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Java Desktop System Rivals XP, OSX in Usability
protohiro1 writes "In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.' Well, I'm sold. Will this finally sell the PHBs on a linux corporate desktop?" Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
Java, eh? Perfect! I don't have to spill coffee on my computer anymore, it's built-in now!
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
So, it rivals OSX in usability because Nautilus has a toolbar button that opens a Documents folder, it can browse SMB and NFS shares, Evolution showed an hourglass cursor while launching, and - are you ready for this? - cut, copy and paste work.
Yep, I'm sold.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
...but having a website with broken links (particularly of the screenshot) isn't the best way to garner support, especially for a product with fierce competition.
A blog like any other.
Funny how the article on Slashdot has an ad for Microsoft and when reading the linked article, I get an ad for an MS product too.
My sig of choice is Marlboro
So, we can rewrite 20 years of software for this desktop?
The three most important things about a new platform are: applications, applications, applications. I know the world was meant to switch to Java some time in 1998, but somehow it did not happen except for a certain class (sorry) of application service.
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Um... that's kind of like saying blows the doors off a 386-SX25.
So what's the advantage of switching from a Microsoft OS to one from Sun? Since it's not free I actually feel it's a rip-off and a major vendor lock-in. JVMs running everywhere on your machine. I'll pass, thank you very much!
Sun is making profit over the open source community by selling free software bundled with their own.
Unlike MS systems, this will be REALLY configurable, so that more computer-savvy users can change the window manager and the behaviour of the windows, etc... This system may set the standard for many KDE/Gnome versions and distro's to come.
-- Cheers!
Damn, the link is broken again! I keep clicking on the link you posted and nothing happened!
I know a lot of people are going to immediately jump on Java saying how terribly it performs on their systems, and I can't really argue with that :) However, I don't think a Java desktop is such a bad idea. My guess it that Sun is targeting their existing users and trying to get them to pay for a Sun desktop for Macs and x86 machines on the network.
Java's known to be compatible across a variety of platforms, so it makes sense to bring a common desktop to all platforms. If the Java desktop is nearly as good as the Newforge guy claims (And I know Newsforge is pretty biased in favor of anything non-Microsoft), I can see this becoming sort of a standard for businesses already running Sun systems. If they can get the Java desktop to run on top of Windows and make it easy to install, it could even become a de-facto standard for networks running multiple architectures.
From the article: The price, $50 per seat per year, including updates and support is attractive, especially if Sun's $100/seat Java Enterprise System lives up to its goal of allowing 2000+ users to be administered by a single IT worker.
I was interested in checking it out, but at $50/seat/year it's a little to much for me to suggest setting up on all the machines. I don't mind paying -- but I have Windows machines that I haven't paid anything for in years. I don't have to pay unless I want to upgrade those boxes. This looks like a solution that's trying to be as much like Windows as possible, but with a TCO that's higher.
I'd be OK with $100 flat fee. Then if I want support (past 30 days or whatever), I can pay extra.
That said I might want to get one seat just to check it out, but there's no way it's going to replace my current Linux or Windows desktops at that price.
Z.
Meanwhile, Sun sends millions of dollars in "license money" to SCO, and keeps spreading FUD about Linux to promote its own OS offering, Solaris. Even Sun's own employees know that Java is a piece of crap, and everyone who has ever tried to run a Java client application (without drinking Sun's Kool-Aid first) knows that, too. Sun should be boycotted for their collaboration with SCO alone, but the fact that they have pushed a programming language into academia which cannot be used to develop competitive client applications has done more to harm the tech community than Microsoft.
Yes, Java can be used for server applications (a claim which Java proponents ridiculuously uphold to demonstrate that Java is good technology -- if it couldn't, it would be quite useless, wouldn't it?), but so can Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, OCaml and many other powerful and completely open programming language that are not controlled by a megacorporation which is in bed with SCO. There is no need whatsoever to use Sun, and the sooner the IT community learns that, the better.
Argh! Just now I was trying to download the JRE, but for some reason all their servers were busy, something I haven't seen before... and then I see this. YOU people are the reason, aren't you?! /.ings are all well and good until they get in the way of my personal convenience, so move along! Nothing to see here!
With the reviews claiming that "StarOffice 7" is as good as the forthcoming MSOffice, and now this review claiming that what is essentially a repackaged Linux distro is a competitor for Windows XP... and the noise around MadHatter...
It sounds simply like there are a couple of very busy marketing and communications people at Sun who have been calling in the tabs with their journalist friends.
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In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.
From this article :
The "proper" name of Sun Linux is "Java Desktop System" (which can be confusing as Sun is branding everything as "%java%" lately, exactly the same way Microsoft did with their ".NET"). The development/high-end version of Java Desktop System (JDS) is called "Java Enterprise System". The distribution is based on SuSE 8.2 and not on Red Hat Linux as it was originally said about a year ago.
According to that article Java Desktop System is a Linux distribution, not just a desktop.
The Java Desktop System is shipped with Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition, 1.4.2 (with support for GNOME Look & Feel). The Java runtime is built into the desktop and into the Mozilla browser.
I get the strong feeling that this is nothing more than a customized Gnome-distro with support for Java binaries. Especially since there is no information on what it really is...
That raises the question "So what?". Why should I be interested?
Lemon curry???
Wow. Java's really opening up the world to the power of Linux usability. And to think, how many years went by without the Documents folder on the desktop?
That's why successive Windows interfaces have been progressively dumbed-down from the perspective of a highly-computer-literate user. Marketing types refer to this as greater ease of use.
Okay. Usability design types, however, refer to it as "progressive dumbing down".
The Nautilus file browser, while initially set to a large icon view, allowed a side pane and file tree display not unlike Windows Explorer, and it uncomplainingly offered a view of everything in the file system, another feature that presumably would not be welcomed in an enterprise production desktop.
Uncomplainingly? Yeah, okay, it's a word, technically, but it sucks as a word. If the writologist proofreadicated his articlation, he might findify prosage less awkwarditious.
Nevertheless, it's a relief that the usability of Windows Explorer is retained in the Java Desktop.
Also, is Java really open sourced? Is StarOffice? OpenOffice is, but StarOffice, well ...
Whatever. The article reads like marketing spooge, and it's based on a demo off a CD. Did this really make Slashdot's home page?
Crap. And to think my post about stripper techno-implants got rejected ...
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
You know what? I LIVE in the real world. I DONT like the standard that windows sets. I LIKE being able to customise my fvwm desktop to suit myself.
What this does is just allow the trained masses to migrate easily. Great. A start, probably. But a leap forward for Linux? Sorry, just dont see it that way. Why do people get excited when another windows clone comes out, and we are supposed to act like its the Holy Grail for Linux?
Having said that, I understand the business rationale of not wanting to retrain its end users, its a productivity issue. But I dont see how I am suddenly in the UNREAL world because i use, and train users, in Linux. I find windows, and its lack of customisation, closed source, and limited administration, to be a bit surreal, personally!
Nothing - well thats something.
Where in the "article" does it say that the "Desktop" delivers anything more than support for Java?
Lemon curry???
That's great. It has pretty icons and widgets.
Now could I please have a rundown on all the backend stuff?
This includes but is not limited to:
What tools do Sun intend to provide me with so that I can create a Standard Operating Environment.
How effective are these tools in large scale configurations?
How well can application rollouts be managed on >100 machines?
"SUN HAS PRETTY WIDGETS!" doesn't give me any useful information whatsoever.
"successive Windows interfaces have been progressively dumbed-down from the perspective of a highly-computer-literate user. Marketing types refer to this as greater ease of use.
And Sun has clearly done its homework on ease-of-use"
Holy shit, they come right out and tell you they dumbed it down... and they act like it's a selling point.
I see no mention of Java being used in the core of this system, it's all built on Gnome & GTK isn't it? I heard that Sun have started to recognise the marketing potential in Java and said they will be exploiting it to greater extent in the future. Is that what is happening here?
-- "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!"
Can we say *yawn*?
Ximian pops up looking like Outlook. The overall layout looks like Windows. Ad nauseum. Once again, someone is scraping together a Linux distro, trying to make it look like Windows, and giving us absolutely jack in terms of innovation, *better* usability, or creativity. Trying to accomodate Windows users by giving them a similar interface, but branding it Linux, is just plain foolish.
Make a product that's better than Windows on *all* counts, is bundled with custom-written applications instead of tweaked versions of existing ones, and then i'll raise an eyebrow.
I don't think Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but let's acknowledge the faults of the alternatives. There are dozens upon dozens of Linux distributions, and so far, i've seen virtually *nothing* worth noting from an interface perspective. We brand everything as being intended for this and that audience, this and that purpose, whatever emphasis..but with the exception of some underlying framework, isn't this just a essentially a rehash of what dozens have done before?
I'm sure this will get more than few people stepping up to proclaim the vast differences between their distro of choice, but please save it. "Debian uses apt!", "Gentoo uses portage and is intended for..!" meh. They're both Linux, they both lend the capacity to do whatever the hell you want, and they can both be made to run the exact same applications...which, really, is what the average end user cares about, above all.
The average user is going to take one look at this stuff and go, "Ok, so if it looks like Windows, but doesn't run all the apps I need, why bother?"
How XP can even be mentioned in a way that suggets it's even in the same usability tier as OS X? People who use OS X, love OS X. People who use XP, absolutly hate XP. Not to mention XP has that wonderus task based system where it takes, by my count last time I used a PC, 5 steps to even be able to see your files. It takes 1 on OS X, and I don't have to dig through system control panels to do it. Look, maybe this is a bit flamey, but more than anything it's true. OS X is, by far, the easiest, most powerful OS I have ever personally used. A open sourced, Unix core, no known viruses that are not for a Microsoft program, and just ease and intuitive of use. I de-wormed 7 PCs during the last Windows worm outbreak, I last de-virused a Mac 4 years ago. That's a big usability point to me
But hey, so far as the story goes, I don't know if this will or won't even be around next year, especially given Sun's seemingly forever questionable financial status (I once owned Sun stock, I'm intensely familiar with this). All I do know is, one more alternative on the desktop is not a bad thing, especially when it is something basically brand new.
Request: ECM unit, 1000 km fullerene cable, 1 tactical nuclear weapon. Reason: Birthday party for foreign dignitary.
I was searching for the correct description of this article, you have provided it, thank you!
Note to slashdot editors: how about a special icon representing "spooge"? And can we vote stories into the "spooge" category? That'd be uncomplainingly spoogy cool!!
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Finally someone who knows something about Java.
From an article:
Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.
Obviously Sun is not "committed", but all in all, this bodes well for Linux: more desktop apps will be tested and developed specifically on Linux.
However, you can expect Sun to push the Linux solution for a while, utilizing the momentun Linux has (and Solaris doesn't), and as sudden "problems" with Linux appears, the don't really have motivation to fix the problems; rather, they suggest that the customers of their "Java Desktop" switch to Solaris-x86.
Also from the article, regarding the perception that Sun is being unethical in supporting SCO:
I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future--customers are.
So we don't matter, eh? The Open Source community are not your "customers"? Schwarz misses part of the point, in that techies are their customers, and quite a lot of techies are very Linux-sympathetic these days. Arrogance doesn't help anyone, either.
I dunno, but Schwarz comes out as quite an asshole in that article, and I can't really tell whether I wish Sun a great success with Mad Hatter. It is good for Linux and Open Standards and all, but Sun has the wrong attitude about the whole thing. They would do well to play a "nice guy" for a while (like they do/did with Open Office), it might occasionally pay off.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Here's a *real* java desktop, free. Looks cool
http://www.jdistro.com/
Gee, I hope it runs real slow.
-C++ Troll
It's disgraceful that people don't check they facts very labeling information propaganda.
Meanwhile, Sun sends millions of dollars in "license money" to SCO, and keeps spreading FUD about Linux to promote its own OS offering, Solaris.
True. But this is business kid. It's not black and white, good versus evil. Sun has a competing operating system that they've spent a lot of money in developing. They aren't going to concede the market without a fight. That's logical and to be expected.
Even Sun's own employees know that Java is a piece of crap,...
internalmemos.com? Your proof is from internalmemos.com? I take it you also read the Enquirer and Weekly World News to stay informed, don't you?
Yes, Java can be used for server applications (a claim which Java proponents ridiculuously uphold to demonstrate that Java is good technology -- if it couldn't, it would be quite useless, wouldn't it?), but so can Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby,....
This argument right here tells me you don't really know much about professional web application development.
J2EE is one of the biggest things pulling linux into the mid to large webapp/middleware market! Unfortunately, we don't have an application server that quite matches J2EE application servers in OS; except OS/J2EE based servers, of course. I wish people would try to write a few decent sized web applications before they decided that *they-favorite-language* was good enough for everyone.
Sun has partially funded Tomcat development for a while, also making tomcat the reference implementation for JSP. Those programming languages you mentioned are scripting languages, not web application servers. They don't provide much of the functionality true web application servers eg. Tomcat, JBoss, etc provide.
Sun bought StarOffice and released it as OpenOffice. Sun continues to fund OO/SO development. Sun put much needed people on the GNOME usuability project. Sun has been marketing Gnome to its customers, exposing it to thousands of conservative businesses who would never have looked at it otherwise. And Sun have probably done a lot more I can't remember right now.
The world is not separated clearly between good and evil. Get over it.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
"My documents" ? "Network places" ? "My Computer" ? the taskbar ? the start button ? Either Microsoft got it right and we should all admit it or we should stop copying Microsoft because it sucks (what a dichotomy for Microsoft haters, such as Sun!!! from one side they are against Microsoft, from the other they copy Microsoft!!!)
By the way, Java is free. Why the Java Desktop is not free ? this is Linux, for Christ's sake.
I came to this article after reading what Sun think of Linux in this story. Really puts this marketing bullshit into perspective for me.
KDE, Gnome and now the SLOW CPU sucking sound desktop from Javaland!
Cool!
It's Java.. it's got to be slow.. Who makes desktops using Java anyways.. that's freaking stupid! They should use a native language.. Why didn't they just use C and gtk/2.
Admit it.. Java's not the best thing to run a desktop enviorment.
I'd prefer if Sun spent more time making nice gtk1/2 apps instead of craps like java.
Sun is still hawking their "thin clients" model, just replacing proprietary hardware that no-one bought with commodity hardware that everyone is supposed to have (and a certain OS for i386 machines that (only?) Sun is entitled to use without fear of lawsuits, sez SCO...)
So, What's the real deal? Sun wants to capture the corporate desktop to keep their rapidly declining server business alive (Fat chance...). To reach that goal, they are now trying to "Embrace and Extend" Linux, even to the extreme of actively supporting SCO.
I dont think it's going to work. Sun should just crawl off to where the other dinosaurs went.
I can't help but think this will need seriously large amounts of RAM/CPU to get it running well. Can't find anything on the sun site though
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
IT could be worse. I've seen shots where companies are writing confidential letters to customers. Now that is just stupidity
The buddie list could be seen as an honest mistake
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
From the site:
Pricing
Q. How much does Java Desktop System sell for?
A.There are two available pricing options for Java Desktop System:
$100 / desktop / year. An OEM volume tier pricing schedule is also available.
$50 / employee / year for Sun Java Enterprise System customers.
So.. explain why anyone should spend silly amounts of money replacing the existing Windows and OSX machines just to have the honour of renting an OS which does almost exactly the same thing from Sun?
Of course it's not. And I trust that you apply the same standards to Microsoft. But if you want to stop bad behavior from occurring, you should not support companies that practice it. Simple as this: By supporting Sun, you support SCO's battle against Linux. If you give them money, chances are that some of it goes directly into SCO's pockets. If you use their technology, you indirectly contribute to their bottom line.
Your proof is from internalmemos.com?
The authenticity of this memo has been well established and never denied by Sun.
This argument right here tells me you don't really know much about professional web application development.
I am well aware of the fact that Java is considered the development platform of choice for most ebusiness applications these days. So what? Most businesses still use Windows even though they together could save billions by switching to OSS on client and server and contributing to open source development. You yourself cite "conservative" companies, so don't act as if a company using a specific technology automatically validated said technology.
I wish people would try to write a few decent sized web applications
You mean like Slashdot, which is larger than 90% of these "professional applications", more reliable than your shitty JSP websites and hacked together by a few kids in Perl? The very site you are using would never have been possible in Java, because it never would have scaled to its present usage on the handful of low-end servers it is based on. Slashdot is a real-word application with impressive scalability and minimal implementation cost; this bullshit distinction between "professional" and non-professional application is nothing but close-minded "I get my paycheck for coding Java, so it's better" type thinking. How much have you done with Perl? How much have you done with Python? Have you even looked at Apache's powerful mod_perl 2.0 and CPAN's archive of modules for virtually anything you might ever need, updated every day by programmers from around the world and free to use? Have you looked at Perldoc, Perl-based object-oriented programming, Perl XML implementations ranging from XML::Simple to SAX and DOM parsers and so forth?
Sun bought StarOffice and released it as OpenOffice.
Because they see Microsoft as their arch-enemy and would love to be Microsoft. Once they have a significant market position with OpenOffice, they will cease supporting the open source version and make improvements available in the commercially marketed StarOffice only.
Sun put much needed people on the GNOME usuability project. Sun has been marketing Gnome to its customers
Because CDE, their own desktop environment, is such a piece of crap that anyone who spends more than 5 minutes with it leaves the room screaming or becomes clinically insane. Much like vi, really.
Any desktop which requires the user to use more than one mouse button obviously can't be all that great. ;-)
I don't really see anything new to this desktop. It's just Gnome cleaned up (the way many of us admins already have it for our users) with the ability to launch Java programs (which we can do anyway last timeI checked)? I didn't really see anything else described. I have no problem with Sun selling this (except for the stupid name).. it'll be good that someone finally figured out not to default with a stupid number of menu options and so forth.. but is there anything really news worthy? It sounds okay for normal users but I'm glad I don't have to use it. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
> The world is not separated clearly between good and
> evil. Get over it.
wrong. as of now SUN and IBM are not clearly good or evil, while SCO and MS are clearly evil.
we simply have to take the good that come from them, and fight the rest.
is a dead link.
Massive by Design
With enough effort/resources you can make *any* language and runtime scale. The issue is how much help does the language and runtime give you.
Slashdot probably uses common language independent algorithms to get it to perform well under such load. For example, generating static pages from dynamic data at short intervals and serving those instead, can be done in any language. Heck you can accomplish that using bourne shell script and SHTML.
If Slashdot used JSP or ASP.NET they'd be able to significantly decrease the load on their MySQL database. It's a feature of web applications written using Perl, PHP, on non application-server runtimes. They rely heavily on databases for persistance, thus driving up the cost of deployment. And their performance suffers as well.
Web Apps built on application servers usually scale better than those built on scripts; As far as I've seen.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
J2EE is one of the biggest things pulling linux into the mid to large webapp/middleware market!
And what's the point of that? Most stuff in the Java/J2EE context is proprietary software.
Java is ok, but I don't like Sun. Given that together with MS they help funding SCO's attacks on GNU/Linux, they're only a little less evil than MS. However, it's good news for GNU/Linux that MS gets serious competition. That makes it harder for them to extract a monopoly rent from the still strong market position, and it makes it much harder for them to shape the future of the IT world according to their desires.
I dont get it, why should I use it ? its just linux with Gnome. I get the update and patches faster when I compile the stuff myselve. And what will happen when XIMIAN/NOVEL change there Evolution Licence ?
Me Dont think the world is waiting for this.
And we all know that Slashdot has infinite resources at its disposal. Look, this site has been hacked together by a few geeks in their spare time. It scales well not because of the amount of effort and resources invested in its deployment, but because the platform is simply lightning fast -- there are no unnecessary libraries and APIs, instead, the webserver API is accessed directly using mod_perl. Database access is nevertheless not tied to a specific DB -- without any effort whatsoever, Perl DBI provides a transparent and fast interface to a large number of DBs.
For example, generating static pages from dynamic data at short intervals and serving those instead,
In Slashcode, old pages are archived. New ones are generated dynamically. This is necessary because of the rate of modifications.
If Slashdot used JSP or ASP.NET they'd be able to significantly decrease the load on their MySQL database
Not only is this statement unsupported, it is also irrelevant. According to the FAQ, Slashdot uses a single MySQL server and 8 webservers. This shows clearly where the major load is.
And their performance suffers as well.
Also an unsupported statement. I and many other people I know use Slashdot to check their connection speed because it is almost always highly responsive.
The above post is an ignorant Troll. "Java" is the brand name. The desktop is SuSE Linux 8.2 with GNOME and StarOffice. However, it is fashionable to troll Sun nowadays because we all hate them because IBM rulez. People have short memories around here.
It has been 2 years since I have done Java, but Sun use to treat it as a poor step-child. From what I have heard from my java friends, elsewhere it still is. So does that mean that sun has finally taken the effort to optimize Java on Linux? Does that mean that Java apps will run as fast on Linux as it does on MS or Solaris?
When will Sun release it so that servers can run as well using the Sun engine (as opposed to IBM's).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
really nice - still pretty buggy (could not figure out how to install a jsh) - but very impressive anyway.
Just by looking at those pointless desktop Icons and the crappy windowframes I get physically sick. Oh, yes, I'm just sooo sick of it all!
When in Gods name will people learn that if you want to be usable thou shalt NOT ape windows. For heavens sake!
And the guy who wrote the review doesn't seem to know squat about usability if he goes about mentioning XP and OS X in the same sentence.
The Java Desktop might be the most consitent one on Linux (I seriously doubt it thoug) but it shure as hell is NOT usable by modern standards those of which are NOT defined by MS but by people like the Enlightenment, Fluxbox or - when not aping crappy windows themselves - the KDE Application team.
Don't get me wrong - Java is cool and a speedy Java GUI enviroment that blends into your Destop is even cooler - see OS X for what I mean. But this thing is a lame 'me too' excuse of a *nix Desktop.
And this raving article about it all has so much bias it literally stinks.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
But many of us are their damn OSS developers!
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
And Slashdot gets Slashdotted every day without crashing.
For something as complex as a desktop OS, it's virtually impossible to have "usability" without usage, and to-date this OS has no users to speak of.
Show me even a meager 500,000 users who consider the usability of this to be on par with WinXP or MacOSX and then you'll have a story. Otherwise this is just PRWire disguised as a lab study.
It's very good to see Sun launch a a Linux distribution that won't make repel adults in horror, but Gulker perpetuates at least one of the abiding and unfortunate errors of many Linux supporters.
Contrary to the linkage made by the review, ease of use is not synonymous with "dumbing down". Ease of use does not mean hiding capabilities. It simply means what it says: easy to use.
Example: Creating a "Documents" directory and suggesting users sore all their documents there makes a system easier to use. Nothing frces a user to do that; no capability is lost. If a user wants to track through the file system and store files in other locations, nothing prevents that. A "Documents" directory is based on the same principle as the "etc" and "home" directories. Both provide a suggested place to store files that share certain characteristics. If using a "Documents" directory is for dummies, why don't we see smart admins storing configuration files all over the file system? Surely, anyone smart enough to use Unix doesn't need help finding files?
Other examples exist, but the perpetuation of the bogus ease of use/dumbing down linkage remains an ugly theme of the Linux community.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I reckon they've adding Java into the name to help promote Java technology.
I'm sure there is a Java runtime in there, but that's no different to many other Linux systems.
IMO, Java on the desktop is not very good. I see no reason why someone should code apps in java, with the exception perhaps of the great web app, when the the free Qt toolkit and the much more mature and robust C++ exists.
Multi-platform support (*nix, windows, embedded,mac), native GUI, networking, threads, you name it QT almost has it all. In fact I don't see any advantage in using these semi-interpreted languages (including m$ C#) to the native C++/QT combo. Garbage collection? I find creating objects with QObject parents so convenient! No more leaks. Write once run anywhere? QT does that with a simple recompile from a single source. Please enlighten me if I have missed something. But right now you have to pry C++ from my cold dead hands to make me switch over. C++ plus QT is C++ on steroids.
Disclaimer I don't work for Trolltech. I just happen to find QT so damn nice!
Wow, an IT guy who pretends to understand what his users need! A desktop that works! Whooo!
And in other news, the Ford Focus now rivals the Chev Cavalier for speed.
Next reporter, please...
Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...
From what I see slashdot is nothing more than a news server. Yes it does very simple writes, but mostly reads from a database. Yes it does maintain state for a user, but it is a VERY simple application. It behaves the same way (with preferences) for every user. It also has some significant hardware behind it. I would be willing to bet that 90+% of Slashdot is reads from a DB. That fits perfectly with MySQL, again this is not indicitive of most businiess web apps. You mentioned 8 web servers.
I would like to know the people that check their connection speed with slashdot, because it's performance varies greatly throughout the day, and they should be informed that there are far better ways to test their connection speed.
Back to the original posted comment.....
Sun has given a lot to the open source community. They have continued to develop OpenOffice, GNOME and other packages. I see this as a huge win for open-source fans. Lets say sun somehow gets 5-15% marketshare for this product. It will then make other 3rd party developers start developing drivers and applications for their crap to work with Linux. Then people like me could more easily suggest that we replace some of our business with an open source model.
I could see call centers loving this type of product. Specifically Cendant call centers.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
And this addresses NEITHER ONE OF THEM.
It's not open enough for techies and it's too wierd for the rest of the market.
This seems pretty pointless. Who financed it?
The article doesn't mention printing. Any idea whether this thing has a viable printing system; i.e., not just to lpt1 but network queue printing and IP printing? You can make the prettiest OS in the world, but one thing people can't stand is struggling to get stuff printed.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
I find it odd that few of the tech press have picked up on it, and even fewer people have taken notice of the consistently good reviews it gets for this type of application, but Xandros Linux has *already done* what Sun is trying to do, and they have had their product out for 10 months now.
If you are a intermediate/advanced Linux user, Xandros probably won't interest you for personal use, but as a way to get win refugees started, it beats every other distro hands down (including the perennial favorite "newbie" distro, 'Drake). The sole purpose of the distro is to make win refugees be able to get using Linux with the least amount of pain and adaptation possible.
Xandros V.1 is Debian Woody based, uses older software libs, desktop uses KDE2.2, has *excellent* networking abilities with win shares and other b0xen (using the proprietary Xandros File Manager (XFM)), and has a simplified "Start" menu with 1 "best of breed" app for each task a user may need to perform. Hardware recognition on install is great, it picked up my hotplugged Archos MP3 player, Canon camera, USB mouse, etc etc with no problems post-install. It is intended for the "enterprise desktop", with stability being a prime requisite for any software which comes with the distro. Xandros V.2 (based on much newer software) is in beta testing right now. Individual prices - The "Deluxe" version (US$99) comes bundled with CrossOver Office and PlugIns, so that no msOffice or browser functionality is lost in the switch to Linux. The "Standard" version, without the costly CrossOver software, is US$40.
So, if you can't or don't want to wait for the Java desktop to be ready, try the Linux desktop that is already doing what Sun is hoping to do.
I don't work for Xandros, I do want to see them succeed - they understand what is needed to help migrate people to Linux.
It looks like Sun knows that too, they're just late to the game, IMO.
Question:
Has anyone here tried the new Gnome 2.4 with Sun's Java Desktop System ?
The review is about JDS with Gnome 2.2 and I want to know how it feels with Gnome 2.4
Can anyone help out, please ?
Thank you !
The most interesting thing to me is this passage that I found here:
I suppose that means that Sun has written a Swing Look & Feel for GNOME, but I can't find anything about it. Does anyone have more information?
Blog Ho
Well... seeing how most actual users are familiar with the Windows type GUI, trying to replicate that seems like a good idea if you're trying to get those actual users to use it.
Usability isn't necessarily the same thing as Best Super Duper Ever.
As evil as MS is, they do sell the products that people are most familiar with and actually use. If you can build a better mousetrap, knock yourself out.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
You claim that multisession CDs are insanely complex on OSX, and cite an article to prove this. Well, I read the article (rare for a /.'er, I know, but I did it anyway). If you find that insanely complex, then I can't imagine how you've ever burned a CD on any system. The instructions read:
1 Get stuff.
2 burn on CD.
3 repeat 1-2 remembering to check the "allow multiple burn box" (ie remember to check the "allow multisession" box).
4 Press a button to finish.
That didn't look too hard, much less ``insanely complex'',
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Sun, you can keep your Java Desktop. I want Looking Glass.
it's written entirely in Java, then it will be blazing fast.
Tomcat is not an application server. It is a servlet container. WebSphere, JBoss and WebLogic are application servers.
-Slonob
Strict obedience to the law is the key to liberty.
I went through the article and pulled out the various criteria that the desktop was under and list them below:
Pleasant looking at launch
Documents folder in the user's home directory
Opened with a view of all data repositories
Theme pervasive
Star Office 7
Unfortunately, the review was based largely on cosmetic appearances. Though important, they will certainly not cut it for an enterprise roll-out.
The one functionality related comment is on Star Office 7. Though the OOo team has done some great work, and I think it is a fantastic suite for home users, I do not believe that Star Office (or OOo) are ready to repalace MS Office in the work place any time soon. Why? Just a few reasons: file compatibility, macros, driver support, presentation tool, etc. etc.
Furthermore, there are several key feature sets that the article ignores that are critical for an enterprise desktop rollout:
---Networking - can this thing jump onto the company's windows network plug and play or do you have to go learn Samba3?
---Application Compatibility - the company will likely have legacy or windows apps they need to run. Does Sun desktop do anything for them?
---Mail server - I know they are using Gnome, but does Sun have any deal with Novell (current home of Ximian) to let it talk to Exchange?
---Installer - Did he try to install it? If you are going to have to put it on 2000 desktops at a company, I hope that works very very well.
---Distribution - What distribution is this residing on. This could make a huge difference in how well the thing works. Red Hat and dependancy hell? No thanks.
I think if you take a look around, Xandros probably has by far the best desktop for corporate use. It solve all of the above issues and is tremendously easy to use. You could also check out Suse, though I think it will be lacking in a few areas.
I want to see MS come down, but this brief write up doesn't have me convinced the Sun Desktop herlds in a new era...
Hunger is the best sauce.
Are parts of it GPL?
Is Sun compliant with all terms of the license?
So what happens when you get on a plane? Do your docs dissapear? Is there automatic synchronization? Doubtful.
From what I've read so far on Sun's site, you're better off with WinXP or MacOS - at least your computer is useful WITHOUT the network.
The question really should be "Why C++". C++'s evil memory pointer borrowed from C should be banished! It has no place in modern languages.
:-)
I agree that Java isn't the saviour (missing multiple inheritance). But, to make C++ be the end-all seems a bit over the top.
Now, if you want a REAL language, let's talk about PERL...
To Copy from One is Plagiarism; To Copy from Many is Research.
Calling this thing a "Java desktop" is rather deceptive. Sun took the Gnome desktop, bundled it with a Java runtime and JavaCard authentication, made some cosmetic changes, and then just called it a "Java desktop". Pretty much all the applications, all the policy decisions, all the behavior, and all the functionality are Gnome's. If this is a "great desktop", then so must Gnome be.
In seven years, Java desktop application use is virtually non-existent. Sun has already tried and failed to create and establish a Java-based desktop with Java applications. So, what do they do? They take a successful open source desktop written mostly in C and C++ and call it a "Java desktop". I think that speaks volumes about the suitability of Sun Java and Swing for writing desktop applications and about how desparate Sun is getting. I think it also shows a disrespect Sun has for open source, despite a veneer of support and opportunistic open source licensing of some of their products (mostly in an attempt to harm competitors or to prop up bad Sun standards).
From a practical point of view, this won't matter. Basically, what this really says is that Sun is replacing CDE and OpenWindows with Gnome on their machines, and that they are shipping Java along with it (surprise). Sun had already announced that they were going to do that.
What will be really interesting is whether Sun will start shipping Mono with that, since it looks increasingly likely that at least some Gnome applications will be written in Mono (just like some Gnome applications are written in Python, Perl, and C++).
what the hell am I doing there?
If that's an enlarged screenshot ... fear the original size.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
As with other linux distros, I assume there will be a free version available? How different will it be?
I read about this a while ago and at first thought Sun had gone the whole hog and turned out something like jDistro i.e. a completely Java based desktop environment, but then discovered it was YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro) albeit a clean one, from the same company that bashes Linux one day because they're pissed that it's taking customers away from the hallowed Solaris, and pushing it like crazy the next in an attempt to actually market StarOffice and grab a piece of the Linux pie.
The distro, because this is what it is, will certainly gather a few customers that want 24/7 desktop support and don't mind paying for it, but they're going to have an uphill battle against established players like RedHat and SuSE in the enterprise and Debian and Gentoo in the small space. There really isn't much room for YALD these days.
Sun would almost assuredly have preferred to have done all this on Solaris, but no one is interested anymore, given Sun's haphazard moves in Solarisx86 and the increasing popularity of Linux in governments and large businesses.
What is Sun's problem? Easy, they make excellent servers and a robust stable OS, but their pricing and their totally insane one day on next day off commitment to TotD (Trend of the Day) and comments by no less than McNealy and co. only serve to make potential customers even more wary. i.e. no clear long term goals!
What could Sun have done instead of this YALD? They should have taken an intelligent risk a while ago and comitted to making Linux robust, fast and scalable on their own good quality hardware. This is the route that IBM has gone and it is paying off bigtime for IBM. They should have realised that proprietry *nixes in the server room are on the way out, due to costs alone (OS, propritry support and application porting costs)
Instead Sun's McNealy likes to think like SCO's McBride one day (All your IP are belong to us) and like Steve Jobs the next (My desktop is better than yours)
What he hasn't noticed is that Apple has taken a very consistent long term approach to establishing OSX and Apple hardware as popular amongst consumers and design pros first and slowly amongst enterprise CEOs, CIOs etc second (Hey, WTF, Oracle runs on that snappy XServe?) with the byproduct of being immensely popular amongst *nix Sysadmins (The number of Linux and Solaris Sysadmins running around with Powerbooks and iBooks is amazing).
As for this YALD being more usable than WindowsXP, this must be a joke, right? Windows and Microsoft have a terrible security record and a bad image as wife and market abusers, but they have a huge marketshare, almost all of the desktop applications and an acceptable and responsive Desktop UI. For all its problems Windows is here to stay for a long time (and copy-paste actually works)
Sun should stick to what it does best, and avoid running off into uncharted waters every second day.
From the article:
>> Java Desktop System could be dropped into most non-technical enterprises in places where general productivity was the mission,
What he misses (like nearly all of the Linux On The Corporate Desktop advocates) is that nearly every small business uses some sort of vertical-market application as their central IS system. There are packages for real estate agents, beverage wholesalers, dental offices, auto repair shops, property management, and for practically every other business you can think of. And nearly all of them run on Windows.
Every small business I've ever worked with uses something like this, and that's always the obstacle to having such companies even consider Linux.
Perhaps as more of these are moved to an HTTP-based architecture, the doors will open for Linux on the business desktop, but until then, the real lock-in isn't MS Office but the zillions of vertical-market apps that run on Windows.
I take it you also read the Enquirer and Weekly World News to stay informed, don't you?
Well, he reads Slashdot...
Since the link on the Sun website does not work.
e sk topsystem/images/72.jpg
I included the good link for the BIG picture. Well big..!!??!
http://sdc.sun.com/partners/sunjavasystem/javad
Screenshot
until you want to run Peachtree or a real Office suite, and since Java is such a pig, I can't believe performance is worht a damn on anything but beefy hardware. Another Sun bomb on deck.
it's actually easier under linux... select some text, then middle click or click both mouse buttons (if you lack a third button or wheel)
I've witnessed similar situations myself. In fact, just a couple weeks ago, I visited an elementary school that's still using old (pre PowerPC) Macs in all of the classrooms. They've gotten by for at least 7 or 8 years now with the same Mac hardware and *no* full-time I.T. guy at all.
They have a "technology department", but it doesn't appear to consist of much more than a storage area for all the spare/unused computer stuff, and a teacher who volunteered to operate it when he's not teaching other classes.
The only problem they're running up against now is some of the old systems finally dying (mostly hard drives wearing out). Nobody there knows how to fix them, so they throw away everything that breaks and juggle the remaining systems around. (Basically, teachers not using their computer in the room anyway give it up for someone who does use one.)
Obviously, they're sorely in need of some more funding for new machines.... but it's amazing they've gotten by so well with basically *zero* I.T. support. Teachers simply work together to solve any problems that come up, make sure things are installed and configured the way they need them, etc.
I think reality is, if you don't place a lot of restrictions on what people "can and can't do" with the machines - you'll find that folks generally find ways to make and keep everything working in a manner that suits them best. I generally see large I.T. staffs spending the vast majority of their time dictating what they think the users need, and constructing complex environments to support these plans of theirs. (That, or policing things, fretting over software license compliance, updating inventory sheets of hardware, etc.)
They are charging That much for it too.. That's rediculous.. The only "commercial" products in it are Java which they give away for free, and the sun one connector... Pricing FAQ
Also...what do people do when they have to browse an IE only web site? I know...web sites SHOULD be standards compliant, but fact is they're not.
They should contact Sun to find out why that web page doesn't work in their environment. After all, this is a supported product. If there is a business need that can justify this complaint, opening a ticket for this problem will start the chain of events needed to fix this problem.
Sun then has the same problem that the Mozilla Evangelism team has to deal with - convincing the site in question that they can still make IE users happy while allowing everyone access to the information. Now that Sun is reliant on the Mozilla project for its browser, Sun now has a vested interest in ensuring that all companies who are likely to be supplying web pages accessed by the Java DS users are abiding by the web standards. In the long run, this should lead to more and more sites realising that obeying the standards is actually in their interest.
To be honest, I've never understood why ActiveX controls in a browser was necessary. I suspect it was done primarly to support Windows Update and help tie IE down as a critical part of the Windows desktop that can't be removed. Having said that, my dual boot RH8.0/ Win2k laptop generally only visits microsoft.com to download the latest service pack and critical fixes. That I download those fixes in Linux and then apply them to the Win2k side when my laptop is disconnected from the network just goes to prove that even that tying of OS function to web activities isn't needed.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Konqueror will go to a url by middle clicking in a html windows. If you need to paste the url and modify it, there is a button (black) looking something like X> before the location bar which clears it, then middle click in the location bar. If other browsers fail to do this then that is a usability issue and should be repored (IMO) as a bug.
87 messages discussing how to copy and paste.
Oh yeah, Linux is ready to take over the world.
Visual Studio .NET is not a good example of a product with .NET tacked on for marketing reasons. It is, after all, the primary development environment offered by Microsoft for building .NET applications.
.NET Server. There may have been some betas under that name, but no released products.
And there is no such thing as Windows
But I would agree, the "JAVA" does seem to be tacked on.
Maybe this is what Sun is positioning this desktop for: future versions fo the JVM might have this ability.
while we're at it, a lightweight servlet engine for lightweight desktop web applications would be quite nice too.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I second that sentiment. That's all I think about at night... i never beat the game because I keep beating off when she's on screen.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Some screen shots from Sun's site.
1. The "X clipboard" that most people are talking about is NOT the "clipboard" from Windows. It is DRAG & DROP!!!! With the huge advantage that you can move windows around, raise and lower them, and close them, before you drop. Basically selecting something is the start of a drag, and clicking the middle mouse button is a drop. It is EXACTLY the same (the normal complaint that you can't select the text to replace? Try doing the same action in Windows using drag & drop) Therefore X invented drag & drop first, something Microsofties are loath to admit.
X's problem is that they failed to provide any kind of clipboard, thinking this drag & drop was sufficient. This led a lot of idiots to thinking the drag & drop WAS the clipboard, and stupid things like adding cut & copy actions modify the currently dragged item. When people started doing this correctly (all Gnome and KDE and most other toolkit based programs do) by putting the clipboard into a different buffer, people then complained about that (look at one of the other letters who said exactly this, apparently that person is too stupid to realize that if Ctrl+X modified the selected text, then selecting text would also modify the Ctrl+X text and thus completely defeat the purpose of the clipboard).
Microsoft is 100% to blame for the fact that some programs use Alt and some use Ctrl for the shortcuts. When the GUI programs were being developed, they copied the Mac. Now LOOK at a Mac, and check where the Command key is. Nobody in their right mind would use any key other than Alt to emulate that. But Microsoft is not in their right mind. Almost all MSDOS programs and most early Windows programs were "inconsistent" too and used Alt instead of the Microsoft standard of Ctrl.
If you discount old character-terminal programs like Emacs and VI (which both incidentally run on Windows and are just as "inconsistent" there) then I have never seen an X program that uses anything other than Ctrl+XCV or Alt+XCV for cut & copy & paste. There are however a lot of programs that mess with the drag & drop buffer instead of the clipboard for these actions, so I guess there are 4 arrangments.
As for data other than Text, well here Microsoft is doing a lot better. Interestingly enough, both X and Windows have almost identical mechanisms for sending data other than text (lists of atoms identifying what types are available, and the dropped-on program chooses the type to get, and the called program converts to that type). Where Microsoft was smart and X was idiots is that Microsoft ASSIGNED some symbols, such as one for a BMP image. Stupid X consortium thought these assignments would be worked out by users and so now all X has is about a dozen ways to identify text and nothing else. Fortunatly it looks like the whole idea is going to be scrapped on both systems, to a system by which the dragged data is either plain text, or a URL identifying where the data is stored. This has the huge advantage that programs can reuse code that reads/writes files to interpret the dropped data, and programs that cannot understand the URL can easily run other programs that do. Because of this massive change it may be possible for X to catch up.
So it is a polished gnome, that has been renamed and has a 'big' company behind it and suddenly it is all tops and ready to replace XP and all the problems that were there ever before with a gnome desktop have suddenly disappeared. Ximian is no good because 'it did not show windows shares as well'.
I can't believe it, this review is worthless beyond anything in existence.
I'm all for the Linux Desktop, I even pay for my XD2. but this review is just stupied.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
I finally decided that I couldn't deal with windows anymore, so I dumped it and installed linux. So far it's been a learning experience, mostly positive although I did have an experience that I thought I should share with the community.
I'd long been aware of the issues of resolving dependencies when installing/compiling new software. When I tried to download and compile mplayer, I got it to configure just fine, but when I went to compile it, the compile failed. My assumption was that it was a missing library or something like that. As a result, I didn't bother to actually read the error that came out on the screen- after all, it had to be a user error, right? Once I finally learned that there was log I could look through to see what had happened, I saw that there was, indeed a missing file, but it wasn't a library or something that I had to install. When I looked in the specified path, I saw, that indeed, the file was missing. At that moment, I was able to learn the difference between a bug and user error! It dawned on me that maybe it wasn't my fault that the software wouldnt' compile.
The point of all this is that there should be a newbie guide to help all of us noobs be able to tell when we've made a mistake and when it is, in fact, a bug. If someone wants to create such a document with me, I think it would be great. Email me if you're interested in doing something like this at deschust@syr.edu. thanks
--- Don't ever trust a woman until she's dead- B.B. King
I'm sorry, but I use that kind of copy-n-paste, drag-n-drop "innovations" every day in KDE. This is one of the *main* reasons I use KDE on my desktop, because the KDE apps work together so well.
Granted, it does not work so well from a KDE app to, say, some independant GTK app, and vice-versa. KDE does *not* feel kludgy to me, and I've used just about every damn Desktop/Window Manager that you can possible get and compile for Linux, as well as SGI's 4DWM on the old Irix machine that sits on my desk.
All it would take is for the KDE folks and the GNOME folks to sit down and implement a shared C-n-P and D-N-D functionality, which if I remember correctly, might actually be happening.
So, to sum it up, I think a Linux desktop *is* ready to tackle any other OS out there, if it is a unified desktop. If you built it from ad hoc pieces, then I would agree with you. I just don't see any major distro doing that though.
Typical Linux Geek thinking ease-of-use = dumbing down and that a good interface means pretty icons.
/usr/share, /usr/bin, and crap like that, or are applications put in a folder called Programs?
Ease of use means making the computer work the way PEOPLE think, not forcing people to work the way COMPUTERS think.
Linux geeks and other developers, who have been conditioned to think like the computer because of the work they do, have the mistaken notion that advanced computer user means a user who has learned to force the natural human way of doing things into the artificial machine way a computer does things.
Any interface that doesn't force this paradigm is "dumbed down."
The truth is, the Linux geek has simply been conditioned to do things the difficult way, not the natural way. Designing the interface to do things the natural way is not dumbing it down, it's making the Linux Geek's paradigm obsolete. Of course, the Linux Geek doesn't like this, so in a fit of human ego, he looks his nose down on anything that points out the stupidity of his position (working the way the computer demands; being the tool of the computer), and calls it "dumbing down."
The Sun Java Desktop follows this same, stupid convention.
The start menu is in the wrong place. In cultures that read left to right, top to bottom, the most important area of focus is always the upper left corner, followed by the upper right corner, then the lower right corner. The area of least importance, that takes the most conscious effort to locate, and feels the most unnatural, is the lower left corner. So guess where Sun, Windows, and other Linux copycats put the most important UI widget in the whole interface?
Next, the start menu is packed with long lists of applications in tons of different categories. To the Linux Geek, this is heaven, because it forces him to think like a computer. To a human, this is unnatural. The human mind works in small groups. The start menu should be sparse, with a few, general categories, containing a few applications. Lists should have no more than five items, with an option to dig deeper. You make the detail a conscious choice to the user, not throw it in his face. That's the Windows paradigm: Let's see how much crap we can throw on the screen because it proves our program is POWERFUL!!
And, finally, the reviewer totally ignores the most important UI elements for ease-of-use, which shows he doesn't get it...still.
Does the UI still use the web browser paradigm for file location? This is asinine. The web browser paradigm is based on pages of information. The folder/file structure of a hard drive is designed around a, well, folder, folder contents model. Using a page serving paradigm to locate items in a filing cabinet is stupid, and continuing to insist on it is asinine because it is unnatural, feels unnatural, and requires the user to expend too much effort to find what he wants.
What about configuring items in the start menu? How easy is it to add things? Remove things? No mention of this.
What about installing applications. Does the user have to deal with
What about account management? Can the GUI allow root commands for installing software the way OS X does, by authenticating in a dialog, or does the user have to think like a computer, and change his identity just to install a program?
This review can basically be summed up as: This is a cool desktop because, hey, it's got a cool look, all the apps follow that look, there's a documents folder on the desktop for morons who don't know any better, and the start menu is so full of crap, it's unusable.
Sorry, but Linux is STILL not ready for the desktop. Go back to OS X, study it again, find out that it's NOT Aqua and throbbing buttons that make it a great GUI, and try again.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
No, I'll tell you what you really really don't want! A whole network of computers that can't be changed by anyone, but someone with "Autorization". So I'm going to college studying to be a computer science major, and some IT guy at my college messes stuff up, doesn't install the software nessesary, and didn't even setup the dells correctly on the desk (the holes in the desk are for kb/mouse wires) (duh).
What do I do, I just sit there, because I don't have permission to fix it, and wait for someone else to come get it working right... or just mess it up again. Not only that, but my whole school's network was down for over a week with M$ viruses! They're running windows2000 pro on dells, and not doing anything exciting... still get hit hard, and nobody from dell or microsoft will do anything to help.
If the systems were open, with a linux based desktop, and a netfs share, with like 20mb for each user, you could logon, do your stuff, save your documents, etc. and they wouldn't have near the problems, and would save money (think x-terminals)...
Double standards are the problem, think of a solution that will work for everyone, or just use mine.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
I'm a PC user, and have been for many years. I haven't used Macs much at all, but the few recent times I have, I've been very pleased.
If I wanted to buy a powerful, stable system that I didn't have to spend much time tinkering with, it would be a Mac. The only reasons I have a PC running linux right now is because it's cheap and I like to tinker.
For the average desktop user now, I'd recommend the Mac. The only thing that you'll loose by getting a Mac is the convenience of being able to run all software made for windows. In exchange for this, you'll get pretty close compatability with other *nix flavors, which means you can benefit from the majority of open-source software out there.
If you have to choose between PC/Windows, MAC/OSX, definitely go with the latter.
-------
Incite and flee.
Interesting? Please... this troll isn't any different from the "I don't know what the big deal is about $OPERATING_SYSTEM, I've been waiting here for 30 minutes for it to copy a 17MB file..."
5 steps? Dig through system control panels? Clearly this post was modded up by people who either think it's a good troll or Windows-haters who've never actually USED Windows.
Fuck Sun.
They suck.
Those programming languages you mentioned are scripting languages, not web application servers.
And? So what? Give me PERL/CGI over WebSphere anyday. In fact, compiling code for an interpreter is laughable. Java should be a scripting language. Compiling millions of lines of Java is such a joke it is no longer realistic with Makefiles. You have to use ANT which doesn't support any other platform. The benefits of a scripting langauge far outweigh the benefits of byte code in my opinion. My experience with the WebSphere is that the web application claims over CGI are exaggerated especially with regards to performance. Furhtermore, the expenses of porting from WebSphere 2.0, 3.0 to 4.0 are far greater than any other C porting expense I've had to date. Java may be write once, run anywhere, but Java/XML/JSP/XSL/XSLT code written for application servers is not. The switch to EAR, WAR and J2EE was expensive with no discernable payoff. Web application servers are a waste of time because the standards change so fast.
However, 1/2 million lines of C/CGI scripts written 7 years ago compile on Solaris, AIX, and Linux with only one person spending two-weeks porting code that is still run in production today. Because ANSI C is a mature standard it is far closer to "write once, run anywhere" than Java is if the authors of the C code know it needs to run on multiple platforms and stay within the ANSI C/ POSIX universe.
Well, at most (depending upon what components are tweaked) Sun only needs to provide modifiied source to those it distributes a modified binary.
And even if those receiving the modified source make it available publically (which under the GPL, for example, they can), Sun certainly isn't going to provide any support whatsoever for a system you have compiled yourself from the modified sources.
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
Then I clicked on the link to Sun's site, there was a link there for "see larger picture" of the Sun desktop, which gave me a red "x" popup.
Good luck Sun, I'm sure this will work out great for you [roll eyes].
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
Neither Sun's hardware nor software comes CLOSE to G5 with OS X. I just don't know why Sun is in business anymore. Linux sucks for a desktop too. Copy and paste don't work, that is hilarious. I remember trying Redhat and it was the worst OS I have ever used. The only cool thing was workspaces and mah jong. Right tool for the right job. That means a Mac in nearly every case if you look at it objectively. Even servers. (Xserve)
The big enemy is approaching
at full throttle.
According to the data. It is
identified as "Butsutekkai"
NO REFUGE
It's the little things that make a desktop that more usable - these are the defacto standards that linux desktop seems to ignore
The authenticity of this memo has been well established and never denied by Sun.
Yes, and it has also been pointed out that its authors generally write C or C++ code, and not Java. Did you really expect every employee of Sun to be all giddy about the blessings of Java? People can be set in their ways - I assume some Perl heads secretly hate the success of PHP as well.
The very site you are using would never have been possible in Java, because it never would have scaled to its present usage on the handful of low-end servers it is based on.
90% of Norway's online newspapers seem to think that Java scales well enough. Just because you know some fools who failed to write good apps after reading "Learing Java in 21 Days" doesn't mean others cannot.
In fact, since Java runs in native code 99% of the time it would probably run faster: Perl is good at string manipulation, not pushing data.
You seem to be a very defensive Perl zealot - does it really hurt so much that Java is successful?
CDE, their own desktop environment
The UNIX industry's you mean? Or do you consider it Sun's also when IBM and HP use it?
Much like vi, really.
That settles it, you're just a loony.
Open Source is developers developing software that they want to use, for themselves, and then releasing it for anyone to change and modify, including corporation.
nice try. its time whoever said that this thing even comes close to XP or OSX needs to lay off the smack.
Sun keeps trying to invent a Windows alternative. OpenWindows, CDE, JavaStation, SunRay, and various x86 emulators and coprocessors. And now this. Which will of course do much better than its predecessors. Oh well, maybe Sun's investors will finally realize that McNealy's obsessions impact the bottom line!
that you will not be using it. Ok, fine with me. Move along, nothing to see here.
Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.
It's called the command line. With the help
of script files (or Dos/Windows batch files)
you can have an interface which is far more
efficent and easier to use than any desktop enviroment.
It's far easier to type "ggl unix+help" to search
Google, than have to go through and click a
bunch of menus and icons.
Presumably, Sun will want all future business application development to be web-based with java-on-the-server. However, the reality is that no matter how superior the Java-on-the-server or any web-based architecture is, not all businesses can or will go with web or Java development. Sun will need to be sure that if a customer wishes to include an application that Sun allows for easy deployment and removal.
= 9J =
the enlarged screenshot can be seen here: http://sdc.sun.com/partners/sunjavasystem/javadesk topsystem/images/72.jpg
it's a broken link on the site.
Quote: "Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price."
Sun: "We Don't Believe Linux Plays a Role on the Server"
So, let me put it this way: FUCK SUN and their Java Desktop!
... but I hate RH's Gnome-based taskbar!
The "proper" name of Sun Linux is "Java Desktop System"
No, Sun Linux was a rebranded version of Red Hat. Java Desktop System is the proper name for Mad Hatter.
The development/high-end version of Java Desktop System (JDS) is called "Java Enterprise System".
No, Java Enterprise System is a bundle of server software which has nothing to do with JDS.
Your distinction between "desktop" and "distribution" is somewhat arbitrary; the Java Desktop System is a desktop which includes its own distribution, so it's both.
Would someone kindly answer the following question. Now that Sun has made this as a derivative of GPLed works, don't they have to publish their changes. Thus, all distros should benefit from this, right?
Any insight appreciated.
At least OSX looks different than windows. Why bother installing different that looks similar at a loss of productivity. I've used star office and open office and they are at least 8 years behind ms office in terms of functionality. Related to this blatant copy of microsoft's look in office, I'm surprized if there isn't some type of patent lawsuit filed against sun. After all, microsoft did spend millions in usability testing and research etc. How can it be legal for someone to come in and copy the result without paying something. People say it's better because it's free etc. But if people don't pay money for a microsoft upgrade, well then that's free too. Plus they'd probably need to wait about 10 years before the "free office" packages have all the features they have with their current version of office. I've used linux many times over the years and while it is great on the server end of things, I'll be extremely surprized if they ever grow beyond geek desktop penetration in north america.
In addition to fairly widespread programs like Limewire, there are a lot more Java/SWING/SWT programs creeping into the corperate world than you might think.
The Java desktop aspect is that they made sure that Java apps woll work well with othe programs, giving a good baseline for user expereince compared to XP and OSX where applications have a bit more standardized behaviour with respect to each other.
It's these kinds of nit-picky details that will realy propel Linux into widespread desktop use, regardless of who is doing the distro.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
in my windows desktop to the top right corner of my desktop - it took about 3 seconds. I took that long because I wasn't sure whether to use the left or right button. This isn't to say I love Billy Goats and his MSy software, but this is a pathetic whimper rather than a real criticism.
>>And Sun have probably done a lot more I can't remember right now.
:)
NFS is still my favourite thing to come out of Sun.
man tunefs | grep fish
The look-and-feel of a UI is meaningless--the usability of said UI is what counts. Don't believe me?
I only need two examples: OS X and the Web.
Consumers spend as much, if not more time interacting with Web site UI than they do the OS itself.
OS X is definitely not trying to be a Windows clone, and I would even venture to say that it is more than just casually known for its impressive UI.
If you hit the market with a Windows-lookalike for half the cost, you will end up being known as the cheapo Windows rip-off for suckers. *coughLindowscough*
Companies exist to MAKE MONEY.
That's tough to do these days in IT.
IBM is one that's figured out how integration services can be marketed.
But Sun is the leading edge of three [Sun, Oracle, Microsoft] significant IT companies that stand to lose out as their business becomes commoditized: OSS dictates that companies can only charge for value-added to the existing pile of FOSS. The existing pile keeps growing, to the benefit of users everywhere.
People can buy low-end UNIX servers with NIS, NFS using Linux and *BSD and a lot of other technology that Sun developed. This is great; it's akin to the kind of price reductions people are accustomed to getting in the area of hardware (CPU, memory, disk space, network BW). But it's tough for a company like Sun because it means they can't have a static business plan.
Next in line to face the music will be anyone that sells an SQL platform. Everyone will ask pointed questions about exactly how much they're paying for Oracle, MS SQL, IBM DB2 for what does not exist in MySQL or Postgres. Some functionality, performance, reliability, support and integration; but the answer to the question has changed over the past several years and it will keep changing.
Lastly, MS provides desktop productivity applications. They've felt less competition (their biggest competition has been their own old software) than the businesses that have had to compete in the low end UNIX server market and the to compete in the SQL server market. But people are constantly asking questions about how much they're paying for what they actually get and they'll feel heat unless they can convince the buyer that they offer genuine true value-added.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Sun confirms Java Desktop system will be open source. I just learned today from a Sun employee that the Java Desktop system will be open sourced and distributed as part of Gnome
At least in mozilla and the mozilla based browsers, you can load a url by pasting it (middle clicking) anywhere on an open page or empty tab.
WARNING: The so-called feature of Mozilla that you are espousing is actually a very old bug (#96972). It was never supposed to be there, and there has been a long-standing discussion about whether to remove it. Many people have filed bug reports and/or requested/voted that it be removed. However, the bug has just enough very vocal supporters among the hacker community to block its removal. Regardless of the debate, this "feature" is classified as a bug, so it is dangerous to just assume it will always be there, since it may one day be stripped out.
Of course, I am biased toward the pro-removal camp. As a software engineer and UI designer, I believe in strictly following specifications. If you want to know more about philosophical or UI design reasons for its removal, just read the pro-removal posts for bug 96972 on bugzilla.mozilla.org. Number 60 is particularly good.
On a more practical note, at work I have to fill out online time cards every two weeks, which involve me filling in lots of duplicate values into a HTML table of text fields. At least once every time, and if I am unlucky, more than once, I will accidentally middle click on the edge of the text field, rather than the field itself, and bam the browser sends me to some web page it interpreted from the numbers or letters I pasted. And when I go back, I will have lost everything I had filled in and have to start over. It occasionally happens to me when I am filling out other web forms as well. Actually, it just happened to me while I was searching for the bug number. Grrr. Needless to say, this bug has driven me crazy.
Don't get me wrong, if Mozilla/Firebird made an icon target for the toolbar, on which you could paste a URL to have it open in [choose one: current window, new window, new tab] I would be all for it. However, as things currently stand, the "functionality" is neither well thought out nor properly implemented; it really is just a bug that happens to have just enough vocal supporters to keep it from being removed, while being a serious annoyance to the rest of us.
The preceding comments reflect the author's personal opinion and are public domain, unless explicitly stated otherwise.