Thats a funny definition I would consider a 1/1000 shot to be significantly to probable course I build thingswith lots of 9's in there desired uptimes and 1 in 1000 is only 99.9%. A one in a billion chance to me means that there are 6.5 people currently living on the planet that are matches meaning there are 5 other posible people that that to me is a reasonable ammount of doubt.
Yea it's definatly wise to trust them but there all allways kids that are an exception course they might be better served with military school than a phone with tracking but thats up the the parent.
If your boss gets these cell phones great dont want to be tracked pull the battery out while in the car. This is realy no worse that truckers being tracked like they are now. For your kids well hrm they dont have any reasonable expectation of privacy untill 18 from there parents at least. Well I hope they dont if I'm civily responcible for them. Now the funny thing before everybody cries out about them getting warents to get the info guess what they can do this now I have worked with a phone company to send this data back.
Yup like they should do. DNA proves that you have been in contact with a person or somewhere that person has been. It's one thing if it's semen and there massive ammounts of blood (a speckle could be somebody sneezing while walking down the street) Still with semn you prove that something put the semen wherever it ended up. Blood can be defensive wounds blood can be planted. Realy at best you have proven that the person had a good chance of being there unless somebody set them up (ok thats a tin foil hat thing but it happens)
No it would just mean less design and more information. Now granted I was putting out web pages back in 95. I dont think I have even seen a client that wont display information it's just they all handle the ugly tacked on formating badly.
Why should a webpage know about care about or generaly have anything to do with display size? It should be formated to work as text on an arbitray sized screen. Or no screen at all for that matter. You know I allmost wish they made the liscence to use HTML revocable upon doing stupid things like flash, animated Gif's and anything else that strayed form the purpose of delivering information to all people no matter what there encumberances are.
Re:What's the power curve on that?
on
Replacing SMTP?
·
· Score: 1
OK maybe from your run of the mill ISP not so in the corprate world if they want to be protected. Generaly mail looks like this.
I show at least four server on a corp to corp email. Persoanly it's gernaly two SMTP servers on the way out one on the lan that forwards to my ISP if they happen to be down it goes direct.
Re:not the answer - you got that right!
on
Replacing SMTP?
·
· Score: 1
DNS is nearly definatly the place to put this sort of thing. But your correct that some DNS implementations are broken to arbirary data types. Why not go with a known good working the A record. It's as simple as a mailer must claim a name generaly something like mail01.foo.com just require that that name resolve to it's IP with that you have verified the mailserver domain. You could also do a standardized query for some low probability of use name like smtpserververificationtest.yourdmain.com that should return back the IP's of any SMTP server that should be sending mail for the domain.
Mail should get sent via a server in it's domain this isn't allways pretty I know plenty of hosting servers that have thousands of domains on them and send mail for those domains. It would be fairly trivial to update there code to report xxx. and just append that record to every zone file.
Now for people that just have to send mail via some other server A why? just use user authentication thats allready avalible via SMTP B if you realy have to you control the domain you can add that IP to the list of authorized ones (granted not a perfect solution as more than a handfull of IP's and your above a DNS packet size limit and that specific IP might not get sent. Dynamic DNS could be usefull for this for the DSL server people (this should be depreciated what is the big deal with using your ISP's SMTP and failing over to your local)
Now dont make this a required to work function on day one do a slow migration let the features migrate in. Once a large mass of servers support this feature it could go to required. In the interum pass this information to the client as a header so it can preferance the mail up or down based upon the information.
Have you ever been in your average Realestate office? Forget not having an IT department they generaly have one or two Computer Pro's that still think AOL is the next best thing to sliced bread but have figured out how to play sneaker net and attach things to email along with a reboot here and there. Often the recptionist is dual duty with helping with the computers and filing the weekly advertisements. This is not exactly a high tech business. MPLS listings are considered high tech and having a shared printer is cutting edge. BTW this is from persoanl expeieince with the Ravis (a moderatly large realestate company) and a lot of locals.
Well Bio agents can be pretty light and not that hard to disperse over large areas. I wouldent call it unstopable just particulary hard and nearly unstopable in large numbers (can you see a few hundred of them in a formation) To small to shoot with missles to slow to attack from a jet realy it would be the helicopters who could probably just fly over the things and send them into the sea via there prop wash (thats for planes same thing for choppers?) but if all else fails machine guns work.
Free speach dosent mean people need to listen to you you cant break into my house or even yell at my house to excersize your free speach. Ads are not nessicarily free speach either they are used for business and have there own set of laws. I can say I think AOL sucks and nobody should use it. Earthlink can state facts but cant slander there compotition or deliver false of misleading statements I can if I choose to as long as it's my persoanl opinion and isn't outright dangerious like C construction made this building and they allwasy make fault buildings this place is about to fall down in a crowded room in a serious or paniced manner.
If the ISP's set a default page to there stuff cool who ever installs ISP software? OK Grandma did and your cousins but it' just an isue of education how many people have Google as there homepage or Yahoo or MSN realy it's there preferance just like picking up the Wall Streat Jurnal or the New York Times there is a choice to the user as long as the choice is protected and people are educated that there is a choice it's not an issue.
Re:Will receive email for work.
on
Replacing SMTP?
·
· Score: 1
Again work units require a new extension to SMTP not a bad thing but why bother with a cludge when your redesigning something? Wouldent verifying the from and reply to domains via DNS and cryptography be better (IE have them sign the mail with the senders domain PGP key with there public key avalible as a long standardized DNS string) This is easy for a email list as it only has to sign it once per message not once per recipient spammers rely on difference in each message that would would require them to sign each message individualy to keep there unique identifer strings intact.
This all being said wouldent it be better to verify the sender domain at least. Require that it works to comply with the new spec and add in some other goddies like encryted transport. Standardized receiver headers so MUA can make better descisions as to spam. Even if this would just make it so you cant forge sender domains (and sender domains can easily verify users it's in the spec now but should be required) and it needs to be an extension of the existing SMTp so people can slowly migrate to it.
Re:Will receive email for work.
on
Replacing SMTP?
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
OK now you have to check to see that that work is valid that also takes a second or two. Your talking about a spammer arms race they will get nice shiny new SMTP work unit coprocs on a PCI card that can do it in a few milliseconds (remember how they broke DES in 48 hours) or better yet a calculated list of every possible work unit? Spammers make money with email to just about everybody else it's a cost center so they can afford to get piles of machines to send there junk everybody else on the planet cant.
SMTP works for it's intended purpose lets extend it to SMTPv3 (I think it's been extended once allready) So here is a general brainstorming.
If you exent it two servers with the extensions will send mail in the new more secured format.
Frst things first keep it friendly you should be able to do everything via telnet because it jsut makes testing easy.
So what do you need a little bit on how to get into this new mode once your connected to port 25.
The server must offer what encryption methods it allows as a list more perfered methods first. Unencrypted should be an option all senders and receivers MUST allow it as encryption is nice but CPU heavy and you can allays depreciate enencrypted senders.
There should be a DNS entry for the sending mail servier in the domain that the from address and the reply to address originate (some new DNS field well it's a nice big distributed DB with cache so why not?) This needs more work and it sorta outside of scope.
If the sender domain is part of the servers domain of responcibility the server must use the from and replyto addresses to authenticate the user(s) passwords via CHAP, Kerebros etc this MUST be done after the encrypted state is up and can NOT allow unencrypted passwords and perferable uses a CHAP like system where the password is never on the wire.
The receiving server must include all options specified by the sending server as message headers.
The server MUST only accept mail that is destined to it's domains or source from one of it's domains if accompinied with valid credentials.
A server to server intermediary authentication may be implemented.
OK thats no where near completed but it's a start.
They make them people dont buy them for home PC's. Lets look at the numbers:
A 1 Gig Stick of DDR400 is $166 today on pricewatch in 512 sitcks it's a little cheaper per gig like 148 a gig but thats 2 sticks.
Why would you get a 200 card + ram if you dont have it (not everybody have 10 or 20 gigs of older ram floating around) and 2 gigs of slower memory is about 150 again making the total cost of this solution not counting that paltry 256 is more expensive and slower than just getting 2 gigs of DDR400. If you bring the cost of the card down to 150 it's break even but slower overall than just throwing 2 gigs of DDR in the box. Granted when you have a system maxed out at 3.5 gigs (I know you can go higher but that is an ugly hack I've done it under Windows and Linux it's just not pretty.) SO realy you more and more looking at a server niche market.
People have been doing this for years in a variety of ways. You dont even need PC133 unless it's going into something with PCI-X. Unfortunaly it's the cost of aquiring these drives that turns people off to using them the way you have described. The RAM may be cheap to sonk costs from your last box but the PCI cards generaly run more than your average PC same goes for the SCSI based ones (A little slower but it dosent take up a PCI slot by itself)
Yea it seems they are advicating a UK TV approach at least to music so if you have an ISP you pay the tax through them. AKA if you have an internet connection you have to pay. Hope thats only a residential internet connection I would hate to have a new charge on an OC3 or above if it's based on bandwith avalible.
So your pretty much for enacting a tax that would give back to the movie record and software industry to compensate them for copyright infringement? This sounds ungly who gets to decide the value of the software does MS get a huge chunk because office 2005 costs $2005 a copy with Sony recods decide it's music is worth more etc etc etc. Sure you could give a fixed rate but that ruins the small expensive custom applications like say Oracle server that wont make it up in volume (assuming that the taxes get distributed by volume?) And wouldent monoply powers just play into this anyway with the recond industry cutting deals to host there realy fast servers on prem to scew the download results of top 20's garbage if they are so much faster more people will download them.
OK first off remember Linksys realy dosent make very much of anything it got these AP's internals from Broadcom. Had a bunch of SDK warriors put there logo on everything and called it there so did a few other companies. They were told it had GPLed software so they released the GPLed software not nessicarily knowing if broadcom changed it or not realy it's broadcom that people should be putting preasure on about complying with the GPL section 3.
But then you have the fun of civil suits in the US. The ISP says it's your connection and they sue you you now need to prove it wasent you. So you get to pick who you are going to prove did it besides you. Ok sounds like a good reason to run an insecure wireless AP and blame it on a "cracker":)
I doubt it's a question of making money off of it (if your making money you wouldent put up with the issues of serving on broadband when $99 a month virtual dedicated can be had with better bandwith) I think the mentality of ISP's in general is that you agreed to a contract aka the TOS for the service and sometimes in that TOS is says run no services be happy they allow any TCP connections to be initiated inbound to residential. The fact is there isn't enough variety out there so usersare stuck picking the least bad service. Business class service out where I live is a similar cost as residential with the relaxed TOS and a SLA not a bad deal overall spend a littl emore each month and actualy get a person out to fix it.
Oh I use DDNS from my own servers if they go under I dont have to worry about it. And I didn't say free pay for services rendered it generaly gets you better services.
They arent terified of people running private servers they just dont allow it for the most part on residential anything. Thats what business class service is for.
Actualy the hard part of IPv6 is the enormous ammount of previously somewhat protected hosts comming online (do you realy want your fridge to be reachable on the internet without a VPN or other security?) Static IP's dont mean much with dynamic DNS the only services I would realy need static IP's for would be DNS servers that host public zones.
The better question is enforcing a law the hurts nobody make any sence? Granted I'm all for if your speeding and get into an accident it's your fault but otherwise there is no downside outside of some rampant eco complaints.
Hrm they have a whole class A and this is important why? So they have a lot of address space so does IBM and a lot of other big places. Lets remember some things. 32 bits used to look like so huge it wouldent matter. The internet was made in the USA for better or worse we took a liones share of it's resources. Forcing countries to switch to IPv6 hrm I thaught thats a good thing it's no worse than nat as to get to v4 you will use NAT while I like a good NAT most people around here dont. BTW IPv6 the DSL provider might still only give you one IP address free. IP addresses are not given out well I have a 4 year old/18 that belongs to a defunt company that they refuse to reuse. Oh yea BTW to the best of my knoledge no regional IP provider has been refused an alocation yet so there isn't a shortage yet.
I think you have stumbled onto the big missing peice of telecommuting remote presence. I do a LOT of telecommuting and manage a lot of people that telecommute. A lot of this is do to necicity of not being able to get skilled workers in place when a problem arises (I am a network and systems arch aka the glue guy that has to make all the POS programers bloatware work and scale) If you institure telepresence where you actualy have a constant audio and posible video feed along with colabrotive whiteboarding now you have a virtual group you can know who steve is and that he is grumpy in the morning and a Linux zelot and Mary is a workaholic but never documents squat. This gives that general group consiousness.
Now none of this aleviates the fact that I can get programmers for minimum wage or less out of India. The primary problem over there is to many of them were motivated by the decent middle class pay not a talent for the work.
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Thats a funny definition I would consider a 1/1000 shot to be significantly to probable course I build thingswith lots of 9's in there desired uptimes and 1 in 1000 is only 99.9%. A one in a billion chance to me means that there are 6.5 people currently living on the planet that are matches meaning there are 5 other posible people that that to me is a reasonable ammount of doubt.
Yea it's definatly wise to trust them but there all allways kids that are an exception course they might be better served with military school than a phone with tracking but thats up the the parent.
If your boss gets these cell phones great dont want to be tracked pull the battery out while in the car. This is realy no worse that truckers being tracked like they are now. For your kids well hrm they dont have any reasonable expectation of privacy untill 18 from there parents at least. Well I hope they dont if I'm civily responcible for them. Now the funny thing before everybody cries out about them getting warents to get the info guess what they can do this now I have worked with a phone company to send this data back.
Yup like they should do. DNA proves that you have been in contact with a person or somewhere that person has been. It's one thing if it's semen and there massive ammounts of blood (a speckle could be somebody sneezing while walking down the street) Still with semn you prove that something put the semen wherever it ended up. Blood can be defensive wounds blood can be planted. Realy at best you have proven that the person had a good chance of being there unless somebody set them up (ok thats a tin foil hat thing but it happens)
No it would just mean less design and more information. Now granted I was putting out web pages back in 95. I dont think I have even seen a client that wont display information it's just they all handle the ugly tacked on formating badly.
Why should a webpage know about care about or generaly have anything to do with display size? It should be formated to work as text on an arbitray sized screen. Or no screen at all for that matter. You know I allmost wish they made the liscence to use HTML revocable upon doing stupid things like flash, animated Gif's and anything else that strayed form the purpose of delivering information to all people no matter what there encumberances are.
OK maybe from your run of the mill ISP not so in the corprate world if they want to be protected. Generaly mail looks like this.
Exchange / Domino --> firewall proxy / outgoing SMTP server --> incomming SMTP server / firewall proxy --> exchange / Domino
I show at least four server on a corp to corp email. Persoanly it's gernaly two SMTP servers on the way out one on the lan that forwards to my ISP if they happen to be down it goes direct.
DNS is nearly definatly the place to put this sort of thing. But your correct that some DNS implementations are broken to arbirary data types. Why not go with a known good working the A record. It's as simple as a mailer must claim a name generaly something like mail01.foo.com just require that that name resolve to it's IP with that you have verified the mailserver domain. You could also do a standardized query for some low probability of use name like smtpserververificationtest.yourdmain.com that should return back the IP's of any SMTP server that should be sending mail for the domain.
Mail should get sent via a server in it's domain this isn't allways pretty I know plenty of hosting servers that have thousands of domains on them and send mail for those domains. It would be fairly trivial to update there code to report xxx. and just append that record to every zone file.
Now for people that just have to send mail via some other server A why? just use user authentication thats allready avalible via SMTP B if you realy have to you control the domain you can add that IP to the list of authorized ones (granted not a perfect solution as more than a handfull of IP's and your above a DNS packet size limit and that specific IP might not get sent. Dynamic DNS could be usefull for this for the DSL server people (this should be depreciated what is the big deal with using your ISP's SMTP and failing over to your local)
Now dont make this a required to work function on day one do a slow migration let the features migrate in. Once a large mass of servers support this feature it could go to required. In the interum pass this information to the client as a header so it can preferance the mail up or down based upon the information.
Have you ever been in your average Realestate office? Forget not having an IT department they generaly have one or two Computer Pro's that still think AOL is the next best thing to sliced bread but have figured out how to play sneaker net and attach things to email along with a reboot here and there. Often the recptionist is dual duty with helping with the computers and filing the weekly advertisements. This is not exactly a high tech business. MPLS listings are considered high tech and having a shared printer is cutting edge. BTW this is from persoanl expeieince with the Ravis (a moderatly large realestate company) and a lot of locals.
Well Bio agents can be pretty light and not that hard to disperse over large areas. I wouldent call it unstopable just particulary hard and nearly unstopable in large numbers (can you see a few hundred of them in a formation) To small to shoot with missles to slow to attack from a jet realy it would be the helicopters who could probably just fly over the things and send them into the sea via there prop wash (thats for planes same thing for choppers?) but if all else fails machine guns work.
So whats next the little submarine version?
Free speach dosent mean people need to listen to you you cant break into my house or even yell at my house to excersize your free speach. Ads are not nessicarily free speach either they are used for business and have there own set of laws. I can say I think AOL sucks and nobody should use it. Earthlink can state facts but cant slander there compotition or deliver false of misleading statements I can if I choose to as long as it's my persoanl opinion and isn't outright dangerious like C construction made this building and they allwasy make fault buildings this place is about to fall down in a crowded room in a serious or paniced manner.
If the ISP's set a default page to there stuff cool who ever installs ISP software? OK Grandma did and your cousins but it' just an isue of education how many people have Google as there homepage or Yahoo or MSN realy it's there preferance just like picking up the Wall Streat Jurnal or the New York Times there is a choice to the user as long as the choice is protected and people are educated that there is a choice it's not an issue.
Again work units require a new extension to SMTP not a bad thing but why bother with a cludge when your redesigning something? Wouldent verifying the from and reply to domains via DNS and cryptography be better (IE have them sign the mail with the senders domain PGP key with there public key avalible as a long standardized DNS string) This is easy for a email list as it only has to sign it once per message not once per recipient spammers rely on difference in each message that would would require them to sign each message individualy to keep there unique identifer strings intact.
This all being said wouldent it be better to verify the sender domain at least. Require that it works to comply with the new spec and add in some other goddies like encryted transport. Standardized receiver headers so MUA can make better descisions as to spam. Even if this would just make it so you cant forge sender domains (and sender domains can easily verify users it's in the spec now but should be required) and it needs to be an extension of the existing SMTp so people can slowly migrate to it.
OK now you have to check to see that that work is valid that also takes a second or two. Your talking about a spammer arms race they will get nice shiny new SMTP work unit coprocs on a PCI card that can do it in a few milliseconds (remember how they broke DES in 48 hours) or better yet a calculated list of every possible work unit? Spammers make money with email to just about everybody else it's a cost center so they can afford to get piles of machines to send there junk everybody else on the planet cant.
SMTP works for it's intended purpose lets extend it to SMTPv3 (I think it's been extended once allready) So here is a general brainstorming.
If you exent it two servers with the extensions will send mail in the new more secured format.
Frst things first keep it friendly you should be able to do everything via telnet because it jsut makes testing easy.
So what do you need a little bit on how to get into this new mode once your connected to port 25.
The server must offer what encryption methods it allows as a list more perfered methods first. Unencrypted should be an option all senders and receivers MUST allow it as encryption is nice but CPU heavy and you can allays depreciate enencrypted senders.
There should be a DNS entry for the sending mail servier in the domain that the from address and the reply to address originate (some new DNS field well it's a nice big distributed DB with cache so why not?) This needs more work and it sorta outside of scope.
If the sender domain is part of the servers domain of responcibility the server must use the from and replyto addresses to authenticate the user(s) passwords via CHAP, Kerebros etc this MUST be done after the encrypted state is up and can NOT allow unencrypted passwords and perferable uses a CHAP like system where the password is never on the wire.
The receiving server must include all options specified by the sending server as message headers.
The server MUST only accept mail that is destined to it's domains or source from one of it's domains if accompinied with valid credentials.
A server to server intermediary authentication may be implemented.
OK thats no where near completed but it's a start.
They make them people dont buy them for home PC's. Lets look at the numbers:
A 1 Gig Stick of DDR400 is $166 today on pricewatch in 512 sitcks it's a little cheaper per gig like 148 a gig but thats 2 sticks.
Why would you get a 200 card + ram if you dont have it (not everybody have 10 or 20 gigs of older ram floating around) and 2 gigs of slower memory is about 150 again making the total cost of this solution not counting that paltry 256 is more expensive and slower than just getting 2 gigs of DDR400. If you bring the cost of the card down to 150 it's break even but slower overall than just throwing 2 gigs of DDR in the box. Granted when you have a system maxed out at 3.5 gigs (I know you can go higher but that is an ugly hack I've done it under Windows and Linux it's just not pretty.) SO realy you more and more looking at a server niche market.
People have been doing this for years in a variety of ways. You dont even need PC133 unless it's going into something with PCI-X. Unfortunaly it's the cost of aquiring these drives that turns people off to using them the way you have described. The RAM may be cheap to sonk costs from your last box but the PCI cards generaly run more than your average PC same goes for the SCSI based ones (A little slower but it dosent take up a PCI slot by itself)
Yea it seems they are advicating a UK TV approach at least to music so if you have an ISP you pay the tax through them. AKA if you have an internet connection you have to pay. Hope thats only a residential internet connection I would hate to have a new charge on an OC3 or above if it's based on bandwith avalible.
So your pretty much for enacting a tax that would give back to the movie record and software industry to compensate them for copyright infringement? This sounds ungly who gets to decide the value of the software does MS get a huge chunk because office 2005 costs $2005 a copy with Sony recods decide it's music is worth more etc etc etc. Sure you could give a fixed rate but that ruins the small expensive custom applications like say Oracle server that wont make it up in volume (assuming that the taxes get distributed by volume?) And wouldent monoply powers just play into this anyway with the recond industry cutting deals to host there realy fast servers on prem to scew the download results of top 20's garbage if they are so much faster more people will download them.
OK first off remember Linksys realy dosent make very much of anything it got these AP's internals from Broadcom. Had a bunch of SDK warriors put there logo on everything and called it there so did a few other companies. They were told it had GPLed software so they released the GPLed software not nessicarily knowing if broadcom changed it or not realy it's broadcom that people should be putting preasure on about complying with the GPL section 3.
But then you have the fun of civil suits in the US. The ISP says it's your connection and they sue you you now need to prove it wasent you. So you get to pick who you are going to prove did it besides you. Ok sounds like a good reason to run an insecure wireless AP and blame it on a "cracker" :)
I doubt it's a question of making money off of it (if your making money you wouldent put up with the issues of serving on broadband when $99 a month virtual dedicated can be had with better bandwith) I think the mentality of ISP's in general is that you agreed to a contract aka the TOS for the service and sometimes in that TOS is says run no services be happy they allow any TCP connections to be initiated inbound to residential. The fact is there isn't enough variety out there so usersare stuck picking the least bad service. Business class service out where I live is a similar cost as residential with the relaxed TOS and a SLA not a bad deal overall spend a littl emore each month and actualy get a person out to fix it.
Oh I use DDNS from my own servers if they go under I dont have to worry about it. And I didn't say free pay for services rendered it generaly gets you better services.
They arent terified of people running private servers they just dont allow it for the most part on residential anything. Thats what business class service is for.
Actualy the hard part of IPv6 is the enormous ammount of previously somewhat protected hosts comming online (do you realy want your fridge to be reachable on the internet without a VPN or other security?) Static IP's dont mean much with dynamic DNS the only services I would realy need static IP's for would be DNS servers that host public zones.
The better question is enforcing a law the hurts nobody make any sence? Granted I'm all for if your speeding and get into an accident it's your fault but otherwise there is no downside outside of some rampant eco complaints.
Hrm they have a whole class A and this is important why? So they have a lot of address space so does IBM and a lot of other big places. Lets remember some things. 32 bits used to look like so huge it wouldent matter. The internet was made in the USA for better or worse we took a liones share of it's resources. Forcing countries to switch to IPv6 hrm I thaught thats a good thing it's no worse than nat as to get to v4 you will use NAT while I like a good NAT most people around here dont. BTW IPv6 the DSL provider might still only give you one IP address free. IP addresses are not given out well I have a 4 year old /18 that belongs to a defunt company that they refuse to reuse. Oh yea BTW to the best of my knoledge no regional IP provider has been refused an alocation yet so there isn't a shortage yet.
I think you have stumbled onto the big missing peice of telecommuting remote presence. I do a LOT of telecommuting and manage a lot of people that telecommute. A lot of this is do to necicity of not being able to get skilled workers in place when a problem arises (I am a network and systems arch aka the glue guy that has to make all the POS programers bloatware work and scale) If you institure telepresence where you actualy have a constant audio and posible video feed along with colabrotive whiteboarding now you have a virtual group you can know who steve is and that he is grumpy in the morning and a Linux zelot and Mary is a workaholic but never documents squat. This gives that general group consiousness.
Now none of this aleviates the fact that I can get programmers for minimum wage or less out of India. The primary problem over there is to many of them were motivated by the decent middle class pay not a talent for the work.