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  1. Legalities... on Deathmatch for Dollars? · · Score: 0

    IANAL - but.... there is enough cheating in practically every game out there that there is NO way to enforce it. Heck even given an arcade it's possible to (come to) the place with a few good laptops and override (haven't ya thought about it, a few servos for the joystick and some cameras for 'input'....)
    Now lets discuss credit card fraud and online gambling- my bet is this will be rated something similiar... and if that doesn't kill it, what's a newbie gonna do? Whos' gonna voluntarily 'spray' out all that dough to get good? Not me ;P

  2. Ehhhh, something like that. on Wavy Lenses Extend Depth of Field in Digital Imaging · · Score: 1

    *sigh* thats what I get for reading all of the responses, getting irritated, and typing out a short response because a long one wouldve been wasted. With 12 bits per channel, you are correct, you get 36 bits per pixel, encoded on a 48 bit per pixel setup. Wasting space...

    As for the interprolation, well, the printers can create very smoothe contoured prints, but you need to 'notch' the levels via the 8 bit LUT. Thats what I meant- there is no additional data created (although frankly you could perform some gaussian distribution analysis to figure out how to 'blur' over the extended range).

    Some eyes are better than others at detecting 8 bit problems. Just look at a person's eyes from your digital camera, if you get the chance, and look at the iris.

  3. Actually you only need 12 BPP. on Wavy Lenses Extend Depth of Field in Digital Imaging · · Score: 1

    Really, thats all. Thats 4096 levels and you can't tell the gradient anymore. In fact a printer I've worked on maps 255 to 4096 via a LUT to help smoothe out the image... pity it can't take a 4096 image.

  4. It only gets better! on Helms Deep Battle Recreated In Doom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm just waiting to see Attack of the CLones as a .WAD so I can play it.....
    Although this is a fascinating re-enactment, I'd much rather play with slightly smoother graphics. THere's a reason I payed out the nose for this hardware...

  5. Not Really on Accidental Privacy Spills · · Score: 1

    Only because a) It's not supported by the IT department and b) I use electronic documentation back and forth and it's gotta be readable on every machine. If that could be guaranteed on 35000 different systems.... possibly. ;P

  6. Corp Policy on Documentation Release on Accidental Privacy Spills · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Any time we release a document to any other group of people, inside work or out, we are 'encouraged' to copy all, paste into a new document. That document is then password protected from editing (weak, I know, but it shows diligence). Only then is it to be sent out.

    Of course, following all of that is a royal pain in the arse, so it only gets done on vendor communications and whatnot, and typically it's iffy then. But it is funny to see a template that had gotten hit by a virus from my boss once- I called him up and had him panic about having another bug on his box :)

  7. Took me 20 minutes to read. on Accidental Privacy Spills · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And yet the first posts were done within minutes of the article.

    A very fascinating talk about privacy, copyright, and the failures of both. Betrayed by friends.

    And of course, the assholes that chat online (blog? what a stupid word).

    But it comes down to one small point- a single failure allowed that message to get out. Who's to blame? The guy forwarding it to the mass list? Did he know *everyone* on that list? Probably not. So therefore I'm saying the fault lies there. In every other case, the people that forwarded knew the others, no more than if a simple discussion was being undertaken among friends. I might not know joe and amy, but sue does, and she might mention how I had a good success at work. I wouldn't have told them, but that knowledge propogated without my help.

    However, if Sue then posted on some forumn about my work success, then she'd be crossing the line. So I say, that is where the line in the sand is....and you crossed it. And Laurie is the one that pays for your broken implicit promise.

  8. I'm doing this right now- on RAMdisk RAID? · · Score: 1

    I bought 10 Fibre drives, 18gig 4meg buffer.
    10 FCAL Adapters

    1 hub

    2 Optical Links

    2 Optical cables (want to put them in the basement where it's quieter)

    1 PSU / external case

    Total cost so far is around 500$ for close to 270 gig of storage with 1 gbps speed. I'll post some benchmarks if you are serious about wanting to do this.

  9. Fortunately, I didn't go there- on Collecting Stardust · · Score: 1

    And it sounded just fine to me. So to anyone that didn't go there, you sound like a moron making a big deal about nothing... especially when we click on the article and see the correction....

  10. I live in the North East on Build Your Own Snow Gun · · Score: 5, Funny

    and I've got enough *$()#%*# snow so that anyone that wants it can come pick it up. Seriously. That stupid blizzard cracked my rafters, backed up ice dams, caused me to scramble to move all my computer gear out of the room that had an stalagtite of ice hanging down in it, and really annoyed the hell out of me with my 250$ heating bill (I keep my house at 58F!).

    So needless to say, unless this article describes how to build a snow MELTING gun, I don't any more of that white stuff in my neighborhood. Hell I can't even see out of my driveway- the drifts are up 6 foot now.

    *grumble*

  11. No, this is 2 years old at least on Presenting The CDR-ROM · · Score: 1

    Kodak has been using the stamped image (with the reader software and utilities) to make CDRs for PictureCD. This has been out about 2 years, if I remember correctly when I read about it initially (could be as many as 3.. things blur after awhile).

    So yes, it's actually got some use... and it is practical. Problem is when you update the software you've got a bunch of disks that are quite useless and you can't give to customers.

  12. Old News on Presenting The CDR-ROM · · Score: 1

    Kodak does this already when you get your picture CD made. This has been out at least as long as that, so make that 2 years?

  13. Mirror: Formatted Correctly on Citibank Tries to Hush ATM Crypto Vulnerability · · Score: 2, Informative


    Updated 20 February 2003


    18 February 2003



    To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
    Subject: Citibank tries to gag crypto bug disclosure
    Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:57:34 +0000
    From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>

    Citibank is trying to get an order in the High Court today gagging public disclosure of crypto vulnerabilities:

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/citibank_g ag.pdf

    I have written to the judge opposing the order:

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/citibank_r esponse.pdf

    The background is that my student Mike Bond has discovered some really horrendous vulnerabilities in the cryptographic equipment commonly used to protect the PINs used to identify customers to cash machines:

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/TechReports/UCAM-CL-TR-560 .pdf

    These vulnerabilities mean that bank insiders can almost trivially find out the PINs of any or all customers. The discoveries happened while Mike
    and I were working as expert witnesses on a `phantom withdrawal' case.

    The vulnerabilities are also scientifically interesting:

    http://cryptome.org/pacc.htm

    For the last couple of years or so there has been a rising tide of phantoms. I get emails with increasing frequency from people all over the world whose banks have debited them for ATM withdrawals that they deny making. Banks in
    many countries simply claim that their systems are secure and so the customers must be responsible. It now looks like some of these vulnerabilities have also been discovered by the bad guys. Our courts and regulators should make the banks fix their systems, rather than just lying about security and dumping the costs on the customers.

    Curiously enough, Citi was also the bank in the case that set US law on phantom withdrawals from ATMs (Judd v Citibank). They lost. I hope that's
    an omen, if not a precedent ...
    _____

    Abstract

    We present an attack on hardware security modules used by retail banks for the secure storage and verification of customer PINs in ATM (cash machine) infrastructures. By using adaptive decimalisation tables and guesses, the
    maximum amount of information is learnt about the true PIN upon each guess.
    It takes an average of 15 guesses to determine a four digit PIN using this technique, instead of the 5000 guesses intended. In a single 30 minute
    lunch-break, an attacker can thus discover approximately 7000 PINs rather than 24 with the brute force method. With a $300 withdrawal limit per card, the potential bounty is raised from $7200 to $2.1 million and a single motivated attacker could withdraw $30{50 thousand of this each day. This attack thus presents a serious threat to bank security.

    -- Mike Bond and Piotr Zielinski
    Decimalisation table attacks for PIN cracking
    February 2003

    -----

    From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
    To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
    Subject: Yet another failure of commercial cryptographic equipment
    Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:52:13 +0000

    I gave a talk at Cambridge yesterday in which I described a new and interesting family of attacks on cryptographic equipment. These attacks defeat machines such as the Racal RG7000 and the IBM 4758/CCA which are commonly used to protect the PINs and keys used in automatic teller machines.

    The paper is available online at:

    http://research.microsoft.com/~aherbert/volume63.p df [4.8MB]

    as pages 27-30 in the PDF. [HTML below]

    I got a fax yesterday informing me that an application is to be brought in the High Court, it seems by Citibank, on Thursday 20th February for `relief in relation to the protection of nformation which they accept as being confidential and which ought not to be in the public domain.'

    I hope that no English court would go so far as to censor already published material. However, one just can't tell these days ...



    Protocol Analysis, Composability and Computation


    Ross Anderson, Michael Bond

    University of Cambridge, England



    Security protocols early days


    The study of security protocols has been associated with Roger Needham since 1978, when he published the seminal paper on the subject with Mike Schroeder [1]. The problem they investigated was how to distribute cryptographic keys in a network of computers. One solution is to have an authentication service with which all the principals share a key; then if Alice wants to chat with Bob (for example) she can call the service and get two encrypted messages containing the same session key one encrypted under the key she shares with the service so she can read it, and one encrypted under the key Bob
    shares with the service so Bob can read it. She can now send the second of these to Bob to establish secure communication. The mechanism that Needham and Schroeder designed for this evolved into Kerberos, which is now part of Windows and is probably the most widely used of all uthentication protocols.


    Security protocols are now embedded in a great many applications, but it is common to find unexpected bugs in them. For example, many banks used to encrypt each customers PIN using a key known to their ATMs and write it on the ATM card magnetic strip. The idea was to provide a limited service when the network was down. Years later, a villain discovered that the account number and the encrypted PIN were not linked: he could make up a bank card with his own encrypted PIN but someone elses account number, and loot their account. He went on to steal a lot of money, and once in prison wrote a manual telling everyone else how to do it too. The banks had to spend millions on changing their systems.


    Clarifying the assumptions


    Researchers started to gnaw away at the protocols described in the literature and found fault with essentially all of them. The failure to bind protocol elements was one frequent problem; another was that old messages could be
    replayed. In the case of the original Needham-Schroeder protocol, for example, the freshness of the key generated by the server was guaranteed to only one of the principals. This was not necessarily an attack, as its inventors only
    claimed to protect honest insiders from dishonest outsiders. However, it led to a debate about the assumptions underlying security protocol design.
    Do we protect only against outsiders, or against insiders? Against the malicious, or the merely careless? For example, if we use timestamps to guarantee protocol freshness, are we vulnerable to principals who carelessly let their clocks
    run slow? Do we only consider an attacker to have won if he can impersonate an authorised principal, or do we need to stop people abusing the protocol
    mechanisms to perform a service denial attack?


    The early attacks led to a second seminal paper, which Roger wrote with Mike Burrows and Martin Abadi in 1989 [2], and which introduced a logic of
    authentication. This enables an analyst to formalise the assumptions and goals of a security protocol, and to attempt to prove its correctness. When a proof cannot be found, the place at which one gets stuck often shows where an attack can be mounted. This style of analysis turned out to be very powerful, and a large literature quickly developed in which the BAN Logic
    and other formal tools were developed and extended to tackle a range of problems in protocol design.


    One of the remarkable things about the study of security protocols is that they have not become a solved problem. One might think that managing the
    objects associated with authenticating users over a network passwords, keys and the like was a fairly compact problem which would have been done to death within a few years. However, the more we dig, the more we find.


    Since 1992, Roger has hosted a protocols workshop every Easter. Early events dwelled on matters of authentication and logic, but by the mid-90s, the growing interest in electronic commerce was yielding papers on mechanisms for micropayments, bets, streaming media, mobile communications and electronic voting. Later years brought work on PKI, trust management and copyright enforcement. More and more problems come along as more and more businesses reinvent themselves online; threat models have also become more realistic, with dishonest insiders displacing the mythical evil hacker on the Internet.


    Dishonest insiders, and the composition problem


    Over the last two years, we have been exploring exactly how one might re-engineer cryptography to cope with dishonest insiders. One conclusion is that the analysis of security protocols must be extended to application programming interfaces. This is because the crypto keys used in authentication and payment protocols are often kept in separate hardware security processors, or at least in cryptographic libraries, to which access can be restricted using physical or logical mechanisms. However, an interface has to be exposed to the application program, which will occasionally be suborned whether by a corrupt insider, or by malware. How much harm can be done, and how can we limit it?


    Protecting protocols was hard enough, and yet the typical protocol consists of 35 messages exposed to manipulation. The API of a modern crypto library or hardware cryptoprocessor may contain 30500 callable functions, many with a range of options. This provides a very rich and complex environment for mischief.


    Attacks often involve using two separate echanisms provided by the cryptoprocessor for different purposes, each of which could be innocuous by itself but which combine to cause trouble. For example, it is common to compute a customer PIN by encrypting the account number with a PIN
    derivation key: the cryptoprocessor then returns the PIN encrypted with a PIN storage key, so that the application has no access to its clear
    value. So far, so good. Then there is another transaction that can be used to encrypt a communications key under the terminal key loaded in an ATM. Here things start to go wrong, as the cryptoprocessor does not distinguish between a terminal key and a PIN derivation key; it considers them both to be of the same type. The upshot is that an attacker can supply the device
    with an account number, claiming that it is a communications key, and ask for it to be encrypted under the PIN derivation key.


    Attacks like this extend protocol analysis all the way to the composition problem the problem that connecting two systems that are secure in
    isolation can give a composite system that leaks. This had previously been seen as a separate issue, tackled with different conceptual tools.


    Differential protocol analysis


    We are now working on the second generation of API attacks, which exploit the application syntax supported by the cryptographic service. These attacks are even more powerful, and at least as interesting from the scientific point of view. PIN generation provides a neat example here too. In more detail, the standard PIN computation involves writing the result of the encryption as a hex string and decimalising it. As some banks like to let customers change their PIN to a more memorable number, there is a provision to add an offset to give the PIN that the customer actually enters:
    Account number: 8807 0123 4569 1715
    PIN derivation key: FEFE FEFE FEFE FEFE
    Encrypted account number: A2CE 126C 69AE C82D
    Natural (decimalised) PIN: 0224
    Offset: 6565
    Customer PIN: 6789


    The typical implementation requires the programmer to send the cryptoprocessor the account number, a table describing the decimalisation (here, 0123 4567 8901 2345) and the offset. The processor returns the PIN, encrypted under the PIN storage key. The designers do not seem to have realised that a crooked programmer can manipulate the decimalisation table and the offset as well as the account number. A multitude of attacks follow. For example, one can send in an account number with a decimalisation table of 1111...11 to find out the ciphertext corresponding to a clear PIN of 1111, and then with a decimalisation table of 0111...11 to see if there is a zero in the first four digits of the encrypted account number (if so, the PIN, and thus the ciphertext output, will be different). By manipulating the decimalisation table further,
    he can get all the digits in the PIN, and by then playing with the offset he can get their order. In total, the attack requires only 1525
    unprivileged cryptoprocessor transactions to discover the PIN on a single target account.


    This second type of attack takes protocol analysis into yet another realm: that of differential attacks. Over the last ten years, a number of techniques have been invented for attacking cryptographic systems by bombarding them with inputs with chosen differences.


    For example, in differential cryptanalysis, one analyses the changes in the output of the encryption algorithm; while with differential power analysis, one measures changes in the current consumption or electromagnetic emissions
    of the equipment. Now we have examples of how consecutive runs of a protocol can leak information if the inputs are suitably chosen. The resulting differential protocol analysis appears to be very powerful against
    application-level crypto.


    It will take us some time to figure out the general lessons to be drawn from attacks like this, the robustness principles that designers should use to avoid them, and the analysis techniques that might assure us of a particular
    designs soundness. The randomisation of all protocols (another feature of Rogers work) is likely to be important.


    Quantitative analysis and multiparty computation


    Various researchers have speculated about whether there might one day be a quantitative analysis of protocol security. This might be feasible for
    PIN processing applications as we can measure the information leakage per transaction in terms of the reduction of entropy in the unknown PIN. This
    leads in turn to a possible real-world application of an attack previously considered theoretical.


    Gus Simmons wrote extensively on covert channels in protocols. One such channel that is always present is the balking channel when one of the principals in a protocol signals something by halting and refusing to continue. This is normally considered unimportant as its information capacity is only a third of a bit per transaction. But with systems designed to cope
    with large transaction volumes, this need no longer hold. For example, a Trojanned cryptoprocessor could balk when it sees a redetermined PIN. If the PIN length were eight digits, this would be unlikely to hinder normal
    operation, but at a thousand transactions a second, a programmer could quickly find a number in a typical nine-digit account number range with just this PIN, and open an account for it. Once this kind of problem is appreciated, one can start to look for attacks that involve inducing rare error conditions that cause the cryptoprocessor to abort a transaction. (They exist.)


    A third emerging link is between protocol analysis and secure multiparty computation. In application-level crypto we may have several inputs to a computation, some of them coming from an untrusted source, and we have to
    stop users manipulating the computation to get outputs useful for bad purposes. In the PIN decimalisation example above, one might try to solve the problem by blocking tables such as 1111...11. Yet an attacker can get by with scarcely more work by using two normal-looking tables that differ slightly (another kind of differential attack). We might therefore think that if we cant sanitize the inputs to the computation, perhaps we can authenticate them,
    and use only those tables that real banks actually use. But building every bank in the world into our trust base is what we were trying to avoid by
    using cryptography!


    Conclusion


    The protocol work that started off a quarter of a century ago may have seemed at the time like a minor detail within the larger project of designing robust distributed systems. Yet it has already grown into the main unifying theme of security engineering. Application-level protocols, and especially those from which an attacker can harvest data over many runs, open up new problems.
    The resulting analysis techniques are set to invade the world of composable security, and the world of multiparty computation. The influence, and the consequences, of Rogers contribution just keep on growing.


    References


    1. NEEDHAM, R.M. AND SCHROEDER, R.M.,
    Using encryption
    for authentication in large networks of computers. Comm. ACM, vol.
    21, no. 12, pp. 993-999, 1978.


    2. BURROWS, M. ABADI, M. AND NEEDHAM, R.M.,
    A
    logic of authentication, ACM Transactions on Computer Systems,
    vol. 8, no. 1, pp. 18-36, 1990.

  14. I'm betting.... on Cracker Gains Access to 2.2 Million Credit Cards · · Score: 1

    .... its all about your attitude. And frankly I don't like it. Ring this up for me, this $300 HD. I'm gonna give it to my kid sister for her birthday.... and I'll take 3 more for my Engineering workstation, thanks. And make it snappy, you show the competence of a small snail when it comes to flinging that laser scanner around.

  15. Useful! on Solar Panels As Building Clothing · · Score: 1

    There was an article a long while back (~1994) about using beads in Solar Panels in Popular Mechanics. It was a nice read because it talked about how cheap they could be made using low cost beads instead of crystalline Si... and since each automatically focussed light (bead) it help efficiency.

    Now I happen to own a pair of panels (24") and I must say they do put out quite a bit (these are the huge crystalline growth), but frankly the pricetag is scarry. If I hadn't seen them in a dumpster.....

  16. Actually, I DO work in industry. on Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel · · Score: 1

    Hence my comments about safety and refusal to work with said substance. If you'd like I'd be happy to put you in contact with the people that review (Safety review) all of our procedures. Wanna guess which ones cause the most grief?

  17. No, I would not. It's too dangerous. on Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel · · Score: 2, Informative

    Frankly it is. In fact, if you read up on what killed the Kursk, they say it was indeed an innocuous little substance that looks like water- Peroxide. The stuff reacts with practically every metal to form Oxygen (great for burning fuel). If it can form a high enough pressure to rupture sealed torpedo housings and create a fire hot enough to detonate every single torpedo on a submarine, it can do a bit of damage while being transported.

    And no, I'm not being melodramatic. To be useful it needs to be 100%... but you typically won't find it available over 35%. It's a great oxidizer- add a little to your next charcoal fire and enjoy the fumes! (ok, you'd need a catalyst like Manganese Dioxide to do it, but still...).

    Manufacture it onsite and hope you don't have an accident with your 100 gallon teflon vessels.... and please do it somewhere away from where I live.

  18. Actually- there is a linked video on UFO Evidence From SOHO Satellite · · Score: 1

    It's hidden under IE and i'm not even gonna try to find it in Netscape, but i'm 'buffering' it right now.... been 20 minutes and it's at 2%. I'll let yiou know if it was any good....

  19. Ya know, if this was the 'regular' industry... on Music Biz Predicts 6% Decline in '03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... the stock market analysts would be clamouring for layoffs and restructuring. Period. No lobbying for laws or paying off your local congresscritter

    Lets see, we'd expect to see the following:

    1)A 5% reduction in operational expenses
    2)A 10% reduction in global workforce, with a minimum of 3% coming locally
    3)Announcements of 'diversification' by hiring some recognizably named 'diversification' consultant, who ought to leave after 5 months and make many speeches talking about how the environment wasn't conducive to change and (4 months later) will say it was a success
    4)A number of consultants to help improve product flow
    and finally
    5)Several new products in time for a major tradeshow

    Oh wait, this isn't 'industry', I forgot their lawyers make the money by paying off congress.....

  20. Re:Scan some Photos on Hard Drives Down To A Dollar A Gigabyte · · Score: 2

    I don't want them compressed. I want the actual data back, exactly what was there before. So J2K with it's supported lossless compression is all thats available... and that'll get me to 50% at best.

    So sorry, no 12:1 like jpg... :(

  21. I love the Durst.... on Mac vs. PC Digital Photography Comparison · · Score: 2

    I have prints I made thru my job *cough* that are 15' long on that baby. A panorama the size of a room with the view of what you really saw.

    I also have some very incredible 20x30@400dpi printed on Colour Metallic paper.

    God I loved that machine....

  22. Scan some Photos on Hard Drives Down To A Dollar A Gigabyte · · Score: 2

    Actually, scan all of em. say at 50 megs each (thats what I do. That's 20 photos per gig, or 200 per 10 gig, or 2000 per 100 gig.....

    Oh, btw, I took 3600 photographs in 1 month while working.

    Thats Why. And thats not even talking redundant storage.

  23. Its NOT like the eye on Improving Digital Photography · · Score: 2

    I am SO sick of hearing that.

    Does anyone understand 'spectral response'? Lets have a 30 second lesson on what 'the eye' sees

    The eye can see 3 colours and a 'standard' group of british men are what makes up the CIE Standard Observer. This was arrived by taking 2 monochromatic lights in combination until any projected colour could be created and matched. If you note the Tristimulus graph you can see there are some negative lobes- how can one have negative lobes when you are talking intensities of light added? Because in order to make those particular colours, the 3rd light had to be added to the other side of the screen, in essence 'diluting' the colour to ap point that the colour could be matched.

    OK, we've now got an example of what the eye can 'see'- when you have black pants that look brown under tungsten, you are seeing an example of "metamerism". This is when two colours have the same 'colour' but appear different under different lights- I've seen my Red car look purple under street lights, for example.

    No camera can beat this except with extremely good colour management- in fact, if it were easy (and it is, just not easy ;P) then you'd not have the problem of a purple flower that photographs pink (Rochester, NY, has an Lillac Festival- if you photograph a purple Lillac it comes out Pink if the camera is a cheap digital)

    I could go on and on and on but PLEASE do not call this camera 'like the eye'- all it does is address colour moire issues which on higher end cameras are already being addressed by complicated interprolation algorithms.... which is why you don't see them on your cheap $45 640x480 webcam.

  24. Show me the money on Improving Digital Photography · · Score: 2

    Interesting- you'd like to see an X3 sample? I'd like to see a camera, first. I just read the reviews in PEI (Photo Electronic Imaging) and Professional Photographer here at work and I see some very distinct colour fringing. Of course, I also saw a 'green' railways car rendered as neutral grey (very appealing) no images of subtance.

    I'm actually concerned about your comments about noise. There is a big difference between 'noise' and 'grain' which, to the average photographer, is interchangeable. But when you come right down to it, 'noise' is error and grain is a product of the imaging process

    That means you can make a perfectly grainless image that has very low noise.... and I bet you won't like it. No, Really! I know you don't believe it but I've seen statistics that suggest that there needs to be some little bit of 'something' in the system... which translates to grain... for people to accept the image as real. Maybe it will change with time.

  25. Moire patterns without Digital on Improving Digital Photography · · Score: 2

    Pretty easy. Take two overlapping sheets of fine fabric, such as present within the veil of a bride, and put them some distance behind each other. Instant Moire.

    Professinal photographers have been strugling with this for many years- Digital just has had a way of irritating others to that particular problem.