It's no accident that we're the first society to develop widespread ADD. The controversies shrouding this disorder aside, the very idea would have seemed absurd in the pre-electronic, pre-digital era. It was boredom and ignorance that was epidemic.
You mean that in the "pre-digital era" people actually had to *GASP* read books, or even go to plays?! My god, I feel really sorry for those poor bored people that only had 2000+ years of civilization to prevent boredom. Thank you, television and the internet, from sparing us from this awful fate!
Something similar happened in China. Starbucks recently opened in the Forbidden City, to the protests of nationalistic Chinese. Interestingly, they weren't protesting the 'commercialization' of the Forbidden City--God knows its commercial enough. What they were upset about was the fact it was an AMERICAN coffee chain. So they made them take their sign down. Don't assume an anti-McDonald attack is anti-commercialism, when more likely it is anti-Americanism.
Actually, most of the great Westerns were inspired/based on Japanese films--Mag. Seven from Seven Samurai and Fistful of Dollars from Yojimbo, to name a few. Then again, Kurosawa based some of his movies on English epics, such as King Lear. I think both the Westerns and the Japanese films are great examples of what can go right in cross-culture art!
Hell, lets do something about that great inhibitor of personal free and individual thinking--the wrist watch! Throw off your shackles, and refuse to be a slave to others notions of 'time'!
But as for gov't sponsored treatment of individuals, what do you call the 250+ years of slavery? That was supported for 250+ years by the American gov't (not just the South!) Remember, the Founding Fathers owned slaves...
Anyway, this wasn't a good defense, not really any defense at all. It was more along the lines of "People in glass houses." Sorry!
I live in the real world. I'd love to have peace and democracy everywhere, especially in China, but there are serious historical, economical, and social problems that will prevent that. So, I'll settle for the best in a bad situation. As for campaigning for change, go read the news about the protests that have broken out in the Chinese countryside about taxes. No, the Chinese are not afraid of protesting--farmers, miners, laid off workers have been doing so for some time. Yes, what the Chinese gov't did at Tiananmen was brutal. I'm not debating that. Given the situation, given the loss of life that would have resulted from political chaos, I found it a nessesary evil. Life sucks. Not to divert the topic, but the Chinese gov't is hardly the only brutal gov't in existence. The democratic US has committed some pretty heinous atrocities in its time. No Gun Ri? My Lai? How about wiping out millions of American Indians? How about arming Iraq to fight Iran? Just being a democracy doesn't make one perfect. The 'democratic' Nationalists (aka the "Good Guys") were juist as brutal if not more so than the CCP. If China was a democracy today, I don't think it would act any differant than it does now.
Not sure I grasp your argument about the economy, but doesn't this assume that there is no growth in industry first? China has had 8% GDP growth annually for the past 15 years or so. If there is growing demand for labor, wages would remain constant as long as this demand is met. This isn't just the gov't shuffling stuff around, but a combination of internal and foreign investment. China is Communist in name only. Pro-market Facism would probably be a better label. I think China will remain dependant on exports for awhile, but look at Japan--they built a modern economy almost entirely focused on them. Similar to Japan after WWII, China is growing from a pretty low position, so 8% GDP growth into the forseeable future isn't impossible. I agree that the biggest threat to growth are the vestiges of Communism, in this case the old State Owned Enterprises. Fortunately, the gov't is slowly tearing the SOEs down.
Okay, read my post, and notice where I said that Mao is one of the people that fucked the country over. I'm not whitewashing what the Chinese DID, I'm saying what the Chinese are DOING. For the same reason, I think Tiananmen was an unfortunate neccessity. The biggest killer in Chinese history is instability. Mao brought instability in a big way, and millions died. The reason the Chinese still support the CCP is that for the last 20 years, they have brought real stability to China, improving the lives of 1.2 billion people. Go look at what those activists at Tiananmen were saying by the very end. They wanted to overthrow the gov't. Yeah, nice idea, but how many more millions would have died if they'd been successful. Read Li Guanyu (pinyin spelling. Former prime minister of Singapore) on this--he is a remarkable realistic and intelligent man.
As for the Chinese not willing to critisize their gov't, go ride in a taxi--you'll hear more four-letter words about the gov't than you'd ever want to hear. They're not afraid to speak up against their gov't, but they honestly don't give a damn about human rights the way we westerners expect them to.
"As far as the average Chinese person's point of view, they'll believe whatever their goverment-owned press and their government-filtered Intranet (I don't even consider them to have Internet access) tells them to believe, and they'll lap it up."
Wrong. Look at the explosion in the school several weeks ago. The gov't came out with some bullshit story about a lone madman, and because of the public outcry, the gov't had to change their stance. The Chinese aren't idiots, and they certainly don't believe everything their gov't tells them. As for access to information, Chinese nationals in the US have access to CNN, NYT, etc--but they still side with China on this one. One good point of Katz article was that nationality trumps free information.
To be perfectly honest, I welcome China, not because they're a perfect utopian society, but because I honestly think they're doing the best that they can do, given the destruction of their country by the Japanese, and later Mao. China is not Taiwan--its 1.2 billion people, 80% of whom are still farmers (compare 2% in developed countries.) Yes, human rights are a problem, but China is improving. I've lived in Beijing, and never heard one person complaining about human rights. They complain about corruption, wealth disparity, pollution, taxes, getting into a good school, stuff that people all over the world worry about. And most important, they think the Communist Party is doing a pretty good job, all things considered. Not perfect, but a good deal better than most.
Taiwan has historically been a part of China. It was taken from them first by the Japanese, then by the fleeing Nationalists (who to my knowledge have never formally renounced their intention to reconquer China.) Interestingly, Taiwanese maps show China as the Qing Dynasty borders(c. 1911)--which include Tibet and MONGOLIA. So its not just the PRC. China has a historical sphere of power, and Tibet falls within that. A more interesting scenario is what if at some time in the future, China pulls a Japan and sends troops to SE Asia to 'protect the Chinese minorities' in certain countries. Far fetch, but interesting to contemplate...
Not going to happen. The Chinese have nothing to lose from holding out for an apology. WTO? Olympics? Do those really matter when your population would lynch you for giving in to "American Imperialsim"? Look at it from the average Chinese person's point of view. On of your embassys gets bomb under dubius circumstances by a country that is supplying arms to what you consider a renegade province. Then, while spying on you, there is a collision. Wouldn't you be pissed to? The Chinese people think that their gov't caved in way to easily over the embassy bombing, so their going to take out their frustration by holding on for a real apology. I wouldn't expect either side to give in too soon.
I think this whole thing is a moot point. Do the Germans actually think keeping people from reading 'Mein Kampf' is going to stop them from being racist? People are going to believe what they want to believe, free information or not. Propaganda only works if people want to believe it. The Chinese gov't can't incite the public if they aren't alread deeply suspicious of the American gov't to begin with. Ditto with America--the whole anti-China lobby in the US draws upon barely disguised 'Yellow Peril' theats dating back to the 50's. They wouldn't work if a large section of Americans weren't already paranoid about China.
I agree with you 100%. I think the recent US-China incident reinforces this. Naturally, I expected the Chinese to be pro-China. However, given their access to CNN, NYT, etc here in the US, I expected Chinese nationals in the US to take a more balanced view. Boy, was I wrong. My girlfiend (herself a Chinese citizen)works for the US-China Business Council, so I can get both sides. Even with access to the opposing US view, it seems most Chinese nationals in the US buy what the Chinese gov't is saying 100%, just like the Americans in China and out are buying what the US media says. I think this kind of blows apart the argument that increased access to information will somehow cause everyone to agree. Both groups have access to both sides of the story. Sad, but I think national, religious, ethnic backgrounds will always weigh much more than free access to information.
You raise an interesting point. True, a huge number of people did die under Mao, mainly because of the stupid economic actions of the gov't. However, the Chinese gov't now, while still being the CCP, is totally different--after Mao, the people that took over were the very ones that Mao had purged out of power (Deng Xiaoping et al.)If we're digging up history, what about the actions the US gov't took in killing Native Americans, endorsing slavery, etc. Or, closer to our time, Vietnam? I'm not anti-US gov't, but I'm not anti-Chinese gov't either. Both are equally legitimate, and reflect the values/wishes of the citizens of their country. (Yes, the Chinese support their gov't, just as much as most Americans support theirs.) Sorry if I'm a bit jumpy on this point, because most Americans tend to assume that democracy is what the Chinese want deep down inside, if they could only throw off their "despotic" gov't. This isn't the case. Even the biggest critics of the CCP (Falun Gong and the like) are anything but pro-democracy.
"Authoritarian governments always have a low murder rate -- because they aren't counting the murders they commit."
Hmm, don't you mean Texas?
Seriously, if you've never been to China, please refrain from commenting until you actually know something about the situation. You might be right, but until you have some first-hand experience I really do suggest you visit. Try living in a country before you criticize it. People tend to resepct informed opinions more.
And yes, I do have first hand experience. And no, no one got shot.
Sorry for the off-topic rant, but must American know shit about the cultures they always jump to criticize.
While I agree that an authoritarian measure isn't always the best solution, I'm not sure bully is really the main problem here. Bullying isn't limited to the US--it happens just as much in Japan, China, just about any other country. Why are non-American kids not blowing away their classmates? Hmm, maybe it has to do with the fact that guns are much more strictly controlled in other countries?
Not really so sure about this. I remember _last month_ when I was doing some research on Hamas, hamas.org redirected to a porn site. I think this might be a case of journalists not checking their facts.
Domain Name: HAMAS.ORG Registrar: BULKREGISTER.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.bulkregister.com Referral URL: www.bulkregister.com
Name Server: NS1.CONEPUPPY.COM Name Server: NS2.CONEPUPPY.COM
Updated Date: 20-nov-2000
Can't really tell who owns the damn thing... But you can't rule out that some schmuck registered it before Hamas did.
Basically your "general purpose personal computer", aka "home computer", is history. This should not surprise anyone since Microsoft has done everything in its power to convert the home computer into an Internet appliance.
While he make good points about home useage of computers, I think he overlooks the business PC market. Given on an average work day I run a word processor, spreadsheet, database, web-brower, e-mail, Adobe, etc., I think that the generic, multi-purpose PC is going to be an office fixture for awhile to come. Other than the PC, no one device (be it a PDA or whatever) has the versitility or power to handle all this.
I use O'Reilly's WebBoard software as part of my job in publications, and I must say that I hope that they do find another home for it. It is by far the best of its kind out there, though I suppose its rather limited market really cut down on their ability to move copies of it. Their decision not to release the Data Master addition is unfortunate, as I believe this would have added a large commercial market, given its ability to manage subscriptions and such.
I had been having some problems getting in touch with people in there software dept, but now I guess I know why.
Unfortunately, I do agree. I still haven't found anything to replace the time spent in the hot tub on LambdaMoo. I guess it goes back to the whole idea of community (whatever that means), but for a time places like LambdaMoo were what I came online for--an fascinating mixture of people there for the socializing and those there for the wonder of programming a Moo cigarette that actually worked, or characters you could change clothes on, or whatever. I think what's missing in alot of the Internet today is just the sheer wonder of being here at all...
Slashdot Mirror
You mean that in the "pre-digital era" people actually had to *GASP* read books, or even go to plays?! My god, I feel really sorry for those poor bored people that only had 2000+ years of civilization to prevent boredom. Thank you, television and the internet, from sparing us from this awful fate!
Exactly. I mean, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Something similar happened in China. Starbucks recently opened in the Forbidden City, to the protests of nationalistic Chinese. Interestingly, they weren't protesting the 'commercialization' of the Forbidden City--God knows its commercial enough. What they were upset about was the fact it was an AMERICAN coffee chain. So they made them take their sign down. Don't assume an anti-McDonald attack is anti-commercialism, when more likely it is anti-Americanism.
Two interesting articles to add to discussion. Is there a 'gun problem' in America? Firearm Injuries and Deaths Down Do Guns Save Lives?
Actually, most of the great Westerns were inspired/based on Japanese films--Mag. Seven from Seven Samurai and Fistful of Dollars from Yojimbo, to name a few. Then again, Kurosawa based some of his movies on English epics, such as King Lear. I think both the Westerns and the Japanese films are great examples of what can go right in cross-culture art!
Hell, lets do something about that great inhibitor of personal free and individual thinking--the wrist watch! Throw off your shackles, and refuse to be a slave to others notions of 'time'!
But as for gov't sponsored treatment of individuals, what do you call the 250+ years of slavery? That was supported for 250+ years by the American gov't (not just the South!) Remember, the Founding Fathers owned slaves... Anyway, this wasn't a good defense, not really any defense at all. It was more along the lines of "People in glass houses." Sorry!
I live in the real world. I'd love to have peace and democracy everywhere, especially in China, but there are serious historical, economical, and social problems that will prevent that. So, I'll settle for the best in a bad situation. As for campaigning for change, go read the news about the protests that have broken out in the Chinese countryside about taxes. No, the Chinese are not afraid of protesting--farmers, miners, laid off workers have been doing so for some time. Yes, what the Chinese gov't did at Tiananmen was brutal. I'm not debating that. Given the situation, given the loss of life that would have resulted from political chaos, I found it a nessesary evil. Life sucks. Not to divert the topic, but the Chinese gov't is hardly the only brutal gov't in existence. The democratic US has committed some pretty heinous atrocities in its time. No Gun Ri? My Lai? How about wiping out millions of American Indians? How about arming Iraq to fight Iran? Just being a democracy doesn't make one perfect. The 'democratic' Nationalists (aka the "Good Guys") were juist as brutal if not more so than the CCP. If China was a democracy today, I don't think it would act any differant than it does now.
Not sure I grasp your argument about the economy, but doesn't this assume that there is no growth in industry first? China has had 8% GDP growth annually for the past 15 years or so. If there is growing demand for labor, wages would remain constant as long as this demand is met. This isn't just the gov't shuffling stuff around, but a combination of internal and foreign investment. China is Communist in name only. Pro-market Facism would probably be a better label. I think China will remain dependant on exports for awhile, but look at Japan--they built a modern economy almost entirely focused on them. Similar to Japan after WWII, China is growing from a pretty low position, so 8% GDP growth into the forseeable future isn't impossible. I agree that the biggest threat to growth are the vestiges of Communism, in this case the old State Owned Enterprises. Fortunately, the gov't is slowly tearing the SOEs down.
Okay, read my post, and notice where I said that Mao is one of the people that fucked the country over. I'm not whitewashing what the Chinese DID, I'm saying what the Chinese are DOING. For the same reason, I think Tiananmen was an unfortunate neccessity. The biggest killer in Chinese history is instability. Mao brought instability in a big way, and millions died. The reason the Chinese still support the CCP is that for the last 20 years, they have brought real stability to China, improving the lives of 1.2 billion people. Go look at what those activists at Tiananmen were saying by the very end. They wanted to overthrow the gov't. Yeah, nice idea, but how many more millions would have died if they'd been successful. Read Li Guanyu (pinyin spelling. Former prime minister of Singapore) on this--he is a remarkable realistic and intelligent man. As for the Chinese not willing to critisize their gov't, go ride in a taxi--you'll hear more four-letter words about the gov't than you'd ever want to hear. They're not afraid to speak up against their gov't, but they honestly don't give a damn about human rights the way we westerners expect them to.
"As far as the average Chinese person's point of view, they'll believe whatever their goverment-owned press and their government-filtered Intranet (I don't even consider them to have Internet access) tells them to believe, and they'll lap it up." Wrong. Look at the explosion in the school several weeks ago. The gov't came out with some bullshit story about a lone madman, and because of the public outcry, the gov't had to change their stance. The Chinese aren't idiots, and they certainly don't believe everything their gov't tells them. As for access to information, Chinese nationals in the US have access to CNN, NYT, etc--but they still side with China on this one. One good point of Katz article was that nationality trumps free information.
To be perfectly honest, I welcome China, not because they're a perfect utopian society, but because I honestly think they're doing the best that they can do, given the destruction of their country by the Japanese, and later Mao. China is not Taiwan--its 1.2 billion people, 80% of whom are still farmers (compare 2% in developed countries.) Yes, human rights are a problem, but China is improving. I've lived in Beijing, and never heard one person complaining about human rights. They complain about corruption, wealth disparity, pollution, taxes, getting into a good school, stuff that people all over the world worry about. And most important, they think the Communist Party is doing a pretty good job, all things considered. Not perfect, but a good deal better than most.
Taiwan has historically been a part of China. It was taken from them first by the Japanese, then by the fleeing Nationalists (who to my knowledge have never formally renounced their intention to reconquer China.) Interestingly, Taiwanese maps show China as the Qing Dynasty borders(c. 1911)--which include Tibet and MONGOLIA. So its not just the PRC. China has a historical sphere of power, and Tibet falls within that. A more interesting scenario is what if at some time in the future, China pulls a Japan and sends troops to SE Asia to 'protect the Chinese minorities' in certain countries. Far fetch, but interesting to contemplate...
Not going to happen. The Chinese have nothing to lose from holding out for an apology. WTO? Olympics? Do those really matter when your population would lynch you for giving in to "American Imperialsim"? Look at it from the average Chinese person's point of view. On of your embassys gets bomb under dubius circumstances by a country that is supplying arms to what you consider a renegade province. Then, while spying on you, there is a collision. Wouldn't you be pissed to? The Chinese people think that their gov't caved in way to easily over the embassy bombing, so their going to take out their frustration by holding on for a real apology. I wouldn't expect either side to give in too soon.
I think this whole thing is a moot point. Do the Germans actually think keeping people from reading 'Mein Kampf' is going to stop them from being racist? People are going to believe what they want to believe, free information or not. Propaganda only works if people want to believe it. The Chinese gov't can't incite the public if they aren't alread deeply suspicious of the American gov't to begin with. Ditto with America--the whole anti-China lobby in the US draws upon barely disguised 'Yellow Peril' theats dating back to the 50's. They wouldn't work if a large section of Americans weren't already paranoid about China.
I agree with you 100%. I think the recent US-China incident reinforces this. Naturally, I expected the Chinese to be pro-China. However, given their access to CNN, NYT, etc here in the US, I expected Chinese nationals in the US to take a more balanced view. Boy, was I wrong. My girlfiend (herself a Chinese citizen)works for the US-China Business Council, so I can get both sides. Even with access to the opposing US view, it seems most Chinese nationals in the US buy what the Chinese gov't is saying 100%, just like the Americans in China and out are buying what the US media says. I think this kind of blows apart the argument that increased access to information will somehow cause everyone to agree. Both groups have access to both sides of the story. Sad, but I think national, religious, ethnic backgrounds will always weigh much more than free access to information.
You raise an interesting point. True, a huge number of people did die under Mao, mainly because of the stupid economic actions of the gov't. However, the Chinese gov't now, while still being the CCP, is totally different--after Mao, the people that took over were the very ones that Mao had purged out of power (Deng Xiaoping et al.)If we're digging up history, what about the actions the US gov't took in killing Native Americans, endorsing slavery, etc. Or, closer to our time, Vietnam? I'm not anti-US gov't, but I'm not anti-Chinese gov't either. Both are equally legitimate, and reflect the values/wishes of the citizens of their country. (Yes, the Chinese support their gov't, just as much as most Americans support theirs.) Sorry if I'm a bit jumpy on this point, because most Americans tend to assume that democracy is what the Chinese want deep down inside, if they could only throw off their "despotic" gov't. This isn't the case. Even the biggest critics of the CCP (Falun Gong and the like) are anything but pro-democracy.
"Authoritarian governments always have a low murder rate -- because they aren't counting the murders they commit." Hmm, don't you mean Texas? Seriously, if you've never been to China, please refrain from commenting until you actually know something about the situation. You might be right, but until you have some first-hand experience I really do suggest you visit. Try living in a country before you criticize it. People tend to resepct informed opinions more. And yes, I do have first hand experience. And no, no one got shot. Sorry for the off-topic rant, but must American know shit about the cultures they always jump to criticize.
While I agree that an authoritarian measure isn't always the best solution, I'm not sure bully is really the main problem here. Bullying isn't limited to the US--it happens just as much in Japan, China, just about any other country. Why are non-American kids not blowing away their classmates? Hmm, maybe it has to do with the fact that guns are much more strictly controlled in other countries?
Damn html tags. The article is here-- Link
Leaving the Fold
One of the interesting parts is the requirement to sign a 'non-disclosure' statement when leaving Sea Org.I use O'Reilly's WebBoard software as part of my job in publications, and I must say that I hope that they do find another home for it. It is by far the best of its kind out there, though I suppose its rather limited market really cut down on their ability to move copies of it. Their decision not to release the Data Master addition is unfortunate, as I believe this would have added a large commercial market, given its ability to manage subscriptions and such. I had been having some problems getting in touch with people in there software dept, but now I guess I know why.
Unfortunately, I do agree. I still haven't found anything to replace the time spent in the hot tub on LambdaMoo. I guess it goes back to the whole idea of community (whatever that means), but for a time places like LambdaMoo were what I came online for--an fascinating mixture of people there for the socializing and those there for the wonder of programming a Moo cigarette that actually worked, or characters you could change clothes on, or whatever. I think what's missing in alot of the Internet today is just the sheer wonder of being here at all...