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"Lindows" Coming Soon?
nstbbuff sent in a link to a story running at ZD about Lindows,
a recently funded startup founded by MP3.com's old CEO that plans to sell a WINE oriented Linux dist for $99. As usual I'm skeptical about these sorts of things, but provided code is released back, I'm down with it. Meanwhile Transgaming is doing their thing, but with game-specific stuff. Their flagship release is The Sims, but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows. I'm still skeptical -- I mean, how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
Well that could help with man apps.
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
The Sims, but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows.
Yah yah, you meant Lindows.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I am not sure, but it seems to me MP3.com is...going belly up.
-- What it is, jive-turkey!
There's a Wall Street Journal article about it too. I'd have to say, I'm a bit suspicious about this too. The http://www.lindows.com/ website seems pretty bare.
but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows
Congrats, you have mastered the obvious.
AC's cheerfully ignored
goodness gracious! free software was not meant to be sold!
theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows
just about sums it all up.
-Serp
Seems steep to me, .If you need to yous Windows apps that badly why not just boot up windows? and save yourself 99 bucks?
Snoozer.
Keep being skeptical and watch linux remain in a niche. Open up, providing a good number of people a good number of things they want on a computer, and watch Linux bloom.
From the article: Lindows hopes a broader software base will help boost the Linux operating system, a 10-year-old clone of Unix.
I'm torn about how to read this. Are they trying to say that Linux is outdated? Or are they trying to say that it is well established? Or am I overreading and they are just saying Linux is 10 years old?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Windows programs need to be installed on a Windows partition before it can be run under Linux? If that's the case, what's the point of having an entire distro just for running Windows apps when you can run them natively in Windows?
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
download your favorite distro for free and then download wine for free. It costs nothing to you except the $0.20 for a blank cd to burn it on.
"Seems steep to me, .If you need to yous Windows apps that badly why not just boot up windows? and save yourself 99 bucks?"
maybe you don't necessarily want to run the OS?
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
don't people understand?
free software was not meant to be sold!
This is what I've been waiting for. I think it will open up the Joy of Linux to a very large new audience. I've had the chance to setup PCs for various friends and neighbors over the years, and I always went with Windows for most of them. Not because I like Windows, but because I'm very busy and I am not into free training and support. It looks like this "Lindows" could be away to give those folks something they can deal with on their own.
be just another OS/2. The WinOS/2 subsystem was so good that it killed OS/2. What's the fun of running Windows apps in Linux? Higher stability? But Win2K/XP is already quite good for this purpose and it comes preinstalled anyway. I think that if you really plan to use Linux, stay away from Windows apps and stick with native ones. Besides, we have VMWare for it and it almost guarantees 100% compatibility.
¦ ©® ±
... Next to the salad fork?
How about vmware? It works now!
Their flagship release is The Sims, but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows.
You mean those DirectX games CAN run under Windows???
Damn. i'm shocked.
If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face. RATM
theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows
Theoretically speaking, of course
Stupid Cheap Guitars
I mean, how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
... as soon as they have enough subscribers, they'll release it all under the Wine license. Okay, I must note here that I don't know the specifics about that one, but it's more Free than the currently used Alladin license.
The transgaming patches are NOT closed source, they are just not Free Software. You can download them (see the winex project on sourceforge) or get them from CVS, you just can't use them for anything commercial. And
--
If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
is that there are so many flavors of the same shit, people just disregard it. If Netcraft could determine every single type of Linux out there, I bet you *BSD would be in one of the top ranked nix environments...
*Headline News* censorship shuts down the Internet! More at 6PM!
Any word on what they're actually planning on selling it for? At least once purchased you can put it on multiple computers, but still... $99 is steep for a Linux. I'm also wondering if the $99 preview release is some sort of gimick to gain development funding (a Send Resume button at the top of Lindows.com is not confidence inspiring.
If I can't see it in Lynx I'm not interested.
For $99 I can get a real working copy of Windows. My advice to the company- don't go the store market route.
So long as it doesn't mutate into "Limpdows"
or something else equally lame, or some other half cooked development effort.
Let's not follow the MS pattern too closely here (as in 'never buy version 1.0 of anything')
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
More brilliance from the guy who brought us MP3.com, your favorite source for spam and poor music. Just who want to make a new name for Linux....
Got Rhinos?
Or you could get a Sun Blade with the PCi Card.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach him to eat and he will fish forever.
Confused confused confused!
You want Linux, cause its stable and wonderful. But we want to run DirectX. So lets emulate windows in linux. Now lets emulate DirectX in the emulated windows in linux.
Simplify the equation, and you have "run windows with native DirectX".
Wouldn't the "best" solution be to update the SDL to run DirectX natively in X on linux?
This story makes it appear that the average Linux zealot is willing to take the time to emulate windows and DirectX for gaming, but not willing to just emulate directX natively....
OK, I just read what I wrote and confused myself even worse...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows.
;)
Theoretically, all of them should. Maybe they'll have better luck running under Wine.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
But $99 for Lindows? Why not just pay that much for Windows? You probably already have a license that can be used to purchase an upgrade for a known-working (Hah! Funny!) distribution of Windows. So there's not much of an impulse to go with this distribution that *may* work with Windows apps.
And furthermore, bulk-licensing purchases will drop the price of Windows below $99, so there's not much vendor incentive to go with Lindows.
I'm not questioning the quality of the product or the business model at all...I'd be ecstatic if they joined the single-digit ranks of profitable Linux companies. But at the pricing, I don't think it'll attract much beyond niche purchasers.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
The purpose of a "Lindows" system is to NOT have Windows, but have the ability to run Windows apps.
Your solution means:
1) Buying a Windows license (more than $100)
2) Buying VMWare ((more than $100)
Instead of:
1) Buying Lindows ($100)
-Vic
If you need Windows, you can get the old Win98, rather than buying Win2K or WinXP. I think Win98 also worth about $99 or maybe even cheaper. I dunno why they priced Lindows on par with the original (but old) thing. I think most of the apps today runs pretty well in Win98. The apps that need stability like webservers (Apache) are best run in Linux, IMHO.
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't part of the thing from getting away from windows is paying the high price? You can probably upgrade to some version of windows for about $99 from a previous version. My college was giving away about 100 copies of win 95 about 1.5 years ago b/c they never used it.
I understand that there are some costs w/ making the product...but if it's based off of WINE, then isn't that part of the GPL. And since their work would be derived from the WINE project, doesn't the GPL cover this? If this is the case shouldn't it "technically" be released under the GPL as well?
I'm not exactly sure on this but wouldn't that just mean ppl can dl it? Unless of course they decide to hide the code for a long time till legal action is brought to them...then they'll say they're working on the fix...like we've seen before w/ the bttv drivers.
I'm all for doing this...but at what cost does this not warrant actually doing this anymore? If you REALLY want to run windows in your linux/unix platform, then get VMware for about the same price, but what you get is a stable product which works very well and has a proven track record. I'm not trying to discount the work that these ppl are doing/going to do, but it would help if they look at these factors and not sit in the basement and think...Hey! This is a good idea, lets market it and sell it!
A little bit of marketing and business classess would surely teach you better.
"Oh? Your soundcard? I've never really gotten that to work under Linux..."
Is this something that only I have heard mulitple times?
Of course, gaming performance is what many Linux companies see as their ticket to profit and fame. Thus Mandrake's upcoming 'gaming' distro and the distros mentioned in the article.
What would cause artists and multimedia professionals to migrate en masse from MacOS and Windows 2000 would be a good, comprehensive, artist-targeted multimedia suite for Linux. This means support for video and sound capture devices, graphic, sound, and video editing along the lines of Adobe, Ulead, or similar products. Protools for Linux, anyone? It also means not having to fight to configure a system for multimedia uses rather than coding or networking.
Gaming features might attract kiddies and get them to shell out $x for your distro, assuming that they just don't download the code from your website. Art and multimedia features will gain you loyalty for life from art and design professionals who're all itching like crazy to get away from Windows and MacOS.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Vmware enables you to use windows inside linux and then run your windows apps inside windows. So you still need an installed and working windows. It is just a way to avoid dual booting. The drawbacks are that you still need windows and that it requires a lot of ram and processing power.
On the other hand, wine works without the windows OS and runs the software alone. That is a much more difficult task than the first solution because wine has to "understand" all kinds of software calls to the OS. That is why the bigger and more complex apps do not run with wine.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
They idea behind Wine is that you do not need any MS code at all - so no MS licence fee is needed.
With Wine the windows app appears to be a native Linux app - uses the same window manager, can cut and paste etc. works over the network to your remote X display and all the other native Linux/UNIX/X goodies.
Of course, Wine isn't finished yet (especially without any MS code);-).
"Winux."
Wine isn't a bad approach, but it is still an implementation of the Windows API that sits on top of X. Would/could a DirectX for Linux be implemented any differently ?
If not then we might see dissatisfaction to the point of R&D failure because real-time peformance may not be possible in such situations. The biggest issue being latency.
Here is a good, though somewhat dated, article on the topic of Linux Latency.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
I know I'm going to get modded as troll or flamebait, and I'm sure this has been asked before, but...
given the attitudes of the zealots that think Linux software is superior, and that open source is superior to everything closed, then why is this considered such a big deal, and even supported by the Linux community?
Everybody talks about how much Windows and MS software sucks, but then they turn around and do their best to emulate it. I'm not just talking about WINE either, this topic extends into the GUIs. They all take things from Windows.
Anonymous Cowards need not respond.
18 to 24 months, they say? They're wasting their time. By then, we'll have something better than MS office, and enough people using Linux to make it the new standard.
I'm glad their work is closed source, that way I know they're not wasting too many talented open source developers' time on this.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
- Home users buys Lindows.
- Home user installs loads of software on Lindows, including MS Office, games, etc.
- Half of this software will be buggy or slow.
- Home user now hates Linux in general, and tells all his friends what a rip-off it is.
The Windows software market is not what Linux should be after. It's not possible to "do" Windows better than Windows. Linux needs to work on making people like it for being Linux.As many as the market can support, and as many as it takes to get a version of WINE that runs every windows app flawlessly.
Personally, I think there's room in the market for at least two -- one optimized for 100% compatability business / productivity apps and one optimized for excellent games performance.
Hopefully, any company making a WINE port will have the decency to release any propriatary code they write if & when they go under.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
or do you just like nonsense?
From last week:
a) install Red Hat 7.1 on a laptop
b) download a standard WINE RPM and install it
c) edit a config file to set a few paths
d) pop in Starcraft CD and play
I am skeptical that this startup has anything useful to offer, but I wish them the best.
-John
Now I can use all my Cygwin stuff in Linux!
... so they can work on the same non-free fork.
Are those like dinner, salad, and dessert forks? If you were going to use utensils to drink wine, wouldn't wine spoons work better?
Best Slashdot Co
First of all this is JUST another Linux distro. The big difference is that it comes with Wine already installed and configured to work WITHOUT a windows partition. They can charge what they want for it, yes it's GPL'ed software. Maybe their installer won't be GPL'ed, maybe they will write or purchase some closed source drivers for unsupported hardware. They already said you can install it on more than one computer per copy, so they are living up to that part of the GPL. (Hey remember that Redhat charges more than $99 for the professional version of THEIR distro.)
Second, I disagree that Linux should not be after the Windows market. What Windows does is the same (albeit a subset) as what Linux does, essentially; just not as well. Linux has a long way to go to take over that market, but licensing plans like XP's are just the thing to make managers eager to find an alternative. That said, I doubt this is the alternative for your reason #3.
Of course those of us in the know realize that all the good games eventually get ported, but it is still a problem selling to 'joe average'.
I think the idea of a wine-based distro is pretty cool. A vmware based distro would be even better. I'm guessing this would not be possible at a retail price point of a 'normal' linux distro because vmware is so expensive.
Lets hope the freemware project delivers the goods as we expect it to.
When I tried to install a whole slew of applications under Wine about 6 months ago, it proved to be :
1 - A pain in the majority of cases : I assume the Lindows product will come with pre-chewed install scripts, so I don't worry about that
2 - Impossible in a lot of cases : I guess Lindows will have to come with "approved to run xxx" stickers, or maybe with a list of supported applications. Again, not really a problem if they market it well.
3 - Possible in many case, provided I used one or more native DLLs ripped from the real Windows from the C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM directory. These were either DLLs that Wine didn't emulate, or DLLs that Wine didn't emulate correctly. Without those native DLLs, many important apps wouldn't have worked at all.
So, without some Windows DLLs, the Lindows guys will have to cut their already reduced set of working apps : how are they going to get around this ? I can't think they'll manage to license the DLLs from M$. Will they do additional engineering work to complete/fix the DLL emulations in Wine ?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
The main problem with using VMWare is that it can't do hardware 3d. So gaming in VMWare sucks quite hard.
I use Linux as my desktop OS both at home and at work, and at both locations I have VMWare installed. Now at work, I use VMWare because sometimes I need to write code for IIS apps. Everything else (word processors, spreadsheets, email) I do natively from Linux.
At home, I still use Linux for all of my email, wordprocessing, and etc, but I rarely ever start up VMWare. Simply because the only reason I could ever want to run Windows at home is to play a game, and frankly VMWare just can't hack it when it comes to DirectDraw. It's very slow. Don't even bother considering Direct3D or OpenGL, as it is completely unusable.
So, until vmware gets a better 'host OS video driver' that will better support hardware accelerated video operations, I will continue to only use it only for novelties that I can't easily duplicate in Linux.
Wouldn't the more appropriate name be "winux"?
--Jim
a company has licensed the source for windows, can engineers who have seen the source work on wine ?
A better comparison would be Win4Lin. This appears to be essentially a distribution with Windows access integrated. That is essentially what Win4Lin is, they just aren't including the Linux. This results in problems whenever your distribution upgrades.
... well, the only reason that I can think of is for Windows games.
... if Lindows could handle both of them my wife would beg me to convert her!)
I think that this may have a reasonable chance of success. I wouldn't put it any higher, but reasonable.
If I wanted to use this at work, it would need to support the Novell logon procedures, and MSOffice 2000 (perhaps I would be able to substitute KOffice or StarOffice, but there is not substitute for the Novell logon).
If I wanted to use this at home
If I wanted my wife to use this at home it would need to support the HP all-in-one OfficeJet products. Scanner as well as printer. And an old program from PassPort Designs called "Encore!" (a music editing program). Deneba Canvas would be a real plus. So would Pokemon (this is a real non-standard program, though... installing it on Win95 kills the current HP all-in-one drivers
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
> but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows
Oh Taco.
When will you learn to actually use your brain?
I just got "Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!" trying to post the above - Maybe you should put a filter up for your front-page stories......
Linux is a good OS because of its stability, putting windows on linux is like introducing viruses onto system That is just evil.
kawai
I would hope it would sink in that Linux belongs on servers, and the best Un*x like desktop is Mac OS X, where one can use VirtualPC to run Windoze trash.
42
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
IIRC, The First version of VMWare was $99, until they "diversified" the product line and made running NT/2K $300! The 95/98 version is still $100 (I believe it's called VMWare Workstation). So how long before this becomes a $300 product?
v2sw7CUPhw5ln6pr5Pck4ma7u7LFw0m6g/l7Di5e6t5Ab6TH.
mmmmmm. . .wide open spaces that evil_spork loves to probe. Your wide open spaces. Do you both scamper around the ohio woods at night, reveling in childhood felching games?
That's what Elmer Fudd would call Linux.
Rather than try to make Windows apps run on Linux, why not take all that development effort and time and make a systemmatic porting toolkit from Windows to Linux? Not only that, why not do what Apple did with gcc and write one hella fine IDE and give it away? If an x86 Unix-like OS can run MS apps, there will be absolutely no reason for developers to write native applications.
Burn Hollywood Burn
I don't like the recent Windows licenses. That was what originally got me interested in Linux about 3 years ago. It's become more true in the intervening time.
I wasn't bothered too much by the original Win95 license. Starting with Win98 I became bothered. I have refused to install or recommend recent MS software. I consider that anyone who installs software with a license like what I've seen of the XP license is guilty of malfeasance. Even if there isn't an obvious alternative (and, for some applications, I admit that there may not be).
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Here is the MSNBC post.
-jbn
Anything but a spork.
Well thats one way to beat the MS licenses :D
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Win4Lin is like VMWare, but I think Lindows like Wine is an actual layer that makes the Windows application another task. This is prefer because I hate swapping from one window to another window to get at another window. Lindows if they succeed will have a much better user experience.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
I might simply be proving how clueless I am by asking this, but, suppose Lindows ends up being a success. Is MS allowed to sue them? If not, why not? And if yes, then why so?
... to run on linux, as long as they're not made anyways. Which they aren't.
Keeping linux absolutely windows-free, or closed-source-free, will apparently not produce the things people wants, right?
So a healthy mix, if possible, is fine with me.
Anything to get Linux usable for Joe Sixpack, and common on the desktop. Then, and only then, there is a market for specific programs and games for that platform.
If you need Windows apps then use Windows... If you need Linux apps then use Linux. I see that it's kind of pointless to have something like that in the first place. You can just download ISOs of any distro of your liking then download Wine, there you go Linux + WINE = Lindows. Lindows is something that I will not pay $99 dollars for but then again that's just me. Why you might ask? Well I can do a lot with $99 dollars!
1. I could buy Win4Lin and still have money left over.
2. Support the Transgaming and once you think of it that's a lot of votes. =)
3. I could buy a GeForce 2 MX and play games better in both Windows or Linux.
4. I can buy an MS Windows Upgrade!
5. I could buy VMware Personal Edition.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm a full time Linux user and I have no need for any Windows apps for the time being, but if I did I'll install Windows. Then again who knows I could an idea OS for power users that duel boot a lot. I'll have to see something I like about the OS before I pay $99 dollars.
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
>...how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
One that works.
Until you can _RELIABLY_ run MS and Adobe apps under Wine without MS DLL's, we don't have a story.
Every time I look at the Wine database I see marginal compatibility for the desktop apps that folks want.
I'm really hoping Wine works. I've been hoping that for about 5 years now.
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
Let's hope they're spending all the money on developer salaries and hardware. There are still too many companies out there to this day that should have been 5 smart guys in a garage making something kick-ass enough to sell itself if the idea is so damn good. And this idea is damn good.
*** Sigs are a stupid waste of bandwidth.
Its not Linux, OR Windows. Its some sorta hybrid OS which wont be either.
If we are trying to convert people to Linux, Creating a third option which is like Windows is not the way to go.
I see this Lindows OS competiting with and even beating Redhat and Mandrake, This wont be good because it will be competiting with and beating Linux.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I wonder if "Lindows" will run into any trademark issues with Microsoft?
-
(...)I mean, how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
Why don't they just thread instead of fork?Seriously, I know I have already said that forks are great and variety is essencial. But too many forks will lead us to nowhere! We need variety, but not that much.
When there are few projects about a topic forks are wonderful, very welcome. But when it's starting to get messy, maybe we need to think if it's better to fork, or to thread, or even to merge!
think about it
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
Lindows prolly will be running ON NTFS or Fat32, Its not Linux.
First its going to have binary compatibility with windows which means sure it may use the Linux Kernel but the internals will be Windows too.
This is no more Linux than Win Linux 2000 or PhatLinux is.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
>I mean, how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
18.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
I have had my Winux 2004 shirt for awhile now. Pete Abrams is a prophet.
hinderfreude ('hin-dur-"froi-d&), n. The feeling of joy derived from being in the way.
At some point, the effort of continually altering our windowing systems in order to play another game that was designed to run under Windows becomes greater than the effort required to simply install Windows and reboot the machine. Yes, I realize that WINE does not require a copy of Windows to run; that is what makes it such a headache to get working. I actually tried to run Lotus Notes with it one time. It worked. It was sad.
The open source definition [opensource.org] clearly states that discrimination against "fields of endevor" is forbidden. Discriminatio against people trying to make money is discrimination.
This license forbids Cheapbytes or its ilk from selling copies of Lindows. That's not open source.
Sig:Why copyright isn't a fundamental human right
While it makes logical sense for them to do so, isnt Wine GPL? Which means they have to give up the source code, which basically means their product will be free for us.
This company does have enough money to create their own Wine or created some kinda modified kernel.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Face it, I want to play games. If it means I get Linux and can play Windows games, I'm happy.
Is it pure? No.
Do I or most consumers care? No.
Will it sell like hotcakes, more than XP? Yes.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
but theoretically many DirectX games should run under Windows.
Yes in theory they *should* run, but most of the time when I run a game in windows I get a BSOD. --toq
I've been a long time reader of the WINE mailing list and although I'm pretty confident that at some point WINE code will be able to run most Windows applications. In it's current form I can see one blocking issue.
Installers. WINE can install some stuff straight from the CD but not alot. Install shield 6 is a big stumbling block (see: http://www.winehq.com/News/2001-29.html)
This wasn't such a big deal for the current WINE developers who could install applications by booting into Windows. There is an obvious issue if you're going to try to sell this as an alternative.
Not to mention that this sort of thing has been tried before (see http://www.winehq.com/community.shtml under the "related projects".)
Mind you it wasn't all that long ago that people were saying that Direct3D was beyond the reach of WINE and now we have TransGaming.
Anyway if this ends up putting more people and money into the WINE project then I say we're all the better for it.
Transgaming runs on LINUX
Dont support this peice of crap Lindows!
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
It may not be "fun" to run Windows apps under Linux, but few of us run Windows apps for fun anyway. We run them because they're a requirement of our jobs.
VMWare is expensive, requires a sophisticated user, and has a big footprint. Makes sense for developers (having a complete VM is handy even if you're not working cross-platform!) and for some server apps. Can't see it for a basic desktop environment.
I read the license. I like it. It gives me the following abilities which are the main things I want out of Software Libre:
- The ability to view the source code and make changes to it.
- The ability to distribute the modified source and binaries compiled from that source.
- The ability to create a fork independent from the original authors (mostly for if they decide to close the source entirely or if they go under).
The only thing you don't get is the ability to sell anything based off of their source -- they get exclusive rights to profit off the code base.
So no, it is not Software Libre, but it has most of the benefits that I care about. I think it is a reasonable compromise.
The enemies of Democracy are
WinOS2 did not kill OS/2. WinOS2, by letting people do things they need to do while simulataneously letting them keep OS/2, kept users in the market for OS/2 apps. At least it did for a while, until Win32 apps became common.
Apps running under emulation do not compete with native apps. The user doesn't run emulated apps unless they have no other choice. And if they really have no choice and there isn't an emulator that can run the app, then they switch platforms. And that's when the original platform really gets hurt.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
"Provided code is released back..."
Who said anything about new code? The only innovation here is the pretty box which tells people they can install it on more than one machine - a $2 cdr doesn't come with that...
Why not charge a buck or so a month and call it Lendows?
Ok, fine.. now they have Lindows.. i'm waiting for MS Winux
Call me crazy, but who is going to pay $99 for a buggy version of Windows (buggier then Microsoft's version that is)? You might as well just go out and purchase the real thing once you've shelled out that much cash. Maybe they're just targeting businesses right now. However, I'm sure that most reasonably large companies pay much less than retail prices for Windows with bulk licensing deals.
Why are people so obsessed with making Windows applications work in Linux? Especially since those same programs, should they happen to be made my Microsoft, will very quickly become magically incompatible with Wine every new version or so. Why don't companies focus on actually making good -alternatives- to Windows programs? Personally, I wouldn't at all mind seeing an open source version of Exchange Server and Outlook. And hey, if it ran in both Windows and Linux, you'd have conquered a -very- large market.
just one that works.
Well if there's one THAT WORKS I'll buy that and I don't think it matters how many other ones exist.
It'd be nice if the WINE folks concentrated on making the open source tree work as well as the closed ones.
This reminds me of an old project called freedows or something. What ever happened to that project?
Can you see Iron City here?
This license forbids Cheapbytes or its ilk from selling copies of Lindows. That's not open source.
But when the sourcecode is still freely available for everyone not trying to make money from it, it can hardly be considered closed source.
Dinivin
Didn't we just finish a thread not a half day ago wherein Windows XP was an evil thing that would destroy freedom and privacy in the world?
/. response?:
Now we have some folks throwing in seven figures of their own dough to try to come up with an alternative, and what's the
"They're not giving away all of their source code!" (Well, Duh.)
"$99?! I can buy WINDOWS for $99!!"
Then go ahead and BUY WINDOWS, and shut up about not liking it!
Idiots.
I'm sorry, But I've used Odin and Warp 4 SP7(?). And people who complain that Wine doesn't run Win32 apps have it MADE compared to what Odin does.
Now, it's probably been a year since I've run Odin, but I can't fathom Odin coming FARTHER in a year, than Wine has come in the past 2 years. It's been over a year since the Odin project started syncing with the Wine Tree, and I highly doubt its further ahead (unless they've stopped, but I'd say they have more to LOSE by not staying in sync with Wine).
As for eComStation; I would LOVE to run a newer version of OS/2. To be able to install OS/2 without patching the boot disk for 2GB drives (What was is IBM1s506-> DANIS506? -Hell my ATA66 works better with DANIS506 than in Win2k) would be excellent in itself. But the PRICE! $250 for an UPGRADE from Mensys? And I only get 1/4 (at BEST) Win32 support?
Now connectix is definately a viable alternative, but the other two you mention have just as far to go as Wine does.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
take some well-written GPLd code
make inconsequential tweaks to it
fire up the hype machine
burn cd, make pretty box
distribute and sell product
retire to villa in Antigua
;-)
Seriously, I just don't get it. How can anyone take GPLd Wine and sell it and declare their fork closed??
On an un-related note, please check out my new compiler, edcc, based on the hard work of thousands. Supports all features of GNU gcc and more, just don't tell RMS!
ACHTUNG! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen.
Of course I paid for it. As much as I dislike BillCo I dislike stealing S/W
I see a lot of "I hate Windows but love wine" posts but all that amounts to is saying that merely saws "I like windows but don't want to pay M$ for the opertunity".
t ime/compiles(runs)-on-most(some?)-kernels/requires -addtional-libraries/requires-addtional-software/b inaries-not-availale" software
Our use of wine, wabi and other windows emulators prove that we love windows and the apps that require windows. We just don't like M$ profitting from our love of windows.
M$ didn't set the standard, we did... as a market, we bought what was avaialable and focused on keeping things compatable... We created the M$ jugernaught and now we don't like it any more.
Diposing the ruler of the desktop with lindows and other linux distros is more like ants at a picnic than anything else... in other words... more of an iritation than competition.
What we really need are linux apps that work like, act like and look like windows apps and that are 100% (99.999%) compatable with regular commercial winodws apps. We need more functionality as well as better functionality... With a GUI that is easy to use and not too unlike those of windows apps.
What we don't need are more "half-assed/semi-functioning/not-ready-for-prime-
Star Office, for example, is nice but it doesn't hold a candle to the "old" MS office 97. Star Office is bulky, hard to work with, doesn't have the functionality of MS Office and you can't install only one part at a time like with MS Office. Don't forget about the compatibility issues.
Star Office is one of the best examples of great office software for linux users but not as replacement office software for the average Office user. Open Source developers need to look at what the average consumer wants, not what the average linux user wants. That is, if you want to attract the average consumer to linux.
There is very little that Open source offers that compares (from a standard desktop user's point of view) to the commercial software they are required to pay for to before they get to install and grow to like.
Lets see some Open Source projects that cause the standard windows user to drool over and want to make the switch to linux, not just apps that make linux users drool because the new app kind-of/sort-of (lamely) replaces or emulates a windows app.
One suggestion would be to do like Mac OS/X... Get M$ to base a windows version on a linux kernel integration. Make MS your friend and get them to do the work for you. You'll end up with the best(/worst) of both worlds. plus, there would be no need for lindows.
mind you, you "will" hate having to support all those moronic windows users that you may attract to linux by giving then real reasons to want the stuff. Just like it when they invaded the internet and brought you cheap high-bandwidth broadband.
BTW, I'm an linux user that loves linux and wishes there was no reason to use windows but I work in a sociaty that requires windows because that's the standard and there just really isn't a (real) repalcement (yet).
P.S. I could go on and on and on and on and on but I got to get back to my real job and stop waisting company time on profit-less deversions.....
Jesus people, get off your soapbox. 90% of you complain about Windows but yet wish you could play the same games on Linux that you do on Windows. Yet, in recent days 2 products were announce that provide Linux people with the ability to play Windows based games and you bitch about it. What's even more amazing, is that some of you are saying it's a piece of crap..without it being released! How do you know it sucks? What if those of us who are Windows transplants said Linux sucked without trying it? You would be bitching then too. Get off your high horse and recognize that people and/or companies are trying to provide a VALUABLE SERVICE for you to use Windows games with.
Flame me and call me a troll, but sometimes the truth hurts.
My sig of choice is Marlboro
You make a good point about the difference in what drives proprietary vs. open source software. Whether or not one outpaces the other depends on how well the different drives work.
Linux (and *BSD) do better in areas where individuals can easily contribute (for example, a few people writing a driver for a kernel). They also are great for providing choice. Linux supports several different, well developed GUI models.
However, there are some areas I think the model works less well in. For instance, game development is hard under an open source model. Sure, there are some great games for Linux, but they tend to be simpler and shorter. Modern mainstream games are huge and involve a lot of effort by non-programmers. It's like the difference between small independant films and big studio productions.
However, bringing this back to the story, there is no reason not to mix the two models. There's no reason not to try to make Linux run proprietary apps designed for Windows. In fact, I think we should be able to make them run better.
Most programs use APIs to open files and let the OS do the work. So the filesystem is irrelevent. The only programs that HAVE to be aware of the filesystem are filesystem utilities, like scandisk.
In response to:
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'm still unsure of how a Windows app is installed on a Linux partition, without actually having Windows. Does WINE allow the installer (some Windows installers can be *quite* obnoxious) to run and copy stuff into directories on the Linux system? I've never actually tried WINE before, and I don't know how it works.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I mean, how many closed WINE forks does the world need?
None. You can't drink Wine with a fork. Duh!
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Odin has come a very long way since then. It has been totally rewritten from the ground up. In fact , you can't even take advantage of some of it's features if you are not post SP/FP12. Apps like WinAmp, Realplayer, Agent and alot of other programs run quite reliably. eCS is great if just for the fact that you mentioned, but I understand about the price. I got in on the early upgrade offer for $135.
oh yes FP12. I'm sorry, multi-terminology. Real Player was half working when I touched it last. That is, half of us had it working.
:)
Yest, FP12 was the 'big one' that increased addressable memory or something and allowed WinWord to crash after starting further than it did before
Don't get me wrong, I love OS/2, but it's the freaking application support that's the problem. And while I played some of my best Descent I/II games from OS/2 (OS/2-DOS is better than MS-DOS 7), it's a lot easier to get newer games running under Linux than OS/2.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
If the cost of eCS is too much (and I admit, it is higher than I'd like, but apparently IBM controls most of that), you can try UpdCD to make your own updated Warp 4 CD for installation. It's a lot of work, though.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
What motivates people to base a business on a dead, closed platform????
They're saying Linux is like the old "IBM Clone" PCs. They're not saying anything other than it's another version of Unix.
Linux is Unix at heart, but has evolved to be a jumble of various things.
That's all they're pointing out. People know what Unix is, they might not know what Linux is...
So what we end up here is a cheaper alternative to Windows that allows us to run Windows software. We still have the cost/licensing issues of Windows software however. Business users are still going to need Office. So what, you save about a $100-200 per workstation OS (if you pay $99 for LindowsOS vs the full version of XP Professional or XP Home). You're still paying tons of cash for all of your applications.
Your favorite distro + Ximian GNOME w/ Red Carpet + Star Office still seems like a more workable business solution to me. And you could still add Wine if you needed it for your legacy Windows apps.
Still, I'm anxiously awaiting the preview release.
'Same speed C but faster'
Why would you want a way for viruses to get onto your system? That's why I run linux, so I don't have to worry about catching any nasty bugs on my box. If I'm not mistaken, WINE already has that problem.
Linux is much more than 'a ten-year-old product.'
It's also:
-A network fileserver which can do RAID entirely in software (my in-house fs is doing an IDE and a SCSI RAID 5.. you need that kind of reliability when you're making movies!);
-Able to take advantage of almost any configuration of hardware, from an 80386 with 4MB RAM and a 40 MB HD to an multiprocessor Itanium with gigs of RAM and teras of HD, to distributed supercomputing a la Beowulf (To contrast: WinXP Home can only use a 300Mc+ single processor Intel32/AMD architecture; Pro can use up to eight SMP processors of the Intel32/AMD variety;Mac OS X needs a G3 or better; both need at least 256 MB RAM and more than a gig of HD to be run properly.)
-The most configurable Internet servers possible;
-Great workstations for almost any apps you can think of;
-The most evolutionary software product out there.
That last feature is The Big Deal(tm). Linux is a kernel which has been evolving since release 0.0.1. It's gradually expanded to every kind of processor possible, developing the ability to work with a wicked lot of hardware, growing to PCMCIA utilization; video acceleration support; USB & 1394 access; and ust about any filesystem of significance can be at least read by Linux.
Now.. I haven't had the chance or the excuse to use WINE yet, but I hope it works (so I don't need a Windows partition on my new laptop.. a vaio.. (drool)... (cleaning off my chin... sorry)) because I want to be able to use an old, pre-DMCA (can we say no Macrovision problems? I knew we could!) PCMCIA card which could both capture video without processor overhead at 1/2 resolution (it accepts PAL, SECAM, and NTSC input) and act as a TV tuner anywhere in the world. I haven't seen any info on it working under Linux, so I must use the mabnufacturer-provided software and perform acts of RevEnge on it (since the pricks at Nogatech have refused to give me any useful data on the card.... jerks)
If this 'Lindows' distribution works, it would be a boon for all us open-source types, because one more barrier to entry would be lowered and the bar of stability under Linux (or *BSD, for that matter) is miles above that of even this new bastard XP. (I'd place money they've got some GPL code in there. I can just smell it.)
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
From MSNBC :
"LINDOWS.COM, a 20-person San Diego company led by former MP3.com chief executive Michael Robertson, plans to sell a preview edition of the software for $99 this quarter, with version 1.0 coming in early 2002."
So we'd have to pay for the buggy preview release? How about testing that with people for free than selling it when (if) it gets to be a good product???
By the way, their web site has nothing on it but their press release. Does this mean that they haven't gotten any farther than conceptualization? It seems time to get it done in 12-18 months unless they're just not showing they've made progress.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
Actually, last time I checked, Transgaming said that they will release the source each time their subscrition numbers increase by another 25,000. Or something like that. Plus transgaming have already donated a lot of DirectX stuff back without having ANY subscribers, so I think their intentions are good. So no; it won't be a closed fork.
Linux will never make it as a desktop OS as long as Grandma has to recompile the kernel to get the pictures of her grandson Billy onto the desktop from her digital camera.
First a salad fork, and now a wine fork?
Call me an uncivilized brute, but I'll just use a glass, thanks.
You BASTARD! You know what this means?!?
Now I'll have to waste a few hours installing OS/2 again! ARGH!!!
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I find it hard to believe that Robertson has the ability to make this happen.
.mp3 format, HE JUST OWNED THE DOMAIN NAME.
.com boom collapsed and people realized what a lousy business model mp3.com really was.
After all, lets get real here, the man built a business (very unprofitable btw) around a domain name. In terms of technology, he did not have a speck of influence on the
His luck ran out when the
I don't doubt that Robertson has business skills, but I am not as impressed with his track record as many people seem to be. I don't see him pulling off what Corel and others failed to do.
[jerry seinfeld]
I mean realllly, One for every college student who's too cheap to buy a real cork screw I guess.
[/jerry seinfeld] -J
If anyone out there has a hobby of creating mirrors of websites of doomed companies, someone get a copy of www.lindows.com now while you still can.
SIG:"Plurimae leges, corruptissima re publica"
"Sic transeunt omnia."
so instead of winblows will we eventually get linblows?
Easy.
/dev/cdrom now."
The install script will request "Please insert your Windows 95/98 CD into
.. and extract the necessary DLLs from the Windows setup CABs.
Jason
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.lind ows.com
If that isn't enough reason to be suspicious, I don't know what is!
And yet an iceberg brought down the Titanic...
(cue stirring music).
RMS WindowsXP- 4 miles down...
graspee
The transgaming patches are NOT closed source, they are just not Free Software. You can download them (see the winex project on sourceforge) or get them from CVS, you just can't use them for anything commercial.
if you define that which is not Open Source is closed source (as most Linux users do).
The Open Source Definition defines (oddly enough) what Open Source means. The non commercial restriction violates these guidelines and means that Transgamings patches are not open source.
WineX is `source code available' software (although thats not a well definied term), like Qmail, TinyDNS, Microsoft PocketPC, or Pine.
at the expense of alienating 200% of the would-be Linux market.
Michael Robertson hopes that every slashdotter will buy a copy out of curiosity.
.
Perhaps the real intent is to give the GPL it's first legal test? Don't forget the bru-haa-haa of the MP3 court battles...
MP3.Com's existence basically made the mp3 format illegal (with more penalties yet to come.)
Is Lindows.com intention to help make Linux illegal?
I have to agree. Does "Open Source" have to mean that you give up your rights to any profit? Sounds like Communism to me. Shouldn't Open Source mean that the average joe can look at the source and change it if he needs to? Even give what he makes out to others? That's open enough for me.
I like Transgaming. I've talk to some of their developers on IRC and the head guy. They were all nice and very helpful when I was messing with CVS code. I hope they are able to turn a profit and bring a large number of games to Linux.
I also realize that I don't have to pay to use the code... but I will pay to have a vote in what they work on next and to keep them in business.
Does it LSOD? ;)
It looks interesting, but I am not really buying it.
I wonder how you can still get funding for a business idea as stupid as this one.
All emulation software sucks. Wine sucks, Cygwin sucks as well. Maybe they're trying to combine the worst of the two!?
reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(lambda x:chr(ord(x)^42),tuple('zS^BED\nX_FOY\x0b')))
Its not quite fair to call windows a hoplessly crippeled operating system, i mean XP gives users more network access the any unix. i mean does unix give everyone access to raw sockets? --oninoshiko, of the ban XP from the internet campain
A common problem is that people tend to download the "release-level" packages for Odin, thinking they'll be more stable. DON'T!!! Download the SNAPSHOTS; they are the only thing that's been updated in the past year! (I believe the snapshots are compiled on a weekly basis.)
Various failed OS marketing ideas. Most failed for obvious reasons:
RancherOS - one for the Classic Ford lover
HohOS - an OS for the snack lover
JimbOS - included free with any entree on the children's menu
JojOS - $2.99 per CD at 7/11 (AOL 7.0 included free!)
HohOS 2.0 - after 1st failure, repacked for the modern hooker
Sodo MojOS - this OS giveaway not as popular as Ichiro bobblehead dolls
CherriOS - a good way to boot the day
YugOS - from the shores of the Adriatic Sea, the life of this jem was cut short by the war in Bosnia
EgOS - bundled with apps which flatter the narcissistic user
EscargOS - appealed to a few French Canadians
JellOS - for the geek who already has many OS's...there's always room for this one
MangOS - this flamboyantly gay OS didn't even make a decent SNL skit
BingOS - also, a version for traveling businessmen called HighwayBingOS
RambOS - don't mess with this OS!
LarryCurlyMOS - the components fought amongst eachother (usually bringing down your wallboard)
CheetOS - somehow your fingertips turn orange when using this one
DingOS - very popular...until babies started disappearing from homes all across the Australian outback
BozOS - a commercial flop, yet still a successful seller amongst Democrat Congressmen
TicTacTOS - companies running this OS will never go out of business...but neither will they make a profit
OreOS - had only one excellent feature sandwhiched between 2 boring ones
MentOS - an excellent OS, but killed by a ridiculous marketing campaign
LegOS - too pricey for the intended market (boys 5-15), but sold fairly well to the 25-35 geek male crowd
ZorrOS - a lousy OS, but came bundled with Catherine Zeta Jones desktop wallpaper
WeirdOS - later remarketed as Windows!!
People who use Linux aren't going to run to Lindows. It's meant for people who only know how to do what their grandchildren and secretaries have shown them.
For the rest of us, the hope of it is that it may get more software companies writing for Linux. It was the lack of software support that killed the Amiga (of course, it made sense so you didn't need proprietary software...).
Is it off-topic? Perhaps.
Just in case anyone missed it last time, it was posted...
How to make the Lotus Notes Client run with Wine
-- From Denmark
As the old saying goes... If Mohammed won't come to the mountain, then the mountain must come to Mohammed. Let's face some facts: Most Linux companies are living on the financial edge. Others have closed their doors entirely. Software companies have been very reluctant to take the financial risk and port to Linux. Outside of the server market, Linux has very limited success with the casual point and click user who, like it or not, are the vast majority of computer users. Microsoft is tightening the reigns, and the Registration Gestapo is gearing up. It won't be long before EVERY Windows OS flavor is subjected to the XP registration scheme - and price. Lindows makes sense. If Linux ever wants to emerge as a viable alternative to Windows, and Linux companies want to survive, then the Linux community is going to have to swallow a bit of its polarizing pride and make some concessions. Maybe one day software makers will all port to Linux, but for now, there is a huge need for an intermediary OS to span the gap and make it easier for the end user to accept Linux as a viable alternative and grow into it slowly. I believe Linux is the best and most promising alternative to the Microsoft monopoly, its high prices, restrictive licensing and buggy products we have ever seen. Lindows is a good, common sense move. It seeks to wean people off of Windows, and move them into the Linux Camp, but instead of stripping them of their tools, it allows them to bring them along. If the software companies and end user won't come to Linux, Linux needs to come to them.
...with or without capitals.
In other words, Windows is a delivery system for money.
Fizz
However, there are some areas I think the model works less well in. For instance, game development is hard under an open source model. Sure, there are some great games for Linux, but they tend to be simpler and shorter. Modern mainstream games are huge and involve a lot of effort by non-programmers. It's like the difference between small independant films and big studio productions.
:-)
Its very interesting that you mention games as that's one of the areas which I'm currently working on in the OS community. Getting good media for a project has always been the major sticking point for OS (and lone wolf) game developers. This is exactly why Worldforge is trying to put together a Free Media Repository. It's a place where artists can place their work and it can be used by game designers. Most of the content is under the GFDL and the GPL (although we do allow for 'less free' licenses). Worldforge has always had _tons_ of developers but artists are harder to come by. We have been lucky in having some really good artists in WorldForge so hopefully we can help some other projects bootstrap up with our artwork.
G. Washington on Government "it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
I believe that Lindows might gain acceptance through simplicity. Person buys it, it installs without any questions, it looks just like Windows, but it multitasks better. Simple.
Later, if he wants to learn the underpinnings, he can get into Linux administrative functions.
Another possible plus would be where the network administrator is more familiar with, or better likes, UNIX administration than Windows administration. He buys Lindows for all the desktops. The desktop guys are all happy because it runs all their Windows software. The admin is happy because he can administer it as a UNIX network.
Paul222
My main reason for not using Linux is that, insofar as I am aware, it just doesn't do the things I need my computer to do, which is run Adobe and Macromedia apps. And I need a MS-Word clone which allows transparent support for the .DOC format, and all of the usual text formatting bells and whistles. Much as I hate to say it, Windows does these things okay. XP actually does them really friggin' well, if the three weeks I've been running the Professional version without a single crash is any example.
So how is a kludge going to make things better? I mean, if it's just running WINE...honestly, why bother? Run XP if you need Windows, run Linux if you need Linux. I can't see this being anything than a combination of the worst aspects of both operating systems. I hope they can prove me wrong, though.
Personally, I wish somebody would start porting stuff to BeOS, because I think Be makes everything else just look embarrassing. Alas, though, it seems that Be has gone the way of CP/M...