I thought I had diluted some 12mg down to about 9ish at one point but I'd accidentally just mixed two 12mg bottles and hit it at 120 watts. Never again. That one pull hurt more than any cigarette I ever smoked. But generally, yeah, my experience mirrors yours. The only reason I've gone up this high wattage wise is because the flavors I find I enjoy (mostly tobacco variants) don't seem to come out at the low end. My wife has a variety of fruit flavor stuff, mostly apple and sugary cereal imitations, that I find totally over powering just at 40 watts / 6mg.
"In this study, a high-nicotine device was defined as having levels at or above 18 mg/mL." I vape in the high 90 watt, low 100 watt range depending on device, but holy shit hitting a liquid with anything higher than 12mg/ml at that power is straight up painful. And while you certainly can find it online, the local shops I go to sell mostly in the 3mg and 6mg range. So yeah, if 18 or 25 isn't doing it for you, you almost have to go to cigarettes because vaping with liquid that strong at even moderate wattage is like having your throat scraped with a thousand tiny ice picks.
My college astronomy teacher told us, on our last day of class, you're always better off with an expensive pair of binoculars verses a cheap telescope. This was several years ago but he seemed to be of the opinion that if your budget was less than $200, you were better off with binoculars. He also pointed out that if your child loses interest in astronomy, binoculars have a wide variety of other uses.
Name 1. I dare you. A major genre must be a genre of music, let's say, more than 10,000 people in their market (The United States) listen to.
*Station playlists that would become predictable within a week.
No. Not even close. I have an XM system and the exact reason I have it is because the play lists are constantly in flux. Adding to the mix is that most stations have weekly radio shows that feature brand new (some of it without a label or release yet) music. An example if this is XM 82 The System's hosting of Armin van Buuren's A State of Trance. It doesn't get much fresher than the music he plays.
*Sub-genres within all genres utterly unrepresented in general (for example, one Metal station on all of Sirius, and it only plays death metal).
I'm sorry there isn't an entire channel devoted to speed metal, or 70's speed metal, or 70's speed metal by bands whose members included a man named Bart. Holy crap how can people be this picky?
*A whole slew of stations essentially devoted to playing the exact same stuff that you hear on standard Top 40 radio.
I assume you're also aware of the button on most SR receivers that forces you at gunpoint to listen to the stations you don't like (/sarcasm). Here's something you might also not be aware of : A LOT of people like that sort of music and have SR to listen to it on a nationwide, commercial free basis.
*Commercials, despite being advertised as commercial-free.
All of four XM stations have commercials. They will be gone once their contract with Clear Channel expires.
*Annoying DJs (the receivers display the name/artist playing, you do NOT need DJs trying to be funny between every song).
Most of the stations I listen to have few, if any, DJs. The DJ's name and the name of the program (For example The XMU After School Special With Toby) while she's talking and the instant the song starts the information changes. Most receivers also have the capacity to remember song names, so you can recall them later.
*Oh, and a monthly fee on top of that.
Oh, I forgot, I'm on slashdot where everything should be free and Economics is a dirty word. You're a real peach there Anonymous Coward - OH MY GOD A FEE HOW DAAAARE THEY BWAAAAAAAAAAAAA ADS TOO?!!?!? You can't have it both ways.
When I think of your post, I think this: *Someone call this guy a wahmbulance.
I can't even see how you'd put video game addiction in even the same league as alcoholism or chronic gambling. I mean you can't even - oh sorry, just got in a group for heroic Ramparts. Gotta go.
...long with a long-time Linux sys admin role puts me in a great position to assess Ubuntu. Right. Can you imagine the response had someone said "As a long time Windows server admin, I'm in a great position to assess Vista". Seriously, how many more articles about long time linux users "discovering" they love this or that distro are we in for?
This post will probably just summarize what everyone else has been saying all along, but I felt the need to toss in my opinion, so what the hell. It really doesn't make any sense to use paypal if you do the bulk of your business online. There is very little government supervision of their activities and it looks unproffessional. Imagine telling a client who lived some distance from you that though you couldn't take his money directly, you would be sending someone by their house shortly to pick it up. How do you think that client would react?
On the flip side I adore paypal for paying for auctions on ebay. It's a ton faster than anything else outside of things like billpoint. I flat out refuse to keep any sums of money in my account on paypal though, because as long as it's not in my bank, it doesn't really exist. The only downside I've expirienced as a small time auction buyer/seller is their consistent "if you pay with your credit card and not your bank account you're a fool" attitude. Everytime I goto pay for something with the good 'ol platinum card paypal feels obligated to inform me that my bank would be a better choice. They do it when I pay with my DEBIT card too. So, to say what everyone else is saying, if you're a serious online merchant, look into going directly through the creditcard companys. If you're small potatoes, stick with paypal. And of course, as is the case with any financial transaction, make sure you've always got a paper trail of each account in case something goes wrong because in all likely hood, something eventually will.
After extensively enjoying Jack of all Trades through what seemed like about a season, I was disturbed when the show vanished and after a little research turned out to be cancelled. What most amazed me was that the people behind both your show and Cleo 2525 solved the problem by making Cleo 2525 an hour long show. What were the key factors leading to the shows cacnellation, was it simply poor ratings? Were you ever given a chance to adapt the show or did the higher ups just pull the plug? Also, did you gain any twisted satisfaction when they yanked Cleo 2525? (I know I did)
A lot of people seem to be mentioning, and rightly so, that a real hard core in depth strategy game wouldn't sell very well because most people don't want to have to deal with wether or not this battalion has an adaquate supply line to take this city. Then again, as is evidenced by this question, there are a number of people out there who are looking for something more. I'd say game developers might consider making a game that can be set to a brutally simple shoot-em up level of depth, or all the way up to a seriously complex one. Make options like "Supply lines on/off" to dictate wether or not you have to secure supply lines and something like "Command AI on/off" to dictate wether or not your unit commanders will do it their own way, or get specific directions from you. In that respect, people could learn to play the game like most people really learn to fight wars. Start as a grunt, get the hang of shooting at other people and work your way up. No one just magically becomes a general. The potential addition to replay value would be titanic. So you beat the game controlling 50% of the variables, try beating it while managing 70%. It probably won't happen though.
So what's it going to do when I plop in Monday morning with a ripping hangover? Will it preform more sluggishly, object when I try too accelerate, or complain when I try to go up a hill? What's the car going to do if I ever manage to get my groove on with a girl in the back seat? This seems like about the most rediculous invention I've seen in a long time. Couldn't these people be doing something at least semi-useful with their time?
In reading this article I'm beinning to wonder if AI is going to arrive not in the form of software implementation, but in the form of a computer that's "autonomic". Think about it, the article discusses a computer that is "self healing" with no need for human maintinence. I would imagine such a system would also need limited regenitive capabilities in case hardware was damaged on a physical level, this might fall under the bracket of self replication. Think about the amount of information these machines would be handling and "autonomicly" distributing themselves.
Even limited self replication coupled with the ability to process information so rapidly and powerfully seems like borderline sentience to me. What happens when you attempt to replace an autonomic router and the computer as a whole deceides thats really something you shouldn't do, because the router is so useful. Can this be coded around or avoided altogether? The people that develop this technology are going to have to be weary of creating something that cares more about its own processes than the user trying to make use of them.
The post got me curious as I'd never tried ogg before so I downloaded the plugin for winamp and set about comparing the two formats. I pulled 30 seconds of a song (Electronic's Prodigal Son) to a wav and then encoded that wav into eight files, four files for each format. One for both mp3 and ogg in 64, 128, 192, and 256. I then added all nine files (eight encodes plus wav) to a play list and listened to them at random for a while. To be honest, I really couldn't tell the difference between anything in the 256 range. The ogg, the mp3, and the wav all sounded nearly identical. At 192, I could tell the difference (but not by much) between the encoded files and the wav, but not between each other. At the lower ranges, ogg sounded better, probably due to it's variable bit rate. My guess is however, that no one's considering encoding in 64 these days anyway.
As for what I'm running the sound through, I can't help but think it's all irrelvent. I mean, a good sounding mp3 will sound better than a crappy mp3 regardless of the system. You may be able to achieve higher quality sound via elaborate setups on high end consumer electronics, but the coded file hasn't changed. Seems to me like we were being asked which format was better, not what was the most important factor in determing sound quality. Any true audiophile probably wouldn't even play music on a computer unless he or she had to. I mean come on, do you really think a 100 dollar sound blaster card can do as much as a 2,000 dollar harmon kardon receiver?
In short, senor Taco, my expirience seems to be that if you're looking for good quality take the bastards up to 256 and use what you feel like, there's no difference I can distinguish. If you're looking to save a little space but maintain a decent level of quality, I'd go with ogg.
I haven't seen the show yet, but I hesitantly admit to being worried after seeing the previews UPN has been airing. I was struck mostly by explosions, risque female body parts, and a theme song that sounded like a less talented Dido. I swear to god, if this becomes Star Trek Dawson's Creek style I will myself seek out new ways and new inventions to slowly torture Rick Berman. He will boldly go to a world of pain where no one has gone before.
Though it isn't a computer game, it does teach important lessons about life with an up-beat hip to the kids message! It was released on the original NES 8-bit system, so you won't need a lot of dollar either. Not sure if Wally is for you and those you wish to inspire, check out this informative website :
There seem to be a lot of people commenting about how fans of the show should just be quiet about the numerous (and sometimes glaring) inconsistencies that plagued voyager. Several things must be kept in mind when considering these gripes
1) When you're dealing with technology that doesn't actually exist yet, you're bound to contradict yourself a few times. This is why the Star Trek series has always been plauged by various technology related mess ups. There are so many in fact, that books have been written about the inconsistencies in EACH series. I do believe that either because of the nature of the show or because people seemed so willing to attack it that more of these inconsistencies came to be noticed. In either event, they're going to happen, like it or not. You'll never convince paramount to hire a team of theoretical physicists to fact check the show. Not only would that cost money, but it would make script writing and post production a nightmare.
2) Many people seem to be encouraging us to forget about the techno-blunders and just enjoy the show. I think you're all missing out on exactly what kind of person watches Star Trek. ST fans don't usually finish watching Voyager and then switch to Friends. Most of us like to think about the shows we watch. We WANT the show to make sense everytime, we want to find the mistakes, and we want people to fix them or at least abide by the same rules. It's the fan base the show has relied on so heavily. And I think it's here where the legit gripes come in.
3) The blunders in this show were evidence not of a new problem the writers have, but how the show is marketed. I think if you look back, the inconsistencies in other Trek shows benifited the plot at large. When you start chucking together random technology with a wanton disregard for what's been done prior just to make the show look cool, you're going to upset people. At the same time you're going to lure in some viewers who want to see "stuff blow up" and Seven's rack. Voyager relied on big explosions and fancy technology to win it's ratings. In doing so, some people who wouldn't normally have watched tuned in, while other more "loyal" fans deceided to call it a day.
4)In the end, Voyager wasn't so much a bad show, as it was a bad attempt at marketing. You have to know what your customers want if you're going to sell your product well. According to what I've read, Voyager is the worst rated of all the series, and rightly so. You can't try and use the lowest common denominator to sell a show that people who like to think like to watch. For God's sake, Voyager could never compete with temptation island or survior, it never should have tried. Hopefully the next series will speak more to the traditional demographic instead of tyring to lure people in with breasts and boom. Not that I minded the breasts:)
You can argue the semantics all you like, the bottom line is banner ads don't seem to be making anyone any money. And while some companies that put ads on TV and radio go out of business, I'll wager that more companies that employ banner ads for their advertising go under more often. The recent dot-com carnage of late is evidence enough of that. The important thing to realize in all of this is that advertising creates business for companies, unless you are an advertising firm it is not the way you make money. Companies like yahoo need to realize their business is providing content, and that's what they have to sell to make money. It's their product, it's what people come to their site for, they don't come for the ads. Traditional media is more successful at employing ads because their viewer base is larger. Virtually every home in this country has a TV, a newspaper, and a magazine in it. Not every home is lucky enough to have a computer, let alone one with internet access.
To me, this simply slams home the point that you can't develop a game console and not push hard for 3rd party development of software. True, NBA2K and NFL2K are doing very well, but Sega has again failed to get enough 3rd party help. I bought the system about a year ago and have played perhaps 7 or 8 games worth mentioning (NBA and NFL2K, Worms, Skies of Arcadia.....). Sega has no one to blame but themselves for this, should it turn out to be true.
Slashdot Mirror
I assumed he was a Cleveland sports fan...
I thought I had diluted some 12mg down to about 9ish at one point but I'd accidentally just mixed two 12mg bottles and hit it at 120 watts. Never again. That one pull hurt more than any cigarette I ever smoked. But generally, yeah, my experience mirrors yours. The only reason I've gone up this high wattage wise is because the flavors I find I enjoy (mostly tobacco variants) don't seem to come out at the low end. My wife has a variety of fruit flavor stuff, mostly apple and sugary cereal imitations, that I find totally over powering just at 40 watts / 6mg.
"In this study, a high-nicotine device was defined as having levels at or above 18 mg/mL." I vape in the high 90 watt, low 100 watt range depending on device, but holy shit hitting a liquid with anything higher than 12mg/ml at that power is straight up painful. And while you certainly can find it online, the local shops I go to sell mostly in the 3mg and 6mg range. So yeah, if 18 or 25 isn't doing it for you, you almost have to go to cigarettes because vaping with liquid that strong at even moderate wattage is like having your throat scraped with a thousand tiny ice picks.
My college astronomy teacher told us, on our last day of class, you're always better off with an expensive pair of binoculars verses a cheap telescope. This was several years ago but he seemed to be of the opinion that if your budget was less than $200, you were better off with binoculars. He also pointed out that if your child loses interest in astronomy, binoculars have a wide variety of other uses.
Which only has one version and a single standardized desktop environment. Clearly multiple versions of the same OS are bad.
*Major genres unrepresented.
Name 1. I dare you. A major genre must be a genre of music, let's say, more than 10,000 people in their market (The United States) listen to.
*Station playlists that would become predictable within a week.
No. Not even close. I have an XM system and the exact reason I have it is because the play lists are constantly in flux. Adding to the mix is that most stations have weekly radio shows that feature brand new (some of it without a label or release yet) music. An example if this is XM 82 The System's hosting of Armin van Buuren's A State of Trance. It doesn't get much fresher than the music he plays.
*Sub-genres within all genres utterly unrepresented in general (for example, one Metal station on all of Sirius, and it only plays death metal).
I'm sorry there isn't an entire channel devoted to speed metal, or 70's speed metal, or 70's speed metal by bands whose members included a man named Bart. Holy crap how can people be this picky?
*A whole slew of stations essentially devoted to playing the exact same stuff that you hear on standard Top 40 radio.
I assume you're also aware of the button on most SR receivers that forces you at gunpoint to listen to the stations you don't like (/sarcasm). Here's something you might also not be aware of : A LOT of people like that sort of music and have SR to listen to it on a nationwide, commercial free basis.
*Commercials, despite being advertised as commercial-free.
All of four XM stations have commercials. They will be gone once their contract with Clear Channel expires.
*Annoying DJs (the receivers display the name/artist playing, you do NOT need DJs trying to be funny between every song).
Most of the stations I listen to have few, if any, DJs. The DJ's name and the name of the program (For example The XMU After School Special With Toby) while she's talking and the instant the song starts the information changes. Most receivers also have the capacity to remember song names, so you can recall them later.
*Oh, and a monthly fee on top of that.
Oh, I forgot, I'm on slashdot where everything should be free and Economics is a dirty word. You're a real peach there Anonymous Coward - OH MY GOD A FEE HOW DAAAARE THEY BWAAAAAAAAAAAAA ADS TOO?!!?!? You can't have it both ways.
When I think of your post, I think this:
*Someone call this guy a wahmbulance.
http://adrinael.net/wrong2.jpg
I can't even see how you'd put video game addiction in even the same league as alcoholism or chronic gambling. I mean you can't even - oh sorry, just got in a group for heroic Ramparts. Gotta go.
...long with a long-time Linux sys admin role puts me in a great position to assess Ubuntu. Right. Can you imagine the response had someone said "As a long time Windows server admin, I'm in a great position to assess Vista". Seriously, how many more articles about long time linux users "discovering" they love this or that distro are we in for?This post will probably just summarize what everyone else has been saying all along, but I felt the need to toss in my opinion, so what the hell. It really doesn't make any sense to use paypal if you do the bulk of your business online. There is very little government supervision of their activities and it looks unproffessional. Imagine telling a client who lived some distance from you that though you couldn't take his money directly, you would be sending someone by their house shortly to pick it up. How do you think that client would react?
On the flip side I adore paypal for paying for auctions on ebay. It's a ton faster than anything else outside of things like billpoint. I flat out refuse to keep any sums of money in my account on paypal though, because as long as it's not in my bank, it doesn't really exist. The only downside I've expirienced as a small time auction buyer/seller is their consistent "if you pay with your credit card and not your bank account you're a fool" attitude. Everytime I goto pay for something with the good 'ol platinum card paypal feels obligated to inform me that my bank would be a better choice. They do it when I pay with my DEBIT card too. So, to say what everyone else is saying, if you're a serious online merchant, look into going directly through the creditcard companys. If you're small potatoes, stick with paypal. And of course, as is the case with any financial transaction, make sure you've always got a paper trail of each account in case something goes wrong because in all likely hood, something eventually will.
After extensively enjoying Jack of all Trades through what seemed like about a season, I was disturbed when the show vanished and after a little research turned out to be cancelled. What most amazed me was that the people behind both your show and Cleo 2525 solved the problem by making Cleo 2525 an hour long show. What were the key factors leading to the shows cacnellation, was it simply poor ratings? Were you ever given a chance to adapt the show or did the higher ups just pull the plug? Also, did you gain any twisted satisfaction when they yanked Cleo 2525? (I know I did)
A lot of people seem to be mentioning, and rightly so, that a real hard core in depth strategy game wouldn't sell very well because most people don't want to have to deal with wether or not this battalion has an adaquate supply line to take this city. Then again, as is evidenced by this question, there are a number of people out there who are looking for something more. I'd say game developers might consider making a game that can be set to a brutally simple shoot-em up level of depth, or all the way up to a seriously complex one. Make options like "Supply lines on/off" to dictate wether or not you have to secure supply lines and something like "Command AI on/off" to dictate wether or not your unit commanders will do it their own way, or get specific directions from you. In that respect, people could learn to play the game like most people really learn to fight wars. Start as a grunt, get the hang of shooting at other people and work your way up. No one just magically becomes a general. The potential addition to replay value would be titanic. So you beat the game controlling 50% of the variables, try beating it while managing 70%. It probably won't happen though.
So what's it going to do when I plop in Monday morning with a ripping hangover? Will it preform more sluggishly, object when I try too accelerate, or complain when I try to go up a hill? What's the car going to do if I ever manage to get my groove on with a girl in the back seat? This seems like about the most rediculous invention I've seen in a long time. Couldn't these people be doing something at least semi-useful with their time?
In reading this article I'm beinning to wonder if AI is going to arrive not in the form of software implementation, but in the form of a computer that's "autonomic". Think about it, the article discusses a computer that is "self healing" with no need for human maintinence. I would imagine such a system would also need limited regenitive capabilities in case hardware was damaged on a physical level, this might fall under the bracket of self replication. Think about the amount of information these machines would be handling and "autonomicly" distributing themselves.
Even limited self replication coupled with the ability to process information so rapidly and powerfully seems like borderline sentience to me. What happens when you attempt to replace an autonomic router and the computer as a whole deceides thats really something you shouldn't do, because the router is so useful. Can this be coded around or avoided altogether? The people that develop this technology are going to have to be weary of creating something that cares more about its own processes than the user trying to make use of them.
The post got me curious as I'd never tried ogg before so I downloaded the plugin for winamp and set about comparing the two formats. I pulled 30 seconds of a song (Electronic's Prodigal Son) to a wav and then encoded that wav into eight files, four files for each format. One for both mp3 and ogg in 64, 128, 192, and 256. I then added all nine files (eight encodes plus wav) to a play list and listened to them at random for a while. To be honest, I really couldn't tell the difference between anything in the 256 range. The ogg, the mp3, and the wav all sounded nearly identical. At 192, I could tell the difference (but not by much) between the encoded files and the wav, but not between each other. At the lower ranges, ogg sounded better, probably due to it's variable bit rate. My guess is however, that no one's considering encoding in 64 these days anyway.
As for what I'm running the sound through, I can't help but think it's all irrelvent. I mean, a good sounding mp3 will sound better than a crappy mp3 regardless of the system. You may be able to achieve higher quality sound via elaborate setups on high end consumer electronics, but the coded file hasn't changed. Seems to me like we were being asked which format was better, not what was the most important factor in determing sound quality. Any true audiophile probably wouldn't even play music on a computer unless he or she had to. I mean come on, do you really think a 100 dollar sound blaster card can do as much as a 2,000 dollar harmon kardon receiver?
In short, senor Taco, my expirience seems to be that if you're looking for good quality take the bastards up to 256 and use what you feel like, there's no difference I can distinguish. If you're looking to save a little space but maintain a decent level of quality, I'd go with ogg.
What, no AGP? Fuck that, it's worthless :)
I haven't seen the show yet, but I hesitantly admit to being worried after seeing the previews UPN has been airing. I was struck mostly by explosions, risque female body parts, and a theme song that sounded like a less talented Dido. I swear to god, if this becomes Star Trek Dawson's Creek style I will myself seek out new ways and new inventions to slowly torture Rick Berman. He will boldly go to a world of pain where no one has gone before.
Though it isn't a computer game, it does teach important lessons about life with an up-beat hip to the kids message! It was released on the original NES 8-bit system, so you won't need a lot of dollar either. Not sure if Wally is for you and those you wish to inspire, check out this informative website :
http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/wallybear.htm
Good luck in your honorable quest!
There seem to be a lot of people commenting about how fans of the show should just be quiet about the numerous (and sometimes glaring) inconsistencies that plagued voyager. Several things must be kept in mind when considering these gripes
:)
1) When you're dealing with technology that doesn't actually exist yet, you're bound to contradict yourself a few times. This is why the Star Trek series has always been plauged by various technology related mess ups. There are so many in fact, that books have been written about the inconsistencies in EACH series. I do believe that either because of the nature of the show or because people seemed so willing to attack it that more of these inconsistencies came to be noticed. In either event, they're going to happen, like it or not. You'll never convince paramount to hire a team of theoretical physicists to fact check the show. Not only would that cost money, but it would make script writing and post production a nightmare.
2) Many people seem to be encouraging us to forget about the techno-blunders and just enjoy the show. I think you're all missing out on exactly what kind of person watches Star Trek. ST fans don't usually finish watching Voyager and then switch to Friends. Most of us like to think about the shows we watch. We WANT the show to make sense everytime, we want to find the mistakes, and we want people to fix them or at least abide by the same rules. It's the fan base the show has relied on so heavily. And I think it's here where the legit gripes come in.
3) The blunders in this show were evidence not of a new problem the writers have, but how the show is marketed. I think if you look back, the inconsistencies in other Trek shows benifited the plot at large. When you start chucking together random technology with a wanton disregard for what's been done prior just to make the show look cool, you're going to upset people. At the same time you're going to lure in some viewers who want to see "stuff blow up" and Seven's rack. Voyager relied on big explosions and fancy technology to win it's ratings. In doing so, some people who wouldn't normally have watched tuned in, while other more "loyal" fans deceided to call it a day.
4)In the end, Voyager wasn't so much a bad show, as it was a bad attempt at marketing. You have to know what your customers want if you're going to sell your product well. According to what I've read, Voyager is the worst rated of all the series, and rightly so. You can't try and use the lowest common denominator to sell a show that people who like to think like to watch. For God's sake, Voyager could never compete with temptation island or survior, it never should have tried. Hopefully the next series will speak more to the traditional demographic instead of tyring to lure people in with breasts and boom. Not that I minded the breasts
You can argue the semantics all you like, the bottom line is banner ads don't seem to be making anyone any money. And while some companies that put ads on TV and radio go out of business, I'll wager that more companies that employ banner ads for their advertising go under more often. The recent dot-com carnage of late is evidence enough of that. The important thing to realize in all of this is that advertising creates business for companies, unless you are an advertising firm it is not the way you make money. Companies like yahoo need to realize their business is providing content, and that's what they have to sell to make money. It's their product, it's what people come to their site for, they don't come for the ads. Traditional media is more successful at employing ads because their viewer base is larger. Virtually every home in this country has a TV, a newspaper, and a magazine in it. Not every home is lucky enough to have a computer, let alone one with internet access.
To me, this simply slams home the point that you can't develop a game console and not push hard for 3rd party development of software. True, NBA2K and NFL2K are doing very well, but Sega has again failed to get enough 3rd party help. I bought the system about a year ago and have played perhaps 7 or 8 games worth mentioning (NBA and NFL2K, Worms, Skies of Arcadia.....). Sega has no one to blame but themselves for this, should it turn out to be true.