Firstly I'd like to say that I feel your pain. I've also been struggling with "burnout", and I think you've hit the nail on the head (as well as the parent).
What I've seen happen a lot is that right about the time someone starts getting burned out they're pushed into management whether they like it or not. For people that don't mind all of the political backstabbing that comes with working in a corporate environment this seems to mostly work well, but for people like me that would rather work on computers than talk to upper management (kissing ass, making deals that fuck the employees, or even worse, having to fire someone that does quality work because they disagree with upper management or whatever), it's almost a death knell.
As far as solutions go, good luck. I've been resisting further education until I have another field that I'm interested in (no point in racking up a new set of loans that won't do me any good) and have instead relegated myself to studying on my own until i find a niche. Currently? Language, since I've decided that I'd rather translate what someone else says than think for myself:D It's not working for me yet...don't speak well enough to translate yet, but it's a goal. (And IMO, a far better goal than setting my sights on the next great technology that will be defunct and irrelevant in 6 months...my brain is already full of 20 years of tech and I doubt that any more will fit)
No, I don't think it's ridiculous at all, and it's even LESS ridiculous because this is a Government Agency. There's no excuse for the staff that they send out into the public (especially in light of the recent spying bullshit) should be at least nominally coached on their own defense. Keep in mind, also, that these aren't people that were called back after submitting resumes - these are people who went to school and were no doubt informed at the last minute that the NSA was on campus and looking for workers. The NSA? Yeah, they knew they were going to be there well in advance (and I'm sorry, but a college is probably the worst place to go to find pro-Government supporters during the BEST of times, which this isn't). A recruiter for a government agency doesn't have "another" job....these aren't like the recruiters that scour Dice or Monster...these are people that are paid for the sole function of headhunting for the NSA. They don't need to know about the FBI or any other agency...literally, their job is the FACE of the "company" that they're hiring for.
Of course, this also completely ignores the fact that...well shit, what in the fuck were they thinking starting some sort of recruitment drive after the last two weeks anyway? Wouldn't the BEST thing for them to do be to keep a low profile? I sure as hell wouldn't stick my neck out in a hurry if I realized that most of the world was pissed at my company...I'd at least wait until my company has either 1) Found some means to justify their douchy behavior (like maybe giving some details on what it's actually accomplished, not that I think that would do much good, but it would be a start) or 2) made some significant donations to worthy causes to "balance" the douchy behavior (No, I don't think this is right either, but it's the way that most people think so it's expected) or 3) wait until enough time has passed so that most of the public has forgotten (American memories are about as good as a sugar carving in a monsoon, you can't tell me they couldn't have rescheduled for a few weeks down the road when we're all focused on the NEXT crisis).
No, they were stupid and compounded stupid with stupid and then started crying when people called them on it. I don't feel sorry for them even a little.
Isn't it the job of prospective employees to ask questions about their potential employer? I know that if I were to work for the NSA again I would probably ask far better questions than the first time around...
What a load of bullshit. Nobody is going to suspend a goddamned thing.
The US has been watching Europe and vice-versa...the only people that have been ignorant of any of these dealings are the public. Governments create one set of rules for the public and a whole 'nother set of secret rules for Governments...the leaks have only pointed out what most of us have already known. Nobody is going to "suspend" anything, they'll just restrict who has access to it until they can get their secrets under control again.
the Vietnam protests are a bit before my time...and I don't think those were effective either..
You're wrong.
Lyndon Johnson changed his plans based in no small part on
the discontent in the US relative to the mess in Viet Nam.
I was THERE. I was in the protests. I saw change happen, and I
also saw that liar Nixon leave office.
Change can happen. It is idiots like you who dismiss the idea of
making an effort who are the real enemy.
Idiots like me? Perhaps you'll want to reread the post you're replying to and realize that there are question marks throughout. I have dismissed nothing, and have instead asked for legitimate alternatives. This crap up there ^ ? Yeah, that's not helping either. Your generation made no great leaps in fixing these problems, and contributed largely to the quagmire of bullshit that we're trying to wade through now. As far as I can see, this up-coming generation isn't going to have a choice but to deal with it. Do *you* feel confident that they can do it alone? So I'm sorry if my ignorance is so offensive to you Mr...oh...Anonymous Coward. Way to stand up for your rights.
Innocent people should not have to sacrifice their freedom or privacy to stop the 'bad guys.' This is exactly the same mentality that leads to people getting groped at airports, getting spied on by the government, and sent away to free speech zones. I don't care who they want to protect us from; don't punish innocent people to do it.
This is exactly what the 4th Amendment was supposed to guard against, and pretty much the same reason. We have a phrase "Innocent until proven guilty", yet this type of tracking insists the opposite.
Yeah, I doubt that emigrating you Europe would be helpful for anyone. If people decide to trade the ropes for chains that's their own decision, but if you think that Europe is any more "free" you should probably do a bit more research before making travel plans.
"....honestly...I've been doing the best that I can to be the most moral and ethical of people. It was someone elses fault. I didn't know about it at the time. "
So which politician has big enough balls to stand up and loudly proclaim "LIAR! YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!!!"?
Then why don't you enlighten us? It's all fine and dandy to tell us that what OWS did wasn't "trying"...what would you suggest? How exactly does a movement like that gain momentum in the first place? While I'm not necessarily young, the Vietnam protests are a bit before my time...and I don't think those were effective either.
So how, exactly, do the citizens effect change? We've been bitching about the exact same shit for the last 3 elections - that doesn't seem to be getting the job done. OWS made a stink for a few months, and managed to get some attention, but did anything change? I still don't see many bankers in jail, and the last time I checked BOA was still in business. So what do you suggest?
Of course, the "easy" suggestion is to "take up arms and fight the injustice"...how long do those folks last? A couple of days, tops, and they never get an opportunity to voice their impetus, leaving the public believing that they were just a run-of-the-mill terrorist. So what next? We can't exactly have secret meetings anymore, not with how much tracking the government is doing.
No, I think that OWS had the right idea, but it just never caught on. Why not? I couldn't say...if I could, I'd be trying to help from that side. I suspect that most of us are apathetic about our futures because we can't see a way for us to win...all we can see are ever increasing losses with no gains, which I'm sure was the goal of the US Gubmint to begin with. When the options are "leave things as they are when we can at least eat and have some semblance of existence" or "get loud and violent and die quickly and quietly" the former is going to get the American vote 9 times out of 10. Hell, probably more often than that...if we had even 10% of our population taking up arms someone would have to notice.
In a Nation of apathetic (or just pathetic) slackers, good luck with that. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that the end result of Snowdens release(s) is ultimately what the public decides...but remember: We are the fattest, laziest, and dumbest people on the planet. Do you know why more people don't stand up to the Government? It's because the public doesn't give two shits about what the Government does as long as the Simpsons stay on the air. They aren't even aware enough to realize that the television shows are managed by a completely different department.
And in the end they'll replace the program with something that even fewer people are aware of or have access to, with proper checks in place for their contractors. We'll be back to "business as usual" within a year...assuming, of course, that there's not already something in place that we are still unaware of.
Hrm...what about it? They don't seem to be terribly active anymore. Maybe after they were swarmed by the homeless people they gave up? Maybe they gave up because they needed an income to be able to be comfortably homeless themselves?
Exactly - wasn't this the reason it took about 8 years too long for television/movie executives to start trying to exploit the 'net? They fought it and fought it and fought it and begrudgingly joined in when they realized that their businesses were failing. Let 'em go fuck themselves and see how much money they make.
Well, to be fair, while their magic isn't anything to fear, they have better lawyers than the WBC. If I wasn't already on their shitlist I'd probably want to post as AC as well.
Jebus, we've heard this story before with MICROSOFT. Talk about tarnished reputations - their Java fiascos, refusing to allow other browsers to be installed, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows NT, and Vista. We're hearing it with Windows 8 as well.
Face it, "reputation" is only significant with a very small portion of society, and unfortunately those people don't amount to much compared to the vast quantities of people that either can't be troubled enough to care about it, or people that just want their fuckin' toys and don't give two shits what it costs (speaking financially as well as privacy-wise). They have enough money to float for a few months, by which point we'll be pissed at someone else and will conveniently forget about Microsoft's transgressions.
A random internet stranger that claims to know more than the rest of us, or the Government institutions that we know will not hesitate to lie, cheat, steal, swindle, and torture to get their own way. Decisions decisions...
You're making a false correlation with the parties vs the truth. Just because someone is Christian doesn't mean they don't lie, cheat, steal or murder. Libertarians, Green and Pirate parties are people, just like us (and Conservatives and Republicans), they are just as capable (and willing) to lie to get what they want. They are not morally superior simply because you agree with their message - in fact, it's likely that they're presenting their message so that you WILL agree with them, not from any personally held opinion.
This of course, doesn't mean that all of the members of all of the parties lies - just that they're capable of it and a label isn't going to change that. I felt that Ron Paul was a pretty cool guy...until I saw some of his own craziness and flip-flopping (I want to liberate the US so that people are free...except women - they aren't allowed to control their own bodies). Nobody (that I've seen) is exempt from this. The entire nature of politics is a popularity contest, and if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of my life it's that people who want to be popular will give up nearly everything (including their own dignity and morality) to get it. Remember high school? Yeah. These assholes haven't grown up yet.
The NSA has an (unproven, but well-known) track record of conducting industrial espionage against befriended countries, and spying on any foreigners is apparently considered perfectly legal and constitutional in the US.
Nope. The NSA's policies make it very clear that they are not allowed to record data on Americans, and on "friendlies". What they've done is break the law in a very big way - as I'm sure they've been doing for the last 100 years or so.
When I was in the service I remember an older ranking officer mentioning that in the late 1980's they had been "unofficially" listening to all of our "friends" - England, France, etc...the folks that we probably shouldn't be focused on. Of course, he made it sound like the listening was "accidental", but he definitely implied that the accidental deserved quotes around it.
The fact that other countries might attempt to do the same is no excuse.
You're absolutely correct. The US is touted as being morally and ethically superior (we know it's bullshit, but go with it). If we were truly morally OR ethically superior, we wouldn't have to resort to these levels of deception and intrusion.
The real problem is that all the data that is collected is already used to undermine constitutional rights. There are quite persistent and credible rumors that when e.g. the BND wants some data on a German they may not obtain legally (according to German law), they'll just ask a US agency. I'm pretty sure this also works the other way around.
Things might look different if the people in power would really endorse democratic principles and human rights, which they don't.
Absolutely - and something else that a lot of people don't realize is that we have 3 different agencies that are all supposed to do one job, and they really aren't supposed to talk to the other agencies (NSA, FBI, CIA). I guarantee that they do, in fact, share information, and that they do all sorts of little "favors" for each other to skirt the law.
Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty cool though.
And this is why I refuse to move north of Portland. I tried Washington once - for a couple of decades...I was thoroughly unimpressed with the political environment.
A quick glance shows me that Touchstone is part of Disney, and they are a pretty big movie company...if you own movies, you probably own some of theirs.
And this illustrates the fundamental problem with the "take my business elsewhere" suggestion: I can boycott Disney, but unless I happen to know that Touchstone or ABC are a part of Disney, I may still be giving them my business. It's like last year when people were bitching about the factories in China and how we all need our precious iPhones - only to find out that the Androids, Dells, and damn near everything else that we work with are manufactured in the same facility (not sure if 'droids or Dells are built there or not - not relevant to my point).
Until there is an independent company out there producing decent material - and that company is forthright about who owns what - anywhere you go is likely going to further contribute to the problem (regardless of the problem you're experiencing, be it the MAFIAA, oil companies, grocery stores, etc)
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Firstly I'd like to say that I feel your pain. I've also been struggling with "burnout", and I think you've hit the nail on the head (as well as the parent).
:D It's not working for me yet...don't speak well enough to translate yet, but it's a goal. (And IMO, a far better goal than setting my sights on the next great technology that will be defunct and irrelevant in 6 months...my brain is already full of 20 years of tech and I doubt that any more will fit)
What I've seen happen a lot is that right about the time someone starts getting burned out they're pushed into management whether they like it or not. For people that don't mind all of the political backstabbing that comes with working in a corporate environment this seems to mostly work well, but for people like me that would rather work on computers than talk to upper management (kissing ass, making deals that fuck the employees, or even worse, having to fire someone that does quality work because they disagree with upper management or whatever), it's almost a death knell.
As far as solutions go, good luck. I've been resisting further education until I have another field that I'm interested in (no point in racking up a new set of loans that won't do me any good) and have instead relegated myself to studying on my own until i find a niche. Currently? Language, since I've decided that I'd rather translate what someone else says than think for myself
No, I don't think it's ridiculous at all, and it's even LESS ridiculous because this is a Government Agency. There's no excuse for the staff that they send out into the public (especially in light of the recent spying bullshit) should be at least nominally coached on their own defense. Keep in mind, also, that these aren't people that were called back after submitting resumes - these are people who went to school and were no doubt informed at the last minute that the NSA was on campus and looking for workers. The NSA? Yeah, they knew they were going to be there well in advance (and I'm sorry, but a college is probably the worst place to go to find pro-Government supporters during the BEST of times, which this isn't). A recruiter for a government agency doesn't have "another" job....these aren't like the recruiters that scour Dice or Monster...these are people that are paid for the sole function of headhunting for the NSA. They don't need to know about the FBI or any other agency...literally, their job is the FACE of the "company" that they're hiring for.
Of course, this also completely ignores the fact that...well shit, what in the fuck were they thinking starting some sort of recruitment drive after the last two weeks anyway? Wouldn't the BEST thing for them to do be to keep a low profile? I sure as hell wouldn't stick my neck out in a hurry if I realized that most of the world was pissed at my company...I'd at least wait until my company has either 1) Found some means to justify their douchy behavior (like maybe giving some details on what it's actually accomplished, not that I think that would do much good, but it would be a start) or 2) made some significant donations to worthy causes to "balance" the douchy behavior (No, I don't think this is right either, but it's the way that most people think so it's expected) or 3) wait until enough time has passed so that most of the public has forgotten (American memories are about as good as a sugar carving in a monsoon, you can't tell me they couldn't have rescheduled for a few weeks down the road when we're all focused on the NEXT crisis).
No, they were stupid and compounded stupid with stupid and then started crying when people called them on it. I don't feel sorry for them even a little.
Isn't it the job of prospective employees to ask questions about their potential employer? I know that if I were to work for the NSA again I would probably ask far better questions than the first time around...
What a load of bullshit. Nobody is going to suspend a goddamned thing.
The US has been watching Europe and vice-versa...the only people that have been ignorant of any of these dealings are the public. Governments create one set of rules for the public and a whole 'nother set of secret rules for Governments...the leaks have only pointed out what most of us have already known. Nobody is going to "suspend" anything, they'll just restrict who has access to it until they can get their secrets under control again.
the Vietnam protests are a bit before my time...and I don't think those were effective either..
You're wrong.
Lyndon Johnson changed his plans based in no small part on the discontent in the US relative to the mess in Viet Nam.
I was THERE. I was in the protests. I saw change happen, and I also saw that liar Nixon leave office.
Change can happen. It is idiots like you who dismiss the idea of making an effort who are the real enemy.
Idiots like me? Perhaps you'll want to reread the post you're replying to and realize that there are question marks throughout. I have dismissed nothing, and have instead asked for legitimate alternatives. This crap up there ^ ? Yeah, that's not helping either. Your generation made no great leaps in fixing these problems, and contributed largely to the quagmire of bullshit that we're trying to wade through now. As far as I can see, this up-coming generation isn't going to have a choice but to deal with it. Do *you* feel confident that they can do it alone? So I'm sorry if my ignorance is so offensive to you Mr...oh...Anonymous Coward. Way to stand up for your rights.
Innocent people should not have to sacrifice their freedom or privacy to stop the 'bad guys.' This is exactly the same mentality that leads to people getting groped at airports, getting spied on by the government, and sent away to free speech zones. I don't care who they want to protect us from; don't punish innocent people to do it.
This is exactly what the 4th Amendment was supposed to guard against, and pretty much the same reason. We have a phrase "Innocent until proven guilty", yet this type of tracking insists the opposite.
Yeah, I doubt that emigrating you Europe would be helpful for anyone. If people decide to trade the ropes for chains that's their own decision, but if you think that Europe is any more "free" you should probably do a bit more research before making travel plans.
"....honestly...I've been doing the best that I can to be the most moral and ethical of people. It was someone elses fault. I didn't know about it at the time. "
So which politician has big enough balls to stand up and loudly proclaim "LIAR! YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!!!"?
Yeah, I didn't think there were any...
Then why don't you enlighten us? It's all fine and dandy to tell us that what OWS did wasn't "trying"...what would you suggest? How exactly does a movement like that gain momentum in the first place? While I'm not necessarily young, the Vietnam protests are a bit before my time...and I don't think those were effective either.
So how, exactly, do the citizens effect change? We've been bitching about the exact same shit for the last 3 elections - that doesn't seem to be getting the job done. OWS made a stink for a few months, and managed to get some attention, but did anything change? I still don't see many bankers in jail, and the last time I checked BOA was still in business. So what do you suggest?
Of course, the "easy" suggestion is to "take up arms and fight the injustice"...how long do those folks last? A couple of days, tops, and they never get an opportunity to voice their impetus, leaving the public believing that they were just a run-of-the-mill terrorist. So what next? We can't exactly have secret meetings anymore, not with how much tracking the government is doing.
No, I think that OWS had the right idea, but it just never caught on. Why not? I couldn't say...if I could, I'd be trying to help from that side. I suspect that most of us are apathetic about our futures because we can't see a way for us to win...all we can see are ever increasing losses with no gains, which I'm sure was the goal of the US Gubmint to begin with. When the options are "leave things as they are when we can at least eat and have some semblance of existence" or "get loud and violent and die quickly and quietly" the former is going to get the American vote 9 times out of 10. Hell, probably more often than that...if we had even 10% of our population taking up arms someone would have to notice.
In a Nation of apathetic (or just pathetic) slackers, good luck with that. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that the end result of Snowdens release(s) is ultimately what the public decides...but remember: We are the fattest, laziest, and dumbest people on the planet. Do you know why more people don't stand up to the Government? It's because the public doesn't give two shits about what the Government does as long as the Simpsons stay on the air. They aren't even aware enough to realize that the television shows are managed by a completely different department.
And in the end they'll replace the program with something that even fewer people are aware of or have access to, with proper checks in place for their contractors. We'll be back to "business as usual" within a year...assuming, of course, that there's not already something in place that we are still unaware of.
Hrm...what about it? They don't seem to be terribly active anymore. Maybe after they were swarmed by the homeless people they gave up? Maybe they gave up because they needed an income to be able to be comfortably homeless themselves?
Exactly - wasn't this the reason it took about 8 years too long for television/movie executives to start trying to exploit the 'net? They fought it and fought it and fought it and begrudgingly joined in when they realized that their businesses were failing. Let 'em go fuck themselves and see how much money they make.
Well, to be fair, while their magic isn't anything to fear, they have better lawyers than the WBC. If I wasn't already on their shitlist I'd probably want to post as AC as well.
...you only get data from Amazon if you PAY for it!!!
Jebus, we've heard this story before with MICROSOFT. Talk about tarnished reputations - their Java fiascos, refusing to allow other browsers to be installed, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows NT, and Vista. We're hearing it with Windows 8 as well.
Face it, "reputation" is only significant with a very small portion of society, and unfortunately those people don't amount to much compared to the vast quantities of people that either can't be troubled enough to care about it, or people that just want their fuckin' toys and don't give two shits what it costs (speaking financially as well as privacy-wise). They have enough money to float for a few months, by which point we'll be pissed at someone else and will conveniently forget about Microsoft's transgressions.
It's not called "looting" if you have permission.
The one that isn't a *confirmed* liar, of course ;)
A random internet stranger that claims to know more than the rest of us, or the Government institutions that we know will not hesitate to lie, cheat, steal, swindle, and torture to get their own way. Decisions decisions...
Doh! Well, I don't think the two Washingtons are all that different then :p
This of course, doesn't mean that all of the members of all of the parties lies - just that they're capable of it and a label isn't going to change that. I felt that Ron Paul was a pretty cool guy...until I saw some of his own craziness and flip-flopping (I want to liberate the US so that people are free...except women - they aren't allowed to control their own bodies). Nobody (that I've seen) is exempt from this. The entire nature of politics is a popularity contest, and if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of my life it's that people who want to be popular will give up nearly everything (including their own dignity and morality) to get it. Remember high school? Yeah. These assholes haven't grown up yet.
True, but the rest of the world isn't important when we're talking about 'Murica!
The NSA has an (unproven, but well-known) track record of conducting industrial espionage against befriended countries, and spying on any foreigners is apparently considered perfectly legal and constitutional in the US.
Nope. The NSA's policies make it very clear that they are not allowed to record data on Americans, and on "friendlies". What they've done is break the law in a very big way - as I'm sure they've been doing for the last 100 years or so.
When I was in the service I remember an older ranking officer mentioning that in the late 1980's they had been "unofficially" listening to all of our "friends" - England, France, etc...the folks that we probably shouldn't be focused on. Of course, he made it sound like the listening was "accidental", but he definitely implied that the accidental deserved quotes around it.
The fact that other countries might attempt to do the same is no excuse.
You're absolutely correct. The US is touted as being morally and ethically superior (we know it's bullshit, but go with it). If we were truly morally OR ethically superior, we wouldn't have to resort to these levels of deception and intrusion.
The real problem is that all the data that is collected is already used to undermine constitutional rights. There are quite persistent and credible rumors that when e.g. the BND wants some data on a German they may not obtain legally (according to German law), they'll just ask a US agency. I'm pretty sure this also works the other way around.
Things might look different if the people in power would really endorse democratic principles and human rights, which they don't.
Absolutely - and something else that a lot of people don't realize is that we have 3 different agencies that are all supposed to do one job, and they really aren't supposed to talk to the other agencies (NSA, FBI, CIA). I guarantee that they do, in fact, share information, and that they do all sorts of little "favors" for each other to skirt the law.
Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty cool though.
And this is why I refuse to move north of Portland. I tried Washington once - for a couple of decades...I was thoroughly unimpressed with the political environment.
Disney free? Are you sure? Are you really REALLY sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Disney
A quick glance shows me that Touchstone is part of Disney, and they are a pretty big movie company...if you own movies, you probably own some of theirs.
And this illustrates the fundamental problem with the "take my business elsewhere" suggestion: I can boycott Disney, but unless I happen to know that Touchstone or ABC are a part of Disney, I may still be giving them my business. It's like last year when people were bitching about the factories in China and how we all need our precious iPhones - only to find out that the Androids, Dells, and damn near everything else that we work with are manufactured in the same facility (not sure if 'droids or Dells are built there or not - not relevant to my point).
Until there is an independent company out there producing decent material - and that company is forthright about who owns what - anywhere you go is likely going to further contribute to the problem (regardless of the problem you're experiencing, be it the MAFIAA, oil companies, grocery stores, etc)