Yeah! Let the market decide! If you don't like the price don't by it and force the price down, just like gasoline and electricity and natural gas....
Oh wait....
Dude, sometimes the market can't or won't decide. Then the government, who are supposed to have the interest of the electorate not the cable company executives and shareholders, will decide.
Sometimes governement interference is bad, sometimes its not.
Offtopic? Are the mods on Slashdot really that young?
Man, go rent Star Trek, the movie. It came out in 1979. Watch the movie.
Now, shouldn't a comment that makes reference to fictional space probe from a geek classic movie in a story about a flotilla of space probes being launched be considered at least a little relevant?
The internet is a tool for disseminating information, at speeds and in ways that the preinting press, radio and television could only dream of. But that's all it is. It's morally neutral.
Just like paper books, the radio and TV it can be used to both enlighten (Radio Free Europe, CIA copies of Russian maps, Cathedral and the Bazaar, Amnesty.com etc) or oppress/spread lies (Soviet-Era Pravda, Mein Kampf, CNN during the Iraq War, etc) or just to sell stuff like porn.
It is how these tools are used as a part of a greater movement that really brings down tyrrany. The information is what is threatening. Why do you think the Great Firewall of China exists? To censor and prevent the Chinese population from accessing information they could then use against the government. Why do you think war correspondents are now "embedded"? To censor and prevent American population from accessing information they could then use against the government (like they did back in the Viet Nam days, when reporters had pretty much free access in the war zone...).
If you thought the internet was going to topple dictators, you were living in a dream world to begin with. But it can sure help people do it. They just need a little longer than 6 to 10 years to do it. 70 million out of a population of 2 billion isn't a lot. Maybe when a greater percentage of the populace has access to information (as in Iran or North America), then tyranny will be harder to maintain.
And my taxes pay for a national health care system, decent roads and, compared to my American cousins, safer cities.
Nothing to do with perscription drugs.....
BTW next time you pull the whole 'Canadians pay too many taxes' argument out of your hat, make a fair comparision. How much to you pay for your health coverage? $200 per month? $400 for a family? How many state, city and county "sales taxes" and road tolls do you pay? We have 1 toll highway in Ontario, and it's mostly used by trucks. Now add that all up and add in you taxes. Guess what? When you level the playing field and include all the service that we get for free and you have to pay for, we each pay the same amount(roughly). Only I don't have 3 health companies and 5 road comapnies trying to make a buck off of me, telling me who can be my doctor and where I can drive. It's not util the $80K taxe bracket that the differnce starts - we still tax progressively, you guys let the rich get away with out paying hardly anything....
But I digress, what exactly does this have to do with the fact that our drug prices are cheaper? Are you implying that higher taxes is the better system since they seem to make drugs cheaper?
If that's what you think a 3D UI is about, your dumber than the AC handle you responded with.
If you want to have a real debate about this, try signing in and coming up with actual examples of where this has been rejected by "ordinary folks", rather thatn trolling with your idiotic biking to the post office metaphor.
Crazy thing about UI metaphors, lots of them out there, not all of them work. You have shown no proof that the 3D metaphor presented by Looking Glass does not work. Have you even seen it?
Well, we can stop working on GNOME and KDE and Aqua because you are "moving away from physical cases towards a hierarchical, multi-layered view of my mp3s with iTunes."
Has it occurred to you that, perhaps, the vast majority of ordinary, mostly-computer-illiterate people do want to handle real objects on thier computer screen? Do you look up from your IDE or commandline long enough to notice that most people don't use or want to use the computer the same way you do?
Try reading this article about programming. It's a bit silly in places, but it makes some good point about programming in general and programming the UI in particular - make it a pleasure for a user to use, make it easy for the user to do work, not the programmer.
I have seen this "desktop" demonstrated and it's quite cool. Not because I would nescesarily want to use it (although some of the stuff looks interesting) but because I can see my mother or my wife or my brother the mechanic or my cousin the biochemist finding using a computer 1000 times easier to use with this kind of metaphor - they concentrate on doing their job instead of mine. I think part of my job in creating software for humans to interact with is to make it easy to use, seamless and invisible in their environment - like answering a phone, doing up a zipper or reading a watch...you don't think about it, you just do it.
Anyway, that's how I see it and that's why I think Looking Glass is actually a step away from the "desktop" metaphor to something different. Perhaps a baby step at first, but a far greater step than XP or Aqua...
And of course we all have choice. If you don't want to use it - don't.
Hmm you really seem to doubt it's existance. Well let me tell you, it does exist and it is quite cool. I have seen it demo-ed live on at least 2 occasions And it's based on Suse/GNOME so I'm quite sure you'll get a chance to see the 'code' soon.
Rumour has it a downloadable ISO image (similar to the JDS demo disc and the SUSE 9.1 Live disc) will be available for demo/trying purposes in the summer.
I think Looking Glass will really change how desktop computing will be done - because it finally goes beyond the 'desktop' metaphor. You may not like it but I would expect that it is as configurable as any Linux desktop environment of today - make it like you want it.
I for one am looking forward to it coming out, mainly because I am sick of UIs that are simply boxes with other boxes inside...I would like a UI that can emulate a 'real' object (where it is appropriate to do so - I know that isn't always the case) or an object that no one has yet thought of.
I think that this might make the Linux desktop something a regular Joe Sixpack might want to use...familiar enough to be easy to use but different and 'cool' enough to be work switching to.
Well, let's not go too far and say that 'spending money they don't have' is soley NDP trait.
If I remember the 80's (and I do - I was able to vote back then) the PC's were elected on the Mulroney promise to cut the deficit and debt. 9 years later they turned out to be the government that ran the BIGGEST deficit in the history of Canada. And after 8 years of the good ole PCs in Ontario, lo and behold, a $6.5 BILLION deficit from the party the claimed to be running surpluses, even after the defict was discovered by the new Liberal government (who, ironically did the same thing to Bob Rae's NDP back in 1990...).
No buddy, 'spending lots of money they don't have' is specialization of every political party (even GWB in the States). The difference is, the NDP choose to spend that money on things like education and health care, rather that corruption (our present Liberal government) or bailing out failed banks owned by thier friends (Mulroney) and other frivoulous things most average people don't care about.
I remember the NDP in Ontario too. Remember 'Rae -days", the 12 unpaided "holidays' government workers took in order to save the government money? Well, I can tell yeah, after 8 years of Mike Harris and Ernie Eves PC's slashing health and education, they are yearning for the good old days with the NDP.
The best thing Mike Harris ever did was make Bob Rea look good.
Funny, it seems that only the last two non-NDP governments (Mike/Ernie of the PC and David Peterson/Robert Nixon of Liberals) said on the day the election started we had a surplus and on the day the new government came in they discovered it was actually a giant deficit.
You may disagree with the NDP on philisophical grounds, but don't try to pull any of that "they remember" crap. Sure they remember the NDP in BC and Saskatchewan, but they elect an NDP government every few years. And Ontario certainly remembers the Liberals and PC mismangement and lies but still vote them in pretty regularly.
Don't count the NDP out Federally, especially not this year...
I am afraid you are under the wrong impression of what Jini is or does.
Jini is a distributed services platform. It distributes those services in a certain way, based on a Service Oriented Architecture and mobile code. That's it. Jini provides some core services, but the creation of services is up to the developer.
Take Javaspaces, for instance. Not only is it a spec, it is also an example of a Jini Service.
If you want a distributed file storage, go to www.jini.org and find one. Not there? Start one. Jini is not a protocol, it is protocol independant. Use any protocol you want in your service.
Ironic that here on/. that someone would be complaining that they have to take part in a community process to get what they want!
You may want to check it out now.
BTW, read the spec and implement Jini yourself if you think thestarter kit is "crappy". You even get the source code to refactor, if you like.
Well, I never claimed that Sun "invented" mobile code with Jini, just that the ideas espoused by Obje have been done before and are currently available for anyone to download from www.jini.org.
So, seriously, what other past implementations of this have there been? I am really curious.
As for your cracks about the real problem being a Java-based implementation, I will take it you are one of those "if it ain't GPL it ain't free" zealots. So please, provide links to the C++ version of a Jini-like framework. Or the Ruby version. Or the Python. Or C. Anything as long as it is OSS certified. While your at it, point me to the one that has the default sand-box for running the mobile code, making it more secure - other than a Java implementation.
My idea of giving "props" was because the referenced article mentions that "Obje can be built on top of mobile-code frameworks like Jini"...and Jini has historically been "ignored" even within Sun.
Or did you not bother with the formality of actually reading the article?
Hmmm?
And if Jini and Obje address different problems, perhaps you can enlighten me just what problems they each address that is so different, 'cuz it looks pretty identical to this Jini programer.
Glad to see PARC is using the idea of mobile code from Jini. The Jini Community has been doing this for over 5 years now. And it's not just for devices. Quite a few companies have used it as a platform for enterprise computing - in many ways it even competes with J2EE/EJB in this area.
Jini is a great Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) that is VERY secure yet still involves mobile code rather than just RPC calls.
It is a Java-based solution, but is opening up to other languages through the Surrogate Architecture...
Anyway, if we get excited about something new from PARC, we should investigate a fairly mature technology that it is built on top of.
If you think Obje is cool, check out RIO. Not just dynamic networking and mobile code, but dynamic provisioning and Quality of Service...
So it's only "terrorism" if it's done by "evil" people?
Last time I checked, 'terrorism' meant wanton violence and destruction desinged to spread terror and confusion to maximum effect. Nothing to do with who commits the acts or whom the acts are committed against. That includes assasinations and sabotoge.
The US and the CIA did (and are probably doing) things that if they were commited against them, would be labelled 'terrorism' in a New York minute. Just because the USSR were evil or terrorist themselves is irrelevant. The only measure of 'terrorism' is the actions.
And given that, it sure looks like 'terrorism' to me...
Except Java isn't "closed source" - you can down load the source if you agree to the Sun Community Source Licence (SCSL).
The real issue here is licencing. ESR and some of our more zealous bretheren beleive that if it's not GPL, it's not free or open. I don't subscribe to that but what do I know, I just use Java.
Try cruising the Java.net site, or Jakarta or the Java Forge at SourceForge and see how many Open Source projects their are written in Java just as it is right now.
So what is the big deal? Want to change Java? Join the JCP. Or the JavaLobby.
Funny, Linux is written in C, yet how many individuals can join a C version of the JCP and influence the course of the C language? Exactly none. We all get to wait for the ANSI committees to take YEARS to standardize C and C++ and to add features. Why do you think there are so many non-standard extensions to C and C++ out there?
Java upgrades the standards and the language pretty regularly every 18 months, with input from whomever would like to join the JCP..
But I guess if it's not the beloved GPL, it doesn't count...
Do not confuse Websphere Application Server with Websphere Studio...they are (clearly) entirely different animals. "Websphere" everything is the IBM version of Sun's "Java" everything - just marketing.
Websphere Studio is based on Eclipse, but they are not entirely the same (just as Sun ONE Studio is based on Netbeans but not entirely the same). IBM HTTPD Server part of the Application Server is based on Apache (but not entirely the same). There are some open source components to the Websphere family, but they are not opensource....don't try to think otherwise.
I mean, these are Open Standards right? So the Language spec is not really OSS, but I can down load it from ANSI and implement it if I like, right?
So, why doesn't somebody just get the freely available Java spec and implemented? Isn't that what the GCJ is doing? Isn't that Open Source? Why doesn't everyone whine to IBM to Opensource THEIR implementation of the spec, or BEA JRockit or Apple?
Sun acts as the keeper of the flame for the various Java specs, in concert with the JCP (which is an open organization BTW). Those specs are free to read and implement. FWIW, I think Sun has done a great job of keeping Java open and compatible, especially when MS tried to "embrace and extend" in '97 - '99.
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Yeah! Let the market decide! If you don't like the price don't by it and force the price down, just like gasoline and electricity and natural gas....
Oh wait....
Dude, sometimes the market can't or won't decide. Then the government, who are supposed to have the interest of the electorate not the cable company executives and shareholders, will decide.
Sometimes governement interference is bad, sometimes its not.
Offtopic? Are the mods on Slashdot really that young?
Man, go rent Star Trek, the movie. It came out in 1979. Watch the movie.
Now, shouldn't a comment that makes reference to fictional space probe from a geek classic movie in a story about a flotilla of space probes being launched be considered at least a little relevant?
Here here!
The internet is a tool for disseminating information, at speeds and in ways that the preinting press, radio and television could only dream of. But that's all it is. It's morally neutral.
Just like paper books, the radio and TV it can be used to both enlighten (Radio Free Europe, CIA copies of Russian maps, Cathedral and the Bazaar, Amnesty.com etc) or oppress/spread lies (Soviet-Era Pravda, Mein Kampf, CNN during the Iraq War, etc) or just to sell stuff like porn.
It is how these tools are used as a part of a greater movement that really brings down tyrrany. The information is what is threatening. Why do you think the Great Firewall of China exists? To censor and prevent the Chinese population from accessing information they could then use against the government. Why do you think war correspondents are now "embedded"? To censor and prevent American population from accessing information they could then use against the government (like they did back in the Viet Nam days, when reporters had pretty much free access in the war zone...).
If you thought the internet was going to topple dictators, you were living in a dream world to begin with. But it can sure help people do it. They just need a little longer than 6 to 10 years to do it. 70 million out of a population of 2 billion isn't a lot. Maybe when a greater percentage of the populace has access to information (as in Iran or North America), then tyranny will be harder to maintain.
Enter Augusto Pinochet.
The US must really beleive that, since it removed and murdered the domocratically elected leader of Chile and replaced him with a murderous dictator.
So, was Chile better off with tousands disappearing, suffering torture and murder for 25 yerars?
I guess it's only ok when the US installs the murderous dictator at the helm...
Oh man do you ever need retraining for OpenOffice.org!
;-)
Take my wife. She had to play with OOo for the sum total of three whole hours! And they weren't even in a row.
Now she uses OOo daily and at times still thinks she's using MS office.
Wow, If I had know I needed retraining on OOo I wouldn't have downloaded and installed it for free....
And my taxes pay for a national health care system, decent roads and, compared to my American cousins, safer cities.
Nothing to do with perscription drugs.....
BTW next time you pull the whole 'Canadians pay too many taxes' argument out of your hat, make a fair comparision. How much to you pay for your health coverage? $200 per month? $400 for a family? How many state, city and county "sales taxes" and road tolls do you pay? We have 1 toll highway in Ontario, and it's mostly used by trucks. Now add that all up and add in you taxes. Guess what? When you level the playing field and include all the service that we get for free and you have to pay for, we each pay the same amount(roughly). Only I don't have 3 health companies and 5 road comapnies trying to make a buck off of me, telling me who can be my doctor and where I can drive. It's not util the $80K taxe bracket that the differnce starts - we still tax progressively, you guys let the rich get away with out paying hardly anything....
But I digress, what exactly does this have to do with the fact that our drug prices are cheaper? Are you implying that higher taxes is the better system since they seem to make drugs cheaper?
I dunno? What do you think Gilgamesh?
Uhm, in case you missed it the first time
3D != 'Real World' metaphor. It can, but it is not 1:1.
Try actually looking at Looking Glass or any other 3D UI that has been built SINCE 1994.
BTW, Magic Cap is still a desktop metaphor...
All done.
If that's what you think a 3D UI is about, your dumber than the AC handle you responded with.
If you want to have a real debate about this, try signing in and coming up with actual examples of where this has been rejected by "ordinary folks", rather thatn trolling with your idiotic biking to the post office metaphor.
Crazy thing about UI metaphors, lots of them out there, not all of them work. You have shown no proof that the 3D metaphor presented by Looking Glass does not work. Have you even seen it?
Ass hat...
Well, we can stop working on GNOME and KDE and Aqua because you are "moving away from physical cases towards a hierarchical, multi-layered view of my mp3s with iTunes."
Has it occurred to you that, perhaps, the vast majority of ordinary, mostly-computer-illiterate people do want to handle real objects on thier computer screen? Do you look up from your IDE or commandline long enough to notice that most people don't use or want to use the computer the same way you do?
Try reading this article about programming. It's a bit silly in places, but it makes some good point about programming in general and programming the UI in particular - make it a pleasure for a user to use, make it easy for the user to do work, not the programmer.
I have seen this "desktop" demonstrated and it's quite cool. Not because I would nescesarily want to use it (although some of the stuff looks interesting) but because I can see my mother or my wife or my brother the mechanic or my cousin the biochemist finding using a computer 1000 times easier to use with this kind of metaphor - they concentrate on doing their job instead of mine. I think part of my job in creating software for humans to interact with is to make it easy to use, seamless and invisible in their environment - like answering a phone, doing up a zipper or reading a watch...you don't think about it, you just do it.
Anyway, that's how I see it and that's why I think Looking Glass is actually a step away from the "desktop" metaphor to something different. Perhaps a baby step at first, but a far greater step than XP or Aqua...
And of course we all have choice. If you don't want to use it - don't.
Hmm you really seem to doubt it's existance. Well let me tell you, it does exist and it is quite cool. I have seen it demo-ed live on at least 2 occasions And it's based on Suse/GNOME so I'm quite sure you'll get a chance to see the 'code' soon.
Rumour has it a downloadable ISO image (similar to the JDS demo disc and the SUSE 9.1 Live disc) will be available for demo/trying purposes in the summer.
I think Looking Glass will really change how desktop computing will be done - because it finally goes beyond the 'desktop' metaphor. You may not like it but I would expect that it is as configurable as any Linux desktop environment of today - make it like you want it.
I for one am looking forward to it coming out, mainly because I am sick of UIs that are simply boxes with other boxes inside...I would like a UI that can emulate a 'real' object (where it is appropriate to do so - I know that isn't always the case) or an object that no one has yet thought of.
I think that this might make the Linux desktop something a regular Joe Sixpack might want to use...familiar enough to be easy to use but different and 'cool' enough to be work switching to.
And cheap.
Well, let's not go too far and say that 'spending money they don't have' is soley NDP trait.
If I remember the 80's (and I do - I was able to vote back then) the PC's were elected on the Mulroney promise to cut the deficit and debt. 9 years later they turned out to be the government that ran the BIGGEST deficit in the history of Canada. And after 8 years of the good ole PCs in Ontario, lo and behold, a $6.5 BILLION deficit from the party the claimed to be running surpluses, even after the defict was discovered by the new Liberal government (who, ironically did the same thing to Bob Rae's NDP back in 1990...).
No buddy, 'spending lots of money they don't have' is specialization of every political party (even GWB in the States). The difference is, the NDP choose to spend that money on things like education and health care, rather that corruption (our present Liberal government) or bailing out failed banks owned by thier friends (Mulroney) and other frivoulous things most average people don't care about.
I remember the NDP in Ontario too. Remember 'Rae -days", the 12 unpaided "holidays' government workers took in order to save the government money? Well, I can tell yeah, after 8 years of Mike Harris and Ernie Eves PC's slashing health and education, they are yearning for the good old days with the NDP.
The best thing Mike Harris ever did was make Bob Rea look good.
Funny, it seems that only the last two non-NDP governments (Mike/Ernie of the PC and David Peterson/Robert Nixon of Liberals) said on the day the election started we had a surplus and on the day the new government came in they discovered it was actually a giant deficit.
You may disagree with the NDP on philisophical grounds, but don't try to pull any of that "they remember" crap. Sure they remember the NDP in BC and Saskatchewan, but they elect an NDP government every few years. And Ontario certainly remembers the Liberals and PC mismangement and lies but still vote them in pretty regularly.
Don't count the NDP out Federally, especially not this year...
..Down on the farm, we call that karma.
I am afraid you are under the wrong impression of what Jini is or does.
/. that someone would be complaining that they have to take part in a community process to get what they want!
Jini is a distributed services platform. It distributes those services in a certain way, based on a Service Oriented Architecture and mobile code. That's it. Jini provides some core services, but the creation of services is up to the developer.
Take Javaspaces, for instance. Not only is it a spec, it is also an example of a Jini Service.
If you want a distributed file storage, go to www.jini.org and find one. Not there? Start one. Jini is not a protocol, it is protocol independant. Use any protocol you want in your service.
Ironic that here on
You may want to check it out now.
BTW, read the spec and implement Jini yourself if you think thestarter kit is "crappy". You even get the source code to refactor, if you like.
Ohh, touchy.
.
Well, I never claimed that Sun "invented" mobile code with Jini, just that the ideas espoused by Obje have been done before and are currently available for anyone to download from www.jini.org
So, seriously, what other past implementations of this have there been? I am really curious.
As for your cracks about the real problem being a Java-based implementation, I will take it you are one of those "if it ain't GPL it ain't free" zealots. So please, provide links to the C++ version of a Jini-like framework. Or the Ruby version. Or the Python. Or C. Anything as long as it is OSS certified. While your at it, point me to the one that has the default sand-box for running the mobile code, making it more secure - other than a Java implementation.
My idea of giving "props" was because the referenced article mentions that "Obje can be built on top of mobile-code frameworks like Jini"...and Jini has historically been "ignored" even within Sun.
Or did you not bother with the formality of actually reading the article?
Hmmm?
And if Jini and Obje address different problems, perhaps you can enlighten me just what problems they each address that is so different, 'cuz it looks pretty identical to this Jini programer.
Jini is a java based distibuted computing platform dumbass...it IS Java.
Uhm, try going here and see how "dead" Jini is...
'Cuz it's not. Not even close
Jini defines APIs for printers and cameras;
So, what your saying is they have never read the Jini spec or decided to find out what Jini is then?
Hint: It has nothing to do with "printers" and "cameras" and everything to do with "services" - any services.
I do a little development in Jini and I can tell you, Jini does EVERYTHING Obje does...
Glad to see PARC is using the idea of mobile code from Jini. The Jini Community has been doing this for over 5 years now. And it's not just for devices. Quite a few companies have used it as a platform for enterprise computing - in many ways it even competes with J2EE/EJB in this area.
.Net do that!" :)
Jini is a great Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) that is VERY secure yet still involves mobile code rather than just RPC calls.
It is a Java-based solution, but is opening up to other languages through the Surrogate Architecture...
Anyway, if we get excited about something new from PARC, we should investigate a fairly mature technology that it is built on top of.
If you think Obje is cool, check out RIO. Not just dynamic networking and mobile code, but dynamic provisioning and Quality of Service...
"Let's see
So it's only "terrorism" if it's done by "evil" people?
Last time I checked, 'terrorism' meant wanton violence and destruction desinged to spread terror and confusion to maximum effect. Nothing to do with who commits the acts or whom the acts are committed against. That includes assasinations and sabotoge.
The US and the CIA did (and are probably doing) things that if they were commited against them, would be labelled 'terrorism' in a New York minute. Just because the USSR were evil or terrorist themselves is irrelevant. The only measure of 'terrorism' is the actions.
And given that, it sure looks like 'terrorism' to me...
Except Java isn't "closed source" - you can down load the source if you agree to the Sun Community Source Licence (SCSL).
The real issue here is licencing. ESR and some of our more zealous bretheren beleive that if it's not GPL, it's not free or open. I don't subscribe to that but what do I know, I just use Java.
Try cruising the Java.net site, or Jakarta or the Java Forge at SourceForge and see how many Open Source projects their are written in Java just as it is right now.
So what is the big deal? Want to change Java? Join the JCP. Or the JavaLobby.
Funny, Linux is written in C, yet how many individuals can join a C version of the JCP and influence the course of the C language? Exactly none. We all get to wait for the ANSI committees to take YEARS to standardize C and C++ and to add features. Why do you think there are so many non-standard extensions to C and C++ out there?
Java upgrades the standards and the language pretty regularly every 18 months, with input from whomever would like to join the JCP..
But I guess if it's not the beloved GPL, it doesn't count...
Do not confuse Websphere Application Server with Websphere Studio...they are (clearly) entirely different animals. "Websphere" everything is the IBM version of Sun's "Java" everything - just marketing.
Websphere Studio is based on Eclipse, but they are not entirely the same (just as Sun ONE Studio is based on Netbeans but not entirely the same). IBM HTTPD Server part of the Application Server is based on Apache (but not entirely the same). There are some open source components to the Websphere family, but they are not opensource....don't try to think otherwise.
Excellent!!
Oh where are my mod points?....
but is there an "Open Source" C? or C++?
I mean, these are Open Standards right? So the Language spec is not really OSS, but I can down load it from ANSI and implement it if I like, right?
So, why doesn't somebody just get the freely available Java spec and implemented? Isn't that what the GCJ is doing? Isn't that Open Source? Why doesn't everyone whine to IBM to Opensource THEIR implementation of the spec, or BEA JRockit or Apple?
Sun acts as the keeper of the flame for the various Java specs, in concert with the JCP (which is an open organization BTW). Those specs are free to read and implement. FWIW, I think Sun has done a great job of keeping Java open and compatible, especially when MS tried to "embrace and extend" in '97 - '99.
I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.