I can't think of how someone could post 5+ comments and have all 5 moderated down in 24 hours. That's not steep. And I can say negative things about the GPL and about GNU software and if my comments are generally insightful or informative and more then 'LINUX SUX MY A$$.' If the quality of this users posts are generally as devoid of thought as the flame he just directed at Malda, then I don't think he should be heard, at least not at a Score:1.
And don't give me tripe about the moderation being totally out in deep left field around here. Some moderators aren't good, but on the whole, unfair moderations are undone eventually. Lately, I've been reading a lot of score 2 comments that are not ALL pro-GPL.
And on the side, I'd have to say that GNOME, KDE, XFree86, the kernel itself, all are 'large programs.' So thank you, that last point was TOTALLY useless. And honestly, V4L (Video4Linux) is still new, so you should start to see video editing programs come. Neccessity is the mother of invention.
Graphical frontend to apt? I'm going to assume it's not gnome-apt (as the system is KDE based), so that's something I'd like to see.
And yes, dselect is (mostly) evil. I only use it for package management over 'apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade' because I like to see what's new in packages and get an interactive look at dependencies.. But the learning curve of dselect cost me my first 2 install attempts of Debian. I hope that gets sorted out.
I also wonder, if it's KDE, there aren't any main official debs for it.. *ponders if the distro will use the mainstream package archives much, mostly because of dependencies that would arise from off-stream KDE packages*
The numerical value I can see, but can anyone prove that piracy of software could actually cost 18,000 jobs in one state alone (even if that state is CA, the state with the most tech jobs).
Seriously, are the numbers you see piracy pundits all that serious? I mean, who gives a half a fsck about someone lending a friend a bit of software? The rings that SELL pirated copies are a different case, but all the same, 18k jobs sounds like a number that's so far out there it isn't funny.
What's more fun then that is just how many of the points are used as FUD. Or something like that..
#1, Linux has no hardware support. And here they are telling us NOT to use certain hardware. Hipocrites.
#2, Installing NT where it shouldn't be. Well hot damn, Linux never fscked up my Win9x install.
#3, FS choice: Linux reads em all. Why can't NT read FAT32 (or is this a non-issue now) or 9x read NTFS?
#4, Well, DUH.
#5, Hmm. So NT can't figure what to do on it's own. I guess that the old rule of RAM x 2 for Linux swap still holds true?
#6, Are they saying 9x has no security? Thought so.
#7. Again, DUH.
#8. What's stopping me from running the average libc5 proggie on a glibc2 box? As long as the libs are installed properly (a decent dist does that), then old apps shouldn't be a problem. This is a problem with NT and how it handles 16-bit stuff.
#9. I suppose the axiom, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' applies here. But still, what if it is broke? Most SP's still break more then they fix. And need to be applied in strange ways. RPM upgrading-ing a bunch of files, or just using Debians apt-get lets you install updates without fear!
#10. I dunno. Can't draw a parellel.
So most of these points seem to be inherent weaknesses of NT, specifically 2, 3, 5, 8 and 9. 1 is hipocracy, the others are no brainers. Nice to see.
'Tonnes' of mission crit bugs? Wow, my box here agrees with you, it's never seen problems beyond the occaisonal dependency problem in a FASTLY changing tree.
And as for Slink, it's not horrendously outdated. You can get updated gnome packages, and anyone who cares enough about a 2.2 kernel can build one, and even *gasp* read the webpage they put up on making Slink work with 2.2 and whatever issues may exist.
Debian is a great distro, and they REALLY emphasize stability before ship. Heck, even the pre-release Potato works.
Well, it's written like FlameBait (tm) but does raise some valid points: Is everything that's going in there needed? Granted, it wouldn't be a kernel without networking and SCSI, and things like AGP texturing would be nice..
But where do we draw the line? When does this kernel of ours just get to be too much code? A kernel tree, everything in there, is over 50 megs of source code. That's a damn lot of code.
Thankfully, we're NOT heading towards NT, it's still fast, and stable. Lets just keep efficency in mind. Monolithic kernels are inherently faster, but don't write off alternatives (microkernels maybe).
Picture giant towers with sleeping humans inside small structures jutting out from them. Zoom in on a chamber, see the wires in the humans. Nearby, fields of infants are..
Do I need to refer you to some of the DOJ trial events? The DOJ hired a guy to go through some of the source code to Windows, he came across over 100 *marked* bugs.
So they were marked, they KNEW they were there, they left them. Because that bug was the lesser of two evils, they'd break half the OS fixing some of the oldests bugs.
Shipping a product with bugs is bad enough, but marked bugs? And hundreds of them in the span of a bit of code (the guy didn't get a chance to see everything). I'm scared.
One of the reasons that there are so many bugs in Win* is that old bugs/code are still in there, and everything works around old bugs. They can't even go fixing some of the old bugs because it brings the rest of the system down.
So if Windows itself doesn't run As Documented, you expect developed sofware to work too? That's Windows fault.
More then Daikatana have used the Quake code. See Half Life for a good example. There's probably about 2% original Quake code in there, but it's still licensed to Valve.
And would that mean that any derivatives of HL would need to be out too? That means unreleased products like Team Fortress 2.
That's a point, how far does that license stretch? Does TF2 have to be out before the Quake code can be GPLed? Is it still based on the Quake code? It's like second generation..
Be glad the FAA (or whoever) has avoided making things like flying billboards legal. Sure, you get the Badyear blimp over football games, but that's nothing compared to what COULD happen.
And who remembers the Red Dwarf bit (from the book) with 'Coke Adds Life' spelt out in supernovae? =)
Debs are better then RPM's. That's a statement of fact, Debs do more. It's a shame that RPM's are the standard.
With Debs you get:
- Multiple levels of dependency (Require, Recommend, etc.) - The ability to have more then one package satisfy a dependency (Like a program requires vi. Well there are different vi packages, each providing 'vi', so it doesn't depend on ONE package) - A very very nice, automatic system that locates, downloads, and installs packages in the right order to satisfy depenedencies (apt, and it's frontend, dselect)
Actually, I wish them luck to half the program, they DO say they're trying to teach 'online ettiquete.' At least then they can 0wN y00 in StYl3.
Note: Previous statement was partially tounge in cheek. Personally, I wish there WERE more civilized people on the net. This probably isn't the way to do it.
Do you realize you're a complete hypocrite? You sit there, claiming base 10 is evil and ickybad, yet there you are using arabic numerals, in a BASE 10 SYSTEM.
So tell me, why are you doing all your math in base 10 and THEN converting to whatever godawful system you choose? To me, nothing could possibly make more sense then base 10. It's how we count. It's how many digits we (usually) have.
How many inches to a mile? You'd spout some memorized value, but tell me, how easily can you count that out in your head? While if it's just base 10 metric, you move the damn decimal point. No memorization, only LOGIC.
Personally, the metric system is the best thing to ever come out of France and we (almost) owe Napolean Bonaparte a pat on the back for it.
Just think of it this way, Nuclear Power works in theory. Then again, so does anarchism, ditto to Communism, Democracy, etc.
Yes nuclear power is cheap. And it's pretty safe if you take the right steps. But the problem at hand is that even relatively minor accidents become much larger, simply due to the forces at work.
So what if you throw some extra coal in the furnace in a coal plant? You'll cough out some extra sulphur because the burning is less clean. That generally doesn't kill everyone within a few miles of the site. But throw some extra uranium on the pile and watch the fireworks start.
We're dealing with very powerful forces that we really don't know how to deal with. Even the 'safest' reactors will screw up, usually at the fault of the guy behind the button. Idiot proof just won't do it.
Incidently, I smell a Darwin Award, with commendations for almost wiping out a small town too (and now I feel ill having said that)
Actually, I can think of a great application for this for people with no cash (students)
While monitors are nice, high quality, and expensive picture boxes, well, they're small for the price. So what's the idea? Take a 15", 17" monitor, strap a removable one of these on and voila, instant TV!
Especially cool for watching DVD's or TV with a tuner card (Video4Linux Baby!) And most ubergeeks have decent sound systems too, gotta play the MP3's loud, huh? =)
So what does this add up to? For me, if I can make this work on my 17" monitor and be reversable, that's a 34" TV for the viewing pleasure of my dorm floor, with the Matrix on DVD.
Yeah, but as a technogeek, I loved it. It was a rush making it all work.. Eventually configuring X on my RH4.2 box then staring at it in wonder.. How do I START this thing?
Oh, startx! How do I make it LOOK better? startx -- -bpp 16. These are the things that are fun to figure out.
There's no one short, simple and stupid text file that tells you how to do everything I've learned. Because all I've learned is a LOT, from just installing (RH -> Slack -> Debian), to editors (pico -> vim) to email (pine -> fetch/procmail & mutt) and so on.
I've learned tonnes. A reinstall of Debian takes me a matter of minutes, then the time to download all potato's debs, then getting X going, looking nice, configuring my desktop, my email settings..
However! This is just the same as with Windows (back when I used it). You'd start out knowing next to nothing. You could read some manuals if you wanted, but you'd still learn more just using it, playing with it, building up a repository of practical knowlege.
Anyone can learn something from a book, the true test is applied knowlege.
You're talking app level again. Shortcuts for dialog boxes aren't handled by the OS. Once again, you're talking about just plain common sense code in apps.
And PLEASE, give me some examples of 'good' Mac shortcuts compared to 'evil' Windows ones. You're just FUDing by giving no examples. And again, shortcuts are mostly app level.
"You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but most people would disagree with you. Believe it or not, Enlightenment with an undulating background and neon translucent windows is not what most people would consider an intuitive interface. The Mac GUI follows a simple set of rules that is consisitent between applications and the Finder. Windows hasn't even gotten this one down yet, let alone Linux."
Pardon? Windows even does this. Linux is getting into it. If I go into Windows, pretty much every window I open will have a kill button, a mimize button, etc. Most every program I run will have a File menu where I can save/print/etc. Half of that was up to the app programmers, half to the OS programmers.
The look/feel of Windows' titlebars was up to the people who made Windows, and what do you know, they're consistent across all windows because *gasp* they aren't up to the app, they're up to the OS.
Just like any app programmer with a brain puts in a 'File' menu where you save/open/print. That sort of consistency isn't up to the OS like you say, that's just the way you're expected to code your app.
And finally, what's this about 'let alone Linux?' E does what it's told (emphasis on what it's TOLD, I get to tell it how to act), and with say GTK widgets, well everything IS nice and consistent. Want a screenshot of my desktop? I have a very simple E theme, with just a Kill button and another button to Iconify. That's consistent, simple to use. My apps all have 'consistent' menus, with simple functionality in them, like Save, Open, Exit.. Even my panel is nice and functional, a bit like a cross between Apple's quick start bar (whatever it's called, sorry I can't remember) and Windows' Taskbar.
Yes, Apple did a nice job with the simplicity of their GUI. This consistency you're talking about, it's not some 'miracle' that Apple made, it's common sense. And remember, even the Apple UI needs to be learned. It's not like I could be staring at an Apple desktop for the first time ever and with no computer knowlege think 'HEY! I know what to do because it's so ELEGANT!' It's called a learning curve. It's just a shorter one.
P.S. And a note to E-Theme makers: Don't be dumb and put functional window buttons next to destructive ones. That's bad UI thinking.
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I can't think of how someone could post 5+ comments and have all 5 moderated down in 24 hours. That's not steep. And I can say negative things about the GPL and about GNU software and if my comments are generally insightful or informative and more then 'LINUX SUX MY A$$.' If the quality of this users posts are generally as devoid of thought as the flame he just directed at Malda, then I don't think he should be heard, at least not at a Score:1.
And don't give me tripe about the moderation being totally out in deep left field around here. Some moderators aren't good, but on the whole, unfair moderations are undone eventually. Lately, I've been reading a lot of score 2 comments that are not ALL pro-GPL.
And on the side, I'd have to say that GNOME, KDE, XFree86, the kernel itself, all are 'large programs.' So thank you, that last point was TOTALLY useless. And honestly, V4L (Video4Linux) is still new, so you should start to see video editing programs come. Neccessity is the mother of invention.
Graphical frontend to apt? I'm going to assume it's not gnome-apt (as the system is KDE based), so that's something I'd like to see.
And yes, dselect is (mostly) evil. I only use it for package management over 'apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade' because I like to see what's new in packages and get an interactive look at dependencies.. But the learning curve of dselect cost me my first 2 install attempts of Debian. I hope that gets sorted out.
I also wonder, if it's KDE, there aren't any main official debs for it.. *ponders if the distro will use the mainstream package archives much, mostly because of dependencies that would arise from off-stream KDE packages*
The numerical value I can see, but can anyone prove that piracy of software could actually cost 18,000 jobs in one state alone (even if that state is CA, the state with the most tech jobs).
Seriously, are the numbers you see piracy pundits all that serious? I mean, who gives a half a fsck about someone lending a friend a bit of software? The rings that SELL pirated copies are a different case, but all the same, 18k jobs sounds like a number that's so far out there it isn't funny.
What's more fun then that is just how many of the points are used as FUD. Or something like that..
#1, Linux has no hardware support. And here they are telling us NOT to use certain hardware. Hipocrites.
#2, Installing NT where it shouldn't be. Well hot damn, Linux never fscked up my Win9x install.
#3, FS choice: Linux reads em all. Why can't NT read FAT32 (or is this a non-issue now) or 9x read NTFS?
#4, Well, DUH.
#5, Hmm. So NT can't figure what to do on it's own. I guess that the old rule of RAM x 2 for Linux swap still holds true?
#6, Are they saying 9x has no security? Thought so.
#7. Again, DUH.
#8. What's stopping me from running the average libc5 proggie on a glibc2 box? As long as the libs are installed properly (a decent dist does that), then old apps shouldn't be a problem. This is a problem with NT and how it handles 16-bit stuff.
#9. I suppose the axiom, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' applies here. But still, what if it is broke? Most SP's still break more then they fix. And need to be applied in strange ways. RPM upgrading-ing a bunch of files, or just using Debians apt-get lets you install updates without fear!
#10. I dunno. Can't draw a parellel.
So most of these points seem to be inherent weaknesses of NT, specifically 2, 3, 5, 8 and 9. 1 is hipocracy, the others are no brainers. Nice to see.
'Tonnes' of mission crit bugs? Wow, my box here agrees with you, it's never seen problems beyond the occaisonal dependency problem in a FASTLY changing tree.
And as for Slink, it's not horrendously outdated. You can get updated gnome packages, and anyone who cares enough about a 2.2 kernel can build one, and even *gasp* read the webpage they put up on making Slink work with 2.2 and whatever issues may exist.
Debian is a great distro, and they REALLY emphasize stability before ship. Heck, even the pre-release Potato works.
Well, it's written like FlameBait (tm) but does raise some valid points: Is everything that's going in there needed? Granted, it wouldn't be a kernel without networking and SCSI, and things like AGP texturing would be nice..
But where do we draw the line? When does this kernel of ours just get to be too much code? A kernel tree, everything in there, is over 50 megs of source code. That's a damn lot of code.
Thankfully, we're NOT heading towards NT, it's still fast, and stable. Lets just keep efficency in mind. Monolithic kernels are inherently faster, but don't write off alternatives (microkernels maybe).
Picture giant towers with sleeping humans inside small structures jutting out from them. Zoom in on a chamber, see the wires in the humans. Nearby, fields of infants are..
You get the idea.
As if society doesn't throw enough away already. More waste in the dumps. Sigh.
Do I need to refer you to some of the DOJ trial events? The DOJ hired a guy to go through some of the source code to Windows, he came across over 100 *marked* bugs.
So they were marked, they KNEW they were there, they left them. Because that bug was the lesser of two evils, they'd break half the OS fixing some of the oldests bugs.
Shipping a product with bugs is bad enough, but marked bugs? And hundreds of them in the span of a bit of code (the guy didn't get a chance to see everything). I'm scared.
I was commenting that Team Fortress 2 is NOT out, and it uses the HL engine, which in turn uses Quake technology.
Or does Valves license on the Quake code extend that far? I don't know.
*Bzzzt* Wrongola.
One of the reasons that there are so many bugs in Win* is that old bugs/code are still in there, and everything works around old bugs. They can't even go fixing some of the old bugs because it brings the rest of the system down.
So if Windows itself doesn't run As Documented, you expect developed sofware to work too? That's Windows fault.
More then Daikatana have used the Quake code. See Half Life for a good example. There's probably about 2% original Quake code in there, but it's still licensed to Valve.
And would that mean that any derivatives of HL would need to be out too? That means unreleased products like Team Fortress 2.
That's a point, how far does that license stretch? Does TF2 have to be out before the Quake code can be GPLed? Is it still based on the Quake code? It's like second generation..
Be glad the FAA (or whoever) has avoided making things like flying billboards legal. Sure, you get the Badyear blimp over football games, but that's nothing compared to what COULD happen.
And who remembers the Red Dwarf bit (from the book) with 'Coke Adds Life' spelt out in supernovae? =)
Debs are better then RPM's. That's a statement of fact, Debs do more. It's a shame that RPM's are the standard.
With Debs you get:
- Multiple levels of dependency (Require, Recommend, etc.)
- The ability to have more then one package satisfy a dependency (Like a program requires vi. Well there are different vi packages, each providing 'vi', so it doesn't depend on ONE package)
- A very very nice, automatic system that locates, downloads, and installs packages in the right order to satisfy depenedencies (apt, and it's frontend, dselect)
I love debs =)
Actually, I wish them luck to half the program, they DO say they're trying to teach 'online ettiquete.' At least then they can 0wN y00 in StYl3.
Note: Previous statement was partially tounge in cheek. Personally, I wish there WERE more civilized people on the net. This probably isn't the way to do it.
Well as long as we're counting up, I'm sure something like base 2*3*4*5*6*7*8... At least then it's nice and divisible =)
The metric system is arbitary in it's own ways, but as long as we're using base 10 numerals, 100 looks a lot rounder then 144.
Then again, aren't people scared of big round numbers? Fear the number 2000, it's biiiiiig and rooooound (Poor Dilbert/Dogbert refernece)
Do you realize you're a complete hypocrite? You sit there, claiming base 10 is evil and ickybad, yet there you are using arabic numerals, in a BASE 10 SYSTEM.
So tell me, why are you doing all your math in base 10 and THEN converting to whatever godawful system you choose? To me, nothing could possibly make more sense then base 10. It's how we count. It's how many digits we (usually) have.
How many inches to a mile? You'd spout some memorized value, but tell me, how easily can you count that out in your head? While if it's just base 10 metric, you move the damn decimal point. No memorization, only LOGIC.
Personally, the metric system is the best thing to ever come out of France and we (almost) owe Napolean Bonaparte a pat on the back for it.
Just think of it this way, Nuclear Power works in theory. Then again, so does anarchism, ditto to Communism, Democracy, etc.
Yes nuclear power is cheap. And it's pretty safe if you take the right steps. But the problem at hand is that even relatively minor accidents become much larger, simply due to the forces at work.
So what if you throw some extra coal in the furnace in a coal plant? You'll cough out some extra sulphur because the burning is less clean. That generally doesn't kill everyone within a few miles of the site. But throw some extra uranium on the pile and watch the fireworks start.
We're dealing with very powerful forces that we really don't know how to deal with. Even the 'safest' reactors will screw up, usually at the fault of the guy behind the button. Idiot proof just won't do it.
Incidently, I smell a Darwin Award, with commendations for almost wiping out a small town too (and now I feel ill having said that)
Actually, I can think of a great application for this for people with no cash (students)
While monitors are nice, high quality, and expensive picture boxes, well, they're small for the price. So what's the idea? Take a 15", 17" monitor, strap a removable one of these on and voila, instant TV!
Especially cool for watching DVD's or TV with a tuner card (Video4Linux Baby!) And most ubergeeks have decent sound systems too, gotta play the MP3's loud, huh? =)
So what does this add up to? For me, if I can make this work on my 17" monitor and be reversable, that's a 34" TV for the viewing pleasure of my dorm floor, with the Matrix on DVD.
Yeah, but as a technogeek, I loved it. It was a rush making it all work.. Eventually configuring X on my RH4.2 box then staring at it in wonder.. How do I START this thing?
Oh, startx! How do I make it LOOK better? startx -- -bpp 16. These are the things that are fun to figure out.
There's no one short, simple and stupid text file that tells you how to do everything I've learned. Because all I've learned is a LOT, from just installing (RH -> Slack -> Debian), to editors (pico -> vim) to email (pine -> fetch/procmail & mutt) and so on.
I've learned tonnes. A reinstall of Debian takes me a matter of minutes, then the time to download all potato's debs, then getting X going, looking nice, configuring my desktop, my email settings..
However! This is just the same as with Windows (back when I used it). You'd start out knowing next to nothing. You could read some manuals if you wanted, but you'd still learn more just using it, playing with it, building up a repository of practical knowlege.
Anyone can learn something from a book, the true test is applied knowlege.
You're talking app level again. Shortcuts for dialog boxes aren't handled by the OS. Once again, you're talking about just plain common sense code in apps.
And PLEASE, give me some examples of 'good' Mac shortcuts compared to 'evil' Windows ones. You're just FUDing by giving no examples. And again, shortcuts are mostly app level.
"You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but most people would disagree with you. Believe it or not, Enlightenment with an undulating background and neon translucent windows is not what most people would consider an intuitive interface. The Mac GUI follows a simple set of rules that is consisitent between applications and the Finder. Windows hasn't even gotten this one down yet, let alone Linux."
Pardon? Windows even does this. Linux is getting into it. If I go into Windows, pretty much every window I open will have a kill button, a mimize button, etc. Most every program I run will have a File menu where I can save/print/etc. Half of that was up to the app programmers, half to the OS programmers.
The look/feel of Windows' titlebars was up to the people who made Windows, and what do you know, they're consistent across all windows because *gasp* they aren't up to the app, they're up to the OS.
Just like any app programmer with a brain puts in a 'File' menu where you save/open/print. That sort of consistency isn't up to the OS like you say, that's just the way you're expected to code your app.
And finally, what's this about 'let alone Linux?' E does what it's told (emphasis on what it's TOLD, I get to tell it how to act), and with say GTK widgets, well everything IS nice and consistent. Want a screenshot of my desktop? I have a very simple E theme, with just a Kill button and another button to Iconify. That's consistent, simple to use. My apps all have 'consistent' menus, with simple functionality in them, like Save, Open, Exit.. Even my panel is nice and functional, a bit like a cross between Apple's quick start bar (whatever it's called, sorry I can't remember) and Windows' Taskbar.
Yes, Apple did a nice job with the simplicity of their GUI. This consistency you're talking about, it's not some 'miracle' that Apple made, it's common sense. And remember, even the Apple UI needs to be learned. It's not like I could be staring at an Apple desktop for the first time ever and with no computer knowlege think 'HEY! I know what to do because it's so ELEGANT!' It's called a learning curve. It's just a shorter one.
P.S. And a note to E-Theme makers: Don't be dumb and put functional window buttons next to destructive ones. That's bad UI thinking.
One word: Space Elevator.
Just the thought of one of those gives me tingles =) Would take some groovy materials though, a good solid tether..
Yeah, but Wizards of the Coast has been through this already. And they're closer then anything else to this.. So there's the precedent.
Doesn't that generally mean 'Legal Precedent?'
Shouldn't this then be thrown out of court anyway?