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Corporate Fallout Detector
BandwidthHog writes "MIT student shows off Corporate Fallout Detector. Acts and looks kinda like a Geiger counter, but it's a UPC scanner with an internal, updateable database of corporate misdeeds, with both Pollution and Corporate Ethics modes. I want one."
here is a mirror of the movie
So... I scan a product. :: beep beep ::
And I get free, instant, corporation level blackmail?
Sweet.
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
it was slashdotted before anyone even replied to the posting of this article.
While this kid makes a funny point, one thing that's missing is the fact that a UPC barcode only links to the manufacturer or wholesale distributor of the finished good. Taking the trail back into the supply chain to contract manufacturers and raw materials suppliers would probably yield more enviro-nastiness than you'd find in consumer-oriented companies.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
It's a good thing that Enron and Worldcom products can't be barcoded, because the thing would explode if it scanned any of those...
The guy in that video was handling that Diet Coke bottle and that 3M spray can without any sort of protection at all, and those readings were through the roof!
I give him two to four hours, tops. Oh, what a brave sacrifice for research. I hope his suffering isn't prolonged needlessly.
Yeah, like that's gonna survive a front-page link...
magic smoke and keep a copy of quicktime ready
Has anyone seen OpenGov MIT Project ? What is it with all this uncovering business, can't the creatures at MIT leave our act of a society alone?
movie mirror
So, what happens if you scan one of these detectors with another detector?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
with the size of my boss, a "corporate fallout" would prove deadly to anyone trapped underneath.. heh.. no seriously.. i'll be here all week.. 8)
I'll only hate you because you're a first year-
Why are you a computer science student at an Ivy League?
Supposedly so important that they only need be known by their initials. So do they have a monopoly on math and science? Or can any other school (or individual person) develop a sufficient weapon to wipe this "MIT" off the map?
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
This thing is actually bad for the conscientious consumers. The author states in the article: "Of course the data produced by this approach is subjective and inaccurate at times". It's is subjective and inaccurate ALL the time. Informed consumers should know what not to buy and they should know WHY not to buy it. This "dumbing down" of informed consumption is not good for anyone for several reasons: 1. the data will be wrong. 2. the data will be hacked and good people will be blacklisted and bad people whitelisted. 3. lawsuits will occur.
just my $.02
Why do I h8 apple?
... all is forgiven.
here
--
Does that mean any Microsoft product will set it off? Anything directly related to Enron would definately blow a fuse.
Does really seem to show much, but the original site /.'d...
google cache
<article text>
Corporate Fallout Detector
The Corporate Fallout Detector reads barcodes off of consumer products, and makes a noise similar to a gieger counter of varying intensity based on the social or environmental record of the company that produces the product.
I came up with the numbers by correlating several online bardcode databases with a pollution database and a corporate ethics database. Of course the data produced by this approach is subjective and inaccurate at times, but that's part of why I built it: It's difficult for consumers trace corporate actions through the maze of corporate ownership, and find who is really responsible. This helps create an environment where consumers have difficulty making informed purchasing decisions.... without the use of "special tools"...
The case is made from a discarded steel computer case, cut on a waterjet cutter and bent with a metal brake. Inside is a SaJe microcontroller and a Wasp barcode scanner.
Click on the thumbnails at left for larger images.
</article text>
After looking at this and all other articles pertaining to MIT generating massive amounts of ingenuity and vigilant social intelligence such as this bizarre device, my question is: how many more years will pass until MIT's home-grown nerd-mercenaries release their top-secret 9 Android Devils of Cambridge on the earth, therein enslaving man in a gruesome and enlightening web of technology, power and fashion emergencies?
If I could make this sig kill you, I would.
"Mommy, why does this Worldcom calling card emit a coherent tone when I scan it?"
It tells you what product you have in your hands. All you have to do is the requisit research into the product. So if I scan an XBox the thing could figure the fallout from Microsoft and flextronics and any other companies who's products are inside. If I scan a copy of Windows XP, it would give me just the fallout from MS.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Thats great. Another MIT dweeb attempts to take the moral high ground. Meanwhile MIT sit on an entire Class A address block, as entire countries are forced to switch to IPv6. Got a scanner for that fallout?
I can't remember where it was -- might have been an interview -- but he envisioned something like a UPC scanner for your Palm Pilot. You'd point it at stuff in the grocery store and get a short summary of the good and bad about it. He said something like, "How would it affect people's buying habits if it said 'sure, these peas are 60 cents cheaper, but they'll give your kids liver cancer'?"
Carousel is a lie!
These are the same researchers that made /. last week for their article on the audiopad. (The link's a mirror, since the site is down.) They must feel pretty good about themselves right now...
while (!sleep){
sheep++;
}
I built a corporate fallout detector, scanned a copy of SCO OpenServer, and the damned detector blew up!
I bet it would beep and buzz at nearly every single product out there. Someone, somewhere, considers just about any product you can name un-ethical, and they are PISSED about it.
Any company that uses meat of any kind would be on PETAs list, all energy companies would be on the list, any company that uses plastics would be on the list (evil petroleum used to make plastics, you know), and the lists go on and on.
-moitz-
Screw 'em...who cares what anyone thinks.
The data is "somewhat inaccurate" *BUT* you want people to use it as the do-all end-all of consumer evaluation? Heh. Fat chance. Who guarantees the database is not full of this guy's issues with the companies that set the sensor off? (New coke was a *good* idea... how could you drop it? Let's see how you like being corporate depleted uranium!). I really dislike this "dumbing down" of the consumer... people trusting the device could be tricked into believing bad things of good companies and vice-versa.
Some product of the wrong company will give a high reading, and then this guy will be in a lot of trouble. He's going to get sued so hard his ancestors will be liable for damages!
Well you may have an achilles heel there, I think according to the BS usnews.com rankings, psychology is a baccalaureate science degree where MIT is not #1.
Just don't use it to scan any products at SCO, MS, HP/Compaq, etc.
don't want to start another color flash in the terror alert network...
What?!?!?! Any idiot can throw together HTML. It's one of the easiest, no worrying about structs, OOP, or anything else difficult.
I cannot take you seriously. Talk to us after you have a couple more years of programming under your belt.
nt means no text
This is an excellent question. But it's not an impossible problem. The question of who to trust when there is no central authority is pervasive and addressed in any number of interesting ways. A few:
The /. moderation system.
Various "seals of approval" from organizations (For example, kosher food is certified by a wide range of organizations. Not all organizations are accepted by all consumers of kosher food.) Another example would be AAA ratings, travel guides, etc.
his sounds like typical "if I don't like it, it must be immoral and capitalistic" leftwing grad school nonsense.
Are you saying that there's no such thing as morality, or that corporations never do anything immoral? Labeling something and arguing for or against it are different things.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
/. ing has occurred! someone please post the original and thanks for the memories . . . . .
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
"MIT student shows off Imminent Slashdoting Detector. Acts and looks kinda like a Geiger counter, but it's a packet shaper with an internal, updateable database of slashdot users, with both Geek and Troll modes. He needs one."
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
I'm going to set this right next to the key to my electric car, my organically grown bean sprouts and my copy of Gore's "Earth in the balance." It should round out my "Liberal with too much time on his/her hands" tool kit nicely.
The article states that the instrument's response is based on a pollution database, http://www.scorecard.org/ and a corporate ethics database http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/research/corporate_ researcher.html
I think it's more of a (witty, IMO) satirical stunt item than anything that the guy thinks would actually be useful.
The article is /.ed but a google search implies that the ethics component is just simple number scale. So what if my ethics are different than the guy coming up with the scale?
For example I like companies that make health care products, like new drugs. They generally help us live longer for less money than surgery or other proceedures. But Christian Scientists have a different view. And people who think we should test products on humans instead of animals might also object some but not all of those products.
What if an entertainment company owns a casino? What if that casino is only 5% of revenues, is that enough to make them "bad"? What if they also make r-rated movies?
Muslims wouldn't consider a company ethical if it had outstanding bonds. But I think issuing debt is often good fiscal management.
And paying foriegn workers seems to be an issue that divides a lot of people ethically.
I guess my point is that abstracting to a simple number yields no useful information. This just sounds like a term engineering project that got too much hype.
This need to be designed using stealth technology. Stores can and do restrict behavior on their premises (it's private property). They won't allow behavior that they believe is not in their best interests. So if you are going to design products for today's brave new world, you are going to have to avoid unwarranted assumptions like free speech, individual rights, etc...
Adbusters is working on a design for an opensource version of this. It appeared in the previous issue & they've gotten some feedback.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I've notticed pretty much everything mentioned here about MIT is from the media lab. Even on campus the media lab isn't exactly taken very seriously. So please, if you are going to make fun of this story, direct it toward the media lab, not MIT in general. Thank you :)
Ths is a STUPID idea as far as summarizing the result as a single-magnitude noise from a "geiger counter." Companies are large and complex--there aren't just "bad ones" and "good ones." there are interrelationships, hidden subsidiaries, and every manner of nonsense. put another way--remember that stuff about the brent spar oil platform that was sunk? it turns out that royal dutch shell was actually right and the (largely german) "environmentalists" didn't understand the science or engineering.
the point is that under the current 'geiger counter', you'd get, say, one loud crack for royal dutch shell. under a more nuanced system, which is what is required, you'd have some way of making your own judgement based on your own values and understandings rather than somebody elses. no, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a hell of a lot better than the current cartoon idea.
(incidentally, would nike get a big "crack?" as well? because nike's labor practices are seen as either laudable or despicable, depending on who you talk to).
Would it measure ego in ESRs, RMSs, SCOs, or Perens?
What's the conversion rate between those units anyway?
How will I know which lies to believe?
--- Ban humanity.
i can't find the link right now, but there was a related handheld device like this, that you could scan barcodes, and it would list political things related...it was a simple design, would do something like a google search for the product and company name, plus other words like child labor, etc
He said no such thing, and you fucking know it, oh master of straw men.
"Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention."
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Maybe I can make one just like this with all my cue cat scanners
A coworker and I were just talking about this sort of concept not a few days ago. I brought up the fact that the founder of Domino's Pizza (as opposed to the Domino's corporation itself, which is not true), has made significant contributions to Operation Rescue, which is pretty hard-line against reproductive and gay rights.
He mentioned "what if there was a tool..." basically exactly like this -- scan a barcode, and find out if purchasing that item could potentially result in money moving to organizations that you don't support.
Even if it's a small concept, I honestly wish such a device went further, even if only as a demonstration piece -- take it into someone's kitchen and see what social issues are represented by the food in their pantry.
As long as the code is open, one could set his or her own parameters (In this case, reals from 0 to 1).
.05. .85 .4.
* Don't care much about animal cruelty: set the parameter to
* Concerned about consumption of foreign oil: set the parameter to
* Somewhat worried about obnoxiously high (CEO salary)/(average employee salary): set the parameter to
Bring in the databases that you trust, and weigh them accordingly. Exclude information provided by folks you don't believe. Whatever. Each person could configure his or her own rating system, in an attempt to model his or her own levels of "anti-goodness".
Don't poo-poo the idea. Embrace it, and it's configurability.
Support a few technologists in Washington.
I don't know, I'd really love to get my hands on one. I've got two geiger counters, one of which is dead and would make a good chasis donor, but my Solder Fu just isn't quite up to that task.
If they think I'm a pain in the ass when the cashier asks if I have one of their "discount cards" just wait till I can run up and down the aisles with one of those squaking away!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Goatse.cx has absolutely NO affiliation with slashdot.
Don't slander the good name of goatse by implying otherwise!
heh didnt know there was a political business category (plonk) got taht blocked too... geez how har is it to just get tech news and not leftist political rambling.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
You can't take a ratio of infinities.
You might mean the CueHack, a program for those free :CueCats we bummed off RadioShack. CueJack was previously reported on Slashdot a coupla years ago.
Those suburban white liberals never want to admit that an Evil American Corporation might actually be helping the workers it 'exploits'.
Got any naked pics of her?
setting a ethics dector off at a lawyers conference.
YHBT
The gave it up while I was there because "it was the right thing to do." Seriously, a university doesn't really need that right now. IBM on the other hand...
Lasers Controlled Games!
Which, interpreted, means: "I want someone else to tell me who to like/dislike."
Q: Why does the web-phone NOT tell you the nearest restraunt to your current location?
A: Because only certain restraunts have PAID the phone company to be available that way.
In other words, if you let someone else compile a database and then use it to make decisions, you give them the power to adjust that database in accordance with THEIR AGENDA. If you know and support the specific group and their ideals, that can be a good thing. But if you don't know how many groups are involved? How did they make their decisions? How was it keyed in? What are all their agendas?
This kind of thing comes under the heading of believing everything you hear/read/download...
It was a typically British birth... I was three at the time... They had a strike in the maternity ward... I came out in sympathy.
I was destined to be an actor. The day I was born I stood up and took a bow. Really. When the doctor slapped me, I thought it was applause!
Bobe Hope - 1903-2003
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. - Geek's corollary to Clarke's law
EOM
Can we assume the gov then has alot more to hide concerning events like 9/11 and the false info passed along to the people of the States? Absolutely. Is there anyone to hold the Bushies accountable? Absonotly! Who would dare?
I went to battle MC Escher, but drew a blank
It is quite fitting that a Slashdotter named "BandwidthHog" would post a story about something that ends up slashdotting their server.
I guess it's not just a clever name after all.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
But... This is America. There are no corporate misdeeds here. It's a way of life.
Just about everything we buy is made by someone who backstabs, double-crosses, drives down wages, busts unions, pillages the environment, and/or is involved in political shenanigans.
Oh wait, I just read the implementation. He just generated a beep based on the MD5 hash of the first 7 digits of the barcode. Clever.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Now they just need to add a database so you can scan someone's ID and have it look up their personal history to give a reading on how unethical or irresponsible they are.
He's not any sort of program, Saark. He's a user. I want him in the games until he dies playing...
A simple program that I used to toy around with as a kid was called "Animal" - it asked you a series of questions to figure out what kind of animal you were thinking of. If it got it wrong you'd add one more question to specifiy the animal you were thinking of... perhaps you could do something simialr to program what a person thoguht of ethics:
...
EthicBuilder> Do you care if animals are hurt?
N
EthicBuilder> Even if they are little bunnies?
N
EthicBuilder> Oh really, here are some pictures. How about now?
OK FINE YOU WIN I CARE ABOUT CUTE LITTLE BUNNIES
EthicBuilder> Great, now how about cows?
EthicBuilder> Database complete, downloaded to scanner
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sure, there's such a thing as morality. Unfortunately, it's absolutely arbitrary, and one person's 'sin' is another's 'good time'.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
*crackle*
This is similar to an idea I have been rolling in my head for a http proxy server that would detect the names of politicians/corporations and dynamicaly write in a link to the necessary query at opensecrets.org. This you can keep track of who is being bought and by whom when reading news on the web.
Unfortunately, most people are simply not informed enough to really care.
So if you're doing something the ethical way, chances are you're having to pay more to produce the same product (after all, it's not like companies choose to be unethical if there's no cost benefit to doing so) which means that, since people generally don't care & don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions, your product is simply seen as a higher-priced alternative, and will likely go out of business. This means that the resources used in the business were basically wasted and could have been used more effectively.
The first step is to get people to think. Get them to realize that something might not be quite right in consumer-land. Once you've got a large enough groundswell of people doing that, then your ethical store ideas will have a better chance of flying. Of course, once you have people thinking, market pressure will force those companies doing unethical things to move to a more ethics controlled system.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
9 Android Devils of Cambridge, eh? In that case, I, Tom Servo, and Crow will be there to make sure the general population gets a layman's translation of all up-to-the-minute technosocial mayhem.
Good thing to remember when someone shoots your dog.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
bool IsCorrupt(void)
{
If(politician)
return(TRUE);
return(FALSE);
}
now, you build the hardware.....
Sparky? where's sparky...?
nah, I refuse to be one of those people who's logic fails when 'it happens to me'. It would be rotten to lose a dog/friend/family member/whatever, but it wouldn't change my opinion on this. Only a good counter argument could do that.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
It's not absolutely arbitrary. We are born with a good deal of our morality encoded in our genes. There are many languages in the world, but scientists have shown that they are not arbitrary. All languages spring from our neural circuitry.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Something like 2800 hits for "china". It's gonna be lound if that's in counts per second. I wonder if it has an overload protector. Contiuous discharge can make the a poorly consturcted meter fall to zero. As the background is never zero, go back from where you came, call the control room and check your battery. If the battery is good, it's time for first responders and you need one for yourself. SCO, it's like prompt critical - over in notime but hurts to be around. China, is more like lingering waste - you know where it is and stay away.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
people can and will believe whatever they want. whether or not you respect their beliefs is a totally different story, however your perspective on their beliefs has no impact on their beliefs at all.
The World's Worst Webcomic!
Of course, I will be modded down as flamebait, but it bears noting that not everyone around here is on the Liberal side of the aisle. Some of us who care about Corporate responsibility want to see these concerns addressed across the board, not just in support of liberal causes.
Or a database of music reviews for when shopping for CDs. Or movie reviews for DVDs. Or recipes for grocery shopping ("what the heck can I do with tamarinds?")
When IBM switched their internal network to all-IP (sometime back in the early 90's), they gave every device on their network a "legitimate" 9's address.
This made more sense at the time given that they were a large ISP themselves. But given the intervening RFC1918, and their selling of the ISP business, I wonder if they've buttoned up their network and NAT'd everything like a good boy?
from the article:
"i came up with the numbers by correlating several online bardcode databases with a pollution database and a corporate ethics database."
and apparently, filters for players of D&D and the bard's tale series of computer RPGs!
ed
Left-wing, hand-wringing hysteria in a can. Plus it saves the users the terrible bother of making up their own minds.
Do they get more beeps for Nabisco enslaving elves and converting them to E.L. Fudge cookies, or extra beeps for being owned by RJ Reynolds/Phillip Morris cancer stick makers who also own the Kraft Macaroni & Cheese company my kids love so much? Having a Morse Code type interface is also pretty stupid.
Doesn't matter I suppose. It's not like I could stop buying Oreos.
Do some homework. The P.T. Nikomas Gemilang factory in Indonesia, which makes a large portion of Nike's shoes, pays its workers well below the poverty line for that country. Workers at that factory have to leave their homes and live alone in low-rent housing because they can hardly afford to feed themselves, let alone take care of a family. In this case Nike's practices are despicable in the context of the local economy.
The first response I hear to a statement like this is: "Should Nike just pull out then, and leave all those people unemployed and starving?" No, of course not. But that doesn't mean i like to see a wealthy american corporation exploiting the poorest of the poor. I will vote with my dollars by not buying their shoes, spread the word, and hope that other moral people can overcome the ocean of advertising in front of them and do the same.
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
How is morality encoded in genes? I'll give you that most 'moral' things (don't steal, kill, rape, etc. others in the clan) lead to more peace within a group, but these cannot be said to be inherited.
Languages are based on concepts. The concepts may be common, but all languages are not. The words, syntax, etc. are all fairly random. Of course, languages grow more complex over time, and some are derived from others, but this is a matter of culture, not chromosomes.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I've always found the phrase 'respect their beliefs' to be interesting. Most folks interpret this as 'accept the belief', at least if you are talking about that person's morals.
:)
I reject this concept, but do believe in respecting others' _rights_ to have different beliefs. I may feel that your faith (for example) is bunk, but I don't think you are bad/wrong/necessarily foolish to have it.
I lost a long time girlfriend over this... her particular branch of religion didn't accept marriages w/non believers, so I was out. Most of my friends said 'Man, [her belief] is wrong, tell her so and you'll get her back'.
Now, I believe that she is incorrect. But I have no particularly good evidence for a better view, so I could not say that. I find it funny how most religious folks don't object to attacking a given faith, so long as it is not their own.
Some time later I did tell her how I felt, and that I was sorry to lose her over what is to me a mythology. But I was proud of her for standing by her beliefs. sigh
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
well, if you explore the ethicalconsumer web-site, you find it to be a rebel-w/o-a-cause||clue, boycott american everything website. oh, and they want your money. sounds like a terrorist front organization to me. damn luddites!
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that someone went to the trouble of building the box, inserting a CPU, either wireless access or some kind of permanent storage device, and all those lovely decals, BUT the only output from the machine is some clicking.
Something is not right here. If you pooled and processed all those databases you should give much more detailed and useful output. How hard would it be (at least compared to how hard the project already was) to put a text display on it?
The thing is either a monument to wasted time or a hoax, leaning toward the lattter.
my best friend's a catholic and being an atheist, I don't have a lot of respect for her religion, but if someone were to mess with her about it, I'd be right there to back her up. I have no respect the actual content of what she believes in, but I whole-heartedly respect her beliefs, simply because they are hers.
The World's Worst Webcomic!
This concept is being pushed for development by Adbusters and the Culture Jammers Network as well. If you're interested in their projects check this link out: http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/opensource/gree nscan/
Well said my man (?), I'd buy you a beer if I could!
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Forget the software. Copy the CueCat LED style barcode scanner to be cheap. Use
Red/Yellow/Green lights, and a small black and white screen to read why the product deserves the light it got. 8MB of ram and 4mb of internal flash for the OS. Use whatever processor is cheapest. Compact flash slot for the database and expansion (more later).
Build it, and they will come. When geeks have this device in their hands, the software won't be far behind. A device like this will probably be useful for a lot of unrelated things, which could at least help with the price.
So what about the software? I would use a stripped down linux system for the OS, and a small C program for the barcode handling. Really - don't worry about the software. Yours will suck, the internet communities will be great. Just make sure the hardware works. As long as you can easily flash update the software and OS with a CF card, you are set. The device can communicate with a host PC with the CF card.
Most work deciding what you like and dislike about products and companies will be done on your PC using the internet, and the device will just read those preferences off the CF along with a database of barcodes related to things you buy. CF cards can hold a lot, so this is a must for expandability.
The ultimate: pop a bluetooth card in the CF slot to connect to your cell phone and have the entire database, up to date, right at your fingertips. Not everyone would want this, so it needs to be an option and not the default.
Now some will say that this product will have to be made with cheap labor. You could assemble it in the USA, but parts will likely go through the hands of people getting low wages before it is made. So what? You will be releasing C02 when you drive to the store too. Nothing is perfect, but this device will bring MUCH more good than the harm it takes to make it.
> Of course the data produced by this approach is > subjective and inaccurate at times, but that's > part of why I built it: It's difficult for
> consumers trace corporate actions through the
> maze of corporate ownership, and find who is
> really responsible.
I fail to see the logic here. Does giving consumers an easy way to read subjective and inaccurate data truly help them?
I think it will be interesting when these thing are integrated into systems like Gibson's vr glasses in Virtual Light. Walk around walmart and see the REAL facts on a product as you look at it. Or personal data and info about people you meet. But I really like the idea of a preference based system. ie. "When I'm shopping i'd like to use the Eco Effect plugin, while dirving around twon however, I'd like the Driving Record indicator showing the number of tickets, DUI's and accedients of the car in for ont of me. "
Of course you can! Just renormalize here and... *hmm* Wait, these look like the laws of physics!
Culture is a genetic phenomenon. The drive to be with others of your kind is genetic. It has to be because otherwise, critters wouldn't get together and extra-genetic culture would never develop. Some culture is not genetic, some is.
Many kinds of behaviors, even complex behaviors, have their roots in genetics. Environment then puts its own speial twist on the genes, and what you have is neither entirely one or the other.
Cooperation certainly can be genetic, look at hive insects. If a simple creature like an ant or a bee can be programmed for cooperation, why not a man? Wolves generally do not fight each other to the death, is it wolf culture or wolf genetics that prohibits killing?
Many group behaviors can be genetic, too. A simple example: if I do something that helps, say, three close relatives pass their genes on to the next generation, I have in effect passed my genes on, whether I mate or not. This is a well understood part of evolutionary theory.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I think you're off base on several counts here....
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
"Only nutcases care about stuff like that. It's all relative anyway, why bother figuring out what's right and wrong? I'll just do what I please. If you can force me to care about your concerns, I will, grudgingly. While you are watching. And I will do everything I can to gain power, power from having to care what you think. Because, somehow, through some magical process, everyone being as completely selfish as possible will lead to the highest good for everyone"
Let's be honest, that's really the unstated premise of this line of reasoning, isn't it?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Pain, both emotional and physical, are not relative. The causes of pain may vary with a person's belief, but some things would cause any concious human being emotional pain.
I base this mostly from being around children of a variety of ages. Observing children from a very young age is an interesting way to get a little first hand experience of what is cultural and what is innate. It's not perfect, but have one of them, and you learn.
So given that there are some acts that always cause others pain, and that these acts might have no benefit to others, why would they not be immoral?
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
Did anyone notice this last week at the posting of the story on AudioPad?
It's the same guy!
Great, give me nothing to argue against, and don't even bother telling me where I'm off base so I can come up with more evidence.
Fortunately, I know how to argue with people like you. (fingers in ears) AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AM NOT! AMNOTAMNOTAMNOT!
My sig was never more appropriate. Where's my five pounds?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
You're right, I didn't give any counter arguments. Frankly, you seem to have fundamental misconceptions about several of the things you spoke of.
:)
Unfortunately, when 2 people have different concepts of logic, a debate is worthless. So, rather than be insulting or really anal (granted, this is the Slashdot Way (tm)), I just let it go. As I am now.
kind of. If I'd totally let it go I wouldn't be writing this
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Not to be rude, but what's the big deal? I mean, if some high school kid near me came up with and implemented this with a cuecat or similiar, I'd be a little impressed, despite the system's obvious drawbacks/flaws.
Someone from MIT though? Jeez, c'mon...
Hope he just whipped something together one bored afternoon, although if I were going to MIT, I'd wonder how one could get bored there...
Nice try, it almost came off as civil. Except we don't have any fundamental different concepts of logic, we have different sets of facts upon which we are basing our arguments. You are disagreeing with me without stating your position.
I can only assume that you actually have nothing but your own biases and unsupported beliefs to bring to the table, so I too am letting it go rather than letting myself be trolled any further.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Was that a bottle of Diet Coke I saw? Don't take away my reason for living!! Har har :)
I'd like to see a device such as this silly 'geiger counter' concept piece implemented as a GPS-aware PDA application. When you're near (or worse, inside) a McDonald's it'll present for the curious a scorecard itemizing a FACTUAL representation of the enormous environmental impact caused by this organization and other ugly things pertaining to their business practice in general and specific to this business location. Just for fun, try and assess the immense annual cost and death toll of clogged arteries, heart attacks and other ailments attributable to the 'food' products sold by this corporation. Then for good show, present their PR spinsters' "nice" side of the corporation with the tax-deductible donations and whatever else the ghouls claim they're doing which in any way is beneficial to anybody. Decide for yourself if one outweighs the other, or in anyway are related.
Most corporations have an 'evil' karma score, but with such a database you could elect to find the 'least evil' corporation. It's probably the closest thing to a clear conscience you can get as a consumer! Of course these devices and applications are obscure and have neglible impact. .. It's mostly a matter of personal choice.
I'm pretty cool with the naysayers and repugnant pro-business types panning the idea of 'karma scorecard' databases - it appears that they'd rather have you form your opinion based on the clear blur skies painted by corporate PR than let you have an informed opinion based on facts obtained from such a database contributed by individuals.
Yeah, there's nearly always an agenda. If you're concerned about your health, worker's rights or the environment, would you trust a glossy flyer from McDonald's? Or a fact sheet compiled by other concerned individuals and organizations citing the specific factual data on the issue without a PR gloss blurring the case?
Ok, enjoy those assumptions :)
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.