Oh please. This is/doctrine/. Every company in China which employs more than three party members has a party office on site
economist.com says 13% of companies have relationships with the Party. It is not every company. I checked Huawei's background and here is the article that says there is no government involvement - no party in Huawei
I didn't realize that you were weaseling out of facts which stated that a lot of Chinese prisoners were terrorized. Even if you looked at articles that I provided, you only pick one or two statements that goes against me and they were taken out of context.
..Control of the food supplies was a powerful means, and that, threats, beatings, slashings and the killing of the most stubborn, led to a gratifying number who muttered "Taiwan, Taiwan, Taiwan" when asked the key question...
Terrorism did exist in POW camps. It would have been a violation of Geneva Treaty, which USA didn't ratify. They really were kidnapped victims.
That's not what I mean. ROC agents tortured 22,000 prisoners in Prisoner camps. That was a fact. Earlier in the Chinese Civil War, ROC recruited troops by kidnapping many peasants. That's how they expanded armies. It was not easy to have peasants volunteer for armies unless they are roped in and brought to stations in faraway places.
That's not what I mean. ROC agents tortured 22,000 prisoners in Prisoner camps. That was a fact. Earlier in the Chinese Civil War, ROC recruited troops by kidnapping many peasants. That's how they expanded armies. It was not easy to have peasants volunteer for armies unless they are roped in and brought to stations in faraway places.
No I read the Korean War books in USA as I was raised in USA. The Chinese government had been honest in the Korean War. "Truth" was how the Chinese armies forced US armies to stalemate. It estimated the number of U.N. soldiers accurately while the U.S. soldiers wildly estimated the number of Communist soldiers and others. In battles, generals rely on honest reports to win and soldiers were not allowed to fake out numbers. Surprisely, the U.S. generals made mistakes as they tallied a huge number of Chinese deads falsely reported by U.S. soldiers. What's up with bragging about killing a number of enemies when there were few dead bodies?
There weren't Chinese newspapers back in Korea War. Just lots of peasants who can't read or write. Today, we do have newspapers in China. In Taiwan, opinion is divided. Many mainlanders who fled China still support China reunification. Younger people are sort of forgetful. I still have some old Taiwanese friends who support China reunification. Today, Western Journalism is a lot worse due to jingoism and prejudice. At least I have dead-wood books that painted the stories of Korean War.
Maybe you shouldn't trust some US sources as they are very biased and white-washed. It takes research to get facts. My research includes Korean War books and personal stories told by my father and mother.
Shouldn't trust government-issued history textbooks? I didn't. I didn't trust U.S. government-issued history textbooks. I had trusted those books before in elementary schools until I picked up library books of what happened to Indians who met Pilgrims. Turned out that generations of them were manipulated and killed. So, what happened to the contributions of Pocohontas? Or what happened to Columbus that I day-dreamed of in a classroom? What happened to giving thanks for turkey? Library books are great for honest readings. That goes for Korean War books.
Yes there were a lot of KMT soldiers in PRC's armies. They switched sides to Communist during the Chinese Civil War as the Nationalist armies were retreating to Taiwan. Once, the Chinese Civil War was over, the Korean War was beginning to unfold. The troops didn't have time to go home, they had to be prepared for a war in Korea one more time.
The political leaders really wanted to invade Taiwan but with the Korean War, they changed their military plan and lost the opportunity to invade Taiwan.
No, it wasn't true that it was a way to get rid off potentially disloyal troops. They happened to be closer to Korea and didn't have time to go home for relaxation. Putting troops in Korea was mainly the decision of political leaders and military leaders. A number of Chinese civilians (perhaps University students as I had seen a photo) joined the troops. The belief from a Taiwanese was just an assumption. The claims of getting rid off disloyal troops were true earlier in the Chinese Civil war, but not in the Korean War, where PRC already consolidated armies. In the Chinese Civil War, both Communists and Nationalists were getting rid off/ laid off disloyal troops (mostly newly acquired prisoners) as part of their joint uneasy peace deal and in some early occasions killed troops perceived to be disloyal. So getting rid off disloyal troops was done already before the Korean War began.
When you have a small army early in a war, the usual way is to take no prisoners as you cannot afford to keep prisoners for too long. When your army get larger, you have two choices - kill prisoners or keep prisoners. It depends on your strategy.
Sure, they do want to coerce POWs partially because of the need for propaganda victory and partially for manpower back in taiwan. There existed terrorism in POW camps, so anything POWs say is not certain. ROC leaders can tolerate having those former communist POWs in the Taiwan as long as they don't rebel or don't participate in high leadership positions or don't reveal their sympathies to Communists.
Are you saying that ROC leaders didn't want to coerce them? Do they lack any skill to convince Communists to go to Taiwan (Communists already successfully convince former enemy soldiers to serve in armies)? Moreover, if they are really suspicious of Communists regardless of whether or not they are truly communists, why did they let them in if they were communists? Manpower? Propaganda? Or the fact that they were former ROC soldiers as my grandfather was the former ROC soldier? Wanting to coerce or not to coerce is not the point (If I were a general, I would definitely try to convince prisoners to serve in my army for bigger battles). There existed terrorism in POW camps and ROC did want to get involved in the Korean War especially if they wanted as many prisoners to go to Taiwan where there were no real families or for hurting the PRC government's feelings.
If you have a family in China and you are a prisoner, would you go to Taiwan or China? Ideology, who cares?
You don't know what the source is? The article cited "MacDonald" the author of a book. That article just put together a number of sources and I am an avid reader of Korean War books.
If the Republic of China leaders were afraid of Communists in Taiwan, then why did they agree to bring 22,000 Chinese Communists to Taiwan (for or against their will)?
That is interesting. It is a complete opposite of what the Korean War book was saying. What about this statement?
Many POWs were forced not to repatriate.
Inside the camps, anti-communist enclosures used brutal methods to coerce the majority for non-repatriation,
"harrowing scenes preceded the official screening, in which violent, systematic terrorism occurred".
"Those who wanted repatriation were either beaten or killed". "As a result, when polled the majority
were too terrified to say anything but 'Taiwan' repeated over and over again". (MacDonald).
From stories told by POWs who got back to PRC, the KMT agents used most brutal methods to ensure non-repatriation,
the details can be found from a book written by a former POW, it is in Chinese and is online. (link to be added)
US did nothing to stop this kind of brutality within the camps, on the contrary , it introduced anti-communists
agents into the camps and encouraged their coercions.
The Operation Big Switch wiki article isn't deep in details. It says they declined repatriation and that's it. It is incomplete. If you read books, you'll know that they were terrorized and were forced to agree to go to Taiwan. Korean War books, which I read, tell the stories about the Chinese prisoners being terrorized. If you don't believe me, you can pick a book in any library.
Pardon my statement, the Chinese prisoners were forced to sign agreements stating that they would go to Taiwan instead of PRC. Remember they were signing the agreements at the time when Taiwanese or American agents were beating them into compliance with what Americans or Taiwanese want to hear.
Nope, I anticipated that anyone would say that my comments come right out of PRC propaganda machine but I'm a real person. I've seen a lot of criticisms of China in western news. I can tell you that for a decade, not a single English Western news article about China is positive. If you need citations, Korean War, is a book I read in a American library. In fact I read a lot of Korean War books (All American books). There is one particular book I like because it gives details about the battle of Chosin Reservoir. If you happen to see the book with the name Chosin Resevoir somewhere, that's the book I would recommend. I only regurgitated what I read. Wikipedia and other Internet stuff aren't deep in details.
Sorry, I was busy at work and got tired at home. I mean no intention of lying. Yes, I'm Chinese and my family history is intertwined with the Chinese Civil War and Korean War.
I couldn't remember the number of prisoners. Sorry, but really the Chinese prisoners had no say in the decision-making processes. It was right for China to insist on the return of prisoners as the United States was not trustable. During the Chinese Civil war, my grandfather was a Republic of China soldier before he was caught by the Communists. Then he became a communist soldier fighting for Communists. A lot of Communist soldiers were former Republic of China soldiers, Japanese-supervised Manchurian Army soldiers, and former Warlord soldiers. My grandfather was lucky to stay behind. My ex-step-grandfather, a Republic of China soldier, was not lucky, he fled to Taiwan, leaving behind his wife.
Again, 22,600 Communist soldiers did not really have a say. They were forced to sign repatriation agreements against their wills. I read the Korean War books, when I was in High School and I read that those Chinese prisoners were terrorized in U.N. prisons. I mean no intention of flamebait. It is the truth.
By the year 2025, China surpasses US in terms of economic output. It will have pebble-bed reactors ready for production. In 2020 - 2030, China should have a space station in orbit. By the year 2050, China should robotically colonize and mine the moon for Helium-3 if fusion power plants prove to be feasible.
Pretty sure Taiwan might have a thing or two to say, also.
Interesting, when the Korean War ended, Americans forced hundreds of thousands Chinese prisoners to go to Taiwan instead of PRC, so that Americans can save their faces. I'm sure that the Chinese Korean War veterans in Taiwan complained about being separated from their wives, parents, and children for 30 to 40 years. American prisoners, on the other hand, were lucky as they returned to their own families immediately.
In addition, the Chinese prisoners received far worse treatments in American prison camps than what American prisoners received in Chinese prison camps.
That's funny, over there in China, professors and scientists are overpaid and overworked (they are eager to work for long time). Years ago, a research department head asked me for help with his resume as he would like to send a resume to an American university. I looked up the salary of a researcher in his field and was dismayed to see that any potential job in here would have a salary much lower than his salary in China. So, I discouraged him from applying for a job in America. But anyway, he found an alternative way to work/research in America temporarily. A temporary research position is better than a permanent research position as there isn't much financial incentive to stay in America.
Please mod this parent down.
Of all books, news, and visits to China, I have never heard of China's space program being military only. The only thing that is military in CASA is when CASA, like NASA and USSR's space programs, picked the best air force pilots for manned missions. It is a normal activity, not a military activity. So, click your heels and salute!
I've spoken to at least a hundred Chinese people and many more in many cities (Beijing, Shanghai, and etcs). Count me in as Chinese. You talked to me too.
I'm aware of the culture and thousands of years of culture is indeed hard to break. It is partly what we are proud of and it is partly not what we like cause it can hold back progress in science and technology and society (we are very superstitious with funerals and numbers).
Taiwan and Hong Kong went ahead with great wealth. Funny things were that there wasn't democracy in Hong Kong (British leaders were not elected by Hong Kong people) and authoritarianism governed while Taiwan grew up economically. It is in their genes and culture that helped them to reach high-level wealth. Indeed, greater degree of freedom exist in both of them today. China will be next to have high income per person.
I agree that public officials should be held accountable for their actions. I'm just glad Wen Jiabao and Hu Jintao are fighting against corruption in government. Life was hard three decades ago. Life is easier today and I hope that life will be easier three decades later. What's wrong with grumbling about one's government? Don't we grumble about our government too?
I've been with the poor, the rich, the super-rich, the middle-class, and the intellectuals in China. They talked about life, other people, and etcs. They hardly say anything about politics. Critics in the United States see China as a country or a single person because it is far from them. The people over there in China did not see it that way, they see low-level details such as having multiple cell phones, schools, your height, or whether the food taste great or bad. Whenever they see the government, they see low-level details such as police, traffic, marriage bureau, schools, road tolls, train stations, airports, city halls, and etcs.
Slashdot Mirror
Oh please. This is /doctrine/. Every company in China which employs more than three party members has a party office on site
economist.com says 13% of companies have relationships with the Party. It is not every company. I checked Huawei's background and here is the article that says there is no government involvement - no party in Huawei
So, here is the proof http://books.google.com/books?id=XMJpnYmKNQsC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=Chinese+prisoners+forced+to+go+to+taiwan+korean+war+Panmunjom&source=bl&ots=MN8Aafvxap&sig=sE1au-AyvOm70Zy-_y8f67I75qE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x1LsTu_wGamKiALNkdXGBA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
..Control of the food supplies was a powerful means, and that, threats, beatings, slashings and the killing of the most stubborn, led to a gratifying number who muttered "Taiwan, Taiwan, Taiwan" when asked the key question...
Terrorism did exist in POW camps. It would have been a violation of Geneva Treaty, which USA didn't ratify. They really were kidnapped victims.
Would this link http://books.google.com/books?id=XMJpnYmKNQsC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=Chinese+prisoners+forced+to+go+to+Taiwan+Korean+War&source=bl&ots=MN8AaeDzdm&sig=dw1mnhtu2YtWaVxpSxvaYE4yu0I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2UvsTrXwOK3TiAKAsuj2Aw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false help to convince you that 22,000 kidnap victims were really kidnapped and beaten blue and black? It is a book. Better than other wikipedia articles. Your logic is different from the logic 50 years ago. It is not fair that you got 2 points while I got 1 point as I have a huge knowledge of Korean War.
That's not what I mean. ROC agents tortured 22,000 prisoners in Prisoner camps. That was a fact. Earlier in the Chinese Civil War, ROC recruited troops by kidnapping many peasants. That's how they expanded armies. It was not easy to have peasants volunteer for armies unless they are roped in and brought to stations in faraway places.
That's not what I mean. ROC agents tortured 22,000 prisoners in Prisoner camps. That was a fact. Earlier in the Chinese Civil War, ROC recruited troops by kidnapping many peasants. That's how they expanded armies. It was not easy to have peasants volunteer for armies unless they are roped in and brought to stations in faraway places.
No I read the Korean War books in USA as I was raised in USA. The Chinese government had been honest in the Korean War. "Truth" was how the Chinese armies forced US armies to stalemate. It estimated the number of U.N. soldiers accurately while the U.S. soldiers wildly estimated the number of Communist soldiers and others. In battles, generals rely on honest reports to win and soldiers were not allowed to fake out numbers. Surprisely, the U.S. generals made mistakes as they tallied a huge number of Chinese deads falsely reported by U.S. soldiers. What's up with bragging about killing a number of enemies when there were few dead bodies?
There weren't Chinese newspapers back in Korea War. Just lots of peasants who can't read or write. Today, we do have newspapers in China. In Taiwan, opinion is divided. Many mainlanders who fled China still support China reunification. Younger people are sort of forgetful. I still have some old Taiwanese friends who support China reunification. Today, Western Journalism is a lot worse due to jingoism and prejudice. At least I have dead-wood books that painted the stories of Korean War.
Maybe you shouldn't trust some US sources as they are very biased and white-washed. It takes research to get facts. My research includes Korean War books and personal stories told by my father and mother.
Shouldn't trust government-issued history textbooks? I didn't. I didn't trust U.S. government-issued history textbooks. I had trusted those books before in elementary schools until I picked up library books of what happened to Indians who met Pilgrims. Turned out that generations of them were manipulated and killed. So, what happened to the contributions of Pocohontas? Or what happened to Columbus that I day-dreamed of in a classroom? What happened to giving thanks for turkey? Library books are great for honest readings. That goes for Korean War books.
Yes there were a lot of KMT soldiers in PRC's armies. They switched sides to Communist during the Chinese Civil War as the Nationalist armies were retreating to Taiwan. Once, the Chinese Civil War was over, the Korean War was beginning to unfold. The troops didn't have time to go home, they had to be prepared for a war in Korea one more time.
The political leaders really wanted to invade Taiwan but with the Korean War, they changed their military plan and lost the opportunity to invade Taiwan.
No, it wasn't true that it was a way to get rid off potentially disloyal troops. They happened to be closer to Korea and didn't have time to go home for relaxation. Putting troops in Korea was mainly the decision of political leaders and military leaders. A number of Chinese civilians (perhaps University students as I had seen a photo) joined the troops. The belief from a Taiwanese was just an assumption. The claims of getting rid off disloyal troops were true earlier in the Chinese Civil war, but not in the Korean War, where PRC already consolidated armies. In the Chinese Civil War, both Communists and Nationalists were getting rid off/ laid off disloyal troops (mostly newly acquired prisoners) as part of their joint uneasy peace deal and in some early occasions killed troops perceived to be disloyal. So getting rid off disloyal troops was done already before the Korean War began.
When you have a small army early in a war, the usual way is to take no prisoners as you cannot afford to keep prisoners for too long. When your army get larger, you have two choices - kill prisoners or keep prisoners. It depends on your strategy.
Sure, they do want to coerce POWs partially because of the need for propaganda victory and partially for manpower back in taiwan. There existed terrorism in POW camps, so anything POWs say is not certain. ROC leaders can tolerate having those former communist POWs in the Taiwan as long as they don't rebel or don't participate in high leadership positions or don't reveal their sympathies to Communists.
Are you saying that ROC leaders didn't want to coerce them? Do they lack any skill to convince Communists to go to Taiwan (Communists already successfully convince former enemy soldiers to serve in armies)? Moreover, if they are really suspicious of Communists regardless of whether or not they are truly communists, why did they let them in if they were communists? Manpower? Propaganda? Or the fact that they were former ROC soldiers as my grandfather was the former ROC soldier? Wanting to coerce or not to coerce is not the point (If I were a general, I would definitely try to convince prisoners to serve in my army for bigger battles). There existed terrorism in POW camps and ROC did want to get involved in the Korean War especially if they wanted as many prisoners to go to Taiwan where there were no real families or for hurting the PRC government's feelings.
If you have a family in China and you are a prisoner, would you go to Taiwan or China? Ideology, who cares?
You don't know what the source is? The article cited "MacDonald" the author of a book. That article just put together a number of sources and I am an avid reader of Korean War books.
If the Republic of China leaders were afraid of Communists in Taiwan, then why did they agree to bring 22,000 Chinese Communists to Taiwan (for or against their will)?
Many POWs were forced not to repatriate.
Inside the camps, anti-communist enclosures used brutal methods to coerce the majority for non-repatriation, "harrowing scenes preceded the official screening, in which violent, systematic terrorism occurred". "Those who wanted repatriation were either beaten or killed". "As a result, when polled the majority were too terrified to say anything but 'Taiwan' repeated over and over again". (MacDonald).
From stories told by POWs who got back to PRC, the KMT agents used most brutal methods to ensure non-repatriation, the details can be found from a book written by a former POW, it is in Chinese and is online. (link to be added)
US did nothing to stop this kind of brutality within the camps, on the contrary , it introduced anti-communists agents into the camps and encouraged their coercions.
http://www.centurychina.com/history/faq6.shtml This online statement above is real as the book I read is older and is written by an American author.
Sorry, if I'm late in replying to one of your comments. Please take a look at my comment history.
Please take a look at my comment history.
The Operation Big Switch wiki article isn't deep in details. It says they declined repatriation and that's it. It is incomplete. If you read books, you'll know that they were terrorized and were forced to agree to go to Taiwan. Korean War books, which I read, tell the stories about the Chinese prisoners being terrorized. If you don't believe me, you can pick a book in any library.
Pardon my statement, the Chinese prisoners were forced to sign agreements stating that they would go to Taiwan instead of PRC. Remember they were signing the agreements at the time when Taiwanese or American agents were beating them into compliance with what Americans or Taiwanese want to hear.
Nope, I anticipated that anyone would say that my comments come right out of PRC propaganda machine but I'm a real person. I've seen a lot of criticisms of China in western news. I can tell you that for a decade, not a single English Western news article about China is positive. If you need citations, Korean War, is a book I read in a American library. In fact I read a lot of Korean War books (All American books). There is one particular book I like because it gives details about the battle of Chosin Reservoir. If you happen to see the book with the name Chosin Resevoir somewhere, that's the book I would recommend. I only regurgitated what I read. Wikipedia and other Internet stuff aren't deep in details.
Sorry, I was busy at work and got tired at home. I mean no intention of lying. Yes, I'm Chinese and my family history is intertwined with the Chinese Civil War and Korean War.
I couldn't remember the number of prisoners. Sorry, but really the Chinese prisoners had no say in the decision-making processes. It was right for China to insist on the return of prisoners as the United States was not trustable. During the Chinese Civil war, my grandfather was a Republic of China soldier before he was caught by the Communists. Then he became a communist soldier fighting for Communists. A lot of Communist soldiers were former Republic of China soldiers, Japanese-supervised Manchurian Army soldiers, and former Warlord soldiers. My grandfather was lucky to stay behind. My ex-step-grandfather, a Republic of China soldier, was not lucky, he fled to Taiwan, leaving behind his wife.
Again, 22,600 Communist soldiers did not really have a say. They were forced to sign repatriation agreements against their wills. I read the Korean War books, when I was in High School and I read that those Chinese prisoners were terrorized in U.N. prisons. I mean no intention of flamebait. It is the truth.
By the year 2025, China surpasses US in terms of economic output. It will have pebble-bed reactors ready for production. In 2020 - 2030, China should have a space station in orbit. By the year 2050, China should robotically colonize and mine the moon for Helium-3 if fusion power plants prove to be feasible.
This is as realistic as possible.
Pretty sure Taiwan might have a thing or two to say, also.
Interesting, when the Korean War ended, Americans forced hundreds of thousands Chinese prisoners to go to Taiwan instead of PRC, so that Americans can save their faces. I'm sure that the Chinese Korean War veterans in Taiwan complained about being separated from their wives, parents, and children for 30 to 40 years. American prisoners, on the other hand, were lucky as they returned to their own families immediately.
In addition, the Chinese prisoners received far worse treatments in American prison camps than what American prisoners received in Chinese prison camps.
I prefer wooden buildings over concrete buildings because concrete buildings produce echoes too many times. try it in a concrete building.
That's funny, over there in China, professors and scientists are overpaid and overworked (they are eager to work for long time). Years ago, a research department head asked me for help with his resume as he would like to send a resume to an American university. I looked up the salary of a researcher in his field and was dismayed to see that any potential job in here would have a salary much lower than his salary in China. So, I discouraged him from applying for a job in America. But anyway, he found an alternative way to work/research in America temporarily. A temporary research position is better than a permanent research position as there isn't much financial incentive to stay in America.
Please mod this parent down. Of all books, news, and visits to China, I have never heard of China's space program being military only. The only thing that is military in CASA is when CASA, like NASA and USSR's space programs, picked the best air force pilots for manned missions. It is a normal activity, not a military activity. So, click your heels and salute!
I've spoken to at least a hundred Chinese people and many more in many cities (Beijing, Shanghai, and etcs). Count me in as Chinese. You talked to me too.
I'm aware of the culture and thousands of years of culture is indeed hard to break. It is partly what we are proud of and it is partly not what we like cause it can hold back progress in science and technology and society (we are very superstitious with funerals and numbers).
Taiwan and Hong Kong went ahead with great wealth. Funny things were that there wasn't democracy in Hong Kong (British leaders were not elected by Hong Kong people) and authoritarianism governed while Taiwan grew up economically. It is in their genes and culture that helped them to reach high-level wealth. Indeed, greater degree of freedom exist in both of them today. China will be next to have high income per person.
I agree that public officials should be held accountable for their actions. I'm just glad Wen Jiabao and Hu Jintao are fighting against corruption in government. Life was hard three decades ago. Life is easier today and I hope that life will be easier three decades later. What's wrong with grumbling about one's government? Don't we grumble about our government too?
Not to mention being the largest dictatorship in the world with a population who for some reason seems to think it is a good thing...
What dictatorship?
I've been with the poor, the rich, the super-rich, the middle-class, and the intellectuals in China. They talked about life, other people, and etcs. They hardly say anything about politics. Critics in the United States see China as a country or a single person because it is far from them. The people over there in China did not see it that way, they see low-level details such as having multiple cell phones, schools, your height, or whether the food taste great or bad. Whenever they see the government, they see low-level details such as police, traffic, marriage bureau, schools, road tolls, train stations, airports, city halls, and etcs.
Most Chinese people don't see what you see.