I guess extend your argument to see if it still makes sense.
If smashing shop windows hurts the economy, it hurts the economy whether it's legal or illegal.
That's easy to see
I think the real issue is the concept of intellectual property. Take the extreme view. Say we had no IP laws, no copyrights, no patents, etc. GPL wouldn't be enforceable. Also, business models would drop to the lowest common denominator which would be, don't waste money trying to innovate, just try and find someone elses ideas or works and exploit them (even with laws, business tries to hit this lowest common denominator
).
In the end, I think it really boils down to ideology. Do you think there is such a thing as IP and should it be enforced and protected.
So If a list of people (say abortion doctors for a real case) was posted, and one by one the people on this list were knocked off, you would not have a problem with the list?
I have an idealogical issue with the RIAA, the BSA, and heavy handed tactics. Do you know what I do? I avoid their products. It's legal and would work if everyone did it.
Instead, it seems people do like to watch movies and listen to songs and they just don't want to pay for it, plain and simple.
I'll argue that rebooting on a scheduled time frame (with admins present) is very important. I cannot tell you how many times we've had a power outage only to find that critical systems have not come back online and a major panic ensues.
Why? Because these machines are so reliable they have uptimes for 200+ days. People install "beta" systems that become mission critical and never think about setting up the code to autostart in the rc files. Then then we learn the lesson during panic time that starting up the system has never been truly scripted. IE, you need to set environmental variables, start from a specific directory, etc...
When I am put in charge of any system. I immediatly create a reboot schedule to make sure I am learning these issues on my terms. Not during panic time
I am a python bigot but one thing Perl taught me was how to quickly take advantage of regular expressions (looking at other peoples code).
Now I use Pythons re() module which takes a little getting used to. While I'm at it, for those of you that write complex or deep regular expressions where re() craps out, there is a much more stable legacy module called pre() that seems to be undocumented. It works exactly like re(). The only difference, it trades speed for stability.
jesus dude, think about what you are saying. You support police action over people having retarded views? I support police action if people break laws. Being anti-american is not illegal. I take hope in my faith that the FBI had real cause. That is a cause other than what you've stated.
I know I will get crucified and I am by no means an expert but I can't see how "One click", which in my view is completely an absurd patent can be held on the same level as the RSA public/private key patent which seems to hold some validity (at least at a gut feeling level)
I did a little googling on Bert Young and two words I don't see in any of his ventures are "profitable business". Hiring that guy seems to be synonymous with writing a suicide note.
I will miss the entertainment though, sniff sniff.
>How does it know if an email it happens to get back from me is a challenge/response email?
It doesn't have to. The idea is, if I e-mail you, you are automatically in my system's whitelist. Anything coming from you is now accepted because I e-mailed you.
Now if you have an authentication system, your automatic authentication letter will make it into my in box as long as it comes from you.
As far as people being lazy, I guess that is a function of supply and demand. If you are in demand, people will do what they need to,to get in touch with you. If you are looking for leads though and these leads are fickle, this type of system is not for you. You'll probably have to just deal with the spam
I am not recommending mailblocks, I belive there is a sourceforge project called TMDA which does the same thing. Having said that, my experience comes from using mailblocks:
-cr deadlock: This does not exist because when you e-mail someone in a challenge and response system, it automatically assumes they are friendly. So if they have a challenge and response system, it will make it into your inbox, because you e-mailed them first
-automated systems He is correct here. Personally I hate when friends submit my e-mail to third parties without my consent so I do not mind missing these e-mails. I have caught a few while searching my pending folder, and inform my friends I rather have them e-mail me directly.
-interpretation challenge I believe he is wrong here because of a fundamental issue. When dealing with spam filters, the onus of working out refinements is left to the spamee, to make sure they filter out all spam. If a spammer adds a new technique, they get around the filter. With challenge systems, you have a few methods waiting as backup. When a spammer finally figures out how to read your words through AI, you simply change the challenge system and they are back to square 1 in trying to figure out how to defeat. As long as you have a few methods waiting in the wings, the spammers can easily be defeated, and have huge amounts of work to do. if you doubt this, write an AI system to defeat hotmails gifs. Now what if the next day instead of showing a word, they show you a picture of 3 fire trucks and 2 police cars and ask you how many police cars are in the picture, etc...
The solution is out. It's called authentication. It is used in a source forge project called Tagged Message Delivery Agent, and by a for profit company called mailblocks.com. It's simple, it works
I used to get over 400+ spams every 2 weeks in my hotmail account. This has dropped to 70 a week very recently. I wonder if that drop has a direct correlation to Alan stopping his spam . Amazing if so. One person responsible for over %80 of my spam.
>that you are blind to the fact that the >proprietary software model DWARFS the open >source one in sheer profit potential.
It just occurred to me what generation you are from. Your beliefs are reflected by the RIAA's failing business model. If adapting means short term losses then it must be bad. Here is a word you probably don't understand, "Commodity".
I guess you miss the Clinton days when a good business plan meant including the prefix e-. Boy that must be good, look at all the money that flowed around "e-". Hmmm, where did it all go?
If consistent easy to obtain large quantities of money are important to you, I recommend you stick by the old tried and true sex or drug businesses. No freeloader hippy is going to be able to give that away for free.
If anyone is the liberal, it's you. Some of us are die hard darwinian capitalists . We accept the market for what it is and move on to make money in ways that makes sense.
You want middle class corporate welfare. In a capitalist society welfare is bad. Remember, reward those that compete smartly. Those who don't, need to die off or re-tool. Your solution to the problem hurts the country (you commie[had to be said]).
Your analogy of the automobile industry is awesome, because back in the day, the automobile industry acted as sco is acting now. Trying to stop henry ford from improving (read: take it to where it was going anyway) upon the system.
>Preposterous! The closed source model of software development has contributed billions.....
So did the horse and buggy (good thing we stopped cheap automobiles from replacing them)...
>it is about destroying high paying jobs and moving them overseas.
Yes, exactly, we should make computers with printers illegal too, since it destroyed the textile pattern industry
>After all, it means cheap cars for everyone!
God forbid we have cheap goods. Lets prop up non-existant markets, hmmm, how counter-capitalist. There are plenty of socialist countries in Europe. They do one better than protect industries. They just pay people to do nothing.
Here is an idea. Why don't we follow market trends, forcast what is becomming a commodity and be proactive... Nah, that's too hard, protectionism is so much easier.
So what risk exactly do you inherit for using open source code?
Can it be copyright? Shouldn't only those people posting the code to the public be held accountable? Also, if someone is violating a copyright, are they not required to tell the violaters to stop before they can take legal action?
If there is an issue with a patent I still don't understand how end users of the open source code can be held liable. Wouldn't that be similar to Amazon suing every B&N customer for using one click?
Bottom line, I hear lots of talk of indemnity, but I'm not sure what it means.
This is one of SCO's weaker FUD moves. When IBM subpeona's investors that is something that makes sense to the financial types. "SCO subpeona's Linus!!" is a tech geek issue, not an issue the investors can understand or really care about.
Say that is the worst case scenario. What would happen? I believe you would see the beginning of an underground public internet. This revolution can't be stopped. Geeks just get outraged when the MBA's step in to pillage. They always will.
For the life of me, I do not understand why this is a debate still. There is an easy client side authentication scheme that works very well. You send me an e-mail, but you are not in my address book. My client automatically sends a request to you to prove you are human (in nice words). Your e-mail sits in a pending folder until authenticate yourself.
How your authenticate yourself can easily be changed and for once, the onus of work is on the spammers to beat the system.
I am using a paid system that uses this method. I will not mention their name because they are involved in a SW patent suit over their solution and that pisses me off, so no free advertising. Anyway, this service helps me filter my hotmail account which gets over 200 spams a week.
And how does it do? It works. Out of 4,500 e-mails, 4 charity spams got through because the e-mailer took the time to respond to the authentication letter. That's good enough for me.
I've heard arguments about businesses not being able to afford losing contacts because of this method etc. This is where the final improvement needs to take place. You could place a reverse baysian filter on your pending folder to pull out e-mail that has a likely hood of being real. Problem solved.
I am convinced that this solution needs to be implemented in a universal, easy to install, and easy to operate way. The system I use is pretty straight forward, and it works. Anyway, I believe the final solution to spam is out there, but no one is noticing. Very frustrating.
I currently use a paid whitelist authorization company. It is awesome. Out of 4000+ spam mails, only 4 got through because the spammer actually to ok the time to authenticate (do good type associations). For the life of me, I cannot understand why everybody has not jumped on e-mail authentication as the final solution.
Slashdot Mirror
I guess extend your argument to see if it still makes sense.
If smashing shop windows hurts the economy, it hurts the economy whether it's legal or illegal. That's easy to see
I think the real issue is the concept of intellectual property. Take the extreme view. Say we had no IP laws, no copyrights, no patents, etc. GPL wouldn't be enforceable. Also, business models would drop to the lowest common denominator which would be, don't waste money trying to innovate, just try and find someone elses ideas or works and exploit them (even with laws, business tries to hit this lowest common denominator ).
In the end, I think it really boils down to ideology. Do you think there is such a thing as IP and should it be enforced and protected.
So If a list of people (say abortion doctors for a real case) was posted, and one by one the people on this list were knocked off, you would not have a problem with the list?
I have an idealogical issue with the RIAA, the BSA, and heavy handed tactics. Do you know what I do? I avoid their products. It's legal and would work if everyone did it.
Instead, it seems people do like to watch movies and listen to songs and they just don't want to pay for it, plain and simple.
I'll argue that rebooting on a scheduled time frame (with admins present) is very important. I cannot tell you how many times we've had a power outage only to find that critical systems have not come back online and a major panic ensues.
Why? Because these machines are so reliable they have uptimes for 200+ days. People install "beta" systems that become mission critical and never think about setting up the code to autostart in the rc files. Then then we learn the lesson during panic time that starting up the system has never been truly scripted. IE, you need to set environmental variables, start from a specific directory, etc...
When I am put in charge of any system. I immediatly create a reboot schedule to make sure I am learning these issues on my terms. Not during panic time
I am a python bigot but one thing Perl taught me was how to quickly take advantage of regular expressions (looking at other peoples code).
Now I use Pythons re() module which takes a little getting used to. While I'm at it, for those of you that write complex or deep regular expressions where re() craps out, there is a much more stable legacy module called pre() that seems to be undocumented. It works exactly like re(). The only difference, it trades speed for stability.
There will be a feedback location called groklaw ;-)
jesus dude, think about what you are saying. You support police action over people having retarded views? I support police action if people break laws. Being anti-american is not illegal. I take hope in my faith that the FBI had real cause. That is a cause other than what you've stated.
I know I will get crucified and I am by no means an expert but I can't see how "One click", which in my view is completely an absurd patent can be held on the same level as the RSA public/private key patent which seems to hold some validity (at least at a gut feeling level)
I did a little googling on Bert Young and two words I don't see in any of his ventures are "profitable business". Hiring that guy seems to be synonymous with writing a suicide note.
I will miss the entertainment though, sniff sniff.
The concept is great. I would subscribe if it worked and I hate microsoft.
If for $X dollars a month, I had access to just about any song I want to listen at work (old and new), I would completely do it.
Given $X is reasonable of course.
>How does it know if an email it happens to get back from me is a challenge/response email?
It doesn't have to. The idea is, if I e-mail you, you are automatically in my system's whitelist. Anything coming from you is now accepted because I e-mailed you.
Now if you have an authentication system, your automatic authentication letter will make it into my in box as long as it comes from you.
As far as people being lazy, I guess that is a function of supply and demand. If you are in demand, people will do what they need to,to get in touch with you. If you are looking for leads though and these leads are fickle, this type of system is not for you. You'll probably have to just deal with the spam
I am not recommending mailblocks, I belive there is a sourceforge project called TMDA which does the same thing. Having said that, my experience comes from using mailblocks:
...
-cr deadlock: This does not exist because when you e-mail someone in a challenge and response system, it automatically assumes they are friendly. So if they have a challenge and response system, it will make it into your inbox, because you e-mailed them first
-automated systems He is correct here. Personally I hate when friends submit my e-mail to third parties without my consent so I do not mind missing these e-mails. I have caught a few while searching my pending folder, and inform my friends I rather have them e-mail me directly.
-interpretation challenge I believe he is wrong here because of a fundamental issue. When dealing with spam filters, the onus of working out refinements is left to the spamee, to make sure they filter out all spam. If a spammer adds a new technique, they get around the filter. With challenge systems, you have a few methods waiting as backup. When a spammer finally figures out how to read your words through AI, you simply change the challenge system and they are back to square 1 in trying to figure out how to defeat. As long as you have a few methods waiting in the wings, the spammers can easily be defeated, and have huge amounts of work to do.
if you doubt this, write an AI system to defeat hotmails gifs. Now what if the next day instead of showing a word, they show you a picture of 3 fire trucks and 2 police cars and ask you how many police cars are in the picture, etc
If this isn't proof-positive that this guy is a few meg short of a gig, I don't know what is.
Now that I'm done laughing, what the hell does that mean exactly?
The solution is out. It's called authentication. It is used in a source forge project called Tagged Message Delivery Agent, and by a for profit company called mailblocks.com. It's simple, it works
I use mailblocks. I get NO spam. It works.
I used to get over 400+ spams every 2 weeks in my hotmail account. This has dropped to 70 a week very recently. I wonder if that drop has a direct correlation to Alan stopping his spam . Amazing if so. One person responsible for over %80 of my spam.
>that you are blind to the fact that the >proprietary software model DWARFS the open >source one in sheer profit potential.
It just occurred to me what generation you are from. Your beliefs are reflected by the RIAA's failing business model. If adapting means short term losses then it must be bad. Here is a word you probably don't understand, "Commodity".
I guess you miss the Clinton days when a good business plan meant including the prefix e-. Boy that must be good, look at all the money that flowed around "e-". Hmmm, where did it all go?
If consistent easy to obtain large quantities of money are important to you, I recommend you stick by the old tried and true sex or drug businesses. No freeloader hippy is going to be able to give that away for free.
#Feeding a troll and I know better.#
If anyone is the liberal, it's you. Some of us are die hard darwinian capitalists . We accept the market for what it is and move on to make money in ways that makes sense.
You want middle class corporate welfare. In a capitalist society welfare is bad. Remember, reward those that compete smartly. Those who don't, need to die off or re-tool. Your solution to the problem hurts the country (you commie[had to be said]).
Your analogy of the automobile industry is awesome, because back in the day, the automobile industry acted as sco is acting now. Trying to stop henry ford from improving (read: take it to where it was going anyway) upon the system.
>Preposterous! The closed source model of software development has contributed billions.....
So did the horse and buggy (good thing we stopped cheap automobiles from replacing them)...
>it is about destroying high paying jobs and moving them overseas.
Yes, exactly, we should make computers with printers illegal too, since it destroyed the textile pattern industry
>After all, it means cheap cars for everyone!
God forbid we have cheap goods. Lets prop up non-existant markets, hmmm, how counter-capitalist. There are plenty of socialist countries in Europe. They do one better than protect industries. They just pay people to do nothing.
Here is an idea. Why don't we follow market trends, forcast what is becomming a commodity and be proactive... Nah, that's too hard, protectionism is so much easier.
So what risk exactly do you inherit for using open source code?
Can it be copyright? Shouldn't only those people posting the code to the public be held accountable? Also, if someone is violating a copyright, are they not required to tell the violaters to stop before they can take legal action?
If there is an issue with a patent I still don't understand how end users of the open source code can be held liable. Wouldn't that be similar to Amazon suing every B&N customer for using one click?
Bottom line, I hear lots of talk of indemnity, but I'm not sure what it means.
This is one of SCO's weaker FUD moves. When IBM subpeona's investors that is something that makes sense to the financial types. "SCO subpeona's Linus!!" is a tech geek issue, not an issue the investors can understand or really care about.
You forgot
Average merkin can choose to ignore facts that are available to them
Average chnaman can choose to ignore facts the government allows them to see.
So that's the difference
Say that is the worst case scenario. What would happen? I believe you would see the beginning of an underground public internet. This revolution can't be stopped. Geeks just get outraged when the MBA's step in to pillage. They always will.
For the life of me, I do not understand why this is a debate still. There is an easy client side authentication scheme that works very well. You send me an e-mail, but you are not in my address book. My client automatically sends a request to you to prove you are human (in nice words). Your e-mail sits in a pending folder until authenticate yourself.
How your authenticate yourself can easily be changed and for once, the onus of work is on the spammers to beat the system.
I am using a paid system that uses this method. I will not mention their name because they are involved in a SW patent suit over their solution and that pisses me off, so no free advertising. Anyway, this service helps me filter my hotmail account which gets over 200 spams a week.
And how does it do? It works. Out of 4,500 e-mails, 4 charity spams got through because the e-mailer took the time to respond to the authentication letter. That's good enough for me.
I've heard arguments about businesses not being able to afford losing contacts because of this method etc. This is where the final improvement needs to take place. You could place a reverse baysian filter on your pending folder to pull out e-mail that has a likely hood of being real. Problem solved.
I am convinced that this solution needs to be implemented in a universal, easy to install, and easy to operate way. The system I use is pretty straight forward, and it works. Anyway, I believe the final solution to spam is out there, but no one is noticing. Very frustrating.
I can't wait to see how they will spin this. "SGI ADMITS PLACING SCO CODE IN LINUX!" maybe time to day trade today.
I currently use a paid whitelist authorization company. It is awesome. Out of 4000+ spam mails, only 4 got through because the spammer actually to ok the time to authenticate (do good type associations). For the life of me, I cannot understand why everybody has not jumped on e-mail authentication as the final solution.