How about Darl is number one on the list of most laughed at people in the computer world
How about making that the most hated man in the world. Saddam or Osama bin Laden might be number two, but not for long before they are forgotten, and some other guy from crack SCO management team takes their place.
The messages aren't in textual XML format, they're in WBXML, which isn't going to require nearly as much work in parsing etc.
Is the difference really that big? WBXML is kinda "compressed" XML, the semantics are exactly the same. You still have use either DOM trees or SAXish callbacks.
(Whether you consider WBXML messages to be "fixed binary format" or not is up to you.)
It's not, it has the same freedom of structure (nesting etc.) as XML.
This is what is great about Open Source - people can innovate, create new systems, and if they prove to be good, they can be widely deployed. That's how progress happens, and the heart of a developer rejoices on seeing things like this. In the end, superior technology will triumph, and seeing that he is using Python, he is already well on his way:-).
And as for all of you sticking to the old stuff, because it's good enough: are you sure you are not just getting old? The time I start to whine about progress ("the old way was good enough") will be a sad day indeed. Or perhaps this is the difference between sysadmin-types and programmer-type: sysadmins like to stick to old shell script based system because it's uniquity, while developers see the opportunities of new technologies and have a certain inborn respect for technological superiority.
Linux will evolve, live with it. If the old system is indeed better, it will be used indefinitely, but unless we try something different, we will never know. Having some distros doing the thing in an alternative way is a good way to hash this out.
I for one welcome our new freedesktop.org overlords. I'm really liking the direction that Havoc Pennington and other Gnome-related people are taking as far as desktop things go. We need more dynamic & motivated people like them on powerful positions.
Readability of Perl has rarely been considered a matter of opinion.
And now you're talking about "open" in an entirely different context from "OSS".
I don't consider a source code very open if it is extremely unreadable, especially in case of willfull obfuscation with tools etc.
What? Yes, they can. Why not?
Because perl just doesn't scale to large problems. Even Larry Wall agrees with that, or at least has at some interviews. This is something perl6 is trying to fix.
Before you leap into a reply you may want to consider if you really know much about Perl at all.
I know just enough not to like it. I have tried to like it, though; I've read most of the O'Reilly basic Perl (PP, advanced perl programming, LP...) books, so you can hardly say I didn't give it a chance. And then I discovered Python, and realized I had been wasting my time giving Perl a chance.
You won't succeed in convincing anyone, and will actually drive people away with statements such as "furthering the OSS movement more, not to mention their own careers..."
I can admin that I could have been more diplomatic, but such a thing rarely occurs when Perl and Python people collide on slashdot; Perl and Python are the Emacs and VI of modern times:-). Additionally, it was saturday night and I had been drinking in preparation for a night at a club, so...:)
Why not talk about the object models instead, say?
Perl adapted it's object model from Python's, but somehow, it doesn't feel right or natural. It's probably because it has messed up reference system, while python treats everything naturally as a reference.
Anyway, good luck with Python. It is a nice language, as I said. I use it a lot.
Why is choosing Python furthering OSS more than using Perl?
Because Python code is much more readable than Perl. Hence, it's more Open, because more people can take a look at the code, learn from it, and hack it.
[about careers]
This might well be true, but in my experience and judgement it wouldn't at all.
With Python, people can do bigger programs faster, One Python program equals ~ 4 Java/C++ programmers in productivity. Perl programmers are not even in the same league, because they can't implement systems of similar scale/complexity. Churning out cute little scripts is not a wise career move in the long run, even if it can be a lifesaver in various situations. Management is more likely to assume that those scripts could have been written by anyone, while with bigger programs one can demonstrate their architectural vision.
Is there any reason to use Slackware, besides 31337 penis erlargement ?
And what's more important than 31337 penis enlargement? This being slashdot, after all...
Frankly, I agree w/ you to some extent. SlW was my first distro, and I tried the last two installments. Frankly, I can't think of any reason to run it right now, given Debian's easy apt-get upgrade and red hat's and SUSE's "it just works" mentality. But I still wouldn't want to see the world without Slackware.
Python 2.3.1 [python.org] final was released this week. Where was the Slashdot story about that one?
And they haven't even got a topic for Python yet... *grumble*.
Slashdot is quite a bit biased towards perl, probably because the engine has been coded in perl. Let's forgive them for that. However, it's a shame that a language that seems so far to be the only free-speech-free-beer language capable of taking on Java and C# gets so little attention.
Will it take a Chandler release for all of you to wake up? Obviously I'm treading the wrong territory here, this being a Perl article an all. By hacking w/ Python, many Perl mongers would be furthering the OSS movement more, not to mention their own careers...
As far as py2.3.1 goes, it's hardly big news, it being just a bugfix release after all.
. I'd love to abandon MSN, but I can't without all my friends wondering why I don't talk to them anymore.
Well, you might want to say that you can be reached in Jabber network. Then they should just add Jabber to trilian (why hasn't this been done already?) and voila, they could talk to you.
I myself don't use Jabber, because my friends don't have accounts there (most use ICQ). But once people get burned enough times, they realize that an open standards based system that can't be taken away from them by a whim is the way to go... and they will migrate.
Here on Earth, companies don't hesitade to abuse their market position or enourmous wealth to block normal competition.
So we should just crawl into a hole and die?
IM is not owned by any company yet, let alone MSFT. An Open alternative has a good position to beat the proprietary opposition, especially as it is quite divided already. Open Standards are the "in" thing right now.
Wouldn't it be fabulous if various Corporate platforms (Notes, etc.) chose to use the Jabber protocol as the IM solution? Then everyone would be running Jabber clients already, and communicating with friends would be a natural extension of that activity. I took a look at the Jabber page, inspired by this article, and saw that they are co-operating with IETF to standardize the protocol... and therein lies the future.
Well, it's their network so they can block anyone they want.
If you don't like their rules (I don't), why don't create a free/open/documented IM network? Make it better than the commercial offerings, and people will come.
where students come up with an idea for a record album, cover art, and lyrics only to be told by teachers that the album is already available for download for free.
Sounds like a game that is going to get real old, real fast.
SCO claims that HP's actions support SCO's position
Yes, and that they wish Red Hat and IBM follow suit. So they are urging other companies to indeminfy people if they happen to be sued by them. Kinda like "I urge everybody to buy a gun, to protect them from me, because I just might feel like killing someone".
His playbook is obviously to avoid mentioning "linux" and just substitute "Java Desktop System" at every opportunity.
To me it seems that they want to give an image that the underlying OS doesn't matter, it's the stuff that's above it. And as far as the underlying OS goes, expect them to start offering it with "more stable, mature Solaris that works exactly like the older Linux version".
What do you mean, "possibly"? It has been explitictly shown that they are funding them.
Sun have been trying to look good to Linux crowd (in various expos etc), while slamming Linux every opportunity they get on the media and behind the scenes. They probably think we don't follow the media?
BTW, what's the status of OOo right now? Would the project survive if Sun stopped paying the developers? Does it have a healthy community yet? Mozilla did well, we'll see how OOo does. Novell & Red Hat would do well to be ready to pay some people to get intimately familiar with the code base..
How long we can trust these backstabbers remains to be seen.
Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.
Obviously Sun is not "committed", but all in all, this bodes well for Linux: more desktop apps will be tested and developed specifically on Linux.
However, you can expect Sun to push the Linux solution for a while, utilizing the momentun Linux has (and Solaris doesn't), and as sudden "problems" with Linux appears, the don't really have motivation to fix the problems; rather, they suggest that the customers of their "Java Desktop" switch to Solaris-x86.
Also from the article, regarding the perception that Sun is being unethical in supporting SCO:
I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future--customers are.
So we don't matter, eh? The Open Source community are not your "customers"? Schwarz misses part of the point, in that techies are their customers, and quite a lot of techies are very Linux-sympathetic these days. Arrogance doesn't help anyone, either.
I dunno, but Schwarz comes out as quite an asshole in that article, and I can't really tell whether I wish Sun a great success with Mad Hatter. It is good for Linux and Open Standards and all, but Sun has the wrong attitude about the whole thing. They would do well to play a "nice guy" for a while (like they do/did with Open Office), it might occasionally pay off.
"Traditional" implies TRADITION - you know, as in "the way things have always been done"
Exactly, and the "way things have always been done" implies that more than 2 guys have done them that way.
(hypothetical
I created my own disto based on Linux kernel 0.1, the year it came out. It executed a random program on boot, and reboots. I hereby declare this mode of operation as the "Traditional Linux way". )
Next time, don't try to redefine a word to make yourself look good - you just make yourself look like more of an idiot that you already have.
Thank you Mr. Coward. Your insight is always appreciated.
Sure, it doesn't act like "real" Linux for a lot of things,
Examples? Gentoo diverges most radically from the "real" Linux way of doing things, followed by Slackware. Red Hat is pretty conservative regarding this stuff, i.e. it uses sysvinit and does pretty much everything in the way things used to be done.
Slashdot Mirror
so we can play all our favorite programs and games.
Not to mention music and movies.
Don't.
How about Darl is number one on the list of most laughed at people in the computer world
How about making that the most hated man in the world. Saddam or Osama bin Laden might be number two, but not for long before they are forgotten, and some other guy from crack SCO management team takes their place.
The messages aren't in textual XML format, they're in WBXML, which isn't going to require nearly as much work in parsing etc.
Is the difference really that big? WBXML is kinda "compressed" XML, the semantics are exactly the same. You still have use either DOM trees or SAXish callbacks.
(Whether you consider WBXML messages to be "fixed binary format" or not is up to you.)
It's not, it has the same freedom of structure (nesting etc.) as XML.
This is what is great about Open Source - people can innovate, create new systems, and if they prove to be good, they can be widely deployed. That's how progress happens, and the heart of a developer rejoices on seeing things like this. In the end, superior technology will triumph, and seeing that he is using Python, he is already well on his way :-).
And as for all of you sticking to the old stuff, because it's good enough: are you sure you are not just getting old? The time I start to whine about progress ("the old way was good enough") will be a sad day indeed. Or perhaps this is the difference between sysadmin-types and programmer-type: sysadmins like to stick to old shell script based system because it's uniquity, while developers see the opportunities of new technologies and have a certain inborn respect for technological superiority.
Linux will evolve, live with it. If the old system is indeed better, it will be used indefinitely, but unless we try something different, we will never know. Having some distros doing the thing in an alternative way is a good way to hash this out.
I for one welcome our new freedesktop.org overlords. I'm really liking the direction that Havoc Pennington and other Gnome-related people are taking as far as desktop things go. We need more dynamic & motivated people like them on powerful positions.
No one cares about what *you* consider to be open.
I can hardly speak for anyone else but myself.
Perl 6: since you don't know anything about Perl it's best not to dig yourself in any deeper by starting to talk about Perl 6.
As I said, I know quite enough about perl, definitely more than I want to know.
The best thing to do is grow up a bit, admit you were flatly wrong in the first place, and move on. Really.
Yeah, whatever.
The "readability" issue is merely an opinion.
:-). Additionally, it was saturday night and I had been drinking in preparation for a night at a club, so... :)
Readability of Perl has rarely been considered a matter of opinion.
And now you're talking about "open" in an entirely different context from "OSS".
I don't consider a source code very open if it is extremely unreadable, especially in case of willfull obfuscation with tools etc.
What? Yes, they can. Why not?
Because perl just doesn't scale to large problems. Even Larry Wall agrees with that, or at least has at some interviews. This is something perl6 is trying to fix.
Before you leap into a reply you may want to consider if you really know much about Perl at all.
I know just enough not to like it. I have tried to like it, though; I've read most of the O'Reilly basic Perl (PP, advanced perl programming, LP...) books, so you can hardly say I didn't give it a chance. And then I discovered Python, and realized I had been wasting my time giving Perl a chance.
You won't succeed in convincing anyone, and will actually drive people away with statements such as "furthering the OSS movement more, not to mention their own careers..."
I can admin that I could have been more diplomatic, but such a thing rarely occurs when Perl and Python people collide on slashdot; Perl and Python are the Emacs and VI of modern times
Why not talk about the object models instead, say?
Perl adapted it's object model from Python's, but somehow, it doesn't feel right or natural. It's probably because it has messed up reference system, while python treats everything naturally as a reference.
Anyway, good luck with Python. It is a nice language, as I said. I use it a lot.
Great.
Why is choosing Python furthering OSS more than using Perl?
Because Python code is much more readable than Perl. Hence, it's more Open, because more people can take a look at the code, learn from it, and hack it.
[about careers]
This might well be true, but in my experience and judgement it wouldn't at all.
With Python, people can do bigger programs faster, One Python program equals ~ 4 Java/C++ programmers in productivity. Perl programmers are not even in the same league, because they can't implement systems of similar scale/complexity. Churning out cute little scripts is not a wise career move in the long run, even if it can be a lifesaver in various situations. Management is more likely to assume that those scripts could have been written by anyone, while with bigger programs one can demonstrate their architectural vision.
so it's difficult to differentiate yourself from your competition and implement value-added-features to attract customers to your platform.
But if you are already selling a platform, where IM is just an add-in, a standards-compliant IM is not going to hurt you.
Is there any reason to use Slackware, besides 31337 penis erlargement ?
And what's more important than 31337 penis enlargement? This being slashdot, after all...
Frankly, I agree w/ you to some extent. SlW was my first distro, and I tried the last two installments. Frankly, I can't think of any reason to run it right now, given Debian's easy apt-get upgrade and red hat's and SUSE's "it just works" mentality. But I still wouldn't want to see the world without Slackware.
Python 2.3.1 [python.org] final was released this week. Where was the Slashdot story about that one?
And they haven't even got a topic for Python yet... *grumble*.
Slashdot is quite a bit biased towards perl, probably because the engine has been coded in perl. Let's forgive them for that. However, it's a shame that a language that seems so far to be the only free-speech-free-beer language capable of taking on Java and C# gets so little attention.
Will it take a Chandler release for all of you to wake up? Obviously I'm treading the wrong territory here, this being a Perl article an all. By hacking w/ Python, many Perl mongers would be furthering the OSS movement more, not to mention their own careers...
As far as py2.3.1 goes, it's hardly big news, it being just a bugfix release after all.
. I'd love to abandon MSN, but I can't without all my friends wondering why I don't talk to them anymore.
Well, you might want to say that you can be reached in Jabber network. Then they should just add Jabber to trilian (why hasn't this been done already?) and voila, they could talk to you.
I myself don't use Jabber, because my friends don't have accounts there (most use ICQ). But once people get burned enough times, they realize that an open standards based system that can't be taken away from them by a whim is the way to go... and they will migrate.
Here on Earth, companies don't hesitade to abuse their market position or enourmous wealth to block normal competition.
So we should just crawl into a hole and die?
IM is not owned by any company yet, let alone MSFT. An Open alternative has a good position to beat the proprietary opposition, especially as it is quite divided already. Open Standards are the "in" thing right now.
Wouldn't it be fabulous if various Corporate platforms (Notes, etc.) chose to use the Jabber protocol as the IM solution? Then everyone would be running Jabber clients already, and communicating with friends would be a natural extension of that activity. I took a look at the Jabber page, inspired by this article, and saw that they are co-operating with IETF to standardize the protocol... and therein lies the future.
Well, it's their network so they can block anyone they want.
If you don't like their rules (I don't), why don't create a free/open/documented IM network? Make it better than the commercial offerings, and people will come.
How's Jabber doing these days, anyway?
How funny, just last week I was wondering what desktop to put on an old P133 with 48mb of RAM.
Slightly OT, but you might want to try out IceWM. It runs fine on a p200, 32MB, heavy load, remote X.
where students come up with an idea for a record album, cover art, and lyrics only to be told by teachers that the album is already available for download for free.
Sounds like a game that is going to get real old, real fast.
SCO claims that HP's actions support SCO's position
Yes, and that they wish Red Hat and IBM follow suit. So they are urging other companies to indeminfy people if they happen to be sued by them. Kinda like "I urge everybody to buy a gun, to protect them from me, because I just might feel like killing someone".
Don't bogart that crack, Darth.
I bet they'll try to vote earlier than planned, just in order to not hear the GNU/Linux rant again.
His playbook is obviously to avoid mentioning "linux" and just substitute "Java Desktop System" at every opportunity.
To me it seems that they want to give an image that the underlying OS doesn't matter, it's the stuff that's above it. And as far as the underlying OS goes, expect them to start offering it with "more stable, mature Solaris that works exactly like the older Linux version".
and possibly funding them
What do you mean, "possibly"? It has been explitictly shown that they are funding them.
Sun have been trying to look good to Linux crowd (in various expos etc), while slamming Linux every opportunity they get on the media and behind the scenes. They probably think we don't follow the media?
BTW, what's the status of OOo right now? Would the project survive if Sun stopped paying the developers? Does it have a healthy community yet? Mozilla did well, we'll see how OOo does. Novell & Red Hat would do well to be ready to pay some people to get intimately familiar with the code base..
How long we can trust these backstabbers remains to be seen.
From an article:
Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.
Obviously Sun is not "committed", but all in all, this bodes well for Linux: more desktop apps will be tested and developed specifically on Linux.
However, you can expect Sun to push the Linux solution for a while, utilizing the momentun Linux has (and Solaris doesn't), and as sudden "problems" with Linux appears, the don't really have motivation to fix the problems; rather, they suggest that the customers of their "Java Desktop" switch to Solaris-x86.
Also from the article, regarding the perception that Sun is being unethical in supporting SCO:
I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future--customers are.
So we don't matter, eh? The Open Source community are not your "customers"? Schwarz misses part of the point, in that techies are their customers, and quite a lot of techies are very Linux-sympathetic these days. Arrogance doesn't help anyone, either.
I dunno, but Schwarz comes out as quite an asshole in that article, and I can't really tell whether I wish Sun a great success with Mad Hatter. It is good for Linux and Open Standards and all, but Sun has the wrong attitude about the whole thing. They would do well to play a "nice guy" for a while (like they do/did with Open Office), it might occasionally pay off.
"Traditional" implies TRADITION - you know, as in "the way things have always been done"
Exactly, and the "way things have always been done" implies that more than 2 guys have done them that way.
(hypothetical
I created my own disto based on Linux kernel 0.1, the year it came out. It executed a random program on boot, and reboots. I hereby declare this mode of operation as the "Traditional Linux way".
)
Next time, don't try to redefine a word to make yourself look good - you just make yourself look like more of an idiot that you already have.
Thank you Mr. Coward. Your insight is always appreciated.
You probably mean something like "Linux-popular"
"Traditional" implies a degree of popularity. It's the way most distributions do things, the way that is taught at various Linux courses...
But this is all semantics.
You are right in that Gentoo is a little off the wall, but Slackware is very traditional in many aspects.
Yes, but not "Linux-traditional".
Sure, it doesn't act like "real" Linux for a lot of things,
Examples? Gentoo diverges most radically from the "real" Linux way of doing things, followed by Slackware. Red Hat is pretty conservative regarding this stuff, i.e. it uses sysvinit and does pretty much everything in the way things used to be done.