Mars Express Confirms Water on Mars

jki writes "So, finally: Through the initial mapping of the South polar cap on 18 January, OMEGA, the combined camera and infrared spectrometer, has already revealed the presence of water ice and carbon dioxide ice. This information was confirmed by the PFS, a new high-resolution spectrometer of unprecedented accuracy. The first PFS data also show that the carbon oxide distribution is different in the northern and southern hemispheres of Mars. The MaRS instrument, a sophisticated radio transmitter and receiver, emitted a first signal successfully on 21 January that was received on Earth through a 70- metre antenna in Australia after it was reflected and scattered from the surface of Mars. This new measurement technique allows the detection of the chemical composition of the Mars atmosphere, ionosphere and surface." On another note, NASA has gotten some sort of signal from Spirit, but it's still not fully functional.

Comments

heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the terraforming begin!

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Terraforming?! Do you know what this means? It means that we now have rocket fuel, air, and drinkable water all for the taking! The primary equipment necessary is one nuclear power plant! That just leaves the problem of rockets that are still in one piece by the time they make it to Mars.

Segway into GCNR rockets. They can be used for space travel, and landing and taking off. We could even build CO2 breathing "flyers" for easy transport from orbit to the surface and back. If NASA can, they should start work on the proper engines immediately! WhooHoo!!!

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Segway into GCNR rockets

"Segway" is a brand-named personal transporter, you mean "segue".

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Doh! You got me. Damn marketdroids. They're taking over my mind I tell you! ;-)

Re:heh

[kj0rn]

"Credits: ESA/DLR/FU Berlin (G. Neukum)"

So thats what the Duke has been up to...

john.e.boy

Re:heh

[LnxAddct]

Can't wait to see what the Martian Defense System does now! I can see them sitting there going, "Shit! They know too much! Let's go wait for that other lander thats coming."

Re:heh

[nucal]

If Segways could be used for space travel, then I'd actually consider getting one ...

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Oddly, Neukum is Dutch for fuck'em.

Re:heh

[forand]

But why? In all seriousness what reason do we have to go to Mars? The moon is a much better astronomy platform since it has no atmosphere and lower gravity, plus it is much easier to get to.

So what purpose does going to Mars serve? I am a physicist btw, working on GLAST for what is is worth.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Like YAH and im the QUEEN OF ENGLAND!

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

In all seriousness what reason do we have to go to Mars?

That is a difficult question, isn't it? The most common (and vague) answer would be Hillary's, "Because it's there." While that may not seem like a very good reason on the surface, it's really just an attempt to explain a strong pioneering spirit that is pervasive in many cultures.

To actually look at the benefits of space travel however, you need to look at it from an economic standpoint instead of a scientific one. Opening up space to colonization would trigger a new economy. Those who take the step toward space will need various raw materials. Those raw materials are plentiful on asteroids, moons, and planetoids. Thus space based businesses could make a mint by mining and selling raw materials. Those raw materials could then be processed by space smelters and factories. Those factories could then produce a variety of products, including space craft such as cruise ships or colonization ships. Various institutions could then form colonization efforts where the cost is split among the settlers. (Similar to the settlers of the Americas; the Mayflower being a common example.)

But what does this have to do with Mars? Well, space is a pretty vast place. If we assume for a moment that companies become interested in mining asteroids in the belt just past Mars, then we have to ask the question of how they're going to be supported. Sending ships from Earth would be problematic at best, very slow with catastrophic results in case of failure at worst. However, if Mars were used as a staging point for mining support and materials processing, trips back and forth could be substantially shortened.

Of course, all of this requires the development of high thust AND high Isp engines. Of all the options available, only nuclear engines meet the necessary criteria. GCNR (Gas Core Nuclear Rocket) engines can throw the same mass as chemical engines, but have a much higher Isp (3000-5000). These would work well as a launch solution, space plane solution (since they could potentially "breath" atmospheric gases), and as a initial solution for interplanetary travel. However, even GCNR engines have a low Isp when you take into account how much space is out there. Thus the next step would be the development of pure space drives such as Orion or Nuclear Salt Rockets. Both of these would provide an excellent solution for non-landing craft with high thrust, high Isp, and excellent fuel and mass capacity. They'd have so much power, that they could easily carry GCNR space plane crafts as landing shuttles. (The largest Orion design calls for 8 million tons of ship mass.)

More info on propulsion methods on Wikipedia.

Does that help explain it?

Re:heh

[Arthur Dent]

Segway? Have they started making rockets now? They must be the self stabilizing ones huh?
:)

<sotto-voice>I think you meant seque </sotto-voice>

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Ahem. You're a little late. ;-)

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I would believe the business reasons if businesses were planning to go to Mars. I do think it will be profitable some day.

But businesses are not funding the trip to Mars, instead it is Mr. Bush spending other people's money. This suggests that profit does not yet match up with cost. The fact that there will be some positive outcomes does not make this a good choice. Instead of funding a net-loss trip to Mars, we could let the private sector use the capital for one of the infinite number of net-profit ventures that is unfunded.

Going to Mars is just a big space-ship sized barrel of pork chosen because Bush's closest state in the last election was Florida, center of the US Space program. Its a piece of pork that geeks think is cool, but its pork nonetheless. Wake up, people!

patri friedman

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Unfortunately, it is the government's responsibility to encourage new economic growth. Capitalism is great (at least I like it), but it requires that the government help it along every once in awhile. Since space is not a "safe" investment, no company is going to invest in it. Not to mention that Nuclear technologies are still carefully controlled. Thus the government is going to have to develop the initial technology, prove it, then give it away to companies who wish to make a profit on it.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

BTW, I was reading up on GLAST and came across this:

GLAST is a next generation high-energy gamma-ray observatory designed for making observations of celestial gamma-ray sources in the energy band extending from 10 MeV to more than 100 GeV.

Just out of curiosity, what would be able to hit the craft with 100 Giga-electron Volts of Gamma radiation? I could see getting hit with that much energy close to the Sun, but over interstellar distances?

Or perhaps I'm just overestimating how much energy 100 GeV is?

Re:heh

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

I'm not an astrophysicist, but based on things I've read, I wouldn't expect 100GeV stuff coming from the sun. But there are other things in the universe (black holes, magnetars) that can make photons and other stuff with that kind of energy, and much higher (I've seen some articles about cosmic rays with energies of ~10^21 eV, although nobody knows for sure where they come from).

As far as distance from the source goes, photons only get scattered if they interact with something . As long as there's not much between 'there' and 'here,' they can get through, even if it does take a while.

Re:heh

[crabpeople]

"So what purpose does going to Mars serve?"

1) because its there. 2) because we need more land/resources for the growing number of people on earth. 3) because when i was a kid i had a preminition of my death on mars. I was sitting in a drive in watching an old movie. I was an old man, but i remmeber looking up at the little pinprick that was the earth and smiling.

im pretty sure that there will be a 50's revival of culture on mars at the time of my death.

we need projects that bring the entire world together. going to mars could do that. Also i think that americans love to spend money on 'defense'. if all that money were moved to something vaguely constructive we could teraform mars within a few generations. INAMTE (mars terraforming expert) so i'm not sure but I am sure that if governements poured as much money into trying to survive as they do trying to kill eatchother we would be alot better off.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

As far as distance from the source goes, photons only get scattered if they interact with something . As long as there's not much between 'there' and 'here,' they can get through, even if it does take a while.

Interesting. I guess all I have to say about that is that I sure as hell don't want to be in the way of 100 GeVs of Gamma energy, much less 10^21 eVs. That kind of energy could spell instant toast for an astronaut.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

But businesses are not funding the trip to Mars, instead it is Mr. Bush spending other people's money. I wonder if you make that same argument when talking about how we should all have free health care. Even seen (I believe it was) Walter Williams' proposals on spending? He drew up one plan where the US government spent ONLY on what the US Constitution specifically set out for fed gov to spend. To be brief, we could cut taxes a whole lot and still not be in any financial trouble. Boo socialism.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

He drew up one plan where the US government spent ONLY on what the US Constitution specifically set out for fed gov to spend.

Does that mean that the Military would still be properly funded? (I assume so, since they're in the constitution.) I suppose the downside is that organizations like NASA would need a constitutional amendment to be funded or would have to become subsections of organizations like the Navy, (e.g. The Air Force is organized that way.)

Re:heh

[sgage]

"Hillary's, "Because it's there."

But Hillary did not ask for (at least) tens of billions of tax dollars to accomplish his explorations.

- Steve

Re:heh

[sgage]

"Thus the government is going to have to develop the initial technology, prove it, then give it away to companies who wish to make a profit on it."

Oh, and those same companies will profit heartily all along the development path, with our tax dollars. Then, after we've paid them to develop the technology, and assumed all the risk, we'll hand it over to them to make more profit.

This is known as corporate welfare.

Re:heh

[sgage]

"1) because its there. 2) because we need more land/resources for the growing number of people on earth."

Are you serious? Are you imagining that there is any way that significant numbers of people are going to be able to be transported to Mars? That's insanity.

Re:heh

[flyneye]

terraforming!?
hell,lets put up a brewery!

Re:heh

[iron_weasel]

And Hillary said"Because it's there."
Wow I didn't know she had that good old pioneering spririt. She does look kinda doughty and skanky now you mention it but I believe it was Bill who had the real pioneering spirit. The oval office needed desecrating and he was there and ready to do it.
The 'handsoff' nubile lowhanging fruit was there and by yimminies he took it didn't he!!

What role models these two have been. Nothing can stop such spirit whyyy we can do anything having been shown the true pioneering spirit.

Re:heh

[TilJ]

If you subscribe to the theory that wars are almost invariably the result of population pressure on scarce resources, then it's easy to see that the /possibility/ of reduced pressure might be enough to greatly improve life on Earth.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

For your sake, I seriously hope you're joking about Hillary.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

That kind of energy could spell instant toast for an astronaut.

Not really.

You probably wouldn't notice it at all. For a start, it's unlikely to dump terribly much of that energy into your body. It's more absorbed radiation that's the problem, along with cumulative dose.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

This is known as corporate welfare.

Not exactly. It's known as "incentive". If you want others to do something, you have to give them an incentive to do it. "Welfare" gives people an incentive to sit on their butts and breed good democratic voters. (Which sucks, because some people really just need a helping hand, not a complete lock-in solution.) Economic incentives reduce the amount of risk in entering a new market, thus making it more attractive to those who might be willing to develop it.

So the primary difference is:

Welfare == Sit on your ass an do nothing
Economic Incentives == Air bag for desirable but risky work

That being said, there's quite a few "economic incentives" that are really Pork in disguise. I simply don't believe that space travel is one of them.

Re:heh

[Walt Dismal]

In related news, this morning SCO filed a claim for Mars, stating that it owns the patent on rust.

Re:heh

[Silicon Avatar]

Once upon a time, the idea of putting people on boats for month-long trips seemed insane ...

I think someone earlier posted the result of those actual endeavours...

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

While I understand that most of the Gamma rays will miss, 160 watts (1 joule == 1 watt per second) worth of radiation is not something I'd be keen on taking my chances with. Of course, the space craft skin and flight suits will help reduce the actual dosage. Still, that's a hellva lot of energy to be simply floating around.

Re:heh

[confused one]

They're referring to the energy of a single photon... Black holes & some supernova & a few other sources can generate such high energies.

Re:heh

[hobbesmaster]

We did it with the transcontinental railroads and the Panama canal, why not do it with space?

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Ah, ok. See I was missing that part. I had visions of large numbers of Gamma photons slamming into this poor little craft. Thanks for the clarification! :-)

Re:heh

[Serveert]

kinda like DARPA eh?

Re:heh

[the gnat]

But Hillary did not ask for (at least) tens of billions of tax dollars to accomplish his explorations.

Try hundreds of billions, which is what NASA told W's father a Mars mission would cost back in 1989. There's no reason to believe that it would be any cheaper today.

Re:heh

[Guppy06]

"In all seriousness what reason do we have to go to Mars?"

To get away from all the people that have to have the "why?" part explained to them. There's a fundamental difference between you and I and I'd be more comfortable not being on the same planet. This is not to say that you're a bad person per se, but I'd rather not have to compete with people who don't feel that calling. I don't want to have to justify myself and my feelings to people such as yourself.

Mod me as you will, but there is a degree of religion in this in the sense that this is more of the heart than of the head and as such really can't be explained in rational terms. A "manifest destiny" of sorts, where the reasons are only manifest only if you are able to and allow yourself to look at them instead of relying soley on rational debate. It would be easier to explain color to someone who can't (or won't) see.

There is no reason for "us" to go to Mars, but there is definately a reason for "me" to go to Mars. I personally am not in favor in requiring non-believers to help me and those who feel as I do get off this rock and am open to alternatives. But part of my desire to leave is the people who seem to require I justify myself and my desires before they decide whether they are "worthy."

Besides, do you really want to keep a loon like me around? :)

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I realize that you are a capitalist and that everything should be driven by profits in your world. But the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of scientific research generates ZERO profits--at least in the short term. With your attitude, should we eliminate all theoretical physics (eg. studying the origin of universe, black holes, etc), social science (hardly any money to be made here), biology (why waste time studying animals?), history (who cares), etc.

Knowledge is not a profit-generating instrument. Capitalists have a hard time understanding this. Unfortunately, I have a feeling you just never will realize it...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I could be wrong but I don't think the US is even supposed to have a permanent military according to the old laws. I know some of the Founding Fathers were against "standing armies" and I'm not sure what the Constitution says about that. You are also supposed to have militias that protect citizens. It seems militias have gone the way of the dodo bird.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

How do you know you died on Mars? Maybe you were on another planet? Or maybe your fate is for some alien to kidnap you and take you to another planet ;) And when you meet that alien send him over to me--I have some questions to ask it (about the meaning of life, the origin of universe, and stuff like that ;) )

As far as terraforming is concerned, that's way too difficult now. I'm not an expert either but I haven't read anything that comes anywhere near terraforming. Humans have enough problems terraforming earth (eg. we CAN'T convert a desert to a plain) that Mars is almost impossible. I think we will only develop terraforming after we develop planetary capabilities (eg. ability to use gravity, ability to move a satellite like the moon to a different orbit, etc). At least that's how most sci-fi games are :) Right now we have ZERO planetary-level capabilities.

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly that humans need to start cooperating. Space missions are way too expensive for one country to do it.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

That war theory is clearly wrong in my opinion. It might be true in some cases but it does not apply to all wars. There are wars that are driven by ideology. Examples include: European crusades to convert people to Christianity, battle between "Communism" and "capitalism" (eg. Cold War), etc. On top of that, many civil wars are NOT due to resources.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:heh

[wideBlueSkies]

>>"Hillary's, "Because it's there."

I thought this was Monica's answer when asked why she swallowd the presidental member. ;)

wbs.

Re:heh

[juhaz]

Terraforming doesn't need to be fast, if Mars becomes gradually warmer and moister during the next 100000 years because we dump greenhouse gases and CO2 producing genetic engineered bacteria there, it's terraforming.

Global warming is "terraforming", we do have some primitive planetary level capabilities, but they take lot of time to cause anything noticeable.

And that's probably how it'll stay, we won't be slapping hyperspace engines on Moon anytime soon and cruise to center of the galaxy with it.

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Terraforming doesn't need to be fast, if Mars becomes gradually warmer and moister during the next 100000 years because we dump greenhouse gases and CO2 producing genetic engineered bacteria there, it's terraforming.

Given that human history doesn't even go back 100,000 years, I don't think one can really consider that as true terraforming. I think when people talk about terraforming they are talking something very short (on the order of a 100 years maximum).

You are right that Global Warming is terraforming. However, like many other things in life, humans can only take it one way and we don't have much control over it. For example, we can't reverse Global Warming. Sure we can slow it down or eliminate it but not reverse it. This is just like how we can create desert out of plains (just chop down all the trees and eliminate vegetation) but we can't create plains out of a desert. Or how we can blow up a mountain but we can't put it together.

So I don't think you can count things like pollution (which is indeed terraforming) as true terraforming. Not only do we have little control over it, we can't even reverse it.

I believe that we need some planetary level capability for true terraforming. If we can control the weather (say eliminate storms) then we will be close to terraforming. Needless to say, we have very little control over the weather (let alone try to predict it to high precision).

As far as cruising with hyperspace engines is concerned, well, I don't believe in hypersapce engines. But I do believe in time travel via wormholes or tippler cylinders :) Time travel is even harder than terraforming so I'm not going to go there. Time travel requires manipulating star-like objects and right now we can't even manipulate a planet :(

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:heh

[mcsuper5]

Unfortunately, it is the government's responsibility to encourage new economic growth. Capitalism is great (at least I like it), but it requires that the government help it along every once in awhile.

The problem with Capitalism is that the government messes it up, if they stayed out eventually the market would be able to maintain itself. The free market is so warped and contorted because of the gov't trying to fix things, and then trying to fix what they messed up, etc.

Since space is not a "safe" investment, no company is going to invest in it.

It's a gamble, but the rewards are so great that many companies will invest resources for a cut.

Thus the government is going to have to develop the initial technology, prove it, then give it away to companies who wish to make a profit on it.

So we pay taxes, the goverment pays corps for the R & D (with taxes), the corps develop product X, and sell it to us (while we get to pay more taxes on it.)

Leave the government out, let the corporations fund their own R & D, and profit on that (the goverment still gets taxes on it.)

Re:heh

[juhaz]

Given that human history doesn't even go back 100,000 years

Well, homo sapiens has been around for 200 000 years. And even in the current form at least 50 000.

I don't think one can really consider that as true terraforming. I think when people talk about terraforming they are talking something very short (on the order of a 100 years maximum).

Terraforming as a word doesn't imply any specific timescale, some people may be talking about impossibly low numbers but then again, they're not talking about reality but magictech from "scifi" stories that hardly ever have the science part included. Though, of course they like to talk about fast version - they would like to to be around and see it.

You're right that we can't reverse the changes we've wreaking upon Earth, but then again, causing global warming on Mars would not need to be reversed because it'd be the good thing there.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

Think about this for a moment. A great number of geology, physics, and biology studies could be done on Mars to learn more from a strictly scientific sense. However, we can't currently *get* those members of the scientific community anywhere near Mars. What are our options?

1. Spend trillions of dollars on one-shot "scientific" technologies that take scientists there and back.

2. Seed a few hundred million in the Technology sector and let them develop cheap space solutions according to their profit motive.

The former is a big problem from a political perspective. With plenty of bleeding heart "please help those without jobs/food" programs, how does pure science expect to compete? We're lucky that the government has invested the billions it has.

The later makes more sense. Invest the governmental equivalent to peanuts into the economy and you can help solve world hunger (more jobs) and do science on the cheap. It's a win-win situation.

And for the record, there's nothing wrong with public funding of libraries and schools. The capitalist system allows that just fine. It just doesn't require it.

Re:heh

[AKAImBatman]

The problem with Capitalism is that the government messes it up, if they stayed out eventually the market would be able to maintain itself. The free market is so warped and contorted because of the gov't trying to fix things, and then trying to fix what they messed up, etc.

You're talking about government regulation. That's a very different problem from economic incentives. Economic incentives encourage the free market. Regulations intentionally stifle the market.

It's a gamble, but the rewards are so great that many companies will invest resources for a cut.

Not if the risks are too great. Currently the aerospace industry is littered with companies who tried to sell cheap launch solutions. In every case politics ended up killing the company. If the government begins encouraging space travel (especially with new technology), investors and companies will feel that they finally have a chance to open up the market.

So we pay taxes, the goverment pays corps for the R & D (with taxes), the corps develop product X, and sell it to us (while we get to pay more taxes on it.)

You're forgetting something. We pay taxes, the government pays corps, the corps then hire expensive new specialists, then sell it back to us. The money that's in the new jobs created outweighs any amount initially seeded into the program. Not to mention that the economic upturn will allow investors (got a 401K?) to make more money in the stock market, and eventually encourage traditional companies to expand their markets. The expanding of existing markets will generate even more jobs. That's how trickle down economics work (and trust me, they do work).

Re:heh

[teetam]

Actually, Edmund Hillary did not say "because it is there". He said "Well, we knocked the bastard off !" It was George Mallory who said that, long before Hillary (and Tenzing Norgay, who white people always forget) climbed everest. Just FYI.

Re:heh

[mrogers]

Segway into GCNR rockets.

With all due respect, I think the surface of Mars is a little rough for a Segway.

Re:heh

[StarKruzr]

Xenobiology research would be a good start.

That rock we found in Antarctica (I think?) is awfully convincing evidence. It's never been conclusively proven but there's certainly nothing to disprove it yet and the evidence is extremely strong.

That or the fuel thing the other guy mentioned. Although the He-III just lying around on Luna's surface is a great reason to go there, too.

Then there's the prospecting ... um, prospects, to be found in the Asteroid Belt.

So there's plenty of good reasons. Personally I like Hillary's below-mentioned "because it's there," but that's probably just me.

Re:heh

[StarKruzr]

"It's a gamble, but the rewards are so great that many companies will invest resources for a cut."

No. They won't. They haven't, have they? And they've had decades to try.

Re:heh

[StarKruzr]

"It seems militias have gone the way of the dodo bird."

http://www.arng.army.mil/
http://www.ang.af.mil /

Re:heh

[duhjim]

The purpose of 'saying' that we intend to go to mars is to return to the moon with, as, AKAImBatMan suggests, a big enough nuclear power plant, when, ABRACADABRA, our friendly gang of leaders suddenly get a mind to drop a couple really large rocks, one named shock, the other named awe, down upon the evil ones who stand against us..... If i missed the part when we invited everyone, or even anyone, along with us, please ignore this stupid message and try to accept my shamefaced apologee. if i am repeating 50 other similar postings, my lame excuse is i that looked but didnt see them. i ask for mercy on my first post

Re:heh

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I didn't know National Guard was a militia. Thanks for letting me know. Do the states have control over them too?

Sivaram Velauthapillai

That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[addie]

It's just sitting there sulking.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[woodhouse]

Brain the size of a planet, and they have me looking at stones.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

It was about to drill into a martian "rock", which was really a martian animal sleeping. Nasa is not sure how to break the news to the public.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[madprof]

Scientists always tell us that where there is water, there is life.
And we all know that where there is life there are little green men.
So clearly Rover has been hijacked by them.

Or something.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[zoney_ie]

I agree.

Yet it's kinda cool this "what's going to appear today" thing. I hope Spirit gets up and running again - but hopefully Opportunity will land successfully and continue the stream of cool rock pics!

Someone should start a new TV station, Mars TV, with all the latest news from Mars at the top of the hour :o)

Even better, have NASA start one and ESA another and they can have a ratings war. (Our rocks are bigger, this dust is more bizarre, our pictures are now in 4D!!!)

Can ESA put up a Mars Express type probe in orbit of Earth? This is pretty cool data! Maybe they can search for traces of Kryptonite on Earth or something!

Seriously though - here's looking forward to the Venus Express probe being launched next year!

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it discovered water itself, unfortunately in the form of quicksand. That picture it took of what appeared to be mud? It was.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the AC got the reference. The point is that the Spirit Rover is hardly Marvin. I own a lawnmower with more "brains" than the Spirit Rover.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the AC didn't get the reference. I seriously was wondering what he was talking about.

I don't know anything about the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

At least now I know why the mods consider it funny :)

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[jcr]

No, it sank!

-jcr

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

NASA has a channel...at least they did when I was in college; it was one of the 15 channels that actually came in. Usually they just showed the Earth, which got boring after a while, but during the sojourner era, they had 24/7 feed from Mars. Not much went on, every once in a while the camera would move to the side. But it was still kind of cool

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know anything about the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

It's good fun. Pick it up and read sometimes.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[duhjim]

they forgot to waterproof rover and the poor dog ran straight into a big puddle and was soon frozen to the spot. no i don't know why ice melted just whwn it did, bad luck.

Re:That explains the mute Spirit Rover

[Syre]

I'm not sure why this "discovery" of water by Mars Express is getting so much press.

The U.S. Viking craft saw water really clearly back in the 70s, in the form of frost.

There are a number of photos, including this one, and this one.

The Viking 2 lander site was covered with frost for about 100 days per year.

Europe

[Tirel]

Europe can be proud of this mission: Mars Express is an enormous success for the European Space Programme.

Re:Europe

[Ateryx]

It is a sucess for the Euro Space Programme, although I haven't seen anyone note yet that in 2002 NASA discovered the exact same.

Re:Europe

[gerardlt]

Actually, I believe the NASA discovery was at the North pole, though I agree that this news is not very groundbreaking.

BTW, does anyone know how they identified the North/South poles? Was a compass sent there in a previous mission, or was it an arbitrary decision?

Re:Europe

[Phekko]

Hmph, this is so obvious. Even a child knows, that north is the one that is upwards in your map. Just look at any map of Mars and... Oh, never mind

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

"Perosonally, I think that the ESA has a serious case of American Wang Envy. Scratch that. The whole damn socialist European Union seems to have it. Why does every press release have to mention how they are doing it "better" than we Americans are..... Yeah sure."

Yeah, I reckon they have a bad case of bitterness, those Europeans like to read things into press releases that aren't actually on the page.

Re:Europe

[ahillen]

Why does every press release have to mention how they are doing it "better" than we Americans are...

The press release doesn't even mention the USA or NASA...

Re:Europe

[Jugalator]

... and now you're just as aggressively generalizing and attacking Europe. *sigh* Try to show some class and not yourself fall down to the levels of those you're attacking (or your impression of them).

All I can see is that they're very excited, happy and proud by the results, as they should be. These feelings are all positive ones and a sign that they're dedicated to the work they do. I seem to recall NASA engineers crying in joy when the Spirit sent back its first signals. I understand them, and I understand why ESA is very relieved by these achievements. They need all the success and publicity they can get, just like NASA, since space organizations like these are constantly fighting to not have their fundings lowered.

Re:Europe

[mikerich]

BTW, does anyone know how they identified the North/South poles? Was a compass sent there in a previous mission, or was it an arbitrary decision?

Mars' magnetic field is only a tiny fraction of that of Earth's and is actually dominated by regional poles rather than the strong magnetic poles on Earth. Mars does not appear to have a dynamic Core so its magnetic field is actually the one frozen into the planet when its hot interior solidified.

So a compass wouldn't be much help.

The answer is that the North Martian Pole is the one pointing in much the same way as the Earth's North Pole.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Europe

[bigdisk]

Considering that NASA already has color maps of all the water, this was non-news.

http://grs8.lpl.arizona.edu/latestresults.jsp

In usual ESA style, the completely failed to mention that.

Tim

Re:Europe

[TheCaptain]

Hrm...perhaps the moderators confused "insightful" and "inciteful" again.

Slashdot has seemingly always had a problem in that department, IMHO.

Re:Europe

[bigdisk]

Considering that NASA already has color maps of all the water, this was non-news.

http://grs8.lpl.arizona.edu/latestresults.jsp

Re:Europe

[canthusus]

It's not like the press release didn't rub everyone's faces in the fact it's European.

Why does every press release have to mention how they are doing it "better" than we Americans are.

Err, the only mention of Europe in the press release was the very last paragraph.. "Mrs Edelgard Bulmahn, German Minister for Research and Education, who is also chair of the ESA Council at ministerial level, said at the press conference: "Europe can be proud of this mission: Mars Express is an enormous success for the European space programme."

We are looking at the same press release, right? Because that quote doesn't seem to justify your assertion that ESA has a serious case of American Wang Envy

There is a place for Europe and the US and [insert name of country here] in space exploration. And justification in each country being proud of its successes, and congratulating the others on their successes.

If Mrs Bulmahn's comments offended you that much, then I apologise on her behalf, and on the behalf of The whole damn socialist European Union

Re:Europe

[gunnk]

Well, you can have two kinds of poles: geographic and magnetic.

Magnetic is the way your compass points. Planets do not have to have an appreciable magnetic field, so it is possible to have a planet without a magnetic north.

Geographic is based on the direction of a planet's spin. Here's one way to choose geographic north: the right-hand rule.

Stick out your right-hand like you are going to shake hands, but with your thumb pointing upwards. Now curl your fingers in towards your palm. If the curling of your fingers occurs in the same direction as the planet is spinning then north is in the direction of your thumb. If your fingers are curling opposite to the direction of the spin then your thumb is pointing south.

The right-hand rule is used a great deal in the world of physics.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm wrong, but are you referring to Mars Odyssee? That was in 2001. And it confirmed hydrogen in the southern polar cap. With all probability this equated to water So confirming water vapor is hardly "the exact same".
Not to mention the 2m resolution stereoscopic mapping of the whole planet.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

i'll fuck your sister up the ass and cum on her face, and she'll like it.

now hurry the hell up and get that white slut out here.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

So does that mean Venus' north is not the same "up" on the orbital plane as most of the other planets'?

Re:Europe

[dapyx]

Well, you can have two kinds of poles: geographic and magnetic. What about the people from Poland ?

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

insightful?. Tirel stole this quote from Mrs Edelgard Bulmahn, jeez rtfa

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

if you mods find that quote insightful then you might want to read the article, its a quote from it.

Re:Europe

[WIAKywbfatw]

We are looking at the same press release, right? Because that quote doesn't seem to justify your assertion that ESA has a serious case of American Wang Envy

There is a place for Europe and the US and [insert name of country here] in space exploration. And justification in each country being proud of its successes, and congratulating the others on their successes.

If Mrs Bulmahn's comments offended you that much, then I apologise on her behalf, and on the behalf of The whole damn socialist European Union

To hell with that, I say if you've got it then flaunt it!

Our wang's are bigger than your wangs! Nah, nah, na-nah, nah!

Seriously though, it's a pity that Beagle seems to have been lost for good. Mars Express may have proved the existance of water but Beagle would have been able to prove the existance of life.

Let's keep our finger's crossed that it eventually is found safe and sound and is still able to carry out its mission.

Re:Europe

[Dun Malg]

Why does every press release have to mention how they are doing it "better" than we Americans are...

The press release doesn't even mention the USA or NASA...

You must've not read all the way to the end. I quote the last paragraph:

Mrs Edelgard Bulmahn, German Minister for Research and Education, who is also chair of the ESA Council at Ministerial level, said at the press conference: "Europe can be proud of this mission: Mars Express is an enormous success for the European Space Programme. We rule! In your FACE, NASA! Your rover SUCKS! Who's laughing NOW!"

Re:Europe

[woodhouse]

It's probably not the most efficient way to obtain pretty wallpaper for my 2048x1024 desktop, but it's appreciated none the less.

Re:Europe

[brinch]

It is very sad to see, that the results of the current space exploration are always met by childish discussions of which space agency is better and more succesful.

I am quite sure that the the Mars Express team was very aware of the existing discoveries when they designed the instruments and that they by no means intend to steal the credit for the achievements of others.

However, when it comes to please the politicians who pays for the party, it can be necessary to wrap the results in glittering paper. Just try to watch CNN tomorrow night...

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Beagle would have been able to prove the existance of life.

Whatever you're smoking, I'll take two.

Re:Europe

[Haeleth]

I haven't seen anyone note yet that in 2002 NASA discovered the exact same.

No, they didn't. They demonstrated that it was very likely that water was present; the press at the time obviously played that up as "we've found water", but it was not proven. As recently as two or three months ago I remember reading articles about how what they found might not actually be water at all.

What the European mission has now done is proven beyond reasonable doubt that the hydrogen Nasa found is, as we thought, contained in water.

This is not pointless duplication of effort - it's a perfect example of two space agencies producing complementary work and building on each others' successes to further human knowledge.

And it's a crying shame that idiots in America and Europe alike - I'm speaking in general terms, not at you specifically - feel compelled to put down the other side's efforts and hype up their own.

This is science, not sport - everyone's on the same side here.

Re:Europe

[WIAKywbfatw]

OK, I perhaps could have put that better, but one of the major pluses that Beagle had over the other Martian explorers that are there right now is that it was the only one designed with the ability to prove or disprove the existance of live on Mars. (Microbial life, but life nonetheless.)

If you think I'm smoking something by saying this then perhaps you should read the mission specs.

Re:Europe

[Haeleth]

Seriously though, it's a pity that Beagle seems to have been lost for good. Mars Express may have proved the existance of water but Beagle would have been able to prove the existance of life.

Let's keep our finger's crossed that it eventually is found safe and sound and is still able to carry out its mission.

I think frankly we're going to have to give up on Beagle. It's a pity, but at least it's not a terribly expensive loss. It would be a greater setback if something turns out to be seriously wrong with Spirit as well, or if Opportunity doesn't land safely; I hope I speak for the majority of Europeans when I say I hope the American landers are both able to carry out their missions successfully.

Re:Europe

[Unregistered]

btw, as a buddy of mine learned the hard way on a test, your left hand gives you the opposite answers.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Lotta people seem to think science is a competitive sport these days. Its nice to see space agencies working together. Space is too big too be handled alone and its in everyones mutual interest to find another planet capable of sustaining life. If Mars has water it might not be up for the job, but it could be a great launching point for other missions further out. Spose it all depends how much water and if they can build the machine they did in "The Core" haha. Seriously, has anyone speculated if Mars ever had a molten core, if so, why would it stop and freeze over?

Re:Europe

[G. W. Bush Junior]

So if we had a pole inversion, the north magnetic pole of earth would finally be at the geographical northpole... except for all the other problems associated with pole inversions that would be kinda practical. ;-)

Re:Europe

[Urkki]

• or disprove the existance of live on Mars

Sorry to be a pedantic, but that's something you really can't disprove beyond reasonable doubt until we have pretty much combed all different areas of the planet surface, and under it to quite a depth. Conclusively proving that there's never been no life on Mars will not happend in a long long time yet. And we can never be absolutely sure there's been no life ever. Perhaps life appeared in one small pool of water which then dried out abefore it could spread, and then any organic remains got destroyed by a volcano or a metor impact, or whatever).

Of course if there has been life (which I personally think is unlikely, but anyway), proving it is much simpler, you just need to find one reliable sample of it :-)

Re:Europe

[WIAKywbfatw]

Well, I realise that, but I was trying to provide a simple answer that the AC who couldn't be bothered to either log in or research Beagle's mission would understand.

If I could have, I would have put it in words of two syllables or less as complex concepts such as searching for life seemed to be beyond his comprehension. He was quick to reply with a pedantic comment, not so quick to apply logic to what he was actually replying to.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

>Why does every press release have to mention how they are doing it "better" than we Americans are?

Because we in the USA have made that the de facto standard for any press release. A better question might be "Why do Americans assume that when someone mentions another country, they are implicitly slamming the US?"

Seriously, all that flag-waving going on, and you read in the paper that Americans get upset when they see Canadians wearing maple leaf shirts. I suspect that subconsciously the Americans realize that all of the bluster and bravado really don't amount to much. Anyone with more than three neurons in their head must realize on some level that America is a parody of itself... if I was from another country I would make every effort to make sure people knew I wasn't from the US.

You treat global identity like a big football game, and root for 'our side', regardless of merit. And that's just sad.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn the vast Right-Handed Conspiracy of Scientists! Damn them!

Disenfranchished Left-Handed Scientist

Re:Europe

[multi io]

IMHO the "north pole" of a planet is defined to be the geographic pole of that planet that "points" to the same side of the ecliptic plane as earth's north pole.

That doesn't work too well for Uranus though...

Re:Europe

[RiscIt]

...If the planet you're on is not spinning, Then stop playing with your fingers and hold to something - You're about to go for one hell of a ride.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Lotta people seem to think science is a competitive sport these days.

As someone who works in science, I can tell you, the Lottas are right. I agree it shouldn't be that way, but competition in science is nasty and mean more often than not. Don't get me started on the backstabing.

Re:Europe

[comedian23]

>There is a place for Europe and the US and [insert name of country here] in space exploration.

No way. It is far too crowded in Space for more than one country. Stop trying to take our valuable Space you damn Euros. I claim for the U.S. everything above 70,000ft( 21,000M ). If you want a Space, go get your own!!!

P.S. Please send the U.S. a check for your Sun usage, made payable to "The United States of America(Department of Universal Energy)". Oh yeah, and we will access a small service charge for use of the stars and the Moon too.

Thank you.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. NRA is just upset because the "Socialist's" where the first to enter the space age, and still have a system for human space transportaion that still works ......

Re:Europe

[WindBourne]

All of NASA's evidence was indirect. ESA's is the first direct proof and qualitative amount of ice (one pole has more than the other).

Re:Europe

[crumley]

I always thought that the right handed rule gave an advantage to lefties. Lefties can be figuring out the direction with their right hand while they are writing with their left.

Of course lefties are put at a disadvantage in so many other ways that it is only fair that one ocassionally rolls their way.

Re:Europe

[WindBourne]

I agree. I worked at CDC in 1981 and I was all too aware of all the AIDS studies(prior to it being even acknowledged by the presidency). It was interesting to watch all the garbage that transpired between NIH, CDC, and France. Truely nasty.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps a geologist here could explain this to me:

Mars doesn't appear to have a magnetic field. This would imply that it doesn't have an iron core. This would further imply that it wasn't differentiated early in it history (much of it melted so that light stuff rises and heavy stuff like iron falls to the core). But at the same time we are finding silicates (like the olivine find). Since silicates are light, and as far as at least the Earth is concerned, rare (except in the crust where they are extremely abundant), it doesn't really make sense to find them on the surface of Mars unless it was partially differentiated (the carbonates found also fall into this area). Any takers?

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

The magnetic pole of the Earth flips roughly every 50 million years. Geophysicists use this data to find the rate of plate spreading in the past (since a closely analyzed sample can tell exactly when the poles flipped, since it occured over the entire planet, and since when iron bearing minerals solidify from mid ocean trenches, they will align in the direction of the pole).

Re:Europe

[Tusaki]

Erhm, how else should he put it then?

"Yep. we found water."?

I think no matter how he put it, you could still add the "In your FACE.. etc" part to it and make it sound like he was a little child happy he apparently was better at something than a friend.

The way I read it, he's just congratulating the team for doing what it's paid to do and perhaps putting it this way will increase the likelihood that more funds will be granted to ESA. (Which is a good thing)

I find it funny how you find hidden motives and words where there clearly are none. Yes, perhaps some Europeans might think this way, as might some Americans when Beagle failed. The way I see it this is silly and I just want more space exploration, no matter who does it. (C'mon Japan! C'mon China!) Also I believe that the people who actually work at these missions (at NASA and ESA) do feel some competitiveness, but are mature enough to just congratulate the other when a mission succeeds because the outcome of the missions is more important than who has accomplished them.

just my 2cts.

Re:Europe

[Tusaki]

ok ok. it was funny. I misread the post :)
>sorry

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

This is above link shows *indirect evidence*. The Mars Express proved the presence of water in a completely different but direct way.

Sure you don't hear NASA admitting this great feat of direct evidence.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

But Mars does have iron in its core. Or at least it is thought to: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronom y/planets/mars/

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither did last night's chili. Hooboy!

Re:Europe

[Michael Bennett Cohn]

This method indicates that north is in the sky directly above me.

Stick out your right-hand like you are going to shake hands, but with your thumb pointing upwards. Now curl your fingers in towards your palm. If the curling of your fingers occurs in the same direction as the planet is spinning then north is in the direction of your thumb. If your fingers are curling opposite to the direction of the spin then your thumb is pointing south.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

You're sick, man, just SICK!

...my pubes were in that chili.

Re:Europe

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

People on slashdot have a serious problem with humour--not you. I can't believe some people thought this was real. When was the last time any scientist ever said "in your face", "your rover sucks", "we rule", etc?

Slashdot readers need to get some education on humour :)

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Europe

[utahjazz]

BTW, does anyone know how they identified the North/South poles?

Yeah, the North Pole is up, the South is down. Duh.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems you've got it backwards. You're obviously the one with envy. Why can't another country be proud of their achievments without Americans like yourself getting all pouty? Why can't you be happy for their success? Answer: Because your a self-centerted, solopistic jerk.

Re:Europe

[The Cydonian]

The right-hand rule is used a great deal in the world of physics.

Yeah, but don't let that stop you from learning cross product in vectors, otherwise you'll end up twisting your palm horribly in the final exams.

From,
A Victim of a Cross Product Accident, in 1998.

Re:Europe

[JuggleGeek]

in 2002 NASA discovered the exact same.

So, I see you're still getting your news from Baghdad Bob.

Why do people make up obvious lies? Do they think that by posting nonsense on Slashdot that everyone will believe them? (I guess someone did - it got modded up.)

Landers

[Ilex]

Any chance it can confirm the location of our missing landers?

Re:Landers

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the story, they are getting a signal, and I doubt that a lander can repair another, cause that'd be considered proactive thinking.

Re:Landers

[MellowTigger]

I don't think the parent question was intended to be funny. I think it's a serious question. I will rephrase:

These new probe imagers have impressive resolution. Any chance that they can be used to identify lost landers and determine what happened to them? It might be useful to somebody to know if a lander ended up in one big piece or thousands of smaller pieces.

Re:Landers

[grub]

The missing landers have already been brought underground for reverse engineering by the natives. They want insight into the invaders.

Re:Landers

[Ilex]

Actually it was intended to be funny. It's just my sceptical sense of humour.

Re:Landers

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a picture taken by Mars Express that shows the center of the Gusev Crater, the crosshair marking the landing site of Spirit.

But I dunno, the crosshair makes it kinda look like a bombing run... hmmmmm...

Re:Landers

[magpie]

Naw, we too busy trying to find the hole our lander fell down.

Re:Landers

[Anonymous Coward]

No. They have good resolution, but THAT good. Teh size landers we're sending now would be like one pixel if visible at all - you'd probably never find it, and if you did it wouldn't tell you anything useful.

Re:Landers

[FrostedWheat]

Actually .... yes :)

Free Shrimp!!

[SwissCheese]

Sweet, so when do I get my free shrimp?!?

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[SwissCheese]

How is this offtopic? If you bother to read the link it says I get a free shrimp if it is conclusively proven there is water on mars.

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[jea6]

You don't. The promo is only if the Mars Exploration Rover finds it. And it's pretty far away from the martian south pole.

Long John Silver's announced today that it will give America free Giant Shrimp if NASA's Mars Exploration Rover project finds conclusive evidence of an ocean on Mars by February 29, 2004. The out-of-this-world offer from the world's most popular seafood chain celebrates NASA's efforts to find traces of ocean water - and possibly, evidence of life - on Mars.

Besides, this is one of those times you should seriously consider just saying no.

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[Armitage72]

Long John Silver's announced today that it will give America free Giant Shrimp if NASA's Mars Exploration Rover project finds conclusive evidence of an ocean on Mars by February 29, 2004

It wasn't NASA and it wasn't the rover that found it. You still have time though.

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[Saint Aardvark]

Wow...that offer could be right out of Heinlein. Shame he's not around...I think he'd like the little interludes like this as much as the exploration itself.

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[Hawkxor]

So that's why the Rover isn't responding - it fell into a gigantic ocean! Free Shrimp for all!

But seriously, who does LJS think they're kidding? What are the chances that the Mars Rover would find an Earth-sized ocean? The most stupid thing I have ever heard. In the past few minutes, anyway.

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[CrazyTalk]

Hmm Nice publicity stunt, but I didnt see any mention of an ocean existing in the past. Clearly, there is not a large body of liquid water currently existing on Mars. No shrimp for you!

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[Zerbey]

Oh great, so if they find water on mars I can look forward to spending the day in the hospital

(I'm very allergic to seafood)

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[mark2003]

How do you have a giant shrimp?

Is that like an extra large small?

Re:Free Shrimp!!

[soft_guy]

But you can always *buy* some shrimp at LJS to drown your sorrows (pun intended.)

Crap

[l0wland]

So Spirit tripped and drowned in a puddle of mud?

But of course...

[bc90021]

...we're all still waiting for confirmation of bacteria and/or bacteria fossils. I certainly hope that NASA can establish good contact with Spirit again soon, and that Opportunity lands safely tomorrow!

Re:But of course...

[mbrod]

Been hard to find any articles on how things are going but a USA Today article had these two tidbits I found informative -

In effect, scientists said, the computer onboard is sensing a problem or problems and repeatedly trying to reboot -- about 60 times since Wednesday. The problem could be in software or hardware, Theisinger said.

Early Thursday, NASA initially heard nothing from Spirit that would indicate it was in "fault mode," a state that the rover enters by itself when it has experienced a problem. Later, NASA sent a command to Spirit as if it were in fault mode, anyway. Spirit acknowledged with a beep that it received the command, indicating an onboard problem. That puzzled engineers.

Yeah, so?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I have a 1968 text book about Mars that goes into detail how water ice was discovered on Mars via earth based telescopes many years ago. Not to mention that other spacecraft have mapped water in the southern polar cap.

Is this really news?

[loconet]

Correct me if im wrong but didnt we already know there was frozen Water in mars? Isn't what we're looking for liquid water or the indication that there was once liquid water? Is this frozen water in a melted state somewhere else in the planet ..that would be interesting?

Re:Is this really news?

[Troed]

It has been confirmed on the north pole before, but not the south. That's why it's news.

Re:Is this really news?

[Skye16]

no, we knew that there was frozen carbon dioxide on mars (dry ice), but not water ice. we've believed there has been water on the planet at some point due to certain geographical and geological reasons (the way some of the rocks are pointing the same direction, the "canals", etc, etc), but we don't know for sure that there actually was water on the planet.

Re:Is this really news?

[dsoltesz]

Actually Mars Global Surveyor and Mars Odyssey have found water ice near the southern polar cap, I'll have to check on the ice situation regarding the northern cap. I'm not sure what specific thing the Mars Express orbiter folks are looking for, but one of the goals of the MER rovers is evidence that there was liquid water.

Re:Is this really news?

[Anonymous Coward]

All the water on mars was mapped a year ago:

http://grs8.lpl.arizona.edu/latestresults.jsp

This is a complete non-story.

Re:Is this really news?

[the endless]

Is this frozen water in a melted state

That would be water then...

Re:Is this really news?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a picture that shows a canyon that supposedly was formed by an ancient river. They say the black stuff at the bottom of the canyon is sediment, brought there by flowing water. So apparantly there actually was liquid water running in rivers at some point in mars' history - and that is the news. As usual, the interesting parts were obmitted for the /. writeup..

Re:Is this really news?

[drinkypoo]

We also knew that there was a shitload of hydrogen bound up in a polar cap somehow. While not conclusive on its own, it strongly suggested water ice. Lo and behold...

Re:Is this really news?

[JuggleGeek]

Plus 5 informative, yet completely false.

Apparently I need to go someplace with fewer idiots.

Re:Is this really news?

[Troed]

It's not false, and ESA is a good source for that.

WWater on Mars w00t!

[tr0llb4rt0]

Now I only need to ship out hop plants to set up my Martian Brewery!

Re:WWater on Mars w00t!

[l0wland]

And meanwhile we all will wonder what color you beer will have...

Water in the form of ice? no shit!

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be, those huge white area's around the pole's we've been looking at for how many years?
wasnt the north pole ice and the bottom pole c02?
how the hell is this news, i mean total recall proved they had lots of ice.
now if the orbiting probe can find giant alien ice-melters and 3-breasted martians, we've got a breakthrough!

Re:Water in the form of ice? no shit!

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

and 3-breasted martians, we've got a breakthrough!

Dude, they talk about mars. There are no women on mars, only on Venus.

Re:Water in the form of ice? no shit!

[ronaldb64]

Dude, they talk about mars. There are no women on mars, only on Venus.

That would be Barsoom, not Mars, thank you. And there definately are some women there.

What? Edgar Rice Burrough wrote fiction??? Hmm. Never mind then.

Lowell said that 120 years ago

[peter303]

When he saw the water channels on Mars, later confirmed by the orbiters.

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[whoda]

Thats the problem, the channels have not been proven to be created by water.
That is just our best explanation.

Everyone knows there is frozen water on Mars, but, was it ever liquid and did it have any chemicals that could sustain our version of 'life', is the real question.

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[Fishstick]

>When he saw the water channels on Mars

thought it was canals that he thought he saw. Sure, channels would mean the presense of water, but _canals_ would mean the presence of intelligent life.

Unfortunately, Lowell's descriptions were flawed. Slipher's methods were not sensitive enough to detect atmospheric water vapor. Contemporary astronomers Antoniadi and Hale disputed the geometrical patterns that he termed canals, and few believed them to be waterways.

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[VanillaCoke420]

He did probably not see the channels he thought he saw, but I'm not sure. I've heard different stories on that one. Anyway, are the riverbeds visible through a telescope of the size that Lowell used?

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[AndroidCat]

He also said that he saw spokes on Venus (There is a theory that he was seeing the blood vessels at the back of his own eye.)

Of course, it was probably the Venusian railway network where Elron Hubbard claimed he was almost hit by a train...

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[CuriHP]

The whole canals thing actually originated from a mistranslation. They were originally described as canali by I believe an Italian astronomer. The word means channels not canals but was mistranslated by several people.

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[lxs]

Lovell saw giant structures, that covered half of the mars disc as seen from earth. He thought these structures were channels, but they turned out to be nothing more than light and dark patches on the surface enhanced by his imagination, which is why he was the only one to see them.

In the 70's we sent probes to mars, and we did find ancient water (or other liquid) ways. Now we're fairly certain that those are created by water. These are too small to see from earth.

So Lovell could never have seen those channels. He was either a visionary or a lucky guesser.

In the same vein, Dutch astronomer and Physicist Christiaan Huygens predicted that Jupiter had enormous hemp plantations, since he thought he could see oceans, which would mean a thriving Iovian shipping industry and a great demand for rope. As far as I know, this hypothesis is still untested :)

Re:Lowell said that 120 years ago

[3waygeek]

The Straight Dope on Martian canals.

750 bytes

[geschild]

10 minutes at 10 bits/s, I wonder what was important enough to spent those bytes on...

If Nasa-geeks are anything like other geeks, it must've been either martian porn or nethack I guess. The former being more likely. ;-)

Re:750 bytes

[Orion442]

A little more than that...
The flight team for NASA's Spirit received data from the rover in a communication session that began at 13:26 Universal Time (5:26 a.m. PST) and lasted 20 minutes at a data rate of 120 bits per second.

Re:750 bytes

[cperciva]

Given that this response came after they uploaded new code to help them track down the problems, I'm guessing that the data received back included the string "HELLO WORLD".

Which is unusually appropriate in this case, actually...

Re:750 bytes

[ThogScully]

That only accounts for 88 bytes.
-N

Re:750 bytes

[amabbi]

according to the latest on NASA's marsrover webpage, an additional communication session of ~20 minutes occurred with transmission at 120 bits/sec... hopefully this information will help determine what happened to the Spirit rover 2 days ago...

Re:750 bytes

[AndroidCat]

I wonder what was important enough to spent those bytes on...

At a guess, "ping water.mars"?

Re:750 bytes

[geschild]

At least 18KB is something to work with. I'm sure it'll go a long way in getting at least one complete picture of a nude Martian female, even if it is only a low res jpg... (see grand-parent).

(smile, it's supposed to be funny.)

Re:750 bytes

[babbage]

To be "pluralistic", maybe they used Unicode.

To be "modern", maybe they used XML.

That'll account for more than 88 bytes... :-)

Re:750 bytes

[RustyTaco]

If Nasa-geeks are anything like other geeks, it must've been either martian porn or nethack I guess. The former being more likely. ;-)

Hello! McFly! What do you think the MERs are beyond government funded Martian voyeur cams! The whole thing is a massive peep show. If they were getting their Martian porn they wouldn't be worried :)

- RustyTaco

Re:750 bytes

[merphle]

NASA spent $410 million on Spirit, and couldn't even afford a $20 56k modem?

Nah, the martians...

[purduephotog]

...jacked it up, stripped the wheels off, yanked the speakers, stole the sundial, and pulled the wires out of the highgain antenna in orderd to set a record for wireless 802.11 transmission.

Re:Nah, the martians...

[Anonymous Coward]

the martians jacked it up, stripped the wheels off, yanked the speakers, stole the sundial, and pulled the wires out of the highgain antenna in orderd to set a record for wireless 802.11 transmission.

What kind of gansta thug/geek hybrid do you think aliens are?

Re:Nah, the martians...

[beacher]

And you can hear him saying .... "At last, after 2000 years of work, the Illudiom "Pew36" Explosive Space Modulator".
Yeah the martians got it alright....

Lot of work for water

[phlack]

Wouldn't sending Spirit up with a divining rod been easier?

Interesting, so ....

[ozric99]

... how are they going to get the bottling plant up there?

Re:Interesting, so ....

[Bender Unit 22]

I don't know, but it at utmost importance to make Mars bottled water the next hot thing. It's the ultimate nail in the coffin of French water export. And not a moment too soon, I might add. :D

Help

[savagedome]

Can we ask Mars Express to take a walk to the other side and let the Spirit Rover take a sip or two from its water bottle? You know, it kinda gets hot during the day there and the rover is tired.

Re:Help

[snake_dad]

Umm... it's an orbiter. Maybe it could drop some propellant.

Water

[garglblaster]

Well, honestly, I would be more than surprised if there is _NO_ water on Mars than the other way around..

Let's think about it: Water is Hydrogen Oxide -
and Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.
So if you've got some Oxygen somewhere you're most likely to get some water then (bang!)

Re:Water

[Theatetus]

So if you've got some Oxygen somewhere you're most likely to get some water then (bang!)

Actually you get the (bang!) first. Then, after the massive explosion, you have a lot of water scattered everywhere.

Re:Water

[wwest4]

close enough.

water would boil on mars given the pressure and daily temperatures.

Scientific point of view

[MountainMan101]

As a scientist, although I find it very interesting that they have "discovered" water on Mars, I do no think it is the ground breaking discovery that it has been played up as.

From the geological appearance water was always expected, Hydrogen and Oxygen are both abundant enough (in the early history of Mars - not in the atmosphere at the moment). H2O is the thermodynamic result.

Although the absence of water would almost certainly have procluded the existance of "life" on Mars, the existance of water is not, in itself, that startling a discovery.

It is important that scientific funding goes towards real science and not satisfying the public demand for fantastic revelations!

Finally, well done ESA for building a spectrometer that accurate, and getting it there :-)

Re:Scientific point of view

[tobe]

I'd actually argue that as long as 5-10% of science funding goes towards feeding the public fantastic 'revelations' then the absolute size of the other 90% is far more likely to become and stay large.

Giving the public something to capture their imaginations is a far lesser crime than allowing the majority of science resource in this day and age (admittedly not public money) to be frittered away on 'curing' dandruff, limp hair and stubborn stains.

Centralised, organised world research council. NOW !!

Re:Scientific point of view

[AbbyNormal]

Yeah, I am not a Scientist (I just play one on Tv...jk), but I think this is becomming a "Tag-Team" publicity show between NASA and European Space Agency. I mean them no disrespect, as they both have accomplished a tremendous amount and are trying to garner the interest of space in younger generations, but it seems a little "fake" to me as an adult.

I mean, like the parent poster explained, water was always expected and to some extents already discovered. A good read can be found at:
here

Re:Scientific point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

"Finally, well done ESA for building a spectrometer that accurate, and getting it there :-)"

It's bloody impressive. I couldn't have done it. I couldn't even win the X prize. I just hope they have space tourism to Mars before I die and that in the meantime I can save up enough money for the ticket.

Re:Scientific point of view

[Jugalator]

Yes, but you need to think like a scientist. :-)

Anything not proven beyond doubt is just one among many theories.

Re:Scientific point of view

[tobe]

They have to play the PR game to bolster public support for their publicly provided revenue.

I mean.. they've got to compete with a public who might rather see their tax dollars spent on cool bombs and stuff with cameras in the nose so they can watch people die on the 6'o'clock than stuff which might actually lead to the discovery of life on other planets.

Re:Scientific point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

It is easy to speculate, but to proof something beyond any doubt is another matter. ESA's first mission to Mars has been very successful in actually proving something: There is water on Mars. This is completely different from saying, "we think there is water on MARS." Anyone can think, but not anyone can proof something :)

Re:Scientific point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

Well Mr "scientist", I suppose there's a difference between "unproven speculation" and "discovery" ...

so long
Fry

Re:Scientific point of view

[linuxelf]

Likewise when we discovered Pluto, it wasn't that big a deal since mathematically, we already knew it had to be there.

Re:Scientific point of view

[sniggly]

Explain to me how the ESA press release is playing this up as a ground breaking discovery?

Besides, the discovery of water on Mars is the single most important discovery in terms of what it will allow us to do in the future. Even if primitive life was discovered the presence of water is a greater discovery because of its engineering potential.

Re:Scientific point of view

[comedian23]

We can't base future manned missions on the theory that water should be there. As a scientist you should know that until it's proven empirically you can't assume it is there.

Yes, this comes as no suprise to anyone, but it is still very valuable knowledge.

Imagine what would happen if we sent people their with plant seeds, planning to use the martian water to grow the plants to provide food. They get millions of miles away from earth and then, oh shit, that white stuff we saw from space wasn't frozen water, it was dry ice. Oh damn, let's hop back in the interplanetary shuttle and go back to the Earth for a few gallons of H2O.

The point is that every single thing we can find on Mars that we can use is one less thing we have to take with us(hence cheaper).

-Comedian

Re:Scientific point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

It is important that scientific funding goes towards real science and not satisfying the public demand for fantastic revelations!

Bullshit. It's the public's money and they can spend it any way they damn well please. Stop whining you're not getting enough free money. Fund your own God Damned research if you think it's so important.

Re:Scientific point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, like the parent poster explained, water was always expected and to some extents already discovered. A good read can be found at:
here [nasa.gov]

Man dont even dare to compare that image on the article you posted with this one.

Your position should only be to acknowledge the fact and give the proper credit for the achievement. Or else it sounds its like you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. I can argue either theres was no need for NASA to say there was water once in a time before. Because for centuries, even before America was known ppl, Copernicus, Galileo, et all middle-age astronomists, were already saying what NASA said last year.

"probably there was life (or water for that matter) on mars"

now you have the proves, atleast visual ones, so just render to the facts.

Nice news...

[hookedup]

Great! So we found water on mars. Now that this mystery is over, I think it's time for some real scientific work.

Send the rover to the 'mars face'.

Re:Nice news...

[Anonymous Coward]

And after that, we can send a mission to the lesser known, but equally significant, butt on Venus.

AC
"Your people were instruction manuals?"
-- Zim ("Invader Zim")

Re:Nice news...

[sniggly]

The face was one of the first targets for Mars Global Surveyor. Too bad it just looked like a face.

Re:Nice news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean butt on Mercury?

"Ah... you can still smell the monkey"
Agent Dark Booty - Invader Zim

Well...

[mirko]

Actually, I prefer my whisky when it's dry, it's nice to have been that far to find me some fresh and pure water but I just didn't need it. :)

Re:Well...

[Walkiry]

There seems to be some dry ice there too, so don't worry about it.

How is this offtopic?

[Theatetus]

LJS is offering free shrimp if they discover an ocean on Mars. This isn't off-topic, o ye fascist mods!

Re: How would it react to wind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at photos of the Spirit, what with it's flat platform on top..... They landed this thing in an area known to have alot of wind (and in their words, has alot of "dust devils" and little twisters). How in the heck can a little rover like that keep from flipping over from strong gusts of wind?? It's designed in a way that it would easily flip over....

I bet that's what happened...

-------
play game @ www.lilgames.com

Discovery may indicate life...

[gerardlt]

Scientists confirm that what they've found is mostly water. They were quite surprised to see that the water was held in bags. Quite ugly bags.

They continue to speculate what the discovery might mean, and whether life may be possible in this environment...

JPL has an update: 20min data session rcat 0830EST

[TheOldCrow]

Looks like some telemetry was just received from Spirit:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2004/30.cfm

hmmm...

[rogabean]

You know as of late it seems to me that NASA is just feeding us every little finding in morsel form. It feels like we are being baited with a carrot. This whole "we found water" thing is no exception. We go from hearing next to nothing to now hearing something "new" just about everyday. I understand they are grasping to get the American public "excited" once more about space exploration, but still. Water does not excite me.

Re:hmmm...

[tobe]

It was actually the ESA that released this data... and it's actually a very big deal.

Re:hmmm...

[epexegesis]

Er, this is ESA. Anyway, the reports I heard on radio had people saying (more or less): "This isn't surprising, just confirmation of expectation". Still cool though.

Re:hmmm...

[rogabean]

ok this ESA. I'm just not excited anymore with all these little findings.

Re:hmmm...

[PhuCknuT]

We go from hearing next to nothing to now hearing something "new" just about everyday.

I wonder if that would have something to do with the fact that both missions from both NASA and the ESA just reached mars and a 3rd will be there saturday. What a coincidence that nasa would start releasing info at a time like that! BTW, it was the ESA's mission that proved there's water, not nasa.

Re:hmmm...

[mikerich]

Er, this is ESA. Anyway, the reports I heard on radio had people saying (more or less): "This isn't surprising, just confirmation of expectation". Still cool though.

Agreed, this is more of a calibration of the instrumentation which will allow them to search for water at lower latitudes on Mars where it might be found as permafrost, frozen pools or bound between mineral grains.

But the images are certainly very pretty.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:hmmm...

[matthew.thompson]

Nice theory. Shame Mars Express found the water and is ESA's baby and not NASA's. In case you'd forgotten both the European and American's Space Agencies have current Mars missions - and ESA's is far more than Beagle 2.

Re:hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

To speculate is easy, to proof is another. ESA proved there is water on Mars, and kept their mouths shut on speculations and other non-rigorous behaviour towards science. Let's face it, hardcore science has been done here to rigorously show that water exists on Mars. Ok, now that we know for a 100% that there is water, what will we do next? Anyone?

Re:hmmm...

[kwan3217]

I didn't read the article, but I am sure the ESA scientists are reporting that their observations confirm those made by Mars Odyssey over a year ago.

So what if Mars Express wasn't the first instrument to discover martian water? It is important to independently verify observations, and ESA did so. An independent organization with a completely different kind of instrument reporting the same findings pretty much nails down the fact that the water is there.

Re:hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

just wait until we get the pictures of the secret nazi martian base!!1

Really you don't have to pay attention to things that don't interest you. Having evidence of water on mars is one of the greatest discoveries of all time. Still it doesn't excite you. Well thats just fine.

Re: How would it react to wind?

[addie]

Err... not so much little. The rover is the size of a compact car, roughly 5 ft tall if I remember correctly. I wouldn't worry about it flipping.

Please

[Orion442]

Everybody knows Chewbacca was a Crip

Re:Please

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody knows Chewbacca was a Crip

Chewbacca will put a cap in yo azz, and then pimp your girlfiend out while rollin' on 22's. Chewbacca's a killa, a playa, and my nigga (I can say that cuz I'm black, like chewbacca).

Re:Please

[Shaklee39]

Crip=Crippled, Cryp=Gangster

Re:Please

[Anonymous Coward]

Shaklee39=StupidFuck

Bong water!

[j-turkey]

Well -- now that I know I can fill my bong up there, I might just consider participating in the first colony. ;0

More recent "successful" attempt......

[nbehary]

is here: It still doesn't seem to be fully operational.

Re:More recent "successful" attempt......

[LittleGuy]

On another note, NASA has gotten some sort of signal from Spirit, but it's still not *fully functional*.

Paging Tasha Yar......

Re:More recent "successful" attempt......

[kin_korn_karn]

yeah, Spirit keeps saying something that sounds like "V-Ger requires the information".. nobody can figure out what it means

Is Spirit Waterproof?

[stuffduff]

I wonder if there is enough vapor to form condensation and potential short circuts where dust might accumulate in microscopically damp areas. Other concerns include areas of unusually high magnetic activity where magnetized iron bearing minerals might form accidential circuts. Or the possibility of static discharges, like mini lightening.

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of what the rovers are designed to deal with?

It may be time to return to a soft landing strategy.

Re:Is Spirit Waterproof?

[WormholeFiend]

well it s a pretty well known fact that Mars is very dusty...

so if the Spirit's builders didnt ***at the very least*** make the rover dust-proof, they were pretty stupid.

Re:Is Spirit Waterproof?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. The rover is metal, shaded by the solar panels, and the atmosphere is at saturation for water, on damp ground. It will drop below freezing before the ground, so it will gather more frost. The soil analyses show evidence (much evidence) of mineral deposits from water evaporating at the surface.

Whether they have the electronics waterproofed or not, I don't know. I suspect it would take some days for enough moisture to build up inside the rover to cause the problem - just like what happened.

MOD PARENT UP

[strags]

I was about to post the same link - glad I didn't. Jeez.

Freaking hilarious

[way2trivial]

I wonder how much the insurance policy 'cost' them.. 5 million kilometers indeed...

I'm curious...

[mark-t]

We've seen several photos now of the vicinity of the nasa lander, but I've been wondering... what does the area reallya look like at night? Do its moons reflect enough light for detail in nearby objects to be discernable, or is everything just cast in shadow?

Moderation: -0.66 Mildly Off-Topic

Re:I'm curious...

[A55M0NKEY]

Me too, and can you see Earth? What color is it when viewed all the way from Marz?

Re:I'm curious...

[Anonymous Coward]

From Mars, Earth looks like a pale blue star. Sort of like how, from Earth, Mars looks like a pale red star.

Re:I'm curious...

[NeuroManson]

Probably not. Deimos and Phobos are fairly small (and considered by some as asteroids that were captured in Mars orbit).

I'd wager that at night, you have almost perfect conditions for astronomy, that Earth and Venus appear to be bright stars that travel across the night sky roughly 1/2 the speed that Mars travels through ours. Jupiter (or is it Saturn? I always mix those two up) is a very bright and large star.

Re:I'm curious...

[CaptainAlbert]

Do its moons reflect enough light for detail in nearby objects to be discernable, or is everything just cast in shadow?

Unlikely. Phobos and Deimos are tiny, and orbit very fast, very close to the surface of Mars. They can't even be seen from all points of the Martian surface. I'm guessing that in the Martian night-time, if they pass overhead they're entirely in Mars's shadow and thus cast no light. I think they're only visible at dawn and at dusk, under certain lucky conditions.

What I'd love to see it some photos of the night sky. I've always wanted to see the same constellations from a planet other than Earth. Dunno why, just seems significant to me.

Re:I'm curious...

[snake_dad]

You could send a message to the team requesting a long exposure navcam or pancam image taken during Martian nighttime. Maybe they'll even do it too.. "NASA Shows First Night Image From Mars"..

Re:I'm curious...

[AndroidCat]

I've always wanted to see the same constellations from a planet other than Earth. Dunno why, just seems significant to me.

For fun, you could always take a trip to the opposite latitude (north/south) on Earth. The Moon will be the right angle in the sky, but upside-down and going backwards. Most of the constellations will be different and the ones that aren't will be upside-down.

I don't know about you, but I'd hold on to something solid before looking up.

Re:I'm curious...

[Fr33z0r]

I could be wrong, but I think you're probably in for a long wait - I've tried snapping the sky from here with a 3 megapixel camera and it's a waste of time, even with very long exposures, the resolution of the cameras they've got up there sucks even more so if you want to see the sky as spirit sees it just open paint, and do a pure black flood-fill :D

If you haven't seen it already, here's a picture of the Earth and Jupiter taken by the MOC, it's a *bit* of a cheat, but still a beautiful picture, and probably the closest thing humanity has to your dream of a alien starscape (which I agree would be a fantastic, but slightly bland picture :)

Re:I'm curious...

[dillon_rinker]

Hey, I can see my house from up here!

Re:I'm curious...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they're a bit busy trying to unfsck their advanced golf cart.

Re:I'm curious...

[curtisk]

What I'd love to see it some photos of the night sky. I've always wanted to see the same constellations from a planet other than Earth. Dunno why, just seems significant to me.

to take that a step further, have a decent telescope sent up that can gaze from there and transmit images back to us, getting 35 million miles more sight could be interesting

Re:I'm curious...

[Abcd1234]

Actually, you're wrong in a couple places, here.

1) "I've tried snapping the sky from here with a 3 megapixel camera and it's a waste of time, even with very long exposures"

This would seem to disprove your theory.

2) "the resolution of the cameras they've got up there sucks even more so"

This is quite wrong. Spirit's camera has a 1 megapixel CCD, which may seem small. But it's a 1 megapixel *B&W* CCD, meaning no filters. By contrast, the 4 megapixel CCD on your average camera has filters which are used to detect red, green, and blue (plus one extra green filter, I think). These four inputs are then combined to form the final output pixel. As a result, a 4 megapixel colour CCD (as they are produced today) has an effective resolution equivalent to a 1 megapixel B&W CCD. Moreover, most B&W CCDs have a much lower signal-to-noise ratio, meaning it can be kept open for longer exposures.

The combination of these factors is the reason why virtually all astrophotography-specific CCDs produced these days are 1) B&W, and 2) relatively small (comparatively speaking).

Re:I'm curious...

[mark-t]

The constellations would be essentially identical to what they are like on Earth. The only discernable difference would be in how the visible planets move past them over time.

All those stars are *REALLY* far away, after all, and the short hop from Earth to Mars is insignigicant in comparison.

Re:I'm curious...

[Fr33z0r]

Hmm, if what you're saying is true then that works in my favor (I get to take pretty pictures of the sky :) but I'm not convinced, I've used a tripod-mounted Canon Powershot G2 3mp camera and taken 8 second exposures in pitch black when the stars are at their absolute best, all I've seen in the resulting images is the brightest of the stars and some CCD artifacts (that admittedly look like stars, but aren't).

As for my color camera having the same effective resolution equivalent to 1 mp, I just don't see how you figure that out, the highest resolution images I can take are somewhere above 2000x1600 (I forget the exact resolution) which equates to around 3 million pixels in the image, I would notice if the resulting shot was 1/3rd the resolution it was supposed to be, I was under the impression they use a B&W CCD with the filters largely because there's less to break, and less weight/space is taken up. Correct me if I'm wrong :)

Re:I'm curious...

[Abcd1234]

I've used a tripod-mounted Canon Powershot G2 3mp camera and taken 8 second exposures in pitch black when the stars are at their absolute best, all I've seen in the resulting images is the brightest of the stars and some CCD artifacts

Well, I never said you'd get an amazing panorama with the milky way clearly visible. :) For this, you probably need exposures in the order of minutes, and CCDs just aren't up to that yet. OTOH, from some surfing I've done, you can certainly produce some decent night-sky shots which show constellations and so forth...

As for my color camera having the same effective resolution equivalent to 1 mp, I just don't see how you figure that out,

Okay, I'll put it this way (my use of the word "resolution" may be slightly incorrect, here). A 4 megapixel camera has 4 million elements on the CCD. Of those 4 million elements, 1 million are filtered red, 1 million blue, and 2 million green, all arranged in a pretty pattern. When you take a picture, a given pixel in the final output image is generated by combining these four signals into one final output signal. So, a 4 megapixel colour CCD has less true resolution than a 4 megapixel B&W CCD (ie, it conveys less *true* information).

Re:I'm curious...

[rabidcow]

As for my color camera having the same effective resolution equivalent to 1 mp, I just don't see how you figure that out, the highest resolution images I can take are somewhere above 2000x1600 (I forget the exact resolution) which equates to around 3 million pixels in the image

It's interpolating. My 4MP digital camera has 2272x1704 pixels, but 1/4 of them are read, 1/4 are blue, and iirc 1/2 are green. The camera interpolates between adjacent pixels of the same color, then combines them to make one large full-color image. So it really gets somewhere between the the "effective" 1 or 2MP and the total 4MP. (note that this is not the same a digital zoom, since each channel has samples that are slightly offset from the others)

Re:I'm curious...

[ClioCJS]

Excellent clarification.

Re:I'm curious...

[Anonymous Coward]

Love the flash (replying to your sig...). 479 is the best I can do.

Re:I'm curious...

[digital bath]

517.5

The trick is to hit the penguin at a shallow angle so that it skips off the snow instead of lodging in it when it hits the ground.

Mars Rover Communicating at 10 bits per second!

[TheNarrator]

Wow.. That's a little more than one ascii character per second... I can see the bits coming down now: A...L...I...E...N...A...T...T...A...C...K
NO CARRIER

Re:Mars Rover Communicating at 10 bits per second!

[jeps]

Nah - more like "W...e...g...e...t...s...i...g...n...a...l........ .A...l...l...y...o...u...r...b..." ... etc, etc.

Re:Mars Rover Communicating at 10 bits per second!

[danidude]

Or...
A..L..L..L.. ...
Y..o..U..R.. ..
B..A..S..

Re:Mars Rover Communicating at 10 bits per second!

[Jagasian]

s...l...a...s...h...d...o...t...t...e...d

better news

[spurious cowherd]

The latest update seems to indicate that they may be on track to getting back working
They just need to stay away from the STOP+A keys

Contact w/ Spirit

[Ateryx]

Good News for NASA, Bad news for Brits. NASA had 20 minutes of connection at 120b/s with spirit.

Re:Contact w/ Spirit

[tobe]

Why is it bad news for the brits.. it's good news for everyone. Science is not a competitive pursuit.. it's a collaborative one.

Re:Contact w/ Spirit

[SenseiLeNoir]

Well Said...

But had Spirit failed, and if anything goes wrong with Opportunity, that would be three landing probe failures in less than a month. that could end up preventing future probes by ANY country, as the risk of failure would scare funders.

I, even as a british, am proud of the efforts by NASA, as not only is some great science coming in, it gives hope for the future...

Yes i know i do write some humourous posts too, but those are humorous, and I diss both NASA and beagle in equal measure...

Re:Contact w/ Spirit

[VdG]

Here's a more poisitive take on co-operation, courtesy of your European friends.
ESA

Re:Contact w/ Spirit

[bigpat]

"Science is not a competitive pursuit.. it's a collaborative one."

Science and exploration are certainly competetive pursuits. As people we value things that are "first", this provides motivation to do some types of things.

It is not a bad thing to compete. In fact it is this very value of recognition that provides part of the impetus for people to share knowledge and discovery so that we can confirm and understand the accomplishment.

It is something that many don't seem to appreciate as much these days, that something can be both collaborative and competitive at the same time, to good effect.

"The Dish" got fried?

[quinkin]

A large electrical storm was busy trying to pump megawatts of power into the dishes used by NASA near canberra australia about the same time as Spirit went coy. Lovely pictures of big dishes and bigger bolts of lightning on the news.

I'm not saying it caused the failure, but I'm sure it didn't help...

Q.

Re:"The Dish" got fried?

[britneys 9th husband]

They have dishes in 2 other locations (Spain and the Mojave Desert), so if it was just a broken dish in Australia, they would have been able to communicate with the rover by now.

NO NO.. Spirit found water!

[SenseiLeNoir]

Last communications between NASA and Spirit....

NASA: MOVE FORWARD 10

SPIRIT: 10? Ok 10 METERS [whir.. Trundle]

NASA: NO NO. 10 FEET!

SPIRIT: OOPS..

NASA: WHAT HAPPENED?!?!?! REQUEST STATUS REPORT!

SPIRIT: LOCATION - OLD RIVERBED
GOOD NEWS - FOUND WATER
BETTER NEWS - LOTS OF WATER
BAD NEWS - NOT WATERPROO...#%$&#..... Bzzzzzzzzzzzt

NASA: DAMN!!!!!!!

Re:NO NO.. Spirit found water!

[NinjaPablo]

This proves it! NASA is using LOGO to control Spirit! So that's how it is.....

Re:NO NO.. Spirit found water!

[Anonymous Coward]

NASA: Go North

SPIRIT: THERE IS NO WAY THROUGH IN THAT DIRECTION

NASA: Go West

SPIRIT: I AM IN AN OLD RIVERBED. THERE IS A TROLL HERE. HE LOOKS UNFRIENDLY.

NASA: Kill Troll

SPIRIT: WITH WHAT SHOULD I ATTEMPT TO KILL TROLL?

NASA: Kill Troll with Tinderbox

SPIRIT: I AM IN AN OLD RIVERBED. THERE IS A DEAD TROLL HERE.

Re:NO NO.. Spirit found water!

[line.at.infinity]

How about:

NASA: REPEAT 1000 [ FORWARD 20 RIGHT 160 ]

Ahh, the good old LOGO days... ;)

Re:NO NO.. Spirit found water!

[Grayden]

River Bed
You are in a deep river bed with high cliffs. The passage continues to the east and west.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

Don't know 10 bps

[Zorgoth]

I work in the oilfield operating a 2 tons monstrosity called an MWD. These things are used to transmit data from up to a 10 km deep hole and on the basis of this data the decision of which way to drill a well are made (oil wells are usually not vertical affairs these days). Multi-million dollar decisions are regularly made on a data from a transfer rate of less than 10 bps, 6 bps is excellent and transmission rates are often in the range of 0.5-3 bits per second. You would be surprised at how much system information can be crammed into that bandwidth if the programmers are clever. Incidentally, my tools use a modulation/demodulation scheme similar to that used on the Voyager probes, we just have to transmit through viscous mud with pressure instead of light across the solar system.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[happyfrogcow]

we just have to transmit through viscous mud with pressure instead of light across the solar system.

henceforth the period of time between normal operation of servers and the death blow of a slashdot effect shall be refered to as "having mud in their pipes." for example, SCO.com has mud in their pipes, they'll be slashdotted soon.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[Anonymous Coward]

Multi-million dollar decisions are regularly made on a data from a transfer rate of less than 10 bps, 6 bps is excellent and transmission rates are often in the range of 0.5-3 bits per second.

Sounds like a correct description of the thought-process normally executed by my boss...

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[Anonymous Coward]

Multi-million dollar decisions are regularly made on a data from a transfer rate of less than 10 bps, 6 bps is excellent and transmission rates are often in the range of 0.5-3 bits per second

Sounds like a correct description of the thought-process normally executed by my boss...

Working for SCO?

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[geschild]

There's a slight difference though. That equipment probably had a bit more time than the ten minutes that this connection lasted... :-)

I find it intriguing that information is coming back from a drill so far down. In a way, that is undiscovered country much like Mars is.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[ubeans]

Unfortunately NASA is sending XML/SOAP messages...

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

From you:

from up to a 10 km deep hole

From the USGS:

the deepest oil and gas wells penetrate the Earth's crust to about 8 kilometers

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[sik0fewl]

I work in the oilfield operating a 2 tons monstrosity called an MWD.

Meapon of wass destruction? Is it safe to be using these things on oilfields?

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[Anonymous Coward]

He already said it doesn't go straight down.
A hole can be 10km deep while only being 8km beneath the crust.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Deep means deep. I think he must mean long.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[moosesocks]

You've got MWDs and oil????

Don't tell Bush!

(MWD must mean mass weapons of destruction... scary to think that not only has your company developed nuclear technology, but also developed antimatter)

This only applies if you don't work for Halliburton.

Re:Don't know 10 bps

[Anonymous Coward]

big lmao !! ahahah

and then they say its dean thats smoking pipe..

On March 15

[Anonymous Coward]

If NASA announces the discovery of conclusive evidence of an ocean on Mars prior to February 29, 2004, America gets free Giant Shrimp at participating Long John Silver's restaurants on Monday, March 15, 2004, from 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.

Not warm enough for liquid water

[confused one]

Where the rover is, it's never getting above the freezing point for water.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[l0wland]

Where the rover is, it's never getting above the freezing point for water.

I thought the temperature of Mars was -15 degrees Celsius at it's coldest, and +5 degrees Celsius at it's hotest (according to temperatures received from Spirit)

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[Anonymous Coward]

At the Gusev site, it gets down to about -120 at night (fahrenheit) and about +44 during the day time, which of course, is above the melting and sublimating point of water. The Gusev site is at the triple state point for water, so water just below the surface of the soil is quite possible, especially considering that we see hydrogen in that region, indicative of water.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[Inebrius]

Pressure also plays a part in whether liquid water can or cannot exist.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[QuoteMstr]

Yeah, but take into account the low air pressure. Mars' maximum air pressure is 9 millibars, which, according to google, is 0.0088823094. This means water would freeze/melt at 305 Kelvins, 27 degrees above the maximum temperature Spirit recorded.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[lommer]

Um, doesn't lower pressure depress the freezing + boiling points? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be interested in seeing your equations.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[QuoteMstr]

Don't have the actual equation... friend did it, actually. But look at this phase diagram of water. At a constant temperature, decreasing the pressure raises the freezing point and decreases the boiling point. Hell, below 4.88 torr liquid water can't exist at all. Air pressure on mars is 6.75 torr.

Re:Not warm enough for liquid water

[Anonymous Coward]

Pressure melts ice at "normal" conditions. Of course it's all a lot more complicated.

At some temps, adding pressure will melt ice, then more pressure will freeze it again into a different type of ice.

Sparkling Mineral water to be exact.

[J1bber]

This stuff's mixed with frozen C02

Mars Express Confirms Rocks on Mars

[fuzzybunny]

In breaking news today, NASA's Spirit probe transmitted data confirming the existence of rocks on the red planet. "We're very excited" said Aloisious Smythe Ponsonby-Jones, project manager of the Mars mission's rock-finding department. "Right on this picture, you can see a little redd-ish one, and here another. This one's shaped like an egg, and the second one, if you look carefully, has a little face shape on it."

The mission's dust-detection sub-project, as well as its quest to determine whether Mars is, indeed, reddish-brown colored, are still awaiting further data.

Re:Mars Express Confirms Rocks on Mars

[Cantus]

Mars Express is the ESA mission, not NASA's.

Hoorraayyy

[savagedome]

Spirit Rover is back on track again.

Colony in the near future?

[perlstar]

So does this open up the possibility for a real mars colony at some point in the future?

Re:Colony in the near future?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, we can now extract the O2 from the ice below the surface as was done in "Total Recall". The colonization of Mars is now a certainty.

Re:Spirit finds traces of Rain Water!

[Anonymous Coward]

More info on Spirit mission to Mares here

oh friggin' great...

[tuxette]

I can see it now. Mars water for longevity weight loss penis-enchancement boob-growth SPAM!

Sinkhole!!!

[WormholeFiend]

check out the Mars Express photo featured at the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3422841. stm

looks like there's a sinkhole... and where there are sinkholes, there are....? CAVERNS!

Re:Sinkhole!!!

[cxvx]

check out the Mars Express photo featured at the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3422841. stm
looks like there's a sinkhole... and where there are sinkholes, there are....? CAVERNS!

Caverns? Maybe that's why Bush is so eager to go to Mars. You never know Osama may be hiding in one of them there. He sure can't find him on this planet :)

You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[JumperCable]

Let the terraforming begin!

You may be joking but I think it's a good idea. I think the odds of finding life on mars is slim to nil. Right now they are fruitlessly running around hoping to find past traces of life.

Terraforming will be a long long process. I say we jump start it by tossing out some extremophile microbes and see what takes root. Scatter them around the water laden edges of the poles. Anything that produces organic compounds has got to be better than what Mars has now.

At this point we have some clue as to what kind of compounds and weather conditions exist on Mars. Let's set up some test beds here, genetically reengineer existing extremophiles and see if we can get something that grows.

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[N3WBI3]

With not natural cycle for water and little amounts do we really want to waste it on microbes? I am with the poser above put some kind a big power supply there (nuclear, or microwave orbital) and start putting people there...

Note: I am not a Bio major so maybe putting large colonies of microbes would not reduce the amount of water...

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[AKAImBatman]

I am with the poser above

Thanks a lump. :-/

As for the microbes, I'm not sure that limited water is the issue. The real issue is if we really want to be deploying microbes when there's no one there to keep an eye on them? If we build a small dome city near a (relatively) closed area like a canyon, we will have the perfect staging point for deploying microbes. Inside the canyon, Oxygen levels would (hopefully) rise quickly forming a bubble of livable atmosphere.

That's the theory anyway. Whether it's workable or not remains to be seen. Since O2 is much lighter than its CO2 counterpart, it's possible that all the O2 will simply float away and disperse.

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[N3WBI3]

Sorry poser was supposed to be poster..

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[sniggly]

Most astronomists nowadays believe most water on mars has evaporated off planet - there might not be enough to go around for terraforming. Maybe if spirit's got its little wheels spinning in some kind of icy mud there might be enough, but so far NASA hasn't stuck its detectors into the ground as they perhaps should have done right away.

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[AKAImBatman]

Sorry poser was supposed to be poster..

Dude, relax. I'm just poking at you. At least you didn't spell Segue as Segway! ;-)

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[NanoGator]

"You may be joking but I think it's a good idea. I think the odds of finding life on mars is slim to nil."

Prime directive be damned!

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[Maxhrk]

my theory -

pour alots gig of water upon the dead river, plant the grass and so on under the river. it may work out slowly. and lastly for plant need CO2 in order to release O2.

I am not a scientist. At least. :)

Re:You joke but terraforming is a good idea

[AKAImBatman]

plant the grass and so on under the river. it may work out slowly. and lastly for plant need CO2 in order to release O2.

That's what the microbes are for. Some microbial life can eat raw materials and exhaust Oxygen and other nutrients as waste. This would be the first step toward terraforming Mars. After the microbes have managed to make an area more habitable, we can plant normal plants and begin importing animals.

Of course, this would probably happen *after* we have massive fields of corn under pressurized tarps. The CO2 to O2 ratio could be carefully controlled so that the corn will have plenty of CO2, but won't die for lack of a bit of oxygen. (Many plants still need small amounts of Oxygen to survive.)

You have a short attention span

[ianscot]

I understand they are grasping to get the American public "excited" once more about space exploration...

You have your choice of news sources. Seems like space.com and NASA are doing a decent job explaining these releases in context. They do indicate that this is a confirmation of what we thought, right? Are you just wanting them to wait until they translate the pulses with Hitler's opening ceremonies speech, or what?

I understand they are grasping to get the American public "excited" once more about space exploration, but still. Water does not excite me.

Funny how all the scientists seem to be looking for water, though, isn't it? Gosh, you'd think it was one of the necessary conditions for life as we know (or at least expect) it.

Which it is. Which is why it would be big news to definitively determine whether Mars's surface features have to do with flowing water. Oops, did we lose you already?...

Re:You have a short attention span

[rogabean]

OK, OK..point made by all. It was my error that I didn't notice this was ESA's report, not NASA. I've just felt overwhelmed by little bits of info coming out of NASA as of late, that this just seemed like another carrot being tossed our way. And I hold my position on NASA's carrots. Yes water is a prerequisite for life, but I don't see this being such a big deal. We've pretty much known there is water there in some form. Sure this confirms it. I'll be more excited when we bring some of that water back and see results that possibly "life" in some form exists in it.

Short attention span? no. My point originally was that we are going to grow sick of hearing all these little daily updates. rover got stuck, rover this, rover that.

bah, /.ignore me - i think i'm cranky today and this story just hit me the wrong way.

what sort of commands get sent?

[Raleel]

i mean...I know they got limited bandwidth and all, but what sort of protocol do they use?

good lord, this is an incredibly geeky question, but I'm serious, i wanna know.

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Z-modem

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[Just Some Guy]

Probably some offshoot of Kermit. You can sent data over tin cans and a string without loss with that beast.

In contrast, Beagle seems to have used YModem-G and "&Q0". Kiddies.

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[ClioCJS]

Dammnit.. I can almost remember what &Q0 does.

Tell me or I will ATZ your ass!

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[Just Some Guy]

From a random reference, it sets direct async mode, i.e. disables error correction.

Don't forget to +++ an ass before you ATZ it. :-)

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[ClioCJS]

Oh, I always lube my asses up with +++ before I ATZ them baby. (Thanks)

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[NakedPenguin]

Your asses? How many do you have?

Re:what sort of commands get sent?

[ClioCJS]

I was given four (4). Thank you Dr. Mephisto.

All these technogeeks all this hostility

[gelfling]

It's kind of sad really all these nerds who pretty much owe their lives, livelihoods and amusement to advanced technology constantly pooh poohing this great science going on.

Ah well - the confluence of indifference, stupidity and radical Libertarian 'prices of everything'.

See If NASA promised that Mars science would guarantee the slashnerds could share illegal music for free forever I'm pretty sure those damn Trekkie buffoons could get behind it.

Live long and eat Cheetos, fat goofy weird comicbook store guy.

Re:All these technogeeks all this hostility

[Anonymous Coward]

NIH syndrome. The Mars Express is European and most of the posters on /. are American.

Re:All these technogeeks all this hostility

[kamapuaa]

Engineers tend to think of practical benefits. And I'm not convinced the space program is anything more than a massive PR effort. I think scientific efforts on Mars are a big waste of money until more advanced forms of propulsion and energy generation are developed, and that these Mars missions don't contribute to their development in the slightest.

It's easy to be negative about Mars, in the wake of Bush announcing a program to use Apollo-type rockets to put men on Mars. It's not "great science," - in fact, it's diverting money from legitimate scientific programs. A greater knowledge of physics is more vital to any future space exploration, than using proven 60's tech to get a good photo op. on Mars.

Re:All these technogeeks all this hostility

[juhaz]

I think scientific efforts on Mars are a big waste of money until more advanced forms of propulsion and energy generation are developed, and that these Mars missions don't contribute to their development in the slightest.

Of course they do. They act as a constant reminder about how slow and expensive the current technology is and serve as a nice pressure into making it better.

There isn't slightest interest in developing advanced forms of propulsion if it's not going to be used for something, if old-style space missions are demolished, the futuretech you're waiting for will never become a reality.

Astronaut Dean says...

[q-the-impaler]

With this water we can go to Mars. Then were gonna take Deimos, then we're gonna go take Phobos, then we're going over to Mercury to take back the SUN!!!!! Yeaaaaahhhhh!

The fine print

[addie]

For purposes of Long John Silver's offer, an ocean is defined as a single body of water, the surface area of which equals or exceeds five million square kilometers.

Er... I'm pretty sure they're safe on this one.

Re:The fine print

[Fnkmaster]

They also don't clarify whether "ocean" implies liquid water or whether a frozen ocean would do.

Maybe not so

[Mr Europe]

You must be from Japan ?
If the rover is the size of compact car, it is very compact !
Here are both the current rover and the previous one in the same picture:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/s pacecraft/ tworovers_br.html
One seat could barely fit.

Re:Maybe not so

[dyte]

Use HTML and your links won't get corrupted

Re: How would it react to wind?

[thedillybar]

I wouldn't worry about it flipping.

That's why you're not an engineer for NASA. You worry about the little things or you stand on the sideline and watch.

What about beagle?

[SenseiLeNoir]

Ahhh that explains why Beagle is missing... it fell in a puddle, and is not waterproof!

Re: How would it react to wind?

[addie]

After reading the two responses to my post, and checking the link. I gotta say, I should've read a bit more before saying what I did.

Ok. How's this.

I really, really hope we don't have to worry about it flipping.

Re: How would it react to wind?

[mikerich]

Look at photos of the Spirit, what with it's flat platform on top..... They landed this thing in an area known to have alot of wind (and in their words, has alot of "dust devils" and little twisters).

Easy, Martian atmosphere pressure is only 1% that of Earth's. So whilst the winds on Mars can reach enormous speeds, they actually exert very little force.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Just out of curiousity...

[NeuroManson]

Would the recent solar eruption have anything to do with Spirit's shutdown? No matter the data speed involved in the transmission, a solar flare and multiple sunspots would generate quite a bit of noise. Especially when you take into account that Mars doesn't have much of, if any magnetosphere to deflect ionizing particles.

Re:Water on Mars, what's it all about

[WormholeFiend]

you've got it all wrong...

they found water on Mars... Is it frozen, or is it wet?

Water ?

[BESTouff]

What ? No beer ?

North

[crow]

I would assume that since Mars is in the same orbital plane as Earth, that the north pole on Mars points out on the same side of the orbital plane as north on Earth.

The signal reads:

[minator]

w3 T3h M4rTi4N H4k3r5 h@VE 0wN3r3D Y0uR 5loW R0V3R. W3 WIll 0vErcLOcK 1T anD m4Ke i+ f45tEr. W3 4Re L33+. J00 4R3 L4m3.

NASA can't make any sence of it...

What drives LJS to offer free shrimp, I know.

[Libertarian_Geek]

Why would Long John Silver's be interested in Mars?
They are looking for more Poplars!
Futurama - Season 2 Episode 15 (The Problem With Poplars)

Slightly OT...

[curne]

...but too funny
http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/log/OI23012004.gi f

Re:JPL has an update: 20min data session rcat 0830

[Jugalator]

That's more good news then. :-)

Let's just hope the good news in it transmitting telemetry data doesn't mean bad news in what the telemetry data shows. :-/

Regardless what, I'm starting to get ready for the Opportunity landing party to be held at #maestro on irc.freenode.net :-D

Martian water underground due to sandworm activity

[Lord Agni]

Which also explains the color of the landscape, the cinnamon reddish-brown of the spice melange; and the blue-within-blue color of the probe's camera lenses.

Clickable link and text

[Anonymous Coward]

JPL has an update

Updated Mars Exploration Rover Mission Status January 23, 2004

The flight team for NASA's Spirit received data from the rover in a communication session that began at 13:26 Universal Time (5:26 a.m. PST) and lasted 20 minutes at a data rate of 120 bits per second.

"The spacecraft sent limted data in a proper response to a ground command, and we're planning for commanding further communication sessions later today," said Mars Exploration Rover Project Manager Pete Theisinger at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.

The flight team at JPL had sent a command to Spirit at 13:02 Universal Time (5:02 PST) via the NASA Deep Space Network antenna complex near Madrid, Spain, telling Spirit to begin transmitting.

Re:Water on Mars, what's it all about

[loconet]

Wet water? .. now that would be a discovery.

Re:Water on Mars, what's it all about

[WormholeFiend]

we already know about "dry ice", so...

Re:Spirit finds traces of Rain Water!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it's not goatse/tubgirl, no human bodily parts on it :)

Just c&p starting from 'begin', ending with '====' to a file, if on windows, name it somefile.uue, then run through some uudecode program (winzip/winrar can do this just right)

in high resolution

[WormholeFiend]

http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_22_r eull_v.jpg

Rats...

[BookRead]

Same thing happened with my car. Rats got in and chewed up the wires to the fuel injectors. Mars is full of them, I tell you. Send the exterminators!

I fonly I could draw

[DeadTOm]

I thought a great cartoon would be a little two frame comic. The first frame showing mission control getting all excited at recieving a signal, then the next frame showing the transmitted picture of Spirit up on blocks with little green gangsters stealing the wheels.

Re:I fonly I could draw

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure Iliad of User Friendly fame could do the job admirably.

I want some!

[ziggamon]

This site Sell pieces of land on mars! Now available: ocean view, swimming pools, etc... Hell, I want myself a part of the ocean! 200 years from now, there will be boats trafficking The Ziggamonean Ocean... Wikkid!

Bottled Water

[Archalien]

I can see it now: $100/bottle for Martian Spring Water.

More news

[MouseR]

By increasing the digit at then of of this http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2004/30.cfm, you can get more news.

This one above is somewhat upbeat. The data rate from this last communication went from 10 minutes at 10 bits per second to 20 minutes at 120 bits per second.

Not quite live streaming, but not yet slashdoted either.

What else is new?

[amightywind]

So, finally: Through the initial mapping of the South polar cap on 18 January, OMEGA, the combined camera and infrared spectrometer, has already revealed the presence of water ice and carbon dioxide ice. This information was confirmed by the PFS, a new high-resolution spectrometer of unprecedented accuracy. The first PFS data also show that the carbon oxide distribution is different in the northern and southern hemispheres of Mars...

I am glad Mars Express' instruments are working well, but these are non-results. It has been known that there is solid H2O and CO2 in Mars for almost 100 years! Most recently the Mola experiment on Mars Global Surveyor has shown the the north polar cap is a large glacier. Mars Observer pictures have show recently active water runoff gullies. It is also very well known that more CO2 frost accumulates in the southern hemisphere than the north. The south is higher in elevation and southern winter corresponds to Mars orbital apoapse, so it is colder and more CO2 freezes out. I learned that in the 70's! Please tell us something new!

Nasa confirms new info

[Archangel Michael]

NASA has just confirmed what many have believed. That there is life on Mars. Detailed image has just been made public.

This discovery also explains why all the Mars spacecraft keeps going off line.

http://endtimedebate.com/Mars1.jpg

Be careful

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the oilfield operating a 2 tons monstrosity called an MWD.

You're one incident of presidential dyslexia away from being carpet bombed.

Re:Be careful

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL!.

and if only I could type...

[DeadTOm]

oopth

Melt it

[gr8_phk]

How much would the temperature need to rise to melt the CO2? I don't really care a whole lot about bacteria that may be on Mars, I'd like it to be more inhabitable. Drop some of our own bacteria there to produce enough greenhouse gas to heat it enough to melt the CO2 ice - heating it even more. If something could be found/engineered that would survive, it would grow rapidly (think algae bloom). I know, we don't have enough information about the chemistry of Mars to do this yet, but when do we stop worrying about martian bacteria and start doing something else? Or are we doing that analysis now, but hyping the life and water aspects to keep the public interested?

Re:Melt it

[Anonymous Coward]

Melt it? And how will this turn into water instead of evaporation? By melting the CO2 ice we are risking the chance of completely evaporating the currently existing water. And how in gods name do you plan to melt an icecap?

Re:Melt it

[slim]

How much would the temperature need to rise to melt the CO2? I don't really care a whole lot about bacteria that may be on Mars, I'd like it to be more inhabitable. Drop some of our own bacteria there to produce enough greenhouse gas to heat it enough to melt the CO2 ice - heating it even more. If something could be found/engineered that would survive, it would grow rapidly (think algae bloom). I know, we don't have enough information about the chemistry of Mars to do this yet, but when do we stop worrying about martian bacteria and start doing something else? Or are we doing that analysis now, but hyping the life and water aspects to keep the public interested?

This reminds me of an IMAX movie I saw. I forget the name, "conquest of space" or something scarily conquistadorial like that -- narrated by Leonard Nimmoy. Padding out the (excellent) real life IMAX footage of the Space Shuttle in flight, was a lot of CGI footage, including stuff about terraforming other planets.

In "time lapse" speed, it showed bombs set off on the surface to modify the temperature and chemical composition of the atmosphere, then showed how seeding the planet with algae would kick off an ecosystem. Before our very eyes the dusty surface of the planet bloomed into a lush eden, with grass, trees, wild animals, lakes, rivers and seas. Then Spock told us how after a few years the planet would be ready to colonise, and the animation showed buildings going up, and in no time, the entire surface was covered in buildings and roads, airports, with nary a blade of grass in sight.

Way to go, we've broken our planet, let's make another one habitable, so we can break that as well.

Re:Melt it

[Anonymous Coward]

Star Trek IV, or was it III? Which ever movie was basically called "The Genisis Project"

is anyone else worried...

[shaunyb]

is anyone else worried that, if the spirit doesnt wake up soon, this project might be a large waste of money? pretty pictures of rocks are all well and good, but they're not worth the money that was put into this.

if i dont see pictures of little green men soon, ima stop paying my taxes.

water is good, but...

[visgoth]

When they find large deposits of hydrocarbons under the surface I recommend forwarding the article to dubya@whitehouse.gov ;)

It appears....

[LnxAddct]

It appears that there is actually very few areas on Mars that aren't at least some what rich in H20. Frozen or not, we can melt it, Nuclear reactors are good at too:) The map shows that only a few spots here and there are red(have no H20). Most of the Planet is at least green (there are medium levels of H20) and the rest of it is blue or purple which means that its saturated with the stuff. Not that the finding by ESA was pointless.It is indeed great news and its always good to confirm our data.I just figured I'd point this out because I don't know about the rest of the slashdot crew, but it sure excites me that people (maybe me too) might be living on Mars in my lifetime.
Regards,
Steve

To think!

[NetNinja]

The discovery of water on Mars is like the discovery of fire.
I can't wait until they find a fossil of a fish!

Re: How would it react to wind?

[uberdave]

Rover dimensions: 1.5 meter (4.9 feet) high by 2.3 meters (7.5 feet) wide by 1.6 meter (5.2 feet) long ( MERfacts

It's closer to the size of a riding lawn mower. It's only the camera mast that makes it tall.

Re: How would it react to wind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this argument work for the dust that gets kicked up into the air and accelerated to those high speeds as well? Sure the pressure might only be 1% of Earth's, but what about the density? That's what really matters.

Water Eh?

[bLindmOnkey]

Here's what cracks me up. Scientists say there was probably a flood some long time ago on Mars...And their evidence is a tiny bit of frozen water??! Well, isn't it ironic that they believe that there could have been a massive flood on a planet where water barely exists now? And yet scientists say that a worldwide flood on the Earth is impossible, when really it is much more likey because of the amount of water that inhabits the Earth?

Re:Water Eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't in amounts, but upon the terrainal effects and their documented history. Terrain tells alot, how it is formed, what happened to it, etc etc. Their research showed that the terrain had the charataristics and features of land that had been flooded. Finding the ice caps and now frozen water helps them step closer to proving what the terrain is screaming

Re:Water Eh?

[GeoGreg]

I am guessing that the worldwide flood on Earth you are referring to is the flood of Gilgamesh (retold in the Jewish scriptures as the flood of Noah). I don't know of any scientists who believe that there was a planet-wide flood on Mars. There is clear evidence of channelization on Mars, apparently caused by large volumes of water. It is likely that much of the ancient water of Mars has "boiled off" due to the much weaker gravity of Mars as compared to Earth.

Here on Earth, we have abundant water, along with some ancient landforms that indicate that large floods have taken place in various parts of the world at various times in the past (e.g., the "channeled Scablands" in the US state of Washington). However, the Near East story of the worldwide Deluge is not supported by the geologic evidence. By the way, the Earth is currently about 70% flooded. There is not enough water in the polar ice caps to flood the remaining 30% of the Earth's surface (where's the rest of Noah's water?). The ocean basins hold too much water. If they were shallower, then the Earth would in fact be flooded. So it's not impossible that the Earth could be flooded. It just so happens that it's not. And it certainly wouldn't happen over the course of just 40 days.

Anyone have the weather report on Mars?

[planckscale]

How windy is it? Maybe the thing got blown over. What are the high and low temperatures? I would think vapo-chilling the PC on it would only make it run better (no heatsink needed). What's the air pressure? Are there any clouds? Does anyone have a link to these basic weather stats?

taking water to mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgive my lack of scientific knowledge, but if we were to transfer massive amounts of water to mars, what would the reaction be in terms of it having an effect on the planetary system? The atmosphere? Reason I am asking is because, like dew catchers on earth, there may be a way to recreate water based combinations while on the planet. Anyone know what possible effects H2O would have though?

Re:taking water to mars?

[mbstone]

Forgive my lack of scientific knowledge, but if we were to transfer massive amounts of water to mars, what would the reaction be in terms of it having an effect on the planetary system?

Your water bill would go up.

Get out the forks and knives

[La Camiseta]

Long John Silver's should be giving a free jumbo shrimp to every person in the nation now. The thing is that a jumbo shrimp is 6" long.

Re: How would it react to wind?

[shubert1966]

So whilst the winds on Mars can reach enormous speeds, they actually exert very little force.

That's very interesting. I've been bandying a theory about in my ignorant little head about what billions of years of wind would do to cover up any lakes or seas that may exist (frozen) with particulate matter.

Maybe there is ice outside of the polar regions that has been covered by more than just a blanket of topsoil - perhaps a meter, 10, or thousands deep. If the wind can only move dust, perhaps that is why my hypothetical basins are not being revealed. I guess I'll just keep reading.

Thanks!

Why is this important?

[ubeans]

Just a reminder of why the confirmation that there is water (frozen or otherwise) is an important milestone in the quest for establishing a base on Mars:

Water provides vital ingredients that are needed to sustain (human) life on Mars, ingredients that would be too costly to import from Earth using cargo ships:

• Hydrogen (power source)
• Oxygen (for breathing)
• Water (for drinking)

The only thing left is to build some sort of biodome having an atmosphere in which vegetables and fruits could be produced (food).

We're all probably be dead before all this happens, but it's still an interesting endeavour scientifically speaking.

It baffles me why they don't just try to build a base like that at the bottom of the oceans, here on Earth. I guess it would not capture the taxpayers imagination enough for the politicians to give serious funding to such an endeavour. Oh well.

How much water?

[MobyDisk]

How much water is there in the poles? Is it enough to create rivers or lakes or oceans? Is it just enough to humidify the atmosphere? Or is it not enough to have any planetwide impacty at all? That seems like it will be the key thing. It will be most exciting if we find there is enough to cover the planet.

Re: How would it react to wind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mars Express has ground-penetrating radar that can read down to 3 miles, so it should see the ice lenses of the cryosphere. We found so much water just from the epithermal neutron counter on Odyssy.

Seriously though...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they consider the possibility of Mars rocks being radioactive (for whatever reason)? Or maybe not rocks but certain areas? Approaching such a thing would potentially affect onboard electronics. I wonder if the rover has ability to go in reverse following the path it already covered and thus going to a zone where we knew it was functioning properly...

Re:Dew

[Anonymous Coward]

Spirit's problems may be due to moisture accumulation with the wide temperature fluctuations. The Martian atmosphere is at 100% humidity at night due to the cold. It's not much, but any moisture at all *will* freeze and condense on the surface.

How Long...

[nitzelflick]

Before our gov't/big business gets the bright idea that we need not rape the mother anymore when we have a new planet to pillage, which is very similar to our own. How much good stuff do you figure is on that red devil? Maybe there was plant/animal life there at one time. That would mean there would be oil...

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

when will it discover the space pirates and mother brain?

Spacecraft Commands

[Detritus]

This is a generic answer, as I am not familiar with the command and data handling systems on Spirit.

Most spacecraft commands are sent as fixed or variable length frames of synchronous data. A frame usually begins with a sync pattern, some header information, the actual command, and a trailer containing a checksum or CRC. There is no protocol, in the sense that most people use. Think of the commands as UDP datagrams. The engineers in the control center monitor the telemetry downlink to verify that the commands sent were received and decode properly. The spacecraft command decoder has parameters in the telemetry downlink such as "# of good commands received" , "# of commands rejected", and "last command received". For simple commands, like "heater #5 ON", you can check the downlink telemetry for the status of heater #5 and verify that it is in the correct state. For complicated operations, like uploading software or large data tables, the spacecraft can be commanded to do a memory dump to the downlink telemetry, allowing the upload to be verified.

As a general rule, spacecraft command processing is kept as simple as possible. You want the command decoder to be extremely reliable, so that even if half the hardware on the spacecraft is broken, you can still send it commands and have them executed. Rather than rely on an automatic protocol, it is usually better to take advantage of the cleverness of the engineers and computers on the ground. Since there is a human in the loop, take advantage of it. The human knows things that a protocol doesn't, like the spacecraft is about to go "over the hill" due to the motion of the Earth and the spacecraft. The engineer may also want to do things like uplink a sequence of commands into temporary storage, verify them with a dump, and execute them only after he is sure that all of the commands were successfully received and decoded. Some commands are designed to require multiple actions before they do something dangerous and/or irreversible to the spacecraft. For example, "arm pyro #36" and "fire pyro #36", which might deploy a solar panel.

But ofcourse: LOGO

[thrill12]

What other language can control a spaceship millions of miles away than LOGO?

update on Spirit signal

[bl8n8r]

After analyzing the data, they found Spirit had been infected with the Nachi virus and was sending out spam from Mars. There were also ARP requests mixed in the data stream looking for windowsupdate.com. :-)

Dude

[KnightStalker]

Evidence for water activity on Mars comes (I think) mainly from pictures of geological formations: eroded hillsides, gravel bars, river canyons, etc. This is different: evidence of water ice currently in a particular location. Then again I thought that the presence of water ice on Mars was already pretty well established, but what do I know :-)

Re:Dude

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen, I'm not sure where people get there facts from, but all earlier measurements were INDIRECT MEASUREMENTS of water ice: The mere signature of hydrogen was detected in previous missions by the Mars Global Surveyor. That is to say, they saw the smoke, but not the fire.

Mars Express, on the other hand, has measured the presence of water ice in DIRECT manner with their onboard detectors.

What does it take for the USA to actually congratulate other nations for their achievements? Are they really having a hard time to accept that other nations can just as well do quality research in space? The USA really has the atitude of "Seen it, done it" with everything they do. Please, get over it.

Re:Dude

[Anonymous Coward]

What does it take for the USA to actually congratulate other nations for their achievements? Are they really having a hard time to accept that other nations can just as well do quality research in space? The USA really has the atitude of "Seen it, done it" with everything they do. Please, get over it.

it's because you third world country dwellers have such a negative view of the US. Just face it, US culture is world culture. US science is ahead of the whole world. We own you guys, and you guys are being bitches about it. Just accept it. The US owns you. Then maybe we will think about being nice to you eurotrash.

Good News for Spirit

[CedgeS]

Spirit's better off right now than yesterday's press release. See:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressrelea ses/20040123b.html

no way!

[form3hide]

we landed on the moon!

GW was right?

[Anonymous Coward]

WMD you say... oilfield you say...

The more important fine print

[Anonymous Coward]

...every person in the U.S. will have an opportunity to obtain one free Giant Shrimp at participating Long John Silver's restaurants in the United States. Redemption will take place on Monday, March 15, 2004, from 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.

First off, this is only for people living in the United States. Secondly, you can only get one shrimp! Thirdly, it's good only at participating restaurants. And lastly, the offer is only good for 3 hours!
By the time you find a participating restaraunt, it will either be out of shrimp or after 5 p.m.
Hahahaha.

Re:The more important fine print

[M. Baranczak]

Well, you can go in multiple times and wear a different mustache each time.

Why go? To guarantee our survival, some say.

[hpulley]

Some say we should worry more about incoming asteroids wiping out all life on earth which would mean we should establish human colonies on the Moon, Mars and elsewhere to hedge our bets against such an occurance (could return to repopulate the planet after a time). Others say earth is heading for environmental disaster and the solution might be to leave it for lifeless places and artificial environments where we can do no harm. Others yet want us to think about overpopulation which could be solved by spreading out to other planets and while others say that sociopolitical causes are the main of hunger today, there is a limit to the number of people that can live here.

Why did people come to the New World, not just in Columbus' time but earlier from Asia? Why did they send their canoes to Pacific islands? The time will come that our reasons will match theirs. Today the reasons are not yet there and the will is only shared by a few but the reasons will likely become more apparent and the population more willing with time.

Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our new invisible martian overlords! May not their acuatic fury fall upon us!

Re:Cool

[Hott of the World]

Where's our Free Giant Shrimp?

What Spirit sent

[Anonymous Coward]

Latest Spirit Transmission:

37af98e29a8e7fbc78e9a98200138efab09c909879e08b08 0a 0e08f7090f

Translation:

37af98e29a8e7fbc78e9a98200138efab09c909879e08b08 0a 0e08f7090f

...but does it have oil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry bush, no compressed, dead dinosaurs here.

Rover

[husker_man]

Red Rover, Red Rover,
Send Beagle2 on over ;)

Dupe!

[Anonymous Coward]

This story is a duplicate of one you had (or should have had) almost a year ago

Re: Sounds familiar

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the big deal, my 802.11 wireless throughput can vary like that too. Especially when the neighbor turns on the microwave oven. Hey....that's it! The Martian lunch hour!

Hobbiest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey smart guy, maybe they meant nobbiest? Ever think of that?

Re: How would it react to wind?

[hesiod]

> billions of years of wind would do to cover up any lakes or seas that may exist (frozen) with particulate matter.

A problem I see with your theory is that if that dust accumulates, it still had to come from somewhere. Therefore, unless quite a few VERY LARGE mountains have gone missing (eroded to dust) and the water had stayed frozen solid during that entire time, it would not be very thick, and parts of it would be uncovered from time to time. It seems likely that there are no missing mountains, or else the planet would be considerably more spherical and there would be no mountains left to speak of.

In addition, since "sea level" is generally lower than land level, the dust would have to settle in the sea-level areas. You know all those canyons & craters on the planet? They would all be filled up too. Or, at least, more than they are now.

Of course, blah blah IANAN* (Nasa anything), blah blah.

Water? Big deal...

[FirstTimeCaller]

We've got plenty of water! What we Americans want to know is when they find oil on Mars!

Work together.

[chadm1967]

I wish the US and Europe would work together on all of this. Imagine what we could accomplish if we one would stop trying to outdo the other?

Re:Work together.

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. This board is crapflooded by technogeeks having no real sense what science is about. They think it is just a competition. What a shame.

It is obvious that the ESA is doing great if we look at the success of their first Mars Express Orbiter. The pictures are truly stunning. I'm sure we will see much more stunning results from the onboard instruments, such as the ground-penetrating radar: up to a few kilometers!

At any rate, the Rovers and Mars Express will leave no secrets to those little Martians :)

Re:Work together.

[T-Punkt]

"We" are already working together. E.g. both Mars rover carry european sensors as pathfinder and sojourner did before. Or Stardust. Or Ulyssus. Or Soho. Or Cassini+Huygens. Or Hubble. The list goes on and on.

Only one Shrimp

[PetoskeyGuy]

but it's a GIANT shrimp.

and we think PERRIER's expensive ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Evian's got a probe en route.

Arbitrary poles.

[synth7]

With regards to the original question: Yes, poles are arbitrary. For example, if the dominant civilization that spawned our culture were to have arisen in Australia, we'd have drawn all of our maps flipped 180 degrees since the southern cross would be "up" (and thus be north) since it's the primary point of navigation.

So, the decision to drawn the globe of Earth with the north pole at the top is an arbitrary decision. It would be just as accurate to draw the globe with the south pole at the top. It is simply tradition that tells us north is "up."

Imagine if the Earth had an axis of rotation similar to Uranus, where it rotates on it's "side" compared to the planar axis of the solar system. What would our ancestors have used as "up" when there is no star in the sky that stays relatively stationary with compared to rotation? (I'm assuming that Uranus doesn't orbit with one pole continually towards the sun, but I could be wrong.)

These sorts of arbitrary definitions work the same as any other definition: Get into widest use possible the quickest, and that'll typically become the accepted standard. Isn't that what most of these patents are all about... getting your standard widely used and then charging for it?

(Newton should have patented his algorithms. Not only would have have made a mint, I would probably not have had to learn calculus due to the university not wanting to pay the licensing fees!)

Re:Arbitrary poles.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, many maps of Southern hemisphere nations do have South on top. You can probably Google for a few ;)

It's a geopolitical tradition to centre your nation on the map, after all ;P

Re:Arbitrary poles.

[17028]

If you look at the oldest maps from Europe, they actually are inverted, i.e. south is at the top of the map.

Why can't you run a fiber optic cable down there?

[citanon]

Or a copper line in a side pipe?

OK...

[Sj0]

Where did I leave those supergreenhouse gases? Time for us to head up there and terraform that sucka. I want to rape and pillage 2 planets at once!

Then there's Uranus ...

[grunherz]

... which has an East Pole and a West Pole.

Actually it just has an axial tilt of 97.86 degrees. I dunno if astronomers refer to the poles by North/South or East/West.

The latter would make more sense though.

Re:Then there's Uranus ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

From the frame of reference of Uranus, we have East/West poles.

haha silly eurotrash

[Anonymous Coward]

We knew about this water years ago in the US...

It's only news to you!

Re:haha silly eurotrash

[Anonymous Coward]

Only hydrogen has been detected on Mars before. Ha Ha Ha, this is only what you knew.

We now know that the signatures of hydrogen are from water and we will soon give you endless pictures from our stereo camera up to 12 meters of surface resolution, and show you, up close and personal, that there are actually river beds as well. If Martians are there, we can see them waving at us in full colour and in 3D!

But this is what you could only speculate. We will give you that as a fact if it is really a scientific fact. No room for speculations here :)

Re:haha silly eurotrash

[Anonymous Coward]

read the link euromonkey.

Re:haha silly eurotrash

[lieven_dekeyser]

just quoting CNN here:
NASA's Mars Odysse (...) picked up signs of hydrogen at the south pole, the first indication that water ice might be found there.

Martian defences

[hpulley]

Beagle distracted them for a while but it looks like they've gotten to Spirit now. Landing Opportunity on the other side of the planet was a masterstroke. Let's hope they only have a limited supply of space-probe destroyers and it takes them a while to get over there...

Note: They specified NASA

[Anonymous Coward]

The Europeans just keep wrecking it for the Americans... Better dollar (er.. Euro), finding water, preventing Americans from stuffing their faces...

You idiot

[soft_guy]

The check for sun usage has to be made out to Montgomery Burns!

Re:You idiot

[comedian23]

LOL, I forgot my Simpsons.

poles

[kels]

The answer is that the North Martian Pole is the one pointing in much the same way as the Earth's North Pole.

Not quite. While it's true that Mars' north pole points in the same general direction as Earth's, north is determined by the direction of spin, not the magnetic field or the orientation of the axis. For example, Venus doesn't have a magnetic field to speak of either, but it is considered to have retrograde rotation because it spins in the opposite sense of most of the other planets. The sun flips its magnetic field every 11 years, so the north magnetic pole swaps places, but the north rotational pole does not. The north pole is the one about which the planet seems to rotate counterclockwise (right hand rule).

oh crap.

[z00ky]

i'm afraid the bush administration will make up some bs claim that since there's water there, there must be oil, and then will give NASA the money the schools should have, and he'll send up Dick Cheney and the EXXON Execs. To explore for oil up there. this is not good.

Re:oh crap.

[mOdQuArK!]

he'll send up Dick Cheney and the EXXON Execs

Hey, as long as it's a single one-way trip (with no additional supply runs), I'm willing to spend my tax dollars on it.

Re:oh crap.

[z00ky]

heh. amen brotha.

one thing though, i wouldn't mind the supply runs, as long as they were just pretzels.

ICE?

[iron_weasel]

Well let me get this straight. We had pictures from before of ice. Our top guys looked and confirmed it. ICE at the lower polar caps. The english took some pixs and said ICE.

Yet we spend millions and millions to send a tonka truck there to muddle in the dirt and all to find out "Is there water here?"

Who missed the Power Point Presentation and forgot to remember the slide which said"Folks here is ICE on mars."

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Why go? To guarantee our survival, some say.

[TilJ]

I've always like Heinlein's viewpoint (as expressed by Lazarus Long): Because we need frontiers to improve ourselves.

There's an interesting bit where he explains after several rounds of successive colonization the descendents of those who left earth view those who stayed behind as generates since they were unable to evolve.

NASA says it's Software.

[Odonian]

According to this, NASA is now saying the problem was apparently some sort of crash caused by a recent command sequence they sent. http://news4colorado.com/nationworld/topstories_st ory_023135646.html Sounds like they are in debug mode now. And you thought VNC from home was slow. ;-)

Re:NASA says it's Software.

[LZ_Mordan]

you kidding? Their software is possibly buggy? OMFG. Time they switch to Java.

$800 millions hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

and they didnt build in a logfile to review all the error messages? Look like NASA should hire software QA personel to test out the software before launch.

This is the problem with industries, software get written, unit test by engineer and never gone through full system test by another group to fully verify the system functions

No

[KnightStalker]

Mars Express used a *different* indirect measurement and confirmed the results of the previous measurement. Unless you think it landed on the planet, scraped up some ice, and measured the melting point? Tasted it? It's an orbiter. How could it possibly detect anything on the surface *directly*? (This is somewhat more direct I suppose since it's measuring the spectra of water itself rather than just hydrogen.) Even the Viking orbiters detected water vapor in the Martian atmosphere -- actually I think it's been done from Earth. Semantics, maybe but it's all indirect. My point was that we already know there is water on Mars.

BTW, this has nothing to do with US vs. Europe dick-measuring. You ought to relax. (And anyway we need something to make us feel better. Europe has all the cool particle accelerators.)

FALSE!

[kippy]

People's memories are so short.

Re:FALSE!

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

This isn't the first time this guy has been caught posting false info. You ought to hear the shit he spouts about the US.

How does the data get here?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does the data get from Spirit to the public? Is there a primary group of people that see the transmission first, then pass it on? Is there any possiblity of anyone but NASA picking up the signal from the rover?

I haven't seen this question asked, but I'm curious.

I found out why Spirit was not communicating

[Liem Bahneman]

JPL released some of the early data in the first 10 minute burst from Spirit:

Spirit Error.

Dude,

[2names]

the Government has a Mars rover that runs on water. On water, man!!

Old news...

[hemanman]

I submitted this story earlier today, but it got rejected?!?

WTF is wrong with you?

-H

Spirit lives!

[Cat_Byte]

Spirit sent diagnostic data for 20 minutes this morning. I'm not sure why it's not on slashdot yet since it happened 8 hours ago.

Just out of curiosity..

[firew0lfz]

Is it possible to get one of the orbiters to take an overhead picture of the rovers, just to see what the enviroment they're in looks like? Or is the atmosphere too thick for that? Was curious, would look up info, but its Friday and I'm brain dead already...

Really? Always expected?

[2marcus]

Yes, water is a thermodynamic result of combining water and oxygen. And in the early history of Mars, one would have expected large quantities of O and H to form H2O. However, just because water is formed, doesn't mean it hangs around.

Reaction with iron, or photodisassociation, can produce H2. H2 has this annoying habit, in low gravity situations, of escaping to space. See "hydrodynamic escape". Alternatively, water can bind to metals or form other compounds that make it rather useless.

So the question is: how much water is left, and how accessible is it? And accessible water (in the form of ice) in the poles - that is a useful and interesting result. (though the fact that they discovered water at the other pole last year makes this year's discovery less exciting).

And the other question is - when/for how long did liquid water exist on the surface? That's why Spirit is trying to show that it is in a lakebed, and not just a meteor crater... if _liquid_ water existed, then maybe life existed.

-Marcus

manifest desitiny redux?

[Anonymous Coward]

my rant: I'm utterly stunned by those who question the merits of manned space flight and exploration. robotic devices only make sense if they are the vanguard of exploration and scientific research beyond Earth.

Is it a waste of resources to provide student loans to people studying astronomy or basket weaving?.

And what about the costs? Cost benefit analysis to justify exploration is a foolish arguement. look at the amount of money, attention and resources our society dedicates to professional sports. where's the utility in that? entertainment value you say? well then a few more billion to entertain mankind with space exploration is worth it...mind you, taxpayers subsidize sports stadium projects with billions in subsidies every decade -- more than it would cost to send a few golfers to mars for a quick tourney!

give me a break. spaceward ho!

NASA should rstart esearch in stem cells

[LZ_Mordan]

Failure after failure. Spirit is doomed. Why not spending money at home on issues that really MATTER in the short term???

Re:NASA should rstart esearch in stem cells

[Anonymous Coward]

because that would make them shortsighted.

Re:JPL has an update: 20min data session rcat 0830

[bar-agent]

Damn. There goes my joke about "Spirit is willing, but the dish is weak."

Ah well. Maybe that is for the best... :)

Re:Why go? To guarantee our survival, some say.

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Human expansion in outer space will be driven by vastly different reasons, than those on earth. People in the past expanded mainly due to food and lack of land. I don't see these two problems causing the expansion into space.

When it comes to food, most of the hunger problems are caused by discrepancy in distribution. For instance, the world has enough food to feed everyone. But it doesn't happen. The reason is because rich countries have a ton of food, and also end up wasting a lot of it. The poor countries, in contrast, don't have enough but waste little.

So if food was one of the main reasons for driving expansion/colonialism in the past, going to outer space wouldn't really solve that. First of all, there isn't any food in space. There are no plants there, no animals, etc. Even if you can take them to say Mars, it is questionable how easy it will be grow them. So if someone is hungry they are not going to go to space. Second, it is probably cheaper to redistribute food or to improve food output on earth (and hence supplying the hungry) than it is to colonize Mars. By colonize, I mean an actual establishment of a large colony; scientific outposts (as in Antartica) don't count. Overall, food will not be the reason.

The other reason is space/territory. This is a more likely reason to colonize other planets but I don't see it happening now. Again, this reason likely isn't a big enough reason. Unlike humans in the past, modern humans have developed techniques to increase density. More people can live in a given area now than at any time in the past. Nowadays, you can easily build a skyscraper or an apartment building. The ancient humans, in contrast, really couldn't build high story buildings. That's one reason they had to keep expanding. In addition, even if countries had massive space problems (some of the highly populated countries may) it is probably easier and less costly to expand to oceans (buildings in the sea) than it is to go to space.

However, there are new reasons people may expand to another planet. If someone deploys a biological weapon with no cure (it's pretty much a given that biological weapons have no cure... if they did, they aren't much of a weapon), I can see people fleeing to another planet. Or if some disease strikes earth (similar to the biological weapon), people may be forced to leave earth. Imminent threat of an asteroid strike or something like that may also cause people to leave (but the probability of such event is very low).

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:To my mother, my dog, and clowns

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever modded this is a fascist. These negative creeps, morons in the head, just don't get it and like to spread their mod wrath on everything... such a David Bowie reference when the subject is specifically about terraforming and finding water on MARS is brilliant. A+

Re:TRUE!

[Anonymous Coward]

whera are the pics ?

both of shouth or north to confirm that ?

ppl are saying that there is/was water on mars for centuries

now we have a picture that says so, blue over brown thats water!! now its confirmed!

Please wake up from the capitalism.

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies which is the ultimate money seeker doesn't help human for better living.

Actually research is a long-term exercise

[HuguesT]

Research, and particularly fundamental research, does generate profits, in fact it is one of the most profitable way of investing money for the long term.

Sure short-term you are not looking at profits, but mid to long-term, the rewards of research are enormous. Also money needs to be invested in it in large amounts.

Just think of all the stuff surrounding you in your home or office, from the carpets to the paint on the ceilings via all the equipment you use every day, including your automobile.

Very little of that existed 100 years ago, and would have been impossible to make without the investment in fundamental research of the past centuries.

Re:Actually research is a long-term exercise

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I think you would have a hard time justifying that to a capitalist. I'm not a capitalist so I'm in favour of govt funding for schools, libraries, theoretic research, etc. However, I doubt you can concretely justify that to a capitalist. Some of the examples you used are really due to private investment--not public. A capitalist will first ask for actual profits made from investment. For example, can you actually justify that NASA should receive its billions? Second, I don't know how you are going to prove that the private sector cannot do it any better under capitalism. One of the arguments by capitalists is not so much that research shouldn't be done but rather, private entites (like corporations, private citizens, non-profit organizations, etc) should fund them.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Hehe. Genius.

[Query_Squidier]

Nice.

Money well spent

[Peaceful_Patriot]

In all seriousness what reason do we have to go to Mars?

Here's a reason I don't hear mentioned much: The benefits of space research help us here on Earth everyday. Thousands of ideas from Microwave Ovens to Cell Phones were first hatched by scientists working on space research. Research and exploration bring unexpected benefits which we cannot even imagine at the time.

Rover is coming back online

[io333]

linky

2004 News Releases

Artist's concept of Mars Exploration Rover

Related Links:
+ NASA's rover page
Mars Exploration Rover Mission Status
January 23, 2004
5 pm PST

NASA's Spirit rover did not go to sleep today even after ground controllers sent commands twice for it to do so.

Shortly before noon, controllers were surprised to receive a relay of data from Spirit via the Mars Odyssey orbiter. Spirit sent 73 megabits at a rate of 128 kilobits per second. The transmission included power subsystem engineering data, no science data, and several frames of "fill data." Fill data are sets of intentionally random numbers that do not provide information.

Spirit had not communicated successfully through Odyssey since the rover's communications difficulties began on Wednesday.

Spirit's twin, Opportunity, will reach Mars at 05:05 Universal Time on Jan. 25 (12:05 a.m. Sunday EST or 9:05 p.m. Saturday PST) at a landing site on the opposite side of the planet from Spirit.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, manages the Mars Exploration Rover project for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. Additional information about the project is available from JPL at http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov and from Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., at http://athena.cornell.edu.

YES!

[TitanOfire]

Finally they found what might be water on Mars! Now after being worried for all these years i can finally get on with my life. I guess I'll have to move out of the basement. And I'll sell all of my maps of Mars because I've been following the search for water so closely. It's not like theres any water on this giant dirtball controlled by psichotic apes.

Re:Why go? To guarantee our survival, some say.

[Mal-2]

Colonizing other planets will solve the "all eggs in one basket" issue, provided they are self-sufficient, but it does almost nothing for overpopulation. How many people can you cram in a ship bound for another planet, and how many can you pack in a ship headed to, say, Greenland? Greenland doesn't force you to generate your own air, either.

There is plenty of room left on the planet. Most of it is, at present, uninhabitable. There is plenty of room left on other planets, but it too is presently uninhabitable, and it costs many orders of magnitude more to get there and MAKE it inhabitable. This is not to argue that it shouldn't be done (it should), but that it won't directly affect overpopulation. It will provide some insurance against the catastrophic effects of overpopulation (or any other cataclysm), and in this case even a little isnurance is far better than none at all.

Think of a colony as offsite backup. It doesn't solve the problem that your hard drive is ful of porn.

Mal-2

Re:Feared, no. Respected, possibly...

[Gordonjcp]

than with mad mouthing the terrorists, themselves.
"Mad mouthing", great tyop. +1, Love it...

Re:heh (what reason to go to mars)

[Anonymous Coward]

DUH! Penal Colony!