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Microsoft Gives Xandros Users Patent Protection
DigDuality writes "Microsoft, shrugging off licensing moves to prevent it from repeating its controversial patent deal with Novell, has signed a set of broad collaboration agreements with Linux provider Xandros that include an intellectual property assurance under which Microsoft will provide patent covenants for Xandros customers."
...from the makers of EDLIN. :-D
Smile, don't click...
Wow. Show me the patents or shut up.
... until all the Lemming drank the cool-aide of fear.
... and even invented ... Linux? It may be time for Linus go join the Linux Protection Agency and assume a new identity.
How long before MS "protects" enough Linux companies that it claims it owns
jess dosn't this guy ever give it a break
I wonder what else Xandros has sold out! I thought they had a good distribution. Thanks, but no thanks. I will stick with people who have integrity and honesty - Fedora and RHEL.
See also: http://www.bpmlegal.com/wselden.html.
This is great. I used to have to pick from so many distros, now I have 2 scratched off the list.
I have used SuSe in the past, but I will never again. Xandros I never used and never will.
From their website...
Office document compatibility. Xandros and Microsoft share the view that competing office productivity applications should, by design, make it easy for customers to exchange files with one another. To that end, Xandros will join Microsoft and other companies that are building open source translators fostering interoperability between documents stored in Open XML and Open Document Format. Xandros will ship the translators in upcoming releases of its Xandros Desktop offering. Does this mean OO is included?Not exactly a new strategy.
I am of the opinion that Microsoft will continue to push the boundary as long as it is around.
I don't really know if this is 'news'. Expecting people to be too surprised at this is sort of like saying "Hey, everybody, another person was killed in the middle east today" and expecting to get responses like "Wow, I didn't see that one coming!" or "You gotta be kidding."
The new MSV alpha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection
Anybody care to suggest which of those articles is applicable?
"Another Distro Bites the Dust." OK, we've got some bad news Monday stuff going on, what with McCain being even more on my bad list now. On the other hand, now we have fewer viable Linux distros to argue about ;)
u-bend
The patent threat is just FUD.
I'm more interested, right now, in how much Xandros was paid for this "deal". Particularly after the problems Novell had with their's. And with Jeremy Allison leaving Novell after that deal.
They know their standing in the community is going to take a hit. So, how much was it worth to them?
Seems like MS is making deals with companies, so that the only way you will be able to get Linux is to buy it. No free distros, only companies!
Of course, that means all the linux users move to commercially supported distros, where they can later be sued due to the exclusions of the patent agreements. Meanwhile, MS trades patents or other IP with these companies, basically using their IP for free. Brilliant!
At least, that's what the scheme looks like to me.
Looks like the next Novell has stepped up in line for obsoletion. Then again when was the last time anyone saw a Xandros server or workstation in production use, so does any of this really matter?
Ubuntu: If at first you don't succeed, blindly slap a sudo in front of it
What is selling out providing, except to bolster Microsoft's position that they must have something, else nobody would be dealing with them?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
They took the money that Microsoft offered. That's really all the news there is here - that Microsoft found another foundering commercial Linux distribution willing to sign up to the patent covenant and give it publicity. The technical aspects are irrelevant, as they indeed are in the Novell deal. Xandros is a little fish without significant technology to offer. Even in the case of Novell, nobody needed Microsoft's help with virtualization - the only thing Microsoft can offer is the slight performance increment of paravirtualization for Windowsover the full virtualization that is available now.
There's not much to do about Xandros. They aren't a big player, this isn't going to make them into one. We should turn away from them as was the casewith Novell, but it seems a bit silly since most of us didn't even know they existed.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
What the fuck was this guy thinking, to make the same kind of deal despite seeing Novell get blackballed by the community? I mean, even Novell should have known better, but at least they might not have anticipated the response. This guy has no excuse.
And what's even worse (for him) is that this agreement, being after March 28, isn't grandfathered in like the Novell deal. From the article:
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
With Novell, Microsoft subsidised Novell Suse licenses. With Xandros, Microsoft is doing a deal to provide "patent covenants", which means protection being sued by Microsoft for patent claims that Microsoft has not actually specified.
The game is to knock down the commercial Linux vendors, one by one, and establish them all as clients of Microsoft's "intellectual property". You can bet that the pressure on Red Hat to settle is quite intense. First, their competitors are being subsidised. Second, their clients are being blackmailed.
I've written a more detailed analysis on this. Microsoft is using software patents to try to take ownership of GNU/Linux and all free software / open source that would be distributed along with it.
Divide and conquer. At the end, the volunteer distros will be left alone to do their work, contributing to the shiny new future, while Microsoft makes sure it gets its 10%.
GPLv3 is being seen as many in the industry as the answer. I think that's wishful thinking. The real answer here is a lawsuit from the government for abuse of monopoly power, where Microsoft is using its monopoly in the desktop area to interfere in the server OS market.
On a related tangent it seems that the Redmond astro-turfing drones are out in force, insulting RMS, calling the GPLv3 all kinds of names, claiming that "freedom" includes the right to abuse other people. Well, drones, suck it. Doesn't matter how much you scream and rant, how much your managers pay you to mess with ISO and push OOXML, Microsoft is either going to learn to "do no evil", or it's going to sink like the Titanic.
My blog
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
When it was just Novell, you know they'd be screwed after GPLv3 because they wouldn't have the resources to fork the last GPLv2 releases of everything. But on the other hand, if Novell and Xandros and ??? ('cause at this point I think we can assume MS will continue making deals) get together, there could be significant forks. And that's really, really bad news.
All the people who've been saying "MS has something else up it's sleeve; just wait for it..." have just been vindicated, I believe.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
So in Brooklyn, for example, Fingers and Lucky come into your restaurant one day and demand a weekly payment in return for which nothing bad happens to your business or your cute little kids. See the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering,quoting definition of Racket, quoting the article: "...best-known is the protection racket, in which criminals demand money from businesses in exchange for the service of "protection" against crimes that the racketeers themselves instigate if unpaid..." So is there a *RICO case here? * RICO (from the same article) "Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (18 U.S.C. 1961-1968)...allowed law enforcement to charge a person or group with racketeering, defined as committing multiple violations of certain varieties within a 10 year period.... purpose..."the elimination of the infiltration of organized crime and racketeering into legitimate organizations operating in interstate commerce."
My impression of Xandros (soley from visiting their booth at Linuxworld) has always been that it is a distro focused on trying to be compatible with MS in the enterprise environment via some specialized Samba-based utilities. It never seemed to me like they offered anything really compelling, though, and this is obviously a "me-too" tactic to remain relevant.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
As others have said, this is part of Microsoft's FUD program to convince people that Linux venders believe Linux does have major patent vulnerabilities, and are bowing to Microsoft's ownership (although, I thought SCO owned Linux, why isn't Microsoft going after them?). But the real Enterprise Linux players will never fall for this. Red Hat might, but Oracle probably will not, given how much Larry hates Bill. Mandrivel and all the rest are not US based, and probably don't see much threat.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
the Pope blessing a Jewish wedding. "It was not done of our accord, but we protect you from the condemnation of sin.". /* insert various forms of F*U's here */
Power to the Penguin!
March 28th was the Grandfathered cutoff date for the GPL3 as far as I know...interesting...
Got Code?
Here's your big chance! Yank your kernel and everything else you got to GPL3 whenever it is final. Handwriting is on the wall, linux will be fragmenting anyway, into at least three different factions-anti MS but sticking with some linux distro and watching as one after the other caves in to redmond, pro GPL3 and tyring to work around that, or pro GPL2 and hanging with linus tree until it becomes unusable, then they'll be a huge switch again. So you might as well get a big share of the pie and do the right thing and get to be a whitehat on these issues! People run operating systems, not just a kernel. Millions of folks could just as easy use solaris with a freer kernel under GPL3 along with GPL3 userland apps and zero MS crap attached to it as not. Your call!
Are Xandros planning on distributing GPLv3 code? Has Microsoft just affirmed it is prepared to shield all downstream recipients against infringement claims? I hear Microsoft talking about building bridges which is strange considering the GPL is already a straight road.
I think the wider implications of this are important considering the FSF have essentially put Microsoft on notice with regard to GPLv3. Is Microsoft really spoiling for a fight or are they just upping their bluff?
There is a way to profit from open source. Make a Linux distro and then make an agreement with MS. Sweet.
Xandros was the Linux distribution running on Microtel hardware that WalMart was selling. It was a very big deal back then.
It's sad to see how far they've fallen.
This will explain things better.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I have a gun - I can either shoot you, or protect you. Your choice. Bwahahahaha...
Those of you who would like to tell Xandros what you think may do so here. You may also tell Novell here. - Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Why? It's working ...
It seems that they'd do it even without the lawsuit protection.
Microsoft seems to just want that bit in there so they can spread FUD.
So, for some money (small change to Microsoft, big bucks to Novell, no idea about Xandros), Microsoft purchases the assistance of a Linux distributor for spreading FUD.
In which case, it is understandable that the rest of the community will reduce their associations with that company. Why waste efforts on a company that is going to help spread FUD about you, your products and your customers?
Microsoft is here to save the day. Two down, hundreds to go. Who will be next? Keep tuned.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
"Look at how hard the Microsoft drones have tried to discredit GPLv3 here."
I suspect that MS has come to the rather obvious conclusion that most people who post on Slashdot are anti-MS and so it would be a waste of time to try to convince them of anything.
Bruce, are you sure that Microsoft is paying Xandros?
When Microsoft did the deal with Novell, the money (mostly) went from Microsoft to Novell. They could spin this as "Novell's patents are worth more" or "Microsoft ships far more units". But Xandros can't have much of a patent portfolio, if any. So if Microsoft is paying them, it's real hard to spin. "Microsoft is paying Xandros so that Microsoft won't sue Xandros's customers." Uh, yeah. Why doesn't Microsoft just not sue, and keep their money?
If Microsoft paid, this would show that Microsoft is having to buy off distros for the distros to put themselves in an untenable position. Essentially, Microsoft is paying them to die.
1. Fork Xandros - call it Expandros or something.
2. Do a "patent" deal with Microsoft.
3. ???
4. Profit!
If it weren't for the rocks in its bed, the stream would have no songs.
I'm no astro-turfing drone. [cut] ... Because that's the day that we as a community finally start to piece back together the tatters of both our credibility and that of our business model.
:-)
Which shows you to be an astro-turfing drone, since we don't have a business model.
That's what you Microsofties fail to understand. You can't demolish free software using the tactics that you employ against competing businesses, because we're not a business. But it's fun to see you going through the motions anyway.
That is something basically nobody here gets, but Suse has no involvement in the Microsoft/Novell deal at all. In fact, the name Suse isn't used anymore the distro is called openSUSE nowadays. openSUSE is the "open" Novell development branch, just as Fedora was for Red Hat, except Novell still fully supports openSUSE ('wonder how long). openSUSE is excluded from the deal, only the Novell enterprise distros are part of it. Novell obviously has many patents of it's earlier days as a company, this stuff is what in the deal (think Zen).
Think of this as a heads up, 'cause this whole discussion is more than a bit stupid, if this fact is constantly missed.
Microsoft are in effect writing themselves into a corner.
Linux people have been afraid of Microsoft going on a patent rampage for years now. If Microsoft goes around signing contracts with everyone and their dog promising that if they do go on a patent rampage, said signee will be exempt, eventually they'll have done that with enough people that those who will be left that they can sue (in terms of large entities at least) will be effectively nill.
You might come back and say that any contract Microsoft offers isn't worth the paper it's printed on, but I disagree. IANAL, but AFAIK breach of contract is a fairly serious offense in at least some jurisdictions, and not only that, I'm assuming a judge would be fairly sympathetic to any countersuit that signees to the agreement made, in the event that Microsoft did decide to breach it and sue. Then of course there are the PR implications as well.
I'm sure Dr Evil is at times going to continue periodically making threatening noises about patents, but I also very strongly suspect that that is pretty much all he is going to do. Steve will bring a shit storm down upon his head the likes of which he's never before seen if he does decide to actually try it...it's definitely not in his best interests. There would be truly untold amounts of pain and suffering for all concerned...especially including Microsoft.
First they ignore you
then they ridicule you
then they fight you --- You are here
then you win.
The road between democracy and tyranny is paved with secrecy in the name of security.
Remember how the movie "Bull Durham" emphasized what a dramatic jump it is from the bush leagues to what they called "The Show", the majors?
Xandros and a dozen other of what Mr. Perens posted above as "struggling" Linux distributions are struggling because people like myself (MEPIS man, 3 years) consider their $50 or $100 OS price a Grave Decision and hopscotch through various distros (Mandrake, Lycoris and Linspire for me) and probably settle on a totally free one. Like me.
So Xandros and many others have gone over a decade unable to ever meet payroll for more people that can gather around one conference table, with growth flattening after they reach a base of a few thousand home users, a couple of dozen minor corporate installs and perhaps a couple of larger ones.
Then MS comes along, and it's not the direct cash so much as the mere prospect of a CHANCE of being seen as a Serious Corporate Solution that might, just might now get picked up by a couple or six dozen larger installs in the hundreds of desktops each. Slashdot readers might not be scared of the patent boogeyman but the larger a company is, the more averse it is to the prospect of such risks, however small. To them, a volume purchase price of $25 per desktop is very, very cheap insurance against even spending one legal-staff-week on a lawsuit threat.
So a company like Xandros can "offend" a free software community that has been collectively sending it a few hundred thousand a year at most to grab a shot at the brass ring of joining "The Show" and selling thousands of installs to big corporations. Like a baseball player taking a longshot at "The Show" even if it burns all bridges back to the bush leagues.
You can blame them but you should also see their point of view.
I liked Xandros...used to like them anyway. It was a nice distro for people who still had one foot in the Windows world. Not sure I even care why they got in bed with Microsoft, they are tainted by the association.
If Microsoft's strategy is to create a clear winner among Linux distributions, they're doing a fine job. Although I'm completely mystified why they would think that was a good idea.
Who knows with Ballmer at the helm.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Maybe the reason why Microsoft are doing this is because they know that any distro they touch is going to get immediately shunned by a very large number of Linux users. Hence, it's one way of distroying the body of distributions, one step at a time.
Buy Xandros, now with immunity from Microsoft Lawsuits(tm)!
Sounds pretty similar to this.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Does this mean we can spread our hate evenly between Xandros and Novell now? I guess Novell, Microsoft and Xandros are the new "Axis of Evil."
Andy
Of all the distros the only one that MS could get to sign the deal and as others state the cutoff on the grandfather clause was in march so stupid stupid xandros just really did kill itself, hope the guy has enough to retire on now.
Pumpkin: The way it is now, you're taking the same risk as when you rob a bank. You take more of a risk, banks are easier. You don't even need a gun in a federal bank. I mean, they're insured, why should they give a fuck? I heard of this one guy, walks into a bank with a portable phone. He gives the phone to the teller, a guy on the other end of the line says, we've got this guy's little girl, if you don't give him all your money, we're gonna kill her.
Yolanda: Did it work?
Pumpkin: Fucking-A right, it worked. That's what I'm saying. Knucklehead walks into a bank with a telephone! Not a pistol, not a shotgun, but a fucking phone. Cleans the place out, doesn't even lift a fucking finger.
Yolanda: Did they hurt the little girl?
Pumpkin: I don't know, there probably never was a little girl in the first place. The point of the story isn't the little girl, the point of the story is, they robbed a bank with a telephone.
I heard you were doing this thing where you -- generously, I must say -- agree not to sue a distrbution's customers for infringing a bunch of patents that you won't name. I also heard -- and this is why I'm writing -- that *you are paying *them for this. So...
I'd like in on this. I'm going to create a new distro every day from now until August 7. In exchange for you not suing the people who buy or download it, I'd like you to give me, say, $5 million per distro. I can come down a bit, though.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
is not the patent deal. What I worry about is the part where Microsoft helps other companies be "compatible" because I'm afraid it may mean that they try to inject thier IP into Open Source projects so that they can sue later.
This may be a troll, but it is funny. The captcha is "looker."
We hate Xandros now, right?
It is as bad as you think and they really are out to get you.
1. Don't team up with Microsoft
2. Get other distributions TO team up with Microsoft
3. Stir up the community
4. $$$$$$$$$ Profit $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Look mom, no empty steps....
1 - Microsoft has still failed to make a big destruction "dividing and conquering" FOSS. They've by now bought 2 dying dsitros, and failed to persuade several others (RedHat included) to join them. While they are buying people, they won't be disruptive simply because people that are for sale are already useless.
2 - Microsoft can buy as much distros as they want, we can always fork new ones. If they fail to convince the community tho follow them, we'll keep working on what they don't want us to. Will MS buy all of us?
3 - Using the words 'subsides' and 'FOSS' at the same sentence is dangerous. You can easly say dumb things.
Rethinking email
Thats the way to get to the root of things. My gut tells me M$ is doing this for very specific reasons - and I also believe their choices of who they're cutting deals with matters as much as the actual act of making a deal. Both Novell and Xandros must have something or some qualities that make them valuable to M$ - otherwise its just money spent. There has to be some reasons - a plan - a motive for M$ to do this beyond the FUD - beyond splitting the Linux community.
... but these guys make badgers look like lap dogs when it comes making a "business deal" or just raping / pillaging other companies or the industry.
I've met and worked with senior M$ technical and marketing folks --- they are not stupid -- they may be drinking the koolaide
Is obvious that Linux is a threat and if M$ can't stop it - then they want a piece of the action
Its not the years, its the mileage
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Why get worked up about this latest development? The Borg want you to boycott one Linux distro after another until there's nothing left. If you like SuSE and Xandros, you should keep on using it.
;-)
And if you really want to make Microsoft hurt, go out and buy a brand-new (subsidized) Xbox360, but buy all of your games secondhand so they never recoup their investment
is out of my book for i am concerned. Microsoft screws their partners, and they in turn leave their dependants and clients in the open because there is nothing to do.
Read radical news here
Does this absolve them from showing violated IP if and when they ever choose to sue?
Does this cause any company to shake in their boots because they are now using Open Source?
and, finally, most importantly...
Does this cause one line of Open Source code to completely disapear from the face of the Earth?
Doesn't Microsoft get it? Don't you all get it? The source code is out there; it has been duplicated on a thousand systems; it isn't ever going to go away. And it won't ever suck as bad and certainly not any worse than Windows. Many, many people will continue to choose it, use it and not ever lose it.
Good delaying tactic, Microsoft, but be afraid; be very afraid. Oops! I see you already are!
I would like to see how Slashdotters, and the Linux community in general, would react if Ubuntu ever decides to "promote interoperability" and "provide indemnification" for its customers by making a deal with Microsoft. Will everyone jump ship? Will the community be able to swallow their pride and concede to continue on with a great distribution? I, for one, use Slackware, so I'm quite certain I will never have this problem. I wonder how many people love software freedom enough to inconvenience themselves, even a little. There's a few of us who have been slogging down the open source road for a long time and I know they would use whatever software they could to promote their ideals. I'm one of those people.
The "Open Source," or maybe I should say, the "Linux User Community" has changed. I don't have a reasonable grasp of what they would do. My guess is they would look the other way. Some of us wouldn't but many would because something like Ubuntu is better than continuing to use Microsoft Windows.
I would like nothing more than for Microsoft to disappear and for software patents to go away, but the reality is we are going to have to live with patents and deal with Microsoft for a long time. I'm somewhat proud of the fact that the "Open Source" development model has been so successful. We are now being recognized by the big players. If there is more interoperability, we will be better positioned in the future to continue to make progress toward penetrating the more mainstream computer market.
I welcome the day when I don't have to fix other people's computers anymore because of some stupid Microsoft Windows bug. I use Windows XP at work and I still average one BSOD a week. I never have to deal with that sort of thing on a Linux computer. I also don't have to fix the same things over and over again. I still have to fix things on Linux, but I only do it once. This is *not* the case with Windows.
These "deals" make the idealist in me cringe, but the pragmatist in me just loves to see it. I'd like to believe that in the end, Microsoft deals or not, user freedom will rule over corporate interests.
Fresh horses and more whiskey for my men.
I agree with those who say "show me the patents or shut up." Microsoft is barking up the wrong tree here, it seems to me. Given that IBM and DEC probably have either previous patents or can show prior art for virtually anything Microsoft can cough up, and also given that the developers of open source tools can code around any actual remaining patents in short order, I think this is just a load.
Whatever supposed legal advantage Microsoft is getting from these licenses is likely to be negligible. But every Windows user that switches to Linux is a loss to Microsoft and a win for the entire Linux community: these people are going to want drivers, pre-installs, etc.
So, on balance, I think these deals really work for Linux, not against it. But I have no problem torpedoing these deals with the GPLv3 either.
Aren't these the same folks that MS already paid off once when they were Corel?
- Jeff
So what?
SUSE / Novel... that was news...
This just means that no other major distro is dumb enough to cut a deal with MS.
Last time I checked (http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major)
Xandros isn't exactly a major distro.
MS is scraping the bottom to get someone to sign on...
I think someone at Xandros decided its time to cash in and exit.
maybe the Xandros CEO is thinking:
"with the MS payout I will exceed my targets and get a big bonus
next quarter... Then I can move on to the next company right after
my Mediterranean holiday..."
----- "Profanity is the one language that all programmers understand."
Please note three things, especially the second and third:
f t.shilling.html
1. Of course, an essential quality of the dirty dealmaking is a snowballing pattern. Note that Microsoft might use this, among previously stated things, to strengthen both claims of cooperation with the EU and its frantic attempts to hurt ODF adoption.
---------
2. For a primer on Microsoft astroturfing and shilling, see
http://www.inlumineconsulting.com:8080/website/ms
One does not need to believe in any kind of conspiracy to see that the conditions are ripe for an unprecedented attack in the media on the free software community. Again, it's the conditions: various problems at Microsoft, an important license revision coming this month, etc. Scattered individuals of sufficiently warped ethics are highly motivated right now to make noise right now.
I am afraid most slashdotters and other forum participants really have no idea about the level of sophistication of Microsoft manipulative strategy and tactics. Consider it from merely an economic point of view. The pressure is higher than ever at Microsoft--growing threats in the server space and feeling the pinch of so much talent by the likes of Google. Of course, Microsoft has a ton of talented people, but many are quite likely the more "ethically flexible" types that are more comfortable with Microsoft's reputation and would not only have no problem harming the free software community but probably would treat it as an enjoyable game.
Consider, for example, the recent spate of Microsoft turfing and shilling that has been inflicted upon Slashdot. These fakes might take on the identity of any of several traditional mindsets that, say, oppose the GPL and the FSF. Whereas in the past, a fake might have indulged in apologist ravings over Microsoft that are easily dismissed, now it would not at be surprising for them to start faking more sympathetic attitudes, using all manner of reverse psychology, straw men, red herrings, etc. These fakes from the "Microsoft ecosystem" would include far more convincing versions of, say, these trivial caricatures:
"Going with the GPL3 is playing right into Microsoft's hands. MS is hoping for a divide and conquer, with forks everywhere..."
"Opposing the GPL does not imply love for Microsoft. I hate Microsoft, but I also hate people choosing a license just because it's popular."
"Bill Gates and Richard Stallman are both megalomaniacs. Therefore, I choose BSD."
"The GPL3 is punishing a company that has done more than anyone else for desktop Linux: Novell. As for Tivo, let the market decide. Let the GPL3 rot."
"I used to donate every year to the FSF, but they have gone insane with the GPL3. It's against everything they claimed they stood for over so many years."
What makes these particularly insidious is that they exploit people who have sincere concerns--on both sides.
----------
3. A natural objection to #2 as a concern is that it it does not matter. If a faker presents a good argument, then how can anyone lose? After all, it's just an opportunity to test one's own convictions and justifications.
I see two problems. First, it's just a given that Microsoft aims for the lowest common denominator, in this case people who simply are not that critically-minded. Second, it's like a "war of words of attrition." Money is speech, and "justice" sometimes goes to the highest bidder.
Forums are, on a casual level, the manufacture of a mild, tentative consensus about news items. However, a company of unprecedented power and strategic prowess has, in effect, very likely been intruding, indirectly via individuals, and driving up the cost (in time [=money]) of debunking nonsense that harms its opponents.
Does the phrase "poisoned chalice" mean anything to you?
you had me at #!
It would seem that based on the last 7 days Xandros is 42 (^176HpD), or the past 6 months 28 according to Distro Watch. That puts it as significant, does it not?
The question I have is, why go after a player like Xandros, which seems to have lost a bit of the hype? Surely Canonical would have been a better choice or Mandriva? (no offense Xandros; actually, Damn you!)
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
I don't think MS has realized what it is really doing. They think that by picking off a couple of the weaker Linux players they will force the progressive distros to follow suit. (the weaker Corproate distro was Novell, and Xandros is weak as well)
All that this is going to do is make Redhat, Ubuntu and Mandriva stronger, and maybe creating a spot for Linspire to prosper in. They are encouraging the consolidation of Linux, a little of this is not a bad thing.
By the way, who thinks that this was either almost free OR MS payed Xandros because they had a cash crunch or something?
Please fasten your seatbelts and enjoy the spectacular view, as our aircraft descends into the depths of Netcraft Hell.
1. Pick distro's nobody is using. ...
2. Give them patent protection hoping people will use them knowing they suck.
3.
4. Profit!!
It has long been considered a fine conspiracy theory that Microsoft pumped SCO to attack Linux through software patent FUD.
True, Microsoft has strong motivation to destroy Linux, especially in the server space. Linux is the first thing to seriously threaten Windows Server for a very long time. If Microsoft could destroy Linux through breaking market confidence with FUD and lawsuits (never to be settled), it would do them well. SCO likewise were crumbling because of Linux, who uses x86 UNIX nowadays anyway if it's not Linux flavoured?
SCO was threatened by Linux. Microsoft is threatened by Linux.
SCO claimed to hold ownership of the code within Linux. Microsoft claims to hold ownership of the code within Linux.
SCO sold Linux licenses to legitimise their claims without needing to provide evidence. Microsoft is selling patent protection agreements to legitimise their claims without needing to provide evidence.
SCO did everything they could to keep from providing evidence in court. Microsoft is doing everything they can to keep from providing evidence.
The similarities are remarkable. But something is wrong. Nobody is that stupid. If Microsoft was behind SCO, their attempt failed, SCO is rubble, surely they wouldn't just try the same thing with their own brand? What's different this time? Why are they trying to repeat failed history?
I'll leave you with a quote from Blackadder:
Blackadder: Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?
Darling: How can you possibly know that Blackadder? It's classified information.
Blackadder: It's the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that.
Melchett: E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time! There is however one small problem.
Blackadder: That everyone always gets slaughtered the first ten seconds.
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
Since Xandros made a deal that will lock them out of being part of GPLv3, and the Free Software Foundation will all jump to 3 for all of their apts, Xandros will end up being bought by Microsoft, and then Microsoft will give massive surport to "Microsoft Xandros" and add stuff to it that will be released jointly under BSD & GPLv2, hence SOME users will side with GPLv2 while others will side with GPLv3, and divide the community between the two licenses. Also, Microsoft will begin pushing Xandros on people who want Linux.
For those of you who have not heard, there is a list of people who are challenging Microsoft to sue them if it believes that FOSS violates Microsoft patents. Many of the people on the list are not just individuals, but owners of businesses who would potentially be in the sights Microsoft's so called "patent" weapon. None of Microsoft's patent FUD has value if prevailing public opinion questions the value of Microsoft's so-called "patent" weapon.
After all, they paid Novell M$40, so Xandros should have gotten at least M$1. Fair is fair isn't it?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Or, it could be that Microsoft recognizes that their Windows market share is at its zenith, and wants to start disarming a potentially nuclear patent war. Sure, Microsoft has a bunch of patents, but how many times has Microsoft been accused of (or actually has been) "borrowing" some *nix code here and there?
Granted, Microsoft could hire an entire state bar association if they wanted, but litigation is a pain and Microsoft's PR is bad enough as it is. Is is possible that there isn't a conspiracy, and that they just want some 1) good PR and 2) to avoid an ugly suit they're sure to lose by the "deepest pockets" theory of social justice?
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It certainly has been doing so. MS paid people post on OSNews, Zdnet, Digg (and here) all the time; sometimes they're MVPs. This isn't new though, they have planted trolls in free software mailing lists for a long while now; I can't remember the specific name, but there was a major case of that a few years ago. They will do whatever it takes to disrupt the free software development process through the use of arguments and trolls, as well as conduct PR campaigns. I remember PJ also had to deal with the SCOGlings for a long while as they attacked Groklaw.
The fact that Microsoft has a major stake hold in the TV channel MSNBC is also very scary, and they have high political connections through people like BG and SB (recent McCain reference), as well as shown through the extraordinarily weak antitrust decree-- if it were really working, would Microsoft be destroying yet more competition even as it's in the middle of court monitoring? We've all seen what Murdoch can do as owner of News Corp.
Why - that's brilliant. Then - we can't really trust anything we read on Slashdot anymore - because it might be planted by Microsoft. In fact - what a devious way for Microsoft to divide our community!
Wait a minute... Why are you saying this, anyhow? You are spreading paranoia and mistrust on Slashdot! Could it be that you were paid by Microsoft to say these things?
Just kidding :) - really - you make a good point - and it is kinda scary when you think about it.
It is obviously this on:
;->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket
Although the condom definition of protection might also work.
The best account of this patent sharing situation I've seen is Eben Moglen's speech on "the be very afraid tour". Its 5 minutes long and extremely enlightening. I suggest everyone who wishes to understand the situation take a look.
>It certainly has been doing so. MS paid people post on OSNews, Zdnet, Digg (and here) all the time; sometimes they're MVPs.
Please mod AC parent up. What you say updates the claims made on the shilling site I listed, and it indicates more of a current company initiative than the more individual initiative that I described. I had forgotten about the importance of MVPs in general. Another thought I had was that the buzzword "evangelism" takes on a more visible role in IT today, and I can easily see that word as a way to more easily rationalize shilling and turfing to oneself. Thanks.
Why do any of us care what corporations do, especially American corporations. American corporations are about greed, that's it. Open source is by the people, for the people, based on sharing, generosity, and kindness. I personally could care less what Microsoft, Xandros, Novell, or any other corporation does.
Linux from scratch if you have to.
Why should the AC be "modded up"? He provides zero evidence for his claims.
How about he or you identify even ONE Microsoft-paid shill at OSNews.com? (I choose OSNews because it has a smaller number of posters than the other sites; it should be easy to identify a paid MS shill, with proof of such payment). If you can't identify such a shill with prove that he was paid, then STFU.
>They took the money that Microsoft offered.
Bruce, you're a liar as you don't known what you're talking about.
I thought you're better than that nutcase RS and others but apparently not.
You and the likes disgust me, a bunch of old dirty hippies, hating everything that does not fit into your chicken heads.
Mr. Perens is an hypocrite as anybody else from the bunch who can afford not to live on a paycheck.
And there is a herd of low self-esteem teens. This is your OSS/FSF.
>Why should the AC be "modded up"? He provides zero evidence for his claims.
Hey, why not "Interesting" instead of "Informative" or "Insightful"? Yes, the claims did not come with evidence, but they are good leads which might help in digging up some evidence or noticing suspect patterns. Moreover, I and probably many others had totally forgotten about the whole MVP thing. I could easily imagine a "grey zone" where MVPs have non-monetary incentives to conduct misinformation.
Moreover, some of what the AC said has some high credibility, such as the SCO crap against Groklaw. Comments containing points of varying credibility are often modded up.
How about he or you identify even ONE Microsoft-paid shill at OSNews.com? (I choose OSNews because it has a smaller number of posters than the other sites; it should be easy to identify a paid MS shill, with proof of such payment). If you can't identify such a shill with prove that he was paid, then STFU.
What prevents me from STFU is a post I saw a few days ago with this pattern:
"GPL3 is evil, so evil that I'm fed up.
This has pushed me over the edge to seriously looking at the BSD license. At work we're on the verge of moving to Macs."
The only problem here is that this poster has been pushing the BSD license for many years, so the "Oh, my!" fakery is disgusting. Couple this kind of "inspiring" fakery with the obviously high motivation that Microsoft has right now for undermining the free software community, and I believe the media is in for even more crap from Redmond and its partners than it has ever seen.
somebody is showing their retardation
Meh.
And today Xandros sells out to Microsoft.
Xandros, like Novell, has lost a lot of community goodwill. From what I hear, Xandros was quite a small organisation. Already their strongest supporters have turned away. What can we learn from this?
Prediction: Xandros will soon cease to exist. Because they have little market support. Because they're in bed with Microsoft.
Prediction: Novell will repudiate the Microsoft agreement. Novell is a much stronger company than Xandros. They have a chance to avoid the fate of many of Microsoft's business partners (i.e. annihilation).
I can't predict that no more companies are going to fall like these two. Xandros didn't learn from Novell, and Novell didn't learn from EV1. There will always be CEOs who believe that doing business with Microsoft is like doing business with any other company.
I think the - almost instantaneous - ostracism of Xandros indicates that, no matter what else, many people hate Microsoft. They do not want to do business with Microsoft, and they do not want to do business with a company which does business with Microsoft. Microsoft is, for want of a better word, the devil, and when you deal with the devil, you become tainted.
It's fair that it should be possible to use computers without involving Microsoft. It's unfair that they should derive revenue from every operating system, every CPU, every seat.
Microsoft gives Xandros $money, an agreement not to sue, and works on interoperability - right now, it sounds like just making SharePoint play nice and working on an open-source reader for their new Office XML document thingies.
Xandros, in return, works on "management packs" that let Xandros servers talk with Windows servers.
I dunno. Sounds like win-win. But Microsoft is made of lava...
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...from a firestorm of free controversy, uh, publicity.
It sounds more like Xandros is paying for or buying protection to MS. In fact the article goes into quite a bit of emphasis about that fact. So what's with the screwed up title?
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Change title to: Microsoft SELLS patent protection: Microsoft GIVES nothing away.
If you consider Xandros a Linux distro. They are just like Linspire, and Novel. They are crap distros who make users pay for access to free software and updates. They have a almost non-existent share in the Linux world. No big thing. People don't have to pay for their crap, and frankly I don't know anyone stupid enough to do so. Let them have Microsoft, and let them try to sell Windows Linux Edition to someone else.
I oversee the deployment of hundreds of Linux machines in a company with worldwide presence.
If you (and the guys at Novell and Xandros) think people with decision power are not looking at this closely, you are all sorely mistaken.
Becasue the bucket would clearly stop with all the distros that are not commercial in nature.
If they sue people working for Debian, Slackware or Ubuntu then they one trick pony would come to an end.
And people would eventually realize that starting a commercial Linux distro is a cow cash subsidized by MS.
So if what MS wants to do is subsidize the FOSS movement, they are very welcome. And if they are thinking this will kill the movement well, they are up for a rude awakening.
Did I mention that Europe doe not have patents on software? When they see the trick MS is try to pull on other companies they would be mad to listen to the software patents' apologists in detriment of the local IT industry.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... to the first /. article to discuss this without using the term "saber rattling," somewhere.
Bonus points if you can avoid "mud slinging," as well.
"Xandros also plans to license a set of Microsoft server communication protocols in order to make its Linux offerings more Windows friendly."
Now hold on folks. I find this a bit more disturbing that the whole patent sabre-rattling. Granted Xandros CANNOT distribute the source or whatever is tied into these licensed protocols under the GPL to the public. The fact that they intend to use and include these licensed protocols in a Linux distro is just plain stupid. Making your product more interoperable by seeing how things work and writing your own unique methods/code to interoperate is one thing, like Samba. To include these protocols verbatim just makes no sense other than it being the easy way out and destroying a good Linux product and by doing so making it a MS puppet.
I made an ultraviolent video about my rapidly changed opinion of Xandros. Hopefully, it's funny and makes a good point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8TjLIYxP1A
>> My ultraviolent Linux switch video.