Yes, but even if they were, it wouldn't make a lick of difference around here. The GPL, in case you haven't noticed, isn't something which the average Slashbot is exactly objective about.;)
Even today, with more money in the bank than a person has a right to
Interesting. Who died and made you the arbiter of how much money a person has a right to?
(And before you go off making a heap of assumptions about me, none of which are implicit in the above question, don't. Just answer the question, and see if you can do it without freaking out either)
Xandros, Linspire, Novell... and any other companies that fold like pup tents are off of my list.
Congratulations for playing exactly into Microsoft's hands, to the same degree as all of these companies who are signing with them...although that was really unavoidable.
Once they get enough of these companies to sign, they'll have all bases covered.
1. If you use Windows, that's the most direct path into their pocket.
2. If you use Linux from a commercial vendor, you will be exposed to promotion of Microsoft products and services by default. (Such as the preferential treatment for their search stipulated in the Linspire agreement)
3. If you use non-commercial Linux or FreeBSD, you'll be part of the new fringe. Given its' small size, for the most part, this demographic won't be something they care about all that much. However, they will be very careful to emphasise to everyone who is listening that if you use non-commercial, you won't get their patent protection, (they'll probably try and create other incentives against the non-commercials as well in time) as well as to ensure that anyone attempting to go from a non-commercial entity to being commercial knows that it will need to be on Microsoft's terms.
You might be able to get away with it on FreeBSD, but on Linux, people will actually make a point of not using your application if it doesn't conform with whatever the FSF's stated requirements are, whether that's the GPL v2, v3, or whatever.
Write it for Windows, and if you can, figure out a way to do a fairly trivial port for FreeBSD. Ports allows for divergent licenses, as long as you clearly stipulate such.
Developers should not have anything to do with Linux unless they are willing to be entirely submissive to the will of the zealots. If you try to be resistant to them in any way, your application simply will not be used.
Sun are the proverbial me-too, camp follower company.
They don't firmly commit to anything, but merely spend a certain amount of time chasing whichever particular ambulance they think is hot with their customer base at a given moment. When the wind changes, they go off in a different direction.
The Power of the Source: Free as in speech is good
Fine and good, but if you're not going to teach them the value of actually using source code, then there isn't much point to this. If you're going to presumably put them on Ubuntu, make sure they know about whatever source compilation options exist for apt, and also place emphasis on the fact that with open source, precompiled binaries are a convenience rather than a necessity. Emphasise the idea that like free speech itself, free source is only likely to stick around for as long as it actually gets used.
Property Rights Turned Upside Down: Copyleft is good
I disagree with the idea that Stallman's ideology should pollute young minds any more than Microsoft's itself should. The ideas within the four freedoms are good, but the GPL specifically should not be emphasised more than non-copyleft licenses. To do otherwise is to promote monoculture.
Myth: With F/OSS I cannot get support: The best support is friends/teachers. Hey, we might have different versions, let me rehash the licensing point.
Friends/teachers, yes. Elitist teenagers on IRC, no. It should be emphasised what are likely to be good sources of assistance, and what may well not be.
I actually really love it when there's an article here about hard core science, because it's one of the only occasions I get to see some of the genuine adults who apparently do still frequent the site coming out of the woodwork in order to comment on it.
Where were you guys when the 14 year old penguinistas took over the place? We could have used a voice of sanity then as well as now.;-)
I gather the "old-fashioned way" is using the IRS goons to beat someone else over the head and steal their money to fund your pet projects, while the civilized way is of course asking people for funds, instead of taking it by force.
D'ya think we could maybe have just one Slashdot article without some anarcho-communist whackjob foaming at the mouth and finding a way to distort the article's topic to further their agenda? Maybe just one?
You're all hypocrites of the worst possible kind, anywayz. Give you $250k a month, a corner office and the proverbial blonde secretary with an IQ of 80 who isn't averse to performing sexual favours, and nary another word about the supposed soulless, rampaging evils of capitalism would ever be heard again.
The only reason why any of you give a damn about the proverbial Golden Rule is because it's someone else who both has the gold and makes the rules. Human nature dictates that if it were you yourself at the top of the heap, immediately upon arrival at that position you'd suffer a sudden and near-supernatural attack of amnesia concerning any concern you might ever have had for the welfare of your fellow man.
It might be a good thing, if Torvalds really isn't interested in the goals the FSF is pursuing. Perhaps start with the exact same text, but with another name (that would still be GPLv2 compatible so it would be a trivial change, but one that would make the situation clear).
If Torvalds were to come out with his own license for the kernel, then you can bet money that version 4 of the GPL would just happen to be mysteriously incompatible with it. Some branch of the zealots (probably the Debian project's kernel people) would fork the kernel under the GPL 4, Linus would be sidelined, and that would be that.
The FSF troll army are a lot bigger than he is, and they are patient. They use something metaphorically similar to water torture to persuade people of things and get what they want.
Don't want to agree with us right away? That's fine. We'll just keep chipping away over time, little by little. We also have our cultists everywhere, and we can surround you with them. They'll keep applying the pressure until you're ready to cave.
Alan Cox is Stallman's minion in the kernel team, and he's been applying the sort of incremental, gradual pressure I'm talking about on the mailing lists. I remember seeing another of the FSF's drones posting to kerneltrap at one point. They make an argument, Linus resists, so they retreat temporarily, come back later, and try again. They don't care how many times they need to do it; in the end you'll go along with what they want purely in order to get them to shut up and leave you alone.
I will admit that the moderation of my parent post has also brought to mind another thing I'm truly sick of in terms of Linux users; the degree to which anyone is censored or attacked if they express an opinion which Linux users don't like. You people are utterly devoid of tolerance for opinions dissenting from your own. I know who is responsible for that, too.
The bottom line is that Linux fanboys and Free Software cultists couldn't give a damn about which applications people actually want/need to use. They just want to get Linux on machines; they're not interested in the problems people are going to have afterwards.
The only place I'd advocate Linux in this or any other type of scenario where people need to get work done is where they don't have to actually see it; i.e., the server. For any end-user/client side use, anyone who has access to it should be using XP. I don't give a damn about the FSF's rhetoric; I fervently wish that Stallman and everyone else associated with that group would (to quote a term from the WoW community) go die in a fire.
I still have my copy of Ubuntu installed, but it's been a few months since I stopped using Linux altogether. Yes, the "community" was the main reason, but I also just got sick of the technical headaches. XP might not be the greatest system on the planet on paper, but it just works. I can get whatever I want done with no fuss, and I don't have to worry about the zealots and the constant bitching and infighting about issues that normal people don't care about, either. My life is a lot simpler.
Most of the people who make up the American government should be moved into nursing homes where they belong. If that were to be done it'd solve a whole heap of different problems, not just the net's.;-)
Watching the comments on these articles about Microsoft makes me think of Peter Pan and the Lost Boys fighting Captain Hook; some of the comments are seriously that juvenile.
Sure, call me a troll, but maybe I'd like to see Microsoft stopped just as much as the rest of you. I'm just not sure how making comments that'd probably embarass a four year old on here really helps to do that.
...about a story like this which adopts a perspective critical of the GPL, is watching its' apologists scurry around like ants trying to make sure that nobody is exposed to that which it's fairly obvious that said apologists know, deep down, is the truth.
Just accept it, guys. Copyleft as a concept is based on fear, and there are developers in existence who do not share your fear, and who thus do not feel a need to use the GPL. As the saying goes, stop struggling, and it won't hurt anywhere near as much.
if/when it comes out. The PC Vampire: The Masquerade was an atmospheric and generally awesome game, IMHO...and my younger brother and I are just the sort of deranged freaks that said atmosphere appeals to, as well.;-)
If you're into this sort of thing, I suspect this game will definitely be something to look forward to, if it's anything like V:TM was.
Divide and conquer. At the end, the volunteer distros will be left alone to do their work, contributing to the shiny new future, while Microsoft makes sure it gets its 10%.
Somehow I doubt a 10% cut of the cheese is all Microsoft are after. I can't believe they'd go to this much effort if they didn't have something else in mind.
I suspect I'm probably one of the drones you've referred to when you're talking about people insulting Stallman. However, I don't feel any particular loyalty towards Microsoft, or anyone else for that matter. I just don't subscribe to the unspeakably moronic assertion that Stallman=good, Microsoft=bad. My perspective is that by definition, being a carrier of human DNA means you are out for yourself. That's true of Stallman, Steve Ballmer, or anyone else you want to talk about.
The main reason why Stallman antagonises me to the degree that he does is purely because he and other people insist on trying to claim that he isn't as terminally megalomaniacal, selfish, and untrustworthy as everyone else.
Maybe the reason why Microsoft are doing this is because they know that any distro they touch is going to get immediately shunned by a very large number of Linux users. Hence, it's one way of distroying the body of distributions, one step at a time.
Microsoft are in effect writing themselves into a corner.
Linux people have been afraid of Microsoft going on a patent rampage for years now. If Microsoft goes around signing contracts with everyone and their dog promising that if they do go on a patent rampage, said signee will be exempt, eventually they'll have done that with enough people that those who will be left that they can sue (in terms of large entities at least) will be effectively nill.
You might come back and say that any contract Microsoft offers isn't worth the paper it's printed on, but I disagree. IANAL, but AFAIK breach of contract is a fairly serious offense in at least some jurisdictions, and not only that, I'm assuming a judge would be fairly sympathetic to any countersuit that signees to the agreement made, in the event that Microsoft did decide to breach it and sue. Then of course there are the PR implications as well.
I'm sure Dr Evil is at times going to continue periodically making threatening noises about patents, but I also very strongly suspect that that is pretty much all he is going to do. Steve will bring a shit storm down upon his head the likes of which he's never before seen if he does decide to actually try it...it's definitely not in his best interests. There would be truly untold amounts of pain and suffering for all concerned...especially including Microsoft.
...a fairly large scale exodus to FreeBSD once the GPL v3 comes out.
The responses to the last few articles that have had anything to do with the GPL have been utterly toxic, on both sides. If the Linux community keeps this up, eventually there will only be the diehards left; nobody else is going to want anything to do with them.
Here's the link for those who want it. It might be a bit less polished than Ubuntu, but you won't have to put up with the toxicity that is standard around here, and if you make improvements to it and want to earn a living from such, nobody has a problem with it like Linux users do. Enjoy.
...all this talk about the "spirit" of the GPL. It's so deliciously subjective. It allows the cultic whackjobs who advocate using this type of language to make up just about any kind of arbitrary, unwritten rule that they might want, and then claim that adhering to said rule is necessary to adhere to the "spirit" of the GPL.
That's the point of such language; to try and claim that the terms specifically set on paper in the license aren't all parties to the license have to comply with, but that there are a whole heap of additional, unwritten stipulations which said parties have to agree to as well, one of which being the general worship of Richard Stallman as God.
I'm wondering why I still post here, actually...I haven't used Linux for weeks, now. As much as I used to love the operating system from a purely technical point of view, I've been completely repelled from using it thanks to the FSF and the army of mindless zealots that follow it. I wonder if that's happened to many other people, recently.
Slashdot Mirror
The GPL and Microsoft's EULA are NOT equivalent.
;)
Yes, but even if they were, it wouldn't make a lick of difference around here. The GPL, in case you haven't noticed, isn't something which the average Slashbot is exactly objective about.
Anyhow, any person that believes the GPL should be respected (as I do) also needs to respect the TOS that MS sets forth.
ROFL. Please, honestly...*Wipes tears of laughter from eyes* Do you really, seriously believe that is going to happen?
If no other single characteristic defines the Linux using portion of Slashdot's userbase, hypocrisy does.
Even today, with more money in the bank than a person has a right to
Interesting. Who died and made you the arbiter of how much money a person has a right to?
(And before you go off making a heap of assumptions about me, none of which are implicit in the above question, don't. Just answer the question, and see if you can do it without freaking out either)
Xandros, Linspire, Novell... and any other companies that fold like pup tents are off of my list.
Congratulations for playing exactly into Microsoft's hands, to the same degree as all of these companies who are signing with them...although that was really unavoidable.
Once they get enough of these companies to sign, they'll have all bases covered.
1. If you use Windows, that's the most direct path into their pocket.
2. If you use Linux from a commercial vendor, you will be exposed to promotion of Microsoft products and services by default. (Such as the preferential treatment for their search stipulated in the Linspire agreement)
3. If you use non-commercial Linux or FreeBSD, you'll be part of the new fringe. Given its' small size, for the most part, this demographic won't be something they care about all that much. However, they will be very careful to emphasise to everyone who is listening that if you use non-commercial, you won't get their patent protection, (they'll probably try and create other incentives against the non-commercials as well in time) as well as to ensure that anyone attempting to go from a non-commercial entity to being commercial knows that it will need to be on Microsoft's terms.
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
You might be able to get away with it on FreeBSD, but on Linux, people will actually make a point of not using your application if it doesn't conform with whatever the FSF's stated requirements are, whether that's the GPL v2, v3, or whatever.
Write it for Windows, and if you can, figure out a way to do a fairly trivial port for FreeBSD. Ports allows for divergent licenses, as long as you clearly stipulate such.
Developers should not have anything to do with Linux unless they are willing to be entirely submissive to the will of the zealots. If you try to be resistant to them in any way, your application simply will not be used.
Sun are the proverbial me-too, camp follower company.
They don't firmly commit to anything, but merely spend a certain amount of time chasing whichever particular ambulance they think is hot with their customer base at a given moment. When the wind changes, they go off in a different direction.
The Power of the Source: Free as in speech is good
Fine and good, but if you're not going to teach them the value of actually using source code, then there isn't much point to this. If you're going to presumably put them on Ubuntu, make sure they know about whatever source compilation options exist for apt, and also place emphasis on the fact that with open source, precompiled binaries are a convenience rather than a necessity. Emphasise the idea that like free speech itself, free source is only likely to stick around for as long as it actually gets used.
Property Rights Turned Upside Down: Copyleft is good
I disagree with the idea that Stallman's ideology should pollute young minds any more than Microsoft's itself should. The ideas within the four freedoms are good, but the GPL specifically should not be emphasised more than non-copyleft licenses. To do otherwise is to promote monoculture.
Myth: With F/OSS I cannot get support: The best support is friends/teachers. Hey, we might have different versions, let me rehash the licensing point.
Friends/teachers, yes. Elitist teenagers on IRC, no. It should be emphasised what are likely to be good sources of assistance, and what may well not be.
I actually really love it when there's an article here about hard core science, because it's one of the only occasions I get to see some of the genuine adults who apparently do still frequent the site coming out of the woodwork in order to comment on it.
;-)
Where were you guys when the 14 year old penguinistas took over the place? We could have used a voice of sanity then as well as now.
I gather the "old-fashioned way" is using the IRS goons to beat someone else over the head and steal their money to fund your pet projects, while the civilized way is of course asking people for funds, instead of taking it by force.
D'ya think we could maybe have just one Slashdot article without some anarcho-communist whackjob foaming at the mouth and finding a way to distort the article's topic to further their agenda? Maybe just one?
You're all hypocrites of the worst possible kind, anywayz. Give you $250k a month, a corner office and the proverbial blonde secretary with an IQ of 80 who isn't averse to performing sexual favours, and nary another word about the supposed soulless, rampaging evils of capitalism would ever be heard again.
The only reason why any of you give a damn about the proverbial Golden Rule is because it's someone else who both has the gold and makes the rules. Human nature dictates that if it were you yourself at the top of the heap, immediately upon arrival at that position you'd suffer a sudden and near-supernatural attack of amnesia concerning any concern you might ever have had for the welfare of your fellow man.
It might be a good thing, if Torvalds really isn't interested in the goals the FSF is pursuing. Perhaps start with the exact same text, but with another name (that would still be GPLv2 compatible so it would be a trivial change, but one that would make the situation clear).
If Torvalds were to come out with his own license for the kernel, then you can bet money that version 4 of the GPL would just happen to be mysteriously incompatible with it. Some branch of the zealots (probably the Debian project's kernel people) would fork the kernel under the GPL 4, Linus would be sidelined, and that would be that.
The FSF troll army are a lot bigger than he is, and they are patient. They use something metaphorically similar to water torture to persuade people of things and get what they want.
Don't want to agree with us right away? That's fine. We'll just keep chipping away over time, little by little. We also have our cultists everywhere, and we can surround you with them. They'll keep applying the pressure until you're ready to cave.
Alan Cox is Stallman's minion in the kernel team, and he's been applying the sort of incremental, gradual pressure I'm talking about on the mailing lists. I remember seeing another of the FSF's drones posting to kerneltrap at one point. They make an argument, Linus resists, so they retreat temporarily, come back later, and try again. They don't care how many times they need to do it; in the end you'll go along with what they want purely in order to get them to shut up and leave you alone.
I will admit that the moderation of my parent post has also brought to mind another thing I'm truly sick of in terms of Linux users; the degree to which anyone is censored or attacked if they express an opinion which Linux users don't like. You people are utterly devoid of tolerance for opinions dissenting from your own. I know who is responsible for that, too.
This is true.
The bottom line is that Linux fanboys and Free Software cultists couldn't give a damn about which applications people actually want/need to use. They just want to get Linux on machines; they're not interested in the problems people are going to have afterwards.
The only place I'd advocate Linux in this or any other type of scenario where people need to get work done is where they don't have to actually see it; i.e., the server. For any end-user/client side use, anyone who has access to it should be using XP. I don't give a damn about the FSF's rhetoric; I fervently wish that Stallman and everyone else associated with that group would (to quote a term from the WoW community) go die in a fire.
I still have my copy of Ubuntu installed, but it's been a few months since I stopped using Linux altogether. Yes, the "community" was the main reason, but I also just got sick of the technical headaches. XP might not be the greatest system on the planet on paper, but it just works. I can get whatever I want done with no fuss, and I don't have to worry about the zealots and the constant bitching and infighting about issues that normal people don't care about, either. My life is a lot simpler.
Most of the people who make up the American government should be moved into nursing homes where they belong. If that were to be done it'd solve a whole heap of different problems, not just the net's. ;-)
Watching the comments on these articles about Microsoft makes me think of Peter Pan and the Lost Boys fighting Captain Hook; some of the comments are seriously that juvenile.
Sure, call me a troll, but maybe I'd like to see Microsoft stopped just as much as the rest of you. I'm just not sure how making comments that'd probably embarass a four year old on here really helps to do that.
GPL is a closed community.
As I've often said before, there's another name for a "closed community." The name is "cult."
...about a story like this which adopts a perspective critical of the GPL, is watching its' apologists scurry around like ants trying to make sure that nobody is exposed to that which it's fairly obvious that said apologists know, deep down, is the truth.
Just accept it, guys. Copyleft as a concept is based on fear, and there are developers in existence who do not share your fear, and who thus do not feel a need to use the GPL. As the saying goes, stop struggling, and it won't hurt anywhere near as much.
if/when it comes out. The PC Vampire: The Masquerade was an atmospheric and generally awesome game, IMHO...and my younger brother and I are just the sort of deranged freaks that said atmosphere appeals to, as well. ;-)
If you're into this sort of thing, I suspect this game will definitely be something to look forward to, if it's anything like V:TM was.
In other news, fish have been seen swimming according to recent reports, and several birds were also observed in flight.
Divide and conquer. At the end, the volunteer distros will be left alone to do their work, contributing to the shiny new future, while Microsoft makes sure it gets its 10%.
Somehow I doubt a 10% cut of the cheese is all Microsoft are after. I can't believe they'd go to this much effort if they didn't have something else in mind.
I suspect I'm probably one of the drones you've referred to when you're talking about people insulting Stallman. However, I don't feel any particular loyalty towards Microsoft, or anyone else for that matter. I just don't subscribe to the unspeakably moronic assertion that Stallman=good, Microsoft=bad. My perspective is that by definition, being a carrier of human DNA means you are out for yourself. That's true of Stallman, Steve Ballmer, or anyone else you want to talk about.
The main reason why Stallman antagonises me to the degree that he does is purely because he and other people insist on trying to claim that he isn't as terminally megalomaniacal, selfish, and untrustworthy as everyone else.
Maybe the reason why Microsoft are doing this is because they know that any distro they touch is going to get immediately shunned by a very large number of Linux users. Hence, it's one way of distroying the body of distributions, one step at a time.
Microsoft are in effect writing themselves into a corner.
Linux people have been afraid of Microsoft going on a patent rampage for years now. If Microsoft goes around signing contracts with everyone and their dog promising that if they do go on a patent rampage, said signee will be exempt, eventually they'll have done that with enough people that those who will be left that they can sue (in terms of large entities at least) will be effectively nill.
You might come back and say that any contract Microsoft offers isn't worth the paper it's printed on, but I disagree. IANAL, but AFAIK breach of contract is a fairly serious offense in at least some jurisdictions, and not only that, I'm assuming a judge would be fairly sympathetic to any countersuit that signees to the agreement made, in the event that Microsoft did decide to breach it and sue. Then of course there are the PR implications as well.
I'm sure Dr Evil is at times going to continue periodically making threatening noises about patents, but I also very strongly suspect that that is pretty much all he is going to do. Steve will bring a shit storm down upon his head the likes of which he's never before seen if he does decide to actually try it...it's definitely not in his best interests. There would be truly untold amounts of pain and suffering for all concerned...especially including Microsoft.
...a fairly large scale exodus to FreeBSD once the GPL v3 comes out.
The responses to the last few articles that have had anything to do with the GPL have been utterly toxic, on both sides. If the Linux community keeps this up, eventually there will only be the diehards left; nobody else is going to want anything to do with them.
Here's the link for those who want it. It might be a bit less polished than Ubuntu, but you won't have to put up with the toxicity that is standard around here, and if you make improvements to it and want to earn a living from such, nobody has a problem with it like Linux users do. Enjoy.
...all this talk about the "spirit" of the GPL. It's so deliciously subjective. It allows the cultic whackjobs who advocate using this type of language to make up just about any kind of arbitrary, unwritten rule that they might want, and then claim that adhering to said rule is necessary to adhere to the "spirit" of the GPL.
That's the point of such language; to try and claim that the terms specifically set on paper in the license aren't all parties to the license have to comply with, but that there are a whole heap of additional, unwritten stipulations which said parties have to agree to as well, one of which being the general worship of Richard Stallman as God.
I'm wondering why I still post here, actually...I haven't used Linux for weeks, now. As much as I used to love the operating system from a purely technical point of view, I've been completely repelled from using it thanks to the FSF and the army of mindless zealots that follow it. I wonder if that's happened to many other people, recently.
Of course it did. Serenity was intelligent. Hence, it's naturally going to be less popular.