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Mafiaboy Gets His Wrist Slapped
An anonymous reader writes: "Mafiaboy, the Canadian 'hacker' that did the DOS on Ebay, Amazon, Excite, CNN, etc. has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. Prosecuters think this will be a message to 'hackers' that do this kind of thing. I say the message should be to the scriptkiddies who obviously don't know how to cover their tracks, to at least learn to do so before they download malicious software." The other message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy.
Seems to me 8 months in juvenile detention is not 'getting his wrist slapped'. At 17, 8 months is an eternity. This will n ot be nice for him.
Michael
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
So, basically, the message is "Don't try to fight us - you'll be slapped?"
That's not a good message at all. It should either be: Don't even try cause you can't break through (which is crap) or Don't even try because we'll use our lawyers to grind you into a financial and legal pulp.
Neither of these are very helpful to the government, or to industry...
What a wishy-washy end to a case that could have set some important precedents and lessons...
When nuance becomes the only objective we lose the ability to function
8 months for a scrawny nerd in a juvenile detention center? He's going to get the shit kicked out of him regularly, I would surmise. That's a pretty hard sentence for running some other idiot's code.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
At least, this Mafiaboy has gotten a "bad boy!" message...
"Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
- Sledge Hammer
So he got 8 months of detentions and he will be allowed occasional visits to family and friends during his time in detention. Besides, have you guys seen Canadian detention centers? They get treated better than ordinary people.
..was the figure listed in the article. I swear, do they pull these numbers out of air? I can hardly see that ebay, yahoo and the like being offline for half a day is worth 1.3 billion.
Especially seeing as they, as business entities, aren't capable of making that much money. And money that fails to move isn't 'lost in damages', it just doesn't move.
yea, the sentence seems a little short. I mean, sure 8 months may seem like a "long time", but if you engage in criminal activities as such, don't expect to get off light. just because the crime was committed on a computer, dosn't mean that it's any less of a crime.
I know some people would disagree with me, but I'm quite set on my view with this. It's not like he was trying to perpetrate freedom of information or anything like that. He didn't crack CSS or E-Book security.
I really doubt we'll be seeing any "Free Mafiaboy" buttons, banners or bumper stickers
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
With Windows XP and raw sockets, covering their tracks shouldn't be a problem anymore. As long as they can find their n3w l33t h4x0r warez.
the sex is forbidden for the kids, and they are attracted to it. Alcohol forbidden, and they are attracted to it. Smoking - same story. So does "hacking" (script... whatever)
YOU spend 8 months imprisoned (youth oriented is STILL a lack of freedom) and a year being watched over like a hawk. Then tell me it's "rediculously easy".
No, what this proves is that corporate America can point there finger and judicial america will do their bidding.
Do you call that sentance a slap on the wrist. Thats a rediculous statement. That sentance if overly harsh at best. 8 months in what is basically Jail for teenagers, and 1 year probation? Thats a pretty harsh sentance. Things like this dont make retribution for what hackers did, and in the case of teenagers like Mafiaboy, they only hurt the potential of what a smart young computer nerd could end up becoming, because he was thrown in jail. I personally think all hackers should only be on probation (WITH computer access), or in country club prisons, or forced to work for the government or something of that nature. To incarcirate a hacker is stupid, and puts them in the same ranks as murderers and drug dealers.
Jeff Knox
... Don't know about that, 8 months is a long ass time, and a complete disruption of a 17 yr old's life. Sucks to be him.
I don't know what you think is easy about it. I spent time in a youth detention center and now as an adult every body I know that spends time in jail for DUI or otherwise tells me they would rather be in an adult prison than a youth detention center. In jail you get a TV, a matress some luxuries. In a youth center you get a thin matress resting on a concrete slab and that's it. No bathroom in your cell, no TV nothing.
Also consider he will be surrounded by criminals who will likely kick the shit out of him regularly for being a "geek".
There is nothing easy about this. Adults have rights, youths do not as a matter of law. It's a kangaroo court system. They sentenced him to 8 months but that could eaily turn into 8 years as he is likely to make fuck ups in there and will have to defend himself against the others which will make his time harder and longer.
I feel sorry for him. Most people who go to a youth detention center often times become criminals as adults.
I don;t know the details, he may very well deserve this, but I honestly from a first hand perspective don't think anyone deserves what the youth detention centers dish out.
Keep in mind Canadian Law is goverened by the Young Offenders Act.
Maximum Sentence for ANYTHING (mass murder, etc) is three years.
By the standards of that act, he was punished very hard.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I think Mafiaboy's age has to be taken into consideration. We don't want to go wrecking people's lives here just because of some childish mistake.
Mafiaboy obviously did this just for the attention. What he really needs is a little love & compassion, hopefully at home.
If he was American (or perhaps Russian *cough*Dmitry*cough*) would you think this sentance was lame?
Also I'd like to point out that Taco's postscript editorials are getting more and more annoying.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Guess what? Ok, so I was in this computer...
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
So scriptkiddies get next to no sentence, but talented programmers doing quazi-legal hacks get many years without access to any computer equipment.
That stinks.
I say throw the book at the scriptkiddies. Maybe that will get them to stop scanning my cable modem IP address! I hate going through my firewall logs...
From the crowd that normally screams at how 'harsh' penalties for hackeres are, this shocks me.
A 17 year old kid.. under our legal system, he's a *kid*, a jeuvenile. Why should he do hard prison time for this? How will that benefit society? 8 months in juvie is *plenty*, especially considering he didn't really hurt anyone. Sorry.. he may have, on paper, cost some *huge* *foreign* companies some cash..... but that's about it.
What kind of sentence do you want? Will you not be satisfied until his life is ruined?
8 months is a long time. Think of all you have done in the last 8 months, since January, and imagine being in a youth detention center instead.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Isn't this the same /. that said Mafiaboy was a scapegoat?
marotti.com
I don't want to hear anybody aping at the 'ridiculously light' sentence. I'm just gald the legal system worked the way it was supposed to. If people laugh too hard, then maybe they will start putting 15 year olds away for 10 and 20 years for performing, basically, nothing crimes which are on par with vandalism.
People couldn't access their email for a day and visit a bunch of so-so websites that only money mongers really care about. Nobody got hurt, and it showed that the web is what it is. --A geek project held together by duct tape, infused with a ton of money, and taken over by the popular kids and their big companies.
-Fantastic Lad
"Mafiaboy, [...] has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. [...] The [other] message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy. "
That seems fair to me, and in line with society's expectations. Was the crime so heinous that he needed to be tried as an adult? No. Was the crime so heinous that he needed a sentance as long as those handed down to rapists and murders? No. Please don't forgot, other countries aren't as keen as Americans seem to be when it comes to locking people up, and for how long they get locked away, e.g. murder in Britain might get you 20 years, but in the US life or even execution.
what is interesting was canada's cooperation in this matter -- if you are going to run, head south ;)
kidding aside for a moment taco, what punishment do you think would actually be reasonable?
slapping him with a huge ridiculous fine that he'd never be able to pay wouldn't have any teeth.
and really, while I think DOS attacks deserve mitnick like sentencing on the kiddies, the protocols and the peering naps should be able to solve this -- its tech, fight it with tech.
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
hopefully he doest get the "been there, done that" attitude, I mean sure 8 months, will this "scare him straight" or will it not scare him, and cause him to do worse acts because he's "been there before"?
I SURVIVED THE GREAT SLASHDOT BLACKOUT OF 2002!
ok, silly question, probably not. but then again, what about the library or any number of other locations?
and the really important question:
do they honestly think when he gets out he wont ever do anything "bad again"? like, where's the real motivation? 8 months in juvie hall, huh
..I heard that he started crying like a baby when the judge pronounced his sentence. What a fucking pansy...
I think a public caning and the revoking of his access to computers for a year or two would be better. If more people got an ass beating for being a punk, I think it would have a better effect than locking them up with other criminals.
Please... its not as if he caused the billions of dollars in damage that those sites claimed. Oh no, they were down for an hour!
I am not going to say what Mafia Boy did was right. You can justify it however you wish or let the courts decide (which they have).
I will say this: Let the punishment fit the crime.
I did a small stint in a "work farm/community service" facility for something stupid I did a long time ago. Heh, you'd be surprised how much a loss of freedom of only a month will affect you.
I gained no insight besides one: even the most intelligent person is capable of doing the stupidest things.
It's ok to do something stupid, just learn from your mistakes.
Moose.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
It's not his wrist I'd like to see slapped. It's his ass by the balls of someone who's not going to take his arrogant shit, but shove it farther into him.
You are calling 8 MONTHS in a correctional facility an EASY sentence for a youth? 8 months out of any person's life is a significant portion, but for a youth it could be extremely harmfull, as he is still open to so much influence.
Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.
8 months for damage costing $1.8 billion
Kid should be hung by his scrotum....
It only makes sense to me!
For those of us who actually know him, he was/is an arrogant little prick and he got what he deserved.
I spent 4 months in the San Jose Juvi. I was not a total geek, but I sure as hell was not a gang-banger... which is exactly what everyone else was in there. I only got into one fight, but fights are the least of your worries. Try to imagine what it's like to be surrounded by murderers and rapists all day long. I will assume that he is relatively bright, and will have to deal with being in a confined space with people who are not only ignorant and poorly educated, but also very intolerant of educated-types.
4 months was way too long for me, 8 months would be an eternity. Granted... he will likely not have to deal with the sort of racism I faced (I was 1 of 4 white people, our of 600) in San Jose, but he is definetly not getting off easy.
I suppose this sentencing has something to do with the SIN-flood attacks hitting my school right now. It's disrupted one of our classes today... Anybody else get hit by some luser h@x()r script kiddies who were bored during study hall?
who said getting 8 months is not getting his wrist slapped or rediculously easy.
Sounds like it really really sucks to me.
I just wanted to point out that By canadian Juvenile law, the 8 month sentence plus probation the kid got is quite severe! And let's not forget that Yahoo, eBay and company never even bothered to try and prove during the trial that they suffered any losses at all!! I guess they figured out they wouldn't get any of their money back... What's a judge to do? Give 5 years when nobody's really complaining??
would you know about youth detention centers?
"The other message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy"
Looking back to stories and posts about these types of offenders leads me to believe there is a serious double standard around here.
Think back and you'll remember everyone complaining that Kevin Mitnick received too harsh a sentence for his hacking/cracking actitivies. I even recall some posters mentioning that a rape/murder gets less time than Kevin's sentence. That was for an adult - maybe even the adult who is considered the *definitive* hacker's hacker, cracker's cracker and such; but that sentence was perceived as totally out of line.
Now we get this teen ager who is pretty much the poster child definition for the term "script kiddie" and a sentence of 8-9 months in juvie is too light a sentence..
Seems to me that the sentence should fit the crime. What he did is really the equivalent of spray painting the front of the local wal-mart - vandalism for sure but hardly a capital crime; he got a reasonable sentence.
h3110 l4mUrz,
1 4m a 15 yr 0ld h4X0r/cr4ckX0r, 4nd i th3nk th4t t3h s3nt1nce r1lly SUXX0RZ!!! i 4m more s/\/\a4tur then 4ll j00 0lde phart PUNKX0r S1S-4DMINZ c0mbinde!#% JOO PH33R MY 5K33LZ, i w1ll p1ngn00k joo and fr4ggX0r jur ARSE in c0uNtArStRiEk!!! i am 1337.. 4LL J00R B4S3 R B3L0NGZ 2 US!!!!!
---===[[[{{{N33T-0 31337-0}}}]]]===--- [xRc]
PHR33 MAPHIAB0Y!!!!!
/s
/save
/exit
/qut
/quit
h0w do i sa3v? th3si sint pien!!$ GRR!! greppin tarball
And I say the government should stop spending their time protecting rich companies from their own stupidity and start protecting citizens from being killed. Poor poor Ebay lost a few million of fucking business. Let's stop people from killing each other before we worry about such things.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Folks, he's a kid. In the U.S. and Canada children (<18) have a different set of laws that apply to them. Check out this site, where I found the following:
Generally, the maximum prison sentence for a young offender is two years. It goes up to a maximum ofthree years for offences that could be punishable (for an adult) by life imprisonment, and for first degree murder it is now ten years, up to six years of which can be in an institution, with the remainder served in the community under supervision. For second degree murder, the total sentence can be up to seven years, with up to four years of it being served in the institution.
The idea is that a kid gets leeway because he's not mature enough to understand the consequnces of his actions. So stop wringing your hands about how he got off light, all kids get off light unless they're tried as adults.
The message to script kiddies is simple: Do it while you're young! Don't wait until your 18th birthday!
don't forget to investigate your chances of acquiring this URL (including a year's free web hosting), from us. then, if need be, during quiet times, you could "vandalize" your very own WebSite.
Wasn't there something in the news several months ago about some Chinese hackers there were sentenced to like death for breaking into a bank and stealing money? Although this kid did cause over 1 billion dollars in damages, sentencing a 'script kiddie' to jail/probation and a small fine seems a bit stupid and prob should be re-examined in the future.
-- M
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
667 "one up" on the beast.
It's yours to keep if you one two!
What does the outside world think of slashdot when one day everyone is yelling that Dmitry Sklyarov should be set free even though he violated the DMCA and created and sold illegal software. Then the next day a 17 year old script kiddy who DOS attacked a few sites and got a punishment of 8 months in a detention center, and everyone is angry that his punishment isn't enough? How could the common person get any understanding what slashdot's ideology is?
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Easy? Easy?
He got fined CDN$250!!!! That's, what, 1/2 the Gross National Product of Canada?
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
Lets look at the figures of damage supposedly caused by Mafiaboy and see if he deserves a rewards, not a prison sentance. The estimated figure of damage was 1.3Billion combined from eBay, Yahoo, and Amazon. Lets first look at revenue and losses of these companies. They dont make any profit, which is what will be my point. This information has been culled from finance.yahoo.com (Interesting how yhoo's profile on finance.yahoo.com is more flavorly and flattering then any other stocks).
Yahoo (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html )
"For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues decreased 28% to $362.4 million.
"Net loss totaled $60 million vs. an income of $120.9 million."
Ok. So in the first six months of this year they only had revenue of 362.4 million, and had a Net Loss of 60 million. Devide 60 million by (365/2/2, or 91.25, a figure for a half a day of revenue) and you get $657,534 dollars of Losses they did not have because their site was down. So in this case Yahoo loss 3.97 million in revenues, which would of resulted in $657,534 of losses. So Mafiaboy saved Yahoo $657,534 in all reality.
eBay (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/e/ebay.html )
"For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues rose 82% to $335 million."
"Net income totaled $45.7 million, up from $9.2 million."
Ok. So eBay is making a profit. So revenue losses in ebays case is very similar to yahoo at $3.67 million. And actually profit losses are $500,822. So their is real loss associated with his attack. $500,822 dollars in eBay's case (if at all, because in reality, the auctions still went on, and eBay still collected all their fees).
Amazon.com (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/a/amzn.html )
"For the the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues increased 19% to $1.37 billion"
"Net loss before acct. change fell 37% to $392 million."
Amazon has a significantly higher revenue then eBay and Yahoo as we see. So revenue loss for that half day would be 15million. Net loss Amazon.com was saved from that 15 million, $4.3million.
Summary
Adding up the total half day losses of revenue for all the companies equals $22.64 million in loss revenue. Of that $4.96 million would of been losses, and only $500,822 thousand would be profit. So the net amount of money it could be considered that Mafiaboy saved these three companies is 4.45million dollars. If you add up the half year revenues of these companies it was only around 2 billion. And thats for HALF A YEAR. Amazon.com accounting for most of that. No way Mafiaboy caused 1.3 billion in damage, not matter how you look at it. I know their is more then revenue, such as employees over time and whatnot. But still looking at the figures 23 million of damage at best (because no one can say these companies actually ended up loosing sales, and in eBays case, it probably did not have much of a effect if any), or looking at it from another viewpoint, you could say Mafiaboy saved these companies over 4 million dollars.
PS. Dont take this as an approval of Mafiaboys actions. What he did was wrong, no matter what way you look at it.
Jeff Knox
...so then, I hear on the news this morning, that some ATM in, like, Iowa or something, just started spitting money out into the street! That was me...I did that
do not read this line twice.
It's pretty sad to see this kind of hypocrisy on Slashdot. The dichotomy between the attitude towards "Script Kiddies" and the attitude towards those considered truely elite is disgusting: Hackers are met with sympathy and understanding; script kiddies almsot face a lynch-happy slashdot posse.
He's a minor. I think 8 months is sufficent.
I remember when this shit went down, and I remember when they arrested Mafiaboy. I think they ended up arresting Mafiaboy because of something he said on IRC, but the truth of the matter is that the authorities have absolutely no idea who launched those DOS attacks. Mafiaboy was just the easiest target.
The Information Revolution will be fought on the command line.
Oh, that site? I'd never mention that, especially not while eating lunch.
******
"What makes you think I care about your opinions?"
....back in elementary school. I don't know why we didn't just call it "soccer". ;-)
-Vic
One of my friends served a year in a so called "detention center". I say so called becouse it just a prision for kids. He got into fights everyday and go the shit kicked out of him. 8 months might not sound like a lot, but dont think thats its easy becouse you have never been there.
Mess Stuff Up
Oh fuck, let me cut it short. 8 months sentence for a prank that did no physical harm is not a wrist slap. I don't know what you were expecting exactly, perhaps he should have had is hands sawn off? Because you couldn't get to fscking Yahoo that day? Oh no!
Get some perspective. Jesus H. Christ, look around you, the planet's falling apart. And you're railing against some punk kid who disrupted traffic on a network of computers.
Now that sucks! Anything like that should be a permanent part of your record. That's part of the problem with idiot teens like this. They know darn well that basically anything they do before 18 doesn't get punished or have any permanent consequences. (Course most are too stupid to stop when they turn 18).
Canada needs to ditch the Young Offenders Act and get something with some teeth. 'course I've been saying this since I was 15, but those bleeding heart idiots WHO LET TERRORISTS IN BECAUSE THEY WHINE THAT THEY'RE REFUGEES, aren't ever going to do anything.
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
Seems fair, maybe even excessive. He didn't break into the systems, he didn't steal confidential data, he didn't risk life and physical property, he just denied some traffic to websites.
Imagine someone dropping a tree or something across a major highway, and stopping traffic.. would we add up the lost business from these people not reaching their destinations, and then punish the perpetrator based on that?
The punishment should fit the crime. It's easy for a small action to have great consequence on the internet, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should inflate punishments proportionately.
OK here are the facts as I see them:
Kid played script kiddie on Ebay using avalible tools.
Kig gets caught and EVERYBODY in the IT community knows his name.
Sentenced to 8 months in Kiddie jail (These are not nice places adult men can at least have some composure in jail juvinials are wild animals in comparison) And 1 year probation.
This is a bit considering he didn't hurt anybody. As to people saying no computer access thats BS my PS/2 has more computing power than my first PC and I could run Linux on it. Computers are not an option anymore for most people they are a necesity just like cars. For those that thing drunk drivers should loose there licence when they never injured anybody but themselves I'd say why dont you make sure they cant drink a special liscences that says no bar entrance everyplaces cards anyway and they should.
From the sounds of it the kid needs an engaging intern job somewhere not mcdonalds.
Exactly what losses can a company claim when they are victim of a DOS attack? Damaged hardware? No. Theft of goods? No. The only "loss" one of these companies had is potential income for that short period of time. And even that is completely subjective. Realistically, if you were going to buy a book from Amazon and you couldn't get to their web site, chances are you'd just try again in a few hours. The same goes for all the other web sites - especially the portals. Would you change your home page if the site was down for a couple hours?
Also, consider that this was a 16 year old boy. For Christ's sake, do you remember how stupid you were when you were 16? How much time do you think a kid should serve for a foolish mistake that didn't really harm anyone?
The 1 year probation, script kiddying is like crack.
"that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy."
Perhaps, the American Bar Association would be
interested in your IANAL advice.
I'll ass-rape cmdrtaco for 8 months and when I'm thru you can ask him how easy it was
I really think we are seeing a fitting punishment for computer crimes finally. This was not overreaction, he did cause a lot of financial damage to the web sites he DDOS'd. This was not underreaction either, he didn't go to the server rooms of these places and plant bombs. Now if we can get persons who break into computers who deliberately do NO damage, just explore, or even deface the web page without rm'ing the index.html, to get fair sentences, things will be on the right track. rm -rf /bin/laden
What he did was lame - to run a DDoS on a server... Even among hackers... that is lame... Defacing websites, like the PentaGuard, for a purpose, to give out a message, that's more acceptable, that's how you prove you are smart... Or if you down't want attention, once you get in, send an e-mail to the admin, saying that you found a hole in the security... That's how you could get hired... If you get in and do malicious stuff... they know you are a criminal... and THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS... CRIMINALS ARE CRIMINALS... Teenagers (like me) should find other ways to get attention, not carry out DDoS... for all you hackers-wanna-be out there... HACK LEGALLY at hackerslab.org
Canada's justice system is quite lenient on young offendere. Believe it or not he probably would have gotten the same sentence for almost beating a person to death.
When I was 17, I committed a pretty serious crime. Noone got hurt, but people could have been.
I was sentenced to 2 to 4 years in State prison (I was sentenced as an adult). Luckily for me, the experience was mostly boredom, with very little terror.
I agree with a previous poster that this kid could have a stunted development in his learning, but this all comes down to one thing:
Did he realize that what he did was wrong, for moral and ethical reasons within himself?
I have learned that doing something "bad" and getting punished for it is a powerful motivator to improve yourself, IF you want to change. As for learning in jail, it depends on his attitude and how supportive his family is.
My mother probably sent me over 3000 sheets of info. from the net, and over 100 books during the 2 years 7 months I spent in jail. I learned more in jail than I did in High School! I taught myself x86 assembly, the more advanced features of C++ from Stroustrup's book, and I even wrote the framework of an extensible raytracer (which I am still working on) by correspondance!
The bad thing is that you can't practice any of it. The moral of my story is: this kid's development depends mostly on himself and his family. He can become incredibly motivated by this, or he can turn into a society-menacing prick.
Another example is linked to from the atricle, about a kid starting a computer business from jail.
herding cats is another story . . .
:)
hawk
I've seen enough people who are unable to read this type of 'l337 sp34k' before so I'll translate:
Hello Lamers,
I am a 15 year old hacker/cracker, and I think that the sentence really sucks. I am more smarter than all you old fart punk sys admins combined. You fear my skills, I will ping nuke you and frag your ass in Counterstrike. I am elite. All your base are belong to us.
---===[[[{{ Neato Elite-O }}}]]]===--- [xRc]
Fear Maphiaboy!!!!!!
/s
/save
/exit
/qut
/quit
How do I save? This isn't pine! Grr!! grepping tarball.
Before judging on a sentence on a juvenile in the province of Quebec, you need a crash course on the approach that is prevalent here with kids, and works very well.
- Kids are NOT sent to jail. Whatever they commited. Why? Because jail is not where you learn about life as an adult.
- Juvenile centers are not vacation centers. My mother has been working in one for over 25 years, and the kids are severly watched, and most definitely not free to do what they want. They are locked in their rooms at night, and whenever they cause any kind of trouble. As long as they behave, they get to interact with other kids there, and they are forced to go to school.
Most of Canada wants tougher laws towards the kids, but Quebec's system has the lowest rate of kids being sentenced that commit other crimes when they grow up. By any means, 8 months is not a light sentence, and the kid will have that time to think about what he did, and perhaps find something else he is good at, instead of thinking how he will make society pay for his incarceration when he gets out of jail."I remember Y1K, every abacus had to get another bead"
Originally he was sentenced to correct Taco's grammar and spelling for a year, but it was deemed cruel & unusual punishment...
What do you mean... That was WAR... 1. JAPAN declared war to the US at Pearl Harbor 2. JAPAN attacked the US without any warning 9.11 was an act of war, so we are going to treat it like that... PS You are a COWARD...
Slap on the wrist? Exactly how do you call this a 'slap on the wrist'?
Mafiaboy is a seventeen year old - a teenager, probably misplaced socially - who decided to see what he could do with his computer. What you deride as 'script kiddieism' is nothing more than curiosity travelling its logical path. The only reasons he didn't bury his nose in *nix programming like you probably did is because one, he's young, and two, it's boring.
This isn't to say he's any sort of innocent. Obviously he has some anger issues or something to work out, and these should be dealt with. Eight months in juvey is going to be a dragging hell for him as it is, and probably won't resolve any of his social aberrancy. It's not just harsh, it's ineffective.
What would you advise as an alternative to this 'slap on the wrist'? Throw him in prison and let him rot? I have to say, then, that you are one hard motherfucker. His crimes were economic, nonviolent, and those of youth: more annoyances than anything, and ones that show us that . It would immoral to steal his life to pay for what it can't.
Ideally, he should simply be seperated from technology and forced to work excessively in the community. Make him go out and meet people. Make him help people. This isn't an evil, violent person. Locking him in with his fellow misanthropes is going to help no one.
. . . . . . . [awg] http://acidwriting.org
"I say the message should be to the scriptkiddies who obviously don't know how to cover their tracks, to at least learn to do so before they download malicious software."
So you don't have a problem with the crime, just with the training of the criminals?
When I heard 8 months is all this kid was getting, the guy in the next desk had to ask what I was laughing about. I am surprised the kid did not get up in court and say something like
I can do that standing on my head
Now first off, he is not that good a cracker, he got caught. The news is making a big deal about this event at the time it occurred, but if he were good, they would be still hunting him down today.
Secondly, like the post in slashdot says, he got slapped. Personally I think if you are dumb enough to get caught, then you deserver more the a little slap. But when I heard that they expected that 8 months would be a message to all the script kiddies, I was laughing even harder. So here in an interesting thought then, who is the bigger joke here, the kid for getting caught, or the people thinking this will be a message to all script kiddies.
my 2 cents plus 2 more
As much as a surprise as this might be, there is no unifying Slashdot ideology. Being as how we're all capable of free thought, some people believe things that others don't.
I can't believe that I've had to state something so blindingly obvious.
-Waldo
certainly it's at a YDC and not at a federal, pound-you-in-the-ass penitentiary, but still, eight months.
that's a full year of school you'd have to miss, and take again with kids 2 years younger than you. and a year after _that_ you still wouldn't be able to leave the state or be out after curfew.
imagine you're back in high school, and remember the pain of persecution and social awkwardness of being a geek. add to that the weekly visits to your parole officer, and think that's not at least a little trying for a kid who, essentially, downloaded some software and ran it.
personally, i think it's light in comparison to the damage and loss of commerce in dollar amounts floating around from the "Attack" - and i hope his parole terms include not being able to use the Internet unsupervised - but considering the age of the of the offender with no priors (i presume) this isn't "ridiculously easy" or a wristslap. a wristslap would be a fine (which his parents have to pay) and maybe parole.
being confined to a cell, your movements and actions constantly under scrutiny for eight months, essentially without any liberties, is an appropriate sentence for someone who intentionally committed a severe act of vandalism. the travesty would be giving the same sentence, or less, to people who maim or kill while drunk behind the wheel of a car, which happens every day in the courts.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
anything else you need to point out in the "bleeding obvious category" ?
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Thanks, dude, for revealing your conservative tendencies. You really screwed up. Time to start a new message board, one with a little compassion on it.
The kid is 17. That's one year (probably not even that) short of an adult, and _well_ into the range of "responsible decision making." Hell, you can drive at 16. If they're gonna give people THAT kind of a responsibility at 16, they sure as hell can endure some harsher punishments at 17.
I agree with the statement that this is a rather poor message to send the script kiddies. Not saying 8 months is a cakewalk, but DoS'ing a bunch of businesses is NOT comparable to the "simple vandalism" examples people here have been comparing it to. DoS attacks cost businesses ALOT of money. It's not a matter of scrubbing some paint from a wall. Its a huge loss in business.
I say the kid deserves the sentence and more.
Magius_AR
toss them together and have them all speak out of turn.
that's slashdot's ideology.
Indeed.
This "kid" wasn't a "hacker" he was a *script kiddie*, the equvilant of a braggart who thinks he knows something but doesn't.
A true hacker doesn't use someone else's tools, they write their own.
Hmm in canada, you do cyber crime and you get punished... This is great! for some reason here in the US you get tortured, sent to prison, smeared, and demolished without even getting to trial...
I think Canada is treating it's citizens fairly.. while here in the US we just use our Gestapo tactics.
President Bush said that the WTC attack was an attack on freedom.. and I agree, but it is less of an attack on freedom than the United States Government places every day.... the DCMA destroys freedom faster and with more completeness than any bomb or attack could ever accomplish.
But american right now are distracted from the real issues of protecting freedom.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
What's with make examples out of people anyhow? Is there any reason for such an inconsistent thing other than vagrant emotions? This is very unfair to him, and it does nothing to contribute to justice. There should be a sentence for being an 31337 5kr1p7 k1dd13z, and it should be the same for everything. I don't know jack about Canadian law, but I do know about fairness, and this is not fair.
Even then, is his sentence proportional to the severity of his crime? Not at all. All he did was generate traffic to a bunch of sites. How is that a crime? If their servers can't handle it, it's their fault, not his. Serving time is for people that need to be out of society for a while -- murderers, rapists, theives, etc. -- but not for generating traffic. These companies' sites are public: if they can't handle getting DoSed, they need better software to handle the traffic.
Am I saying that DoS attacks are OK? Not exactly. At most what should have happened to him was fines for the attack. The action did have malicious intent and malicious effect, but nothing that deserves living with some of the most screwed up kids you can imagine for two thirds of a year. This is redicilous: he temporarly disabled capital for a day or so -- LIFE GOES ON.
Not for him, though. I suppose I should know better than to get in the way of people's emotions when mammon is in danger.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
Violating the rights of others? Where on Earth do you get that nonsense? How were your rights violated? --By temporarily taking down a public address system he 'violated' the 'right' of business to make money for an afternoon? Your right to use Yahoo's crap search engine? Get real.
The kid was fifteen. Nobody got hurt, he didn't destroy anything, and he certainly didn't violate anybody's civil rights.
All he did was make a bunch of big companies look like the idiots that they are and make people feel insecure in the use of a technology nobody should feel secure about in the first place. THAT is why everybody was so upset. He said the emperor had no clothes.
And frankly, I think he's very, very lucky the law didn't do something truly awful. Are you happy about the 'hackers' who have been dissapeared to jail for years without trial, or were otherwise penalized beyond reason for doing virtually nothing wrong? Would it make you happy to see that happen to this kid?
I barely understand people these days.
-Fantastic Lad
Once again the word 'hacker' is used instead of 'cracker'...
Two links to "The Jargon File" for those still ignoring the difference :
Hacker
Cracker
When a hacker goes to jail for five years, everyone moans over the fact that the hacker is given hard time equivalent to a murderer, even though the crime is obviously far lesser. Then, when something like this happens, everyone calls it a slap on the wrist... ??
If you spray paint your local Wal Mart, they can still do business, MafiaBoy cost the websites he attacked money, not just for repairing the "grafitti" also for the lost customers while their sites were down.
My other sig is extremely clever...
Oh, yes! Lets beat young, impressionable trouble makers!
...
By reinforcing their hatred of society we will all reap wonderful benefits in the future.
After all, people who feel they have a grudge against society would never come back to haunt us would they?
Yeesh
...the real idiot is the guy who spells
"his" as "he's". Moron.
nt
So wait. When Mitnick hacks into a whole host of companies and networks and finally gets caught, you're up in arms because he got a harsh sentence, and now you whine because this guy got a light sentence for some DoS attacks.
What's the deal here?
He cannot enter the U.S. without fear of being arrested until the statute of limitations for his crime expires.
My other sig is extremely clever...
Fuck you. I don't support any of that shit. Why don't you just get off your horse there, chico. I'm an Irish American, but most of all, I'm an AMERICAN. I just don't believe that ALL Arabs, etc., are terrorist like your narrow-minded ass. Piss off. My friend lost his cousin in that attack in NYC, so I feel as much pain as any other American...
Get your marbles back in the bag or get the hell out of my sight...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
Robert T. Morris, creator of the internet worm, which took down a lot more of the internet (which, granted, was a lot smaller then), and who was an adult, was sentenced to three years probation, 40 hours of community service, and a $10K fine.
8 months for a juvenile seems an adequate sentence to me.
on the other hand, hasn't he been in detention for about 1.5 years?
- passion
this was his first time being caught. lets see if he becomes a repeat offender before we destroy his life..
if the eight months in the youth center makes him realize that its not cool DDoS ppl, then it was a perfect sentence..
I mean, really. even if you could make him realize that it wasnt cool and get him to stop by just talking to him, that would be fine..
the idea here is not to punish, but to correct behavior. I support the sentence.. Its nice to see a court where the punishment actually fits the crime..
now what type of slap should the DDoSed companies get for pulling bogus numbers out of the air to trump up the crime.. Furthermore, for being so vulnerable to a kid with a computer..
--e0
What you have to understand is this: you cannot compare this sentencing to the kind of sentencing he could have received had he been tried in the US or even in Ontario. Mafiaboy was not judged on US soil, by the US judicial system and under US laws.
If you compare sentencing in the US with sentencing in other countries of the industrialized occident, the US in no way comes out as an average nation. Comparatively speaking, the US judicial system is extremely harsh. Prison sentences are much more common and much, much longer. Another example of this harshness is the death penalty, which is much more widely used in (parts of) the US than in the rest of the industrialized occident.
Mafiaboy was judged and sentenced in Quebec, Canada. The Quebec judicial system operates on Canadian federal laws, but with largely distinct underlying values and interpretations. Whereas what is usually called "English Canada" generally wants to move towards a harsher, US-style judicial system, Quebec gererally wants to go towards prevention, leniency, and re-integration. This is especially true for young offenders. Young offenders in Quebec are not sentenced to five-year prison terms, even for violent crimes. Their anonymity is secured and they are sent to youth centers.
Interestingly, it seems that the efficiency argument is on the side of lenient Quebec in this case. Quebec has a very good track record at maintaining low crime and violence rates amoungst youngsters. Prevention and re-integration obviously fails in many cases (as we all know), but apparently works "often enough" or "well enough" to give Quebec very good results.
(My personal opinion? All other things being equal, I prefer shorter sentences. I will favor any solution which just works, but luckily, it seems that the one naturally prefer does precisely work. Yet if you must know, I am definitely for a "dangerous offender" clause which keeps total, dangerous lunatics off the streets for good.)
So whoever was expecting a 15-year prison sentence (or anything vaguely similar) is not very well-informed. That is of course understandable: Quebec and Canada are not very well known outside or... Quebec and Canada. Some would even say respectively. But the amount of surprise apparent here just goes to show how much many US citizens believe "their way" to be "the standard way."
And please remember: this is a DDOS attack; not a mass rape, not a murder, not a bloody beating. And if you stop thinking about magical, crime-banishing 25-year prison sentences for just a second, you might realize that 8 months in a youth detention actually is no small deal for a 17-year-old. I rather enjoyed beeing free during my teenage years.
Required reading and examinations on all of
the (you guessed correctly!) uber-cyber-geek
wannabe Jon Katz's posts to Slashdot.
Such punishment would keep anyone out of jail,
including Jon Katz.
Have a marijuana-induced weekend.
> Fear Maphiaboy!!!!!!
Free Maphiaboy!!!!!!
now we get to sit through 8 months of the 2600 guys screaming "Free Mafiaboy"
I say "fuck the little shit!" He knew what he was doing was wrong, he should accept the consiquences.
Personally, if I know who his cell mates were, I'd send them a bottle of Tabasco sause to use a lubricant...
Their operating costs are about the same if they are up or down, since they are still paying for buildings, utilities, bandwidth, salaries, etc. It's funny to joke about, but they didn't actually save any money while they were down, and those numbers should not be credited to Mafiaboy.
That's not enough of a translation yet. Here is the final version:
Greetings to those for whom I hold some degree of low regard.
I am a young computing/networking enthusiast who is disappointed with the punishment assigned to a fellow enthusiast. I have come into knowledge that is not universal; and because I have few other avenues through which I can gather respect, I intend to use this knowledge to randomly punish others. To accomplish this, I intend to display my knowledge through both gaming and non-gaming-oriented activities. I am also assigning myself a title to indicate my status. My long-term goals include assuming ownership of all facilities where personnel and equipment are centrally gathered.
I shall now attempt to determine the correct usage of the program with which I am composing this message.
It seems that law only protects big corporations. You can read this article about a series of DoS attacks GRC.COM suffered. The FBI told the sysadmin that they can not help him because he need to probe a damage at least of $200,000
MOD THE CHILD UP!
While I will refrain from commenting on this individual in this case, it must be said that we in a free society need to always be on our guard as to what the laws are, why they are, and how they are being carried out.
Why can a man in Virginia be throw in jail for going down on his wife in the privacy of their bedroom?
Why does crack cocaine have harder sentences than powder?
Why do blacks make up 15% of the US drug using population but 36% of the drug arrests?
Why can consenting adults be jailed for what they do behind closed doors? [ prostitution, assisted suicide, drug use, sodomy ]
Why, when people break the law, do we enroll them institutions that teach them how to harder criminals and then let them back into society?
Why do we say we are rehabilitating criminals when we only punish them?
The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance.
Sheep like you are the reason things are the way they are.
Pimple faced teen age script kiddy stands up. Gulps
Judge: Defendant, you have already been found guilty of numerous crimes. You will now hear your sentence.
You DOSed ebay and other cool and great web sites. By doing this you broke a gazillion of laws, and caused damage worth piles of dolares. For this you will pay dearly: 8 months is the slammer, and another year of probation
Pimple faced teenage, stuttering: Your honour, tha...
Judge (loud and harsh): I have not finished!
Judge (now seemingly normal again):
You called yourself a hacker: 2 Months.
You used hacking software: another 3 Months.
You could not explain to us what exactly this hacking software did: add 3 more.
You did not have the source code of this hacking software: 2 more
And when we gave you the source code for it, you were unable to compile it.: count another 2
Now the judge's voice, increasingly shaky, is overwhelmed with disgust:
You weren't even able to program and run a "hello world" program in C when we asked you to. another month
not even after agent Hunzinger explained the printf syntax to you: 2 more
The judge gets his voice under control again. The next point is read with the usual monotony:
You ratted on your friends: 1 more
your friends had lots of cool "warez" they said they got from you: another 6, one of these together with a lawyer from the SPA.
But none of your "hacker" friends could use a compiler, either: 3 more
Only one of them even had something remotely resembling a compiler. 2 months.
that was a hacked version of visual basic; stored in an subdirectory with the name "warez for dad". 1 month.
You used some useless kind of encryption in your email and while chatting: 2 months
the agent reading these had to write an sed script to decrypt them, replaing all the 1 with i, the 3s with e, most z with s, and so on. He was so bored the state had to give him compensation for extraordinary job harshness. Another month.
you bragged about your crimes: 2 months
you bragged about your crimes where everybody could read you: 2 more months
you bragged about your crimes in a way we could trace you back...: 3 months
...easily!: 1 more month
the judge is slowly increasing volume, and vigor
you had evidence of your crimes on your computer: another 2
unencrypted...: 1 more
... and in a subdirectory called "hacking logs" ! makes 3 more
you are sorry little cretin...: 1 more
your presence pesters the air and my stomach: 1 month
you have the intellectual capaciity of a young spinach plant: 1 month.
And....
Now the judge yells outright
... you did not even add up the fucking number of fucking months I'm sending you to the fucking slammer ! Did you ?
Shocked silence in the courtroom. The defendant tries to say something, but gives up. Finally, he slowly shakes his head, looking firmly at the floor
Judge, now at normal speach: Well. That additional 4 months now gets us up to a nice round 5 years. Now someone move that vegetable to the spinach plant!
A sharp look to the small weaseling guy in a suit next to pimpleface: Lawyers, don't even think of an appeal. We neither discussed his beeing caught while using Microsoft Windows, nor his knowing at least 5 MCSEs.
Case closed!
don't you wish? I know I do!!!
Why is it that the Americans can understand that French law is not the same as American law, but not that Canadian law is different?
Anyway, here are highlights of the differences:
1) Criminal law is federal.
2) Courts all represent "Her Majesty The Queen"
3) If the sentance is 2 years they go to a federal pen.
5) Nobody gets a criminal record for commiting a provincial crime.
6) We have "Crown Prosecutors" not "District Attourneys"
7) We call the judge "My Lord" for a man, and "My Lady" for a woman, and collectively "His/Her Lordship".
8) Minimum and maximum sentences are all federal and different from the American's.
9) We don't have a 5th ammendment, but an equivalent. Here we can make you testify, but what you say can't be used against you in a following trial unless it's for purgury.
10) I can't think of any more to summarise, but there are many more.
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
Why? For better internet security. If people have to actually protect their computers, rather than trusting some supposedly omnipotent government to toss crackers in the oubliette, they would pay a lot more attention to security. They would not buy products with a lot of security leaks, and patch them more often. IIS would become reasonably secure.
If you make all wireless data fair game for people to intercept, people would start using encryption.
Legalize cracking: it's for security!(tm)
He probably isn't allowed to touch a computer for the entire 8 months, and probably not for his entire probation. I don't know about the rest of you geeks, but 20 months without being able to touch a computer is one hell of a punishment.
Time travel is possible. We are quickly heading for 1984.
I don't understand this. You whine and whine about them being too harsh on Mitnick and then whine that they aren't harsh enough on Mafiaboy. Jeseu H. Christ, what do you want?
America is so caught up in this "Punish them so they realize how dumb it was" phase. What they don't really realize is what putting someone away for 10 years (especially at the age mafiaboy is) can do to a person. Release a 25 year old who has been in jail for the past ten years, and they have no shot at a normal life. While some people say "Good, what he deserves," I honestly doubt if he has any brains he'll try something like this again.
Sure, the kid got a rise out of slowing the internet for a few days, but we all did stupid stuff when we were 15. Hell, some of my friends went out and threw rocks at cars off an overpass on the freeway. Sure, we realize how utterly dangerous this was now, but it seemed like something fun and rebellious in 8th grade. It's hardly a reason to take the rest of someone's life away. This kid is going to have a hard enough time getting a decent job or even into college with this on his record.
The point of prison is to pusnish, but I doubt any of you know how hard even eight months in a controlled environment like juvenile detention is. This is pretty harsh, I have a friend who were caught for posession of a rather large quantity of marijuana and only got 3 months probation because he was 16 and federal drug laws didn't apply (had he been 2 years older, the min. sentence is 25 years, which is absurd for having some ganja) The moral of this post? We as a country are so hell-bent on the punishment of criminals (I'm mainly talking about the non-violent ones) that we fail to see the punishment does more harm to society than the crime itself. I doubt many of you can fathom what jail is like. Even a year in jail is not something you forget easily.
I don't understand why this guy, being able to pull off these attacks, didn't do all of this shit from a cybercafe in the middle of NYC where nobody can ever trace you, or like a terminal at the public library.
But 8 months in juvy is gonna be rough. He ought to be in high school learning shit -- this kid's life is pretty much screwed now because if he ever had a chance to get into a good college, it's gone now. Plus, motivation is gonna be a problem...
-S
> Maphiaboy!
Mafiaboy!
... stupid script kiddies, what did he really do to get fucked up this much. 18 monthes remeber that arctical about juvie computers, oregon trail would suck for 18monthes. I bet they don't even use Linux or even anything POSIX compliant. Shit that sucks for him, see what happens when you make US compinies lose a little cash (relitave to what they make)
again WTF
seems that when the cops tapped his phone line they got something they didn't expect: his dad was taking out a contract on someone.
more here
Hello??? He ruined his OWN future when he launched an attack on those sites.... IMO, he should be banned from computers for life, and at least 5 years jail time!
I keep a close eye on what bills are being passed and contact my representatives when they must or must not be supported. I write letters to the editors of news papers when they write rather informed or uninformed articles. I donate time and money to organizations that push for change. I spark debate on public web boards. I challenge everyone I know with fact-backed debate and try to change minds one at a time.
I'm sorry I spoke to harshly to you earlier. You caught me in an unusually bad mood. But, yes, that totally apathetic attitude does bother me when I think of the two million people rotting in jail for stupid laws that exist because too many people are apathetic.
I don't want to put my chip on your shoulder, that's a lot to carry. But if you know that these things are wrong what justice does it do you to espouse the opposing rhetoric? All I really want is for you to at least understand the issues you are speaking out on. We are so close to a truly great society and there is just a gap of information to bridge.
Why can't we be more creative when punishing kids... I mean, he may make friends in the detention center.
Lets hear some suggestions for punishments other than imprisionment...
For example:
Be forced to clean out every grease tray from every McDonalds in the city of Montreal. (Perhaps drink whats left? maybe thats TOO harsh)
or
Computer teacher for the elderly... nonstop. Trust me, when your trying to teach a 70 year old "how to use a mouse" you feel like shooting yourself.
even better
Forbid him to use any computer thats faster than a pentium 90.
Finally. Perhaps the most durastic and painful:
Make him use Windows.
Find Escorts, Strippers, Massage Parlours, Swingers
There's nothing innocent about this, and the punishment was well earned.
Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
Remember, this is a country where beating up another guy gets you 5 minutes in the box.
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
...
Well, he did shut down several businesses for some time. These were not sole proprierships. These were corporations. What he did was not a video game but at best a malicious thoughtless act , not considering the lively hood of employees, stock holders, customers, suppliers, ..etc, that would be inconvenienced or harmed by his act. At worst, he purposely harmed the financial well being, not only of company employees, but the financial well being of investors. In addition many web masters do make profit from their referral program. And what of the authors who may have missed sales, and therefor royalties?
It's hard not to hate big corporations and rare to find someone who takes their side, but this was not a victimless crime. It was a crime that affected those in another country it was on such a broad scale. Worst, it was an act of a sociopath who is unable to understand how to behave in society in a lawful manner and unable to consider the effects of his actions on others.
Do you really think that 8 months is an easy sentence? Especially at that age? Just because US courts are so fond of handing out sentences that will destroy a life, don't think that anything less than 5 years is barely a sentence. Not so good for sending warnings to others, perhaps, but if the stated goal of punishment is correction (and at that age it's not unreasonable) then the sentence will hurt a hell of a lot without completely destroying his chance of having a normal life.
"The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
...has obviously never spent a single day in custody.
/. nerds think they know EVERYTHING.
Damn
Stick to Linux.