Not to sound like a dick but those VB jockeys that *look more compentant* are. I am not saying they are better coders or you know less.
But they keywords you gave were *listen* and *provide*. It sounds the others guys had supperior tools and listened to the client and got it done.
There are different kinds of programming required. IT seems the team you are on is based on simple ide based database apps under tight constraints. a couple of people who know VS and not software engineering are more efficient.
If you are good with computer science and web page development then you need to develop and work with people who do sql programming or specialize in situations where algorithms and methods are more valued.
The last thing I suggest is perhaps think about why these guys are looked upon so well? Learn vs.net? Go ask for training or sign up for some nightime community college classes. Get some dietel & dietel books about rad and hack at home. Learn more about business. Taking a single macro-economics course would help too. I am taking that now to learn more about business.
If you are a great programmer than you should be able to do run-arounds with guys in VB. Last I had a presentation at my old LUG from someone who runs a supercomputer cluster with Linux. Basically his argument that if you gave programmers an unlimited budget and time frame to develop a flight simulator, then you would end up with a full plane. Maybe your overengineering yourself for programs that do simple tasks? Something to think about.
Years ago I took a non credited course in java programming. I was thrown off and confused. Why all the "."'s? What is public and private and why all the redundancy is needed for a simple hello world?
I learned how to program with MSBasic and I played around with vb3 and vb4. I could type the code but not understand anything. I eventually witbdrawn from the course.
Later I learned perl scripting using simple functions and I bought a college book to retry programming "C++ How to program by Dietel & Dietel".
The book was college level and taught you to write code and how the computer would read and use it. Yes it was big with lots and lots of explanations for everything. By the time I got to chapter 6 and chapter 7 I was introduced to object oriented programming. After that I GOT IT! Java is now making sense and I know what the dots are for and what public and private is and how the api's work.
The point was I needed to learn how to code and think like the computer. Ide's are bad to learn in but not bad to use. I still have not totally finished that book on C++ and I am contemplating about buying the newer edition for C# or Java to learn more about its advanced objected oriented features as well as hot to implement a structure.
A good book or a college course is needed to be a good programmer. Not a cute program.
Also I have been reading posts here about sr level unix administrators making 25k a year in places like Canada who have cs degrees because the demand for native american and canadian programmers are low with an oversupply from the.com age.
I do not know if its true but I see posts like that and replies stating that is how much they are worth.
I was giving an example i was familiar with h1b1 visas and todays climate of hiring in certain parts of the country. I imagine in places with more industry that programmers are paid alot more then in rural areas.
I was referring to the fact that people applying today with 10 years experience are willing to work for 35k a year. Not that its his price ceiling. There are not alot of employers in Memphis.
Potential employees in 1999 came in they all demanded no less than 75k a year with everything less than a sr title in their resume. This is why my brother wanted H1B1 visas. They worked harder and he could work within the budget. I believe he likes to give jr developers projects in VB and access while the sr guys did the hard core coding. So he has no issues
Today he still pays people what they are worth according to the department of labors guidelines with other people in his area. Fedex and perhaps the headquarters for Holiday inn are the only real industry in that part of the country so the wages are quite low for that reason.
But yes not all h1b1 visas are for cheap labor and the parent wanted to know if that were true. If you want cheap than outsource is the answer.
Think corporate... actually think american corporation mindsets?
They want to support only one platform that everyone is trained to use. Now which company do you think that is?
Revised (serious list) from the other guy posting... 1.) Corporations already have Visual Studio.net and guess what? It includes C#.net. Now which webserver do you think it runs on? 2.) IIS is already included on the cdrom with windows 3.) MCSE's know how to or could learn how to use IIS 4.) Nobody ever got fired for using Microsoft software 5.) PHB's love Microsoft 6.) Most intranet environments use ASP and IIS anyway as visual studio is widely used and deployed. So their programmers are already trained. 7.) Geeks use Windows at home so therefor are familiar with Windows 8.) People who make decisions on software usage read glossy brochures with buzzwords and dont read/. Infact many could just be like this guy. 9.) There is a false believe that using Microsoft would equal a fully integrated platform where everything works seaminglessly and TCO is lower. 10.) There is some minimial integration with things like using NT's PDC database (IISAM??) to authenticate users. (Note I do not run IIS nor am I a programmer) 11.) They smoke crack:-)
Mind you I am not saying the 10 reasons are correct. But rather its what corporate america believes to a large extent and choses IIS over apache. Real hosting companies and individuals happen to know better otherwise.:-)
I assume the boatload of the costs are 1.) Hiring a team of engineers and scientists to work 2 years to design it 2.) Putting it in space 3.) Having a team of engineers and scientists monitor both probes in space and now on mars for years on end.
The cost of using cheaper parts is mute and far dwarfed by the 3 things above. Even if you could shave off a few months of development by not being so redundant you still have a huge price tag that is similiar to the final one chosen.
No the average programmer in Tennesse makes 35k for under 3 years experience according to county and state levels. Perfectly legally and what a programer is worth.
Today someone with 5+ years of experience may be worth45-50k ayear in that part of the country.
I take it the moderators disagree but that is my brothers viewpoint and he is right in one area. Someone out of school SHOULD NOT BE MAKING 75k+ with no experience! Indians were willing to come in at 40k. That is more than enough to live in that part of the country if your young.
Keep in mind my brother does not pay for 40k a year for those with 10 years experience. Its just that today people are begging to work for 35k a year and move into an apartment rather than flip burgers because the economy is bad thanks to outsourcing.
But in his mind H1B1 visas were never about hiring cheap workers. Just was used for those willing to work for *average* wages based on the department of labor when americans acted all snotty and demanding. He had a right to look for value. Can you blame him?
They have disciplinary problems in the schools out there and jersey has a high precentage of lawsuits. I wanted to go to Pope John because I was being bullied and harrased daily in elementry school and I was hoping they could protect me.
Re:From the well-duh dept.
on
The H-1B Swindle
·
· Score: 1, Troll
My brother works for a fortune100 company in the deep south.
He only pays H1B1 visa wages based on average salary employees in his county. The american programmers refused to work for under 70grand a year for jr software development jobs. The average pay for a jr programmer is around 34k a year. So he hired indians for 40k a year to get it done. Plain and simple.
Still above the average pay scale I may add.
Then he gets all angry when he reads slashdot and hears software developers complaining. IN the.com bubble none of you wanted to work for a reasonable wage. Why should he care now? In his view the H1B1 visas only brought in qualified workers for the averate rates and it was never about a way to cut costs.
Now the situation is improving and programmers with 10 years of experience are willing to work for 30k (pay went down) but still the Indians are usually more qualified and proved their loyality during the.com rush so he prefers indians unless he can find a good american to do the job.
apt-get is not recommended as versions of debians packages could conflict with identical versions of the rpms that are already installed or will be installed.
Unless apt-get knows about the existance of rpm's I think it may cause more dependancy problems and it makes me weary.
If you want to apt-get than you should use debian in my opinion.
I looked. I found third party mirrors with full multimedia enabled players but no luck on postgresql and XFCE. Unless of course I am blind?
I refuse to pay for rpm based distro's because they go obsolete in a matter of months leaving you to rpm hell if you want to upgrade. Its just a way to keep you on the pay treadmill. I spend hundreds of dollars on distro's before highspeed internet access and before I discovered FreeBSD which I could get for low cost at cheapbytes.
Pro: - Very easy to use. - Great distro for geeks who want to work in linux and not on linux spending a weekend or two to set everything up. - Its a more professionally and less buggy compared to past versions of the distro and Novell brings a corporate appeal. - SuSE10 automatically mounts windows paritions by default and sets up icons to the drives automatically no matter which wm you use. Great way to save time - SuSE10 devfs automatically mounts devices and creates desktop shortcuts to the device such as my ipod-mini. No need to do it manually and adding a shortcut errr link
Cons: - SuSE intentionally crippled its media player citing patent concerns on some codecs - Nvidia can be added but the drivers are known to not be as stable as the windows versions. Bad if you are a cad user - Software such as XFCE4 and other classics have been removed from the software repository. This means you have to install it yourself. - Buggy still but alot better. I can't log into another other wm but gnome. If I create another user account I can do it with that account. Just not the one I setup. GDM/KDM will always pick gnome no matter which wm I select. Also my MS scrolling mouse which worked in previous versions of SuSE no longer works. - KDM/GDM is hiddin and automatic logins are the default. This drove me absolutely mad as I like to log into different wm's. GDM configuration was removed from the gnome menu's. After pulling my hair out for 15 minutes I found it under the add user in yast?? - Yast is still slow as always.
So its a mix for me. I am keeping netbsd for serious work and SuSE in the meanwhile to do my regular work in since I dont have a good 2-3 weeks to configure NetBSD for my tastes.
I was a big fan of his 2004 election blog (www.electoralvote.org??). I used it daily behind slashdot during the campaign last year and had no idea Tanenbaum was behind it.
Cnn always had links to this mysterious site which studies how the election was going mathmatically and what things meant politically.
I thought he was a jerk from reading the flamewar comments to Linus but my views changed after it was revealed that Tanenbaum was the author.
Anyway I like Tanenbaum and respect more and more. I hope he puts his site back up next year for the local elections.
RMS wants the GPL enforcable to protect the copyrights. Its not just a copyright but the gnu license gives people more power but like a eula is still a license.
Most gnu products should include it by default where it could be more binding.
Yes Wasabi systems makes netbsd products for embedded devices so they are biased, but most of what is said here is true.
If you work for this mysterious company you might want to let someone know. Offering the modified tools online and bundled with the cd is a good idea. If not then you may want to use some posix equilivants and BSD licensed material to avoid putting your employer under liability.
The GPL is not perfect which is why I am a bsd bigot.:-)
However linksys and netgear come with moddified linux and no source code in clear violation of the GPL. The FSF doesn't have the budget to sue so they keep intentionally violating the GPL. What are they going to do?
Because of the fact that if I use mysql at work, sco could sue my employer and my job would be on the line.
Paranoid? Yes, but this is SCO and all the people they sued so far were Openserver customers switching to Linux. What was the deal anyway between mysql and sco? Did sco get some special IP sharing agreement? How do I know?
Unless they rewritten wine in c++ its going to have problems emulating c++ features like objects really really bad. I am not bashing C, but rather pointing out that rewriting the language to mimick an operating system heavily built on C++ is a mistake.
Gnome 1.x learned this lesson by emulating c++ in C because the unix C purists thought it would be less bloated and more cool. It was fine until object oriented programing became a factor.
Most of it is due ot the fact that windows is complex and very proprietary with information hidden on the inner details. There are thousands of lines of code in windows based programs that simple workaround bugs. You have to actually duplicate the bug so the code works properly. Its a mess.
Slashdot Mirror
I hear your fustrations
Not to sound like a dick but those VB jockeys that *look more compentant* are. I am not saying they are better coders or you know less.
But they keywords you gave were *listen* and *provide*. It sounds the others guys had supperior tools and listened to the client and got it done.
There are different kinds of programming required. IT seems the team you are on is based on simple ide based database apps under tight constraints. a couple of people who know VS and not software engineering are more efficient.
If you are good with computer science and web page development then you need to develop and work with people who do sql programming or specialize in situations where algorithms and methods are more valued.
The last thing I suggest is perhaps think about why these guys are looked upon so well? Learn vs.net? Go ask for training or sign up for some nightime community college classes. Get some dietel & dietel books about rad and hack at home. Learn more about business. Taking a single macro-economics course would help too. I am taking that now to learn more about business.
If you are a great programmer than you should be able to do run-arounds with guys in VB. Last I had a presentation at my old LUG from someone who runs a supercomputer cluster with Linux. Basically his argument that if you gave programmers an unlimited budget and time frame to develop a flight simulator, then you would end up with a full plane. Maybe your overengineering yourself for programs that do simple tasks? Something to think about.
Years ago I took a non credited course in java programming. I was thrown off and confused. Why all the "."'s? What is public and private and why all the redundancy is needed for a simple hello world?
I learned how to program with MSBasic and I played around with vb3 and vb4. I could type the code but not understand anything. I eventually witbdrawn from the course.
Later I learned perl scripting using simple functions and I bought a college book to retry programming "C++ How to program by Dietel & Dietel".
The book was college level and taught you to write code and how the computer would read and use it. Yes it was big with lots and lots of explanations for everything. By the time I got to chapter 6 and chapter 7 I was introduced to object oriented programming. After that I GOT IT! Java is now making sense and I know what the dots are for and what public and private is and how the api's work.
The point was I needed to learn how to code and think like the computer. Ide's are bad to learn in but not bad to use. I still have not totally finished that book on C++ and I am contemplating about buying the newer edition for C# or Java to learn more about its advanced objected oriented features as well as hot to implement a structure.
A good book or a college course is needed to be a good programmer. Not a cute program.
Are you sure thats not a debian poster?
Also I have been reading posts here about sr level unix administrators making 25k a year in places like Canada who have cs degrees because the demand for native american and canadian programmers are low with an oversupply from the .com age.
I do not know if its true but I see posts like that and replies stating that is how much they are worth.
I was giving an example i was familiar with h1b1 visas and todays climate of hiring in certain parts of the country. I imagine in places with more industry that programmers are paid alot more then in rural areas.
I was referring to the fact that people applying today with 10 years experience are willing to work for 35k a year. Not that its his price ceiling. There are not alot of employers in Memphis.
Potential employees in 1999 came in they all demanded no less than 75k a year with everything less than a sr title in their resume. This is why my brother wanted H1B1 visas. They worked harder and he could work within the budget. I believe he likes to give jr developers projects in VB and access while the sr guys did the hard core coding. So he has no issues
Today he still pays people what they are worth according to the department of labors guidelines with other people in his area. Fedex and perhaps the headquarters for Holiday inn are the only real industry in that part of the country so the wages are quite low for that reason.
But yes not all h1b1 visas are for cheap labor and the parent wanted to know if that were true. If you want cheap than outsource is the answer.
Think corporate ... actually think american corporation mindsets?
... /. Infact many could just be like this guy. :-)
:-)
They want to support only one platform that everyone is trained to use. Now which company do you think that is?
Revised (serious list) from the other guy posting
1.) Corporations already have Visual Studio.net and guess what? It includes C#.net. Now which webserver do you think it runs on?
2.) IIS is already included on the cdrom with windows
3.) MCSE's know how to or could learn how to use IIS
4.) Nobody ever got fired for using Microsoft software
5.) PHB's love Microsoft
6.) Most intranet environments use ASP and IIS anyway as visual studio is widely used and deployed. So their programmers are already trained.
7.) Geeks use Windows at home so therefor are familiar with Windows
8.) People who make decisions on software usage read glossy brochures with buzzwords and dont read
9.) There is a false believe that using Microsoft would equal a fully integrated platform where everything works seaminglessly and TCO is lower.
10.) There is some minimial integration with things like using NT's PDC database (IISAM??) to authenticate users. (Note I do not run IIS nor am I a programmer)
11.) They smoke crack
Mind you I am not saying the 10 reasons are correct. But rather its what corporate america believes to a large extent and choses IIS over apache. Real hosting companies and individuals happen to know better otherwise.
I assume the boatload of the costs are
1.) Hiring a team of engineers and scientists to work 2 years to design it
2.) Putting it in space
3.) Having a team of engineers and scientists monitor both probes in space and now on mars for years on end.
The cost of using cheaper parts is mute and far dwarfed by the 3 things above. Even if you could shave off a few months of development by not being so redundant you still have a huge price tag that is similiar to the final one chosen.
Might as well invest in the quality at this pace.
No the average programmer in Tennesse makes 35k for under 3 years experience according to county and state levels. Perfectly legally and what a programer is worth.
Today someone with 5+ years of experience may be worth45-50k ayear in that part of the country.
I take it the moderators disagree but that is my brothers viewpoint and he is right in one area. Someone out of school SHOULD NOT BE MAKING 75k+ with no experience! Indians were willing to come in at 40k. That is more than enough to live in that part of the country if your young.
Keep in mind my brother does not pay for 40k a year for those with 10 years experience. Its just that today people are begging to work for 35k a year and move into an apartment rather than flip burgers because the economy is bad thanks to outsourcing.
But in his mind H1B1 visas were never about hiring cheap workers. Just was used for those willing to work for *average* wages based on the department of labor when americans acted all snotty and demanding. He had a right to look for value. Can you blame him?
I had old buddies who went there.
Its a strict school. Backwards too I may add.
They have disciplinary problems in the schools out there and jersey has a high precentage of lawsuits. I wanted to go to Pope John because I was being bullied and harrased daily in elementry school and I was hoping they could protect me.
My brother works for a fortune100 company in the deep south.
.com bubble none of you wanted to work for a reasonable wage. Why should he care now? In his view the H1B1 visas only brought in qualified workers for the averate rates and it was never about a way to cut costs.
.com rush so he prefers indians unless he can find a good american to do the job.
He only pays H1B1 visa wages based on average salary employees in his county. The american programmers refused to work for under 70grand a year for jr software development jobs. The average pay for a jr programmer is around 34k a year. So he hired indians for 40k a year to get it done. Plain and simple.
Still above the average pay scale I may add.
Then he gets all angry when he reads slashdot and hears software developers complaining. IN the
Now the situation is improving and programmers with 10 years of experience are willing to work for 30k (pay went down) but still the Indians are usually more qualified and proved their loyality during the
apt-get is not recommended as versions of debians packages could conflict with identical versions of the rpms that are already installed or will be installed.
Unless apt-get knows about the existance of rpm's I think it may cause more dependancy problems and it makes me weary.
If you want to apt-get than you should use debian in my opinion.
No they are not.
I looked. I found third party mirrors with full multimedia enabled players but no luck on postgresql and XFCE. Unless of course I am blind?
I refuse to pay for rpm based distro's because they go obsolete in a matter of months leaving you to rpm hell if you want to upgrade. Its just a way to keep you on the pay treadmill. I spend hundreds of dollars on distro's before highspeed internet access and before I discovered FreeBSD which I could get for low cost at cheapbytes.
I do not like the linux at all and use to Free and now netbsd. FreeBSD is no longer reliable on my computer so I am screwed. Sigh
I wonder how bad this would run in software opengl with mesa?
Pro:
- Very easy to use.
- Great distro for geeks who want to work in linux and not on linux spending a weekend or two to set everything up.
- Its a more professionally and less buggy compared to past versions of the distro and Novell brings a corporate appeal.
- SuSE10 automatically mounts windows paritions by default and sets up icons to the drives automatically no matter which wm you use. Great way to save time
- SuSE10 devfs automatically mounts devices and creates desktop shortcuts to the device such as my ipod-mini. No need to do it manually and adding a shortcut errr link
Cons:
- SuSE intentionally crippled its media player citing patent concerns on some codecs
- Nvidia can be added but the drivers are known to not be as stable as the windows versions. Bad if you are a cad user
- Software such as XFCE4 and other classics have been removed from the software repository. This means you have to install it yourself.
- Buggy still but alot better. I can't log into another other wm but gnome. If I create another user account I can do it with that account. Just not the one I setup. GDM/KDM will always pick gnome no matter which wm I select. Also my MS scrolling mouse which worked in previous versions of SuSE no longer works.
- KDM/GDM is hiddin and automatic logins are the default. This drove me absolutely mad as I like to log into different wm's. GDM configuration was removed from the gnome menu's. After pulling my hair out for 15 minutes I found it under the add user in yast??
- Yast is still slow as always.
So its a mix for me. I am keeping netbsd for serious work and SuSE in the meanwhile to do my regular work in since I dont have a good 2-3 weeks to configure NetBSD for my tastes.
I was a big fan of his 2004 election blog (www.electoralvote.org??). I used it daily behind slashdot during the campaign last year and had no idea Tanenbaum was behind it.
Cnn always had links to this mysterious site which studies how the election was going mathmatically and what things meant politically.
I thought he was a jerk from reading the flamewar comments to Linus but my views changed after it was revealed that Tanenbaum was the author.
Anyway I like Tanenbaum and respect more and more. I hope he puts his site back up next year for the local elections.
I thought gnu stood for the gnu public license.
RMS wants the GPL enforcable to protect the copyrights. Its not just a copyright but the gnu license gives people more power but like a eula is still a license.
Most gnu products should include it by default where it could be more binding.
Speaking of the GPL with embedded devices here is a the lowdown on BSD vs GPL licensing for embedded products.
:-)
Yes Wasabi systems makes netbsd products for embedded devices so they are biased, but most of what is said here is true.
If you work for this mysterious company you might want to let someone know. Offering the modified tools online and bundled with the cd is a good idea. If not then you may want to use some posix equilivants and BSD licensed material to avoid putting your employer under liability.
The GPL is not perfect which is why I am a bsd bigot.
However linksys and netgear come with moddified linux and no source code in clear violation of the GPL. The FSF doesn't have the budget to sue so they keep intentionally violating the GPL. What are they going to do?
Real masochists and shitty programmers prefer to obfuscate code in perl.
/. garbage filter wont let me post it :-)
I would attempt to show a beauty of previous perl code but the
Shhh!
I ban you away from my wow tower! Begone!
I thought it was used by some young swede from Finland?
Because of the fact that if I use mysql at work, sco could sue my employer and my job would be on the line.
Paranoid? Yes, but this is SCO and all the people they sued so far were Openserver customers switching to Linux. What was the deal anyway between mysql and sco? Did sco get some special IP sharing agreement? How do I know?
Unless they rewritten wine in c++ its going to have problems emulating c++ features like objects really really bad. I am not bashing C, but rather pointing out that rewriting the language to mimick an operating system heavily built on C++ is a mistake.
Gnome 1.x learned this lesson by emulating c++ in C because the unix C purists thought it would be less bloated and more cool. It was fine until object oriented programing became a factor.
Most of it is due ot the fact that windows is complex and very proprietary with information hidden on the inner details. There are thousands of lines of code in windows based programs that simple workaround bugs. You have to actually duplicate the bug so the code works properly. Its a mess.
Thank god we dont use emacs then
But in smog it will be easier for snippers to see you.
I kind of like hiding in a dark corner and waiting for someone to walk by
This is why I keep typing ls in the command prompt?