Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions by Brian Christian, Tom Griffiths
Most useful amazon review (by Wolfcrow):
There are predictably a number of readers who will look at this title and shy away, thinking that a book with "algorithms" in its title must be just for techies and computer scientists. There will be others who pride themselves on being technologically astute who think they know all about algorithms already. Both groups are wrong. Both will be astounded and profoundly affected by the human applications Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths make in this book for all of us. I should qualify that; it is a book for anyone who has ever had difficulty in such tasks as "when to stop looking" (for an apartment, for instance); how to schedule a busy family's priorities; how to clean out the garage; how to stop thinking about a problem; how to network. In fact, all the day-to-day problems that follow us from waking up to going to bed are addressed here by the human use of algorithms. I confess that I was grateful for the definition of "algorithms" early in the book; it is one of those words that everyone uses but many of us would have been hard put to explain. Notice I wrote "would have been" because this book explains it all so clearly that neophytes can understand it and technological people will not feel they are being patronized. And all of us who really use this book (not just read, but use) will find it has made our lives more productive, better organized, and essentially, much happier. Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths are geniuses at combining cutting edge philosophy with information we can use to make our lives richer.
It didn't make me laugh, but I have to admit that I find it a clever way to comment on a political issue: not abortion itself, but rather the way anti-abortion proponents try to exert control on abortion clinics by forcing them to talk-down to their patients as if they were ignorant children.
My reading of the article: Dedicating yourself to a carefully chosen purpose is cool, but the author is ranting against people who have become obsessed with productivity for it's own sake, as a form of idolatry.
My takeaway: Stop being so damn busy all the time and spend more time reflecting on what's actually important.
Thanks for the link to the Latchkey standeards. I was initially apalled to read that the "minimum age of home alone child" in the state if Illinois is 14 (the highest on the chart). Then I read the actual Illinois statute, "[A neglected child is] any minor under the age of 14 years whose parent or other person responsible for the minor's welfare leaves the minor without supervision for an unreasonable period of time without regard for the mental or physical health, safety, or welfare of that minor;"
In other words, it's a guidline for law enforcement / Child Protective Services.
I expect that most places have reasonable laws that do actually trust parents. Some places, like Illinois, try to have laws that will help them addressing true neglect.
The article is just about some police officers who called CPS because they happen to be dicks. I am sure this surprises nobody. Not news.
There was post about this game on slashdot many years back. It's like candyland, but with C like expressions. It's not going to teach a kid how to program, but it will help lay the foundation.
Words from an "old dog" programmer I work with: --- One day an old German Shepherd starts chasing rabbits and before long, discovers that he's lost. Wandering about, he notices a panther heading rapidly in his direction with the intention of having lunch.
The old German Shepherd thinks,
"Oh oh! I'm in deep s*** now!"
Noticing some bones on the ground close by, he immediately settles down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching cat. Just as the panther is about to leap, the old German Shepherd exclaims loudly, "Boy, that was one delicious panther!
I wonder, if there are any more around here?"
Hearing this, the young panther halts his attack in mid-strike, a look of terror comes over him and he slinks away into the trees. "Whew!," says the panther,
"That was close! That old German Shepherd nearly had me!"
Meanwhile, a squirrel who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree, figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the panther. So, off he goes.
The squirrel soon catches up with the panther, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the panther
The young panther is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here, squirrel, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving canine!"
Now, the old German Shepherd sees the panther coming with the squirrel on his back and thinks, "What am I going to do now?," but instead of running, the dog sits down with his back to his attackers, pretending he hasn't seen them yet, and just when they get close enough to hear, the old German Shepherd says...
"Where's that squirrel? I sent him off an hour ago to bring me another panther!"
Moral of this story...
Don't mess with the old dogs...
Age and skill will always overcome youth and treachery!
BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
I have a friend who works at SoCal Edison. He explained that this risk has been a known one for quite some time. SoCal is working on refitting the meters so that they can charge different amounts for energy during different times of the day. If people charge cars at 10PM it won't be a problem, but it will be if they do it at 5pm when they get home from work, they'll be adding to the peak usage that comes from day time air conditioner use. Right now, people who purchase electric cars already have the option to switch their meter over to the modern one so that they can pay the reduced rate for energy usage during off-peak times.
Man, I haven't posted in years... but there's a great book by this title written by two mathematicians. They talk about the topology of knots as well as the history of ties. Which actors/celebrities wore what tie knots, etc.
I can't seem to locate my copy at the moment, but from what I recall, there are an infinite number of potential knots, but they are classified by the number of sequences in them. And within a certain number of steps, (I think 5) there are 85 possible ways to tie a tie. Then they rank them by symmetry and a copule other criteria.
I recommend it to anybody who is interested in this subject. It's out of print, but it's still possible to find a copy for sale online.
So yeah, i'm a slashdotter taking a break from the tech scene for a while (was working on wall street, currently backpacking around India). Of course I have nothing better to do on a Friday night:) so why the heck not engage in a little revenge of the nerds?
First time I called they hung up.
Second time, they asked my name. I gave it and said i referred by tyrone king. They said they don't have anything available. I was like, "really, isn't that what you guys do?" She asked what I do and I explained my situation. "Sorry, we don't have anything available." But she took down my temporary e-mail address: avi.job[at]umich.edu.
Very curious to see if I'll ever hear back from them. Course I haven't the slightest interest in DC while backpacking around India. This is the place where all the *really* interesting stuff is happening.
Yeah, this is one step closer to the brain implant, then the matrix. You see, it all started with the swiss army knife. Or maybe even the wheel or the club or the thrown rock. This is why technology is evil and ung[G?]odly.
Kidding of course. But this theme is very common in philosophy (not just in Sci-Fi!):
1. Who am I? 2. Am I my actions? No. Maybe. I don't know. 3. Am I my thoughts? Yes! 4. So my thoughts are more important than the physical world? Yes! 5. So I could theoretically eliminate the physical world and still be me? Probably. 6. What if I also eliminate some of my less relevant thoughts? 7. And what if my mental processes as observed by others could be duplicated perfectly by a computer program? 8. And what if they are duplicated perfectly not only as observed by others, but also in fact? 9. So who the hell am I?
My answer: I don't exist; I'm a figment of my own imagination. Consciousness is an illusionary contruct which has facilitated the perpetuation of human species. A series of complex, intricate, and interconnected cell membranes which serve as a duplicating medium for strands of DNA do not a soul comprise. But that doesn't stop us from rebelling against the truth with song, dance, or in my case, a couple of beers.
By Paul Festa Special to ZDNet News January 14, 2003, 4:00 AM PT
AOL Time Warner's Mozilla project is facing new questions about quality after Apple Computer's release of a browser based on rival open-source code. Apple last week unveiled its own browser, called Safari. The company said it was based on the KHTML rendering engine that is the core of Konqueror, an open-source file manager and Web browser for the K Desktop Environment (KDE).
In an e-mail congratulating KHTML engineers on their work and its selection by Apple, Safari's engineering manager touted the technology over Mozilla and its rendering engine, Gecko.
"When we were evaluating technologies over a year ago, KHTML and KJS stood out," Safari Engineering Manager Don Melton wrote. (KJS is KDE's JavaScript interpreter.) "Not only were they the basis of an excellent, modern and standards-compliant Web browser, they were also less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of development within that code made it a better choice for us than other open-source projects."
Despite its diplomatic tone and anonymous reference, Mozilla veterans read between the lines of Melton's message.
In a Web log, Mozilla founder and former evangelist Jamie Zawinski said Apple is bad-mouthing Mozilla.
"Translated through a de-weaselizer, (Melton's e-mail) says: 'Even though some of us used to work on Mozilla, we have to admit that the Mozilla code is a gigantic, bloated mess, not to mention slow, and with an internal API so flamboyantly baroque that frankly we can't even comprehend where to begin,'" Zawinski wrote.
One Mozilla staff member called KHTML selection an understandable if not foregone conclusion, given Mozilla's technical problems.
"I guess I'm supposed to be mortally offended--or at least embarrassed--that they went with KHTML instead of our Gecko engine, but I'm having trouble working up the indignation," wrote Mike Shaver in a Web log posting. "We've all known forever that Gecko missed its 'small-and-lean' target by an area code, and we've been slogging back towards the goal, dragging our profilers and benchmarks behind us, for years."
Shaver, who left Netscape three years ago but retained his position on the small Mozilla staff, said that in Apple's shoes he might have made a similar decision.
"If I had to write a new browser, and I was going to have to touch the layout code in a serious way, I would think about Mozilla alternatives," Shaver wrote. "I really, really hope that Mozilla will learn from Safari/KHTML, because they've done a lot of great work in about a tenth of the code."
Mitchell Baker, who goes by the title of chief lizard wrangler at Mozilla, defended the Mozilla project against technical gripes in a prepared statement. "Gecko offers crossplatform capabilities, leading standards support as well as a full feature set and tested compatibility on the Web," she said.
"Gecko's speedy crossplatform nature is important to maintaining a Web to which all users have access regardless of their platform," she added. "Gecko is already embedded and distributed in real-world applications from Red Hat, IBM, OEone, Netscape and CompuServe, and we look forward to the upcoming releases of Gecko-based products that are currently in development."
Slow progress Mozilla has faced criticism before over the pace of its development efforts, which were originally conceived as the Web community's best chance to challenge the dominance of Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Mozilla 1.0 was released last year, after long delays that effectively allowed Microsoft to cement its lead.
AOL Time Warner's Netscape division issued Netscape 6--its first browser based on the Mozilla code--to poor reviews, but a subsequent update answered many of the critics. Netscape Communications is Mozilla's corporate sponsor.
Mozilla and Netscape have both seen small gains in market share, appearing in the market alongside an independent entry from Norway's Opera Software. None has significantly challenged Microsoft's lead, however, which remains well above 90 percent, according to a recent survey.
Apple's browser is unlikely to alter the market-share picture, but is still a significant entry into the field. Although it caters to a small group of users, it could help Apple wean itself from its reliance on Microsoft's IE and create new software services. Apple's vote also carries significant weight in software circles as a result of its development of several highly-regarded applications for its Macintosh personal computers, particularly its iTunes and iPhoto multimedia tools.
Melton's e-mail detailed the Safari team's deep roots in the Mozilla project. Melton helped launch Mozilla in 1998. Safari engineer David Hyatt launched Chimera, a version of Mozilla for Mac OS X.
Asked to elaborate on its rejection of Mozilla, Apple went out of its way to minimize its dissatisfaction with the technology it bypassed.
"The Gecko engine is fairly well-regarded engine," said Chris Bourdon, product marketing manager for Mac OS X. "It isn't to say that there is anything poor about Gecko or Mozilla. The Safari team just felt KHTML was a better code base from which they could build a browser."
Bourdon said Safari engineers looked at size, speed and compatibility in choosing KHTML. In addition to Mozilla, Apple also considered building its own browser from scratch.
Bourdon said the fact KHTML's small size--140,000 lines of code--let Apple build a browser that is a svelte 3 MB in size. He compared that with Netscape's more than 17 MB, though that includes an e-mail reader and other peripheral applications.
Untying browser knots Apple, which embarked on its browser project in order to free itself further from dependence on Microsoft and its Internet Explorer browser, may have balked at using Mozilla because of its ties to AOL Time Warner. The media giant's Netscape unit funds and staffs Mozilla's nonvolunteer positions.
Though shared enmity with Microsoft has made Apple's relations with AOL Time Warner comparatively warm, the question remains whether Apple would want to trade in its browser reliance on the world's largest technology company for that of the world's largest media and technology company.
Apple and analysts alike insisted that technical, rather than political, considerations were the real reason behind Apple's choice.
"Every discussion I had with them had more to do with the quality and size of the kernel and what they could do with it," said Tim Bajarin, an analyst at Creative Strategies in San Jose, Calif. "My suspicion is the real goal was to just try to work with what they considered the best technology that they could build on. And they did a heck of a lot of research."
Since Safari's release last week, Web developers have been trying the browser out and discovering bugs in its rendering capabilities and standards compliance. That's only to be expected from the first public beta of a browser, and Safari's Hyatt has been maintaining a Web log detailing some of the more prominent problems and their resolutions.
While Mozilla has long carried the torch of standards compliance, standards advocates called the new prominence of its open-source competitor a boon for Web standards.
"The two projects have had very different histories and goals--some very much in line with our stance, and some that may have served to detract attention away from their implementing standards as well as we'd like," said Steven Champeon, a member of the Web Standards Project and chief technology officer of Hesketh.com. "But in the long run, as long as the number of highly standards-compliant browsers continues to grow, and we can see some great competition out there, everyone wins."
One Web developer cheered Apple's decision, and agreed with the company's comparative evaluation of the two open-source browsers.
KHTML is "very fast, doesn't have nearly the bloat of Mozilla, and does most of what I need," said Alex Russell, a Web application developer for SecurePipe and a lead developer for netWindows. "The Mozilla rendering engine isn't slow, but at the same time it has emphasized crossplatform correctness over speed, while KTHML has taken a slightly more expedient approach of shooting for a smaller feature set, getting it right, and then making things fast."
If your friends are just finishing their Masters's now or recently, their current lack of employment probably has nothing to do with being over-qualified and everything to do with the sucky economy.
I thought it was a great turn out and really enjoyed the conversation. there was actually a second girl who showed up later on... i wonder if that's a national record??? Really laid back crowd though. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised.
As for the meetup place... somewhere less fancy would definitely be better. I'd suggest Oddessa -- a low_key hipster bar on st. mark's and ave A. The drinks are $3-$6.
Does anyone else have any suggestions?
BTW, does anyone know what happened to the digital camera pictures? I really hope they get posted somewhere.
thinking practically for a moment - in order to avoid the chaos of mistatements everyone would have to depend on 3rd parties to vouch for the facts. We would only trust verified statements.
I for one appreciate that the legal system takes care of this. When I read a negative political ad. I can take it as truth (or something not completly false) because the author could otherwise be held accountable in court.
I can't understand why you would want to defend someone's ability to lie.
Maybe we could debate whether or not it should be a criminal offense, but it should definely be illegal.
I can not see the possible value or intrinsic good to encouraging people to publicly state lies as fact. And not penalizing them is the same as encouraging. People need to have outlets for free speech to speak out against corruption and all that, and they do. But that ability should not be used as a vehicle to hurt people.
I am not a religious jew and only mention this because I see it's value, but there is a jewish laws called "lashon ha-raah." Meaning bad (or wrongful) speech. This moral standard states that you're not supposed to tell even truths about people if it will come to embarress them. Basically don't gossip about people. In general I agree with this but of course it cannot and should not be enforced.
I brought this up so as to contrast it with warning someone. There is nothing wrong with saying negative things about someone as long as you have a reason to do so. So by this negative political campains are valuable... as long as they are not misleading or unnecessarily nasty.
So, without regard for western law, I am also trying to discuss what what free speech would be morally. For actual law though, there are other consideration because in the real world you have to consider the practical implications. Could you please explain your view of free speech in more depth. I'm not challanging you to disagree with me, but if you do I would appreciate your viewpoint.
I concede your point about the list. I didn't understand that the list only blocks spam that is sent to he subscribe of the anti-spam list.
As for free speech, it is essential that people be able to express their opinions freely, but statements of fact must be accurate. This is my understanding of the current law (in the US at least). Newspapers for example have to check facts before they run a story.
Just think how chaotic society would be if you could print any lie you wanted without reprecusions.
Does this contradict your principle of "absolute free speech?"
Free speech ends when what you are saying is untrue and hurtful to someone else's business.
If this guy isn't a spammer (meaning he only sends solicited ads) shouldn't he be able to sue for libel?
The specifics of this case are a little shady, but let's imagine that say buy.com was put on an anti-spammer list... How much revenue would they lose? Whose fault would it be?
Free speech ends when what you are saying is untrue and hurtful to someone else's business.
If this guy isn't a spammer (meaning he only sends solicited ads) shouldn't he be able to sue for libel?
The specifics of this case are a little shady, but let's imagine that say buy.com was put on an anti-spammer list... How much revenue would they lose? Whose fault would it be?
Slashdot Mirror
Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions
by Brian Christian, Tom Griffiths
Most useful amazon review (by Wolfcrow):
There are predictably a number of readers who will look at this title and shy away, thinking that a book with "algorithms" in its title must be just for techies and computer scientists. There will be others who pride themselves on being technologically astute who think they know all about algorithms already. Both groups are wrong. Both will be astounded and profoundly affected by the human applications Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths make in this book for all of us. I should qualify that; it is a book for anyone who has ever had difficulty in such tasks as "when to stop looking" (for an apartment, for instance); how to schedule a busy family's priorities; how to clean out the garage; how to stop thinking about a problem; how to network. In fact, all the day-to-day problems that follow us from waking up to going to bed are addressed here by the human use of algorithms. I confess that I was grateful for the definition of "algorithms" early in the book; it is one of those words that everyone uses but many of us would have been hard put to explain. Notice I wrote "would have been" because this book explains it all so clearly that neophytes can understand it and technological people will not feel they are being patronized. And all of us who really use this book (not just read, but use) will find it has made our lives more productive, better organized, and essentially, much happier. Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths are geniuses at combining cutting edge philosophy with information we can use to make our lives richer.
VS, .NetCore, and c# are all available for Linux.
It didn't make me laugh, but I have to admit that I find it a clever way to comment on a political issue: not abortion itself, but rather the way anti-abortion proponents try to exert control on abortion clinics by forcing them to talk-down to their patients as if they were ignorant children.
Agreed. Nothing wrong with productivity itself.
My reading of the article:
Dedicating yourself to a carefully chosen purpose is cool, but the author is ranting against people who have become obsessed with productivity for it's own sake, as a form of idolatry.
My takeaway:
Stop being so damn busy all the time and spend more time reflecting on what's actually important.
Thanks for the link to the Latchkey standeards. I was initially apalled to read that the "minimum age of home alone child" in the state if Illinois is 14 (the highest on the chart). Then I read the actual Illinois statute, "[A neglected child is] any minor under the age of 14 years whose parent or other person responsible for the minor's welfare leaves the minor without supervision for an unreasonable period of time without regard for the mental or physical health, safety, or welfare of that minor;"
In other words, it's a guidline for law enforcement / Child Protective Services.
I expect that most places have reasonable laws that do actually trust parents. Some places, like Illinois, try to have laws that will help them addressing true neglect.
The article is just about some police officers who called CPS because they happen to be dicks. I am sure this surprises nobody. Not news.
This is an impressive open source CRM platform that is absent from the list.
http://civicrm.org/
It can be used in conjunction with Drupal or Joomla.
http://c-jump.com/
There was post about this game on slashdot many years back. It's like candyland, but with C like expressions. It's not going to teach a kid how to program, but it will help lay the foundation.
Words from an "old dog" programmer I work with:
---
One day an old German Shepherd starts chasing rabbits and before long, discovers that he's lost. Wandering about, he notices a panther heading rapidly in his direction with the intention of having lunch.
The old German Shepherd thinks,
"Oh oh! I'm in deep s*** now!"
Noticing some bones on the ground close by, he immediately settles down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching cat. Just as the panther is about to leap, the old German Shepherd exclaims loudly,
"Boy, that was one delicious panther!
I wonder, if there are any more around here?"
Hearing this, the young panther halts his attack in mid-strike, a look of terror comes over him and he slinks away into the trees.
"Whew!," says the panther,
"That was close! That old German Shepherd nearly had me!"
Meanwhile, a squirrel who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree, figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the panther. So, off he goes.
The squirrel soon catches up with the panther, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the panther
The young panther is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here, squirrel, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving canine!"
Now, the old German Shepherd sees the panther coming with the squirrel on his back and thinks, "What am I going to do now?," but instead of running, the dog sits down with his back to his attackers, pretending he hasn't seen them yet, and just when they get close enough to hear, the old German Shepherd says...
"Where's that squirrel? I sent him off an hour ago to bring me another panther!"
Moral of this story...
Don't mess with the old dogs...
Age and skill will always overcome youth and treachery!
BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
I have a friend who works at SoCal Edison. He explained that this risk has been a known one for quite some time. SoCal is working on refitting the meters so that they can charge different amounts for energy during different times of the day. If people charge cars at 10PM it won't be a problem, but it will be if they do it at 5pm when they get home from work, they'll be adding to the peak usage that comes from day time air conditioner use. Right now, people who purchase electric cars already have the option to switch their meter over to the modern one so that they can pay the reduced rate for energy usage during off-peak times.
Man, I haven't posted in years... but there's a great book by this title written by two mathematicians. They talk about the topology of knots as well as the history of ties. Which actors/celebrities wore what tie knots, etc.
I can't seem to locate my copy at the moment, but from what I recall, there are an infinite number of potential knots, but they are classified by the number of sequences in them. And within a certain number of steps, (I think 5) there are 85 possible ways to tie a tie. Then they rank them by symmetry and a copule other criteria.
I recommend it to anybody who is interested in this subject. It's out of print, but it's still possible to find a copy for sale online.
So yeah, i'm a slashdotter taking a break from the tech scene for a while (was working on wall street, currently backpacking around India). Of course I have nothing better to do on a Friday night :) so why the heck not engage in a little revenge of the nerds?
First time I called they hung up.
Second time, they asked my name. I gave it and said i referred by tyrone king. They said they don't have anything available. I was like, "really, isn't that what you guys do?" She asked what I do and I explained my situation. "Sorry, we don't have anything available." But she took down my temporary e-mail address: avi.job[at]umich.edu.
Very curious to see if I'll ever hear back from them. Course I haven't the slightest interest in DC while backpacking around India. This is the place where all the *really* interesting stuff is happening.
Yeah, this is one step closer to the brain implant, then the matrix. You see, it all started with the swiss army knife. Or maybe even the wheel or the club or the thrown rock. This is why technology is evil and ung[G?]odly.
Kidding of course. But this theme is very common in philosophy (not just in Sci-Fi!):
1. Who am I?
2. Am I my actions? No. Maybe. I don't know.
3. Am I my thoughts? Yes!
4. So my thoughts are more important than the physical world? Yes!
5. So I could theoretically eliminate the physical world and still be me? Probably.
6. What if I also eliminate some of my less relevant thoughts?
7. And what if my mental processes as observed by others could be duplicated perfectly by a computer program?
8. And what if they are duplicated perfectly not only as observed by others, but also in fact?
9. So who the hell am I?
My answer: I don't exist; I'm a figment of my own imagination. Consciousness is an illusionary contruct which has facilitated the perpetuation of human species. A series of complex, intricate, and interconnected cell membranes which serve as a duplicating medium for strands of DNA do not a soul comprise. But that doesn't stop us from rebelling against the truth with song, dance, or in my case, a couple of beers.
didn't implement it too well. With the scale all the way towards "research" the top result was a link to store.yahoo.com!
try doing a search on "robot toy."
So does this open up the possibility for a real mars colony at some point in the future?
You left out Blue Gender.
Is it possible to get these books onto my pda.
I like learning new languages on the subway...
Applications
Mozilla hurt by Apple blast
By Paul Festa
Special to ZDNet News
January 14, 2003, 4:00 AM PT
AOL Time Warner's Mozilla project is facing new questions about quality after Apple Computer's release of a browser based on rival open-source code.
Apple last week unveiled its own browser, called Safari. The company said it was based on the KHTML rendering engine that is the core of Konqueror, an open-source file manager and Web browser for the K Desktop Environment (KDE).
In an e-mail congratulating KHTML engineers on their work and its selection by Apple, Safari's engineering manager touted the technology over Mozilla and its rendering engine, Gecko.
"When we were evaluating technologies over a year ago, KHTML and KJS stood out," Safari Engineering Manager Don Melton wrote. (KJS is KDE's JavaScript interpreter.) "Not only were they the basis of an excellent, modern and standards-compliant Web browser, they were also less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of development within that code made it a better choice for us than other open-source projects."
Despite its diplomatic tone and anonymous reference, Mozilla veterans read between the lines of Melton's message.
In a Web log, Mozilla founder and former evangelist Jamie Zawinski said Apple is bad-mouthing Mozilla.
"Translated through a de-weaselizer, (Melton's e-mail) says: 'Even though some of us used to work on Mozilla, we have to admit that the Mozilla code is a gigantic, bloated mess, not to mention slow, and with an internal API so flamboyantly baroque that frankly we can't even comprehend where to begin,'" Zawinski wrote.
One Mozilla staff member called KHTML selection an understandable if not foregone conclusion, given Mozilla's technical problems.
"I guess I'm supposed to be mortally offended--or at least embarrassed--that they went with KHTML instead of our Gecko engine, but I'm having trouble working up the indignation," wrote Mike Shaver in a Web log posting. "We've all known forever that Gecko missed its 'small-and-lean' target by an area code, and we've been slogging back towards the goal, dragging our profilers and benchmarks behind us, for years."
Shaver, who left Netscape three years ago but retained his position on the small Mozilla staff, said that in Apple's shoes he might have made a similar decision.
"If I had to write a new browser, and I was going to have to touch the layout code in a serious way, I would think about Mozilla alternatives," Shaver wrote. "I really, really hope that Mozilla will learn from Safari/KHTML, because they've done a lot of great work in about a tenth of the code."
Mitchell Baker, who goes by the title of chief lizard wrangler at Mozilla, defended the Mozilla project against technical gripes in a prepared statement. "Gecko offers crossplatform capabilities, leading standards support as well as a full feature set and tested compatibility on the Web," she said.
"Gecko's speedy crossplatform nature is important to maintaining a Web to which all users have access regardless of their platform," she added. "Gecko is already embedded and distributed in real-world applications from Red Hat, IBM, OEone, Netscape and CompuServe, and we look forward to the upcoming releases of Gecko-based products that are currently in development."
Slow progress
Mozilla has faced criticism before over the pace of its development efforts, which were originally conceived as the Web community's best chance to challenge the dominance of Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Mozilla 1.0 was released last year, after long delays that effectively allowed Microsoft to cement its lead.
AOL Time Warner's Netscape division issued Netscape 6--its first browser based on the Mozilla code--to poor reviews, but a subsequent update answered many of the critics. Netscape Communications is Mozilla's corporate sponsor.
Mozilla and Netscape have both seen small gains in market share, appearing in the market alongside an independent entry from Norway's Opera Software. None has significantly challenged Microsoft's lead, however, which remains well above 90 percent, according to a recent survey.
Apple's browser is unlikely to alter the market-share picture, but is still a significant entry into the field. Although it caters to a small group of users, it could help Apple wean itself from its reliance on Microsoft's IE and create new software services. Apple's vote also carries significant weight in software circles as a result of its development of several highly-regarded applications for its Macintosh personal computers, particularly its iTunes and iPhoto multimedia tools.
Melton's e-mail detailed the Safari team's deep roots in the Mozilla project. Melton helped launch Mozilla in 1998. Safari engineer David Hyatt launched Chimera, a version of Mozilla for Mac OS X.
Asked to elaborate on its rejection of Mozilla, Apple went out of its way to minimize its dissatisfaction with the technology it bypassed.
"The Gecko engine is fairly well-regarded engine," said Chris Bourdon, product marketing manager for Mac OS X. "It isn't to say that there is anything poor about Gecko or Mozilla. The Safari team just felt KHTML was a better code base from which they could build a browser."
Bourdon said Safari engineers looked at size, speed and compatibility in choosing KHTML. In addition to Mozilla, Apple also considered building its own browser from scratch.
Bourdon said the fact KHTML's small size--140,000 lines of code--let Apple build a browser that is a svelte 3 MB in size. He compared that with Netscape's more than 17 MB, though that includes an e-mail reader and other peripheral applications.
Untying browser knots
Apple, which embarked on its browser project in order to free itself further from dependence on Microsoft and its Internet Explorer browser, may have balked at using Mozilla because of its ties to AOL Time Warner. The media giant's Netscape unit funds and staffs Mozilla's nonvolunteer positions.
Though shared enmity with Microsoft has made Apple's relations with AOL Time Warner comparatively warm, the question remains whether Apple would want to trade in its browser reliance on the world's largest technology company for that of the world's largest media and technology company.
Apple and analysts alike insisted that technical, rather than political, considerations were the real reason behind Apple's choice.
"Every discussion I had with them had more to do with the quality and size of the kernel and what they could do with it," said Tim Bajarin, an analyst at Creative Strategies in San Jose, Calif. "My suspicion is the real goal was to just try to work with what they considered the best technology that they could build on. And they did a heck of a lot of research."
Since Safari's release last week, Web developers have been trying the browser out and discovering bugs in its rendering capabilities and standards compliance. That's only to be expected from the first public beta of a browser, and Safari's Hyatt has been maintaining a Web log detailing some of the more prominent problems and their resolutions.
While Mozilla has long carried the torch of standards compliance, standards advocates called the new prominence of its open-source competitor a boon for Web standards.
"The two projects have had very different histories and goals--some very much in line with our stance, and some that may have served to detract attention away from their implementing standards as well as we'd like," said Steven Champeon, a member of the Web Standards Project and chief technology officer of Hesketh.com. "But in the long run, as long as the number of highly standards-compliant browsers continues to grow, and we can see some great competition out there, everyone wins."
One Web developer cheered Apple's decision, and agreed with the company's comparative evaluation of the two open-source browsers.
KHTML is "very fast, doesn't have nearly the bloat of Mozilla, and does most of what I need," said Alex Russell, a Web application developer for SecurePipe and a lead developer for netWindows. "The Mozilla rendering engine isn't slow, but at the same time it has emphasized crossplatform correctness over speed, while KTHML has taken a slightly more expedient approach of shooting for a smaller feature set, getting it right, and then making things fast."
If your friends are just finishing their Masters's now or recently, their current lack of employment probably has nothing to do with being over-qualified and everything to do with the sucky economy.
I thought it was a great turn out and really enjoyed the conversation.
there was actually a second girl who showed up later on... i wonder if that's a national record???
Really laid back crowd though. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised.
As for the meetup place... somewhere less fancy would definitely be better. I'd suggest Oddessa -- a low_key hipster bar on st. mark's and ave A.
The drinks are $3-$6.
Does anyone else have any suggestions?
BTW, does anyone know what happened to the digital camera pictures? I really hope they get posted somewhere.
thinking practically for a moment - in order to avoid the chaos of mistatements everyone would have to depend on 3rd parties to vouch for the facts. We would only trust verified statements.
I for one appreciate that the legal system takes care of this. When I read a negative political ad. I can take it as truth (or something not completly false) because the author could otherwise be held accountable in court.
I can't understand why you would want to defend someone's ability to lie.
Maybe we could debate whether or not it should be a criminal offense, but it should definely be illegal.
I can not see the possible value or intrinsic good to encouraging people to publicly state lies as fact. And not penalizing them is the same as encouraging. People need to have outlets for free speech to speak out against corruption and all that, and they do. But that ability should not be used as a vehicle to hurt people.
I am not a religious jew and only mention this because I see it's value, but there is a jewish laws called "lashon ha-raah." Meaning bad (or wrongful) speech. This moral standard states that you're not supposed to tell even truths about people if it will come to embarress them. Basically don't gossip about people. In general I agree with this but of course it cannot and should not be enforced.
I brought this up so as to contrast it with warning someone. There is nothing wrong with saying negative things about someone as long as you have a reason to do so. So by this negative political campains are valuable... as long as they are not misleading or unnecessarily nasty.
So, without regard for western law, I am also trying to discuss what what free speech would be morally. For actual law though, there are other consideration because in the real world you have to consider the practical implications. Could you please explain your view of free speech in more depth. I'm not challanging you to disagree with me, but if you do I would appreciate your viewpoint.
-Avi
I concede your point about the list. I didn't understand that the list only blocks spam that is sent to he subscribe of the anti-spam list.
As for free speech, it is essential that people be able to express their opinions freely, but statements of fact must be accurate. This is my understanding of the current law (in the US at least). Newspapers for example have to check facts before they run a story.
Just think how chaotic society would be if you could print any lie you wanted without reprecusions.
Does this contradict your principle of "absolute free speech?"
-Avi
Free speech ends when what you are saying is untrue and hurtful to someone else's business.
If this guy isn't a spammer (meaning he only sends solicited ads) shouldn't he be able to sue for libel?
The specifics of this case are a little shady, but let's imagine that say buy.com was put on an anti-spammer list... How much revenue would they lose? Whose fault would it be?
Free speech ends when what you are saying is untrue and hurtful to someone else's business.
If this guy isn't a spammer (meaning he only sends solicited ads) shouldn't he be able to sue for libel?
The specifics of this case are a little shady, but let's imagine that say buy.com was put on an anti-spammer list... How much revenue would they lose? Whose fault would it be?
for both dial screen and built-in blackberry keyboard.
-Avi
A near miss - it almost missed us, but then actually didn't. What a relief!