But getting back to your original point... Bin Laden is no longer a Saudi citizen... there have been people stripped of their citizenships in many countries, and I'm sure the process exists in the USA, just as it's possible for anyone to renounce his/her citizenship.
As in, before it became hip to collect serial killer art, make dresses out of meat, etc etc. Back in his day, showing up nude and ejecting human blood out of various orifices was beyond scandalous... there's no way on Earth to recreate that level of sensation, because of how jaded we've become.
The nailing oneself to a cross thing was not about suffering, it was about shock value. You had blasphemy and gore balled up into one. The idea was to turn deconstruction of one's core personalities by visiting the darkest corners of existence, etc. Keep in mind this was in 60s-70s ENGLAND, not the USA.
RE: My admittedly very limited experience with performance artists has given me the impression that few people take them as seriously as they take themselves.
Actually, this guy is more likely to STOP doing something as soon as people start taking it too seriously. Throbbing Gristle was aborted as it started getting popular, TOPY was abandoned when people started flocking to it, etc. I appreciate your views on performance artists - but this wasn't "Boopsie from Doonesbury" - tortured for his art, Dieter on Sprockets kind of thing. But there was a period where he was nailing himself to a cross and ingesting various bodily secretions and excretions, in public. Before it became hip. He then got into the more subversive and dangerous job of being a self-help guru of sorts for the weirdos amongst us out there. Public acts of gross indecency get you fined. Telling people they really don't have to do boring, mundane jobs and being told what to do... and BTW here's how to get your s--- together to run your own life.... apparently gets you watched by various security agencies and eventually pilloried and chucked from your home country.
RE: Still, if he'd prefer to think that he was "exiled", who am I to argue? I gather that, like Warhol, he sees his life as art, and some Suffering and Oppression at the Hands of the Petty Middle Class is probably useful for atmosphere.:)
More like, waking up to booted cops crashing through the house, destroying and removing all your personal effects and telling you to leave. Then, seeing on the news you're being depicted as a modern day Crowley prostituting and cult-duping teenage runaways...
RE: Is his music any good?
Some of it is, some of it isn't. He isn't particularly gifted as a vocalist, but he doesn't attempt to work outside what he has. Some of his stuff is utter noise, some of it is quite pretty, his work with other bands (Download, Pigface) is neat. I happen to like Godstar and Alien Be-In by Psychic TV, and United by Throbbing Gristle.
One day, it's illegal extortion and con artistry (the Pigeon Drop, the Boston wad, etc)... after jail, it's legal extortion and con artistry (Venture Capital, hey,there, these shares'll be worth $500 each in a year! Buy now! Why did I sell all mine the first day? Uh....)
Same here. Again, hardcore info is hard to come by on this guy - but he appears to be a real touchstone, things happen around him.
Keep in mind G P O isn't just a musician - he was one of the Gore artists (COUM transmissions), someone fond of exposing "interesting" facts people might not have been aware of (e.g. the fact that Dennis Thatcher has connections with Falkland Oil, which might explain Britain's rapid response to Argentinian movements into these Islands) - but most of all, his main thrust that he keeps putting forth is: you can do whatever it is you want to do. You might have to make some sacrifices, you will certainly have to work for it, but there is absolutely no reason why you have to be told what to do, where to work, etc. According to him that's the most subversive message of all. I'm inclined to agree.
The ostensible reason is his artwork - his 70s performance art pieces pushed every concievable limit of taste and decency - nudity, sex, scatology, torture, etc. and his various projects contributed greatly to rave culture (which produced - the E scourge! Live on Oprah!), body piercing (now you know who to blame when your daughter comes home with a navel ring!) industrial music, etc. When they raided his house the subject matter of much of what he had (COUM art, folio of various body piercing/modification photos, etc) were considered scandalously disgusting... he was pilloried in the press as a Satanic cult mind-melding pornographic goat pimp etc. But it makes me wonder, as you say, would that really be enough to make the authorities hound you so?
RE: Of course, the original issue was the removal of citizenship, which is obviously a separate issue from residence, or even imprisonment. Does anybody know whether he still holds a UK passport, is entitled to vote, etc.?
I believe he does not. He's welcome to visit, but that's it.
RE: As for G P'O, I'm having a little trouble getting details (based on an exhaustive 5-minute Google search -- I'd never heard of him, I'm afraid.) It looks like he's been told that he'll do time if he returns, which to me makes him an unpursued fugitive, not an exile per se, but I'm not clear on this one.
It's very difficult to get accurate information about the man, but seeing as he's returned to England to put together art gallery shows by request and not been imprisoned, I don't think the "unpursued fugitive" thing is correct. He still is unwelcome to live there. That's the problem with criticising the government for years, eventually they tell you to leave and never come back. There's a lot of smokescreen stuff around it, like accusations of cult mind control and ritual torture, that kind of thing.
RE: Depriving an American of citizenship would be an entirely different matter, and I'm not even sure that can be done.
Any country can strip citizenship from its citizens. Genesis P'Orridge was exiled from England, for example. (As was Aleister Crowley).
Believe me, birth in any country doesn't mean you have inalienable rights to citizenship there.
I bought a book from BAMM.com and was charged Illinois sales tax even though I don't live in Illinois. I questioned it and was told that was just the way it was. This was a few weeks ago.
RE: What strikes me is your generalisations; more characteristic of a liberal arts student
Was this unintentional? Or a play on "that's a typical generalisation?"
"Taking of which: Your own grammer is not so hot is it."
Not as bad as your spelling.:)
Liberal Arts is overhyped. When I went to uni I did the IBM thing and took Liberal Arts. What a hotbed of empty-headed left wing slogan-mongering and prejudicial doggerel masquerading as "progressive thinking". I actually heard some shaven-headed "womyn" student (and I use the term loosely) explain to me that given that they could put a man on the moon, the reason why they couldn't make a male birth control pill was phallocratic misogyny. When I started explaining the research (as a contributor (financially) to the MRC male contraception research team) she claimed I was trying to "blind her with science", a typical MALE trick. The discussion degenerated worse when she actually asserted the reason there's no cure for AIDS is that the oppressive patriarchy is homophobic and racist. I walked out of this "student"'s lecture with the full permission of the professor.
I'll agree with this and add something further.
If you live in Canada or some other place that allows B-12 to be sold without a perscription, get some cyanocobalamin (subcutaneous) and a subcutaneous/intramuscular syringe. I am NOT a doctor, find out from one how to do this kind of thing properly. I am NOT responsible for infection, edema, or any other weirdness as a result of NOT following this advice. Inject thyself with a standard dose (listed on the package) monthly. Ingesting B-12 is for all intents and purposes useless. Either inject it, pay someone to inject it if you're american, or shove it up your nose (intranasal - looks like a thick red syrup). Sublinguals might also work.
I used to do this monthly, and have never had any kind of B-12. I had to stop when I went to the States (what? you actually want to take care of your own health? ILLEGAL!) and am now experiencing RSI. I've been typing, the wrong way, since the age of 8 (now 29) so I can say at least anecdotally there's some connection.
There's actually a book, Design and Implement Your Own 32 Bit Operating System, I believe.
Out of print, but I've got a copy. If you can find it, buy it. It's really quite neat.
Fire off satellites into the skies, using a collaboration of various phreaks and hax0r types as well as disgruntled rocket engineers and freethinkers. Put em in geostationary orbit. Sell send/receive dishes to send/receive IPv6 (sp?) over the airwaves.
Try backhoe cutting that connection, or suing space.
Of course, the US government could shoot em all down, but... it appears to me to be the only way to avoid the legal hassles...
RE: I spent an hour today writing up an essay on the true lack of difference between ethics and morality
I agree, there's no real difference between ethics and morality. There is, however, a difference between ethics, and religion.
RE: to attempt to convince you that theologians are just as important,
Of COURSE they are, but not to science!
RE: I've been through this way too many times. I get tired of dealing with bigots who attempt to paint the philosophy of my family and friends as one of hatred, murder, and everything else that it in truth stands against.
I've met people who have used religion to better themselves, to be fulfilled, happy people, who have a tendency to follow the good stuff and gloss over the hatred. These people I like.
I do not, however, want someone like Reverend Hagee of the "I hate liberals and people with opposable thumbs" televangelist show dictating what science can and cannot be done. That is a VERY DANGEROUS SLOPE. Ask yourself what science the Taliban would allow.
Refering to anything as Nazi, or referring to Hitler or Nazis is a BLATANT attempt, usually, to muddy the waters by introducing significant emotional attachment to the speaker's point.
He could merely have said "unethical stuff could be done" and we could have argued the merits and non-merits thereof "we need church leaders overseeing science, or else we'll have Nazi Death Camps" (I'm paraphrasing the unspoken intent) is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.
I've personally bought Quake III even though I haven't the hardware to run it: Soldier of Fortune, Myth II, Heroes of Might and Magic III, and Heretic II.
All to support the company, if nothing else. Will buy the remaining titles soon...
RE: GWB is not all that concerned with the scientific aspects of this.
For the last time, I don't care what is most politically expedient for George goddamned Bush. I care about who's deciding what science gets to be studied. And we've supposedly come a long way from the days when men in robes carrying outdated, dusty tomes dictated the policy.
RE:Faith is not the antithesis of reason.
Faith is absolutely the antithesis of reason. Faith involves accepting something WITHOUT proof. Reason by definition REQUIRES proof.
RE: For example, you don't have objective, rational proof that the floor that's holding you up will continue to hold you up.
The chances of concrete and steel suddenly giving way are exceedingly low. It can be empirically shown that steel and concrete can withstand X amount and kinds of load. The days when people believed everything was composed of air, water, fire and earth cause some old Greek said so are gone.
RE: No one will even have scientific proof for the reason that the universe exists. Your world view proceeds based on some sort of faith - faith in science, perhaps?
Not necessarily a faith. A belief, but that can be based on observation.
RE: It is not reasonable to judge a philosophy by its abuses.
"A good tree cannot bear rotten fruit" - God (according to you)
RE: Nevertheless, the Bible does not, and has not ever said that the world is flat.
Not so! There is a VERY detailed description about how the world rests on pillars, and the stars rotate on some kind of canopy over the whole plane somewhere in the OT. If you read the Bible literally. That is why the heliocentric view was considered heresy. By the way, while we're at it, bats are not birds, and rabbits don't chew cuds.
RE: I must confess that I don't understand what you mean here. Would you please explain further? I've read that sentence several times, and I'm just not getting it.
2+2 = 4 because 2+2=4, as opposed to it being true or not because I'm a materialist, or a Gideon, or a Satanist, or whatever. Get it now?
RE: Well, he was thinking more freely than Rome wanted him to
The discussion, originally, was about how theologians toe the "party line". Luther didn't toe Rome's line, he toed what he considered to be God's. Makes no difference either way.
RE: Yes. God's will is written in the Bible - that I am to love my neighbor as I love myself.
And what proof have you that God's will is written in the Bible?
RE: The English language changes over time, as does every other language in use. Good current translations agree in the rendering "commit murder." Besides, it would be irrational to believe on one hand that all killing is wrong, and on the other that God would tell his people to do what He said was wrong. You wouldn't want me to be irrational, would you?:-)
Oh, I see, committing murder is wrong, but killing people when God tells you to is right. Got it. Don't jail me! The voices in my head said it was OK!
RE:As such, if one wants to really understand the meaning, one must have a thorough understanding of the original language and cultural context.
Oh dear. Well, given that I'm not a Habiru living 4,000 years ago, that means that I'll never fully understand God's will. Oh well.
RE: What standard do you use to determine right from wrong?
What you refer to as "the golden rule" - but I didn't get it from the Bible. In fact, in one form or another, it is supposedly the root of all religions - but there's all that other stuff, like, "don't kill him because you wouldn't want to be killed, unless God commands you to. So strap that nail bomb to your chest and go shopping in the busiest part of Jerusalem" that kind of thing.
What does that have to do with what is right for science?
RE: BTW - you assert that Christians are irrational,
Eh? Having FAITH is by definition suspending one's rationality. If one has rational proof, it is no longer faith. Why is this some kind of attack, according to you?
RE: believe that the Bible says the earth is flat. None of those is true of Christianity.
Copernicus would disagree.
RE: You then have the chutzpah to tell me that I'm producing ad hominem attacks by asserting a view consistent with materialist philosophy. Give me a break.
It is in fact true that it is a fallacy to argue that someone's value system has any relevance to what is asserted.
Slashdot Mirror
But getting back to your original point... Bin Laden is no longer a Saudi citizen... there have been people stripped of their citizenships in many countries, and I'm sure the process exists in the USA, just as it's possible for anyone to renounce his/her citizenship.
As in, before it became hip to collect serial killer art, make dresses out of meat, etc etc. Back in his day, showing up nude and ejecting human blood out of various orifices was beyond scandalous... there's no way on Earth to recreate that level of sensation, because of how jaded we've become.
The nailing oneself to a cross thing was not about suffering, it was about shock value. You had blasphemy and gore balled up into one. The idea was to turn deconstruction of one's core personalities by visiting the darkest corners of existence, etc. Keep in mind this was in 60s-70s ENGLAND, not the USA.
RE: My admittedly very limited experience with performance artists has given me the impression that few people take them as seriously as they take themselves.
:)
Actually, this guy is more likely to STOP doing something as soon as people start taking it too seriously. Throbbing Gristle was aborted as it started getting popular, TOPY was abandoned when people started flocking to it, etc. I appreciate your views on performance artists - but this wasn't "Boopsie from Doonesbury" - tortured for his art, Dieter on Sprockets kind of thing. But there was a period where he was nailing himself to a cross and ingesting various bodily secretions and excretions, in public. Before it became hip. He then got into the more subversive and dangerous job of being a self-help guru of sorts for the weirdos amongst us out there. Public acts of gross indecency get you fined. Telling people they really don't have to do boring, mundane jobs and being told what to do... and BTW here's how to get your s--- together to run your own life.... apparently gets you watched by various security agencies and eventually pilloried and chucked from your home country.
RE: Still, if he'd prefer to think that he was "exiled", who am I to argue? I gather that, like Warhol, he sees his life as art, and some Suffering and Oppression at the Hands of the Petty Middle Class is probably useful for atmosphere.
More like, waking up to booted cops crashing through the house, destroying and removing all your personal effects and telling you to leave. Then, seeing on the news you're being depicted as a modern day Crowley prostituting and cult-duping teenage runaways...
RE: Is his music any good?
Some of it is, some of it isn't. He isn't particularly gifted as a vocalist, but he doesn't attempt to work outside what he has. Some of his stuff is utter noise, some of it is quite pretty, his work with other bands (Download, Pigface) is neat. I happen to like Godstar and Alien Be-In by Psychic TV, and United by Throbbing Gristle.
One day, it's illegal extortion and con artistry (the Pigeon Drop, the Boston wad, etc)... after jail, it's legal extortion and con artistry (Venture Capital, hey,there, these shares'll be worth $500 each in a year! Buy now! Why did I sell all mine the first day? Uh....)
Same here. Again, hardcore info is hard to come by on this guy - but he appears to be a real touchstone, things happen around him.
Keep in mind G P O isn't just a musician - he was one of the Gore artists (COUM transmissions), someone fond of exposing "interesting" facts people might not have been aware of (e.g. the fact that Dennis Thatcher has connections with Falkland Oil, which might explain Britain's rapid response to Argentinian movements into these Islands) - but most of all, his main thrust that he keeps putting forth is: you can do whatever it is you want to do. You might have to make some sacrifices, you will certainly have to work for it, but there is absolutely no reason why you have to be told what to do, where to work, etc. According to him that's the most subversive message of all. I'm inclined to agree.
The ostensible reason is his artwork - his 70s performance art pieces pushed every concievable limit of taste and decency - nudity, sex, scatology, torture, etc. and his various projects contributed greatly to rave culture (which produced - the E scourge! Live on Oprah!), body piercing (now you know who to blame when your daughter comes home with a navel ring!) industrial music, etc. When they raided his house the subject matter of much of what he had (COUM art, folio of various body piercing/modification photos, etc) were considered scandalously disgusting... he was pilloried in the press as a Satanic cult mind-melding pornographic goat pimp etc. But it makes me wonder, as you say, would that really be enough to make the authorities hound you so?
RE: Of course, the original issue was the removal of citizenship, which is obviously a separate issue from residence, or even imprisonment. Does anybody know whether he still holds a UK passport, is entitled to vote, etc.?
I believe he does not. He's welcome to visit, but that's it.
RE: As for G P'O, I'm having a little trouble getting details (based on an exhaustive 5-minute Google search -- I'd never heard of him, I'm afraid.) It looks like he's been told that he'll do time if he returns, which to me makes him an unpursued fugitive, not an exile per se, but I'm not clear on this one.
It's very difficult to get accurate information about the man, but seeing as he's returned to England to put together art gallery shows by request and not been imprisoned, I don't think the "unpursued fugitive" thing is correct. He still is unwelcome to live there. That's the problem with criticising the government for years, eventually they tell you to leave and never come back. There's a lot of smokescreen stuff around it, like accusations of cult mind control and ritual torture, that kind of thing.
Including your notebooks? Please direct me to somewhere where you can buy all the notebook parts to "build your own".
RE: Depriving an American of citizenship would be an entirely different matter, and I'm not even sure that can be done.
Any country can strip citizenship from its citizens. Genesis P'Orridge was exiled from England, for example. (As was Aleister Crowley).
Believe me, birth in any country doesn't mean you have inalienable rights to citizenship there.
This coming from a country whose government ORDERS foreign companies to collect its GST.
Why the heck should an American company charge and collect GST for the Canadian government when something gets sent to Canada?
That's why many companies won't sell to Canada. They don't need the business. And the tax paperwork and hassle is too expensive, besides.
Think before you mouth off. Engage brain, then speak.
I bought a book from BAMM.com and was charged Illinois sales tax even though I don't live in Illinois. I questioned it and was told that was just the way it was. This was a few weeks ago.
My last purchase from BAMM, BTW.
RE: What strikes me is your generalisations; more characteristic of a liberal arts student
:)
Was this unintentional? Or a play on "that's a typical generalisation?"
"Taking of which: Your own grammer is not so hot is it."
Not as bad as your spelling.
Liberal Arts is overhyped. When I went to uni I did the IBM thing and took Liberal Arts. What a hotbed of empty-headed left wing slogan-mongering and prejudicial doggerel masquerading as "progressive thinking". I actually heard some shaven-headed "womyn" student (and I use the term loosely) explain to me that given that they could put a man on the moon, the reason why they couldn't make a male birth control pill was phallocratic misogyny. When I started explaining the research (as a contributor (financially) to the MRC male contraception research team) she claimed I was trying to "blind her with science", a typical MALE trick. The discussion degenerated worse when she actually asserted the reason there's no cure for AIDS is that the oppressive patriarchy is homophobic and racist. I walked out of this "student"'s lecture with the full permission of the professor.
I'll agree with this and add something further.
If you live in Canada or some other place that allows B-12 to be sold without a perscription, get some cyanocobalamin (subcutaneous) and a subcutaneous/intramuscular syringe. I am NOT a doctor, find out from one how to do this kind of thing properly. I am NOT responsible for infection, edema, or any other weirdness as a result of NOT following this advice. Inject thyself with a standard dose (listed on the package) monthly. Ingesting B-12 is for all intents and purposes useless. Either inject it, pay someone to inject it if you're american, or shove it up your nose (intranasal - looks like a thick red syrup). Sublinguals might also work.
I used to do this monthly, and have never had any kind of B-12. I had to stop when I went to the States (what? you actually want to take care of your own health? ILLEGAL!) and am now experiencing RSI. I've been typing, the wrong way, since the age of 8 (now 29) so I can say at least anecdotally there's some connection.
There's actually a book, Design and Implement Your Own 32 Bit Operating System, I believe.
Out of print, but I've got a copy. If you can find it, buy it. It's really quite neat.
Keep in mind Canadian Law is goverened by the Young Offenders Act.
Maximum Sentence for ANYTHING (mass murder, etc) is three years.
By the standards of that act, he was punished very hard.
Gandhi's a plagiarist. That quote originally came from Oscar Wilde.
Details, man!
What kinds? Who? Where?
The rest of this has been taken to email...
Fire off satellites into the skies, using a collaboration of various phreaks and hax0r types as well as disgruntled rocket engineers and freethinkers. Put em in geostationary orbit. Sell send/receive dishes to send/receive IPv6 (sp?) over the airwaves.
Try backhoe cutting that connection, or suing space.
Of course, the US government could shoot em all down, but... it appears to me to be the only way to avoid the legal hassles...
RE: I spent an hour today writing up an essay on the true lack of difference between ethics and morality
I agree, there's no real difference between ethics and morality. There is, however, a difference between ethics, and religion.
RE: to attempt to convince you that theologians are just as important,
Of COURSE they are, but not to science!
RE: I've been through this way too many times. I get tired of dealing with bigots who attempt to paint the philosophy of my family and friends as one of hatred, murder, and everything else that it in truth stands against.
I've met people who have used religion to better themselves, to be fulfilled, happy people, who have a tendency to follow the good stuff and gloss over the hatred. These people I like. I do not, however, want someone like Reverend Hagee of the "I hate liberals and people with opposable thumbs" televangelist show dictating what science can and cannot be done. That is a VERY DANGEROUS SLOPE. Ask yourself what science the Taliban would allow.
Refering to anything as Nazi, or referring to Hitler or Nazis is a BLATANT attempt, usually, to muddy the waters by introducing significant emotional attachment to the speaker's point.
He could merely have said "unethical stuff could be done" and we could have argued the merits and non-merits thereof "we need church leaders overseeing science, or else we'll have Nazi Death Camps" (I'm paraphrasing the unspoken intent) is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.
Hence, Godwin's law.
I've personally bought Quake III even though I haven't the hardware to run it: Soldier of Fortune, Myth II, Heroes of Might and Magic III, and Heretic II.
All to support the company, if nothing else. Will buy the remaining titles soon...
RE: GWB is not all that concerned with the scientific aspects of this.
For the last time, I don't care what is most politically expedient for George goddamned Bush. I care about who's deciding what science gets to be studied. And we've supposedly come a long way from the days when men in robes carrying outdated, dusty tomes dictated the policy.
RE:Faith is not the antithesis of reason.
Faith is absolutely the antithesis of reason. Faith involves accepting something WITHOUT proof. Reason by definition REQUIRES proof.
RE: For example, you don't have objective, rational proof that the floor that's holding you up will continue to hold you up.
The chances of concrete and steel suddenly giving way are exceedingly low. It can be empirically shown that steel and concrete can withstand X amount and kinds of load. The days when people believed everything was composed of air, water, fire and earth cause some old Greek said so are gone.
RE: No one will even have scientific proof for the reason that the universe exists. Your world view proceeds based on some sort of faith - faith in science, perhaps?
Not necessarily a faith. A belief, but that can be based on observation.
RE: It is not reasonable to judge a philosophy by its abuses.
"A good tree cannot bear rotten fruit" - God (according to you)
RE: Nevertheless, the Bible does not, and has not ever said that the world is flat.
Not so! There is a VERY detailed description about how the world rests on pillars, and the stars rotate on some kind of canopy over the whole plane somewhere in the OT. If you read the Bible literally. That is why the heliocentric view was considered heresy. By the way, while we're at it, bats are not birds, and rabbits don't chew cuds.
RE: I must confess that I don't understand what you mean here. Would you please explain further? I've read that sentence several times, and I'm just not getting it.
2+2 = 4 because 2+2=4, as opposed to it being true or not because I'm a materialist, or a Gideon, or a Satanist, or whatever. Get it now?
RE: Well, he was thinking more freely than Rome wanted him to
:-)
The discussion, originally, was about how theologians toe the "party line". Luther didn't toe Rome's line, he toed what he considered to be God's. Makes no difference either way.
RE: Yes. God's will is written in the Bible - that I am to love my neighbor as I love myself.
And what proof have you that God's will is written in the Bible?
RE: The English language changes over time, as does every other language in use. Good current translations agree in the rendering "commit murder." Besides, it would be irrational to believe on one hand that all killing is wrong, and on the other that God would tell his people to do what He said was wrong. You wouldn't want me to be irrational, would you?
Oh, I see, committing murder is wrong, but killing people when God tells you to is right. Got it. Don't jail me! The voices in my head said it was OK!
RE:As such, if one wants to really understand the meaning, one must have a thorough understanding of the original language and cultural context.
Oh dear. Well, given that I'm not a Habiru living 4,000 years ago, that means that I'll never fully understand God's will. Oh well.
RE: What standard do you use to determine right from wrong?
What you refer to as "the golden rule" - but I didn't get it from the Bible. In fact, in one form or another, it is supposedly the root of all religions - but there's all that other stuff, like, "don't kill him because you wouldn't want to be killed, unless God commands you to. So strap that nail bomb to your chest and go shopping in the busiest part of Jerusalem" that kind of thing.
RE: It's a reality of political life.
What does that have to do with what is right for science?
RE: BTW - you assert that Christians are irrational,
Eh? Having FAITH is by definition suspending one's rationality. If one has rational proof, it is no longer faith. Why is this some kind of attack, according to you?
RE: believe that the Bible says the earth is flat. None of those is true of Christianity.
Copernicus would disagree.
RE: You then have the chutzpah to tell me that I'm producing ad hominem attacks by asserting a view consistent with materialist philosophy. Give me a break.
It is in fact true that it is a fallacy to argue that someone's value system has any relevance to what is asserted.