If you wanted to play Resident Evil 4, you should have bought a Cube (or actually, a Wii which also plays Cube games). Its version is vastly superior to the PS2 version.
You say this and then don't refute me. I can only assume I was.
Okay, you were obviously incapable of parsing what I wrote, so let me try this again: You are wrong. You wrote:
No matter how many games you can cite that fall in line with the statement "Innovative, Original Games Have No Chance", you only need one counter-example to disprove it/i>
Obviously, you seem to think that the original claim was that original games have no chance (which was the title of the article, but is obviously hyperbole, see below). This is wrong, as shown in this quote from the/. blurb:
"You use the word 'difficult', but I think that it is becoming almost 'impossible' for an original game to succeed financially. This can't be blamed on anyone but it's a simple fact that an original game doesn't appeal to the majority of gamers."
Now please tell me how one successfull game refutes this.
Second, again, your whole argument is utterly pointless. The article is about how innovative games aren't a good idea for developers. Ever heard of that thing called "hyperbole"? Ever interacted with another human? What are you, a compiler or something? Here's a hint: If a human being tells you that "all art is crap," he doesn't mean that literally all art is crap. He means that in his opinion, most of the art he's familiar is crap. If you then tell him that he's wrong because Mona Lisa is great, you're utterly missing the point. Try to get out and interact with some poeple for a change. Your attempt at refuting this thing is totally missing the whole point.
About your games: The first two games are on Nintendo's consoles. Yes, there are innovative games on Nintendo's consoles, but if you go back to my first post to which you replied, I wrote:
Awesome. So the PS2 had one innovative game that did well. Hardly what I'd call a "rebuttal."
I never claimed that there weren't innovative games on Nintendo's consoles. I said that one innovative PS2 game does not refute the article's point.
Also, Dead Rising is GTA with zombies, and it's not even on the PS2. God of War may be an awesome game, but it's not innovative or original. Shadow of the Collossus, ok. SO now you have two PS2 innovative, original games.
Personally, I think Okami should have been a Wii game. It would have done very, very well. I do not think that innovative games have no chance. I do think, however, that most innovative games fail if released on the PS2. The PS2 target audience simply isn't that interested in innovation.
Possibly. I'm 27. All of the PS2 owners I know are between 17 and 28.
However, the Gamecube/Xbox owners I know are in a similar age bracket and own very different games, as well as a very different amount of games from PS2 owners.
Interesting. can you give me some examples of what you're seeing?
Xbox owners tend to have lots of FPS games and GTA clones. A few of them have some RPGs and stuff like that Zelda-style game from Molyneux, Fable. Few quirky stuff - one of the few weirder games that comes to mind is that voodoo jump-n-run. Something else: They all got dozens of demos from Xbox Live, but none of them has actually bought a game there yet. Most of the Xbox owners I know have around a dozen games. The Xbox owners tend to be the younger ones, I'd say generally between 17 and 23, most of them going to school, studying or "between."
Gamecube owners have the most games, and the most diverse set of genres. Very few FPS games, lots and lots of japanese-style RPGs, adventures and multiplayer/party games. Almost every Gamecube owner I know owns at least one of the following games: Super Monkey Ball 1, Super Monkey Ball 2, or one of the Mario Party games. Several own more than one of these. Most own at least one game from the Mario Sports series - Soccer or Tennis. Few realistic games - few Cube owners I know play "real" sports games (NBA Street is the most realistic game they play, and some soccer fans own one or several Fifa games) or "bloody" games (Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime being among the most "mature" games). I guess lots of Gamecube owners aren't big single-player gamers, but tend to game with friends. They also generally tend to be somewhat older and working, which might explain why they own more games. Also, almost all females own own consoles own a Cube.
With PS2 owners, I can't really se a pattern. I guess too many people own PS2s. I know a few PS2 gamers who own lots of PS2 games, but these people tend to also own an Xbox and/or a Cube. Most PS2 gamers seem to be casual gamers who don't care too much and simply ended up with a PS2 because everyone has one. Something else: while some Cube owners own movie conversions (mostly kiddie stuff like Finding Nemo, mostly bought by females), it's mostly PS2 owners who buy games based on movies.
Then why are game developers saying that there's no market for games like Okami on the PS2?
Because they're whiners. Okami has enough critical acclaim and mindshare now to guarantee a sequel.
Except that Capcom disbanded the studio who made the game. It was a commercial failure, and it's unlikely that Capcom will do it again.
Pikmin is a RTS, Animal Crossing is a god game like the Sims.
Yeah, Pikmin is a RTS, but then, that's like saying that Mario 64 was nothing new because it was a Jump-N-Run. And no, Animal Crossing isn't a god game. I'm guessing you haven't played it: It's more along the lines of Zelda without a story:-)
Most games these days owe something to what has come before, even the supposedly innovative ones.
Yeah, but I think this is somewhat confused thinking. Just because something isn't entirely new doesn't mean it can't be innovative.
Gamers and gaming pundits may "say" they want innovation, but what they really want is what they liked before, only tweaked and improved. Evolution rather than innovation.
True, here I agree. It's always easy to go on about how you want innovative new games, but then, you need to put your money where your mouth is. If people bought these games, they would make more. But here's the thing: Some people buy these games, and it just seems that these people, the people who buy the "quirky" games, are more likely to own the "quirky" console. Which happens to have been the Nintendo console in recent years.
I think the kind of PS2 owners one knows depends on how old you are.
Possibly. I'm 27. All of the PS2 owners I know are between 17 and 28.
However, the Gamecube/Xbox owners I know are in a similar age bracket and own very different games, as well as a very different amount of games from PS2 owners.
PS2 owners definitely seem to be the most mainstream, non-"innovative" gamers.
But still PS2 owners are numerous enough and diverse enough to support a lot of niche games.
Then why are game developers saying that there's no market for games like Okami on the PS2?
As for the PS2 having only a dozen good games
Not what I said. I was talking about innovative games, since this is the subject of/. article. Yes, there are easily 100 good games on the PS2. There are, however, definitely not 100 innovative, original games on the PS2.
All the good platformers are PS2 games.
Huh???
I don't consider "Nintendoizing standard genres by slapping colorful characters on them" innovative.
Straw man.
Pikmin and Animal Crossing are good games, but they're not innovative.
Okay, so what "standard genres" did Nintendo take and slap colorful characters on to create Pikmin and Animal Crossing? Show me the pre-Nintendo Animal Crossing, and the pre-Nintendo Pikmin which Nintendo adapted.
First of all, even if you were right, your argument would be utterly pointless since "one game in thousands" is pretty much equal to "no game at all". Second, here's the actual summary quote, for reference:
"You use the word 'difficult', but I think that it is becoming almost 'impossible' for an original game to succeed financially. This can't be blamed on anyone but it's a simple fact that an original game doesn't appeal to the majority of gamers."
So what he said was "Most Games Have No Chance," as you said he should have.
Awesome. So the PS2 had one innovative game that did well. Hardly what I'd call a "rebuttal."
Can we please stop with these "Katamari Damacy" replies every time we discuss innovation in video games? Katamari Damacy is one game (and no, the sequels don't count in the "there is inovation argument). You're simply making the article's point.
Looking at the games library, the PS2 has some amazing games - Ico, Katamari, Shadow of the Colossus - but not more than about a dozen. And most of these didn't do too well. Frankly, even though the Cube has a lot less games, I think it has more innovative games.
Except the people who buy Zelda games might own a Gamecube and not a PS2. Okami would have sold better if it had appeared on a Nintendo console, even without renaming the characters.
Maybe on Sony's platforms, they have no chance. As far as I know, the PSP's Loco Roco didn't sell too well, just like Clover's games. Ico also didn't do too well, as far as I remember, despite being an amazing game. Katamari Damacy probably sold well, but it's still one of the very few really innovative games for the PS2 (and it's still always the first - and often only - game people bring up when listing innovative games on the PS2).
I think most people buying PS2s simply aren't that interested in quirky stuff. If they were, they wouldn't have bought the blandest, most common console available. Many PS2 gamers simply want their yearly Madden fix, a few generic RPGs and FPSs, and some of the good old GTA ultraviolence.
But look at Nintendo's consoles. The DS has a huge amount of creative, fresh, quirky games, and the Wii is already getting its fair share of them, too. And they are selling! I'm absolutely certain that Okami could have been a huge hit on the Wii.
Don't create innovative games for consoles whose buyers are mostly interested in so-called "mature" games and then come back crying if nobody buys your stuff.
The funny thing is, I own one of the GBA games, but when I started playing it, I couldn't really get into it. As far as I remember, it had a somewhat confusing cards scheme, not quite sure anymore. I'll go back and try again.
I think it should be the other way around. Printing a company's trade secrets should not be protected. There's no public interest (and by the way, the fact that you are interested in what Apple is doing does not imply public interest). However, if there is a public interest - such as in matters related to national security - the press must be absolutely free to print whatever they dig up, without fear of prosecution.
Apple is doing lots of crappy things (like forcing DRM on every iTunes download even when the rights holders don't require it), but in this case, I don't really get all the brouhaha. An employee of Apple leaked their trade secrets. Apple tried to figure out who it was and sued some rumor sites (btw, they aren't blogs). They lost, but I think they had a fair chance of winning, and it was their right to try it. What exactly is "evil" here?
Yeah, I didn't actually mean that most of use don't use Windows. I meant that most of us aren't working at Microsoft and thus are in no position to make it suck less.
I think most people are perfectly capable of inferring from context what the actual subject of a conversation is. Here's a hint: If a Windows user tells you that his PC sucks, he's probably talking about things he doesn't like in Windows, not about the ugly color of his minitower.
The rest of your rant isn't very clever, either. If you tell others to "stop talking shit," you might as well try and be the shining light we can all follow instead of ranting and raving about imaginary fanboys who presumably stole your toy when you were a toddler, or something similarly nefarious. Furthermore, the early 90s called. They want their "Macs are expensive and made of shiny plastic" rants back. Have you actually seen a Mac recently?
I own a PSP, but I have no idea how I would play that game on it. I have no PS3, and after having to put up with the PSP, I'm sure as hell not going to buy one. Do I need a PS3 to put PS games on the PSP? I would prefer to have it on the DS, because that's where it belongs: The dual screens are perfect for Metroidvania games, and the DS is simply more portable than the PSP.
Also, I can play my DS (fat) while taking a bath. I'm not going to do that with the more expensive PSP.
...and I think the main (and possibly only relevant) reason for its failure is that it sucks really, really hard. It's overly complicated, the buttons feel like phone buttons instead of like gamepad triggers, the screen size is only suitable for a very specific subset of all game genres, and it's too slow for 3D graphics, yet most games are in 3D.
There are about five playable games for the N-Gage (High Seize, Pathway to Glory 1 and 2, and... uh... okay, there are three).
I meant "working on Windows" as in "being in a position where we can fix Windows' suckiness, i.e. working on Windows' code," not "sitting in front of a Windows box all day long."
How the fuck can it be easier on a mac unless this is Linux VS Mac?
I'm afraid I'm too stupid to understand the point of your so eloquently stated question. Are you suggesting that creating a DVD on Windows is as easy as it is on a Mac? Having used both, I find this statement ludicrous, so it must be something else you're trying to tell me.
There already are Windows versions of all iLife apps. There's Movie Maker, there are DVD apps, and so on. The difference is that the ones on the Mac don't suck. And trust me, I've used most of the Windows based apps.
The point is that they were successful - because they introduced a whole new market for games.
What you're doing is reframing what we're discussing. Sure, if you re-define "success," you're correct, but it's pointless in the context of our original discussion - which was about Sony introducing a new PS3 controller to compete with the Wii remote.
Yeah, you can't go up to somebody and insult him, because you could get sued. Now tell me how this is related to an adult person selling another adult person a totally legal piece of merchandise.
Slashdot Mirror
If you wanted to play Resident Evil 4, you should have bought a Cube (or actually, a Wii which also plays Cube games). Its version is vastly superior to the PS2 version.
Okay, you were obviously incapable of parsing what I wrote, so let me try this again: You are wrong. You wrote:
Obviously, you seem to think that the original claim was that original games have no chance (which was the title of the article, but is obviously hyperbole, see below). This is wrong, as shown in this quote from the /. blurb:
Now please tell me how one successfull game refutes this.
Second, again, your whole argument is utterly pointless. The article is about how innovative games aren't a good idea for developers. Ever heard of that thing called "hyperbole"? Ever interacted with another human? What are you, a compiler or something? Here's a hint: If a human being tells you that "all art is crap," he doesn't mean that literally all art is crap. He means that in his opinion, most of the art he's familiar is crap. If you then tell him that he's wrong because Mona Lisa is great, you're utterly missing the point. Try to get out and interact with some poeple for a change. Your attempt at refuting this thing is totally missing the whole point.
About your games: The first two games are on Nintendo's consoles. Yes, there are innovative games on Nintendo's consoles, but if you go back to my first post to which you replied, I wrote:
I never claimed that there weren't innovative games on Nintendo's consoles. I said that one innovative PS2 game does not refute the article's point.
Also, Dead Rising is GTA with zombies, and it's not even on the PS2. God of War may be an awesome game, but it's not innovative or original. Shadow of the Collossus, ok. SO now you have two PS2 innovative, original games.
Personally, I think Okami should have been a Wii game. It would have done very, very well. I do not think that innovative games have no chance. I do think, however, that most innovative games fail if released on the PS2. The PS2 target audience simply isn't that interested in innovation.
Xbox owners tend to have lots of FPS games and GTA clones. A few of them have some RPGs and stuff like that Zelda-style game from Molyneux, Fable. Few quirky stuff - one of the few weirder games that comes to mind is that voodoo jump-n-run. Something else: They all got dozens of demos from Xbox Live, but none of them has actually bought a game there yet. Most of the Xbox owners I know have around a dozen games. The Xbox owners tend to be the younger ones, I'd say generally between 17 and 23, most of them going to school, studying or "between."
Gamecube owners have the most games, and the most diverse set of genres. Very few FPS games, lots and lots of japanese-style RPGs, adventures and multiplayer/party games. Almost every Gamecube owner I know owns at least one of the following games: Super Monkey Ball 1, Super Monkey Ball 2, or one of the Mario Party games. Several own more than one of these. Most own at least one game from the Mario Sports series - Soccer or Tennis. Few realistic games - few Cube owners I know play "real" sports games (NBA Street is the most realistic game they play, and some soccer fans own one or several Fifa games) or "bloody" games (Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime being among the most "mature" games). I guess lots of Gamecube owners aren't big single-player gamers, but tend to game with friends. They also generally tend to be somewhat older and working, which might explain why they own more games. Also, almost all females own own consoles own a Cube.
With PS2 owners, I can't really se a pattern. I guess too many people own PS2s. I know a few PS2 gamers who own lots of PS2 games, but these people tend to also own an Xbox and/or a Cube. Most PS2 gamers seem to be casual gamers who don't care too much and simply ended up with a PS2 because everyone has one. Something else: while some Cube owners own movie conversions (mostly kiddie stuff like Finding Nemo, mostly bought by females), it's mostly PS2 owners who buy games based on movies.
Because they're whiners. Okami has enough critical acclaim and mindshare now to guarantee a sequel.Except that Capcom disbanded the studio who made the game. It was a commercial failure, and it's unlikely that Capcom will do it again.
Yeah, Pikmin is a RTS, but then, that's like saying that Mario 64 was nothing new because it was a Jump-N-Run. And no, Animal Crossing isn't a god game. I'm guessing you haven't played it: It's more along the lines of Zelda without a story :-)
Yeah, but I think this is somewhat confused thinking. Just because something isn't entirely new doesn't mean it can't be innovative.
True, here I agree. It's always easy to go on about how you want innovative new games, but then, you need to put your money where your mouth is. If people bought these games, they would make more. But here's the thing: Some people buy these games, and it just seems that these people, the people who buy the "quirky" games, are more likely to own the "quirky" console. Which happens to have been the Nintendo console in recent years.
Possibly. I'm 27. All of the PS2 owners I know are between 17 and 28.
However, the Gamecube/Xbox owners I know are in a similar age bracket and own very different games, as well as a very different amount of games from PS2 owners.
PS2 owners definitely seem to be the most mainstream, non-"innovative" gamers.
Then why are game developers saying that there's no market for games like Okami on the PS2?
Not what I said. I was talking about innovative games, since this is the subject of /. article. Yes, there are easily 100 good games on the PS2. There are, however, definitely not 100 innovative, original games on the PS2.
Huh???
Straw man.
Okay, so what "standard genres" did Nintendo take and slap colorful characters on to create Pikmin and Animal Crossing? Show me the pre-Nintendo Animal Crossing, and the pre-Nintendo Pikmin which Nintendo adapted.
First of all, even if you were right, your argument would be utterly pointless since "one game in thousands" is pretty much equal to "no game at all". Second, here's the actual summary quote, for reference:
So what he said was "Most Games Have No Chance," as you said he should have.
Awesome. So the PS2 had one innovative game that did well. Hardly what I'd call a "rebuttal."
Can we please stop with these "Katamari Damacy" replies every time we discuss innovation in video games? Katamari Damacy is one game (and no, the sequels don't count in the "there is inovation argument). You're simply making the article's point.
I disagree. All of the PS2 owners I know own
Looking at the games library, the PS2 has some amazing games - Ico, Katamari, Shadow of the Colossus - but not more than about a dozen. And most of these didn't do too well. Frankly, even though the Cube has a lot less games, I think it has more innovative games.
It's just a different target audience.
Except the people who buy Zelda games might own a Gamecube and not a PS2. Okami would have sold better if it had appeared on a Nintendo console, even without renaming the characters.
Maybe on Sony's platforms, they have no chance. As far as I know, the PSP's Loco Roco didn't sell too well, just like Clover's games. Ico also didn't do too well, as far as I remember, despite being an amazing game. Katamari Damacy probably sold well, but it's still one of the very few really innovative games for the PS2 (and it's still always the first - and often only - game people bring up when listing innovative games on the PS2).
I think most people buying PS2s simply aren't that interested in quirky stuff. If they were, they wouldn't have bought the blandest, most common console available. Many PS2 gamers simply want their yearly Madden fix, a few generic RPGs and FPSs, and some of the good old GTA ultraviolence.
But look at Nintendo's consoles. The DS has a huge amount of creative, fresh, quirky games, and the Wii is already getting its fair share of them, too. And they are selling! I'm absolutely certain that Okami could have been a huge hit on the Wii.
Don't create innovative games for consoles whose buyers are mostly interested in so-called "mature" games and then come back crying if nobody buys your stuff.
The funny thing is, I own one of the GBA games, but when I started playing it, I couldn't really get into it. As far as I remember, it had a somewhat confusing cards scheme, not quite sure anymore. I'll go back and try again.
I think it should be the other way around. Printing a company's trade secrets should not be protected. There's no public interest (and by the way, the fact that you are interested in what Apple is doing does not imply public interest). However, if there is a public interest - such as in matters related to national security - the press must be absolutely free to print whatever they dig up, without fear of prosecution.
Apple is doing lots of crappy things (like forcing DRM on every iTunes download even when the rights holders don't require it), but in this case, I don't really get all the brouhaha. An employee of Apple leaked their trade secrets. Apple tried to figure out who it was and sued some rumor sites (btw, they aren't blogs). They lost, but I think they had a fair chance of winning, and it was their right to try it. What exactly is "evil" here?
I would gladly buy this game if I didn't have to also buy a 500 bucks console for the privilege, but alas...
I also can't use that PS1 hack since my firmware is too new. I guess I'll just have to go back and finish Portrait of Ruin for the time being :-)
Yeah, I didn't actually mean that most of use don't use Windows. I meant that most of us aren't working at Microsoft and thus are in no position to make it suck less.
I think most people are perfectly capable of inferring from context what the actual subject of a conversation is. Here's a hint: If a Windows user tells you that his PC sucks, he's probably talking about things he doesn't like in Windows, not about the ugly color of his minitower.
The rest of your rant isn't very clever, either. If you tell others to "stop talking shit," you might as well try and be the shining light we can all follow instead of ranting and raving about imaginary fanboys who presumably stole your toy when you were a toddler, or something similarly nefarious. Furthermore, the early 90s called. They want their "Macs are expensive and made of shiny plastic" rants back. Have you actually seen a Mac recently?
I own a PSP, but I have no idea how I would play that game on it. I have no PS3, and after having to put up with the PSP, I'm sure as hell not going to buy one. Do I need a PS3 to put PS games on the PSP? I would prefer to have it on the DS, because that's where it belongs: The dual screens are perfect for Metroidvania games, and the DS is simply more portable than the PSP.
Also, I can play my DS (fat) while taking a bath. I'm not going to do that with the more expensive PSP.
...and I think the main (and possibly only relevant) reason for its failure is that it sucks really, really hard. It's overly complicated, the buttons feel like phone buttons instead of like gamepad triggers, the screen size is only suitable for a very specific subset of all game genres, and it's too slow for 3D graphics, yet most games are in 3D.
There are about five playable games for the N-Gage (High Seize, Pathway to Glory 1 and 2, and... uh... okay, there are three).
True. I think they should remake it for the DS :-)
I meant "working on Windows" as in "being in a position where we can fix Windows' suckiness, i.e. working on Windows' code," not "sitting in front of a Windows box all day long."
Yeah, I agree, PCs should really stop sucking. However, I wonder why you're telling that to us. Most of us aren't working on Windows.
I'm afraid I'm too stupid to understand the point of your so eloquently stated question. Are you suggesting that creating a DVD on Windows is as easy as it is on a Mac? Having used both, I find this statement ludicrous, so it must be something else you're trying to tell me.
Pray tell, what is it?
I think you're just not getting it.
There already are Windows versions of all iLife apps. There's Movie Maker, there are DVD apps, and so on. The difference is that the ones on the Mac don't suck. And trust me, I've used most of the Windows based apps.
Also, I don't understand why you're so angry.
No. They do suggest that this stuff is easier on a Mac. Which is true.
What you're doing is reframing what we're discussing. Sure, if you re-define "success," you're correct, but it's pointless in the context of our original discussion - which was about Sony introducing a new PS3 controller to compete with the Wii remote.
Yeah, you can't go up to somebody and insult him, because you could get sued. Now tell me how this is related to an adult person selling another adult person a totally legal piece of merchandise.