Actually I hate Win 10 so much I would take Vista Sp1 over it!
I am typing this comment on a Surface Pro 3. It had 8.1 originally on it but MS put 10 on it at their store when I needed a screen replaced. I am tempted to bring it back in and pay to go back to 8.1. Just 15 minutes ago I woke it up from sleep and it had nothing but a black screen. Had to hit control alt delete to see the login screen just as one example.
I never had these problems with win8.1.
That says a lot in my opinion as 8 is a very poorly regarded release. But if you have a tablet like me or need Hyper-V it is tollerable and has some benefits with a metro app and start menu replacement so it feels like a desktop. Frustrating as it also sips power and is lighter compared to 7 if you are stuck in win32 land
I find this very hard to believe. Vista didn't have the problems 10 has. I tried 4 times to upgrade and this weekend just said fuck it and join the XP luddities who never upgrade.
I do not want to be an old man afraid of change and I am not a Linux user either who fears non FOSS.
My experience is Windows update does not even work out of the box on a fresh install from last weekend using Microsoft's own media creator program! SFC/scannow and DISM reported corruption beyond repair. No my hardware is fine as I am installing Windows 8.1 on the system today and it works beautifully.
The 1st time my user name was cut at c:\users\ti and it stayed that way this time around. The other time last fall I tried to do an upgrade my start menu was empty?? This time around when I tried to install Chrome and Office it won't not go to my taskbar. I checked my event viewer and found 50 errors with my apps.
It is still alpha quality and go research reddit and you see the 10 haters. Shitty OS
Last weekend I used the ms media creator tool free from their website to make a USB image. Still too buggy and update was corrupted immediately after installation. Wow
With modern UEFI it will install the OS and the previous in the recovery partition specified in the IEEE standards. Under PC settings you can go into recovery and put WIndows 8.1 or 10 back on with a clean wipe
These update problems make me guess that it's the same than before: blue screen twice a day, you have to restart computer even after changing a small setting, laggy and slow desktop, malware quickly conquers your computer, driver problems, reinstall of operating system every month?
I haven't seen any of those problems since Windows Vista came out. Of course, I take care of my Windows PCs with proper maintenance. Most people don't do any kind of maintenance, encounter all kinds of problems, and then blame Microsoft rather than take personal responsibility.
Dude last weekend I installed fresh WIndows 10 FRESH out of the box after I cleaned the disk with partedcd. I used the latest Windows 10 image from Microsoft's website witht he media creation tool which was Novembers release update 1. FROM MICROSOFT.
Guess what? Windows update failed immediately?! sfc/scannow and dism/online/cleanup-image/restorehealth all reported corruption! Now explain how this is possible and my fault?
Windows 10 is the worst OS ever. Vista didn't have these problems.
Look at the news and google firing QA? MS has none as this new scrum agile is the developers can fix the issues better and the company can raise the shareprice by cutting costs etc?
But the compensation structure is on features. So as long as you only upgrade with no fresh installs and run what Joe six pack runs you should have more stable results. How else would you explain this? Windows 7 and 8.1 had updates that occasionally screwed with something here and there but nothing even close to OMG cancel all updates and make your machine vulnerable because 80% of all pcs will have bugs otherwise.
Notice how Chrome gets updated all the time and no one complains. Actually, has a bad chrome udpate ever and I mean ever broke any plugins?
There is no QA since MS laid off the team and the OS is not modular enough to handle all these updates without breaking something. Major changes shouldn't be happening so quick and Windows update is the worst offender. FYI I am now talking about it not working on a fresh install!!? Not an update breaking something after a few months of use.
I support users so this means I have to know and use this POS day in and out. Folks 2016 is well under way and Windows 7 EOL is coming for me professionally at work. It is Jan 2020 so this means by 2019 in just 3 short years Windows 7 needs to go bye bye and meet XP and Windows95 in the light.
MS has paid off Intel not to support anything but 10 in skylake by next year and then will turn around and say LOOK NO PROBLEMS 1 BILLION INSTALLS == least buggy OS EVER. Shoot I put in my surface to teh MS store and they put in Windows 10 agaisn't my will for just a screen replacement. No Windows 8.1 will not install on a surface pro 3 as they use a custom image.
In my professional career in 7 years of XP and 7 only twice as Windows update EVER caused a problem in these legacy systems. WIth 10 it breaks freaking every month. Why?
MS needs a new framework that is stable, QA, and is designed modular wise to not break during an update. ASAP. My job is going to be on the line if I migrate to 10 in 2 years and things break every 3 weeks. Well Billly Gates was the one who fucked it up and they worked fine before he f*cked with it... etc... endrant
In the end as a tech professional and fellow geek this is sad to prefer ancient operating systems. It shouldn't be like this and no Linux for me and work is not an option read my job description above? Can MS turn this?
Actually with a start menu replacement WIndows 8.1 is a very fine desktop OS. If MS just included the old meny and left the full screen metro for tablets or those who click it to run their netflix on their desktop 8.1 would have been very very successful as many businesses who upgraded just last year would have deployed 8 instead of aging 7.
Stardock had a $15 bundle that also includes modern mix to launch modern apps in a Windows and a start menu.
Windows 8.1 has Hyper-V which supports Linux well and is better quality and cheaper than the now defuct VMWare Workstation type 2 hypervisor stack I used under 7. 8.1 has EFI and better wifi printing support and the ability to click on an iso for a virtual cdrom.
Windows 10 is a clusterfuck and just well nothing. It has no QA and a mesh of things thrown together and is experimental.
MS fired it's QA department last summer so with no QA what so ever it includes telemetry and the developers themselves fix the issues, which of course they only get compensated with their bonuses for adding features with their metrics. Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that?
I have turned into a fan of 8.1 believe it or not after trying 10 4 freaking times. That say's a lot?
No, I am so ingrained in the windows world for work and not a Unix admin or developer like many reading this so what choice do I have? What is screwed up is Windows 7 during 2009 actually was a competitor for Linux for non hackers. MS finally caught up. Now look?
hey developers, if you use open APIs you are no longer at the mercy of one company's "vision" of what a platform should be and can get more users without having to repeatedly porting your code.
Well go write one then. DirectX won due to being more than just a renderer like OpenGL. It has directSound, DirectInput, and other features. Also one unfair advantage was the MBA phb types were so terrified over piracy they decided to focus just on the xbox. Backport it to PC if it compiles etc. So guess which API was supported on the xbox?
So write a competing one? Port it to Android and MacOSX as well and then you have some leverage? UWP right now is buggy but it is compelling if I were a game developer as I could target that for the xboxone and tell the pc users to just upgrade to Windows 10 and spend $0 for a pc port.
What advantages are there to buying a game on the Windows Store versus Steam or GOG? Seriously, I cannot think of a single one. It has inferior performance, functionality, portability, etc.--I'm literally paying the same for less.
1. Apple the arch enemy made sooo much money and overtook MS on size due to success of their store with Itunes and mobile apps. MS wants a piece of the action too! Not a feature for you, but for them 2. Theoretically with Redstone Windows 10.1 and 10.2 (early 2017) you can run the same games for your XBoxONE and XBoxONE will have access to pc software and games and apps like Nook, Netflix, etc.This is a feature for developers so they can just write once and forget.. Supposedly it can benefit some users who have a large collection of both games. UWP will be the glue to tie the experience and ecosystems together as one
However, it is far from ready based on the other comments. Windows 10 is very Vista like in my opinion. It is a concept not baked and even XP took Sp 2 before it was ready. I hope it will be enough by 2018 when Windows 7 goes EOL.
You will all use Windows 10 whether you like it or not by 2018 and 2019 at work and for pc hardware not being 7 compatible. MS needs to rapidly bake this as the turd Vista eventually turned into 7 after 3 years.
Have you and many of the haters researched SystemD at all?
Youtube (sorry it is blocked at work) had a great video on how a hater turned into a proponent and showed started ngnix as an example. In SystemD you create a Unit file with \\pathtodaemon startup type:x and that is it. No complicating scripting with evil nasty bash scripts if/fi statements all over.SystemD also is event driven so when one thing happens it can trigger something else if you set it up that way.
The default in most packages (I'm talking Exchange, IIS, Apache, nginx, Postfix, Dovecot,...) is that it is enabled. The problem is that disabling it could break a lot of clients, especially those on Windows XP, IE6 or older versions of Java.
Which is why I want to strangle slashdotters who claim anything after XP is for the sake of change and that old software is the best thing since sliced bread.
System admins get the horde of the hostily more than the helpdesk folks. It is their fault for being hacked, yet users and management never want to upgrade or spend any money because it works just fine. Meanwhile if something is hacked or breaks it is on the system admin for not fixing it even though management didn't follow their own procedures
These issues seemed to have gone away since the crappy sandforce controllers are no longer in use. It is a firmware issue and not wear in hte past. OCZ made defective drives which had no extra capacitors so they would fry.
Howevcer, I did throw out a Sandisk ultra 1 plus I bought in 2013 recently. It experienced corruption which I thought was my imagination and something I did. I put it in a girlfriends laptop and noticed Windows reported corruption after a reboot. This coulld be due to extra ram as cache that went bad.
Even if it not personally identifiable it still is unacceptable. ALL business takes income. Income gets paid by credit card. That is a fact as I do not see cash only businesses.
It is problematic as let's say a hacker knows and targets your company. Mine is being targeted now with fake invoices etc. If the hacker knows the IP addresses then he can just watch traffic going to them and viola! Keystrokes with passwords, credit cards, secrets, etc. Sure not identifiable but still data worth millions
It is about bad advice. IT is still a hot field and a mistake to major into something else besides medical. Jobs pay shit today compared in the past for young folks. Anything over $15 an hour and the accountants look to China (not just an IT thing) to see if they can get it done cheaper. So $10/hr requiring a 4 year degree is the new norm. Programmers make $50,000 fresh out of college!
Only ones who make more are nurses. Show me wrong otherwise?
The reason I am angry and passionate about this is slashdot told me to leave IT and be a business major. WORST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE. I ended up taking crap jobs while former classmates have nice 6 figure salaries. I moved in with my parents and took computer repair jobs as I was a business major. Paid more than working at the mall at age 29 right? Pfffft humiliating to say the least.
It is not dishonest if those are the terms and yes it is beta software.
However, what irritates me and most here is MS fired it's QA last year. Literally not a single QA person and this is why it has telemtry and demands feedback. We are the beta testers.
If you install WIndows 10 as a fresh install which 90% of people do not do then woe is yoU! Bugs. I think this is bs. We need real QA as we have work to do and are willing to pay for Windows (corporations and those with win32 apps) if they make a good product.
I am on 8.1 and will stay here for awhile. Shucks as it gets a bad rap but I have work to do in the meantime
Unlike most here on slashdot I do actually want to use and learn your products. I really do as an IT professional I need to be up to date and I have the power to recommend your products and give you more money too.
Here is what everyone including myself think and why you are receiving negative feedback.1st off I want to say job well done with Windows 7. It brought me back from Linux as my main desktop as I know have linux stuff in vm's. What we liked was it was rock solid, stable, well tested, and worked and was well tested with the enterprise environment.
Windows 10 is very very flakely and loaded with privacy concerns since you fired all your QA. I tried last week for the 4th time to install Windows 10 on my desktop as a fresh upgrade. Too many bugs. What is unique as all 3 times I received a different bug. DNS issues, graphical artifacts, names cut short like c:\users\ti, drivers for Samsung pro SATA replaced by MS making system unbootable, etc. Corporations and inviduals have privacy concerns too. Make the pro version not track so you can monetize. Many businesses (all of them) process credit cards. How do you know that info is not being sent?? Not everyone is a big enterprise who buys the enterprise edition just for your information.
Hire some QA back and address privacy and give options for paying customers to have no tracking instead of relying on users and I may recommend 10.1 or 10.2 after redstone and all will be forgiven just like after Vista, 7 fixed things.
It is a shame because I started liking your products recently.
Being a programmer is the most lucrative job for a kid out of school. Where else would they go? A shift leader at a local Pier One? Believe it or not they hire business majors at malls. Talk about a slap in the face after $40,000 worth of education.
Your kids can go to where the jobs are at too fresh out of school
Slashdot Mirror
Actually I hate Win 10 so much I would take Vista Sp1 over it!
I am typing this comment on a Surface Pro 3. It had 8.1 originally on it but MS put 10 on it at their store when I needed a screen replaced. I am tempted to bring it back in and pay to go back to 8.1. Just 15 minutes ago I woke it up from sleep and it had nothing but a black screen. Had to hit control alt delete to see the login screen just as one example.
I never had these problems with win8.1.
That says a lot in my opinion as 8 is a very poorly regarded release. But if you have a tablet like me or need Hyper-V it is tollerable and has some benefits with a metro app and start menu replacement so it feels like a desktop. Frustrating as it also sips power and is lighter compared to 7 if you are stuck in win32 land
I find this very hard to believe. Vista didn't have the problems 10 has. I tried 4 times to upgrade and this weekend just said fuck it and join the XP luddities who never upgrade.
I do not want to be an old man afraid of change and I am not a Linux user either who fears non FOSS.
My experience is Windows update does not even work out of the box on a fresh install from last weekend using Microsoft's own media creator program! SFC /scannow and DISM reported corruption beyond repair. No my hardware is fine as I am installing Windows 8.1 on the system today and it works beautifully.
The 1st time my user name was cut at c:\users\ti and it stayed that way this time around. The other time last fall I tried to do an upgrade my start menu was empty?? This time around when I tried to install Chrome and Office it won't not go to my taskbar. I checked my event viewer and found 50 errors with my apps.
It is still alpha quality and go research reddit and you see the 10 haters. Shitty OS
Last weekend I used the ms media creator tool free from their website to make a USB image. Still too buggy and update was corrupted immediately after installation. Wow
With modern UEFI it will install the OS and the previous in the recovery partition specified in the IEEE standards. Under PC settings you can go into recovery and put WIndows 8.1 or 10 back on with a clean wipe
I like a good stable OS. Windows 8.1 works fine and doesn't have problems with updates breaking drivers like Linux and Windows 10 do
These update problems make me guess that it's the same than before: blue screen twice a day, you have to restart computer even after changing a small setting, laggy and slow desktop, malware quickly conquers your computer, driver problems, reinstall of operating system every month?
I haven't seen any of those problems since Windows Vista came out. Of course, I take care of my Windows PCs with proper maintenance. Most people don't do any kind of maintenance, encounter all kinds of problems, and then blame Microsoft rather than take personal responsibility.
Dude last weekend I installed fresh WIndows 10 FRESH out of the box after I cleaned the disk with partedcd. I used the latest Windows 10 image from Microsoft's website witht he media creation tool which was Novembers release update 1. FROM MICROSOFT.
Guess what? Windows update failed immediately?! sfc /scannow and dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth all reported corruption! Now explain how this is possible and my fault?
Windows 10 is the worst OS ever. Vista didn't have these problems.
Just put 8.1 back on? I did. I will wait this one out after redstone sometime late next year when bugs are worked out
Look at the news and google firing QA? MS has none as this new scrum agile is the developers can fix the issues better and the company can raise the shareprice by cutting costs etc?
But the compensation structure is on features. So as long as you only upgrade with no fresh installs and run what Joe six pack runs you should have more stable results. How else would you explain this? Windows 7 and 8.1 had updates that occasionally screwed with something here and there but nothing even close to OMG cancel all updates and make your machine vulnerable because 80% of all pcs will have bugs otherwise.
Vista did not have the problems 10 has
Notice how Chrome gets updated all the time and no one complains. Actually, has a bad chrome udpate ever and I mean ever broke any plugins?
There is no QA since MS laid off the team and the OS is not modular enough to handle all these updates without breaking something. Major changes shouldn't be happening so quick and Windows update is the worst offender. FYI I am now talking about it not working on a fresh install!!? Not an update breaking something after a few months of use.
I support users so this means I have to know and use this POS day in and out. Folks 2016 is well under way and Windows 7 EOL is coming for me professionally at work. It is Jan 2020 so this means by 2019 in just 3 short years Windows 7 needs to go bye bye and meet XP and Windows95 in the light.
MS has paid off Intel not to support anything but 10 in skylake by next year and then will turn around and say LOOK NO PROBLEMS 1 BILLION INSTALLS == least buggy OS EVER. Shoot I put in my surface to teh MS store and they put in Windows 10 agaisn't my will for just a screen replacement. No Windows 8.1 will not install on a surface pro 3 as they use a custom image.
In my professional career in 7 years of XP and 7 only twice as Windows update EVER caused a problem in these legacy systems. WIth 10 it breaks freaking every month. Why?
MS needs a new framework that is stable, QA, and is designed modular wise to not break during an update. ASAP. My job is going to be on the line if I migrate to 10 in 2 years and things break every 3 weeks. Well Billly Gates was the one who fucked it up and they worked fine before he f*cked with it ... etc ... endrant
In the end as a tech professional and fellow geek this is sad to prefer ancient operating systems. It shouldn't be like this and no Linux for me and work is not an option read my job description above? Can MS turn this?
Actually with a start menu replacement WIndows 8.1 is a very fine desktop OS. If MS just included the old meny and left the full screen metro for tablets or those who click it to run their netflix on their desktop 8.1 would have been very very successful as many businesses who upgraded just last year would have deployed 8 instead of aging 7.
Stardock had a $15 bundle that also includes modern mix to launch modern apps in a Windows and a start menu.
Windows 8.1 has Hyper-V which supports Linux well and is better quality and cheaper than the now defuct VMWare Workstation type 2 hypervisor stack I used under 7. 8.1 has EFI and better wifi printing support and the ability to click on an iso for a virtual cdrom.
Windows 10 is a clusterfuck and just well nothing. It has no QA and a mesh of things thrown together and is experimental.
MS fired it's QA department last summer so with no QA what so ever it includes telemetry and the developers themselves fix the issues, which of course they only get compensated with their bonuses for adding features with their metrics. Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that?
I have turned into a fan of 8.1 believe it or not after trying 10 4 freaking times. That say's a lot?
No, I am so ingrained in the windows world for work and not a Unix admin or developer like many reading this so what choice do I have? What is screwed up is Windows 7 during 2009 actually was a competitor for Linux for non hackers. MS finally caught up. Now look?
hey developers, if you use open APIs you are no longer at the mercy of one company's "vision" of what a platform should be and can get more users without having to repeatedly porting your code.
Well go write one then. DirectX won due to being more than just a renderer like OpenGL. It has directSound, DirectInput, and other features. Also one unfair advantage was the MBA phb types were so terrified over piracy they decided to focus just on the xbox. Backport it to PC if it compiles etc. So guess which API was supported on the xbox?
So write a competing one? Port it to Android and MacOSX as well and then you have some leverage? UWP right now is buggy but it is compelling if I were a game developer as I could target that for the xboxone and tell the pc users to just upgrade to Windows 10 and spend $0 for a pc port.
What advantages are there to buying a game on the Windows Store versus Steam or GOG? Seriously, I cannot think of a single one. It has inferior performance, functionality, portability, etc.--I'm literally paying the same for less.
1. Apple the arch enemy made sooo much money and overtook MS on size due to success of their store with Itunes and mobile apps. MS wants a piece of the action too! Not a feature for you, but for them
2. Theoretically with Redstone Windows 10.1 and 10.2 (early 2017) you can run the same games for your XBoxONE and XBoxONE will have access to pc software and games and apps like Nook, Netflix, etc.This is a feature for developers so they can just write once and forget.. Supposedly it can benefit some users who have a large collection of both games. UWP will be the glue to tie the experience and ecosystems together as one
However, it is far from ready based on the other comments. Windows 10 is very Vista like in my opinion. It is a concept not baked and even XP took Sp 2 before it was ready. I hope it will be enough by 2018 when Windows 7 goes EOL.
You will all use Windows 10 whether you like it or not by 2018 and 2019 at work and for pc hardware not being 7 compatible. MS needs to rapidly bake this as the turd Vista eventually turned into 7 after 3 years.
Have you and many of the haters researched SystemD at all?
Youtube (sorry it is blocked at work) had a great video on how a hater turned into a proponent and showed started ngnix as an example. In SystemD you create a Unit file with \\pathtodaemon startup type:x and that is it. No complicating scripting with evil nasty bash scripts if/fi statements all over.SystemD also is event driven so when one thing happens it can trigger something else if you set it up that way.
LibreSSL is more robust and is a lean version of OpenSSL.
LibreSSL is vulnerable as well since it is an design flaw of SSLv2 more than a product defect.
The default in most packages (I'm talking Exchange, IIS, Apache, nginx, Postfix, Dovecot, ...) is that it is enabled. The problem is that disabling it could break a lot of clients, especially those on Windows XP, IE6 or older versions of Java.
Which is why I want to strangle slashdotters who claim anything after XP is for the sake of change and that old software is the best thing since sliced bread.
System admins get the horde of the hostily more than the helpdesk folks. It is their fault for being hacked, yet users and management never want to upgrade or spend any money because it works just fine. Meanwhile if something is hacked or breaks it is on the system admin for not fixing it even though management didn't follow their own procedures
These issues seemed to have gone away since the crappy sandforce controllers are no longer in use. It is a firmware issue and not wear in hte past. OCZ made defective drives which had no extra capacitors so they would fry.
Howevcer, I did throw out a Sandisk ultra 1 plus I bought in 2013 recently. It experienced corruption which I thought was my imagination and something I did. I put it in a girlfriends laptop and noticed Windows reported corruption after a reboot. This coulld be due to extra ram as cache that went bad.
I had great luck with Samsung pro SSDs
LOL most employers just went to 7 in the last 12 months or so. It is cutting edge as you can get for a real enterprise environment
Even if it not personally identifiable it still is unacceptable. ALL business takes income. Income gets paid by credit card. That is a fact as I do not see cash only businesses.
It is problematic as let's say a hacker knows and targets your company. Mine is being targeted now with fake invoices etc. If the hacker knows the IP addresses then he can just watch traffic going to them and viola! Keystrokes with passwords, credit cards, secrets, etc. Sure not identifiable but still data worth millions
Here https://www.linkedin.com/pulse...
Ms thinks that is the old way. Agile and users being qa with tons of telemetry is the way to do things. Firefox uses this method too
It is not about education.
It is about bad advice. IT is still a hot field and a mistake to major into something else besides medical. Jobs pay shit today compared in the past for young folks. Anything over $15 an hour and the accountants look to China (not just an IT thing) to see if they can get it done cheaper. So $10/hr requiring a 4 year degree is the new norm. Programmers make $50,000 fresh out of college!
Only ones who make more are nurses. Show me wrong otherwise?
The reason I am angry and passionate about this is slashdot told me to leave IT and be a business major. WORST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE. I ended up taking crap jobs while former classmates have nice 6 figure salaries. I moved in with my parents and took computer repair jobs as I was a business major. Paid more than working at the mall at age 29 right? Pfffft humiliating to say the least.
It is not dishonest if those are the terms and yes it is beta software.
However, what irritates me and most here is MS fired it's QA last year. Literally not a single QA person and this is why it has telemtry and demands feedback. We are the beta testers.
If you install WIndows 10 as a fresh install which 90% of people do not do then woe is yoU! Bugs. I think this is bs. We need real QA as we have work to do and are willing to pay for Windows (corporations and those with win32 apps) if they make a good product.
I am on 8.1 and will stay here for awhile. Shucks as it gets a bad rap but I have work to do in the meantime
Unlike most here on slashdot I do actually want to use and learn your products. I really do as an IT professional I need to be up to date and I have the power to recommend your products and give you more money too.
Here is what everyone including myself think and why you are receiving negative feedback.1st off I want to say job well done with Windows 7. It brought me back from Linux as my main desktop as I know have linux stuff in vm's. What we liked was it was rock solid, stable, well tested, and worked and was well tested with the enterprise environment.
Windows 10 is very very flakely and loaded with privacy concerns since you fired all your QA. I tried last week for the 4th time to install Windows 10 on my desktop as a fresh upgrade. Too many bugs. What is unique as all 3 times I received a different bug. DNS issues, graphical artifacts, names cut short like c:\users\ti, drivers for Samsung pro SATA replaced by MS making system unbootable, etc. Corporations and inviduals have privacy concerns too. Make the pro version not track so you can monetize. Many businesses (all of them) process credit cards. How do you know that info is not being sent?? Not everyone is a big enterprise who buys the enterprise edition just for your information.
Hire some QA back and address privacy and give options for paying customers to have no tracking instead of relying on users and I may recommend 10.1 or 10.2 after redstone and all will be forgiven just like after Vista, 7 fixed things.
It is a shame because I started liking your products recently.
Trump is the only candidate who wants to force 40% tax on h1b1 candidates to encourage American employment. Just saying
Being a programmer is the most lucrative job for a kid out of school. Where else would they go? A shift leader at a local Pier One? Believe it or not they hire business majors at malls. Talk about a slap in the face after $40,000 worth of education.
Your kids can go to where the jobs are at too fresh out of school