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iTunes: Don't Leave Home With Them
BadDoggie writes "Politech is reporting that your 'ownership' of music purchased from Apple's iTunes isn't what everyone considers ownership. According to the license, 'Apple may use technologies to verify' that you have not 'use[d] or attempt[d] to use the service from outside of the [United States]'. This includes Canada. Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S." Update: 07/25 16:23 GMT by P : The post to Politech says the songs would "disappear," not be deleted; from the context, it seems they were merely unplayable, not deleted. Update: 07/25 21:34 GMT by M : Apple has contacted the guy, and is apparently making him happy. However, the question remains: Apple definitely doesn't want people buying new songs from outside the U.S., but do they intend to generally permit foreign users to reauthorize (in effect, retain access to) the songs they have already purchased? Apple's policy is very unclear on that point.
And iTunes seemed like such a positive step. Thanks, Apple.
It's always the fine print.. I thought you were different, Apple!
I'm not the devil.. just his advocate.
Thank heavens for the analog hole, eh?
Sound signal comes out, goes straight back into the line-in.
You know, I never knew that before. Thanks, Slashdot!
WHY?!
Sigh. I think its time to give up on online music, and since i refuse to buy cds anymore, Im just gonna go buy a kazoo.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
1st, this letter has inconsistancies in it. It 1st says that the songs disappeared, but later said that they could not be played.
When reading the "Terms of Service", it says that purchases are not available outside of the US and the "service" is not used outside of the US. I'm guessing that iTunes must phone home or something to do with its DRM. If he were to move back to the US, I would guess that he could play his songs again, provided that they were not deleted.
As his letter ends with, maybe we should buy CDs, they are not that expensive when bought used, or download free music, or "share" mp3s off of someone you don't know.
This teaches us one thing: There's no friendly DRM, DRM is always bad, especially if you notice it when it's too late. I hope the users will learn from this and boycott the iTunes store unless they remove the DRM from their songs.
I thought I was allowed to take my ipod to any country I wanted with my iTunes bought music. Damn back plan B) Get music from gnutella networks instead.
What about a country that's under US administration? does that count?
Apple's distribution rights are obviously limited to the US by the contracts they signed with the music companies. Or do you think Apple insisted on this themselves?
That we should be suspicious of any 'license' being perpetuated by a major corporation?
I don't know why the RIAA don't include a shrinkwrap license in every CD either.
Or one more reason to break their stupid DRM. After all, if you do leave the USA, the DMCA doesn't apply to you while you're on foreign soil, so you can then legally crack the DRM and make a proper backuup copy.
Soon we will see the RIAA lobbying for the use of Millitery space-based lasers in order to do the same thing.
Just think, you are just crossing the boarder with a few CDs and ZAP! A huge laser blast from orbit evaporates your CD collection!
...there's a chance that this was something that was mandated by their contractual obligations with the labels providing the music.
Hopefully Apple will be able to secure international licenses and make this a moot point.
Chris -- http://www.bitter.net/
Well, here's a good reminder to read the license before paying good money for DRM'd "product".
Also, one could avoid this problem by burning the tracks to CD as back-up, which Apple can't really do much about no matter where you take them.
It sucks, but Apple has to do what they have to do. I'm sure this has something to do with covering their butts from the wrath of the RIAA.
According to the article, you either have to volunteer the change of address info to Apple, or change the address on your credit card.
So, don't tell Apple you moved and tell your credit card company that you lost your card and need a new one.
You won't be able to purchase new music, but at least you won't lose your existing songs.
Brilliant, seeing as half the intent of itunes is that you can have your music in a digital format, and use it on the move. Apple will be cutting out virtually all travelling businessmen through this. Perhaps, however, this is indicative of the new age of 'international' travel, from New Hampshire to Iowa. To tell the truth, this shouldn't make too much of a difference, seeing as 95% of Americans never leave the continental US.
There's always a catch isn't there? And the Suits wonder why they (the on-line stores) aren't taking off...
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
"use[d] or attempt[d] to use the service from outside of the [United States]'. This includes Canada."
Whew, for a second there I was thinking that we'd annexed Canada. Eh? I think that to be more clear, they should also specifically state that Mexico is outside the US. And, for those who are still in denial, they should state that New Jersey IS part of the United States.
For every new technology that people find attractive there will be features that people don't like these features will be compounded by the amount of press the application gets, but will always be a number greater than one. (represented by +T^p with T=technology and p=problems)
Some developer/hero will then take the time to fix this problem by creating a program outside the program to eliminate this feature. So this is how you figure if Apple will have a successful product.
+T^p So in closing If (+T^p Give it a week someone will figure a way to disable apple from destroying your precious mp3 collection.
Gotta give apple some credit where credit is due, they are trying to control your multimedia yet again.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
First I can't bring my handgun into Canada, and now I can't bring my iTunes music?
...and *always* read the fine print. At least the first few paragraphs.
There's a reason Apple can't let people use the iTunes music service outside of the US (I'm assuming this, at least, since they would bring it to other markets if they could. I'm sure they're working on the legal bits). If they don't have the legality of the service nailed down in other countries, they sort of have to *not* let people in other countries use the service. It makes sense to me.
They've very clearly said the service is only available in the US for now. Yes, it sucks for non-US residents. Deal with it.
Before condemning iTMS as being the ill-begotten spawn of the RIAA, Satan and Bill Gates, maybe the ex-pat should have tried calling Apple and talking to a real live person.
Apple is very upfront that the service isn't available outside the US (at least not yet) and they have apparently put in technical measures to enforce that. The key is if you can talk to a person on the phone or via email and get them to override a false positive. If you can, then this is a minor annoyance. If you can't, then Apple needs to rethink their system
Also, note that you can continue to play music you already purchased outside the US. It is only new purchases or reauthorizing music that you can't do outside the US
Unless the guy can't read, it's his fault - not Apple's.
I'm sure he has a backup - right? - it's the only way to use your computer and your data.
Gil
-- Where ever you go, don't complain, you went there!
download it from kaz...
D'oh.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
always a worm in the apple. who would have thought that a company, just in it for the money, would have some stupid ass clause in their contract?
...
And to boot
1. Listening to your iPod on the toliet will void the warentee.
2. Watching DVD's on your Wide Screen power book, void void void.
3. If you leave the US with anything other than txt files, apple will kindly make them poof. gone.
there had to be a worm in that Apple somewhere.
There's no difference between iTunes and BuyMusic, except that iTunes might be more consistent in how it looks to infringe upon your fair-use rights.
Before leaving the us, burn all the songs to a cd. You can always re-rip them.
I think its time we take a stand against this crap!!
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
Come on, Apple.
I see you jockin' me.
Tryin' to play like you know me.
Man, Apple, you're just making yourself look worse.
You know?
I mean, Everybody's just gonna feel sorry for me.
I mean, I do.
fhqwhgads
--Jasin Natael
True science means that when you re-evaluate the evidence, you re-evaluate your faith.
How legal are terms of sale? They seem to be even worse then EULAs, since most times you are not even required to click through them. Any thoughts or legal precedents on this?
When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
I currently use a laptop for work (PII/NetBSD) and have been interested by the new mac laptops, iPods and iTunes service (which will enable to me to get work done while enjoying media) - I'm basically after a whole new rig. I'm thinking about buying a new laptop (OSX) with an iPod, and I travel a fair bit for my work. Does this cover situations where you could be transporting the device temporarily outside of the US and trying to update it over the 'Net?
Is there a way of converting these downloaded songs into a format (ogg/mp3) which doesn't have these restrictions so that I can travel without fear of losing the data?
Thanks!
Euhm, the license tells me something else entirely.. You can't purchase outside of the US, and they are allowed to check if you are outside of the US. But you can listen to music outside of the US, if you bought it in the US.
The license is not that long, use common sense and actually *read* it.
"Using the service" means trying to use the iTunes store. It doesn't mean listening to your music outside of the US. Right now, Apple only has the legal end worked out while you're in the US. It makes sense that they don't want a repeat of the iTunes "sharing" fiasco. What they are saying here is:
IF you attempt to use the service from outside of where they can legally sell you the music, then they MIGHT be able to delete the files you obtained illegally after you download them. WHEN at some later date your country is serviced by iTMS then you can now use the service from that country.
ITunes keeps your authorization offline, and it's a seperate file that you can backup and keep (so you'll be able to play your music even if apple's serves go down). So listening to your music abroad definitely doesn't count as infringement, since no service interaction is required.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. These "tools to detect" are probably somehow worked into iTunes, so it's not like Apple somehow is sneaking spyware into your system. Relax folks. iTMS isn't suddenly evil or anything. I really doubt that even authorizing your laptop while abroad is illegal.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
You're still allowed to burn your tracks to CD for personal use, right? So just do that before you leave. I like having copies of my mp3s on CD anyway, just in case I have any computer problems.
To understand recursion,
you must first understand recursion.
All this is saying is that you may not use the iTunes service outside the US. This is likely not of their own choice, but because of agreements with the record labels that restrict them to distribution in the US.
Furthermore, it says nothing like, "Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S." You're welcome to listen to your music anywhere you please. Read in the proper context, "Apple may use technologies to verify such compliance," obviously means that if Apple detects you using the iTunes service from outside the US, they'll stop you. Is that so harsh?
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
This is just Apple covering their butts regarding export laws. I doubt that they would enforce this in any way unless they were under some legal pressure and wanted to pass the blame on to individuals who did the actual exporting.
You report, Slashdot decides
Prevueing you're poast ownly hellps iff ewe no how two spel inn teh furst plase
--rhad
Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
According to this article: "Canada will be added to the Apple system when the CRIA completes its negotiations in the fall"
CRIA = Canadian Recording Industry Association.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
Stay with me...
"The greatest invention is the thermous. It keeps hot things hot, cold things cold, but how do it know?"
Just so we're not totally US centric here; does this apply in the same way if you buy the songs in let's say the uk and travel to spain or the other way around?
And yes I assume it will be like that, I was just woundering if anyone had any facts to line up about it.
The author of the article claims he reinstalled his powerbook. And tried to redownload his purchased songs after changing his address permantly on both his credit card and iTunes to an outside US address.
Well that doesn't say apple will suddenly disable all your music files if you step out of US soil for say a week or a month.
Apple'sn policies clearly state that you may only purchase songs in the US.
All sales are final etc. If it's a sale, can they unilaterally withdraw the sale based on a spurious interpretation of their terms and conditions?
Even if the licence stipulates you cannot move content outof the U.S. there appears to be no DRM type software "phoning home" or disabling the playback of downloaded mp3's.
emusic.com
The guy that complains about Apple's restrictice licenses not only USED TO WORK FOR MICROSOFT, he also developed MusicDirect.com, a direct competitor to the iTunes Store. (Read it yourself on his Home page.
As the french say: honi soit qui mal y pense. ("shamed be he who thinks evil of it")
This isn't really much of a problem. The first thing I would do with any music I bought from Apple would be to convert everything to MP3 format, by playing the tunes and capturing the music directly from my sound card...
Apple didn't delete his songs. They simply won't allow him to reauthorize his computer with the new address.
From the way I read it, if he hadn't tried to reinstall (necessitating reauthentication in iTunes) he wouldn't have had a problem.
Apple made it pretty clear that this was an USA only thing. I would suggest that the guy have some in the states burn all of his music to CDs. It sounds like he still has the files and still have the ability to play them (if he sets up a computer in the US to do so).
If I bought a cd, would it 'magically' not be able to be played in Canada? I think not. Just another form of out of control restrictions on digital media, and it will undoubtably be the end of the iTunes store.
Perhaps they're just trying to stay legal.
Bah, the license only says you can't BUY the music from iTunes outside the US.
Later in the license, they even give you explicit license to Burn and Export your music. (emphasis mine)
Theres also nothing about taking you're music overseas, just that you buy any new stuff while overseas.
Step 1: Buy the song. Step 2: Set your Sound Blaster to record "What U Hear" mode. Step 3: Use your favourite flavour of sound recorder to make a DRMless copy. Three steps to a Job-less music economy.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ~~ Hunter S. Thompson
What's a "false positive" about it?
Person outside the States? Check.
Credit card registered outside the States? Check.
PowerBook outside the States? Check.
Music bought from iTMS on that PowerBook? Check.
Sorry, but it looks like he was trying to do exactly what Apple said they can't allow you to do - in the first paragraph of their terms of use. Tough.
don't leave the U.S.
Problem solved.
Support Objectivism and the United States,
Ayn Rand
The license doesn't say that you can't listen to that you can't listen to your music from outside the U.S. -- just that you can't purchase songs using their service from outside the U.S..
Not to sound rude, but all you yankees moaning about how this service is limited to the US- at least you get the service to begin with! We're still waiting for a launch in the UK/Europe... And there's a thought- maybe once international liscensing is in place it maybe possible to take your music elsewhere. Everyone seems to be slagging off Apple for introducing a revolution that is "perfect" - but there's no such thing as a bloodshed free revolution. Give Apple some time, voice your opinion/feelings to Apple so they know how you feel, and maybe they'll solve the hitch. Legal hurdles aside, time changes everything... I think.
The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency (Eugene McCarthy)
What does outside the US mean? Can users download only from the 50 states? What about Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands?
If I'm in the military and stationed on a base in Germany, can I use the service?
Read any good sonnets lately?
The logical reaction to this news is to draw the line in the sand at Red Book standard CDs. Don't buy online DRM, don't go for DVD-audio, don't get non-standard CDs. Then rip your own mp3s, oggs, or whatever and put them on your GPS portable along with public domain maps (if possible in your country). There is no reason to forego GPS which is a great feature and getting cheaper all the time.
Dara
Many unsigned musicians provide free downloads of their music on their websites as a way to attract more fans. Here's some from my friend Oliver Brown for example. Many such musicians, while relatively unknown, are as good as any major label band and certainly an improvement over the pablum they serve up on ClearChannel.
You can find many more examples in my new article:
- Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Downloads
The article also explores some of the historical and legal issues behind copyright, and suggests steps the file traders can take to make file sharing legal.If you're a musician who offers downloads of your music, I can link to your band's website from the article if you give my article a reciprocal link. Please follow the instructions given here
Request your free CD of my piano music.
...and by "it" I mean he's not telling the whole truth.
I have iTMS files on my powerbook. I travel internationally at least once a month, and I have *never* experienced a problem. Once the files are on your HD, they play just as they normally would if you were right at "home"
I have a nasty feeling this is some FUD, clear and simple. After all, this isn't an "article" this was an email.
Sigh.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
First of all, his songs were NOT deleted, they were still on his computer, he just couldn't reauthorize his computer using a Canadian address. This is international trade law, not Apple policy or DRM.
This also does NOT mean you can't play or even buy songs off of iTMS from outside the US. It means you must be a US resident and have a US credit card address, which this guy does not.
Read, don't assume.
Slashdot is all well and good but if you want the people who need to know about it to know about it, it should be plastered all over CNN.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This is merely a monopoly/collusion tactic involving Apple and the US Government to make sure American citizens don't switch their citizenship to a country that has no DMCA.
although i can't condone the fact that his songs no longer work, i feel i should point out two things.
1st, no company has yet gotten authorization to distribute musical content outside the US. i'm guessing this is a record label issue.
2nd, in his case he had to reinstall everything. it asked to reverify his address, but he'd changed his address on his credit card. it was Canada now, not the US. not sure what else they could have done. if they sell songs outside of the US, they get in big trouble.
if he hadn't wiped everything, his songs would still be working today.
the "technology" they used to verify he was a US customer was his credit card billing address.
(which makes me think that someone could try a PO box in the US and then get their mail forwarded to Canada and get around the US restriciton)
If you're not happy with their terms, you don't have to purchase from their business. But you won't find friendlier terms anywhere for the quality copyright protected content they're legally providing online. The commercial success of iTunes is an incentive to the record companies to pay attention to online distribution. I'm sure Apple sees it as a step along a path, not the end goal. They're trying to get the ball moving at all, and you're upset that it's not speeding along at 100 mph.
He tried to reauthorize the songs after his billing address has changed to outside the US. If you have a US address, you're fine, no matter where your computer sits. How do I know? I studied in Ireland during the last school year, and I downloaded a number of songs from iTMS, using my US-based credit card with my US-based address.
The moral? The license agreement says you aren't to export the songs. This has nothing to do with DRM - it would still be a breach of contract (thus revoking your license to use the songs) to export the songs even if iTMS was giving you straight MP3s.
I like Apple as much as the next guy (I have a TiBook, G5, iLampShade, and an iPod). However, these draconian licensing terms are the reason I cancelled iTunes after the first week. I've been a happy BuyMusic.com customer ever since they opened. Using standrd wma oversome proprietary format makes the open source zealot in me happy.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
When the license says you can only use the "Service" in the US, it's talking about the Music Store, not iTunes itself. You can listen to your tunes all you want anywhere in the world. What happened to this dude was he tried to re-authorize his computer, and they wouldn't let him since he's in Canada. I would assume that this is just an oversight on Apple's part, that they'll probably fix eventually.
So I have downloaded music from Canadian artists on my achine and I move to Canada and can't play them any more - novel.
You know, the great thing about this is; if you legally purchased the itunes from apple, they might disappear or be deleted; but, if you illegally downloaded them off of kazaa, as long as you lie and say you ripped them and the CDs were stolen, you get to keep them. YAY RIAA, reward piracy. Asshats
Let's get one thing perfectly clear, I did not vote for George W Bush, and I do not endorse what he does or says.
"
If this really happened, sue. The terms of sale say nothing about playing the music as part of "using the service." If they say that authentication is using the service, tell them you had no way of knowing that. And point to the many quotes from Steve Jobs saying this is YOUR music once you pay for it.
iTMS music can be authorized on 3 computers. If you move to an area of the globe not serviced by the iTunes validation servers, just find a friend you trust and ftp/scp/carrier-pigeon your purchased songs over to him. Then get him to authorize his computer on your account (as I said, friend you trust as you are giving them your password). He/She can reencode your songs as mp3s and transfer them back. So now you can play your music. Was that so hard?
That being said...
What's all this mindless chatter about how DRM is evil and how we should boycott companies that use it? DRM is necessary because people have shown the willingness (and in some cases zeal) for stealing material. Apple couldn't have left DRM out if they wanted to get even some indie labels to sign on. Don't blame apple, blame "the man" and the hordes of people who frequent sharing establishments. The fact that apple pushed real hard to allow a more lax DRM than given by other music services speaks volumes. Apple wants you to be able to burn mixes, play on iPods, and share the music between your home and work computers. Sure, its DRM'd and there are a few glitches (ie: out of country), but its the best "the man" will let us do. I'm happy with that for the moment.
BUT you only have to pay for the one song you want, not the 10 crappy filler songs you don't give a shit about.
For 99% of the people, this license will fulfill 99% of their needs while allowing them to avoid 85% of the cost they would otherwise have to pay to listen to a song they like. The benefit here is that mp3 naturally supports the sale of singles in a way that the cd format doesn't.
When is all this silliness going to stop... i can't believe the many peoples time and efforts not alone monies are spent towards the control of something that you can put in you pocket or stash in your drawer.. ie: music.... i seem to recall that in the "ol days" nobody even so much as raised an eyeball if you recorded to tape from the radio....
What is diarrhea?
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Diarrhea can cause dehydration, which means the body lacks enough fluid to function properly. Dehydration is particularly dangerous in children and the elderly, and it must be treated promptly to avoid serious health problems. Dehydration is discussed below.
People of all ages can get diarrhea. The average adult has a bout of diarrhea about four times a year.
[Top]
What causes diarrhea?
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* Viral infections. Many viruses cause diarrhea, including rotavirus, Norwalk virus, cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex virus, and viral hepatitis.
* Food intolerances. Some people are unable to digest a component of food, such as lactose, the sugar found in milk.
* Parasites. Parasites can enter the body through food or water and settle in the digestive system. Parasites that cause diarrhea include Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica, and Cryptosporidium.
* Reaction to medicines, such as antibiotics, blood pressure medications, and antacids containing magnesium.
* Intestinal diseases, like inflammatory bowel disease or celiac disease.
* Functional bowel disorders, such as irritable bowel syndrome, in which the intestines do not work normally.
Some people develop diarrhea after stomach surgery or removal of the gallbladder. The reason may be a change in how quickly food moves through the digestive system after stomach surgery or an increase in bile in the colon that can occur after gallbladder surgery.
In many cases, the cause of diarrhea cannot be found. As long as diarrhea goes away on its own, an extensive search for the cause is not usually necessary.
People who visit foreign countries are at risk for traveler's diarrhea, which is caused by eating food or drinking water contaminated with bacteria, viruses, or, sometimes, parasites. Traveler's diarrhea is a particular problem for people visiting developing countries. Visitors to the United States, Canada, most European countries, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand do not face much risk for traveler's diarrhea.
[Top]
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Diarrhea may be accompanied by cramping abdominal pain, bloating, nausea, or an urgent need to use the bathroom. Depending on the cause, a person may have a fever or bloody stools.
Diarrhea can be either acute (short-term) or chronic (long-term). The acute form, which lasts less than 3 weeks, is usually related to a bacterial, viral, or parasitic infection. Chronic diarrhea lasts more than 3 weeks and is usually related to functional disorders like irritable bowel syndrome or diseases like celiac disease or inflammatory bowel disease.
[Top]
Diarrhea in Children
Children can have acute or chronic forms of diarrhea. Causes include bacteria, viruses, parasites, medications, functional disorders, and food sensitivities. Infection with the rotavirus is the most common cause of acute childhood diarrhea. Rotavirus diarrhea usually resolves in 5 to 8 days.
Medications to treat diarrhea in adults can be dangerous to children and should be given only under a doctor's guidance.
Diarrhea can be dangerous in newborns and infants. In small children, severe diarrhea lasting just a day or two can lead to dehydration. Because a child can die from dehydration within a few days, the main treatment for diarrhea in children is rehydration. Rehydration is disc
How about..
"A DR. m check a day keeps the apple away."
A number of people seem to be commenting on this article as if the songs stop working as soon as a user leaves the US. However, in this case the guy is saying he had to completly reinstall his powerbook and wanted to retrieve his DRM certificate to allow him to use the songs he had purchased, and Apple's policies wouldn't allow this.
So it is a major flaw, but one I suspect that is by accident rather than design. Apple has promised the music industry that it won't allow downloads of songs from outside the US, which this policy enforces. What I suspect that haven't done is work out a way to allow users to keep their existing account but not allow future downloads now they know you aren't in the right geography. They don't do intrusive testing, only when the user in this case informed them they were outside the US (and the service is VERY clear when you have to sign up that you have to be in the US, it's not really small print).
So Apple haven't been as comprehensive in their use case mapping as they should have been, and obviously didn't cover the 0.01% case of customers who move from the US but need to access their existing tunes, loses their key and has no backup. They have however, proved to the copyright owner that their regon specific policies are being enforced, which is the only thing which gives us access to this service at present. If you disagree with them, fine buy CDs, break the law or campaign for change but there are many of us happy with 99% of these terms of service who simply wish the service would be expanded to more geographies and platforms.
For permantent copies, burn an audio CD.
When I first heard of Napster, I quickly downloaded 7 or 8 songs that were old favorites - in all cases I had bought the LPs, but had lost the records or they were damaged. (fair use?) However, I was turned off by some aquaintences collecting thousands of songs that they did not buy.
Not to go off on too big of a rant, but it seems like too many people think that it is OK to break the law: steal music, steal cable TV, let dogs off of leashes where it is not permited and they become public nuisances, etc., etc.
If you think about it, people who steal stuff on the internet might end up contributing to loss of freedom on the internet - not worth it! As multi-national corporations take over media and general control of governments, I believe that keeping the internet free becomes a major concern and goal.
Sorry about being negative, but: isn't it a worry that when large numbers of people break laws, and this data is available to the government, that this is a form of 'crowd control'?
Huge Compound Can Handle 3 Million File Sharing Suspects and Their Supporters
http://www.denounce.com/riaa.html
It isn't like the songs are zapped from your computer... you just have to re-authorize it with american funds? I do plan to travel outside of the US sometime in the next year and I don't think that once I get to flying over international waters that my ipod or ibook will explode. I guess if I were planning to move forever to someplace like that I will backup all of my .plist files that are related to the DRM stuffs that are part of the iTMS DRM stuffs.
This is not a big deal for 99.99% of iTMS users.
For those of us that moved away to Canada... it is punishment for free medical insurance.
--Turvey
I had a flame... but she had a fire.
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Linux fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of an Athlon64 (an XP-3000+) running SuSE for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 500 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my eMac running Mac OS X 10.3, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this PC, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.
In addition, during this file transfer, KDE will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even pico is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Linux distros, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Linux distro that has run faster than its Wintel counterpart, despite the Linuxhead's insistence of open-source efficiency. My eMac 1Ghz with 512 megs of ram runs faster than this 3000 mhz(?) machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that a Linux PC is a superior machine.
Linuxheads, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a GNU/Linux system over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.
From the first paragraph:
"Purchases from the iTunes Music Store are available only in the United States and are not available in any other location. You agree not to use or attempt to use the service from outside of the available territory."
iTunes (a service) is not available outside the U.S. iPods and Apple, to best of my knowledge, do not delete songs if you listen to them outside of the U.S.
The Luddites were ahead of their time.
There is a disheartening shortage of truth in these comments. There's some, but too little.
Let me try to up the truth-to-bullshit ratio a little.
1. There are three parts to an iTunes Music Store transaction: selecting and buying the music, downloading the music, authorizing the music once it's been downloaded.
2. These three things can only be done in the United States, for licensing reasons. (iTunes Music Store doesn't have permission to sell music overseas yet.) The way Apple checks this is by looking at the billing address on your credit card. If it's a US address, you're cool. If it's not, you're not.
3. Normally, all three of these happen in one step: you click "BUY" and the rest happens automatically.
4. When you move your music to a new machine (as this person effectively did), you have to authorize it. You may only authorize music, as stated in #2, if the billing address on your credit card is inside the United States.
5. The solution? Several.
5a. Burn your purchased music to CD. Always, always, always. It should be the first thing you do. Just select it and click that big, inviting "Burn" button.
5b. If you failed to do 5a, call Apple. The situation described here is obviously not how the system is supposed to work, so Apple customer support will undoubtedly fall all over themselves making things right. Either Shawn Yeager didn't ask, or he asked very rudely. (From the snide tone of his email, I'm betting it was #2.)
5c. Failing 5b, send your music to a friend in the United States and let him authorize it for his computer, then converted it to unprotected m4a files. As long as you don't have the music authorized on three computers already, this will work fine.
5d. Copy the songs to your iPod. The iPod ignores m4p protection.
5e. Last but not least, just change one of your credit cards to a US address, use it to authorize your music, and then burn your music to CD.
The moral of the story? Uh... there is no moral. This is a non-event.
the laws that prevent you from copying, printing and distributing those songs may or may not even exist. Thus the record companies made this a part of the agreement. Only countries that have a US-record-company-approved DCMA or equivalent are likely to be able to use this service.
...vividly encapsulates that post-Watergate/pre-punk/coked-up moment when you could trust no one, least of all yourself.
I've got an IPOD. And I backup my tunes to my server. Sure if you mount the IPOd you don't see the directory. But if your a unix weenie like me you will also know that a file starting with a . is invisable without the .A option!!!! So I have a script that copies all my MPEG files to the local disk. Sure... let ITUNES nuke me. I've got backup. ... you are better off converting the Itunes mpeg4 format to mpeg3, and you can do that with Linux and OS/X utilities.
A good portion of my collection is my own CDS collection and I ripped the mp3s at 320k. Does Apple
actually think the tunes are just for my IPOD? I use the Tunes one my Nero-35 as well. I've got a Nero-35 in my Stereo rack and the IPOD is for my
truck. Also
The idea that Apple somehow remotely deleted his songs is utter bullshit. Read the article. He reinstalled his system, thus erasing at the very least Apple's authorization token. He attempted to re-authorize his computer using a Canadian credit card, which Apple does not permit and has been very open about not permitting. This is like moving to the UK, breaking your old R1 DVD player, buying a new one at the store down the block, and complaining that its PAL signal won't work with the rest of your legacy equipment.
This is actually a surprisingly insightful. I've seen statistics that put the number of U.S. passport holders at about 50%. The passport office only issues 5 to 7 million passports a year. I'd imagine the number of Americans who never, ever leave the country is pretty damn high. Sad, really.
I'm sure I'll get modded into oblivion by the Macintosh Jihad, but is anyone else amazed by the way that Apple apologists come out of the woodwork to defend Apple whenever one of the usual Slashdot hot button issues arise in conjunction with Apple?
If this story had run in relation to BuyMusic.Com, there would be an army of raging Slashdotters cutting Buy.Com into tiny bits and incinerating them, but when it's Apple/Mac/iTunes, there's this chorus of Apple defenders that comes out of the woodwork.
The only way I can explain this is that the Mac users aren't the ones griping in regard to most DRM issues, they're actually supportive of "soft" DRM. Although whenever there's a negative story about Windows DRM, we hear a lot of people chanting "iTunes, Mix, Rip Burn" in the background, so maybe that's not true.
But it is kind of ironic.
Vis has a point, however, in this article(e-mail?), he is referencing the acquisition of his music from the iTMS servers after a reload of his OS. I think he is trying to indicate that your purchases from iTMS may not be as permanent as some plastic beer coasters. Microsoft in a nutshell: --I get everything I want when I get part of you-- --NiN--
"this is the gloaming"
radiohead
And iTunes seemed like such a positive step. Thanks, Apple.
.mx mask.
Oh please. It's just fine print to prevent export abuse. Remember, RIAA has lots of jurisdiction over ITMS and ultimately greenlighted it.
With that said, I've traveled to Ensenada, Baja, Mexico with my Powerbook which contained bunch of AAC tunes purchased from ITMS. Absolutely nothing happened, considering I've connected to the net from there under
This article is just nitpicking. Wait till we hear the full story from Apple and other respected news sources before jumping on the "Apple is just like Microsoft" bandwagon.
Now I know why my iPod went silent 20 minutes into a flight from NYC to London.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
for the time being... ;)
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Here I am typing this on my shiny new 17" Powerbook (which is great so far BTW)...thinking that this is something that Apple really needs to fix.
According to the terms of this license, I shouldn't be able to listen to the songs if I take a trip outside the U.S. That's not "Insanely Great" just "Insane". It has "Record Company" written all over it.
Heaven forfend that GPS be integrated with Powerbook or iPod...
The good news is that music ripped from CD is immune from this nonsense...so go get those good-condition, used CDs. That is a market force the recording industry seems to ignore quite a bit. I've been ripping my CD collection, the iPod is also very cool.
What the music industry really needs is some good new music. ;-)
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
Convert your ITUNES to MP3. My IPOD plays mp3 just fine! And backup your IPOD! NO DRM is needed to play mp3 tunes!
Dear Slashdot,
I just bought a DVD here in the US and when I returned to my home in France/Japan/Australia it wouldn't play.
The only new thing here is now the media of the data. Instead of a being on a DVD it's on a hard disk.
Sorry, this battle was already lost when regional encoding was introduced with DVDs. Can't put the genie back in the bottle now...the time to fight has passed.
Jeez people, its called Covering Your Ass. When you are selling a service to millions of people you need to put things like this in, because America is so damn sue happy, the RIAA being no exception.
I could probably find something disturbing in the licensing of every product I own. Does that mean Im going to stop buying online music, toasters, cars and internet access?
I would soil myself if I saw Apple deliberately investigating every single song they sold to see if someone took their iPod to Montral for a weekend.
Dont we have something better to worry about? What happened to monkey pox? The defecit? Microsoft?
"Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines."
Read the article. He did "go back and forth with AMS support." Fortunately for you, the moderators didn't read the article either.
It's true that not a whole lot of the US population leave the US in a lifetime, but as a former expatriate there are definitely more than you probably suspect.
I'm one of those people who has spent a lot of time traveling from one country to another. I know many who have lived abroad all their life. And this whole DRM thing and related technologies is really starting to screw us in now. Take DVD regional encoding.
My parents, not aware of the different region codings have bought movies here in the States, as well as in other parts of Asia. And now their modest collection of movies from the US cannot be played on their dvd player because of these restrictions. Friends that have purchased computers here and then moved abroad can't watch locally purchased dvd's on their computers. Fortunately for them these people haven't jumped on the Apple Music Store.
As more people move about the world, this whole regional coding thing and licensed ownership according to country is just going to hinder the technology. Not help it.
I not only used the iTunes music store from Taiwan when visiting there, but I set up my account and purchased all my first songs there. All you need is a *billing* address in the US that matches your name, and APple will leavce you alone. Slander!
JC "What"
*Snort!* Ha ha! For those Irish-deficients who don't know the legend, leprechaun gold has a tendency to dissappear when you try to get your hands on it.
sorry, while I was posting, a whole lot of posts were placed which make mine redundant. if you actually took the time to read this, you are either a sad human being, a sadist, or at work. In all cases, I feel your pain. >:)
Microsoft in a nutshell:
--I am the end of all your dreams--
-NiN
"this is the gloaming"
radiohead
If you live outside the USA, you'll already be well aware of this. The bulk of online music and movie providers are only licensed for US distribution, and everyone else is told to get stuffed.
This is no different from the US getting movies and Region 1 DVDs first, and those who live outside the USA are well used to working around these restrictions. My primary consideration when buying a DVD player was "Is it region free/easy to switch to region 1?", and I regularly buy region 1 DVDs, usually well before and for less money than the region 2 release.
Similarly, I'd have no qualms about using a US based HTTP proxy to obtain music or movies from US licensed sites,then I'd make damn sure to convert it to a non-crippled format before considering the transaction complete.
But given that I don't even have the option to pay for it, and that I'd have to "scam" them to get it, that's not very likely, is it? So, what's my incentive to stop sharing?
Sorry, US buddies, but this is just a case of getting a taste of what it's like for the rest of us. Sucks, doesn't it?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
BUT not the copyright holders of the premium, quality songs you probably want. Indies and small labels sell unrestricted MP3s. The huge record companies don't. As is their prerogative. If you want to buy 'Hotel California' for some specific reason and don't want to buy a whole Eagles cd for $16, you aren't going to find a legal MP3 version of it for sale. So your choice is copy it illegally, or buy the iTunes version for cheap. Your choice, but I think a lot of people appreciate having the choice of something over nothing.
I'm not sure how actively this is enforced. This first two songs I bought from iTMS were from an internet connection in Nigeria - I think the uplink went to somewhere in Ghana or Eastern Europe. At first with iTunes 4.0 I was unable to do the actual downloading, but the "controversial" 4.01 upgrade (that prevented streaming outside a local subnet) allowed me to download the songs I had purchased from the store. I assumed this meant that you needed only to hav a credit card billing address in the States, not to actually be there.
Then again I never read the license.
Alright, who let a dammned PWRRer in here?
No DRM == no iTunes, period.
And in Apple's defense, at least this was very clearly spelled out in the terms -- in the first paragraph, no less.
Yet another reason to buy an iPod. My iPod never knows where it is.
I often whistle or hum tunes while I play my iPod.
I don't want to run the risk of freely distributing the tunes, breaking the law and having them deleted to people who haven't purcahsed the songs. Please plug your ears when I walk buy. I will wear a shirt to advertise my presence encouraging everyone not to listen.
funny, when i bought $25 worth of songs, i assumed i owned them. to ensure that i do, i simply bypassed the AAC protection and converted them to MP3s...
To me the license is ambiguous: does the "service" consist of the act of purchasing, or does it include the act of re-authorization in the event that it's needed? Given that the audience using iTunes includes everybody and not just lawyers or techobuffs, it's somewhat of a stretch to expect them to even understand the implications of not being able to purchase outside the US - not because it's hard to read or parrot back, but because of mom and pop's failure to mentally associate location-based restrictions with net transactions. And an even further stretch for them to expect them to comprehend the need for re-authorization and it's potential implications.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
...laught at me when i wraped even my socks on tinfoil.
:/ its not translucid.
If theres any typo on this post, well, its one of the problems with tinfoil
What bothers me is that this person paid for and downloaded music from Apple. He doesn't say explicitly, but he infers he was not trying to buy more music, just listen to what he had already bought, and after "reauthorization" it either disabled or deleted his purchased music. This would mean that Apple considers anyone playing music purchased from them to be actively using their service, even if they are not connected to it.
What happens if I buy 100 songs, and then cancel my account with the music store? Will I lose the ability to play those songs? Does Apple consider that I am still using their service even if I have cancelled my account with their service?
I wasn't able to find the TOS easily, looks like you have to sign up to see it. But, from what appears to have been pasted, the customer is restricted from actively using the service, which implies that the user may not purchase new songs.
It did not seem to include playing music previously purchased. Can someone with the TOS post a link to it or at least cut-and-paste the parts that relate to this issue?
Is Apple interpreting their TOS to include user activity while not connected to Apple? Is simply using the Apple computer and software to listen to purchased music considered part of what they offer?
Usually, in order to "use a service" there is some form of connection involved during the use, either event driven messages back and forth or constant link. Does Apple's software send information to Apple for each song you play?
I can accept, and it makes a lot of sense, not to allow songs to be delivered to users outside of the US for various legal reasons. It would also cut down on cc fraud by not allowing US accounts to download music outside of the US. I can also accept not allowing new accounts to be created if the user is outside the US. But to disable purchased music, preventing the purchaser the ability to listen to it?
IF the music was "rented" or "allowed to be played as part of the service" it would be one thing, however, since Apple's own web site says "Buy it" or "Buy song" certain ownership rights are implied. When you buy something you usually have certain ownership rights. I wonder if deleting or disabling something after it has been boughtconstitutes any form of criminal or civil fraud. Software companies wanted this ability, and UCITA (or was it UTICA?) would have given it to them, but I thought only a small number of states actually passed laws that let that happen.
Apple's web site also mentions ability to create music CDs that you listen to in your car, etc. from the songs you download. They can't disable those CDs, and they are giving you the ability to create a CD single just as if you had bought it in the store, further enforcing the concept of "ownership" for the purchased song. ["Ownership" in this case means right to listen to song on any equipment you choose and in the method you choose, not ownership in that you can give away copies.] Apples disabling of the songs (or deleting them) is inconsistent with the rest of their service. That inconsistancy would seem to be important if someone were going to pursue this (IANAL, so I may be full of it, wouldn't be the first time).
I'm really curious (and amazed and aghast) at this turn of events and Apple's response, if any.
I can certainly see Apple needing some of these restrictions. I guess now we know why the *AAs have been pretty quiet about Apple's music store. I just attributed their silence to a lack of selection of music represented by the *AA, but given this, and some of what I read on Apple's web page today, it looks like Apple negotiated something with them already. Which is fine, would make good business sense, and if true would mean those wanting to boycott *AA may have to boycott iMS too. Anyone know?
And here I've been planning to get a nice new shiny Mac, OS-X, and iPod (would have been my first Mac). I will definitely be watching this and consider the outcome here before I make any purchase. I'll probably just stick to cheaper non-Apple hardware and Windoze when necessary and Linux the rest of the time.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
Ok, so it's friday and I'm screwing up things at work left and right due to complete stupidity, so let's see if I can forward that momentum right into my slashdot post:
Any way you can keep an old address on a credit card, even if you leave the states? Just somehow deny or forward the paper bills and pay everything online... problem solved (?)
-n-
No - if larger numbers of people break laws, then the laws are probably wrong. Very few people kill others, even in societies where murder is not actually a legal crime.
Personally, I consider the right to know information, receive information from the environment, and pass on information by its introduction to the environment basic human rights necessary for cooperative learning and intelligence.
Copyright is obviously incompatible with such a belief, since it represents a restriction on the replication of information from one party to another at the whim of a third party. I DON'T CARE if the third party or the current legal systems feels he's got a right to restrict duplication of information since he came up with it.
Make no mistake, all restriction of information is mind-control, and the only good cure for "false" information is more "true" information, not less information.
The only thing I like less than copyprivilege is patenting - a restriction on the use of information even though you know it! Argh!
First of all, read the damn article.
Most of you haven't even read the article and already condemning the ITMS. Like some have said, the guy deleted his songs, changed his address to a non US address, and tried to download the songs again!
Second, that whole "iTMS songs won't play outside the US" is BULLSHIT. I've been outside the US many times and my songs play on my powerbook just fine... nothing deleted... no errors.. even when i'm hooked up to the internet!
I thought slashdotters were smart people.. always skeptical about new news. I guess you guys just believe everything you see, just like every other lemming out there.
I am in Germany/Switzerland as well. And last I remember the parent poster was right. Sure they can say you want to do it. But DVD players come in all shapes and sizes. Popular are the ones without region encoding, like the one sitting in front of me...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
our copyright laws are different.
In the Canadian Copyright Act, there is a provision for collecting a levy on blank audio recording media. Because of this, there is also a provision for private copying (Part VIII).
Basically, in Canada, it is legal to make a copy of music that you don't own if it will be used exclusively for personal purposes.
IANAL, but I interpret this as meaning that downloading music from Kazaa (and not sharing it) is legal.
So, who needs iTunes in Canada?
Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S
This is irresponsible reporting par exellence. One fool gets confused and sends an email out. It gets spotted, the misunderstanding is perpetuated, and it's submitted to Slashdot. Slashdot puts the submission up with the alarmist tone (see above) intact. A few rational people explain what's really going on. A lot more irrational people start freaking out. Overall, this article just does harm to the iTMS when it simply doesn't deserve it. And how is this going to be redressed? Through another main-page post that REALLY explains the situation? I doubt it, but mud sticks - whether it deserved to be thrown or not.
Please?
You can't get there from here in Jersey...great song about driving in NJ.
Featured on NPR's Car Talk radio show and their car tunes CD: "You Can't Get There from Here in Jersey - Jason Didner Though it's about New Jersey, Jason's ode could apply to every overdeveloped highway in every sprawling suburb, everywhere. And, yes, Jason does live in New Jersey (Exit 159)."
$8.95/mo web hosting
"steal music"
It's copyright infringement, not stealing you RIAA hag.
I wouldn't mind if they rigged it so that it would delete music acquired outside the US upon my return home. That way I could ensure that any Celine Dion songs that my wife acquired in Canada would be gone when we return home from vacation.
> If you think about it, people who steal stuff on the internet might end up contributing to loss of freedom on the internet - not worth it! As multi-national corporations take over media and general control of governments, I believe that keeping the internet free becomes a major concern and goal.
Maybe it's strange that I consider freedom to access art a.. freedom, but... What's the point of being free to do something if, when you do that thing, you lose the freedom? Wouldn't that mean that you're not really free to do it in the first place?
It's those four-letter organizations that are pushing DRM, and suing "violators" that are taking away our freedoms, not us.
what does that tell you about his service, if he frequently patronizes iTunes!
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Yeah, low-down, sneaky little bastid. Trying to play music he'd already paid for instead of downloading it for free via p2p. That'll teach him!
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
When I, from Sweden, open up iTunes Music Store it tells me:
...could be that Apple must consider customs regulations in Europe... and selling to me would be illegal export.
The iTunes Music Store is not available in your country yet. You will be able to browse music and listen to previews, but you won't be able to purchase music unless your billing address is in the United States.
Me thinks:
"yet" indicates the service will come to me. Thus it does not make sense they hunt me down now.
"unless your billing address is in the United States" indicates that if I just provide a proper billing address they dont care where or who I am.
is there any way we can tell if this was something apple wanted to restrict their users from doing, or is it something the RIAA made them do?
the music store does not only carry independent music. i don't believe the RIAA had no say in the terms by which the the service is provided. i am typing this on a windows machine and not a mac, but i still think apple is "innocent" of this
Does anyone honestly believe that Apple has any REAL control of the iTunes Music Store? Agreements with the record labels had to be made. This is above all else, a money making venture, a software service to which Apple excels. And just to remind everyone, the reason we have DRM today is because people abused digital media in the past, and there is ample evidence to support that argument. Apple gives us more freedom than most, but just because it has approximately 4% market share doesn't mean the record labels give away all that freedom to the independently thinking few. When iTunes 4.0 was released, many people abused the internet file sharing feature and Apple taketh away.
Fired-Up alright... like the time we burnt down the White House in the war of 1812!
Backup the AAC files. Burning to CD would require you to recompress to put back into another typical format (mp3, aac, ogg, etc). It would be better to burn the files themselves to a CD, preserving your original download. AND you'd be able to fit more on a CD.
Just a thought.
-Alex
Everyone talks about how the Music Industry's business model is outdated and needs to be changed to reflect the modern technology which exists around us. I think most slashdot readers would agree that classic music licensing schemes and sales models are rapidly becoming outdated.
By the same token, then, don't we need to update our expectations and buying models, as consumers? We can't insist on totally new business models without being willing to adapt to them ourselves.
It seems strange to me that everyone is so rabidly against DRM, when quite frankly anyone thinking about it comes to the conclusion that without it, some pretty ridiculous situations can result. Just because people do not, right now, ruin a band by trading its songs on services does not mean at some future point a service will become so ubiquitous and easy that it couldn't happen. Everyone forgets that the band AND the distributor need to make money.
Not to say I agree with all DRM. Oftentimes it seems like people go too far to the restrictive edge, "You can only use your music with headphones while a RIAA exec standing over you with a shotgun wards people off." I find Apple's DRM to be very reasonable, and it's also the kind of DRM that, should Apple finally kick the bucket, could be extended by another solution, even if the authorization service changes.
The poor fellow who's message is the subject of this article changed his home address to a foreign address. iTunes has no other way to tell if you're in a foreign country. I'm surprised it didn't let him authorize, but I am not surprised that it used that data to exclude him from using the iTMS. I'm sure that the situation will be rectified shortly. Apple can't afford to rampantly piss people off, and if you look at their decisions over the last 3 years you'll see in general their model has been consistant with that.
So please, Anonymous friend, instead of ceaslessly complaining about the end of an era, why not try and help shape the face of these new business models. We're at an amazing point as our society slowly beings to adopt digital media and computing on a mass scale. We've got a responsibility to make sure things turn out in a way that's equitable to everyone.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
From the blurb:
"Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S."
Talk about sensationalism. The article in no way mentions that the files were deleted. They just wouldn't play. Sheesh.
Are you sure that foreign soil doesn't have its own laws against it? Stay off the soil; stick to the high seas for your "piracy".
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Everyone knows that only terrorists would want to leave the USA. You're not a terrorist, are you?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I totally support the anti-copyright movement (if that is the right term).
I have two free web books that I publish under a Creative Commons license (and a 3rd in progress).
However, as a producer of material, I choose to give it away. I was the "featured commoner" a few weeks ago :-)
A major problem in the U.S. (and Europe also, I think) will be the limitations of freedom to access information - I believe that this will be an unfortunate fallout of collapsing economies, governments panic'ing and trying to maintain control, etc.
Anyway, thanks for your comments.
The DVD players I've seen in the big shops here all have region code 2. If you want a code free player, you'll have to download some firmware update. As it would be impossible to close all web sites with that firmware, the law cannot really be enforced. But they went after people who were selling region 1-DVDs, even through this shouldn't be illega.
The solution to the quality loss when ripping mp3's is to burn to CD and then rip back to AAC, which shouldn't cause any loss in quality because it is the same compression scheme that you started out with. The only thing that will be different is that the DRM will have been erased.
Presumably if you burn the plain AAC files, they will still have the DRM on, and won't work.
Microsoft whore who built a DRM-crippled music store gets bitten by DRM. Ah, such delightful irony.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
re: freedom to access art:
I do pay to visit art museums - I will probably take some heat for this, but museums that own art do not have to make digital images available for free on the web - but it would serve the interests of society if they did.
I like to find 'art', etc. on the web that is available. I especially like it when universities web publish high quality images of old scrolls, etc.
re: the music business:
everyone knows that in general the music business sucks: the best advice to musicians is probably to not sign any deals with record companies, and self promote their own CDs at their concerts.
That said, I still believe that Apple has walked a fine line (fairly well) for providing an online music service that I am having fun with.
Thanks for your comments.
I just looked over the license (albeit really quickly) and saw nothing about deleting files. Also, at least the way I read it, this seems to really be applied only to connecting to the iTunes store. Not to playing music you've already downloaded.
This basically seems to say, 'to connect to iTunes you need to be situated in the US." Which probably makes sense when you talk about legal jurisdictions.
But, like I said, I only scanned through things real quicklike.
So the question to be asked is what file is erased when you do a format-install such that your computer is deauthorized? Couldn't I just backup my home folder and not worry about being deauthorized? Anyone care to investigate? I'd hate to have to do a clean install in 20 years when Apple no longer has the licensing servers and lose all my music. On the other hand, reencoding to MP3 isn't all that horrible.
--Jim (me)
oh slashdot... how you bore me these days.
Just think, you are just crossing the border with a few CDs and ZAP! A huge laser blast from orbit evaporates your CD collection!
And everything else within an audible radius.
Shut up you dick.
or thereaboots
Get a $60 apex player with component outs and flash the ROM-- no region coding, no macrovision, and you can put in your own graphics with a little bit of work.
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
You're not even allowed to make left turns!
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
1.) You can't reauthorize songs you purchaed if you move out of the country.
2.) You can't listen to them on anything that can't run iTunes (Macs, and soon Windows).
3.) You are dependent on the continued existence of Apple to be able to authorize the playback of them.
Yes, I know that you can burn them to CDs but those CDs will not sound as good as the ones you buy in the stores, unless you have poor hearing. In my opinion, CDs are still the best option, although copy protection threatens those of us who like to listen to them on open source
Vinyl LP!! You can not rip music from it. I'm sure they will figure out a way to add some sort of macrovision. This is the answer for those poor record execs who can only afford a Bentley this year due to poor sales.
Does this mean they will start to put region codes on vinyl LPs? How would you deal with the portable 45 player?
If only Bill Gates had a penny for every time Windows crashed... oh wait.. he does!
Always strip the DRM from the files you 'buy' - duh. (Ooops - you can't do that with BuyMusic - sorry)
Music is overpriced: $17 - $20 for a CD is outrageous. DVDs cost much more to produce and have higher quality content...yet only cost $5 to $10 more than an audio CD.
Bad music is bundled with good music: Anyone who has bought a CD with one or two good songs knows he/she was forced into buying all the crap to have that one good song.
There is no legal way to buy unrestricted music: Music consumers want to play their purchased music on any device they see fit. They purchased the music, why shouldn't it be playable on any device they own? - not just a limited number of devices.
Piracy is not the problem: Piracy is a symptom of a market need that is unmet. Much like the speakeasys of the prohibition, when consumers want something, there will ALWAYS be someone to fill that demand. Right now, the only way to get reasonably priced, unrestricted music is to download it or copy it from someone else.
Until these problems are fixed, the music industry will always be fighting an uphill battle.
-ted
...we hear a lot of people chanting "iTunes, Mix, Rip Burn" in the background, so maybe that's not true.
That's because iTunes actually lets you Burn your music. Can the same be said for WMA based services? Maybe sometimes, depending on the phase of the moon and the position of the stars.
They can verify that you don't use the service from outside the US. That has little to do with using the songs outside the US. As long as I live in the US, and only use the serivce from within the US, what have I got to worry about? Playing back the songs I've purchased does not invlolve using the service at all.
There's no DRM on user-encoded AAC files, either, you know. The DRM is present for purchased AAC files from the iTunes Music Store.
Of course, you could burn your purchased songs to a CD and then re-rip them as AACs or MP3s, but that's a pain in the ass, and produces lower-quality files.
DRM is necessary because people have shown the willingness (and in some cases zeal) for stealing material.
/.ers take on the law, but what else do you call taking something for free when it's a product being sold by a company? Especially when that company owns the *copyrights* to the material? We never hear about "book pirates" here on /. but it would amount to exactly the same thing. If someone were to distribute the text of a book online, it is exactly the same as sharing a copyrighted mp3. It's giving people something for nothing, regardless if they "wouldn't have bought it in the first place." DRM is a viable way to prevent unauthorized distribution (read: p2p) of *copyrighted* materials.
What a great point. So often, people around here get tied up in ranting, raving and denouncing the evil RIAA that they forget this little detail: we gave the RIAA a reason to act the way they do. Sure, not every action they do can be excused by this, but c'mon... They have every right to go after people sharing *copyrighted* songs on p2p networks. The word stealing may not line up exactly with many
Now, for my disclaimer. Can DRM be abused? Absolutely. And very easily. It's up to us as consumers to police this. We need to respect the companies right to protect their product from theft (yes, theft), while at the same time ensuring that they provide the services we ask for, and allow us to exercise our fair use rights.
You tought you were buying the music on the CD: Bzzzzt, wrong!
You tought you were buying the CD: Bzzzzt, wrong!
You tought you were buying the right to listen to the music on the CD: Bzzzzt, wrong!
Now, you buy the right to listen the music on the CD, but only in certain conditions, which if they change may suppress this payed-for right.
I'm usually not this kind of guy, but in front of such a stupid idea, I say "Fuckwits all of those labels, back to ripping so said protected CDs to ogg/mp3!
good for you, go trust the nice man on the telephone who wants to *verify* all your credit card numbers to see if one of them is lucky.
MABASPLOOM!
What is really bugging me is how some of these posts keep saying: Oh the DRM in the iTunes Store: it's the RIAA.... not Apple, they're innocent.
I hate to break it you people but the RIAA had nothing to do with the iTunes music store... Apple came up with the DRM in house, and Apple worked directly with specific publishers.
I know you cannot believe that Apple actually came up with DRM... but lest we forget, Apple was the original computer monopoly.
So you can blame the RIAA all you want, but ultimately it was Apple's doing-- as hard as it may be for you to swallow.
It never says the files were deleted. It just says the information that authorized his computer to play those files he purchased was lost during the reinstall and because he moved out of the US he was not able to get the authorization rights for said files. They were not deleted.
Once again, my favorite game quote:
"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last loose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
-- Commissioner Pravin Lal, "Librarian's Preface"
You cannot lump copyright infringement and dogs off leashes in the same category!!!
That I took my iPod to London.
The CB App. What's your 20?
Actually I've heard that foreign students choose Canada over the US because it's supposed to be the easiest and most useful dialect of English to learn. There is significantly less variation in accent throughout Canada than any other major English country (eg: Texas vs. the Bronx, Cornwall vs. Scotland) and Canadian English is supposedly easier to understand by people with other English accents and even easier to learn for non-English speakers. I have no idea if there's truth to any of this, but I've heard it more than once...
Permission to download stuff
Permission to play stuff once downloaded
Those two permissions should clearly be separable, as in the case of the guy who moved outside of the USA. Apple can't give him permission to download any more (the record labels won't let them), but there should be a way for them to give him permission to play stuff he already owns.
The non-separability of those permissions is a bug in iTunes. Let's see how long it takes Apple to fix it.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
I most wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, I think this is probably a bug, not an explicit decision. So long as the music was bought in the US, authorization should be allowed even in foreign countries even with foreign addresses, so long as the billing address is in the US.
I really don't think this is the same issue. The reason DVD's have region coding is (ostensibly) because the DVD for a movie may come out in the US before even a theatrical release in a foreign market. Australia is a great example for this. If you could buy the widescreen, special edition DVD of the movie instead of going to the theatrical release in your country, you might be less tempted to go to the theater.
As I'm rapidly becoming fond of saying in this thread, you have a chance to change it. Don't get to worried about the **AA's reflexive gestures as they begin this adoption. Just smile, calmly and efficaciously tell them "No. That is not the way consumers will allow it." Do try to remember that we need to be reasonable though. The idea of locking a media file to an owner who paid for it isn't an intrinsically evil concept, and shouldn't be treated as such.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
I don't think losing a cd or record is grounds to go download someone elses copy of it.
Case in Point: I lost my Half-Life cd and key about two years ago. Does that give me the right to download Half-Life from Kazaa?
Also, if I lose my precious kazoo, does that give me the right to get one for three cents on the black market? I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure it's almost the same thing as what you describe.
If you want to get really picky, the fact that you own the source material does not justify downloading it in another form. The lp mp3's you got were likely from cd reproductions. Cd reproductions which you did not purchase, I might ad. So in reality, you are just stealing lots of stuff that you legally should be paying for.
To me, the whole 'sharing' music thing really only applies if what YOU're sharing is a physical, purchased legal copy, as in giving someone your BOUGHT cd to make a copy for personal use. That person has little right to share his newfound copy of your music.
Itunes looks to change this and make dl'd artist music legal, so I think it's not a bad thing that they are getting legalistic about it, they are the only ones who seem to stand a chance.
(sorry for being offtopic, but it had to be said, it really did.)
Many Thanks,
Luke
Of course they have close ties: what kind of idiot would run a backbone through Northern Ontario when you could go through Chicago and Detroit? Supposedly there are so few big Canadian bands out of the West because the bus ride from Winnipeg to Ottawa introduces so much latency as to trigger a timeout.
Why not requre all DRM'd content to be distributed as "Leased" instead of "Owned"? IANAL but wouldn't this more closely fit the DRM model?
To me, it seems that the problem is as follows: The iTMS probably has only two "statuses", either you're in the US and everything is just fine, or you're not and you're not allowed to interact with the store at all.
The case here is that the music you have purchased should be reauthenticated, as you have already purchased the licence and there is nothing in their ToS that can revoke that. However, you should not be able to use the store as a resident of Canada.
The ToS explicitly grants you the following right "You shall be entitled to burn and export Products solely for personal, non-commercial use." As such, you have a legally valid licence even when residing in Canada, and if they will not honor the licence they are in violation of the ToS.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
...development and technology professionals tasked with answering Netscape's threat to Microsoft's dominance in desktop and server technology.
http://shawnyeager.com/WorkOverview
Poor Fellow. He had it tough back then.
Cheers, Nostrada
The G5 is the fastest PC on earth. ipod is the greatest player ever. One button on a mouse is enough for anybody. OS 9 is the most stable OS every thought up. Apple is shoving a hot poker up my ass, but its for my own good.
It feels good to blindly follow Apple. It removes that last bit of doubt.
"Purchases from the iTunes Music Store are available only in the United States and are not available in any other location. You agree not to use or attempt to use the service from outside of the available territory. Apple may use technologies to verify such compliance."
Well... I'd say he didn't try to buy songs from outside the US, he tried to reauthorise his machine. This is a tricky one.
I would interprate the clause that you are allowed to purchase music within the US, only. But nothing more. He didn't try to purchase anything.
I'd wonder, shall I disable those CDs I bought in Estonia, that say "Not for Sale in the EU". What about all the Estonians, what shall they do when they join the Union.
I know that the IPO/RIAA/(RIAE?) will rejoice when all Estonians have to purchase their discs again.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
At $1 a song, that means a typical album costs $11.
For for that you get:
1) Music that is less quality than the CD. You can't argue that point.
2) Restrictions on what you can do with your music that aren't there on the CD
3) No liner notes, lyrics, nothing that will survive a hard disk crash.
Sonny boy, take my advice and buy used CD's. Its cheaper, and better.
I realize you have to get past your 8-year-old mentality of "I want it NOW!", but its worth the wait.
I've actually BOUGHT two songs from iTMS while physically located in Germany. I have a U.S. credit card billing address and .mac address, and I think that's all it checks.
" BUT you only have to pay for the one song you want, not the 10 crappy filler songs you don't give a shit about.
"
So you're a top-ten kind of guy? If a band sucks so much that they only have one song worth listening to, then its a good bet the one you think you like sucks too.
In other words, you have no musical taste.
It's fun watching the applebots getting shafted by apple time and time again, yet never failing to apologize apple and reassume their bent over position
"But you won't find friendlier terms anywhere for the quality copyright protected content "
Yes. Go to the local record store and buy used CD's.
I realize that forces you out of the childish "I want it now!" attitude, but maybe its time you grew up anyway.
You can't "re-download" files on the iTunes Music Store. If you lose the file, you have lost the song. Apple have made this well documented.
Deleting a file you've bought from the iTMS caused the same result as snapping a purchased music CD in half - you no longer have the music.
As a consumer, I don't take part in business models. I simply buy stuff that appeals to me.
Lets take the CD. Its not so bad. It has good sound, its small, its a little fragile but not terrible. I can make a backup to avoid scratches, and I can sell when I'm tired of it.
Now, generally, if someone will sell me something *better*, then I'll buy it. So lets talk iTunes music store.
Its convenient. Sound is mediocre. I can't listen to it readily in my car unless I change formats. And I can't sell it if I get tired of it. Cost is roughly the same (in the US) if you consider a full CD minus the packaging.
So in exchange for immediate gratification, I get tons of restrictions on what I can do with the music. I can't loan it to a friend. I can't listen to it in my car. I can't sell it when I'm done with it. I'm renting my music in this case.
So where's my benefit? That I can buy singles? Singles were plentiful up until 10 years ago. So the record companies bring back the single and you're spooging over yourself? Please. Its a worse deal for the consumer. The service has all the earmarks of something for 20-somethings with too much debt and too little common sense.
:) j/king
Sure you can play them mechanically, but is it legal to import them into the country?
Sounds silly, but there ARE rules... is this one of them perhaps?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The conditions of use just say that you can't "use the service" from outside the US. I would argue that purchasing the songs would be considered using the service but listening to them would not be. It's too bad that Apple is taking the wider approach here.
A friend of mine owns a smallish record label and we talk about his business quite a bit. He sold the international rights to parts of his companies collection to other companies, it happens all the time. Because of this APPLE HAS to have country level restrictions. If a seperate entity owns the rights to distribute or publish some works in another country apple would be infringing upon those rights if they did sell the file INTO those countries. Instant lawsuit! I'm sure the situation will be worked out, however... It's going to take some time.
I've seen that signature a few times, and I don't get it. (seriously)
This is stupid. You can't use the iTunes Music Store unless you have a credit card associated with a US address. So he should have known that. More important he should know you should back up files in a readable format before reinstalling. In the case of AAC protected files that means burning a CD.
What he did is the equivalent of losing the CDs, that's all. You bought them, you didn't protect them, you lose them...
How do I activate the GPS unit in my iPod?
emusic and all other competitors have crap. They have the low-profile, never heard of 'em bands who elsewhere give away their music for free.
I can get free mp3s at mp3.com - but they don't have any mp3s i want.
emusic doesn't have the high profile 'name' bands that people want, because they haven't been able to successfully license the right to sell their music. One reason is that they don't have much clout with the recording companies. Another reason is that they do sell unrestricted mp3s and we all know how terrified of mp3s the recording companies are. iTunes wouldn't have anyone I cared about if they had approached the recording companies asking to sell unrestricted mp3s.
It's spelled 'first'
Heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem!
I doesn't tell you squat, because if you clicked on the link then you would see that the Music Direct site is *not* a direct competitor to iTunes.
It looks to be a music review site with links to Amazon if you want to download music or buy CDs.
I know I will get flamed by all the Apple enthusiasts for this, but Apple is only *moderately* better than Microsoft. Otherwise, I would expect them to stand up more against this kind of thing.
They have none of the big bands. As you yourself say, they mainly have independents. Many of the labels and artists they have also sell mp3s directly. I'm sure some of the music is good. But if I want to wade through no-names for mp3s to listen to, I'll go the mp3.com where they're free.
iTunes is different. They have premium content. If I want to buy a song I heard on the radio that I liked, I WILL NOT find it on emusic. I may or may not find it on iTunes, but up to now the only alternative was buying a whole cd, or getting an illegal copy. One of the main justifications people gave for downloading music from Napster/Kazaa/etc was that they wanted only one song, didn't want to buy a whole cd, and the recording industry had stopped selling singles. Well, this is the start of the recording industry selling singles again, and MUCH cheaper than every before. Having seen big sales with no distribution/manufacturing costs on iTunes, many record companies may start to rethink MP3s but it will be a long time before they will consider unrestricted MP3s seriously.
I actually bought a couple songs from the Apple site before I decided I didn't want to support a service that provides:
When I made that decision, a number of people thought I was basically impossible to please -- after all, the AAC files were "all but" free of DRM.
Now we see that DRM ultimately means the distributor owns you. If they can delete the files for "good" reasons, they can delete the file for any reason. You are totally dependent on their good faith. And as we can see, their idea of fair use may not mesh with yours.
I thought of downloading the song from P2P but then buying it from the iTunes store, but that amounts to giving our mortal enemies, the music industry, a lot of money to attack us with. (Note that I have no such concerns about certain indie labels that are not attacking P2P users. It is unfortunate that they tend to get grouped in with the far more evil big-5.)
Nevertheless, let me emphasize that this does not negate the need to pay the artist. In fact, we absolutely must get "paying the artist" off the table to win the intellectual debate. P2P is not about paying the artist, it is about who is in control of distribution -- the comsumer or the record company. We as P2P users, IMO, must make it a cultural reality that we always pay for MP3s we keep. It's easy to do this: go to MusicLink. You can pay any artist (or almost any artist) with a Paypal account or a credit card.
Once paying the artist is the P2P way of life, it will be very hard indeed to trot out words like "stealing" and "theft". Then it will become clear that the complainers are not really complaining about money, but about loss of control of distribution. When the debate is reduced to that, the other side will have already lost.
In the end, I say: insist on DRM-free files. Insist on high quality, at least as high as you want. And ALWAYS pay for the MP3s you keep. Use your money to support those who create great music, not those who attack you politically and legally.
I just spent two weeks in Britain. Nothing happened to my iTunes purchased files, they were not deleted, they were not changed in any way, and I had no problem playing anything. This story is completely false.
The story is based on an email (not an article) by Shawn Yeager, a guy who has worked for Microsoft and has developed a competitive product named MusicDirect. So either this guy was very confused or he was deliberately trying to hurt his competitor.
If it was the latter, he succeeded beyond his wildest dreams, thanks to Slashdot running this on the main page. It seems that the best thing to do is:
1. Write inflamatory email
2. Alert SlashDot to the existance of said email
3. Wait until SlashDot posts it on front page
4. Profit!!!
This was not responsible reporting by SlashDot. Mud sticks, regardless of whether it should have been thrown, and by its irresponsible reporting SlashDot was being used to throw FUD around. This is the sort of thing I expect from SCO, not from SlashDot.
Get a "disposable" MasterCard from webcertificate.com. You can use any other current credit card to purchase the card. (There is, of course, a service fee associated with it.) But the card can be associated with any address you wish, including a US address (just make sure the city/state/zip association is a valid one; other information can be bogus).
This was originally billed as a way for any international user with a credit card to purchase music from the iTunes Music Store. However, it appears that this method could be used to just get yourself a credit card number that's associated with a US billing address for the purposes of associating it with your AppleID. See webcertificate.com's faq for more info.
In sum:
iTunes Music Store does not "check" to see where you are via IP address, or any other network method.
Music you own is never "deleted".
The only reason this user encountered the issue is because he had to reinstall his entire OS, and reauthorize the computer with a credit card whose billing address had since been changed to a non-US address - this didn't specifically disallow him from playing his purchased music; rather, it didn't allow him to REauthorize the computer in order to play the purchased music. As others have said, this seems to be more of a unique situation/accident than intentional on Apple's part (notwithstanding the valid legal considerations Apple has).
Music you burn to CD from iTunes Music Store is yours to keep - FOREVER. No matter where you move. You DO own the music you buy from iTunes Music Store. (Unlike other sites).
As soon as international licensing arrangements are worked out, more and more countries will have iTunes Music Store available.
Apple did much better than anyone else with keeping broad rights with the user/customer, where they belong.
And, finally, a letter from the Canadian equivalent of the RIAA:
Honestly man, when things become so much of a hassle that even average consumers won't do it (like this one-player-only policy) then it'll change. Not even the **AA's can totally ignore public opinion. You're right though, they will try to make some pretty shoddy choices, we just need to be on the watch for them.
I just don't think this is really an example of one. It's probably more of an oversight than a deliberate attempt.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Honestly I am so tired of hearing people complain about the music industry. There are more important issues out there and I don't understand why this is such a major problem. Besides how many people actually leave the US anyways.
not only USED TO WORK FOR MICROSOFT
OMG!!! Because ALL 50,500 current employees and let's-say-15,000 past employees and all future employees at MSFT are EVIL!!!!
Granted, when Mr. Yeager says "I was part of an elite team of business development and technology professionals tasked with answering Netscape's threat to Microsoft's dominance in desktop and server technology" on his web page, it does sound fishy. But the way you put it.....
The recording companies routinely push bands to crank out filler songs to pad the few good songs they spent time crafting. It's a fact of life. The album sells on the basis of one or two hits which is the whole basis of the current radio marketing game.
Ever heard of one hit wonders? Lots of bands write one great, catchy, still humming it ten years later song - and NOTHING else worth paying attention to. I didn't say I really like the band - just the one song I've heard. iTunes will let you preview the other songs on the album to see if you're interested, but you're not FORCED to buy the music just because the one song you like is bundled with 10 others.
Change music to software. Would you like being forced to buy (and pay for) 10 games when you're only interested in one? On the rationale that "Gee, if you really like that development company then OBVIOUSLY you want every game they make, not JUST pac-man 2000". That makes no sense to me. Some bands make concept albums, and might not want 1 song being sold outside of the context of the other 10. But some bands write 10 pop-rock songs and are interested in selling them individually - and I'm interested in buying them individually. This doesn't mean I'm 'programmed' by ClearChannel, just that I'm skeptical of songs I haven't heard because I have in the past spent money on albums based on one really great song that was often very dissimilar in style as well as quality from the rest of the album.
...check out this link for draconian DRM.
Buy a new computer...and kiss all your music files goodbye!
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Great fucking song.
What the hell else did they ever do, and do I give a crap?
Mediocre artists also occasionally make one great piece.
My dad lives in the United States and I live in Sweden.
While he was sleeping once I downloaded his entire iTunes Music Library to see what music he had on his iMac. It turned out to be that about three songs from the Music Store. Fortunately I knew his password and account name so I typed them in -- lo and behold, the authorization worked!
Don't know why this guy is complaining. He said he's changed his creditcard location then it's quite obvious why the songs didn't work.
Somebody tell him that people breath air and that Canada and the US is a different country?
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
As much as I enjoy Canadian jokes on American TV, I must point out that no Canadian I've ever met actually talks like that. It's like thinking that all Texans talk like Boomhauer from King of the Hill...
As I understand it, Immigration has been tightening things lately. But not because of September 11th! Rather, they're trying to deal with their backlog (caused by poor funding), by retroactively raising the bar (and thereby refusing people without having to process their application).
I used dialect because I actually was referring to more than just accent -- I believe vocabulary and grammar are starting to differ amongst English speaking countries, as well. However such a discussion is off-topic and you're right to chastise me for implicitly widening the scope and possibily confusing other readers.
As for variation in Canada, I've never experienced it in person, and even on TV it's only Newfies (who joined the Dominion relatively recently) who sound consistently different enough to place them. I think it might be a bit of an urban legend amongst Americans?
See, that's what's called an *opinion*. Just because you're a mac fanboy and you disagree doesn't make his view "distorted." I hope to hell you don't become eligible to moderate because that attitude is exactly the problem with slashdot's moderation system.
i mean these people aren't zealots
What, the mac fans who use their mod points only on apple stories? The ones who flame anyone who doesn't bow to the cult of Jobs? No, certainly not them.
your just an MS fan boy (sorry for saying the "F" word)
Right, there are tons of MS fan boys, and we all belong to the club. Here's a clue - MS doesn't have "fans" because windows users don't treat their OS like a religion. And I don't even use windows, so don't start the windows fanboy crap again.
yeah apples WAY worse, you can tell by there EULA, and there 13 digit registration codes,
Right, God knows that's the true estimation of an OS's quality.
I mean, how long does microsoft have to fuck you in the ass before you give up windows?
You're under the mistaken impression that anyone who thinks Apple is less than perfect uses Windows. Not the case. Most people here use linux, I imagine. That's right - we criticize apple...AND microsoft. Yes, you *can* do both! Even if you use one or the other!
you seem to like the abuse you sick fucks.
Got your panties in a bunch because someone insulted your favorite OS? That is the very definition of zealot. I rest my case.
And to all you mac zealots out there, feel free to mod me down, I don't care. It's karma-burning Friday and we've got an inferno going here.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I think you might be on to something there, I remember when the Spice Girls became big (and I believe the same was said of earlier "invasion" bands) some critics accused them of singing in an American accent in order to appeal to the larger market. Of course this sort of thing should be objectively measurable...
All the music I've bought from the iTMS are on my iPod. I don't think they would be effected if I travelled.
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
This just in...
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:52:22 -0400
> From: Shawn Yeager
> Subject: Re: pho: Fwd: Apple's Music Store policy -- the fine print for
> expatriates
> To: pho@onehouse.com
> Cc: declan@well.com, dave@farber.net
>
>
> Thanks to William in the Apple Music Store group (who I believe is on the Pho list), it appears that I received bad information from their customer support organization, and he's working on restoring my ability to play the purchased songs.
>
> Thanks, William.
>
> Shawn
>
> --
>
> shawnyeager.com
> +1 416 305 4142
Nick Lange nick.lange@SPAMTASTIC.hushmail.com
very simple. Microsoft is Apple's competitor on the home PC market, just like Apple, MS offers content encoding, streaming and replay solutions (Windows Media Player vs Quicktime and iTunes). MS has also made a major step into the content market (MSN/MSNBC). The iTunes Music Store provides added value to Apple customers.
It is quite clear that this is not in Microsofts interest, and to me it is quite clear that people like Yeager may be little un-biased in their PR activities.
Doesn't mean all MS employees are evil. E.g., Microsoft Research has managed to get some very bright people to work for them...
Simply put, the days of restriction-free media are going away. Just as the landscape that media distributors face is changing, so is the landscape that we consumers must accept. It may be that now that it's possible AND feasible to make sure only purchasers of copyrighted material can view it, that may be the way it becomes.
You're right that we vote with our dollars, and that the least restrictive solutions will tend to win. Which is why I am using iTMS :)
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
I don't know about the accents. Their accents tend to be loud and obnoxious and incomprehensible. And their beady little eyes and their flapping jaws.
I don't trust those guys--I think we should blame Canada for all this.
Forget CDs and Kazaa. I just bought an unemployed Broadway musician to play for me whereever I go.
Only $100 bucks and the best investment I ever made.
I crochet because I'm lonely; I'm lonely because I crochet.
Who said that? Other than you, I mean?
The post I read pointed out that the person dissing Apple's DRM happened to have two different past business interests that call his objectivity into question. Is this a real complaint, or a spin job? That's a fair-minded question.
As a reader, I want to know when the guy arguing that roadside assistance trucks are communism at its worst happens to run a tow truck company. (Think it's a funny example? We had a MN state legislator who made that argument on the Huose floor, and who owned big stock in such a company.) Doesn't mean I think tow companies are evil; just means we want to know if someone's got a hidden motive, 'cause it helps us weigh the evidence.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
The problem is that at this stage Apple only has a licence to distribute within the US. Licences outside the US have to be negotiated with the copyright representative body of whichever region they are selling to (I'm Australian, so no iTMS for me). The RIAA doesn't own the world yet.
By reinstating the user's licence in a country for which Apple has no distribution agreement, they would be in violation of the terms of their distribution agreement within the US. So talking to a human might generate sympathetic noises, but wouldn't get results.
The reason for this is that music studios have signed contracts going back to the 80s, 70s, 60s, and before, which only cover the right to sell music in the US. Many artists sign with different labels overseas (this seemed the best way to go before the internet appeared, since each local label knew the most about marketing for its own territory). Anyway, many US labels don't even have the right to sell their music stock outside the country. Apple is just passing along this restriction.
It would take a MAJOR re-negotiation of almost every artists' contract to change this. That may eventually happen but it won't be soon.
The same thing happens with movies, btw. Expect on-line pay movie services to restrict viewing to the US.
You have all those benefits with CD's today. You're part of the 20-something "ooh...new...shiny" generation.
And no, I buy stuff, I'm not part of a business model.
there is no question that you're part of a business model. you are. so get over it.
Everyone knows that damage is done to the soul by bad motion pictures. -Pope Pius XI
Err, if you're trying to argue that CD's are just as conveniant as using iTunes and iTMS, then you're just plainly misinformed or you find extra steps, travelling to a record store or ordering online and waiting several days (and paying more) for your music to be "conveniant."
So what if it's new and shiny. It is new. It is kinda shiny, now that you mention it. Does that make it any less conveniant? No. Does that somehow make it more expensive? Nope. It's still cheaper for me to get 2 songs off a CD that I actually like than pay for the whole thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product being conveniant and practical and at the same time looking good.
And yes, you are part of a business model. You buy stuff. By definition, you are. You're part of many of them. You go to the grocery store right? Do you realize how carefully researched many sales, products, packaging styles are? If not, you need to take a look around and wise up a little.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
We just need a way to rip the DRM stuff out of the files is all ...
you're such a whiny bitch.
talk to the dog owner. if he doesn't straighten out, punch him in the face. the government is for protecting you from foreign aggression, and for building roads. not for handling your dog poo problem. people need to get in more fistfights and less lawsuits. shitty laws like this make me have less respect for any laws. unmarried sex is illegal in D.C. WTF? like you can outlaw sex and have it make a difference. or outlaw any other annoying thing your neighbor does. Oh no, look at the color he painted his house, lets force him to paint it one of our approved colors. whiny fucking nazis.
Thanks for the info, but if you EVER sing anything from the Phantom of the Opera again....
(sorry, you probably get that a lot)
Well, since we're at it, the first sense of the phrase is explained here:
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-beg1.htm
It seems to have come from a bad translation from latin. If you ask me, the sense in which he used it seems much more logical.
Actually it is the ENGLISH who say "honi soit qui mal y pense". It is the motto of the Order of the Knights of the Garter, the oldest and highest order of chivalry in the United Kingdom, founded in 1348 by King Edward III. Check out Most Noble Order of the Garter
I went to Scotland last month and used my computer while I was there - even going on the internet, and I had no problems playing any of my previously purchased music. So as far as the songs not working or being deleted, etc - that is untrue. I was able to access the service when I was down there, but I didn't try to buy a song...
I don't know if it is true, but someone told me that the Seattle market is where regional newcasters go to lose their accents before going to network news. Aaron Brown (CNN) is an example.
"Form should follow function...unless it's just plain ugly."
if you go to the itms store once you are in another country maybe apple servers at iTMS detects this and your pute is deauthorized and you can no longer play the tunes or buy any. Apparently, if you change your contact address and/or have your US credit card address changed, you are no longer able to play the songs you paid for while on US soil.
your only backup is the ipod but if you sync it the songs are no longer playable since the host itunes shows you are deauthorized.
I say set your itunes/iPod to manual sync and maybe that will protect them enough to at least be lplayed on an ipod. burning a cd won't help because AAC from iTMS can only be authorized to play on authorized macs no matter the source. and these apple encoded AAC file cds cannot be played in a normal player.
perhaps there is a more sly way of keeping yourself authorized. keep a uS mailing address for your purchases may help.
Career highlights include:
Musicdirect.com
I was responsible for the development of one of the earliest online music retail operations.
Microsoft Corporation
I was part of an elite team of business development and technology professionals tasked with answering Netscape's threat to Microsoft's dominance in desktop and server technology.
---
Seems to be a strange coincidence that someone who worked for MS AND for a direct competitor of the iTMS, has problems with the musicstore. I don't buy it.
And it's quite interesting, that someone working in the computer business, doesn't back up his data.
The spice girls are hardly unique in that respect. Most British pop bands do a vague mid-atlantic accent. Why? Maybe because of a vague feeling over here is that, after 50 years, rock music is "something that Americans do". You get used to it, frankly, and don't really notice until Sohpie Ellis Bextor sings "murder on the dahnce flaw"
well....although this is appalling, thankfully, only those who use macs as macs (those who use macs as linux boxes aren't affected as long as they don't use MacOS).
Either way, biting the hand that feeds you isn't a good business practice.
What an alarmist posting! I bought 90% of my iTMS library while in Norway this spring (using my US credit card), but the posting as currently moderated inspires generalized feelings of dread about iTMS and foreign countries. The guy who lost his music makes it sound as if he personally played no role at all in this beyond innocently moving to a friendly nearby nation, when in fact he (a) didn't have a backup of his music library and (b) then reinstalled his whole operating system. Maintain a US credit card, or else back up your music. If you don't plan on doing either one, like the poster, you are admittedly cruising for a bruising--but it seems whiny almost beyond endurance to carry on afterwards as if this is a big surprise or injustice.
And this, boys and girls, is why DRM is a BAD THING. Someone else has finaly control. Welcome to digital slavery.
Cut the crap. Why don't you discuss the real issue at hand ? A customer who has lost the right to play music he/she has legally purchased is least bothered with whether Cananda is the 61st US state. Slashdot used to be a better place.
You make some good points in your second paragaph, but your assertion that Emusic is crap and not any better that mp3.com is definitely absurd. People should browse their catalog and make that choice for themselves. Maybe you haven't heard of the following bands/artists, but I'm sure others have:
Bad Religion
Badly Drawn Boy
CCR
Grandaddy
Interpol
John Coltrane
Miles Davis
NOFX
Pavement
Stereolab
The Delgados
The Fall
The Pixies
Thelonius Monk
They Might Be Giants
Yo La Tengo
and more...
Good suggestions but:
n s.htm
1- Analogue filtering won't remove compression artefacts without sacrificing HF response, adding high pass filters can cause serious group delay if not implemented correctly (flabby bass drums for example), and be careful to choose the correct filter circuit topology: some exhibit high distortion regardless of the op-amp used.
2- Instrumentation-grade op amps are not always optimized for audio band applications (consult Analog Devices' data sheets on this one); a descrete op amp (anything but Lin topology) would be a better choice. I would suggest something along the lines of the Jensen Twin Servo
3- Even average op-amps will give you plenty of headroom as long as your supply voltages are high enough (+/- 15 V gives a P-P output swing of 12.7V for an LM833 with a noise floor of 110dB unweighted, which isn't bad for a $2 chip) asssuming you use a unity gain bandpass filter.
4- If you're going to the trouble of making a tube pre-amp, you might as well just save time, effort and money and buy the CD. Tubes do add that nice slew rate limiting, though (oh, you're from the UK; I suppose I should use the correct term "valve")
5- Buffering via tape, while adding the bandpass filter (and audibly impinging on the HF response) also adds such problems as wow and flutter, phase error and channel crosstalk (even in the best decks), and noise. Noise reduction might mitigate this to a degree, but can lead to undesirable attenuation of the HF during quiet passages (Dolby B & C). Unless the problem of connecting one soundcard directly to another is the result of an impedence mismatch (which could be cured more easily by high impedence voltage followers after the output card, triode if you like but op-amps will do) its unlikely that this method will do anything but introduce noise and distortion which will mask the original artifacts rather than remove them. If that's what you call sounding better, then go for it.
Good point about the linear power supplies over switchmode (one that a lot of people don't realize), but I think your suggestion of using batteries is a bit extreme; with regulation and proper decoupling a linear supply should have a more than acceptable ripple voltage.
An astute observation about Line In connections. I first noticed this when Apple brought out the "Digital Audio" G4 model (um, its for audio, but there's no audio in...? Okay...). I suppose it makes some sense, given that most people only want to copy from CDs, and the internal PSU of most PCs are quite noisy (as well as being fairly low; not good for headroom), making digital transfer preferrable.
I would recommend this site:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampi
Its quite interesting, and written by someone who really knows their stuff. The article "Pseudo-science in Audio" is a real eye-opener (no accusations here; just saying that it made me realize how flawed human perception can be).
That should have been "-110dB". Sorry; I'll proof read next time.
I give up. You win.
I spent a lot of time travelling between Australia, the US, and Japan. Three seperate regions. I guess you don't like people like me.
I'd admit, I tried to fight you. I used to buy CD's, but I can't play new ones on my computer anymore, so I stopped. I used to buy DVD's, but I can't keep track of regions and licensing, so I stopped. The same goes for games.
I wanted to buy from iTMS. It seemed convenient. But I'm not in the US at the moment, so I can't. Even if I did, it seems not so clear now what I can do with the songs I 'own'.
So what do I do? I don't like file sharing. Call me nostalgic, but I like to have the actual physical media. I like to support musicians, artists, and programmers.
But you media guys have tried bloody hard to discourange me.
I've been standing around for years, holding my money, and waiting for you to let me buy shit I can actually play/watch/listen to.
But you're just too damn good at what you do.
So I give up. You win. I'm off to download kazaa.
British troops burned down the white house.
Nobody knows what the fuck they're saying...
Dear Apple:
I bought an Apple computer because of its native support for teledildonics. I bought a USB FUFME and MacOS immediately recognized it and installed drivers instantly! As a gay Catholic priest who often can't be at the altar all the time, you can understand how the ability to have sex with children whilst on the airplane with my Powerbook and wireless internet service is a lifesaver.
I just have a single question, will Apple be releasing a firewire version of the FUFME anytime soon?
With much gayness,
Father Michael "Arminass" Sims
He purchased the songs in the US. What was not anticipated by the Apple cadre of trained seals was that someone might want to re-authorize from outside the US. So they should store the relevant info to allow one to re-authorize, say a "region code" (he says ducking) in the encoded music that says where it was purchased. Alternately he could have burnt them to CD (maybe even a virtual CD image? don't know if that is currently possible. Maybe the elves will makes something other than shoes tonight). Then if they are in CD form, he could reimport them untagged into iTunes ... Anyone know if iTunes will allow transfer such that a CD-RW or /DMG (disk image) can be the output instead of a CD-R?
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
The Liberal Party, or Grits as they are sometimes called, have been in power since 1993 and no other parties show any sign of maturing to the point of being competition.
...media taxes you!
Unfortunately, some countries don't have the "fair use" provisions available in the US. In Australia, it's not legal to make a private copy, say from CD to tape to play in the car. This means almost all use of MP3 players, and even cassette dubbing, is illegal.
This means iTunes' model doesn't translate here. Consider the way the internet is, allowing people to "virtually" do something in another country - if iTunes didn't have the restriction, you'd have people all over the world breaking their own local law by paying iTunes "in" USA and promptly moving their purchase back home.
btw, this same problem applies to Cringely's idea.
-- All your bass are below two Hz
Dude, you want to go into your user settings and put that shit in your sig instead of adding it to the bottom of your post.
Oh, and BTW, it makes no sense whatsoever.
This is reason to either (a) not use iTunes Music Store, or (b) burn-rip all songs you get, so you have control over them. It amazes me how the Apple fanboys (of thich I am one otherwise) bash the RIAA and Pressplay, yet allow Steve to control their use of things they have bought, and cheer him for it.
sulli
RTFJ.
No such restrictions on Kazaa Lite :)
Ok. First off, we already know that songs purchased from iTMS will work in other countries, because numerous people have used their US credit card and purchased tunes, even though they were located in places such as Japan, and England.
That said, first we have a guy who fries his hard drive, moves before rebuilding said drive. Changes his credit card billing address, and changes his address as listed in the iTunes Music Store, then rebuilds his computer and tries to re-authorize music from out of the country, and no where during this process did he think something might go wrong?
Pardon me, but if I rebuilt my computer, or even purchased a new computer, and transferred over songs that had anytype of DRM, while staying in the US, I'd expect to experience a number of glitches. I'd be pleased if none happen, but I'd expect something to go wrong.
It was just a semantic bug in the system, that's all. Apple didn't anticipate this situation, which is unusual and not a daily occurrence. Apple's customer service is not the legal department, so whatever they told this guys was just a script intended for a different circumstance. The legalese is clear in the license. The restriction us to purchasing from the Music store. Once purchased, the user is allowed to use the music according to the usage which does not restrict him from using outside the US, just on authorized Mac's, on authorized iPods and burned CD's for his own use, no matter where he is.
Now that the right person at Apple is involved, the problem is being corrected. Much ado about nothing! Apple's DRM rules!
I repeat here what I wrote in macslash.
iTMS just checks whether your cc has a US billing address.
If you connect from overseas the first time you try to register it even warns you that you might not enjoy the service if you do not have a US billed CC.
I registered to iTMS while traveling in Switzerland, bought music just fine, bought in France, Italy and US as well.
put them in iPod or burn a CD is not a problem either. While connected abroad I often use local free ISP so my Powerbook definitely could not look like a US computer but my CC card and my account definitely are.
iTMS: Music is forever!
"BuyMusic.com has now eliminated the option to purchase songs if you're not using Internet Explorer for Windows. Not a huge loss, but notable, nonetheless."
From here:
http://www.macslash.com/
That is, in fact, the basis for my saying emusic is crap.
I mainly listen to techno/trance, and in that genre mp3.com is far superior to emusic's weak offerings.
When I do listen to rock, it's sure as hell not They Might Be Giants or the Pixies. I do love Miles Davis, but wouldn't seriously consider buying mp3s of his songs - he's one of the rare artists where I want to listen to the entire album when I listen to his music, and being able to buy singles is IMHO the main advantage of mp3 distribution. And one of the rare artists where the cd liner notes are usually extensive and informative. Miles Davis is really one of the poster children FOR cd distribution.
Read my posts - I'm very consistent. I like the bands I like, period. I have no 'duty' to support indie bands. If I've never heard of a band, I couldn't care less about them. Some of the bands I like are big bands, some are small bands. Most of the music I buy is techno, and techno artists get big based on crowd reaction to their songs, NOT from RIAA promotion since there are still zero techno stations on the radio. I also listen to such radio friendly genres as death metal, gabber, punk, goth, industrial, etc. These genres have never depended on the RIAA for promotion of artists. Don't ever assume I'm a drone or that my tastes are dictated to me, they're not. RIAA promotion of songs usually just ruins a decent pop song for me as I hear it overplayed until I can't stand it anymore.
Flaw with response #1: Lots of movies DO NOT make money in a theatrical release. Most of them fail miserably in their 2 week stint in the theaters. Take a look at Disney and their mega-flop Treasure Planet...that loss caused Disney to restate profits by $74 million dollars that quarter. I spite of that flop, it made money in the rental market. Most movie venture capitalists know this and count on the DVD rental/sale market to make them money. This model is analogous to the music industry's "summer tour season". The CDs make money and so do concert ticket prices.
I'm not sure why you think DVDs cost less to reproduce...physically they are multilayer discs with more expensive materials, technically, there are more software menus that need to be created, and the outer cases usually cost more than a standard CD. Movies also require quite a bit more in terms of production...more people = more cost. Your average band setup doesn't have a third of the staff an average movie company has....yet their product ends up on the shelf for only $5-$10 more than a CD.
Flaw with response #2: I may not like the RIAA or the artists associated with them, but occasionally one of them produces a song or two I like. It would be nice to have the option of purchasing just those songs. That would encourage better music and the RIAA to find more quality artists.
Flaw with response #3: Have you ever tried to rip a copy protected CD? I suspect you haven't. There are CDs out there that have an intentionally corrupt data track. This corrupt data track prevents a computer drive from reading the disc. Most audio CD players will ignore data tracks and go right to the music. If you can't read the disc in a computer, how are you going to "rip" the disc? Your "ownership" of the disc, under current RIAA licensing laws, does not entitle you to any rights other than playing it in some compatible CD players. My argument is that you should be able to play that disc in ANY device you see fit.
Flaw with response #4: We really won't know the answer to this until there is a service that allows MP3 or Ogg Vorbis downloads, a la carte, with no DRM restrictions. You might be suprised....some people might actually want to legally buy the music when they aren't feeling ripped off.
-ted
They're angst ridden.
My point was, this guy has never talked to his neighbor about the dog doo. Just whines about how people don't follow the law online. You have to deal with people directly to get results. The punching should be a last resort.
initializing the hard drive is not enough to de-authorize a computer - you would have to de-authorize in itunes manaually or replace the logic board - there is something else that happened that this shawn yeager is not telling - it's also a bit curios that his 'professional biography' shows him as an early developer for musicdirect.com and his association with microsoft as being "...tasked with answering Netscape's threat..." - very fishy - maybe he's answering another "threat"
0 14
check apple kbase article 93014 or follow the link below and look at note number 1 at the end of the document
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93
initializing the hard drive is not enough to de-authorize a computer - you would have to de-authorize in itunes manaually or replace the logic board
0 14
check apple kbase article 93014 or follow the link below and look at note number 1 at the end of the document
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93