from first-hand experience.
Dealing with classified information is very high risk from a personal standpoint. The penalties of a security breach due to personal negligence is *very* harsh. And by the job description, you'll be up to your ears in it.
Also, an Information Management position isn't strictly IT work. It's a hybrid position consisting of both IT work and your rather mundane office-assistant paperwork shuffler.
Government employment has very nice benefits, and provides a very stable work environment. However, keep in mind that whenever you work with classified information there is a lot of risk/stress involved.
Actually, as a native-american + african + white Portuguese + white Italian person, I can say that my ancestors were probably those who where displaced from time to time.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Do not go to Norway if you have any ambitions.
Norway is a horrible place to live if you want to have a career and be successful. It is great if you want to sit on your ass and collect benefits. The system is totally screwed up there - it rewards the lazy non producers and punishes any hint of success.
It is a horrendously expensive place to live. Cars are incredibly expensive. Even a beer costs you about $9. I lived there for several years before moving to the United States. I am *very* happy here now. Sure, there are people with no insurance, but if you are a professional and have skills/talents, you will prosper here like no where else.
In Norway, on top of incredible income taxes, you also essentially pay a 25% sales tax (well, technically it is VAT but the effect is the same for the consumer).
On top of it, the government services, such as medical, are not really as good as Norwegians would have you believe (not their fault, most have never lived anywhere else). There are long waiting lists for specialists, and even if you go for a regular checkup at the doctor, it is over in 5 minutes. They don't even check your blood pressure or anything. And, there is no dental coverage if you are over 18 (it might be 21, I do not remember). Here in the USA, I have full medical, dental, and vision insurance. I pay nothing to go to the dentist or for a vision exam. A visit to the doctor for a checkup costs me $15 (~90 NOK).
The people are nice there. It is a fun city. But the country has a serious problem with its social system. You can more or less decide for yourself that "you know what? Working isnt for me, I would rather stay home and drink beer" and the government will basically pay for your apartment, and give you money each month - even though you are perfectly capable of working.
If you like working for below average salaries, and then giving over half to the government in the form of taxes so they can give it to lazy bums, then Norway is the place for you.
There are many people (veterans, DoD employees) who have sworn to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign. Hard to do that from another country.
1) Japan, no brainer. I went there on vacation earlier in the year and to say I was impressed is an understatement. The politness there was just astonishing. People didn't just point you in the right direction, there were a few times where someone would actually walk with us a couple blocks to where we can actually see where we had to go. The public transit system for the areas we were in (from Tokyo down to Hiroshima) was amazaing. Even in what seemed like rural towns you could get anywhere by just knowing where the nearest train station or bus station is. And akihabara
2) Language barrier, although if I really studied it for a few years I could have good enough conversational skills that I could get a job there. Although I do see IT jobs over there, they all require conversational japanese proficiency, both written and verbal. Also Japanese are not very accepting of foreigners. Yes, I mentioned above they're extremely polite, so polite they won't insult you to your face, but may mention it later. Getting a decent place to live can be difficult as well as there isn't any "equal opportunity" rights there. If you're not Asian, don't know Japanese enough, or the rentor is having a bad day, they don't have to rent a place to you, deal with it. About the only ways that you could live in Japan are a) sponsorship from a business in Japan (possible, but good luck), b) marry someone with japanese citizenship (any hot ladies out there with japanese citizenship feel free to contact me), or c) enroll in one the teaching programs, but that isn't a permanent thing (unless you achieve method b while teaching over there).
So yeah, while it would be great if I could live there, I'm not too hopeful about it. Although who knows what could happen.
Are they high-skilled, or are they like the unskilled, poorly integrated Mexicans in America? See a parallel?
I say let the neo-cons and the evangelicals leave. They hate our freedoms, they want a religous oligarchy, let them move to pakastan.
Personally, I want to move to Iceland. It's small and beautiful. The only thing that I am aware of that pisses me off about the country is the whaling. I'll be visiting this summer to get the full experience. I'm currently a student at an American university so I won't be moving for some time now, but it should be a nice visit.
Thanks for your post. You have encapsulated my beliefs entirely.
By your mentioning "The Tower" so prominiently I can deduce that you are probably
British? Am I right?
Well, if you lived in Mexico, you would not need to fear deportation. And if you like to live in US, just find a company that will sponsor you a work visa. Don't complain that it is uncomfortable to do something illegal, it is supposed to be. Mind you that in this instance the question of weather the immigration laws are reasonable is not relevant, the laws are what they are and you are breaking them.
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
I don't like how America has been headed for the past 6-7 years either. I don't like this government and I don't like our media. I don't like most of the TV watching drone population and I don't like our rampant consumer whorism.
That said, if you pussies want to give up on this country then fuck you very much and get the fuck out.
If your city is full of bible thumping conservatives and you want to go live among your own kind TRY A NEW CITY! You'd be suprised at how different cities in this country are. The majority of people in this country live and die less than 40 miles away from their birthplace. Yea, that's really getting the full American experience.
Move around. Here is a suggestion: Austin, TX: My current home town. Very liberal and wacky. Lots of intelligent folks. Very active and health conscience town. Fair share of hippies and potheads (if that's your kind of thing). Lots of good disc golf. The night life (my favorite part) is fair. I DJ electronica so I'm kind of annoyed by Austin's overall music scene (people like to just sit down and play guitar badly) but that's my problem. I actually prefer going to Dallas for nightlife, but that's just me. The cost of living here is fan-freaking-tastic. Your dollar goes a long way here. Austin is a lot like San Fran only much cheaper, less stuck up, but way hotter in the summer. The Weather here rocks during the fall and winter and some of the spring. It absolutely sucks balls during the summer unless you love heat.
Don't give up on this country just yet. Move around, find a better place to live, and help change this country back into something good.
The question isn't "where would you go, if you got too mad at America?" the question is "Why are you mad at America?"
:)
If you hate Don Rumsfeld, but can't state why, you're programmed.
If you remember the Clinton years fondly, but you can't remember which of his policies was so good, you might be programmed.
If you think America has a long history of torture and taking over distant countries, you're programmed.
If you despise Fox News, but haven't watched more than seconds of it this year, yep...programmed.
If you think Rush Limbaugh is a bigoted fat man, you're both programmed AND bigoted; he's lost 100+ pounds...about 5-10 years ago.
During the Clinton Administration, we hit (I think it was) 11,000 on the Dow. Unemployment was low like now, and the ABC (and most other legacy networks) touted this as a superb thing- tantamount to throwing a parade. The other day when it hit 12,000 only one of these networks mentioned it, and they couched it as "While the economy is doomed, the stock market hit a new high today". (Yeah, paraphrased.)
The point is, if you don't pay any attention to the actual news, you're gonna get programmed. Listening to the old-world media is a guaranteed lock on this, and feeling depressed.
The Democrats, favored incredibly by the legacy media, need the economy to look bad, the war to go horribly, etc to regain office. So despite and almost duplicate of the glory years of Clinton is sold to us as doom-and-gloom. The economy is every bit as good as it was under Clinton, and this war is loosing about the same number of men if they had stayed home (about 1200/year accordin the Pentagon). It's no disaster- it's just taking longer than we want.
Democrats aren't just bad at foreign policy- they're deadly at it. Hammas was catapulted to what it is now because President Carter **begged** the terrorists to return our people when they were captured by Iran.
Clinton (and Albright) wanted to quiet North Korea, keeping them from doing anything nuclear during his shift, so they GAVE them two nuclear reactors, a bunch of money AND the promise that we wouldn't go checking on them for five years. So they put Il in the dark with a nuclear erector-set. Now they claim that not talking with them is stupid.
Think I'm just a right-wing wacko? Look these up. If you don't, don't bother leaving the USA; you'll get ticked wherever you go, because you don't pay attention. If you do, you might just be surprised how much information you're missing.
Do you think Limbaugh (for example) manages to have such huge audiences, merely by lying about the Liberals/Democrats? Of course not. So why not listen for yourself and hear the information he cites; he's rarely wrong, unless it's about computers.
In short, if you hate America...you're not paying attention. Please do, and shut up.
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Your doubt is misplaced. I did exactly what you described and now live in an excellent neighborhood and have much better health care than I did before.
"I heard a lecture by an economist at Rice University (I forget his name), and he claimed that if we stopped our War on Drugs, the price of a hit of crack would drop to about the price of a couple of aspirin. (His argument was that with costs so small, violence and theft would not be worth the risks.)"
Hmm. If this is true? Then Wal-Mart is doing the US a favour by lowering the costs of all goods. Burglary and Theft should drop.
I did computer security for one of the best clubs in San Francisco. We had city supervisors and official from the Department of Public Health visit our club to see a model of how it should be done right. We also had a federally funded critical care hospital contract with us to deliver cannabis to their AIDS patients. We gave away free food, had free counselling services and support groups for people with HIV, cancer, and hep-c as well as groups for people trying to get off harder drugs.
We taught harm reduction techniques, and in fact everyone that worked there had to take a class in harm reduction. Everything Mr. Slippery is saying is true. Smoking is the problem, not cannabis. We sold many varieties of baked goods and tinctures. We also sold several brands of vaporizers, and every new member was told of the dangers and options during their hour long orientation.
You can not smoke enough cannabis to kill yourself. You would pass out first. You would have to eat several kilos of high grade hash to do the job. Cannabis is mildly physically addicting, having withdrawal symptoms ranging in severity from coffee withdrawal to nicotine withdrawal (only without the intense cravings.)
The main danger of cannabis is demotivation, which generally only happens with people who smoke it to escape anyway. People who smoke it as a medicine for pain or appetite stimulation do not generally suffer from amotivational syndrome. But if you are smoking pot as an escape, as with any other escapist behavior, a lot of life can pass you by while you are engaging in that behavior.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
This is just useless whining, like the child who threatens to run away from home. Do they really mean it? In most cases no, it's just a plea for attention or change of behaviour. I recall around Bill Clinton's election, a lot of these comments. But they died off after a few months when people came to their senses and realized:
1) They were just being whiny babies and not serious about their threat
2) Somehow the republic survives whatever dolt is in office.
This process repeated itself when Bush came into office. I expect many of the same comments when Bush is replaced with a Democrat. The best thing you can do is ignore these comments just like you do with a child. Pat them on the head and help them pack their things and watch them decide to stay.
Definitely Vancouver BC.
However, the 3 problems are 1) getting a job, 2) finding affordable housing, and 3) getting permanent residency.
If I could solve those, whoosh.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I've had a few friends who have moved to Australia and encountered this attitude about central heating as well. While the fact that it's not standards there is a bit odd by American standards, the notional that they'll be cold is. I have my thermostat set between 55 and 60 degrees most of the winter. I'm comfortable at that temperature in pants and a tee-shirt, when you consider that it's well below freezing outside on any given day during a New England winter, it's positively balmy indoors. I know you acclimatize after a while, but I can't imagine ever thinking 50-55 degree weather is cold. I don't own an AC either. What with the average summer day here being around 86 F it's just never seemed a necessity.
Sounds like you and you're hubby plan to use the "System" to it's utmost and then once you have great skills (Husbands CPA your nursing Cert) and the ability to actually make and influence things. You plan to bail. Wow, that's great. Are you still planning to pay for those student loans once you leave? If you are so concerned about poverty and the like, have you every considered joining an NPO and helping those in need? Is it that you are just accustomed to the "Culture of Complaint". i.e. Offering a whole lot of complaints and not a single solution. Rather than, GASP! Actually doing something about it. This is a country of "Doers" not "Complainers". So, Bon Voyage! Don't let the door hit you in the backside.
That's like saying calling a pipe bomb a bomb takes away the relevance of calling a nuclear bomb a bomb. Some addictions are chemical dependencies, some are not. Some are easier to control than others. You tend to gravitate towards situations that you enjoy. If you can't control yourself it becomes an addiction.
addiction (-dk'shn) pronunciation
n.
1.
1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction.
2. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions.
2.
1. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or involved in something.
2. An instance of this: had an addiction for fast cars.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
It's "jacking on", not "jacking in".
Damn young'ns screwing up the Futurama references...
*mumbles something about blackjack and hookers*
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
I would move to California. There are two of them, after all.
Yea, cuz we got...uh...we have...er...well, our Tigers beat the Yankees!
My parents moved to the US when I was about 7. I really don't like the US, not because of anything other than the American culture. It's too materialistic - too xenophobic -- too fast-paced -- too uninteresting. I've been thinking about moving back for the last 6 years of my life but the following are the main things holding me back. 1) Not sure how I would support myself without starting my own software consulting firm 2) The murder rate continues to spiral out of control thanks to US and Cuban intervention in the 70s that resulted in a flood of guns entering the country. An ample supply of guns in the wrong hands resulted in the establishment of neighbourhood mafia dons and drug gangs. Looking at things from that stand-point, I realise that sometimes it's best to live within the strongest, evilest, baddest country around. That way you can live without having to worry about instability from outside invaders and meddlers in your country's affairs. Afterall, the country that does the most meddling and mayhem is the country you live in! Sad isn't it.
I don't think Hippie means what you think it means.
"Wrong" in what sense? Are you saying it's wrong in the sense that it's not really like that? Are you saying that it's wrong in the sense that only a few greedy moral reprobates would begrudge someone additional wealth?
Either way, you're the one who is wrong. By defending this idealized notion of how people ought to feel under a capitalistic system, you're simply illustrating the naivete of some of your cherished free market principles.
A rather famous poll of a group of Harvard students asked whether the students would prefer to live in a town where they made $100K and everyone else made $200K, or a town where they made $50K and everyone else made $25K. Roughly 77% responded that they'd prefer the latter situation. If you consider this fact tantamount to saying, "77% of Harvard students are idiots," then maybe your economic theories aren't taking human nature into account.
For better or worse, we are tribal creatures. For millions of years, our ancestors have fought for the position of top monkey. The top monkey got the best food, got to mate with the top girl monkeys, and eventually left descendants who were happier being top monkeys themselves. Thus, we are acutely aware of our position relative to other monkeys, and desperately seeking to improve it. To deny that, and insist against all reason and all evidence that we should evaluate our happiness and our material comforts in a vacuum, is absurd.
Allow me to make the case for the correctness of the "Idiot Harvard" position. If you choose the $100K salary, you're going to be able to buy more stuff. According to the homo economicus theory, this should make you happier. But all around you you'll be seeing people owning and doing things that are beyond your resources. You'll send your children to a school where everyone has the latest clothes, where every child lives in a house with a pool (except yours), etc. When they come home, they'll have questions about why they can't have as nice of possessions as the other kids. When it comes time for your kids to compete with all the other kids for a place at the most prestigious universities, guess who can afford the better tutors? Hint: Not you.
In short, if you choose to live in the first town, you'll get the benefit of looking your surroundings and thinking, "My life is pretty good." If you choose the second town, you'll look at your surroundings and fight down the feeling that you should have a lot more.
"Relative freedom" is nothing more and nothing less than the perceived ability to fulfill your own desires. If you live in a society where your desires are being constantly inflated by the perception that everyone is living better than you, then you're not going to feel terribly free. Adam Smith himself recognized that many of your needs are dictated by your social surroundings. He defined the necessities of life as those things which were necessary for being a "respectable member of society", not just the things that delay your physical death. His own example: If no respectable person would ever be seen in public wearing a dirty shirt, then having a clean shirt is a necessity.
Contrary to your argument, this isn't saying that happiness is tied to materialism, per se. It's saying that a person's perceived happiness is strongly correlated to his perceived place in society. The fact that so much of our perceived place is tied to material consumption is regrettable, but strongly encouraged by the free market crowd.
Which brings me to my next point, which I'll call "social pollution via overconsumption." When a person moves into town and builds his family the biggest house in the county, he has a re
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
It's the same old story. I was walking through home depot with my friend one time, he was about to do some home improvements and I was offering helpful advice, and out of the blue he snaps at me "You think you're better than me!" Needless to say we couldn't be friends after that, because my mere presence brings his mood down. News of my advances were always seen as "bragging". It's the lesser-man's syndrome. He just wants you to in the same boat as him because he can't keep pace. He grins when you trip and fall. He doesn't see a difference between fairness and equality.
I knew it was in the high-teens but wasn't sure of the value. Since i have no receipt lying around (which usually have the VAT rate) i looked via google and used the first value that looked familiar.
I mistakenly used the GBP (pounds) value for the start of the top-most tax bracket (40%) in the UK.
In a similar vein i used the EUR-GBP exchange rate (which is roughly 1 pound per 1.5 euros).
It's possible to set-up my own company around here, and if i obbey a number of conditions i can declare my taxes via it. In this situation i can discount many expenses as company expenses. Unfortunately, my expenses beyond food, clothing and rent (all non-deductable) are a very small part (maybe 15%) of my after taxes income - most of the money i earn i save. Thus the company trick would add some requirements and limitation to the way i work, introduce a number of issues and save me very little.
Beyond this, the only big tax break for income tax is house morgage. Given the current status of the housing market in Holland at the moment (highly inflated, stagnating) i have refrained from buying a house.
Hence, i'm paying 55% income tax.
---
As far as i can tell, being single, childless, working as a freelancer and renting a house is pretty much the worse possible tax situation for a person here in Holland.
---
Anyways, all this does not detract from the fact that for specialized professionals (earning 3 times or more the average salary), Holland is a high-tax country with little in the way of public services.
Until either taxes go down or more public services are available (ie, the liberalization of the last years is partially reversed), anybody living in Holland which is not on the doe (Holland being a place where its very easy to get a disability pension for the smallest of things) will continue to pay high prices for sub-standard public services.
From what i've been seeing, i'm only one of many highly-mobile, highly-paid specialists that is choosing with his feet and leaving the country.
In the same way, most of the expats i personally know that recently moved to Holland have moved back or are thinking of moving back.
If this is a trend (and not just anedoctal evidence), it would go part of the way in explain the current lack of IT specialist of my area in Holland (which i can easilly gauge by the ammount of proposals in my e-mail box even though i'm listed in most job sites as not available).
---
The bottom line is that i cannot in good conscience sugest Holland as a good country to move to for anybody but those who value personal freedom above all.
I have lived on three continents USA is the best country going. If I couldn't live in the USA then Japan is the next best place. USA totally rocks #1 in fun and opportnity. Japan is its equal but not my home of origin and the language thing is a bit tough for a non native speaker. Although, I'm working on the language.
But the problem is, in the socialist countries of Europe, they don't still have the same average spending power. Quite the opposite, the average salary is higher in the U.S. and the difference has grown steadily over the past 25 years.
For example, in the late 1970s the German average salary was rapidly approaching U.S. levels; but now, the average U.S. salary is ~35% higher and the gap continuously widens.
In fact, the U.S. economy grows about 2%/capita/year faster than the economies of W. Europe. At that rate, in ~25 years the average income in the U.S. will be double that of W. Europe. At that point, the European countries will be unable to provide their poorest members with a lifestyle anywhere near equivalent to the poorest Americans.
It's not clear that people in socialist countries are happier on average.
In fact, it's not clear that the socialist interventions of European economies have benefitted even the lowest strata of those societies. The minimum wage may be higher than in the U.S., but the chances of employment are much lower (chronic unemployment among the poor is extremely high in W. Europe). Health care may be free, but that is accompanied by long lines and denial of health care to people who aren't imminently dying (at least in the UK and Canada). People may have job protection, but nevertheless they feel only slightly more secure in their jobs than in the U.S. (according to surveys) and much less certain of finding another job should they lose their current one. There may be less wealth inequality, but that has been accomplished primarily by reducing high wages, rather than raising low ones. Higher education may be free, but neverhteless, higher education is far more common in the U.S. than in Europe.
It appears that the socialist interventions have accomplished very little, other than to reduce the growth rate by a few percentage points, increase unemployment significantly, and reduce the salaries of top wage earners. The reduction in salary for top wage earners may reduce the sense of envy and of relative deprivation, but it does not increase anyone's well-being absolutely.
...All of that said, I will grant that the transportation infrastructure is superior in Europe, which clearly is a function of government spending. And I will also grant that Europeans work fewer hours per week and take 2 more weeks of vacation per year, which accounts for part of the salary reduction compared to Americans.
On the other hand, Americans don't feel the need to light on fire 100 cars on an average night in their capital city, out of protest over poor treatment.
Probably gun ownership is more dependent on cultural factors than economic ones. The right to own a gun is guaranteed by the U.S. constitution, which is a document that is almost considered divinely inspired by Americans.
In fact, there are a few rural towns in the U.S. which require gun ownership. In towns like those, guns are often given to children as gifts (although not out of economic protest).
So, its October now, that would mean you got there in April. Forget five years, lets see how you feel after spending November-March in Sweden ;)
FWIW, do you speak swedish? I know a lot of people there speak english, but my cousin who moved there feels alienated, even though she has learned to speak swedish it is still with an accent and feels discriminated at in job interviews and such for not being a native speaker...
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
2. Just accept it, you cannot mix too many different kinds of people, it doesnt work, humans are a PACK ANIMAL, they need similar
kinds together, mixing people is a scam to divide a populace so that voting can be controlled.
I don't know about this. I think some people from diverse backgrounds can get along together very well. The problem is that a lot of people don't. One thing I see here in the USA and in other Western countries is that immigrants come over, but then make absolutely no effort to integrate with the rest of the population. Then you wind up with factionalism, instead of unity. Here in the US, we have tons of Mexicans coming into the country, but many of them completely refuse to learn English (really, it isn't that hard to learn it at a conversational level), and keep doing all the dumb stuff here that they were doing over there which made Mexico such a crummy place.
I think immigration is a good thing in limited numbers, and with select people. Highly-educated people are usually a good bet; they're more likely to be open-minded, and adapt better to their new environment. They also contribute more to the economy. Immigration is a bad thing when you have human waves coming over, and they end up settling in ghettos, separated from the rest of society.
3. why was your old country crap? bad govt, corrupt govt, evil govt? then join a rebel group and do a coup.
This is something that bugs me a lot about all the Mexicans we have here. They're very nationalist, always talking about how great Mexico is. So why did they come here?
It's weird; a lot of people seem to think that immigration is some sort of human right. It's not. Groups of people have possession of pieces of land. If they allow you to move in with them, it's at their whim, and you need to make the effort to get along, instead of insisting that they bend over backwards for you. They didn't have to allow you in at all. As an analogy, think of it like your house. Should you be required to open your door to anyone that wants to come and live in your house? Of course not. It's your house: if you want to live all by yourself in a huge house, that's your right. If you want to invite certain people to come live with you, that's your right to, and it's your right to decide which people you want to invite. Just because you like someone else's house better than your own doesn't mean they have an obligation to accept you; if you don't like their terms, stay in your own house and fix it up.
Helps to be married to a nurse, and to be a trained and experienced diesel generator technician. Nowhere in the world we can't work.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
I was really burning out at my programming job for a medical device company in the states when my wife got an offer to teach at a large university in Thailand for a year. That was about 8 mos ago. We packed up our condo and rented it to some friends, packed one backpack and one laptop bag each, and took off for a year.
;)
;)
It. Is. Awesome. We live in the north, far from the English language centers of Bangkok and Phuket, but Thai people are about the most relaxed, patient, and indulgent people on the planet, so it's still very, very easy to get around. On ~800 USD/mo we're living pretty high on the hog. The cost of living (food, transport, rent, entertainment) is extremely low in this part of the country. You can get around easily, and the food is _incredible_, with restaurants in overwhelming supply and diversity. I can't say enough good things about Thailand, and will be sad to go when my wife's contract expires.
The only bad thing I can say about the experience is that the school gave us terrible information on how to deal with the visas, which required a trip to Laos to fix. Hey, kids: do all of your own research about exactly what kind of papers you need when you hit the ground *before* you head over there--and not just the minimum papers, make sure you understand all of the long-term visas.
Things that held me back at first:
1. Owning a house. Solved by renting to friends. A rental agent would have been more profitable, but I didn't like the idea of strangers living there (neither did the condo association). Also allowed us to leave a lot of stuff in our unit.
2. Giving up the security of a large salary and a very cushy work environment for totally unknown living circumstances.
I was hating my particular job at the time due to an extremely risk-averse department, but I honestly could have transferred to Japan or Belgium or a number of other places if I really wanted to keep working for the company. Leaving ultimately encouraged me to start a business with some friends writing the software my former employer was too risk-averse to pursue, and it's been a lot of fun so far (aided greatly, again, by Thailand's extremely low living costs on my end). Lesson learned: there's always another opportunity right around the corner.
3. Lack of interest in learning to speak Thai.
Solved: No matter how good my Thai becomes, most people around here have better English than my Thai, and they usually like to try their English on me anyway. Oh well, I certainly don't complain
4. Friends.
We're getting along really well with email, VoIP, and IM. We're even geeky enough to whip out the webcams and play boardgames online. Having a blog helps too, but damned if I'm posting the URL here on slashdot
5. Worrying about my cat. Ha! See, I planned this one well: those friends from up on #1? I made sure they were cat lovers so they'd take care of our cat for a year while they're renting. We still miss her, but at least she's being well cared for.
Addressing the tone of your question overall: We left the states to have an adventure, not to run away from something or start a new life--run as far as you want, there you'll be. Don't leave the states because you feel alienated by politics or culture: MOVE TO A DIFFERENT STATE OR CITY. It will likely be more profitable and less stressful--face it, in that situation you'd likely be moving to get rid of stress in the first place, and heading to a foreign country can be fraught with challenges at first.
Good luck!
Mod the parent interesting but not informative. The lack of facts plus the gross missuse of generalizations make this post almost useless. For one thing, the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) in the US actually encourages Folate to be added to flour thereby adding it to almost everybody's diet. In addition they did not ban vegemite but the stuff tastes so much like feces smell that I can't understand why you would want to take it when a normal dietary suplement in a pill form works and you don't have to taste it.
Secondly, I don't live in the pockets of educated and civilized society; I live in California. The state is the size of Iraq and home to the largest University System in the world from which I graduated. Get a clue and stop making generalizations.
That caveat is based on the rap I've heard from a number of expatrate ozi-women over the years, the claim being that male attitudes towards women in Oz is about 20 years or so behind the US. This may be a result of the relatively high beer consumption, but that's just a guess based on years of personal experimentation.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I don't know if there's another country that I could stand living in.
Pretty much everywhere in Europe and Asia is out due to the cars. If I couldn't pick up a used car with a V8 putting down at least 250HP through the rear wheels for under the equivalent of $3000, I'm not interested. Front wheel drive econoboxes seem to dominate the selection in those areas.
It's just too risky for an American to live in the middle east right now, so that's out too. I don't want to dramatically lower my standard of living or be in fear for my life on a daily basis, so that knocks out a good chunk of Africa and Central/South America.
The remaining countries that come to mind are Canada and Austrailia. Driving in Canada is just like driving here, except for the whole metric thing, so that's easy. Austrailia seems to be even better than here in the US, having vehicles like the Falcon and Monaro (which we finally got as the GTO) as well as those great B&S Utes that just sing to the redneck in me.
The problem with both of those is bandwidth. I've heard so many complaints about internet access in Austrailia being total garbage and Canadian complaints (particularly invisible bandwidth caps) seem to be increasing. I have 8mbit completely unrestricted here, and while it's not amazing in light of FiOS and some of the crazy direct 100mbit/1gbit to the home solutions I've heard of in Europe and Asia, it seems to be far above the average on Canada or Austrailia.
If anyone has some suggestions, I'm all ears. Tell me where I can find cars that would be fun to someone who loves the Mustang, at least 5mbit true unlimited internet, a less crazy government (no nanny states), and could survive speaking only American English for however long it takes to learn the native tongue.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Although with a small nuke, or the right conventional HE, the island im looking at leaves me the option to hold the east coast and much of europe hostage and take over the rest of the world...
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
I'm slightly bewildered as to how a thread on a story about leaving the US digressed immediately into "becoming addicted to cannabis." I guess that goes to demonstrate just how bad things are really getting in the US. "Can't deal with bushit so let's bake."
Oop, gotta go, it's twenty after four already...
Move somewhere else in the US, vote (or otherwise become part of the process to change things), or leave the country. Whatever you do, don't sit around and impotently whine. I have no respect for whiners.
I would go to UK, Cardiff, Wales to be specific.
Why? I love the country, its history and all things British. Plus, my mother lives in Wales so I would have at least one family member within visiting distance.
Why not? Without being sponsored by an American company with a UK subsidiary, it's very hard to legally work in the UK as an American.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Kiss my shiny metal ass, meatsack!
sorry, had to say it :)
Well, from where I'm looking, there are plenty of nice countries to live in. I live in a country where people are not always very nice towards each other. In fact, it's nothing out of the ordinary to read about elderly people who get beaten to death with bricks or stones. It's quite commonplace to hear about people who are hacked to death for their shoes. My country, I believe, holds the record for the most violent crimes on the face of the earth. Does it scare me ? No, it doesn't. I'm used to it. For me, most other countries on earth would be quite pleasant to live in, raise children and enjoy freedom. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective, really.
(Sigh, noone's gonna read my post way down here, but whatever.)
As corrupt as our laws seem to be getting, the constition is still more powerful. All of our "problems" (however defined) can be solved with new amendments. Intellectual property in particular needs an amendment. And maybe we need one more that restates the bill of rights in 21st-century terms so the courts stop misinterpreting it.
I'd rather create new amendments than leave the country. I'm even tempted to run for office, but y'know, I'm a lazy nerd on Slashdot.
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
sorry but YES. after 10 years of steady decline in the things that makes staying worth it, i am finally getting serious about leaving. i wish the next generation goodluck. i've had enough. 10 years isn't a long time in the history of a country, true, but it is a long time as a portion of my potentially fun filled life. i'm not willing to wait another 10 or 20 or 30 for the pendualum to (maybe) swing back.
every man for himself. besides... wouldn't leaving be the ultimate micro-economic capatalistic equalizer?
I am also a Computer Scientist that left Mexico. I partial offense on the statements about the border, the great majority of us love our country as much as people on the center/south parts of Mexico do, the thing is, that when we look out on our window we see an American Flag and Clean Streets, everything in its rightful place and job opportunities all just a few miles away... Although I do Agree with the statement about 'washing out' the Mexican status, some of it is done by shame about their home nation, and the shame they could not do anything about it. I actually understand their psyche on that level but I would not consider them Mexicans anymore. They are Americans and there should not be anything wrong with that. If The U.S. was next door to Europe we would see the same pattern emerge. The comment about liking corruption is not really completely accurate. It is more related to liking a 'status quo' mentality that arises thanks to the national political noise. Thanks to a broken bureaucracy and biased system of laws, social and cultural burdens, Mexicans are left to their own devices to survive. When a corrupt cop or official approaches you it uses Mexican laws and processes to make sure you comply in giving him a bribe. For example I recently went to a open source conference in Mexico City when I mistakenly borrowed a vehicle that had an 'illegal tag', (In Mexico City you can only drive your car in certain days to curtail pollution and a broken transit system) anyways I was stopped by a policeman and then I was told that I would go to jail and lose my vehicle because 'that is the law in Mexico' when I refused to pay him right there, another police car came in and also said the same thing. They made me leave my vehicle and made a big scene about how I was going to spend several days in jail (because supposedly the courts/bail bonds are off on weekends) since I am a stranger to Mexico City I got really scared (hey, I watched Red Corner :P ) and was forced to pay them a large amount just to get away from there.
Just like the above post said, The main problem is not really that we like corruption; is that instead of making something about it we have more pressing priorities such as well... 'living'. Now with the fact that we have a completely different ideology next door to Mexico you can only assume that many Mexicans hate their country because of the unfair comparison between a country that reached stability over a century ago with one that has not even reached 100 years since its last civil war.
I am also one of those people that would like to make a difference in my home country. I see a place that can be so much better if people really cared and be knowledgeable about changing it, but until more people actually roll up their sleeves and realize that change is more costly and worth while than their own self interest, we will see more of the same. An in the end, the tragedy will be regarded as the 'country whose people never grew up'.
Many regards to all
The best book on this matter is 'The Labyrinth of Solitude' (El laberinto de la soledad) imho the best book ever written about Mexico. (Written by Octavio Paz, who got the Nobel price in literature for this book)
Oh sorry, Vermont's still part of the US.
-Japan is nice, but you pretty much have to teach English to live there. I'd rather just visit when I want to.
-Canada -- too cold. nice to visit
-Dominican Republic, other carribean islands -- Permanent vacation could be nice, but if you want to work, you will work in the tourist business. Scuba instructor, Boat crew, etc...
-Five or six of my friends think they are going to move to India and live there. The other ones who have been there for a few years now have tuberculosis and some of them also have hepatitis. Their great plan is to live somewhere in the East (Thailand or India) where they think it won't be necessary to be gainfully employed because 'everything is so cheap'. Their primary motivation seems to be laziness and their unwillingness to find work that suits them in the US.
If you put aside its ignorance, arrogance and bad foriegn policy, the US has a lot to offer.
America, no one wants your portly masses.
We've been in America too, but not very many Americans here..
1. Canada, Iceland, Cascadia, or my own secessionist cult compound.
2. Family ties and the fact that it's not quite a police state yet.
Yeah,
We see how effective they are in North Korea and Iran --
Oh, wait. They're waiting for someone to come liberate them....
Americans keep snowshoeing across the border and buying up our graphics card manufacturers!
I'm moving to Beijing as soon as I graduate with my masters. The goal is to become a PhD student at Tsinghua, which has good AI and crypto researchers.
/. loves to hate the mainland, but its IP laws are still weak so by moving there I enhance my chances of successfully becoming a robber baron. From what I can tell, one way to construct a successful business is to grab as much as possible in fuzzy legal waters. Hopefully, by the time laws harden, you are powerful enough that they harden around you and not against you.
;) ) and when I need to be stealthy on the web I just use proxies and cryptography.
Everyone on
As for the privacy issues, they don't really bother me. I don't have any big qualms with the CCP (hey, they support Red Flag
Plus, the food's great and living is cheap.
Sounds a little more myopic. What about that whole globalism thing? What about wanting to broaden your understanding of the world? We see electronic and trade barriers go down all the time, yet outside of the EU we seem to cling ever more strongly to our boarders.
There will always be people who are dissatified, but I can think of a whole lot of other reasons to consider leaving the reservation. 20 years from now what do you think things are going to look like? Is globalism just a fad without broader repercussions?
As for your political views on the 'war' on terrorism, we'll just have to agree to disagree (part of what ideally makes this country so great!). I *do* think we are at a low point, but its not like this is the first or that there is any reason it should be the last. The political climate changes. Its a fact. But personally I'd love to expatraite. You can buy me that ticket. I don't think the US is a bad place, its just I'm not going to live forever and I've seen a lot of it already. I'd like to see a few other things before I hit the dirt. Call me crazy, but I love the diversity, languages, cultures we are surrounded with.
Ciao!
Quack, quack.
Yeah well, viva Chavez!
Canada is a good place to live if you have an English last name, otherwise you'll be discriminated against. I know, I was BORN here and see/experience it all the time.
Another major problem is over the last decade there has been a big push by the Feds to bring in Asian immigrants, mostly from India and Pakistan, and increasing numbers of them are fed up and moving back. Many complain that they are forced to work menial jobs for less pay than back home. These are not bums, these are professionals in fields like business, IT, law, etc... and they can't find positions in their field of expertise over here (most of them are dumped in the GTA area). Many of these professionals are forced to work stereotypical 'Asian jobs' like running convenience stores and driving taxi cabs just to support their families because no one will hire them to do what they're trained to do. This used to be a good deal for many people a while back when countries were much poorer, and even driving a taxi here gave a better standard of living, but with the drop in standard of living in Canada and the relative rise in places like India, many have chosen to simply go back out of economic consideration, if you can believe that! Basically the Feds keep on bringing in more people, claiming a need for persons with certain skill sets to fill certain voids, yet the reality is there is an abundance of people there to do the work, the competition is stiffer than the USA, and having an English last name gives you a definite edge over the rest of us. BTW, I am not of Asian descent, I come from the much older generation of European immigrants to Canada. Europeans don't even bother to come to Canada anymore for the most part, even from the poorer former socialist eastern bloc nations.
Other problems with Canada:
-much higher tax levels on average in relation to USA (Alberta have the lowest tax rate, anywhere else, especially Ontario, and you're screwed).
-significantly higher gas prices than USA (especially BC, and yes it matters, because public transport sucks, even in Toronto, so you will need a car)
-politicians are just as much, if not more crooked than their American counterparts. In fact they are for the most part American puppets (esp. Conservatives), so why settle for an imitation when you can have the real thing?
-services like health care are rapidly going down the tubes and privitization of heath services is quickly approaching.
-people here are on average more retarded than their American counterparts (Canadians are just as accepting of crap American culture than Americans are, so who is more stupid, the leader or the follower?).
If you want a general impression of how English Canadians view anyone who is not English, take a look at old episodes of Coaches' Corner on HNIC (seriously). Whether people here like it or not, Don Cherry and his sentiments towards foreigners more or less personify the feelings of the rest of English Canada. And take note that he's somewhat forced to tone it down a notch and hold back for public-supported national television. Many are much more outwardly and staunchly xenophobic (and sometimes downright racist) than he is.
(All of the above might not necessarily apply to Quebec (never been there). It's more like a country within a country and I'm not sure how the French feel about the rest of the country.)
This is one of the greatest things about America, if you look around you can probably find what you want somewhere else in the country. Part of this is because the Federal Government really isn't as strong as people think it is, and our perception of it tends to change with each President.
It's mainly all the hippies that want peace love and harmony but don't have the understanding to grasp the fact that some people hate us just because we(USA) are a western civilization and certain actions have to be taken to not have 9/11 happen again or anything near that. Instead of sitting on your ass complaining and threatening "I'm going to move to Canada!!" either GO! or do something about it! It's pretty plain and simple, everyone in this country would be much better off if you would just leave or if you could help make a change for the better rather than just protesting or, doing some other lazy hippy activity(This means you Hollywood). A bit off topic but; I mean come on.... over a million illegals from Mexico flood the streets with MEXICAN flags and shut down businesses.... that is the most counter-productive way to get your point across... Last time I checked a bunch of people coming into your country without permission from another is called INVASION and they can be shot dead....Stop protesting a fence/border.
ImagePut - Free, Simple, Fast Image Hosting
I'd like to move to Narnia. Or maybe Rivendale. Stupid Travelocity has all flights booked until 2097...
When people have had major disagreements with the culture and laws under which they live, finding continued inhabitation unacceptable, and they know of no other acceptable sovereign nation in which to live, they usually go somewhere where nobody else can bother them: the frontier.
However, there is no more frontier on land on Earth! All ground is claimed by some sovereign nation, who would be not very happy if some large band of American squatters showed up and claimed independence, even if the land were purchased beforehand (see Israel); and Antarctica is practically uninhabitable.
There are two solutions: international waters, either on or under the surface; or space, whether on a satellite or a planetary body. On a large enough scale, and with enough probability of safety, that isn't happening for quite some time.
Unless some country out there is willing to cater to the politics of this vocal crowd, for a long time, there is nowhere to go. Our best shot still rests in educing slow, gradual change by convincing the people of this country and of the world (including the politicians---yes, they're people too, though it's hard to tell sometimes) that our arguments are valid and worth pursuing. So stop complaining and start working to effect change. Even if it's just small things (e.g., politely, concisely explaining to an unaware but open-minded individual the concept of the public domain and why it's important), do something to bring about what you feel is right.
I have yet to visit a European country where the people weren't open and inviting, even after learning I was an American.
Been to France? What an arrogant bunch of pr**ks! They are jerks even before they find out where you're from. Exception: the crepe vendors are moderate and the hostel staff are indifferent.
Germany? Beautiful and friednly. Same for England, Scotland and Wales. Netherlands? Nice place to visit.
FAR AND AWAY the friendliest, happiest, most helpful people people I've met are the Egyptians. Hot but I'm used to heat. Haven't seen the rest of the middle east though.
The current republican administration and congress has gont way to far and they nede a slap in their face to help remind them who is really in charge.
Normally I say vote for the person, not the party, but this election I am saying vote democrat.
A clean sweep is the only thing that will make them think twice next time.
The republicans in the administration are not representitve of republicans at all.
They should ahve run under a corporist party.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Actually doing the opposite: moving to the US east coast because of job offer. Going because the job looks interesting. I wouldn't otherwise move to the US and certainly not the east coast (hubris and abrasiveness of those on the east coast US I've worked with so far - I'm so hoping they are not representative!), but perhaps Oregon or Northern California (having lived on Canadian west coast for last few years)
1) Where would you live, if not in America
Canada (west coast for the climate or the Prairies for the great people and lack of barriers to taking up new jobs/careers)
London UK (for the great multicultural culture that has developed there in the 90s, negatives are the outrageous cost of living) or Southern England (southern counties for the beautiful countryside), but the high cost of living and the difficulty in getting UK to recognize my foreign qualifications and experience have mitigated against that, so far
Baja California, Mexico for retirement (warm - year round, dry, easy going place) but probably not work (would first have to develop strong Spanish skills in order to understand the country better - for working life purposes)
Oman (older, stable, Arab country with UK connections, opportunity to experience the Arab world)
Other stable and calm Arab countries e.g. UAE, but not Saudi
Southern France or Northern Italy (for beautiful countryside and mild climate)
Spain... maybe... haven't spent much time there yet, in order to assess it
Scandinavia.. maybe.. but haven't yet spent anytime there
2) What's stopping you from going?"
Employment/pay/job security: hard to get find work in other countries and hard to live without the money that comes from work. Having lived in UK and Canada so far and about to add the US to that, I'll probably move again in a few years time. So finding work and the current poor timing (i.e. currently moving to US) are the barriers for me
p.s. advice re moving to the US appreciated: blog at movingtous.wordpress.com
BTW spell checking in Firefox 2.0 is fantastic - first time I've used it. First time I've noticed it really, I was wondering what the red dots were for a few mins.
Its your opinion and its cool that you shared it. Personally I think America is too big to be properly representative of the 'public' which is probably my biggest complaint. But culturally I'd simply like to see more. Sounds like the Air Force was a good experience for you.
Quack, quack.
When you would stop seeing America as a Country.
America is a continent that has so many countries in it.
Your country has a name, use it, love it.
One word: poutine.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
As an American living in Europe for the last 12 years, it seems to me that the US has become more European than ever.
A corrupt elitist government.
Lack of class mobility.
State controlled Media.
Sliding incomes.
The list goes on and on....
I live in Norway and I have to say that N. Europe is not all it is cracked up to be: It is not all bad, but there are some things to consider: you have that 50% tax rate, and some of the highest suicide rates in the world ( we don't talk about that ). One in three people are involved in a dispute with their neighbors. Dont even think about starting a tech company - It is like beating a dead horse. New ideas, are not good ideas.
However let us not dwell: There is a list to be had here somewhere.
Sweden - where good Germans go when they die.
Denmark - somehow they are some of the happiest people on the earth but even more taxes and serious racial problem.
Finland - I have not been there too much but it seem all potatoes all the time, liquid and solid. Then there is Nokia too. Not to mention Snow.
Netherlands - well enough has been said about NL already. A bit dull outside Amsterdam.
German - you know about that already - Berlin is pretty normal.
France - Massive disregard for the State and an enviable ability to make the best of it.
Italy - I heard it said once, "That the genius of the states is the separation of Church and State. The genius of Italy is the Separation of the State and the people."
England - Cool, kind of stiff, but cool: As long as you don't mind the paper work and décor.
Spain - is cool just don't try to work too hard.
Don't get me wrong. I like all these countries - I like Europe and the States. I have a great time in both places. Europe is just different from the States: Europeans are romantic about their homes and countries. Americans are romantic about possibility. Europe invented America to give vent to those that seek possibility amd freedoms. That is what you are doing in this thread, seeking new horizons.
If I were going to move again I would look at the regions in the EU: Amsterdam, Catalonia (Barcelona), Lombardy (Milan), and London. This is where W. Europe is on the go - or look east to the "New Europe" that might be more like the States. Might...
As someone else noted you are, whoever you are, where ever you go. To this I would add that there is no where that is problem free. Get involved and change the thing you don't like.
Cheers -
Mate thats cool and we need more people with your perspective that have seen the outside world, taken on board the differences, but still find the grass greener on the side you choose.
:-)
Problems arise when the arguements about exactly what "shade of green the grass is" on both sides amounts to speculation.
I am a brit who has now lived abroad in Belgium for 6 years. It is my second time here in Belgium - first time I hated it. I went back to the UK and realised that, actually, it wasn't Belgium so much as it was that I discovered that pretty much all countries suck, just in different ways.
For me, England sucks (not totally, but comparatively too many ways for me) and I like the Belgium lifestyle more.
Happy to hear you discovered that your home lifestyle was your zen
Cheers,
Dan
P.S. Over here in Europe almost all of us love the Americans (many immigrants here have anti American feelings, its to do with the scapegoat syndrome) - the issue a lot of us have is with the US foreign policy. Please drop Bush and get rid of religion in the White House - be the America your founding fathers promised to you!
I like america. Yeah, the current wadministration sucks, but we get a chance to overturn that every few years.
I like living in a ciuntry where a streeet corner can have a different house of worship on each corner and the people don't get into a fire fight when they go to church.
I like have pretty much every type of land one can imagine.
I like not being dragged away for being outspoken.
Yeah, some things need to change, but that applies to all countries.
Oh, If I had to move, I'd aim for New Zealand.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As a non American, I repectfully ask that you don't leave.
If the Moderate/Technorati leave, then the nukes will be more and more in the hands of the extremists. This will be bad for eveyone.
Stay and help the the rest of the world.
I believe that NAFTA has a proviso banning the shipment of water from the great lakes to other states/provinces. Several states are hurting for clean water and dont want to decontaminate the water they have. This is probably the first reason for the USA to invade Canada. And when you consider the no-bid contracts Haliburton got in Iraq for the Iraq oil... I wonder if wood, oil, and hydro electricity also wouldn't be good reasons from an american point of view.
-dan
1. Belize, New Zealand, Australia, Costa Rica ... I'm most likely gone. Unless the startup I'm involved in kicks off, then six more years and then cash out and gone.
2. I haven't left because I have credit card debt to pay off. Once that's gone
Yes, yes... Oh just yes. Oh god, yes. I'll keep to myself the unpleasant extent of my personal agreement organism but up front: I wish I hadn't mod'ed my last point on the bloody fedora core 6 review.
As a fellow Canadian(bloody hell, Victoria too), I'd pay a good slice to see that running full page in an American newspaper prior to the midterms.
It sums up much, in the right tone.
"If you don't have eyes you shouldn't have wings" -- Carl Pilkington
I moved from Jonesboro, Ar to Australia where I was a network engineer. I don't work harder but I get much more recognition, and am no longer raped by conservative Christian nazis. Yay!
for this very same reason me and my wife (I am dutch, she is american) decided to give up after 3 years and we are living happily in the USA now.
FELLOW DUTCHMEN: GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!!
(wegwezen!)
It's time for the old maxim: "divide and conquer". The Federation outlived it's purpose.
The US it's a continent not a country, that's the European view.
Why not have the Republic of California, The Republic of Texas and so on. It would be easier to manage. Also you could more easily attract people to this partition project by enticing them with the power they could have or the money and land in these new countries.
You should consider Somalia: A country without a government, hence *no* taxes and *no* social services. Since there's no state to threaten your freedoms, there's no need for a constitution or constitutional guarantees in the first place. A socially liberal culture isn't something a Libertarian should demand either since you should respect other persons' freedom to hold different, socially illiberal opinions. Even security and defense are completely privatized in Somalia and within the hands of some non-governmental, non-elected warlords. You might negotiate with them what it's worth to you if they protect your life. (I.e. if they don't kill you.)
So all Libertarians should go to Somalia. It's the most minimalist state on the Earth, the country of their dreams.
I would move to Japan...which I did. Though I don't plan to stay here forever. After a few years, I will pack my things up and maybe move to Australia, Taiwan, Phillipeans, Croatia, Dominican Republic, or somewhere in South America. After all, why do you have to stay in one play your whole life. It is like computers...you could still be running a 486 with Windows 3.11, but I prefer to upgrade every few years. Same with countries.
Aisle 5, between the Dayquill and Nyquill. You might want to open up a bank account there too, I hear that they're planning on being able to cash cheques sometime soon.
I have discussed this with my wife.
Going to another country has a large number of hardships that can't be avoided.
We do love the US (or at least our side of the country), but if this Nazification continues, we will have no rational choice but to leave.
I am both of jewish and american indian descent, while my wife is also american indian. Both groups have been through persecution and worse. We can't let our baby grow up in a place like where the white house hedge is taking us.
When we feel the course can't be changed, we will have to find the american dream someplace else.
The ideals the USA was founded on are a jewel of inspiration to the whole world. It is a tragedy that the current "leadership" has apparently never read them...
I live in Göteborg, Sweden. On the down side, we have lame and provincial politics and
high taxes. Winters get pretty dark too.
On the up side, I can ride a bicycle to just about anywhere I need to go, or take a tram
if the weather is lousy. I have the symphony orchestra, theatres, opera, jazz and rock
stages at walking distance. 10 minutes on the bike to work. 20 minutes to kayaking waters
and 30 minutes to wilderness. 30 minutes to the interantional airport, which does
international checkin up to 45 minutes before the flight. Domestic is shorter.
You can fish in the moat, 3 blocks from my house, or go 2 blocks in another direction
if you want to do the pub rounds.
I have an American friend who is working on imigrating. He comes here for the Salsa scene.
But 9,901,010 km of it is a frozen frikin' wasteland. Basically like Australia except with more ice and fewer road warriors. Nobody lives in the north of Canada. We all congregate, shivering, as close as possible to the US. Truth be told, we'd all be in Florida or California if we could breach the fortress America they got going on. I guess at some level, Mexicans must be just plain tougher than Canadaians, or more bulletproof. Maybe its just easier to walk 50 miles in the desart than 50 miles in snow.
X and X^2 are not correlated if X is a random number chosen uniformly over the interval [-1,1] (or [-2,2], etc.). I think you're confusing the rather technical term "correlation" with its less technical brethren. Of course, I contributed to that by giving a rather wordy non-exact example, but one that a layman can understand.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I would only leave the US if they made marijuana possession a capital offense or banned all guns or the only decent jobs are elsewhere. You see, I'm a classic libertarian. And I've been a few places and studied a few more so here blows the hot air...
What I Like About the US --
1) More stuff open 24 hours a day than anywhere else, except maybe Tokyo, but I only have hearsay on that.
2) Where else can you legally own a machine gun without pledging fealty / giving your sister to the local warlord?
3) Police normally don't bust you unless you're obviously doing something illegal or stupid. Unless you're a female, then they might try the "Driving while barefoot" infraction to get into your pants. But I hear that happens everywhere.
4) Generals have to retire BEFORE they're allowed to run the country (unlike a certain Pakistani dude), unless you consider the new NSA guy to be running the country. At least neither the Fed chairman nor the IRS commish was ever a general.
What I dislike about the US --
1) Monetary policy is making the dollar go the way of the Roman denarius. We'll be 1:1 with the Russian ruble (with commensurate living standards) if current trends continue.
2) Nothing is ever REALLY done politically for moral, ethical, or health reasons, despite what we are told. Smoking banned in restaurants for health reasons? Nope, it's so mommy and daddy and bratty junior don't have to wait for a non-smoking table at the local chain restaurant. It's all about convenience, power and money.
3) People here are experts at finding others to cover the costs of their needs. I ran for office (state house) a couple of years ago, and I'd love to share some of the questions I was asked, e.g., "To cover indigent health care, would you support raising diesel (notice the question didn't mention gasoline) taxes by 25 cents per gallon?"
About some of the other countries I've lived in or have considered moving to I will render opinion.
Germany -- Good = Beer at McDonald's, they love cars like we love guns, it's socially acceptable to drink beer at 10am; Bad = Rainy and cold except July, then it's just rainy. Though this summer I hear was an exception.
France -- Good = Everyone I met was very courteous -- this was in the south of France during the Reagan era, though; Bad = They drove hideous cars.
Spain -- Good = The Med coast is like the Panama City of Europe with lots of cheap fun, and lots of Brits / other Euros in good humor; Bad = It's the Panama City of Europe architecturally and weather-wise.
Netherlands -- Good = Easiest place in the world to score dope, except maybe the projects here or Kaiserstrasse in Frankfurt (BTW, if you're the redhead I met in Amsterdam back in '99, you still want to come to the States?); Bad = Weather similar to Germany's, and if the sea walls ever cave in, Katrina x10.
Scandinavia -- Good = Long summers. Used to live in Alaska and I miss them; Bad = Long winters. Don't miss them so much.
Australia -- Good = The girls all sound like they're ready to jump your bone; Bad = Lots of poisonous critters. They shoot cats too though I understand the necessity (and maybe the pleasure).
UK -- Good = More like the US than anywhere else save Canada; Bad = Maybe too much like the US.
Switzerland -- Good = Cultural influences from France and Germany without the historical baggage; Bad = What's more likely, an avalanche in Switzerland or a tornado in Oklahoma? Not eager to find out.
Canada -- Good = Maybe the best of US, UK, and France in one place; Bad = Maybe the worst of US, UK, and France in one place. Will also be conquered, (*cough*) I mean "integrated", with the US in the future -- moving there is just delaying the inevitable.
Most other places (i.e. Third World) -- Good = They're not in walking distance (save Mexico); Bad = Everybody is out to separate you from your money and/or your head. Might as well paint a target on your back.
Now I go make baby.
You're confusing freedom with happiness. The essence of freedom is choices. Happiness is in large part dependent on relative wealth; that is, how wealthy you are compared to you neighbors. Wealth makes available more choices. So, all things being equal, a wealthy person is freer than a poor one.
> However, wealth is, to a large degree, a measure of your freedom.
> How much wealth you want to have is basically a measure of how much
> you care to tolerate the circumstances of your life being dictated to you.
So wealth gives you freedom and dictates the circumstances of your life. How do you define freedom, again?
Take off every 'ZIG' !!
My greatest fear of Austin is the work environment. Your bosses are the living incarnation of satan. You have to come in on Saaaaaturday and umm, yeah, on Sunnnnnnnnday. You live in dumpy apartments where your construction worker neighbors hear you breath. You drink coffee at Chotshkies every 5 minutes.
...most of the time you can forget that the so called Liberals (who are really the conservatives) are in power...
Not really on topic, just a pet peeve of mine: the antonym of "conservative" is not "liberal", it's "progressive". Neither "conservative" not "progressive" have any particular ties to liberty. During the emergence from medieval times to modern times the two were closely associated, but if now (in some places at least) the newer ways are less free than the old, then those who are still liberal become framed as conservatives. In the future, if socialism comes to be seen as old and stodgy, then modern "labour" parties may be considered conservative.
The association of "progressive" with "liberal" continues in America, despite our so-called "liberals" being little more concerned with liberty than our "conservatives" (who are not particularly liberal either). Mind you that personally, I'm not a huge fan of the nearly unrestrained liberty - or rather, lack of social responsibility- that classical liberals (now called libertarians) favor, any more than I'm a fan of the various flavors of authoritarianism that contemporary progressives and conservatives are both driving us toward.
Back on topic: I <3 Australia and would prefer to move there if for any reason things got nasty enough for me here that I felt it necessary to move.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
And you are posting that information on /. solder? You don't seems to be too stress.
No sig for now.
This article isn't about where we would move and why we don't but why US SUX. Let it out. Welfare state and institutionalism are the biggest problems with IT. Canadia would probably offer a better standard of living, but it's really cold up there. Kuwait and United Arab Emirates have the highest standard of living in the world but have terrorist problems. Europeans have even more welfare problems than US. Russians keep tripping over themselves and never finish anything. Japan is almost as crowded as Silicon Valley. Antarctica is too cold. Everyone's trying to escape Mexico.
Indeed, US is the peak of human civilization, but a civilization is only as good as the human condition allows it to be. Human nature always leads to the mindless worship of a few strong leaders and our own enslavement. We can only do so well in the limitations of the human brain.
But insulation means being fried during summertime, and no insulation means being frozen during winter, but even having insulation means being cold during winter as few houses have central heating.
How stupid. I believe we have a somewhat comparable climate in Denmark (to NZ, that is.) But since the 1973 oil crisis, Danish houses have been built with more and more insulation, to the point that many houses built today are "zero-energy" houses. This means they are insulated so well, that in winter, the body heat from the inhabitants, together with the heat from lighting and cooking is sufficient to heat the house.
So you will fry in hot summers, right? No of course not. Keep the door shut and the windows closed during the day, and the insulation will keep the inside temperature well below that outside. Why is it that noone can understand that insulation works just as well keeping heat out? No need for air conditioning either (another energy-waster.)
-Lasse
For some reason a lot of them would like it back.....after Capitalism was reintroduced liberalizing prices meant that the elderly and others on fixed incomes suffered a severe drop in living standards and people saw a lifetime of savings wiped out, but thats their fault for not taking care of themselves. They get democracy, the chance to vote and they keep whinging about is 'I haven't got enough money to pay the rent, buy food or heat the flat'. They have freedom now for christ's sake
Thats the problem with commies....almost as bad as the Iraqis. We marched into their country, freed them from an opressive dehumanizing system and what happens, they hate us
I'm with you on this one. It's a tough old world out there and everyone should look after themselves. Those commies who keep bleating on about making sure all those who can't look after themselves like the mentally ill, those unable to work due to illness like cancer and so need to be looked after by the rest of society make me sick.
If any of those commies try taking anything from me I've got a gun
I've worked in Australia at > $100,000 a year and in the USA on the same wage.
...and so on...
Dollar for dollar, I pay _more_ tax in the USA than in Australia by somewhere between 3% and 5%.
While Australia may have a higher income tax level than the USA, somehow it works out differently.
Oh, some other things that are pro-Australia:
* visiting a doctor in Australia is 1/10th of the price in the USA
* doctors visits are subsidised by a medicare system that works
* the price you pay is the price on the sticker, no per-state/county sales tax added at checkout
* you don't encouraged to divulge your tax identification number to every man and his dog
* nice places to live don't suffer from air pollution problems on even a regular basis
* the chocolate varity in 7-11 and similar stores is *much* better (I can't believe the absolute crap you have in these places, in the USA)
BUT...
1) various car makes such as BMW/Mercedes are much more expensive in Australia, relatively speaking
2) I can live and work in America, renting here and paying a mortgage in Australia...can't do it the other way around!
If I could choose?
I'd live and work in Australia any day.
1. I considered leaving and abandoned the idea.
2. I could live elsewhere, lots of elsewhere's
- but if America goes as bad as it could there won't be an elsewhere that matters, being there would be as bad as being here, at least here I know the country at an inimate level.
This is my home and I fought for it there, and I'll fight and even die for it here if need be, I won't be driven out by neofacists that hide behind veils of false piety and false flag waving.
If the rest of the world finds us a danger to them, thay have the same rights any nation does to protect themselves.
Pick a random patch of inhabited land on the globe. Move there for five years. Then come back to America and use what you've learned to make America better. Talk to people about the differences between there and here, and what was better and worse in each place. See if some of the stuff that was better over there can be adapted for local use.
If only two million Americans did this every year, how much cooler would America become?
I love what America could be. Stand up and fight for your country. Germany is a nice country, but before I left, I stood up for honest elections, running a one man political campaign in Oxford (UK), with all its Close circuit cameras and policing measures.
I suggest you protect your self by joining a political party before you campaign for democracy. You may get a kicking like I did, if you don't.
I know. You think that's still inside the United States. I thought so, too-- until Bill O'Reilly told me the plain "No Spin Zone" truth. I'm living in a completely foreign country. My neighbors and I are, apparently, all terrorists and enemies of the United States--though, I'm not sure what we did to be so designated.
There could be a downside, however-- all it takes is one look at a contour map and you'll see that San Francisco will fall to an American invasion faster than even Montreal. Plus, we really don't have much of an army or a navy. Our defense strategy against foreign invaders is pretty much: dude, put away the nine if you want to get laid around here; and, if you can help with the rent, then you're welcome to hang out--otherwise, good luck finding another roommate.
jhw
Have you ever lived in Belo Horizonte? I live there, oops, here. :) When I lived in the UK, nobody I talked to had ever heard of Belo Horizonte, just Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.
"...where civil rights have been nullified by a political party..."
I love it when people say "A" political party did this or that and how the EXECUTIVE branch did it all on their own. It evolves from a complete misunderstanding of government. THE U.S. Congress passed this law "THE OTHER" party voted for it to.
AND don't ever kid yourself into thinking these laws wouldn't have been passed if the other party was the majority.
Look, all this business of going back and forth and criticizing each others religion is going to go nowhere. After all, we are all human, and it is humans who commit crimes in the name of religion. Let us get away from this childish name calling.
One AC said that all the raping and killing is going on in north africa and is being done by muslims. However, Christianity is not without blame either. In the name of spreading "gods word", the western powers invaded other countries, and nearly wiped out native cultures. A case in point - children of Australian aborigines were snatched from their parents so that the children could be raised as "good christians". I dont have anything against christianity, I am just pointing out that a lot of harm has been inflicted on people in the name of religion or ethnicity just because they didnt confirm with the majority. This by no means is limited to muslims, jews, christians killing each other. There have also been situations where muslims, jews and christians have caused harms to people of their own religion as well (Iraq: shia vs sunni, Ireland - Protestants vs Catholics etc).
So, ultimately, let's remember that it is humans that are causing this. And also, remember that unless you read up on the other religions, it doesnt make sense to quote some lines from the other people's scriptures and try to make a point.
I tend to think that in a purely capitalist system, value is determined by productivity. In a socialist system, where everyone gives their earnings to the government to be redistributed "fairly," value is determined by need. I think that leftist/socialist thinking is to take care of those in "need" right? Take welfare for instance. A person can't (or won't) find work and needs to feed their children and have thus generated "need." The government then places a value on that need and supplies it. The more children, the more "need" the more value. In this kind of system, productivity doesn't determine your worth, need does, so what would motivate a person to be productive when they have more value by creating "need." This is why a socialist system cannot work in the long run and why free markets are the only viable economic solution. Admittedly, a completely hands free approach by the government will see corporate mega giants screwing everybody they can to make a buck, but then, would people force themselves to become more business savy to protect themselves?
We have a ruling class raised in a conservative religious ethic. They never had enough fun in their lives and have need to deprive others of fun rather than fixing the problem and LOOSENING the conservative religious ethos in this country. We can't even talk about sex and intimacy unless it's in an r-rated movie or a dumb talk show. Hello! Is anyone listening? I should not have to go to Europe to have good clean fun in a party with people my own age. We're repressed to the Nth degree in this country and it's way past juvenile at this point. I work hard and I want to enjoy my time off when I actually have some.
BTW, reason to stay here: South Park, Drawn Together, Robot Chicken...
Some of the freest people I've ever met make, and have, almost no money. They just don't need it! They have time to travel -- like 18 months at a stretch -- and mentally they've gone places and learned wisdom that seems inaccessible to people that are focused on money, and don't understand other mechanisms for getting things done. Similarly some of the most enslaved people I know have lots of money. They're so afraid to let go of their lifestyles that they might as well be in jail.
Myself, I didn't even know myself until I semi-retired, and got something more precious than money -- lots of unstructured time.
Academics have studied this issue, BTW. They find that the first $20K/year or so *really does* buy happiness, and then the law of diminishing returns sets in hard and fast. This helps explain why Americans are no happier than they were in the 1970's, as measured by surveys, than they are now, even though per capita GNP is up a lot -- 80% maybe, I'll not take the time to look it up. And it turns out that a lot of us are miserable about what we've done to mama earth to get that "wealth", and that people in other countries -- mainly Latin ones -- really *are* happier even though they're a lot poorer.
Money ain't everything, baby, once you've got a little.
Free? No no no. Governments provide services to their citizens by levying taxes on those citizens. Let's not get caught in the misconception that the government is capable of providing anything for "free" - one way or another, the citizens pay for every last bit of the services provided by the government.
I left the U.S. in 1999 and have lived in Kazakhstan ever since.
No, I'm not joking.
Since I'm not a citizen of Kazakhstan, I don't have any access to the political system. So one can argue that I am no more free and have no more influence on national politics than I did when I lived in the United States.
But at least nobody bothers to pretend that I do. It's refreshing, in a way.
1. United Federation of Planets - an empire with real American values circa 1960's...
;P
2. Time - you have to wait until the 23rd century... Only two more to go!
Immortality would help with the wait... Anyone checking to see if they're immortal lately?
I'd pick Australia for the fun factor, but their politics are as messy as ours here in the States.
Norway.
I loved Norway, the people were awesome, the scenery was like being able to walk from San Francisco to Colorado and the language was starting to click with me in a few days. Food was good too, and multi-cultural enough to keep variety going (I'd miss Mexican food though). I very much liked the eco-friendliness of all the Scandinavian areas. It wasn't flakey, it was a way of life.
What's keeping me from going? Family, lack of money, worries of employability and naturalization issues. In that order. Same thing as I'd suspect for 99% of everyone else.
BTW, I love my country. We get many things right. Unfortunately the last 6 years of politics and war hasn't been one of those right things. Instead of me moving, can I just exile Bush?
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Australia:
It's like America, only without the schoolkids toting guns and the crowded cities, plus we have better weather and you can spend Christmas at the beach.
We don't have a political dictator like Bush, just a funny looking midget with big fuzzy eyebrows
We have a booming IT industry (at least in Perth at the moment, more jobs than people)
Oh, and we drive on the correct side of the road...
-- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
do not stay and fight, do not try and seal the planks.
The US is in decline. I know, I've seen where its heading. Dumbass population, no money (crap for wages), bankrupt social security tax system (high tax rate), nasty ass government (read: they tax u for everything, and then anally rape you on your disposeable income), overpriced trash (can u say plastic, veneered, disposeable crap), no health insurance, crappy health insurance when u do have it, nazi republicans, nazi conservatives, have I *mentioned* the incredibly ignorant dumbasses who could reason their way out of a paper bag? I tell everybody DONT MARRY somebody from the US, they suck _horribly_ and not in a good way. Cancer clusters, toxic sewage dumps, highest per capita of lawyers, financial institutions that make judas look good, RUNRUNRUN!
personally I go for Austria, Canada, New Zealand, Phillipines but really I'm just looking for the most bandit-infested, ass-backwards, isolated mountain range and set up shop there.
Another reason is that you have the right to protect yourself. Otherwise, the government can arbitrarily punish people by denying them any form of physical protection. "Oh, this neighborhood didn't vote for me. Well, I'll just release all the murderers there, give the cops a paid vacation, and see what happens."
Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
Cold beer, warm sunshine, hot ladies. Smiles. Laid back; casual. Imagine a country where you are respected and admired. Imagine a country where 8 year olds drive motorcycles and 80 year olds live with their children. No Homeland Security, no CNN. I've lived in Thailand for sixteen years, and never regretted a minute of it.
Perhaps you would like reading the book. It seems its actually much more linked to habits you develop and choices you make. Frugality has a lot to do with it. Working your own business (a matter of choice in the US) gives you a better chance.
If you read the article I linked to, you'll see that there is a higher proportion of millionaires from Scottish descent than most other nationalities. Why? They are frugal and teach their children to be frugal. I quote: "Thus the same $100,000 income-producing household of Scottish descent saves and invests at a level comparable to the typical American household that annually earns nearly $150,000." and "No other ancestry group has such a high concentration of millionaires from such a small concentration of high-income-producing households."
So, even if you can't make a high income (opporunity) your habits will be a very influential factor in your net worth. Another quote: "Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dullnormal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors." indicates that it's not some special, rare stroke of luck. It's just the right to be in business for yourself.
Chance events happen to everyone, good and bad. The parents question was "You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly?". Yes, you can have greater control, probably better called influence. But, in a very real sense, you are right, chance happens, so you do not, by the strength of your will, get control as in absolute control.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Although I am not American, it's easy to answer this question as it is universal.
The reasons someone may want to leave the country is not because he doesn't like the country, but the reason he doesn't like the government. So wish to change the country usually means the wish to change the government, and taking into account the personality of American president, this is a normal wish.
And the reason why people don't leave their countries is simple - this is against the human nature. We fight for our place, not changing it because of some jerk(s) trying to make our life worse. If everyone who opposes the regime of G.Bush would leave America, he would rule forever, so leaving the country is a kind of selfish act. For most humans, leaving is like retreat. The same is for every country.
I wonder if Antarctic penguins have the same problems...
That being said:
I haven't read the article (login required) and "the book" (which book?), but I have a few objections to what you said.
First, frugality. I'm sure that has an effect, but why this would be bigger in the US than anywhere else I cannot see. Plus, while frugality will pay off under specific circumstances (possibly the majority), there are many business endeavors where it is bad for you. Dunno what this says about the control one has, but my gut feeling is again that this still does not mean that hard working equals rich any more in the US than in other places.
There exist however many hard working rice farmers and pest controllers that are not rich. Again, I am not completely convinced.
Appreciated. An honest question: what about failure? Don't you have to take into account when juding about control over your life that in Europe there is a social safety net? If in the US your business goes wrong in spite of hard work and other good qualities you have (say, you had no health insurance and got sick), what about the influence over your life then?
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
He is absolutely 100% correct and we are busily working on lowering the temperatures even further.
:)
If you do not feel like living in a place which makes Canada look like Bahamas then Norway is not your choice of destination (if you do decide to come please wear at least two sets of long wooly underpants - do not walk off the plane without them!).
Ignore the crazy people from Bergen who talk about their mild climate resulting from the Gulf Stream etc. without mentioning their 359 days a year of falling ice-shards (as victims of a harsh environment one of their survival strategies is to insist on calling it 'rain').
Norway - cold, cold & wet, freezing yet wet, freezing & very dry, freezing & very dry except for your sweaty long underpants, so cold you think it might be getting warmer: we have it all!
If you are so inclined please take personal responsibility for your limbs, toes, and fingers: we will under no circumstances waste time trying to find their blackened frostbitten remains upon your departure.
I didn't know you could freeze it in the first place.
-T
wealth is, to a large degree, a measure of your freedom.
Not really, it might be part of it, but only a small one(as lot of rich people who end up committing suicide find out the hard way)
Having lived in the US, I know that most people work night and day with a lot of overtime. Even many of those who are rich. And not because they like it so much, but because if you don't, you have a real chance to lose your job and spend weeks/months finding a new one. And meanwhile worrying what your family will live on! Unless fun or freedom=work for you, or you're in the upper 1% that doesn't have to work, the above quote doesn't hold true.
Freedom is really about having enough time off from work to spend with your family. In the US, you start with a week, and might go up to a months in 4 years, unless you change jobs. In almost all European countries(afaik) and New Zealand(where I live) you start with 6 or more weeks(I wonder if there's a comparison of this worldwide...) and you can even take a year off(unpaid of course) and still be guaranteed your job.
Another issue with the US that's quite blatantly obvious is the middle class is slowly being eroded. Money in the _billions_ being spent on foreign wars, which really only benefits the rich oil companies. Sad what W has done, it really is.
Other countries have their own disadvantages, as anyone who has travelled will tell you "There's no perfect place", it's always give and take. If you live in the US and have never travelled outside of it, you probably think it's the greatest cause that's what you've been taught.
-T
Jeg vil gjerne gå på Norge! At least once I learn the language. It's nice and close to home so I wouldn't be too far away from family, and because they're in the EEA I wouldn't even have to apply for citizenship.
> at least we can escape the non-stop hypocritical religious rhetoric
so there aren't many muslims in your area, then, eh? and it's ok for the froggies to ban religious practices (the headscarf thing)
It doesn't work like that. Inflation happens when there is more money about. Empowering people with lower taxation merely changes where the money goes.
After decades in the US I'm returning to the UK and taking my American-born kids with me. The UK is far from perfect, but I have developed such a hatred for the US I can't live here anymore. I never believed it could happen.
Julia Cameron
Oich ù agus hiùraibh éile
Wrong in the sense that the freedom I cherish is freedom from oppression, freedom of speech, free ownership of property, freedom of doing pretty much whatever the hell I want with my own life, while not limiting the same freedom of others - the socalled negative freedoms - not the "freedom" to buy whatever I want, whenever I want, a positive freedom. Of course wether or not is wrong depends on your definition of freedom.
Well, thanks for clearing that up.
No, 77% of Harvard students think relative wealth will make them happier. I tend to agree with them. Luckily they (and I and you) are free to decide for ourselves. My theories aren't about economics, they are about freedom.
If you take that argument to the extreme, you could never allow any kind of improvement in anything, anywhere, since this will inflict loss of happiness. How about the first guy that build a house with brickwall next to the log-cabin? So what's the limit? You can't build anything that more than 10% better than what is already build in that neighborhood?
No, capitalism is about the simple idea that trade creates value. Whenever something is traded, both parties to the trade consider themselves richer (in a total sense, which includes percieved happiness, not monetary) than before.
If could also be that I want to work the $100K job for 5 years to save up some money, then settle down and make less money in the nicer job after that. Or it could also be that the $100K job is actually the better one. Or maybe I'm trying to put my children through college at the expense of my own happiness.
In all cases you got to decide for me, and make me less happy.
If somebody wants to work a bad job for more money and become miserable because of it, I firmly believe that they should be allowed to do it. It is none of mine or your business.
Majority of the population? You mean those folks currently evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans? And what exactly would the marjority of the population be angry about? The country's extremely low unemployment rate? The high standard of living? Please what would get folks angry enough to get them to miss their TV shows and come together as one.
I'm all ears.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Yeah because thats going to happen.
Have you figured out yet that you hurt the pro-gun cause when you come out with bullshit excuses for owning guns? There ARE legitimate reasons you know....like simply wanting one.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
X and (X-1)^2 are not correlated when X is chosen uniformly over the range [0,2]. There are literally an uncountably infinite (specifically, Aleph_2) amount of curves Y=f(X) where X and Y are not correlated, even when f is deterministic. Many of these apply in the "real world". I like that you're extremely confident in your beliefs, but I think it's time for you to re-examine those beliefs. Of course, as you point out, it's also important to realize that in the "real world" nothing is the sole cause of any other thing.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I just disputed that this can be deduced from the fact that most rich americans are first generation.
Point taken. The question I was answering was "You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing?" If most or all rich became rich by inheritance, it would be evidence that you cannot. Most rich americans being first generation allows (but doesn't prove) that you can influence your socioeconomic standing.
I haven't read the article (login required) and "the book" (which book?)
My bad, the first time I looked, from a google link, it didn't require a login. You can get a login here: http://www.bugmenot.com/ . The book is "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of American's Wealthy", which is why I've used american millionaires as an example. It's well worth a read from what I hear. I've only read the webpage.
First, frugality. I'm sure that has an effect, but why this would be bigger in the US than anywhere else I cannot see.
I agree entirely. I just don't know of a similar book about other countries.
Plus, while frugality will pay off under specific circumstances (possibly the majority), there are many business endeavors where it is bad for you.
I took the frugality to be applied to the personal income rather than a business practise. Don't have a lifestyle of senseless consumption, rather than don't invest in your business.
Dunno what this says about the control one has, but my gut feeling is again that this still does not mean that hard working equals rich any more in the US than in other places.
If we could use the word influence rather than control so we are clear what we are talking about. I think there are many other factors than hard work involved. What I mean is, having influence, but not control is that you don't have a guarantee, but you have a reasonable chance of obtaining the desired outcome. It's not hopelessly futile. Hard work does not guarantee rich, but laziness is pretty close to a guarantee of poor. Hard work is not the key, but it's a key.
There exist however many hard working rice farmers and pest controllers that are not rich. Again, I am not completely convinced.
My question is: are there any significant differences between the ones who do and do not become rich. Specifically, what is different about the rich that someone else could implement in their own lives, which pretty much comes down to habits, attitudes and beliefs.
An honest question: what about failure? Don't you have to take into account when juding about control over your life that in Europe there is a social safety net?
If you don't have control, failure is possible. Learn, start again, don't give up. Or depend on charity I suppose. Get a job. Something. In the end, every country has a 100% fatality rate. If you haven't become part of that statistic yet, do whatever you can. What you can't change, learn to live with. Failing in business or finance is not the end of the road in most cases. Plenty of successful people have failed first. In any case, I'm an aussie, not an american. We have a safety net. Several years ago, my wife and I came to the conclusion that the safety net will probably not survive the retirement of the baby boomers. We decided it was best to learn to live without it now, before everyone else did too. I used to do casual work, taking less than two weeks to find work after a contract finished. After refusing the safety net, I got to the point of finding work usually within 3 hours, not more than 2 days. I find that I become a lot more resourcefull if it is possible for me to fail. Now I have full time employment.
If in the US your business goes wrong in spite of hard work and other good qualities you have (say, you had no health insurance and got sick), what about the influence over your life then?
Indeed, that is exactly what it means to have influe
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
I'd really suggest you take a look at a book called "Crisis of Abundance" by Arnold Kling. It talks about why Americans spend so much on healthcare, what we do and don't get for it, whether our higher level of spending is necessarily a bad thing, and some possible reform type ideas. It's one of the better books I've seen on the subject. It's a truely TANSTAAFL look at healthcare.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Apparently the author of this treasonous garbage has a yearning to spend a few years outside the good ol' USA, in a little island paradise, called Guantanamo Bay. Just give Fatherland Security a call with your contact details and the nice men in the black helicopters will take care of all your travel and accommodation requirements.
You have good points, I appreciate you took the time. And sorry for having said "control" instead of "influence" again, it was not on purpose :)
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
My husband and I have kicked around going Down Under for a while, and my friend, a kiwi, tells me to go if I have the chance. I've been researching it for a while now, and well, every since I saw the Discovery Atlas program on it, I'm *so* excited. But... of course, it may take a while. A permanent decision is pending the 2008 elections. If Hillary gets elected, I'm so gone, I don't care where I gotta go.
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
i mean,
i had a sig, once..
My wife needs non-emergency MRIs from time to time, and she gets same-day appointments. I can't imagine how long she'd have to wait if she were in canada. I guess it wouldn't be so bad because she knows a year in advance when she's going to get them. She could just get on the list with everybody else, wait her year, and then get an MRI.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Wow... I'd love to, but damn. Uh, no. *sigh* I'll just keep hoping the CIA returns my calls. :P
:)
:)
I'm JOKING!
I'm also hella-over-qualified for those positions, so I'm out.
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
Why are you assuming houses are as well built in New Zealand as in Denmark?
If I lived in Canada, my "free" health care would cost over $30,000.00 in higher taxes. Thanks, but no thanks.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
There is some bizarre behaviour in France -- a weird mix of distrust of government, yet 3/4 of students want to be civil servants for some reason....
-Stu
Think about how much you enjoy your "free" healthcare every time you pay that 17.5% VAT, Mr. Armchair Economist.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
I note that anonymous cowards are the only persons who tend to reply to these posts.
The coward posting the parent has obviously not read any history. Similar things have happened in the US and we have teetered on the edge of outright dictatorship a number of times. I would point out the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 that were passed by the President's party and signed by the President in a time of "crisis" where it was felt that the United States would soon have to defend itself in a war with France. The Sedition Act of 1918 was passed by the President's own party and signed by the President during a time of actual war.
What you are assuming is that I am arguing for a Democratic or Republican cause. I suppose I could say I have never been a Federalist, having not lived back in the 1700s. And I am not sure if I am a Woodrow Wilson Democrat, not having lived in World War I and knowing that the Democratic Party back then stood for things that today's Democratic Party does not stand for, including racial segregation, Jim Crow laws in the South and other beliefs not tolerated in today's society.
What I am talking about is how a particular party overreaches when it sees no impediment to its power. In this case, the Republican Party has given the Executive Branch incredible power to violate the individual civil liberties of any person, whether citizen or non-citizen for its own ends without any check from another branch of government, including the Judiciary. In fact, if you read the law setting up the tribunals, these military courts have no relation to civilian courts and there is no provision for an appeal to any civilian court (something that an ordinary private or seaman does have under our military court system -- though rarely used).
Furthermore, when I speak of a political party, I am also referring to my father's comment, equating the actions of one political party in power in the US with the actions of one political party in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. When it comes right down to it, John Adams was handed the same extraordinary power to go after anyone he didn't like with impunity -- just as Hitler did. This gave Adams absolute dictatorial power over Americans as well as foreign nationals living in the country in the same way that the law currently gives GW Bush absolute power to imprison, detain, torture and hold any person he can lay his hands on and call "enemy combatant."
I am as troubled by this as I am of Woodrow Wilson's powers as stated in the Sedition Act of 1918 and for the same reason: It is an agressive challenge to the Bill of Rights in our Constitution -- something these Presidents and the members of Congress who passed these laws have sworn to uphold, protect and defend.
Now, I realize the poster was just "shooting from the hip," but a clear, dispassionate consideration here is urged.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
So much to love here. Burgers at Casino el Camino, The Flametrick Subs at Beerland every month, SXSW, no dress code ANYWHERE, migas for breakfast, Honky, Grady, The Elephant Room, The Continental Club, hell I could go on forever.
Keep Austin Weird!
I'm all for respecting other cultures, but this is Canada, not a gathering place for everyone and their brother who want to change the land from under me.
First, we "Canadians" stole the land from the first nations after we slaughtered them. Your righteous protectionist stance is hypocritical here.
Secondly, don't try to cover your bigoted intolerant stance with a tolerant tone: you're effectively saying: "i'm not racist, but i just don't think certain people should gather here".
Maybe if you don't like Canada's multicultural policy, YOU shouldn't gather here and should move down the US, instead of the US moving up here. Why should the entire country change for you?
As a student of American history, I realize that there are times in our past where things have been as bad as some of the things now are. The difference, I would argue, is that what we've got right now is all the isolated problems from American history, and they're all happening again, at once, and we were supposed to have gotten past all them at this point. Not only that, but back for those old problems, even with the old problems, we were still far and away better then anywhere else. That's not the case anymore. There's countries out there with better health care, better opportunities, better education, better civil rights, better diplomacy, better economy, and the list goes on. America is not the best country anymore. It may still be marginally the big dog, it may still be marginally the most powerful in terms of it's military (which I'm a part of), but in a side by side comparison there's a lot of better places.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
Yes real wealth is what one can do with their money ie it's buying power.
Even dealing with different regions in the US a person with 100K in the midwest is far more wealthy then a person with 100K in LA or NYC.
Also money with out freedom is worthless as what good is it if you cannot use it as you please?
Though on the freedom issue someone brought up earilier in the US it seems more wealth does often mean greater freedom ie you can afford a laywer if the government tries to over step it's bounds.
Other countries have had large numbers of people emigrate over the past few centuries, for a number of different reasons. Maybe it's just the Americans' turn?
There's one major difference, though. Most of the people who talk about leaving seem to be among the best and the brightest. That's not a good sign if you want your country to remain an economic power. If political instability is really the driving force behind this desire to leave you certainly have it in your power to do something about it. So get cracking!
First of all, in the "real world", everything has a correlation (either positive or negative). The only question is whether or not that correlation is statistically significant. I started off with a "real world" example that was trivial enough to understand, but you started trying to get technical on whether I was really talking about correlation or not, so I went to the mathematics to give you an example.
But, alright, I'll try to give you an example that is (a) "real world", (b) simple enough to easily understand, and (c) mathematically precise. Assume I throw a ball in an arc. Would you argue that its height is correlated with its forward position?
Also, we're talking about statistics, which is a branch of mathematics, and not philosophy.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I'm not overtly concerned with being with people the same color as me, and I'm not bound to African culture (above all, I'm just an ignorant American :) I don't mind if the population is mostly white, but I am concerned with being viewed fairly and being able to say hello or hail a cab without being viewed as a either a threat or a beggar. Europe has disturbed me lately. Racist chants at soccer games? I can't even fathom what it would be like if the MLB Playoffs had people chanting racial slurs at black or Latino players. I'm still interested in the Far East, but I've heard stories and accounts about how racist they can be there with foreigners and minorities. Even in Japan, where I heard blacks are (were?) the "it" thing, it's still racism based on stereotypes and such.
I appreciate the advice and the reply, and I'll keep my eye out for that movie.
Here's my story.
In 2004, I swore I was going to leave the United States. At the time I was in graduate school, and utterly convinced that I was planning to leave the country upon completion of my degree.
It's 2006, and I'm still here.
The problem, it will come as no surprise to many of you, is money. After getting out of graduate school, I had no savings and tried to find full-time work. Unfortunately, there just wasn't any full-time work - the best I could get was contract work and freelance work, without benifits, and in my best months, I could make rent. In my worst months, I couldn't.
My problem was mostly caused by the fact that I'm smack-dab in the middle of a nasty job area; jobs that require Master's degrees are typically very hard to find, are very rare, and are very specialized if you've got a M.A. in any liberal art. I did try to apply for temp jobs and full-time "joe jobs" but they weren't hiring either, I kept getting rejected, as I was overqualified - and flat out told this, in many cases.
Eventually, I had to start traveling across America - I was based in Williamburg, VA, and interviewed for jobs in Richmond, VA, Washington DC, Philadelphia, PA, and Bennington, VT; phone interviews included several in San Francisco (including Wired Magazine, actually - I applied for the Gadgets internship and got up to the interview stage.)
I lined up an interview with a company in Austin, TX and agreed to fly in (on my parent's dime) - then hurriedly applied for other jobs, informing them I'd be in Austin during a short time period. The job I applied for kept me waiting but another position I applied for finally paid off. I am now fully employed, making a salary of $45k/yr, working in my field. But if you count the times I was contracting and freelancing and couldn't make ends meet, I've been unemployed for about a year and a half...
I've got some "golden handcuffs" on me right now - my sign-on bonus goes bye-bye if I leave before two years are up. That's fine, I figure it'll take about 2 years for me to save up enough money to leave. I still intend to do it, and hopefully I'll have enough money to visit places before deciding on a country. But I think it's a bit depressing - and sad - that Bush will (presumably) be out of office by the time I plan to leave.
I still plan to leave, though. This country got broken during the 2004 election, and once something gets broken like that, you can't put it back together.
My top choices are:
New Zealand (best government, but I'm worried about there being not much to do - I'm an urban guy),
Germany (Perfect if it wasn't for the language barrier - I can learn the language but I'm better off learning through immersion,)
The U.K. (Yes, they're U.S. lite, but even though their government is screwed up as ours is, the -people- there aren't as screwed up as ours is. The U.S. has the government it's people want, generally, while the U.K.'s government is mostly based the flukes of the 3-party FPTP system,)
Canada (Really an obvious choice, but if you could live anywhere in the world...)
Australia (John Howard's government sucks, but the people have bicameral proportional electoral system that makes sense... sort of the flip-side of the U.K., really.)
I'd like to get your feedback on this.
I've known quite a few Americans that came to my country to live with intentions of remaining here the rest of their lives; never to return to America. Well, most of them, except for a very small percentage, eventually return.
The ones that remained always send their teenage daughters and in rare cases a few teenage sons back to states; using education as an excuse. The kids never come back.
Ps: Our kids, on average, graduate form high school around the age of 16 and score much better than their American counter parts. They graduate from junior college at 18 and can enter the work force at this time fully prepared. I know this from first hand experience, I have 8 American nieces and nephews.
None of us get to choose our position in the hierarchy. We can choose to compete very hard, but that's no guarantee of a successful outcome. We can choose to try and feel satisfied with what we have, but that's no guarantee either. But because it's a zero-sum game (you cannot improve your standing without demoting someone else), an infinite amount of effort can be consumed in the pursuit of relative positioning without ever delivering a net benefit. This is an example of a situation where trading a little bit of personal freedom can achieve a net social gain. It's hardly the only one.
Skipping down to your last paragraph, my argument wasn't "for the children," but simply "homo economicus is a heartless bastard." I interpreted your original post as claiming that it's unreasonable to feel bad that someone is better off than you. It might be nice if that were the case (jealousy can be very damaging to the social fabric), but that view struck me as very similar to the homo economicus view of humans as rational agents who always evaluate decisions in terms of economic benefits.
I never said that, given the same amount of money to spend, everyone would spend it in the same way. Nor did I say that everyone would derive the same amount of happiness from their choices. Nor did I say that we must stop anyone from ever choosing to do things that are against their own better interests (though as a society we sometimes do exactly that). Finally, I've never said that an ideal society is one wherein everyone has exactly the same amount of wealth. From a practical standpoint, I recognize the need for economic incentives. From a personal liberty standpoint, a society that could distribute wealth so equally would have to be utterly totalitarian.
But I also believe that extreme inequities of wealth are poisonous to a democratic society. They breed resentment and unhappiness, make people far too eager to consume, and turn us against each other. It's not a matter of one person choosing the simple house and the fancy vacations while another chooses a huge house and simple vacations. We live in a world where one person has the huge house, the fancy vacations, the top-notch health care, the personal trainer, the butler, and the Ferrari. The other person lives on Ramen, splits a cramped two bedroom apartment with three friends, and scrubs the first person's toilet. Worst of all, the first person can more easily get the ear of our elected representatives, and therefore can rewrite the laws to keep themselves entrenched in their privileged position.
The only thing that holds the system together, I believe, is the "American Dream": the promise that, if we work really really hard, any of us can have the good life. But by objective measures, wealth inequity is increasing and class lines are increasingly stratified. Once people give up on the dream, things could turn very ugly very quickly.
But that's a rant for another day. Today, let's just leave it at this: freedom and equality are orthogonal. They're not always in sync, they're not always in tension, and just about all of us value both. It's unfair of me to paint you as someone who doesn't care about the poor, and it's unfair of you to paint me as someone who wants the government to micromanage our everyday decisions. We're really just arguing about where to draw which lines.
Now excuse me while I go pat myself on the back for being all deep and nuanced in my reasoning. Yay me.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
I am not. I am mocking the kiwis for not having well built, insulated houses when their climate obviously makes them desirable.
-Lasse
it's because traditionally people heated only 2 rooms in their houses in the winter and th houses were built with this in mind (living room and kitchen). We have a 100 year old house in Dunedin that's been mostly retrofitted with insulation (just finished the last floor a few weeks ago) some of the tall ceilings have been lowered too which helps a lot - we have US-style central heating (gas) and a wood fire which keeps us very toasty in the winter
I left the USA 60 days ago. I moved to Canada on a work visa. I plan on staying at all costs.
I moved to Canada 5 years ago. I'm not currently a citizen but I don't want to vote or run for office anyway. I'm content here and sadly I don't miss not living in the U.S., it's getting creapy there.
Nicely put. Perhaps a bit too subtle for the average gun-wielder though ;)
I think the idea is that people are naturally busy and creative, in some way. By providing for immediate human needs such as food and heat and shelter, you prevent animalism, such as theft in order to survive, etc. You also (according to Maslow) free people to think about loftier things such as science and helping humanity.
This is exactly why more socialist countries help citizens more. Because, by helping the members of the society you live in, you help yourself to live in a better environment.
Yes.
The Americans are as free to leave their country to live elsewhere as the people who CAME to America was free to leave their corrupt and evil parent-nations.
Of course, there's no new unexplored land to move to, but to require Americans to stay and clean up "their" mess is to hold them to a higher standard than the people who willingly moved there in the first place; and I am loath to do that.
After all, mine (Sweden) was one of the nations who suffered from the people fleeing to the states, and we've done kind of okay since. Not that great, not that bad.
We've had to do things that are not really nice (trading with both sides in a war that threatened to engulf us).
We no longer have the military/economic power to force others to bend to our will - or else!
We're still giving aid (indirectly) to tinpot dictators, and probably should stop being so darn smug about our social system.
You'll survive the émigrés. A bit poorer perhaps for the people you loose, but possibly learning a bit of humility - that there are places elsewhere that some consider better than your current place, and that you may have to change or people will continue to go elsewhere.
Wrong. Wealth is wealth. 100K is 100K. That's like saying a ton of bricks weighs more than a ton of feathers.
Buying power is different from wealth. Wealth is a measure of accumulated resources. Buying power is a measure of how you can use it.
This should be obvious.
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That's absolutely right! Just like N. Korea did. I notice that Uncle Sam's not complaining about them at all. What's that? You're now trying to argue that there's some big, principled difference between (legally) renouncing a previously-signed treaty and never having signed it in the first place? I suppose you weren't looking when the U.S. renounced the ABM Treaty just a few years ago. No, there's no hypocrisy going on here at all....No sir!
I used to be convinced that there are two sides to every question, but I'm not so sure anymore....
New Zealand. Why not? Because it's too far away from family
Hey chuck, I read your post, went to the URL, and decided to apply =). Thanks for the heads up.
You know in America something like 43% of the population believes the Earth is around 10,000 years old? The politicians all play to that. Even the supposedly less-right-wing dems talk about God all the freakin' time. God must be blessing America so often He has no time to do much of anything else.
Europe isn't like that. Politicians do stupid things, they trick people by manipulating their fear or racism, etc. etc., just like in the US, but at least the huge "if you vote against me you're going against what God wants" manipulation doesn't come up. They have to at least pretend to use reason.
About the headscarf thing... they were trying to keep the schools a secular institution (which I agree with), but screwed it up by not being consistent, and also picking something that's almost impossible to really nail down. Does letting students wear a headscarf really endorse religion? Can they reasonably ban everything that's remotely connected to religion? Yeah, not so much.
But that's simple stupidity with maybe a little racism mixed in, not preaching.
I can say first and foremost the biggest obstacle to emmigrating to England/UK are your immigration policies. You all are apparently okay with letting practically the whole world into England __EXCEPT__ for Americans. They're good for Yankee tourist dollars and then they're supposed to go home. I'd like very much to live and work in England. Maybe not for the rest of my life perhaps, but definitely for 5-10 years.
From the British Embassy website: http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_
These guidelines are intended for US citizens wishing to work in the United Kingdom.
Employment Requiring Work Permits
Before entering Britain to take up employment, American citizens must have a work permit. The Immigration & Nationality Directorate administers the Work Permit Scheme. Exceptions are made only for the categories of permit-free employment outlined below.
Application for the work permit must be made by the prospective employer in Britain. Individuals cannot apply for a work permit on their own behalf. Applications must be made by the Britain-based employer.
Here are the immigration rules from Immigration and Nationality Directorate: http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawandpolicy/imm