How is.Net doing lately? a couple years ago it was like the end of all thing Java but I don't hear a lot about it now. Has it lost momentum or is quietly dominating? I hear more from Mono than from.Net.
Oracle does a significant pile of trash in Java, but that's only Oracle fault, not Java. For example istore violates every design recomendation given to junior Java programmers.
Jbuilder doesn't do that as far as I know. I think it just generates an exe stub for simplicity. There are a few compilers to native (Excelsior Jet comes to my mind) but I haven't tried them. I don't believe there's too much of a difference but you can test the trial. Your wish may be granted soon, though. I have tried a few programs with the new Java 1.5 beta and they "feel" definitely faster. Much better startup times and reduced memory consumption. Very worth of a look.
I'm trying Java 1.5 beta and seems to be a lot more faster and some memory less than before. Apps start much more faster than before. I didn't try.Net but is speed a virtue of MS.Net or Mono/dotGnu are fast in Linux?
See how wrong you are: I did the same, but when I installed Tomcat in the AS/400, unziped the archive (what? oh yes, the same archive in window & linux), run the startup script... and had to change a line of the startup script. After that the app works without change, but that prove Java isn't portable, isn't it? Oh, and those guys at apache tried to hide their miserable error changing the script in a later release, but you can't hide the truth as easily as WMD. Oh no sir. How do we deploy? Whenever we deploy our windows developed apps in Linux I concentrate and just think: there is no Java... there is no Java...
Re:Why do big companies want pseudo-compiled langs
on
How C# Was Made
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· Score: 1
The jump from assembly to C gave you a 10x boost in productivity, while the jump from C++ to Java gives you 0.1x boost. In reality, it gives you nothing, if the libraries you use are well written(Qt for example). Have you worked with Qt ? it is the best library ever written
I differe here, because I think library support is one of Java strengths, and one in which I find a boost in productivity.
I haven't used Qt, so I checked in teh feature list and it seems impresive, covering DB, XML, networking and graphics. I just would like to point that is not part of the standard, and I understand that you have to pay a licence for commercial closed source apps. I just mentioned it because other people think is free, not because I'm against it. Java has an even more functionality in is standard libs.
Java makes it very very easy to reuse third party, and there are lots of excelent ones, like those from Jakarta. Because the base types are standard, portable ABI and no need to recompile your program (no #include nonsense) you can just use without adapting or recompiling as many C/C++ libs. You don't have problems linking libs compiled from different compilers or platforms (for example: linking in C/C++ from two different compilers won't work because of different runtime libs, or C++ name decoring). So you have a lot of functionality in libs that can be reused as is that helps productivity a lot.
Re:Why do big companies want pseudo-compiled langs
on
How C# Was Made
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· Score: 1
You didn't say that. You explicitely said that you have never seen a java app with lots of casts. Don't try to change what you've said.
What I did say was "can't imagine a Java program full of casts" meaning casts on every line or near that. If I wasn't clear I apologize but I'm not changing things here. About RAII, yes it's not applicable to Java or other GC languages. But if you can write a C++ program without memory leaks you will have no problem closing every resource:-) Seriously, this may require a redesign depending of how resources are managed.
And why is it a drawback?
Because if there are less people trained to do a thing you have to search harder/pay more/train more before things get done. OTOH Java have this problem also, just there is a difference in the class of knowledge usually found on each language. On your example I agree with you on that there are apps that are better (or easier, or even could only be) implemented in the other language (be Java, C++ or basic). I'm just not ruling out that someone else could make an implementation that works good enough to satisfy the requirements in language X (where X could be Java).
fortran I'm not a Fortran programmer, if you say so, let it be.
Java is good in numerical computation I don't understand what is your point here. You first seemed to support the idea that Java was to slow to do this, now the opossite. Or where just mentioning the article? I'm a little lost here.
Eventually, Java will be equal to C++ I think that Java will always be slower (even a little) than C++. But I remember when most programs were made in assembler and C was the slow new language. C winned in the because it was easier (that subjetive concept) to write programs in, rather that because of it's speed.
there are very good garbage collectors for C++ While automatic GC is possible in C++ I don't found the concept appealing. C++ just wasn't designed for this.
Re:Sun Should Embrace and Extend
on
How C# Was Made
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· Score: 1
I have seen this in Delphi, and while it makes you write less I don't feel comfortable without knowing clearly what happens when I do an assignment.
Re:Why do big companies want pseudo-compiled langs
on
How C# Was Made
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· Score: 1
which means lots of casts.
What I mean is that I doubt very much that casts is the only or principal problem in Java performance.
My colleagues are always asking me how do I manage to write C++ apps without memory leaks. They don't understand it, but, even if they know C++, they have never really got into the language.
That's one important drawback on C++, very few really understand it.
There are numeric libraries around, like blitz++ which is just as fast as fortran for all known cases.
I have read in/. from Fortran programmers that C/C++ couldn't do a lot of useful optimizations than Fortran can do. I have never claimed Java is good on numerical intensive applications, like the fluid simulation you point. But it may getting a little nearer. The Osnew benchmark isn't a good one, except that it shows problems with Java implementation of trig functions. Those problems could be easily corrected by Sun if they even care.
In any case I think that we need more recent and well designed benchmarks, rather than theories on how it should be faster/slower than don't show in practice.
Don't worry I mean one SCO programmer not a lawyer! Non human DNA would show up at once.
Re:Why do big companies want pseudo-compiled langs
on
How C# Was Made
·
· Score: 1
from the moment a Java program uses casts (that is, every Java program), it's by definition slower than the equivalent C/C++ program)
May be you mean that a cast in cast is slower that a cast in C?? Don't let reality disturb you but just with a little googling you can find some article with facts about Java speed and how could it be faster than C.
Imagine a C++ program full of dynamic casts!!!
I can't. I also can't imagine a Java program full of casts. Most I have seen or written have only a few casts.
I know many programmers who use C++ and QT who are as productive as the Java ones.
A programmer could be productive in any language. When talking about language productivity I usually assume it's refered to a general case, in some context. Example: I believe most programmers are more productive in Java for database enterprise apps than in Oracle PRO/C (Yuck!). Also the Java database programs are more portable and independent of the DB.
any competent C++ programmer will tell you C++ deficiencies right away
Not always. Some C++ programmer have their C++ hats down to the waist making them virtually (:-) blind to other languages features. By example take STL, which many believe is an end in itself when it should be a means.
I also used Inno setup with good results. It had some features that NSIS didn't and we switched to it. Very good so far. It is actively being developed.
Slashdot Mirror
And the most expensive celebrations it seems.
How is .Net doing lately? a couple years ago it was like the end of all thing Java but I don't hear a lot about it now. Has it lost momentum or is quietly dominating? I hear more from Mono than from .Net.
Antlr, sablecc: lexer and parser generators.
Jedit, Jext: code editors.
Eclipse, Netbeans, JBuilder: IDEs
Azureus: bittorrent client
jdbc: sql drivers for every database
Gantproyect: clone of ms project
report tools
sql frontends
jgraph: framework to write drawing applications.
Games
sshtools: ssh and ssh vnc client
For starters in souceforge.net there 11000+ projects in Java.
Oracle does a significant pile of trash in Java, but that's only Oracle fault, not Java. For example istore violates every design recomendation given to junior Java programmers.
Everyone we know in the world read Slashdot.
but then ESR don't have a company and gives away his assets. All the market should hear his economical advise :-)
Jbuilder doesn't do that as far as I know. I think it just generates an exe stub for simplicity. There are a few compilers to native (Excelsior Jet comes to my mind) but I haven't tried them. I don't believe there's too much of a difference but you can test the trial.
Your wish may be granted soon, though. I have tried a few programs with the new Java 1.5 beta and they "feel" definitely faster. Much better startup times and reduced memory consumption. Very worth of a look.
I'm trying Java 1.5 beta and seems to be a lot more faster and some memory less than before. Apps start much more faster than before. .Net but is speed a virtue of MS .Net or Mono/dotGnu are fast in Linux?
I didn't try
But then Java works and is useful.
See how wrong you are: I did the same, but when I installed Tomcat in the AS/400, unziped the archive (what? oh yes, the same archive in window & linux), run the startup script... and had to change a line of the startup script. After that the app works without change, but that prove Java isn't portable, isn't it?
Oh, and those guys at apache tried to hide their miserable error changing the script in a later release, but you can't hide the truth as easily as WMD. Oh no sir.
How do we deploy? Whenever we deploy our windows developed apps in Linux I concentrate and just think: there is no Java... there is no Java...
Then someone should tell that to SCO! Gosh, I hope it's not too late...
...after the WMD are found?
Doesn't TCL/TK fit the bill here?
No.
Mmh, perhaps I should be clearer:
NO.
What if the DRM source code leaks ;-)
The jump from assembly to C gave you a 10x boost in productivity, while the jump from C++ to Java gives you 0.1x boost. In reality, it gives you nothing, if the libraries you use are well written(Qt for example). Have you worked with Qt ? it is the best library ever written
I differe here, because I think library support is one of Java strengths, and one in which I find a boost in productivity.
I haven't used Qt, so I checked in teh feature list and it seems impresive, covering DB, XML, networking and graphics. I just would like to point that is not part of the standard, and I understand that you have to pay a licence for commercial closed source apps. I just mentioned it because other people think is free, not because I'm against it.
Java has an even more functionality in is standard libs.
Java makes it very very easy to reuse third party, and there are lots of excelent ones, like those from Jakarta. Because the base types are standard, portable ABI and no need to recompile your program (no #include nonsense) you can just use without adapting or recompiling as many C/C++ libs. You don't have problems linking libs compiled from different compilers or platforms (for example: linking in C/C++ from two different compilers won't work because of different runtime libs, or C++ name decoring). So you have a lot of functionality in libs that can be reused as is that helps productivity a lot.
You didn't say that. You explicitely said that you have never seen a java app with lots of casts. Don't try to change what you've said.
:-) Seriously, this may require a redesign depending of how resources are managed.
What I did say was "can't imagine a Java program full of casts" meaning casts on every line or near that. If I wasn't clear I apologize but I'm not changing things here.
About RAII, yes it's not applicable to Java or other GC languages. But if you can write a C++ program without memory leaks you will have no problem closing every resource
And why is it a drawback?
Because if there are less people trained to do a thing you have to search harder/pay more/train more before things get done. OTOH Java have this problem also, just there is a difference in the class of knowledge usually found on each language.
On your example I agree with you on that there are apps that are better (or easier, or even could only be) implemented in the other language (be Java, C++ or basic). I'm just not ruling out that someone else could make an implementation that works good enough to satisfy the requirements in language X (where X could be Java).
fortran
I'm not a Fortran programmer, if you say so, let it be.
Java is good in numerical computation
I don't understand what is your point here. You first seemed to support the idea that Java was to slow to do this, now the opossite. Or where just mentioning the article? I'm a little lost here.
Eventually, Java will be equal to C++
I think that Java will always be slower (even a little) than C++. But I remember when most programs were made in assembler and C was the slow new language. C winned in the because it was easier (that subjetive concept) to write programs in, rather that because of it's speed.
there are very good garbage collectors for C++
While automatic GC is possible in C++ I don't found the concept appealing. C++ just wasn't designed for this.
I have seen this in Delphi, and while it makes you write less I don't feel comfortable without knowing clearly what happens when I do an assignment.
which means lots of casts.
/. from Fortran programmers that C/C++ couldn't do a lot of useful optimizations than Fortran can do.
What I mean is that I doubt very much that casts is the only or principal problem in Java performance.
My colleagues are always asking me how do I manage to write C++ apps without memory leaks. They don't understand it, but, even if they know C++, they have never really got into the language.
That's one important drawback on C++, very few really understand it.
There are numeric libraries around, like blitz++ which is just as fast as fortran for all known cases.
I have read in
I have never claimed Java is good on numerical intensive applications, like the fluid simulation you point. But it may getting a little nearer.
The Osnew benchmark isn't a good one, except that it shows problems with Java implementation of trig functions. Those problems could be easily corrected by Sun if they even care.
In any case I think that we need more recent and well designed benchmarks, rather than theories on how it should be faster/slower than don't show in practice.
Don't worry I mean one SCO programmer not a lawyer! Non human DNA would show up at once.
from the moment a Java program uses casts (that is, every Java program), it's by definition slower than the equivalent C/C++ program)
May be you mean that a cast in cast is slower that a cast in C??
Don't let reality disturb you but just with a little googling you can find some article with facts about Java speed and how could it be faster than C.
Imagine a C++ program full of dynamic casts!!!
I can't. I also can't imagine a Java program full of casts. Most I have seen or written have only a few casts.
I know many programmers who use C++ and QT who are as productive as the Java ones.
A programmer could be productive in any language. When talking about language productivity I usually assume it's refered to a general case, in some context. Example: I believe most programmers are more productive in Java for database enterprise apps than in Oracle PRO/C (Yuck!). Also the Java database programs are more portable and independent of the DB.
any competent C++ programmer will tell you C++ deficiencies right away
Not always. Some C++ programmer have their C++ hats down to the waist making them virtually (:-) blind to other languages features. By example take STL, which many believe is an end in itself when it should be a means.
It was more scriptable, it has a scripting language based on Pascal. Sorry I don't remember the details.
May be but if you distribute windows apps that use those features you have to live with it. Those installers are your friend here.
Mind to explain why do you think Java sucks and what's the difference with C# that doesn't?
What!? I just bought every violent game hoping to convert from geeky game player into the incredible hulk. Now they tell me it doesn't work!
I also used Inno setup with good results. It had some features that NSIS didn't and we switched to it. Very good so far. It is actively being developed.