Slashdot Mirror
IBM Offers to Help Sun Open Up Java
dave writes "ESR has opened the issue of
pressuring Sun to open source Java, and today IBM throws in their own
commitment toward this end. IBM has published an open letter to
Sun, proposing that the two companies collaborate on an independent project
to open source Java, saying that IBM is ready to provide technical resources
and code for the open source Java implementation while Sun provides the open
source community with Sun materials, including Java specifications, tests and
code."
Just playing Devil's Advocate here: IBM sounds touchy-feely about open source but how would they react if Sun were to offer to help IBM open up AIX?
Trolling is a art,
Does anyone actually think this is actually gonna happen? Sun has always impressed me as a Microsoft wannabe. The only reason they are currently allying themselves with Linux is because "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
'course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
A similar article can also be found at The Globe.
With the Linux community behind it, open-sourcing Java is going to mean a big leap for software development. Although they are worried about open source meaning zero revenue, this isn't necessarily the case.
...don't question it!!!
At one point in time, IBM was the leader in all things computing, and would act as they saw fit.
Now a days, they are for open standards, helping out other firms, investing in open source, etc etc etc.
What changed, specifically? Mind you, I'm all for the change (it's very good in my opinion) and they seem to be doing the right things, but is this a response to Microsoft and its ways, or did the change come internally?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
IBM has a less well known Java VM for embedded systems called j9. This was developed in a clean-room way. If IBM wants an Open Source, commercial quality VM, there's nothing stopping them from opening this one.
[Open Source Java or you risk relegating it, while .NET on commodity hardware gobbles up both the development and hardware markets to Sun's eventual doom. Work with us
and Java will be strong as many eyes and hands (ours included) clean it up and expand it where need and demand lay. Ignore this request and we'll pick it up at your bankruptcy auction.
Regards,
Rod
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
As much as I love open source and even openness in other forms (like letters), I can't help but think that open letters tend to be more about making news than actually seriously expecting things to work the proposed way.
This is a win-win situation for IBM. If Sun goes for it, IBM gets it's hand in the development of an open implementation of Java. If Sun doesn't, IBM can say that they tried. Either way, IBM appeals to the open source community.
As for Sun, it's almost lose, lose. If Sun goes for it, they lose complete control over Java, which is a cash crop for them. If they don't, they look stingy to the open source community, and alienate a lot of us.
Poor sun, nice IBM. .
This statement is false.
and IBM may likely do it, to put their AIX stuffs behind Linux, given what they have already done.
It makes a lot of business sense for IBM to get open source Java, especially for their application server space.
Hey, that's my password you are typing
else keep thinking about LOTR, when they think of Sun and Java.
Sun being the Golem and Java being the "ring".
"My Precccciousssss...Myyyy Precious".
Sig it.
IBM doesn't needs Sun's help/permission. Why don't they start to contribute to the already existing free java stuff like gjc and GNU Classpath?
So does this mean the Slashdotters who claimed that ESR damaged the open source community via his letter to Sun will now retract their views? It seems we're closer to an open source Java as a result of his opening salvo (little gun-toting humor there) than we were before he wrote his letter.
Q: What's to stop Sun and IBM from open-sourcing the JDKs they have now? A: Third-party IP. Odds are, both Sun's and IBM's JDKs are chock full of third-party IP. Even the stuff that IBM implements in a "clean room way" probably contains IP that IBM licensed from somebody else. One could interpret IBM's gesture as offering to produce parts of the JDK that are free from IP encumbrances.
Finding God in a Dog
Everyone's read ESR's open letters, but the real, convincing, extremely well-written case was done by Ganesh Prashad in a Linux Today editorial yesterday. Ganesh lays it out in terms Sun can understand, without ESR's controversial style. This article is a must read for us, but it's also something that should be absolutely wallpapered in Scott McNealy's office, and maybe his home too.
.NET if they don't let the community galvanize and help out, and the only way to do that is to open source the Java core.
Ganesh very clearly demonstrates how Sun will lose J2EE's 'lingua franca of business logic' status to
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I think most people, and obviously IBM, are missing some key points to why Sun treats Java how it does.
Things are tight fisted because Sun wants a solid, CONSISTANT platform. This was a MAJOR REASON for the lawsuit that they fought and WON against Microsoft and their VM implementation.
Opening it up not only kills that idea (anyone can alter the platform specifications for whatever selfish reasons), but it would undermine all of the fight they have put up at this point.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
With the eclipse project, Sun felt left out. Now, it is time for them to put up or shut up, and if they refuse and IBM decides to open source their own stuff regardless, Sun has no one to blame but themselves.
Did ESR just bitch, and things actually happened?
I'm impressed; unless he has an "in," of course...
Could Sun license it under some terms like MySQL where you could deveople opensource projects with out buying a license. If you want to keep your product closed you would have to buy a license from Sun. I know they are very two different beasts so that is why I am asking.
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
Sun will go out kicking and screaming rather than open source its last remaining piece of IP that has any value. They missed the boat with the evolution of cheap Wintel processors and Linux -- no reason to think they'll act any differently here.
As the days and months go by, it really seems as though IBM is serious about its support of OSS. Is this truly the case? Most likely. If you examine the past, all the PC software IBM has produced has either failed miserably or been defeated in the market by other software.
Perhaps IBM has realized that an investment into OSS is more cost efficient than paying to develop their own closed source software.
Opening Java systematically would make it more appealing to a wider user base - No longer would it's major uses have to be confined to web, Sun, or CS classes at major universities.
Sun made a nice start on Java, but like most closed, standardized software, a better alternative could probably be written.
Kudos to IBM for their support. Hopefully Sun will accept their offer and a better, OSS version of Java will be released.
This is so true. I love my Sun SparcStation, I've enjoyed working with Solaris, but Sun is just as closed as M$. This is one of the things that bothers me about the push to Java. I see little political difference between Java and .NET, it's all proprietary, so why do we still love Sun but hate M$, they are the same.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Now we can get IBM to open up Java's code like they opened SCO's!
(heavy on the sarcasm here - don't take me too seriously)
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
What about the already existing Open Source Java implimentations?
GNU Compiler for Java is available from the FSF. There is also work to make a Mozilla plugin for using GCJ to allow Java Applets to run.
Kaffe PersonalJava 1.1 compliant Java.
Kaffe once shipped with RedHat. GCJ currently ships with most major linux distributions right now.
The program isn't debugged until the last user is dead.
and your weird.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
we're set back that much farther from getting rid of java all together in favour of developing something that is like, well, i dunno, fast and good?
Does ESR do anything nowadays other than open the issue of pressuring people? He's like an anti-RIAA. Just as annoying, but the force goes in the opposite vector.
PHP is already open source, and is quite succesful, the PHP Group manages to stay profitable at least. As I can download software to run my own java or php freely as an individual, im not sure what the huge deal is?
man, that's just sad, you couldn't even make a joke using SCO funny.
Wow good thing I read the posts before I wrote my own... I was just about to say the same thing. The problem with letting people develop java however they want is that it allows people to develop system speciffic java amongst other things . This is exactly what Microsoft tried to do, and why Sun sued them. Think about it, if Java had been open sourced to begin with, then Sun wouldn't have been able to sue Microsoft, and we'd probably have a whole body of Java code out there that only runs on Windows. As of now we have guarantee, if it's written in Java it will run anywhere.
Yep. Now contrast IBM's behavior with Sun's. Sun is suffering from "ex babe syndrome" (or perhaps ex studmuffin syndrome; all explained below). Sure, they have good software, but the market prefers Windows, Linux, and OSX. Arguably, they have decent hardware, but the market prefers Intel, AMD, and PowerPC. Java is the only thing Sun has that's still attractive.
Sun needs to grok that it's pretty much lost its attractiveness -- those who don't grok their changes tend to suffer from ex babe/stud syndrome and it's not a pretty thing. It occurs to me that Sun has the same managment it had back in the days when it was attractive. Perhaps a change in management would help the organization grok its new circumstances and deal appropriately.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
The reason Sun won't let go is because they know Java can't stand on it's own in the Free Softeware arena, where things are judged on technical merits rather than marketing pressure ...
...
It would die a quick death without coporate backing
You hit the nail on the head, man. IBM is trying to drown SUN.
McNealy addressed this issue year or so ago...
.NET and his vision, Java's there. Java's beating him, or right behind him, on almost every front, and for the better part of the last few years, he's been unable to combat this enemy with any major success. Now imagine someone hands him the source code and tells him he can fork it however it wants. What would he do?
The problem they're afraid of is Microsoft embracing & extending Java. The ability that Sun had to sue Microsoft and force them to cease their modifications would no longer exist.
Now imagine Bill Gates at home in his Medina mansion.. (only 10 minutes away from here actually... sad...). Everywhere he tries to push
I don't know. And for the time being, I'm fine not knowing...
[i]With the Linux community behind it, open-sourcing Java is going to mean a big leap for software development.[/i][br][br]A big leap for who? Perhaps for the open source community - but not for Sun or Java. Why exactly do you think the open source community will cause Java to leap forward?
My perception is that Sun's development schedule outpaces that of any major open source product I've examined.
This is playing to an audience (us) when the writer knows that the addressee won't go along. Otherwise a private letter would suffice. It's just a statement of position, don't expect anything to come of it.
Do open letters ever achive their overt goals?
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Not really two different beasts, in that respect. A lot of projects use that sort of system. ReiserFS, Mozilla and MySQL are the ones that pop off the top of my head.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
But does IBM honestly think that open-source
is the best path to creating successful software?
If so, how about an open-source WebSphere & DB2?
It would be great if IBM could use its muscle
to move Java forward in the areas that need it,
like advocating for open-source J2EE servers,
and ideally more sensible ways to deploy J2EE.
Anyone here playing with Java 1.5?
Sun made things more sensible like
autoboxing and generics and loops--
how about making J2EE more sensible?
IMHO, Sun & IBM both need this to happen
before MS gets momentum on the big servers.
Cheers, Joel
I never saw a Linux fork, except when it was necessary to make a fork - like RT Linux.
Good projects never fork without reason, and if they do, fork is neglected by users.
Furthermore, noone stops Sun to maintain the definition of Java standard. MS was not sued to stop delivering java VM, but to stop calling it "Java" (IMHO). I can copy all code from Red Hat, change it whatever I like, but I cannot call it "Red Hat" anymore, which is normal. It is so simple under GPL!
No sig today.
Darned ingrained habits!
Could someone please explain why this is not already accomplished with the Blackdown project? I realize blackdown is specifically a linux implementation, but it's fully open source and their about page states, "The Blackdown project is based entirely on Java product source bases that have been licensed from Sun Microsystems." They're very up-do-date with the JDK and IIRC the project was initiated by IBM.
So is the argument that Sun should open up their JVM and libraries? Because from what I've heard and seen other JVMs like Blackdown perform quite well.
Developers: We can use your help.
Everybody knows Sun is hurting. A buyout would be good for both companies...
C is pretty darn portable (if you do non-portable things like call system routines, that's not the case, of course).
When has it happened that an open-source language has become fragmented and incompatible? Perl? Tcl? Python?
Maybe the *BSD split some years back is an example of this. But in this case it seems clear that the egos of some of the participants took precedence over the common good. This also happened at a time when there was not as much at stake (BSD was small potatoes compared to Solaris, etc).
Has the Linux core fragmented? MySQL? GCC?
Well, okay, we do we xemacs vs GNU emacs. But these are rare exceptions.
This idea that open source = fragmentation and chaos is just Microsoft FUD.
IBM: "We can help you open source it! We've got lots of experience open sourcing -ing stuff, and we know how to do it RIGHT!" ...
...
"5 Billion dollar lawsuit? What 5 billion dollar lawsuit?"
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
lots of people have been pestering Sun about java particularly mobile java. but, i'm not sure what a closed java means, and why i would develop in a space reliant upon a single source. sure Sun is doing a decent job, but when decent is not nearly enough, it doesn't matter. why aren't there teams developing new environemnts and tools? very likely because java is not open, and the investment required is too large for vagaries. i'm not quite clear as to why Sun has been so resistant to releasing java, when i would imagine most of their sales come from hardware and integration (like java desktop--it's available for free basically). getting everybody on board, including apple, would really make java attractive in the many spaces it operates. and, i would really love to develop for j2me on a mac!
C was supposed to be portable and multiplatform when it started off as well.
ANSI C is portable and multiplatform. Unfortunately there were no ANSI graphic libraries that addressed the issue of a legit GUI. As a result, MFC / Mac Toolbox came about and made things much different. However, Java shouldn't have that problem because it does contains graphic libraries that are already written. There would be no need to create another version of Java that did the same thing, and even if someone did, it probably wouldn't have much of a following.
http://www.rustyrazorblade.com
Hold on to your pants now. OPEN! It is suppose to be an *announcement* of sorts. It is intended to make news. That doesn't mean its not a legitimate offer, it is a means of either applying public pressure or just openly (there goes that word again) saying that you are willing to do your part in .
The reason Sun won't let go is because they know Java can't stand on it's own in the Free Softeware arena, where things are judged on technical merits rather than marketing pressure ...
It would die a quick death without coporate backing ...
Hah, Java is better than any of the amateur hour open source offerings. Java is a real language that is used for business apps everyday.
The OpenSource crowd has never been happy with the lack of total freedom presented by either Java or .Net, and thus campaign for the opening of both systems. There are opensource versions of both Java and .Net in heavy development, but why are we bothering? Why dont we just come up with our own Java/.Net like language, which we control, which is under the BSDL and thus an Open Standard? Why are we constantly clamouring for the owners of the systems to give us a break, when we could probably go off on our own, create our own language which is jsut as good, allows ups to stipulate our own restrictions on the usage, and best of all, we are not beholden to ANYONE because its ours 100%. While big business sometimes claims to innovate while masking the fact it bought the advancements in, there has been little innovation in the Open Source arena (dont flame, im stating it as i see it), and a lot of rushing to get where someone else has been previously.
Much of WebSphere is indeed open sourced - it's called eclipse.
You can get eclipse for free, or you can pay IBM for support by purchasing WebSphere, and you can even use eclipse as the basis for your own open source projects.
You are right. Look at all the Unix flavors and all the past efforts to unify Unixes...all failures.
I would rather SUN retains control of JAVA and I retain the capability of running my Java apps on just about any platform practically straight out of the box.
I see no benefits in an open-source JAVA. The JAVA VM and its libraries have moved along fast enough for me.
The only thing I miss is a modern JVM distributed with each Windows machine by default!!!
Here.
--- Free America - Vote Libertarian [lp.org]
Check out the Free State Project if you haven't already. They are freeing America one state at a time. :)
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
:-|
At least someone has the balls to step up to the plate. Hell almost sounds like a place i'd wanna work now. Sure has been a 360 from the ibm days i remember (AS/400) man they sucked balls back then.
thumbs up to ibm.
The only other company mentioned are Red Hat, no mention of IBM there. Seriously, Mozilla and StarOffice are the two most imortant applications (alongside KDE) which allow me to run a Linux desktop in a Windows dominated corporate, and Sun have to be thanked for their investment in both.
you wont get modded up because most of slashdot is on the open source cockboat, but you are exactly right.
C was supposed to be portable and multiplatform when it started off as well.
Multiplatform "as in Java" ("write once, run anywhere") is impossible for compiled languages such as C, because once in binary format, any change in architecture or underlying OS will break the program. In interpreted languages, the VM is there to translate to the intended hardware/OS.
The other type of "multiplatformity" would be the "write once, compile anywhere" type. For that, C is still multiplatform - provided that the necessary system libraries are available in all intended platforms, and enough care has been taken to avoid hard dependencies on the hardware (for instance, word size).
Oops - I guess he was trolling and I swallowed the hook. Mmm, nutritious...JAVA was/is
If it gets open sourced someone will co-op it, embrace-extend it, borg it, whatever and its multiplatform, WORA nature will be forever gone.
I use linux and I have never had a problem with downloading and installing Java.
This is about some overgrown children in the OS community crying to get their own way.
Steve
this is utterly ridiculous and interesting, but it's not in sun's blood. Sun: "why the hell should we give up control; we made java!" IBM: "look, if Java was open-source, more people would use it, and you are after all a services/hardware co." Sun: "Why don't you pay us for open-sourcing it?" IBM: "ehm, because..." Sun: "aha!" IBM: "Because we've just decided we're just going to buy your company for 50 billion" Sun: "REALLY??? YES!" IBM: "Um, we were just kidding. You guys suck. You have no idea what you are doing. Just Look at your Gnome situation for god sakes!" Sun: "Hey! We're planning on assassinating Miguel when he crosses the border." IBM: "It's not the 80s anymore, what the hell is wrong with you? This conversation is over!" Sun: Oh like you are so good, you know you are going to turn on everyone once you've assimilated all that can be comoditized and globalized. At least we're not freaking evil!"
And then dance on suns grave
Instead, many people are "making do" with Kaffe, SableVM, or some other JVM for their needs. All of those projects are missing some key Java technologies, but GNU Classpath is making great strides and should catch up to Sun in a year or two. After that, the Open Source Software community won't need Sun to help put out an OSS version of Java, because we'll have done it ourself!!
Sun's control is not helping Java remain "unified" and it is hindering its spread.
Now that I finally found the license I see you're right. It's a Sun license. So what's the difference between Blackdown and the JVM and libraries on Sun's site for linux? Sun already provides their Java stuff for linux, so what's the point of the port if it's the same code licensed from Sun?
Developers: We can use your help.
A petition has just been launched.
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
I'll help you!
No, thanks. I don't want to do it.
But I really think it would be cool if you did it!
No, I'd rather not.
But I'll help you!
No, thanks, I don't want to.
It will be really easy! It won't hurt a bit!
But, please, no...
But I want to help you... pretty pretty please?
and so on...
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
This offer reminds me of Fidel Castro's hilarious offer to the US to send election observers to Florida in light of the 2000 presidential election SNAFU.
You mean like Microsoft already tried to do with Java and got sued by Sun? They have already shown themselves to be anti-Java and open-source won't make it easier for them.
In any case if you say "it will never work because somebody will kill it" then they don't even have to go to that trouble, since they have already won. I don't think it's so likely that they would succeed (not that they wouldn't try) but let's consider your second argument.
In the open source community now we have some who are pro-Mono because Microsoft is letting Mono development go forwards (and because it may be better, technically). Others are anti-Mono because (I assume) they don't trust Microsoft and they like Java better. But if Sun insists on selling key parts of Java for big $$$ how are you going to fight Mono which is free?
You can say "It's IE vs Netscape all over again!" but you can't complain because Microsoft lets other people reimplement technology that they might keep under control, but don't. They seem to be doing the right thing for once (if only because they feel that they can kill Java that way).
What IBM and ESR argue is that Sun is just cooperating in their own failure by not freeing up Java so it can compete with Mono. On the other hand, Sun might say "we're making money for now, why should we free up Java and stop making that money just so that a free Java can compete better with Mono?" It's strategic vs tactical thinking - profit today vs commercial viability in 5 years, and these days, publicly traded companies usually pick the first one.
http://doldev611.development.online.dell.com/dells tore/ARBPing.asmx?WSDL
The story from the other day, and several posters today, suggest GPL as the license. This is fine for the VM, but the libraries really ought to be LGPL, otherwise IIRC only GPL applications could be developed with the free license. This could even effect open source projects with non-GPL compatible licenses.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Chorus OS is dead code from an old acquisition that sun abandoned.
That's not exactly a committment to open source.
Let me get this straight: is this an attempt to get Sun to cooperate on creating an open source Java implementation? I don't see any mention of opening up specifications, or even the to-be-developed implementation becoming the reference implementation.
If so, what's all the fuss about? We already have several efforts underway that implement Java as OSS. Why does'n IBM join them?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Sun, has done a decent job of making Java as open as possible. I think people tend to forget that the Java language specification is posted on the web without charge. The Java language specification often goes through the Java Community process so the JLS isn't completely and inbred mess. So as far as company that has one goal to make money on something Sun is being as open as they can be.
... and on and on and on with the other JRocket, and even Apple
Sun's JVM is an implementation of that JLS
IBM's JVM is an implementation of that same JLS
BlackDown is an implementation of that same JLS
With most of the implementations not offically open source this seems to mean that java itself isn't 'open'.
I think IBM wants to take Sun's VM and expand on it and be in on the ground floor so they can reap any potential earnings from the join venture. They are being as civil as a business can be by saying they want to simply help and not take it over or back-stab them, since IBM has the size and capacity to make just about anything it needs.
But pack to the open-source debacle Java can be open sourced if someone is ambitious enough. I would imagine if they didn't spend as much time badgering Sun, they might have one by now. I think Sun's apprehension of opening Java up stems from the Microsoft mess where one JVM had significantly different behavior than the Sun JVM and caused Java appear to be a defunct technology that should be avoided in leiu of ActiveX
This is my view, right or wrong I at least have one.
And, open-source software would be inconsistent because.......?
.NET and other MS software, but you still have developers who make a choice that's (hopefully) informed about lock-in. But Java on the client would be back under total MS control.
You mention Apache, MySql, Perl, PHP, and so on, but none of these projects are at risk of a malicious fork the way Java is.
We all know what Microsoft did with Java the first time around -- added in a bunch of MS-only extensions and more subtle incompatibilities, then shipped their version with every version of Windows, and put out an IDE that encouraged the use of their proprietary extensions. They also put a lot of work into making their JVM the fastest one out there, which further encouraged its use (and misuse).
Why in the world wouldn't they do that again, given this golden opportunity? Dual licensing, GPL restrictions, etc., don't help from what I can see.
Okay, under the GPL they would have to distribute it for free -- no problem, that's what they were doing before. Ah, and they'd have to release the source -- again, no problem, since it's all Windows-only extensions that cannot be supported in a cross-platform Java (do you think Sun really wants to be playing catch-up with MS, anyway?).
Java on the server would still be safer than on the client. MS could add in extensions to encourange interaction with
It wouldn't matter if they couldn't call it "Java". It would simply be the same old jview.exe that ran when you hit a JNLP link, applet, or application JAR.
Am I missing something here? I'm not neccessarily against open-sourcing Java (because I'd feel slightly safer, and I think the GUI libs would get a boost), but I think this needs to be addressed first.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
At least on slashdot there has been a lot of noise about this. There is no reason to believe that Sun will give in but they are facing a storm. I can't help but think that this .Net thing picked up enough steam that anything java does now is somewhat hopeless. Java's stance on it being a simple machine and quasi-backwards compatiable have crippled it. The fact that the JVM is a simple machine means that hardly any type information is preserved to the bytecode representation. Part of the potential of .Net is the retention of more type information which could lead to optimizations impossible to get from the less retensive java bytecode. Java has long held onto the idea that the jvm cannot be drastically changed because they consider their pseudo-backwards compatibility too important. Some people are excited about java 1.5 but to be honest all of the new features are superficial kludges that further bind the language to the jvm-- remember syntatic sugar leads to cancer of the semicolon.
We do not need java and we probably can't trust MS. So why not start our own virtual platform? We could have control of it from the beginning.
With regard to ESR: I've seen him speak and I'm not nearly as impressed with ESR as ESR is impressed with ESR.
With regard to Open Source Java: IBM doesn't want to own Java. IBM DOES want to be able to compete with Microsoft, which it can't very well do while Sun effectively stifles things (via JCP and other ways). The answer to this is Open Source Java.
Currently, in order to evolve at a mariginally reasonable rate (in the J2EE space), competitors such as IBM and BEA have to get together outside of the JCP and come up with a standard they agree on. Once this is done they can introduce it through the JCP and try and get the others to support it. If Sun doesn't like it, they can use their controlling power to stop it or mire it indefinitely. Not effective. If this happens, the fact that the two largest J2EE vendors support the initiative makes it a pseudo-standard, which isn't as good as being a part of J2EE, but is better than not having feature X, Y, or Z that Microsoft has.
I've been waiting for Sun to open up Java for a long time. If you're giving it away for free, their is little purpose in keeping it closed source, especially when other people have JVMs out there, too. The only point of freeware v. open source is that people must use your software or visit your website to get it, but that's not the case with Java. I hope Sun goes for it.
Posting logged-in because this is absolutely hilarious and I HAVE to know.
+++ATH0
Let's assume Java is open-sourced. MS will produce a change, available to everyone, which allows Java to call COM/DCOM/.NET objects. They they're change their compiler to use the feature in preference to any other ones.
Anything compiled with the default compiler on the monopoly (and very popular) platform will work only on the monopoly platform. The source code can be recompiled with a GPL'd compiler, but it still will only work on the monopoly platform
This is how MS gets around the spirit of the GPL while honoring the letter.
--
davecb@spamcop.net
Without a doubt. I can't help but smile at the whole thing. I am sure Sun would rather die than allow IBM to 'help' them.
Maybe IBM is doing this as underhanded payback for Sun's "offer of assistance" moving IBM to the so-called Java Desktop a month or two back.
As for OSS Java from what I understand, creating the VM is a well understood engineering problem. OSS VMs and compilers already exist. The problem is that a complete implementation of Java includes an immense number of classes that would have to be implemented for real application compatibility.
So, you miss a JVM distributed with Linux? Big deal. Do what other people do, bundle the JRE with your app.
And if your user base is Linux, they are probably savvy enough to download the JRE from SUN's website.
I don't really care who does what to provide a competition to SUN's JVM. What I want is the 99.9% certainty that 99.9% of my app runs straight out of the box on practically most popular computing platforms.
IBM has an excellent cross-platform language and development environment in IBM Smalltalk and VisualAge for Smalltalk. Why not release THAT as open source? It already provides equivalent features to J2EE, and already provides a better developer experience than Java does.
I mean, there is a reason Sun wanted to buy a Smalltalk implementation (not IBM's) before creating Java. </advocady>
I guess it's easy for IBM to tell Sun: "why don't you open-source your language" while keeping a secret, well secret and not doing anything themselves.
To beat .Net
IBM _tried_ to opensource AIX, but they couldn't. Futher, the opensource community wouldn't benefit much from AIX because AIX is an o-p-e-r-a-t-i-n-g s-y-s-t-em which is something totally else than what Java is (multiple things, but not an OS). No, when you were talking about stuff like Lotus Notus you'd have more of a point but still that is IMO not as important as Java. Sun could collaborate more with the FLOSS Java community, in an _active_ way; which they currently chose not to...
It's not about free for use and license it's about free from pivotal corporate control of the specification process.
.NET platform when it was submitted to the ECMA by MS, Intel and Hewlett-Packard was that IBM got to play in the standardisation process of the CLI along with Fujistu and others.
.NET besides blinking at it, but you can be damn bloody sure that every second IBM reps were sat around the table "at the ECMA" they were thiking to themselves "if only we were dicussing Java".
n g/ 44022.htm
IBM could plow more resource into it's own Java implementations but they have to have watched what happened to MS when MS ran in a direction with Java that Sun didn't like.... Here's a hint, the Java "community" didn't sue MS, Sun did.
Now IBM and Sun may notionally be sat in the same camp on many issues... but that's today.... IBM has to be looking down the road for many years to come, and if Java is crucially important to IBM then they have to be nervous about Sun exercising such control over their (IBMs) investment in Java.
The only reason why IBM showed even a slight degree of interest in the
Now this hasn't got anything to do with suggesting IBM has any substantial interest in
You can also be sure IBM noticed Intels work on portions of a BCL implementation under a BSD license.
http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/e
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocl
No, it's not huge stuff... at the moment, Intels work here was as part of the ECMA process to assess the technical merit of the spec... but you can be positive these things are nagging on IBMs mind.
There's no love lost between IBM and MS. I'm sure IBM doesn't trust MS for a second. IBM also has a massive investment in Java... huge... but don't kid yourself that there isn't a cut-off point in terms of how much IBM invests it a platform controled by Sun. IBM might be more than happy to hold hands with Sun, but they sure as hell aint going to put their testicles there, and they're reaching the point where that's what it would mean to them.
The sole question of importance to IBM with regard to Java is... "if we had to strategicaly move away from Java could we?"... if the answer to that is "yes, but not tomorrow" you'll watch IBM suddendly start to go "weird".
IBM aint Oracle, the issue aint personal for them. It's business.
The fact is that ESR knew darn well, like IBM and alot of other people in the industry (even at Sun), that market pressures were going to force Sun to consider open sourcing Java no matter what. Rather than work with Sun, or even make humble suggestions, he demands that Sun open their Java knowing darn well that no matter what happens - he will get the credit.
If Sun caves in, he gets credit ... if Sun doesn't - they loose in the marketplace and he can say "I told you so" and get credit. I gotta give it to him, it was a shrewd move on his part, but I think he's a jerk because he exploited their situation for his own personal gain and ego at everyone elses expense.
I am not supprised though, this is not the first time ESR has dome somthing like this, for example, it is little known but he happens to be a studied expert on the foundations of property law. So when people talk about intellectual property - like it's real property he knows darn well it is a bogus lie, and a fraud. But, rather than jsut say that, instead he does just the opposite and impliticly puts down his peers (like RMS) and talks about how he believs in intellectual property because hs is a "libertarian". Well bullshit, IMHO he believs in nothing other than what servs him at others expense. I think ESR is untrue to his nature and we have all suffered because of it.
Sun could always dual-licence Java. GPLing code still allows you to sell it for proprietry use.
Wikileaks, no DNS
Also, are leather chaps provided?
Through a variety of license you CAN get to the source code of Java and you CAN build an open implementation of it. You can get access to the JVM source as well. So really the question need to be more specific. What exactly do we want Sun to give access to, how do we want the license to change, and how can we make all of this happen while not breaking the 'one Java' standard and having little Java forks all over the place.
Java as open source has the potential to completely stifle .net in its childhood. Not that stopping .net is something to strive for in itself but im worried about the platform lockin Microsoft is driving towards. Java has the potential to conquer the world just as Apache and a move like this could very well let it free.
HTTP/1.1 400
they could theoretically end up having to share any source code that came in contact with the GPLed code.
Wrong. As many people have pointed out here and elsewhere, a copyright holder cannot ever be forced to GPL their copyrighted code. They *always* have the option of rejecting the GPL, and instead accepting the consequences of infringing the copyrights of the author of the GPL code that they have misappropriated.
These consequences would probably include monetary damages and an injunction against further distribution of the code. It is up to the infringer to decide whether this is more or less expensive than releasing their code under the GPL, but at least the choice is theirs.
when will IBM 'open source' REXX?
otherwise it would not have been an open letter to the public. By writing in personable, reasonable, friendly, and customer-oriented language, he's made himself into the "good guy" and portrayed himself as a part of the open-source movement. Now he's put Sun in a PR tight spot: "Do you support open source or not?" This isn't a proposal, I think it's pressure from the biggest of all blues and a clever political framing of the situation.
:)
Can anyone see why IBM would want Sun to open-source Java though? Then again, if you know, you probably work for IBM so can't say.
Quote from kaffe.org:
"Kaffe is a clean room implementation of the Java virtual machine, plus the associated class libraries needed to provide a Java runtime environment. The Kaffe virtual machine is free software, licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License."
but is there an "Open Source" C? or C++?
I mean, these are Open Standards right? So the Language spec is not really OSS, but I can down load it from ANSI and implement it if I like, right?
So, why doesn't somebody just get the freely available Java spec and implemented? Isn't that what the GCJ is doing? Isn't that Open Source? Why doesn't everyone whine to IBM to Opensource THEIR implementation of the spec, or BEA JRockit or Apple?
Sun acts as the keeper of the flame for the various Java specs, in concert with the JCP (which is an open organization BTW). Those specs are free to read and implement. FWIW, I think Sun has done a great job of keeping Java open and compatible, especially when MS tried to "embrace and extend" in '97 - '99.
I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I personally think that Java VM is a pretty nice architecture (maybe not counting the string immutability and problems with expressing dynamically typed languages and multiple inheritance). I believe that it would have been a truly brilliant idea to release Java VM under a copyleft license, before the Parrot development had started. As much as I would love to believe otherwise, it could be too late right now. But I am really looking forward, as it might turn out to be a great hobby project and a powerful new tool in the GNU system arsenal. I am sure that IBM is exactly the company who might help Java the most. Let us not forget that it is crucially important to Sun as well as IBM to undermine .Net and C# soon to be ambiguously
provided by Microsoft.
I am sure that as soon as
IBM joins Sun with that common goal,
Mac will follow not long after that.
This is great news for every one of us.
We will remember this day
for years.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
First, Sun doesn't sell Java. IBM isn't asking them to give up a revenue product.
IBM contributes to Linux (kernel and otherwise), they contribute to (and ship) Apache. IBM contributes to open source all over the place!
IBM has ~tons~ of open software http://alphaworks.ibm.com/ (not everything here is free, but check the place out!)
IBM is a real friend to the open source community. Having Java in the public domain would (in their opinion) help everyone.
If you want to put your anti-Redmond hat on, why should IBM and Sun and Blackdown and Gnu all have competing JVMs? Let open source pull in the best of breed and continue to improve the platform.
Open sourcing Java would let people beyond Sun fix bugs. It would let projects (potentially) merge. I see tons of benefit.
Sun gets more help with a product that they get no money for anyway... and they get tons of community relations points (which they need).
Agile Artisans
The JDK/JRE are already a free download. Applications developed with the JDK are freely distributable. You can also fix bugs in the source (which comes with the jdk) and send them to Sun.
The only thing that can't be done is distributing multiple JDK/JRE on a CD without a license from Sun.
So I don't really get what the great benefits of open-sourcing are, other than Redhat, Suse etc. being able to distribute JREs freely.
The Java spec is completely open, there are no undocumented details. IBM should make their own open source implementation if that's what they want.
Or... if they really don't want do do all that, they should just buy out Sun and open it up that way.
If there's anything I can't stand, it's people who complain about how other people won't do things the way that _they_ would want rather than spending their time trying to actually *DO* the things that they want.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It is impossible for Sun to guarantee WORA and at the same time for open source implementations to be developed. It just doesn't make sense: the whole idea behind open source is that people can take the code for some software system, modify it so that it works more to their taste, and redistribute the result. Sun's compatibility requirements kill that.
So, let's just be clear about this: if IBM distributes a Java implementation under an actual open source license, then that means that Sun must have changed their licenses so that they can't guarantee WORA anymore and so that neither Sun nor the JCP have any special control over the direction of the Java platform anymore.
Second, Free Software would not benefit from any influx of Java usage; it is to our credit that Java usage is substantially confined to those already obliged to use it for various more-or-less proprietary reasons, and that JVMs are only very spottily deployed on Linux and BSD hosts. Java's design was meant to attack problems that Free Software just doesn't have, and its means of solving those problems actually interferes with addressing the problems we do have. Every problem solved without Java is to our credit, and every problem solved with it creates further problems.
Third, any merit that might be found in Java inheres necessarily to a greater degree in C#, which is already substantially Free (as an ECMA standard) and which corrects many (but not most) of Java's fundamental design flaws. While C# has the same fundamental problems alluded to in the second point above, it bypasses the legal and proprietary problems Sun has imposed, even though it still reserves a rapacious corporation's ability to stab Free Software in the back at any opportune future moment.
Therefore, if Java were the answer to anything, C# would be a better answer, and any attention devoted to begging Sun for Java bones would be better spent on implementing the ECMA C# standard. In any case, that would be pointless, because Free Software doesn't need Java or C#. Their only value is to the proprietary software industry. Any Free Software attention to them delivers value to the Free Software community only insofar as it helps lead proprietary software users over the fence to freedom.
Yet, now I am reading ranting from the same community about making Java open sourced.
Steve
Given how hard Sun fought Microsoft over Microsofts adoption of Java and quick domination of the Java market, it would seem difficult for them to release that control they won back from Microsoft in the courts. That fight began the entire Monopoly case against Microsoft.
Did you just say "Delicious APIness of Swing"??? I've heard the Swing API called many things, usually involving 4-letter words, but I've never heard it called delicious.
"any reasonably competent code monkey could do it."
You seem to be saying:
1) Anyone can write a VM
2) But if you expect it to work, that's different
3) I mean, if it compiles okay, and you say its a VM, then your job is finished
4) Actually working? Damnit, that's the "high performance" option, and that's a little bit of work.
5) Stop changing the subjet, you insensitive clod!
The analogy doesn't work. Notice IBM would be offering the code. IBM already has a quality Java implementation, its just not open source and you have to register to even download it.
Since I use Eclipse I thought it would make sense to use IBM's VM to run an essentially IBM product, so its my default Java. I've read that its supposedly faster then Suns as well, though that was a while ago.
Really, the question here should be why IBM needs Sun at all, why don't they just work on releasing their implementation. I imagine there might be code in IBM's VM that is owned by other companies that prevents its immediate release (not to mention however a company like IBM makes decisions). But I don't see why they are asking for Sun's help on this. Perhaps because IBM open-sourcing their Java implementation might be seen as a act of aggression by Sun, so its kind of a peace offering.
"My impression from IBM's recent behavior is that they're not stupid."
Then you haven't seen their recent implementation of MQ Series.
Even Microsoft is laughing at them.
" IBM put JFS the AIX journaling filesystem into Linux"
Easy to do when JFS, and indeed all of AIX, is a derivative of SCO Unix and therefore it belongs to SCO.
So you admit IBM is a thief?
But IBM did just that with SWT. Now they have a better development platform than NetBeans and Sun can't figure out how to keep people from writting Ecplipse plug-ins with SWT. IBM has already demonstrated that they are willing and able to take Java in incompatible directions. Sun can't help but be wary with someone like IBM, who with SWT has already shown that it doesn't play Sun's game and is more than willing to ignore the Java "standards" without consulting anyone.
-- Jack
I think Hopkins is a fantastic actor who he can play the range from a biographical C. S. Lewis to the fictional Lecter, but I didn't think he would be that cruel to anyone.
this sounds like IBM is asking Sun if they can open source their implementation (IBM's) of java.
"You're probably familiar with Sun's Java Desktop System - it's the most popular Linux desktop on the market today"
Watch great movie opening scenes!
This has got to be the most original (and funniest) troll I have ever seen! Cant he be given a +5 Offtopic for something like this?
Oh no...the high tech machine is attacking my brain, ears, nose and body too! Its telling me to touch a girls bum!
How about SUN say okay but only if you open up DB2 and Informix.
If not then
the developers hate and boicot you, Sun.
They are developing slowly the projects for many years in C & C++ using the powerful >= GCC-3.3.3, and they wouldn't use Java, it is for nothing.
open4free
Question, not to be flamed, but I want a good reason why anyone cares about this? The only thing I can think of is that it might make the Java Community Process work faster. For the most part, you are free to use Java as you wish without paying royalitys to sun...what benefit would be had if it were open source...other than "Becuse it is now open"
It's interesting how many people think this is about the VM. IBM already has an open source VM call RVM. More interesting this VM is entirely written in Java. (http://www-124.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jikesrv m/).
But this isn't about the VM. It's the source that is compiled into a 15MB file rt.jar which is written entirely in Java that people want OSS. Sharing this code with everyone is huge. However, this Java code eventually has to interact with the underlying VM it's running on. And, this interaction is not mandated by the JLS. Classes or native methods, that Sun's API code calls, is not part of the Java API, so Sun's implementation of the API is very much tied their implementation of their VM. (Think of all the com.sun.* classes, and sun.* classes those aren't apart of the Java API).
That means if you want to run Sun's rt.jar on your VM you'll have to change the code that interacts with your VM.
This isn't about Sun's VM as much it's about their API, but their API implementation is very much apart of their VM.
> probably contains IP that IBM licensed from somebody else.
IBM has ways of dealing with this, trust me. The general rule: "For every one IP you can hang over IBM's neck, IBM has five to ten IP hanging over yours."
This, of course, is utter tripe.
Sun's Java implementation does compile to native code. It just happens to do so on-the-fly. (This is what just-in-time compilation is all about.) To call a language "compiled" or "interpreted" is a waste of time. That's just an implementation detail.
This is a great summary of a lot of the things that have been said against open sourcing Java. An entry from Charles Ditzel
Open Source Java DAO Generator
Compiling to native code before executing instead of executing directly is just an implementation detail. It only speeds up execution. To state that this blurs the division between compiled and interpreted is "utter tripe".
Interpreted: "if you have the VM installed and the necessary (mostly platform-independent) libraries, your program will run out-of-the-box". Java, Perl, Python, Lisp, C# with Mono, whatever. Of course there are often glitches and it doesn't, but it could and it should.
Compiled: "if you have the correct compiler chain, the program is very system-agnostic, and your libraries are standard-like, then you can rebuild the binary from source and execute it". C, C++, Pascal, and the like.
It would just allow Micro$oft to know how to (better?) write windows code that makes Java buggier.
Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently. - Henry Ford
I understand the distinction you're making. I deny, however, that the words "compiled" and "interpreted" capture that distinction.
It seems from your own description that "executes in a platform-independent virtual machine" and "does not execute in a platform-independent virtual machine" would be an improvement.
Compared to open-sourcing Java, even just one blissful encounter with a mare is the obvious choice.
I can smell her sweet horsey juices wafting from her dark lips. I lift up her tail and slowly ease my throbbing cock into her perfect silken hole. She neighs, and leans back onto me, eargerly taking my cock all the way. I pound her horse-twat furiously, my hands clutching her powerful velveteen haunches, until I shoot my load into her.