New laws are designed to make something that works fine illegal: That's the point of it.
As far as I know, the process goes: 1. People are doing something (ex: setting cookies). 2. The legislator is seeing that as a bad thing. 3. A new law is passed to make the practice illegal.
So if my model is right, ALL NEW LAWS will render an otherwise perfectly legal activity illegal.
Yes, I am strongly suggesting that. For example, downloading (and using) Mozilla with the default 128bit encryption is Illegal in France. Though you don't risk too much...
The point is: It is your job and duty to make sure that you are complying with the local law.
The argument is that a laws that implicitely makes it illegal to use IIS in its default configuration is an unfair law
Following your argument, no law should be passed if a software already exists that violates it ? That can't be it right? Software don't make the laws, legislators does.
When did you learn how to read? 76 bits required to describe planets. That means that the first 76 bits will be used as the address of the planet. That still leaves 52 bits for every people on every planet (128-76=52)
Ok, I didn't plan for that to be a flame, so I'm going to try and calm it down and focus on the original problem: Deploying interactive graphs for an enterprise application.
Download IE2 and Netscape2; you can still get Shockwave.
Well, I think we need to be realistic here. I started this flame talking about IE3 and NS3, there is most likely no need to get down to the 3 or 2 versions: They are gone.
Even if they were not totally gone, I don't give a rat's ass if someone deliberately choose to view my website through IE3 or 2, and that breaks.
Flash is in all of the installers too. And javascript can be turned off. This is a nonissue.
Well, in a different way. Flash is included in the installer as an option, JavaScript is part of the core of the browser. That's what native means. Granted you can disable JavaScript.
My point here was that if you disable JavaScript, a lot of websites will stop working (hotmail,... I don't want to get to an exhaustive list here). If you don't install Flash, most of the websites (or at least a greater percentage) will work. It even has a good side effect: You avoid a lot of ad banners.
Flash on Opera, Flash on Konqueror. So, what again? Or do you think it fails to run in IE or Netscape?
Again, my bad, I flaimed. They have the same coverage. (Please don't come back with the IE2/NS2 point, it is irrelevant).
As I already told you, because Shockwave and Flash are circa 2nd generation browsers and Moreover, in legacy browsers, Javascript has notorious implementation problems . Moreover, any browser which can pick up netscape plugins - of which there are quite a few - can pick up flash; none of them can pick up exetrnal JS/ECMAS implementations. And if a browser doesn't have one, it doesn't have both, in general (lately, 6th gen browsers have begun to strip the machine down, so this is becoming less true. Still.)
I assume you want to make a historical point with the circa 2nd generation browsers, right? Let's get back to the real worls where I didn't see one of these since so many years. Historical point taken though.
As I said, the common denominator of the JS implementation in the version 4+ browsers is largely good enough to animate a stupid pie chart. There is bugs, for sure, but you are not going to tell me that ALL and EVERY ONE of the 6 generation of Flash plugins were ALL bug free, right? On all browsers for all platforms? Granted I'm just taking a guess here, but that would be really amazing!!!
I can't understand this. They're not 99.5% of the user base, they're not 99.5% of the broswer list by a longshot.
Allright. Again, if I can't tell, you can't either Even the popular browsers I'm listing doesn't all appear on most of the statistics websites. And we're not going to trust only one of them, are we ?
We'll just have to guess out there. The assumption I am making (and that's only an assumtion) is that most of the users using a browser that is not in this list as it's browser of choice does have one of these at hand. Obviously true for windows users (which are shown as more than 90% on all that stats websites I've found so far).
That said, Flash is enabled in essentially every deployment, whereas as any web master has learned the hard way, JavaScript is oftentimes turned off.
"enabled in essentially every deployment" What the hell does that mean? All ? Essentially ? Every ?
In my experience, webmasters doesn't just disable JavaScript for all websites. Usually the intranet zone have some lower securities settings, like JavaScript enabled. Remember I'm talking about an enterprise Application.
Moreover, there are many legacy browsers which support shockwave, flash, or futuresplash which don't support JavaScript.
Can you tell me of one that would be used by more than 1% of the users out there ? (IE: that would be relevant to this kind of dis
The patent covers what you do, not how you do it. If M$ claim: "Our security DRM scheme works this and that way" that is enough to infringe a patent if InterTrust has patented "This and that way".
A Copyright violation would require InterTrust to make sure the implementation is the same. A Patent just need to make sure they are doing the same thing.
The whole question is irrelevant, that's probably why nobody is answering it.
I've been coding JS before there was DOM in Netscape
I know, me too, I even still have old reflexes to write stuff the Netscape4 way...
what made you post first and ask slashdot, then search for JS libraries?
I honestly didn't think that one could be an enough geek to spend the time and effort necessary to build such a library. I didn't even know if that was doable within reasonnable performances/stability.
I did try to google for something like that but didn't get much success.
Well, download: IE3+, Netscape3+, Opera3+, Konkeror1+. They all have JavaScript. Natively. It is not an option of the installer, you just can't have one of these browsers without JavaScript. Since Flash doesn't even run on all of them, I don't know how you can find that Flash has a better deployment than JavaScript.
For the sake of the example, let's focus on 99.5% of the browsers which are: Netscape4+, Opera5+, IE4+ and Konqueror (Mozilla is included in NS4+ in my example).
The difference is stunning: Flash can run on any browser, if you choose to install it, while JavaScript runs natively on every one of them. You just can't disable it or 50% of the websites out there doesn't work anymore, so you re-enable it very quickly.
So I hope the JavaScript question is settled. And please, even with the bugs that are out there, the common denominator of all the JavaScript engine deployed is still a good enough language to animate a bar/pie chart.
Now for VML, the computation is simple: Netscape4+: 2% Opera5+: 1.5% Konqueror: ??% (most likely below 1) IE4: 0.5% Leaves the winner: IE5+: 94%
There you go: VML runs natively on 94% of the web browsers out there.
Even more if you think about it. All people running Opera or Netscape on a Windows platform have a IE5+ at hand, and if you impose IE5+ for your Web App, you can probably grab them as well.
So? Flash is still more widely deployed than that? Perhaps by 1 or 2%.
Now considering an enterprise application, if we leave the art/design department out of the game (because they don't use an enterprise application), that leaves probably 99% of Windows, with 100% having an IE5+ installed.
Counting that some IT teams are security freaks and don't want any "unsafe" plugins installed and block the HTTP ports to Java applets, Flash files and so on (that does exist, trust me. Let's put the bar to 2% of the companies out there), Flash has a 98% coverage of my target.
VML has 99%. Runs natively. No need for 5% of our retarded users to install the last version because they still run the v2 plugin.
Well, can you still maintain that "Flash could have a better deployment than Javascript" ? Javascript+VML doesn't even need a deployment!!!
Actually, I finally found the ultimate DHTML implementation for this concept: Check it out!
Just a proof (if needed) that my poor little implementation sucks big time;-)
Still some performance issues, but really good stuff otherwise. And the fact that it does works in all browsers is invaluable!!!
This does not replace VML in my mind, but complete it. I see it as a reasonnable fallback if we ever have to support browser != than IE5+. That just validate that the lightweight approach can be cross-browser.
Notably, it's got a far larger deployment than SVG, Java/Javascript, or VML
Funny, I don't know how Flash could have a better deployment than Javascript which is built in virtually ALL browsers. Giving that VML is natively supported by 93% of the browsers out there, it seems also problematic.
Anyways, thanks for the insight. PHP is irrelevant for me since the generation of the graph has to happen on the client side.
Slashdot Mirror
charging for updates & bugfixes.
Where did you read that? The article doesn't mention anything about bugfixes dude. Your MS bashing fever made you blind!
Probably not. See the article mention MS charging for "some" of the updates. I bet the security fixes would be free.
I can't belive that Microsoft has the gall to even consider charging us to fix the holes in their systems
That's good you can't believe it, because nobody said it.
New laws are designed to make something that works fine illegal: That's the point of it.
As far as I know, the process goes:
1. People are doing something (ex: setting cookies).
2. The legislator is seeing that as a bad thing.
3. A new law is passed to make the practice illegal.
So if my model is right, ALL NEW LAWS will render an otherwise perfectly legal activity illegal.
Shit, it's been too long I didn't go to Europe then... Can you still find multizone DVD players in store ?
Yes, I am strongly suggesting that. For example, downloading (and using) Mozilla with the default 128bit encryption is Illegal in France. Though you don't risk too much...
The point is: It is your job and duty to make sure that you are complying with the local law.
The argument is that a laws that implicitely makes it illegal to use IIS in its default configuration is an unfair law
Following your argument, no law should be passed if a software already exists that violates it ? That can't be it right? Software don't make the laws, legislators does.
This stupid law (DVD region) is actually not enforceable in Europe. More and more DVD players out there are multi-zone by default, in the store.
Usually, in a legal matter, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. You're just supposed to know what you're doing.
When did you learn how to read? 76 bits required to describe planets. That means that the first 76 bits will be used as the address of the planet. That still leaves 52 bits for every people on every planet (128-76=52)
But then again, I could be wrong.
Yes, a mirror. So you can slashdot two websites at a time. Much more productive.
You don't have anything to prove, wake up!
You have a jury to convince!!!! And with a smoking gun in one hand, you're halfway there.
10 seconds is common if your computer is a little bloated (IE: out of memory). Very common in fact.
You can;t preload the plugin since it freezes everything since it is started. It does not start gracefully at all...
Ok, I didn't plan for that to be a flame, so I'm going to try and calm it down and focus on the original problem: Deploying interactive graphs for an enterprise application.
... I don't want to get to an exhaustive list here). If you don't install Flash, most of the websites (or at least a greater percentage) will work. It even has a good side effect: You avoid a lot of ad banners.
Download IE2 and Netscape2; you can still get Shockwave.
Well, I think we need to be realistic here. I started this flame talking about IE3 and NS3, there is most likely no need to get down to the 3 or 2 versions: They are gone.
Even if they were not totally gone, I don't give a rat's ass if someone deliberately choose to view my website through IE3 or 2, and that breaks.
Flash is in all of the installers too. And javascript can be turned off. This is a nonissue.
Well, in a different way. Flash is included in the installer as an option, JavaScript is part of the core of the browser. That's what native means. Granted you can disable JavaScript.
My point here was that if you disable JavaScript, a lot of websites will stop working (hotmail,
Flash on Opera, Flash on Konqueror. So, what again? Or do you think it fails to run in IE or Netscape?
Again, my bad, I flaimed. They have the same coverage. (Please don't come back with the IE2/NS2 point, it is irrelevant).
As I already told you, because Shockwave and Flash are circa 2nd generation browsers and Moreover, in legacy browsers, Javascript has notorious implementation problems . Moreover, any browser which can pick up netscape plugins - of which there are quite a few - can pick up flash; none of them can pick up exetrnal JS/ECMAS implementations. And if a browser doesn't have one, it doesn't have both, in general (lately, 6th gen browsers have begun to strip the machine down, so this is becoming less true. Still.)
I assume you want to make a historical point with the circa 2nd generation browsers, right? Let's get back to the real worls where I didn't see one of these since so many years. Historical point taken though.
As I said, the common denominator of the JS implementation in the version 4+ browsers is largely good enough to animate a stupid pie chart. There is bugs, for sure, but you are not going to tell me that ALL and EVERY ONE of the 6 generation of Flash plugins were ALL bug free, right? On all browsers for all platforms? Granted I'm just taking a guess here, but that would be really amazing!!!
I can't understand this. They're not 99.5% of the user base, they're not 99.5% of the broswer list by a longshot.
Allright. Again, if I can't tell, you can't either Even the popular browsers I'm listing doesn't all appear on most of the statistics websites. And we're not going to trust only one of them, are we ?
We'll just have to guess out there. The assumption I am making (and that's only an assumtion) is that most of the users using a browser that is not in this list as it's browser of choice does have one of these at hand. Obviously true for windows users (which are shown as more than 90% on all that stats websites I've found so far).
That said, Flash is enabled in essentially every deployment, whereas as any web master has learned the hard way, JavaScript is oftentimes turned off.
"enabled in essentially every deployment" What the hell does that mean? All ? Essentially ? Every ?
In my experience, webmasters doesn't just disable JavaScript for all websites. Usually the intranet zone have some lower securities settings, like JavaScript enabled. Remember I'm talking about an enterprise Application.
Moreover, there are many legacy browsers which support shockwave, flash, or futuresplash which don't support JavaScript.
Can you tell me of one that would be used by more than 1% of the users out there ? (IE: that would be relevant to this kind of dis
The patent covers what you do, not how you do it. If M$ claim: "Our security DRM scheme works this and that way" that is enough to infringe a patent if InterTrust has patented "This and that way".
A Copyright violation would require InterTrust to make sure the implementation is the same. A Patent just need to make sure they are doing the same thing.
The whole question is irrelevant, that's probably why nobody is answering it.
I've been coding JS before there was DOM in Netscape
I know, me too, I even still have old reflexes to write stuff the Netscape4 way...
what made you post first and ask slashdot, then search for JS libraries?
I honestly didn't think that one could be an enough geek to spend the time and effort necessary to build such a library. I didn't even know if that was doable within reasonnable performances/stability.
I did try to google for something like that but didn't get much success.
Well, download: IE3+, Netscape3+, Opera3+, Konkeror1+. They all have JavaScript. Natively. It is not an option of the installer, you just can't have one of these browsers without JavaScript. Since Flash doesn't even run on all of them, I don't know how you can find that Flash has a better deployment than JavaScript.
For the sake of the example, let's focus on 99.5% of the browsers which are: Netscape4+, Opera5+, IE4+ and Konqueror (Mozilla is included in NS4+ in my example).
The difference is stunning: Flash can run on any browser, if you choose to install it, while JavaScript runs natively on every one of them. You just can't disable it or 50% of the websites out there doesn't work anymore, so you re-enable it very quickly.
So I hope the JavaScript question is settled. And please, even with the bugs that are out there, the common denominator of all the JavaScript engine deployed is still a good enough language to animate a bar/pie chart.
Now for VML, the computation is simple:
Netscape4+: 2%
Opera5+: 1.5%
Konqueror: ??% (most likely below 1)
IE4: 0.5%
Leaves the winner: IE5+: 94%
There you go: VML runs natively on 94% of the web browsers out there.
Even more if you think about it. All people running Opera or Netscape on a Windows platform have a IE5+ at hand, and if you impose IE5+ for your Web App, you can probably grab them as well.
So? Flash is still more widely deployed than that? Perhaps by 1 or 2%.
Now considering an enterprise application, if we leave the art/design department out of the game (because they don't use an enterprise application), that leaves probably 99% of Windows, with 100% having an IE5+ installed.
Counting that some IT teams are security freaks and don't want any "unsafe" plugins installed and block the HTTP ports to Java applets, Flash files and so on (that does exist, trust me. Let's put the bar to 2% of the companies out there), Flash has a 98% coverage of my target.
VML has 99%. Runs natively. No need for 5% of our retarded users to install the last version because they still run the v2 plugin.
Well, can you still maintain that "Flash could have a better deployment than Javascript" ? Javascript+VML doesn't even need a deployment!!!
Well, then I would just ask you to read the story once (or twice) again. Here is the relevant line:
"As we need some interactivity, the GIF image generated on the server-side is not an option"
Well, that would stand true if my company wanted to deploy an enterprise solution for itself, not if it tried to sell it to others.
Actually, I finally found the ultimate DHTML implementation for this concept: Check it out!
;-)
Just a proof (if needed) that my poor little implementation sucks big time
Still some performance issues, but really good stuff otherwise. And the fact that it does works in all browsers is invaluable!!!
This does not replace VML in my mind, but complete it. I see it as a reasonnable fallback if we ever have to support browser != than IE5+. That just validate that the lightweight approach can be cross-browser.
Let me know your thoughts on this one.
Funny to notice that IE has the same bug with Alt-F4 and Ctrl-W. Version 6 they say? IE sucks!
know DOM!
;-)
Sorry, that didn't came out right.
The poster was asking what ways to create charts for the web
I know, I am the poster
I actually found a library that does all that you describe in a more "optimized" way. Very cool in fact: Check it out
The drawback is the performances, of course. Got to keep your graphs simple...
Hmmm...
Notably, it's got a far larger deployment than SVG, Java/Javascript, or VML
Funny, I don't know how Flash could have a better deployment than Javascript which is built in virtually ALL browsers. Giving that VML is natively supported by 93% of the browsers out there, it seems also problematic.
Anyways, thanks for the insight. PHP is irrelevant for me since the generation of the graph has to happen on the client side.
Overkill because of Java. If you need that, better use a Javascript based library like the following one:. htm
http://www.walterzorn.com/jsgraphics/jsgraphics_e
Then you might want to try this library
The DIVs doesn't have to be generated on the server side, but on the client side through DHTML.
These offtopic posts are killing me. Can you please read the question before answering ?
I need a tech to draw a graph on the client-side
Have you tried it ???
First of all, here is an implementation that works with most browsers:
function drawCircle(r, x, y) {
for (j = 0; j < (2*Math.PI);j+=1/r ) {
s = Math.round(r*Math.sin(j)) + x;
c = Math.round(r*Math.cos(j)) + y;
var elem = document.createElement("DIV");
elem.style.borderWidth = "0px";
elem.style.backgroundColor = "black";
elem.style.position = "absolute";
elem.style.top = s + "px";
elem.style.left = c + "px";
elem.style.width = "1px";
elem.style.height = "1px";
elem.style.fontSize= "0px";
document.all["abcdef"].appendChild(elem);
}
}
You should learn to use the DOM instead of document.write....
Second, this is not reasonnably fast. Drawing 5 circles takes 4 seconds on my P3 1GHz (IE5)...
Not mentionning that the more you add DIVs this way, the more your DOM becomes bloated and the slower it becomes to add more.