Slashdot Mirror
Sean In The Middle
Last week, Sean Sheeley -- computer geek, gamer, and high-school junior in the McKinney Independent School District north of Dallas -- was confronted by a group of students in one of his classes. They'd been tormenting Sheeley for much of the school year, he says. He'd been jabbed, ridiculed, baited, had disks stoken from his computer.
Sheely's father Patrick, a graphic designer, says the incident unfolded this way: one of the kids in his class came up to Sean while others were taunting him and said aloud with others present, "One of these days, he's going to bring a gun to school and shoot us."
Patrick Sheeley, a Slashdot regular, says that "my son, being a little sarcastic, took out a small case that he carries his keys in and pretended to be loading a gun. The same student then said, 'Look, he's loading his gun.'
At some point, says Patrick, one of the other students joined in with some additional comments, further upsetting Sean, who then responded:
"If this had been a real gun,you'd be dead now." One of the kids turned him in.
Sean was called into the principal's office where he got suspended for three days and sent home. School officials then notified his parents that Sean was being removed from the high school and sent to an alternative school for kids with learning and other problems. He was no longer fit for mainstream education, the school had decided.
The decision was "unappealable" to school administrators, Patrick was told. He could appeal to the school district, but not until May, when the school year was virtually over. None of the other students involved have been disciplined, nor, to the Sheeleys' knowledge, even questioned. Patrick says officials told him that the school has a statement from a single student who overheard the remark and reported it.
Sean says that he'd like to forget the whole day, but here's what he remembers:
"There was much of the usual taunting, mocking my intelligence, mocking things I hold interest in, etc. Then one of them said, 'You know, one of these days he's going to bring a gun to school and kill us all.' And that is, so to speak, what knocked over the first domino. I also remember one of them trying to take the computer disks out of my backpack... the same person who went through my backpack accused me of being gay."
Sean said he'd prefer the high school to an alternative school. Othwerwise, he says, "why would I want to go back to a school that lies, breaks state laws, and gets rid of bright students who finally snap, merely to 'make the school feel safer?' All the school is doing is satisfying a few parents' false sense of insecurity, brought on by the intense media attention to the recent school shootings, by giving them a false sense of security, at the expense of students like myself. The ONLY reason I'd want to go back is to see my few friends again, and I can keep in contact with them without going to school."
Sean's comment was foolish, his father says, especially in the post-Columbine environment where candid speech about schools is dangerous. And he isn't averse to some milder form of punishment.
I wonder if Sean deserves anything more than a useful speech on sensible responses to morons. Perhaps he should be called into an office and told that one of an individual's noblest callings is to make fools reveal themselves. There appear to be mitigating circumstances, to say the least, and Sean was defending himself, reflexively and verbally, if not wisely. Patrick is surprised by the profoundly anti-democratic, Banana Republic policies that govern public schools in America, where there is no Constitution, protected speech, or due process for citizens under 18. Thousands of kids like Sean won't be the least bit surprised.
In fact, school officials across the country may be chasing the wrong kids out of school. The U.S. Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports that more than 2,000 school age children 19 or younger take their lives each year in the United States, many citing depression, social cruelty and bullying and other forms of harassment. That means that many more kids harm themselves as the result of social cruelty than harm other kids.
"I just don't know what to do," says Patrick, who can't afford a lawyer, and who wants to protect his kid. Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could have implications for Sean down the line. "...I would appreciate any suggestions as to what recourse we may have, or where we might find some help."
In the meantime, he and his wife have pulled Sean out of the district rather than submit to his being shunted to an altenative school. The Sheeleys are home-schooling him, an increasingly popular alternative for individualistic kids facing creative suffociation or social isolation and persecution in larger schools. "What's the lesson for him?" his father asks. "This wasn't a fair process. The kids who provoked him were not disciplined equally, or at all. It could have been me," Patrick says, of the incident. "I felt the same way when I was in school. I probably even said the same thing." It could have been lot of people.
Even though administrators have deemed Sean too dangerous to stay in high school -- perhaps he triggered one of their dangerous-kid-profiles -- the junior has never been in trouble of any sort, his father says, inside or out of school: never been arrested, disciplined, suspended, or even involved in a fight.
I called the school district to ask if there was any comment. A secretary in the administrators' office asked me if I was kidding. "No," she said. We don't have any. And what is a Slashdot?"
Sean provides a nearly classic example of kids in the middle of an increasingly insane social situation. We know this story. Sean and his father are both self-professed computer geeks. Sean has a few friends who are into computers and gaming, and who generally feel isolated and excluded at school. Sean finds many of his classes boring, although he has met academic requirements, and spends most of his time in his creative other life, building computers, programming, networking, writing games, especially RPG's.
His experience shows that a culture of harassment remains tolerated in many educational institutions; where kids can be taunted and bullied at will, sometimes into retaliatory statements or actions.
Patrick Sheeley has some decisions to make and could use some help. Should he try to get Sean back into school or walk away? Should he take legal action to force due process? (Many Slashdot community members are familiar with home schooling, judging from my e-mail). He would appreciate hearing from lawyers with expertise in cases like this. He's contacted the ACLU, but isn't sure whether it can or will represent Sean. He knows that irrational policies and the post-Columbine hysteria are all closing in on his kid, and he wants to do something about it.
...That they can punish you for something that you could potentially but not likely do. Yet, actual harrasment is tolerated. I was kicked out of Computer Science for what i knew, they said i had the potential to hack and therefore a threat...
Yeah, the school over-reacted. But still... it's really stupid to even joke about killing somebody in public school. You've got to be pretty naive to think that the school isn't going to come down on you in these post-Columbine days. And even if the guy was tormented, what good does mock-threatening someone's life do?
Notice one of their schools is named "Slaughter". That would make for amusing headlines.
I am so tired of hearing all of this whiney prattle. Lets diverge off the typical
"i am always picked on at school and bullied *whine whine whine*"
Call this trolling or flaming or whatever.
I think that a lot of the attention "geeks" and "computer nerds" get in school negative/positive is just something that is a part of life. Humans in general are not the nicest in the world. We tend to spot weaknesses in others quickly and exploit that for personal gain, albeit ego etc. etc.
I know a lot of people here fit the profile of, "I was picked on severely in school no one really liked me, fuck all the idiot jocks I make 10x more than they ever will with my job"
I wasn't exactly popular in school. I got picked on. I didnt run whining to the school or fantasize about exploding my classmates or chopping them up or shooting them. I confronted them called them names back and fought them whenever that is all I could do. You can gimme all the sad stories in the world but unless you truly stand up for yourself and show that you are not going to be picked on, NO this does not mean killing anyone, people are going to continue to abuse you. That is life.
I took a lot of self defense classes and didnt get taken advantage of much after I actually fought back, verbally and or phsyically. its been a part of our nature since we were cavemen with clubs.
I suppose by now you think I am totally off base and that im a nut job for posting here since you shouldnt ever get picked on.
But you know.. enough is enough you have to be able to deal with life in all of its forms. Chances are you have to go to public school. So why is it that most geeks cant seem to fit in? What is so hard about being different AND standing up for yourself. I know violence is not a solution to every problem but if you stand up for yourself against the "jocks" and people who would pick on you it will come to that. I know. So you can say whatever you want about all of my opinons but if you can't stand up for yourself now your just gonna get walked on again and again.
As my dad always said. If you get in a fight and lose dont come home crying to me.
Blah
They blocked slashdot! They turn a deaf ear to things they don't want to hear. How typical. You can still get there by using OPEN LINK IN NEW WINDOW.
That mean RIGHT-click this guy here: http://www.mckinneyisd.net/cgi-bin/contactus.plx
Below is the message I sent to MISD through their website's comment form. (Note: though posting here anonymously, I included my name and email address when send the message to MISD.)
I thought that kicking students out for stuff like this was going overboard. I had a student that "joked around" about bringing a weapon to skill, hurting others, etc. Eventually he made good on his "jokes" by bringing a large knife to school and threatening me with it.
My point is that schools are supposed to be a "safe place" for parents to leave their kids. Is the school really overreacting here, or just looking out for the safety of the other children in the school?
As long as schools are a place of minimal laws, (i.e. if you assault someone and it isn't bad enough to put them in the hospital), there isn't any point in sending kids there. You are teaching your kids to believe in the law of the jungle, which is frankly going to be very bad once they get out into the real world. The solution is to handle kids who are guilty of assault within the school walls the same way as you would outside the school walls.
http://mckinneyhighschool.virtualave.net/ Chat with the students...
Here's the Superintendant's (Dr. David Anthony) response to my email to him. He's a bit of a weasel (no details, really), but it shows there may be another side to the story:
Due to FERPA regulations, I am prohibited form releasing information regarding the disciplinary actions taken against students, even though punishment was assessed. The parents are not prohibited from saying whatever they want. I face the same situation with employees, so we are always at the mercy of those who would distort the truth.
Does anyone out there really believe that we would take an action such as this without conferring with attorneys or that we really indulge in violations of due process by acting arbitrarily and capriciously. I have been called many profane and vulgar things today, as well as a barbarian. However, all public educators are not ignorant of the law, nor of appropriate investigative processes.
I noted that the parents did not indicate that they were given information regarding the next level to express their concerns, nor have they called back to discuss the results of my second inquiry into the matter.
There is a difference between the parents not being heard and not hearing what they wanted to hear.
Stop it, just stop going over how to screw over the school district, how to get the justice you all wish you had when you were in high-school. Stop and think about what Sean has to do! Fucking insensitive bastards, Sean is gonna be mocked the hell out of and probably harrassed on the streets if this goes big. You aren't there to protect him in person, so stop babbling about how the school system is screwing him over and mailbombing them. If you guys are gonna make this a big deal, carry it all the fucking way through. If you want to be able to say "He should sue them" then you get your ass over to McKinney Texas and fucking hire an attorney for him. Otherwise, stop posting on this god damn forum. I'm so sick and tired of "seeing" how bad everyone feels for victims and "seeing" how little is really actually done to help. Its popular these days to show your pity publicly... when if you were seriously sorry about this, you would be taking action. Me, Im not gonna do a god damn thing. Thats right, Im so fucking insensitive right? Well if thats true, every person here that is too busy with their own life is going to hell with me. Pull your heads out of your asses and take action... talking won't get you anywhere. --Larry Holl
People say that students today aren't inspired. People say that students have no positive role models they can reasonably aspire to grow up into. People say that students are apathetic because of drugs, or video games, or comic books. What it really boils down to is students are bored because life in the US really isn't realistically very challenging anymore, unless you personally force it to be.
Think about it. You can coast thru life with no problem. Land a series of low paying jobs, live somewhere like Nebraska or Iowa or Detroit (or Palmdale) where rents are low, there's McDonalds on every block, and a Wal-Mart in every mall. You can save up enough to buy a car, or at least lease one and chain yourself to 3 years of debt. You can have kids in or out of wedlock, get a dog and a cat, ride a harley. You can shop at the Gap or Banana republic and you can wear Oakley sunglasses and Nike shoes and Calvin Klein underoos and you can look and act and think and be just like everyone else. But you still won't be satisfied. Because you will be exposed to the Oscars every year. See women wearing $10,000 gowns. See men wearing shoes made by a one-handed Australian aboriginees out of ostrich-leg leather, shoes that cost more than your car is worth. See more limousines in 45 minutes on one stretch of street in LA than there are in all of China. In a society like ours, where success is measured entirely by wealth or accumulation of material posession, 99.999% of students in high school must feel like they are by virtue of their birth condemned to a life of mediocrity. If you feel average, and everyone tells you you're average, why rock the boat? By the time kids are in 10th grade, they are resigned to the fact that they'll never be satisfied because there's always something new to buy that they don't have yet, and radio and TV and those pop-up ads on the web are making sure they know all about it.
So people should realize that things aren't important. They should be satisfied by just being who they are, right?
Right. But you can't be Michael Jordan. You can't even be Tiger Woods, because your dad didn't start you playing golf before you knew how to wipe yourself. You can't be Jeter or Gretzky or Ali or Kasparov or even Mary Lou Retton. If you have any hope of being a serious professional athlete, odds are you already spend a lot more time doing that sport than you spend in high school.
So forget sports- let's try firsts. You can't be the first man to fly faster than sound- that was Chuck, right? you can't be the first man in space. Or the first on the moon- Armstrong's got that one sewn up. You can't be Magellan. You can't be Lindberg, or one of the Wright Brothers. You can't be the first guy to swim across the English Channel, although I think the Pacific is still up for grabs. Maybe you can be the first to talk to the aliens, but no one will believe you either. While we're at it, you can't be Mao. You can't be any of the Kennedys. You can't be Castro either, or Deng Xiopeng, or Joe Stalin. Maybe you can be Britney, but you don't want to unless you've already sold your soul in exchange for the McExistance that you're destined to suffer through for the next 50 years. You can't even be dotComGuy, because he did it first. You obviously can't be President of the US, because your Dad never was either, and your brother isn't governor of a key swing state. Maybe you could be Dan Rather, or Tom Brokaw, or (dare I to dream) Andy Rooney. But there really aren't a whole lot of firsts out there for you to claim anymore.
The world is already full of people, famous for various reasons. So how can you prove to yourself and the rest of the world that you are good enough to be satisfied with yourself?
People go to increasingly silly and narcissistic lengths for personal recognition, like bungee jumping from a hot air baloon, or standing for 3 days between two giant blocks of ice. Why? Because we all have a deep seated need for society to recognize and acknowledge our value as a person. But public school teachers are paid less than garbage collectors. Less than plumbers. Less than corrections officers. Some kids aren't stupid- what message does it send to the ones who bother to think, when the society they live in pays the people charged with teaching them about life and how to contribute to that society less than it pays the people who haul away its garbage?
That humans value neatness above their offspring?
Our public educational system sends a consistent message to its consumers, our children and adolescents. That message is "Society thinks you are worthless, and powerless to boot." It doesn't take much thought to add the implied challenge: "Prove us wrong." This implied challenge, endemic to the way we value education, is what inspires people like Dylan Klebold to act out in violence. This implied challenge is likewise what inspires bullying among students- I'm doing my best to blend in with the crowd, to show the world that I can keep up with what Tyra Banks says I should be wearing and Kobe says I should be eating and listening to the coolest music, approved by Kurt Loder. How dare you dress/walk/act/think differently? Do you think you're better than me? I'd better beat that idea right out of your head, 'cause what if you're right and I'm wrong?.
Obviously this is a problem. So what would a responsible society do about it? Well, let's look at what ours has done as it has become clear that there are problems with convincing our children that it is worth their time to learn. We have dumbed down standards, so that what used to be failing now is average. We have allowed the use of tools, such as calculators on the SAT Math exam, so that people who can't think clearly can at least have a machine help them. We have established a systemic precedent for rewarding failure as well as success, so that people who fail don't "feel bad" about their ineffectiveness. As a result, there are no expressed consequences for those students who accept the implied judgement of their elders and emerge from 12th grade with no skills and no ambition to gain any, ready to be a mediocre nobody for the rest of their lives. Remember, if you don't expect much of yourself, nobody else will either. The corollary of that little theorem is, if nobody expects anything of you, it's pretty easy to go through life giving them what they want.
There are plenty of incentives for good performance, and I think that the validation that comes with excellence is apparent to most of us. I think the problem is that there isn't enough of a disincentive for poor performance in America anymore. Not only aren't people not inspired to be the best person that they can be, they're not afraid of being a half-assed screwup. You know that you can get by, even if you're a total failure. Why study math or computer science? It's much easier to take that job in sales at HomeDepot or that night manager job at Best Western, and stay there for 35 years until they give you a lucite desk calendar and kick you out on your keister.
Think kids are afraid when someone shoots up their school? I bet they would be PETRIFIED if they knew they were next, unless they got better than a B- on that next exam. And I bet they would study for it, too.
People should be PUNISHED for failure- not coddled. There aren't ENOUGH guns in school. This would be a better world if the penalty for impoliteness or stupidity was death. Student is disrespectful in class? Kill `em. Student caught selling drugs in the hallway? Kill `em. Student just can't quite get the hang of algebra? Then how the hell can the rest of us, in good conscience, let him or her survive long enough to breed? Want due process? I'll give due process to your head, right out the end of my Glock.
When I'm in charge, things are going to change around here. For some of you, it will be painful, but trust me, it's for the best.
And the stupid/impolite people- you and I won't miss them at all.
NEW Numbers: Superintendants office: 469-742-4070 Safety Director: 469-742-4096 Special Populations(Ed):469-742-4081 Old Numbers (Slashdotted?) McKinney I.S.D. 1 Duvall St McKinney, TX 75069 Phone: 972-569-6400 Fax: 972-562-8751 P.S. They blocked slashdot as a referral link. Use Open in new window to get there: (right click)
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/
I currently am employed by an elementary school (happens to be my alma mater) and witness first hand the cruelty that young people can express towards those who are "different". When I was in high school (5+ years ago, eg. Pre-Columbine), I came close to snapping myself many times, getting into a (very minor) skirmish or two, even. I didn't make things easy on myself, either. I would often put down "less intelligent" students answers and would (unintentionally) egg them on by giving them the reactions they wanted to get out of me. I did have friends, and I never felt that the "whole" school was out to get me, but I consider myself lucky for that. A former student of my high school, a few years younger than me, recently killed himself because of the torture he had undergone in high school. He never managed to recover.
It is time to educate the educators. School officials and teachers need to learn to recognize the signs of bullying and "torture", and to pro-actively prevent it. Starting at the Kindergarten levels, students need not only to be encouraged to be respectful of diversity, but to appreciate it as well. If (for example) schools can pass on to students that a geek and a jock working together could accomplish much more than either could alone, then perhaps the boiling-point temperature that we've recently hit in America's schools could be cooled somewhat.
The District's webpage: http://www.mckinneyisd.net/ Dr.David Anthony danthony@mckinneyisd.net Superintendent 469-742-4070 Ted Moore tlmoore@mckinneyisd.net Assistant Superintendent Campus Services 469-742-4041 Dennis Muizers dmuizers@mckinneyisd.net Director of Secondary Education 469-742-4093
GenX, or the "13th generation" as the authors put it, are underprotected and undervalued as children, grow up as a nomad generation. They start as free agents, are pragmatic and independent, and must be increasingly tough and resolute as they age in a time of crisis.
"Millenials", of which Sean is one of the first examples, are increasingly protected as children. They come into young adulthood and drive the society into crisis by challenging the crusades of their elders.
(The authors believe that this changing of generations and generational attitudes leads to an inevitable crisis cycle. Past crises in US society have included the revolution, the civil war, and the depression/WW2.) Each turning of the generations leads to predictable approaches, and the fourth turning is the crisis cycle. It begins in 2005. Be prepared.)
Sean's ouster, then, is a predictable overreaction from baby boomers during a period when individualism is stregthened and institutions are increasingly weakened.
Anyway, can't recommend the book more highly.
Let's see now, is the victim responsible if s/he is physically abused, not just mentally abused? I just want to make sure I get your approach right.
In fact, shouldn't we honor the tormentors for giving the abused a chance to succeed? I mean, if it worked for you, obviously it'll work for everyone, right? (I know those fourth graders can be merciless, I don't know how you survived.)
And the damned uncaring father, co-dependently giving the son an opportunity to fail by retracting him from the environment where he would be the most challenged. What kind of father is that? He should have just told the kid to buck up and stop whining. Nobody likes those whiners! Why, they're some of the least popular people in school.
And that's important, because one measure of success is how popular you are in high school.
I could go on, but that would put me in line for being moderated down as flamebait. But wait, if that happens, it'll be my fault, and the resulting lesson will make me a better person. OK, moderators, do your worst! I refuse to accept your negative opinion of my message!
I see, aggressive stereotyping and stigmatizing other children is expected and is entirely the fault of the victim.
You can not punish someone for not liking someone else.
I see, brutally tormenting people you don't like is expected and acceptable.
The fact remains that this innocent child threatened the lives of others.
Bullshit, he threatened no-one. Compared to the actions of his tormentors, his action was probably the least threatening.
His biggest fault was taking his oppressor's stereotyping and using it against them. He wasn't violent, nor did he use violence. He used suggestion and a simple statement.
Your hypocrisy, sir, is utter. Months and months of physical and verbal abuse by tormentors is supposed to be a learning experience. One single statement in reaction, and you call it threatening and unjustified. If the tormentors were to take your advice, they would not go snivelling off, reporting it to authorities. Liking D&D expected to result in abuse? How about after months and months of abuse you might expect a little threatening aside! You should be telling your fuckup Texan teen circle-jerk buddies that if they can dish it out, they had better fuckin' take it like men, no whining to the principal. Hey, it's just commen sense, right?
If the kid is so "smart," then he probably knew that making gun comments was wrong. By making it, he was doing something against school rules. Just because he was harrassed by other kids does NOT give him that right. How many times did he report these harrasing attempts at him. I know what it's like to be harrassed as much as the next guy, but you deal with it. If you can't then you report it, you don't do something you know will get you in trouble. The school did the right thing.
---
Come on. I doubt a typical day went like:
Dad: So Sean, how was your day at school?
Sean: Well, I got bullied and it was really humiliating. I'm thinking about threatening violence tomorrow.
Dad: That's nice. Now go back upstairs and play everquest!
Something tells me the dad had a rude awakening that life wasn't jim-dandy for his son when all of this happened. Kids stick to vague comments like 'school sucked today' and 'just some guys at school being annoying' or something. Any parent who isn't looking won't see that his son is getting shit on with impunity.
As always, if you need to waste your time, I suggest http://news.getschooled.com/.
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
Exactly. And that's the problem. If you live in your own little fantasy world until you're 18, how do you expect to know how to deal with bosses, coworkers, etc. who may be jerks, idiots, or egomanaics?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
School authorities lie on this sort of thing all the time. I know it happened on countless occaisions where *I* was the one in Sean's shoes. I never made any remarks about killing anyone, but I still ended up with the harshest punishments (assuming the instigators were ever punished--usually they were the "witnesses" and I had to "make up" with them). When my Dad would come to my defense, our assistant principal would lie or hide things. On one occaision, Dad appealed to the school board, and the assistant principal even lied to them. Of course, given the cronyism involved, they sided with him, and we were outta luck. Nothing like "innocent until proven guilty" and "right to a fair trial" (it sure was speedy, but only when I was being accused).
:)\n"
I take my hat off to you, Mr. D_____. You proved just how low, dishonest, despicable, and disreputable school administrators can be. (And no, that's NOT slander...every word is true).
if ($user =~ m/shaldannon/i) {
print "\n-- $user
}
What is your Slash Rating?
It's been what, a few years since Columbine, and nobody, not the schools, not the directors, not the teachers, not the students, not the parents, have learned anything.
Parents need to step off their "but my son/daughter would _never_ do that" horse. Teachers need to step off their "I'm just here to teach, not to protect my students wellbeing" horse. School boards and directors need to step off their "Look at us, we've got preventive measures in place!" horse.
And society in general needs to learn - then again, all the above would pretty much constitute a miracle, and they don't happen.
So I guess we're all fucked after all.
Thankfully I dropped out of the whole education loop when I was 18, and started educating myself. At 23, I can only say that for me, it was the right thing to do - I've got a great (geek) job, I make good money, and I have the freedom to do what I want, when I want to do it.
Perhaps more people should try this.
There is no sig...
I wish I'd gotten in on this topic sooner but it's been a wild day.
Kids will be kids. There will be picking. There will be discipline problems. In the past, discipline was meaded out with a paddle. I strongly favor a return to corporal punishment. It works better for most miscreants than anything else. Throwing kids out of school or charging them with felonies is counterproductive.
As for the picking, if a kid is getting picked on he needs to be trained how to fight effectively. He must be able to handle bullies. Any kids identified as being picked on should be given training in boxing, wrestling, karate, jujitsu, judo or other martial arts. Strength training is also likely to be of benefit. This will empower the one being picked on to defend themselves. Bullies will find an easier mark. The school system should provide such kids with stipends.
Do I have a vested interest in this? You bet. I teach kids like this all the time.
Will training kids in self defense and returning to corporal punishment prevent Columbines from happening? Probably. Growing up today ain't no easier or harder than it was then. Kids probably had better access to guns 30 years ago. Heck, I had 2 rifles, shotgun and a pistol when I was 13. There's no way I'd have taken them to school. The threshold for a butt whuppin' was real low. Nobody shot up schools then. I carried a pocket knife then. Still do. But any kid with one today gets arrested. If anyone had cut someone else with their pocket knife, they would have gotten 2 whuppins. One right then and there and another at home.
It's like the little old lady with the shopping cart who wheels grocery sacks full of money through the ghetto. Nobody knocks her over because they know retribution will be sure, severe and swift.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Well, when my mom was in school they got 3 bomb threats in a month. Each was taken seriously, but for the last one they just made all the students stay in the parking lot, and held class (such as they could) outside. they never got anouther bomb threat because it was no longer a way to go home early.
There's also the generic idea that kids have to surmount social pressures. Kids have to grow some thick skin if they want to survive in the real world.
Not much chance to learn when you get kicked out of school as soon as you make a mistake.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Exactly. I tried making this point last time we had a story like this. It's always your word against at least 3 other people it seems. Guess who ends up winning?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
He calls the freaking secretary, who *CAN'T* say anything to the media because that'd cost her her job
Why doesn't the secretary refer him to someone who CAN say something?
Bullying has been a part of schooling since schools were invented. Hell, read the "Almanzo" book from Little House on the Prairie.
The problem is that kids didn't used to get kicked out of school for responding to bullies. THAT is the issue here.
That's right: claim that he's a gun freak who's gonna kill everyone.
And why the hell should they be allowed to do this kind of crap? They can claim he's a killer, but he can't play along with it?
I'm not trying to excuse the bullies, but want to point out that there are two sides to the story, point out that Sean is not completely free of blame
Like hell you aren't. Kids are in school to learn and shouldn't have to put up with this kind of bullshit from assholes that don't have anything better to do than harrass people who are weaker and/or less popular than themselves. They should expell the little dipshits that like to make life hell for others instead of the kids that have to put up with it because the administrators don't give a flying fuck about it! Yes, Sean is partly to blame, even his father said that, but look at what happened! He gets kicked out of school and the bullies get nothing! If the bullies were being as "clever" as you think and trying to get him kicked out of school, then they should be the ones being kicked out.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
why it is that when anything goes wrong in society its the fault of Christians.
Easy. "Christians" are the largest, powerful group, and the most bulling one. Sadly, they not behave like true christians, nor care about the 10 commandments. If they did, we could have more tolerant society, after all, there's no commandment about everybody thinking equally.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
I wish everybody at the gun range knew basic gun-safety rules. Because that is definately not the case. When I've gone shooting, I get guns pointed at me, waved past me, all the time, loaded, unloaded, whatever.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
last month, there was an interesting article in Scientific American, about agression. The author states that the current widely held belief that agression is caused by low self esteem is flawed.
He cites his studies that state that agression is more likely caused by people that have too-high self esteem. Baseless self-love, and when that self-love is threatened, they lash out. When applied to the model of the "geek" who's being teased, it makes a lot of sense. There certainly is a rationalization of superiority. These kids, we geeks, believe that we are superior to others, because we are smarter. And when it is proven to us that just being smarter isn't enough, you also have to be stronger, faster, better looking, and more socially adept, (and probably richer), that superiority complex is threatened.
Of course, that goes for the bullies too. When they feel threatened by someone smarter than them, they lash out similarly, to demonstrate that their attributes are superior.
If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.
The author of this article faults the current system, the way we raise our kids, afraid to criticize or judge too harshly, lest we crush their frail egos and turn them into homocidal maniacs. When in fact, we are building up their egos too much, to the point where they get this 'tude, and then, they are basically ticking time bombs, waiting for a threat to their egos.
Makes ya think.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Nice catch! (E.H. Slaughter Elementary)
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/slaughter/
Maybe someone should change that name, before it starts putting ideas into the little kiddies minds.
-Derek
Capitalism demands focus on the individual ("how do I become wealthy/better/more successful than my peers?"). In the case above, that would mean having more power (i.e., be in the tougher gang) and to oppress weaker individuals.
Role-playing (as a group in pen and paper format) is probably one of the best examples of an activity which is "unamerican" (WRT capitalism) because the need for cooperation to better the group, not to mention the need for thinking outside the box, imagination, and creativity. These last are also being forced out of US society (take a look at the emphasis on the current standardized testing debate!)
Links:
Can You Suggest Any Non-Zero Sum Games?
The real silver bullet to good programs is caffeine; lots and lots of caffeine! *twitch, twitch*
Is in college admissions offices. If I were an admissions officer (or, for that matter, a potential employer), I would look quite unfavorably on a degree from such a high school. In fact, I would probably consider Sean's educational history better than that of his classmates, and I would consider him a more suitable person to have around, even from the school administrators' account of the incident.
There are, in fact, significant checks on what a high school can do to its students, provided the information actually gets out, because the high school's reputation does matter.
Can high schools do this sort of thing? Sure, but if it's reported with actual names and dates and so forth, and mentioned to colleges, it could quickly lead to "You're from that school in Texas, right? So, are you an abusive jerk, full of repressed anger, or just too boring to be noticed?" If the school's reputation starts hurting students' chances, I bet parents will be pressuring administrators to shape up pretty quickly.
Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people. Funny, I've had the opposite experience. When I worked at a science museum a few years ago, I supervised a number of volunteer docents. Two of the three best I had were homeschooled kids who had their afternoons free, so they were there when the "normal" schoolkids started to trickle in. Not only could they deal with younger kids, they could also handle the parents. I had zero problem with those kids - I wish I could have said the same thing for the adult volunteers. les
You seem to be making the erroneous assumption that school authorities will actually do something about the harrassment.
I was picked on at school - once, during singing practice, the bully behind me continuously flicked the back of my ears. In full view of the teacher in charge and anyone close enough to see what was happening, I turned around, punched the kid in the mouth as hard as I could, and then sat back down again in my seat with my back turned to him and my glowing red ears exposed.
Nothing happened - the punch in the back didn't come, the teacher didn't interfere, and the kid didn't flick me anymore. The shock of the retaliation was enough of a deterant to keep him quiet in his seat with a busted lip.
...to the district superintendent:
Er, I didn't ask you to discuss the facts regarding any issue. Please be assured that your response will be duly noted in any lawsuits brought as a result of any violence which results from your deliberate decision to ignore my concerns.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
No. You've pretty much nailed it on the head.
You did leave out an important translation of the following part:
Which should be translated as: "I will lie at will about the parents who revealed my actions even though those I am lying to have read the article in which the parents did, in fact, indicate they were given information regarding the next level to express their concerns."
One could also add something about the legal liability this guy will be facing if he does end up with a Columbine-like situtation when it is discovered that he ignored warnings that he was recreating a situation very much like the one at Columbine which helped to produce the killings. When one adds this to his slanderous sniping from behind FERPA ("privacy concerns prevent me from telling you why I think this parent is dirty-bad-nasty"), I would not like to be holding his libel-slander-gross-negligence insurance.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
I was bullied through much of K-7. I was a regular churchgoer and, following the teaching of "Love the enemy" I used to invite the bullies to my birthday parties. I still remember getting my head split open on concrete at one of my parties along with getting "typewritered" by two of the others. It wasn't until I sent my primary tormenter flying across the hallway with a left hook, and then kicking him in the head the next year with my football boots, punching him in the head in another fight that the bullying stopped and we became reasonable acquaintances. I last saw him when he played for the same football club (Aussie Rules) after we left High School. School was hell for a lot of that time until I stood up to him.
Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
Government schools routinely allow abuses of students along the lines of assult, battery, sexual harrassment, sexual assault, and slander. I must say that I was surprised when I got out of high school and found out that a person cannot legally beat up another person because of the suspicion of homosexuality. I am gay, and even though I was not out in high school, high school was still sheer hell for me.
So instead of punishing perpetrators for committing crimes of assult, battery, sexual harrassment, sexual assault, and slander, government school officials punish the victim for merely suggesting that he might fly off the deep end. Honestly, what are we supposed to expect the victim to do? When government school officials don't do anything about bullying (those five illegal acts that I mentioned), then they are *endorsing* said acts! I can tell you, there was more than one time that I thought about mowing down some of my tormentors with a weapon, and I know I'm not the only one here who has felt that way.
(And I don't mean to single myself out becuase I'm gay; lots of people suffer from bullying in high school. And I hate using the term "bullying" because it trivializes the illegal behavior of violent predators in schools.)
School shootings are not the problem, they are the symptom. If assult, battery, sexual harrassment, sexual assault, and slander are allowed to continue in schools, then, rest assured, more school shootings will occur.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I dropped out anyhow, but because of their lies, I waited before getting my GED. I should have taken it immediately. In fact, in hindsight it is clear that I should have done it when I was in junior high!
It sounds to me like Sean should have absolutely NO trouble passing a GED (they're very easy). I'd advise taking that and the SAT or ACT, and applying to colleges and universities. That way he can actually get an education, instead of simply "doing time" in the public school system.
Some people have told me that a GED doesn't look good on one's record. My experience is that if you have good SAT scores, no one cares.
Eric
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" -- Mark Twain
The more we make the schools like prisons, the more we'll make the students like prisoners. Are you sure you WANT the schools to turn out people with a prisoner mindset?
What students really need are hidden cameras in the schools. If parents of bullies would actually see their little darlings tormenting and harassing they way they do, I can guarantee that some (not all) of the bullies would get a serious butt whipping and would *quickly* change their ways. Parents are so oblivious most of the time to what their kids do in school. The schools themselves are far too impotent to actually be able to do something about, and, when they do act, they act improperly and contrary to what logic would tell any educated person.
Is it an invasion of privacy? Yes, but so are metal detectors, drug tests and searching lockers. Why not have video cameras?
Oh, now I remember, because no one really wants to see how bad some of the TEACHERS in public education are. Of course, I have no way to back this up in fact other than my experiences when I was in junior high and high school.
In lieu of cameras everywhere in schools, intelligent and bright young students who are being bullied should resort to the skills they have... geeky nerd hacker skills... and should go about tape recording and video taping their ordeals with hidden cameras with the bullies. Videotaping has worked wonders for police departments (both to catch crooked cops and to prove that there really are a lot of assholes on the road.)
Something to ponder, at least.
No, I think your question is really good and should be addressed. Without knowing the father, I can only speak speculatively and will make broad generalizations and assumptions that will render my point moot, but I might as well make it anyway...
For anyone that's ever been bullied in school, what do your parents usually say when you report it, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
However, what parents fail to realize is that for some reason, kids today are more agressive in class then they ever have been before. While in the past a spat between two classmates might result in a quick and akward fisfight behind the gymnasium, nowadays with a lack of school administration caring, fights are taking place everywhere, with more deadly weapons and voracity.
If you ponder the idealized schools that parents attended "back in the day", behavior problems wre easier to deal with because there was always a group of troublemakers and bullies that could be singled out for punishment. Of course, the victim would still get the, "Just try to ignore them" explanation that parents still give today. However, nowadays I strongly believe that anyone can be a bully. It is almost like a hierachy of abuse exists. The darwinism of it all is really astounding once you realize it, especially if you're living through it. The kids in these Slashdot articles, while certainly at the "top" of the hierachy in terms of grades, intelligence, skills or creativity, are often cast down to the lowest levels of the food chain when it comes to social respect and decency. The point I'm trying to make is that the bullies at the top tend to make their victims bullies themselves until you reach the bottom where those individuals would love to bully everyone above them for lack of having anyone lower to bully themselves.
Is it a brash overgeneralization? Yes.
Is this post a long winded rant? Yes.
Do I think I have a valid point in here someplace? Yes.
This is a weighty issue that is becoming worse and worse. The difficult part about this discussion is that there really is no "right" and "wrong". Both sides are wrong. The bullies are wrong for being abusive and the victims are wrong for not being a little more levelheaded and creative in dealing with bullies... and for not holding their tongues and incriminating themselves. Now, arguments can be made for whom is more "wrong" than whom, but the point is that to most people, it doesn't *matter*. It makes people uncomfortable. When people become uncomfortable about the situation they revert back to the basics they learned about the human condition, especially in their schooling, which is exactly why parents today tell there children as they've done for generations, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
Hm... I know some kids who are being home schooled, by a fairly moderate (i.e. not frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalists) family, and they seem if anything much more mature socially than other kids their age.
Makes me wonder if spending all day being "socialized" by people as immature as yourself is really a good model of socialization. Maybe spending time with a variety of age groups, and particularly older people actually provides better examples. (Not that adults are always the best examples...)
But I have to disagree about the public schools being "screwed up". Most people in the U.S. think the public schools are falling apart, but that their own local schools are ok. If everyone's local school is ok.... well, something doesn't add up. Most evidence (note: not the SAT, not TIMSS, or other poorly designed measures) suggest the public schools aren't so broken.
Personally, I think it would make more sense to create more charter schools with multi-age classrooms, and other forward-looking programs, than to have everyone home school.
As has been pointed out in other places, no society has ever become literate through private education.
Clearly this district is composed of a hoard of ravenous anti-geek maniacs!
They have, though some unknown mechanism, somehow managed to rig their page to crash the latest mozilla nightly...bastards.
Ah well...off to bugzilla.
-- Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. Guns just make bullets go really, really fast.
Fair warning: I learned my harsh and pointless lesson in private school.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
(Reposted because Slashdot got confused and decided I was an Anonymous Coward.)
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied? Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault?
What can the father do? Sure, he can report it to the school. Will the school do anything? Can the school do anything? If no adults saw the incidents, they effectively didn't happen. It becomes a "he hit me" "no I didn't" disagreement, which kid do you believe? Similar for pressing assault charges, without evidence or credible (adult) witnesses, it will never fly. If you try (and fail) to stop the bullies through these methods, you've simply encouraged the bullies to continue their behavior.
Worse, often these victims are being singled out by the system for engaging the "disruptive" behavoir. Not fighting, or threats, but publishing independent student newspapers, complaining about other students behavoir, protesting school attitudes. The only crime is thinking against the system. Soon it becomes clear that the school, the teachers and staff, and in some cases your parents, are a danger to be avoided, not allies to seek out.
I lived through this. I was lucky, my experiences weren't as harsh as many reports I've heard, but it still hurt at the time. There are several teachers and administrators from my high school for whom I still hold grudges against. It's hard to feel that a school will support you when the principal threatens you with lawsuits for printing (with your own money) an independent student newspaper (Hi Robert G.!) It's hard to approach a teacher who threatens fail you if you continue to question the value of their tests (even though you scored excellently on the tests) (Hi Ms D!).
Schools are trying to deal with the perception of increased violence in the simplest, easiest, cheapest manner. Actually solving the problem requires more adults keeping watch and investigations of reports. These take time and money, most schools have neither available. Until these fundamental problems are addressed, the bullies have an edge. The best we can do is support the victims.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Ok, first. That sucks for him. He should know by now that if you mention guns in school, somebody will shi* a brick and that'll be that. Its the same as the police who shoot people with toy guns. If I'm a cop, and I see what looks like a gun, I'll take appropiate action. So the school has every right to treat Sean like he could have a gun. Next time he'll say "If I could just pummell you into the ground, you'd all be dead by now.". Simply by mentioning 'gun' the school's panties get in a bunch, and he's in trouble.
Sets the image for the next kid to get pissed off.
Granted, its downright stupid, but he should have known better and just kicked ass instead. Fighting isnt the way out, but when its gotta be done, dont mention 'gun'.
> Before, a bully would have to beat the crap out of you by himself, otherwise he'd be a coward.
Most (maybe all) bullies _are_ cowards. But yes, I was once picked on by three older children, and it was pointing out just how weak they would look having to gang up together that stopped much happening until an adult came along, when they ran off (this was out of school, but I was in school uniform - they were from a different school).
Being fairly large for my age and reasonably fit at the time and having done a bit of Judo helped too, but if all three of them had seriously decided they wanted to beat me up, instead of just finding that trying to scare me wasn't working, I'd have been in deep shit.
--
rant
Why bother? Screw the school district! Screw the school! Screw the bullies! Leave them all behind.
It's the last month of his Junior Year. He should have sent out applications to Colleges and taken both the SAT and ACT. If he is a smart kid, he is probabaly already taking Senior level classes. He could proabaly take the GED test tomorrow and pass it.
Once that's done, take some classes at the community college next year or go ahead and start at the university level. Senior year is over rated. I could have done without it altogether.
Chalk this one up to experience. Some battles are not worth it. Especially if you are dealing with small minded individuals who would rather get rid of the problem (or perceived problem) rather than address it.
What would he gain if he wins? A chance to go back to a school where he is made fun of and harrassed? How long would a legal battle take? Long enough for him to go to the last two days of his Senior Year? It's not worth it.
Don't home school him. Let him take the GED and move on with his life.
I noted the treatment of one of your "geekier" students, as
reported by Jon Katz, and was reminded of my own experience
in the Chatham (Ontario) school system.
I was nearly expelled for defending myself against one
of the school bullies, and only the involvement of one
of the trustees kept this from happening.
I strongly recommend you investigate the abuse reportedly
suffered by Mr. Sheeley, and intervene if it warrants it.
Sincerely,
David Collier-Brown
davecb@spamcop.net
Come on, post the district's web page, they'll find out what a Slashdot is.
There are two problems with our education system: (1) the 1:n relationship between teacher and student; and (2) the complete misunderstanding of what education is. Learning is not the memorization of fact--it is the curiosity-driven understanding of the world around us. But then, you can't have "standards" if you think of learning this way. And if we don't have "standards" our children will be behind! Buy a clue: they already are and it's because of cookie-cutter, lowest common denominator, assembly-line education. Children are not cattle.
When I referred to students doing fine before our modern methods of education, I was referring to the issue of social skills. Yet, I do maintain that an individual curiosity-driven approach is the only one that is fit to be called "learning."
The advantage to the "assembly line" approach is that *if things are done right*
My assertion is still that this approach CANNOT "do it right." This kind of approach can't even be called education at all.
we can be reasonably assured that kids will get the same chance to get on the same level. The trick is to make it so that the opportunities are there for everybody.
Any kind of extra-legal equality is a fruitless avenue. In addition to the mere inequalities of skill, there are inequalities of goal: not everyone wants to be a lawyer, or an artist, or a garbage collector. We all appreciate different things and have our own interests and pursuits.
Now, you're probably thinking, "But shouldn't everyone have some common level of knowledge in math, science, language, and the arts?" It would be nice wouldn't it? But the students who don't care for math and science don't learn even when they are in a standards-based government system. How many so-called "airhead" girls (contrary to stereotype, they aren't dumb, they just don't have the requisite curiosity) do you recall who never could "get it," despite a reasonable effort? If you want someone to learn something, they must have an inner-drive to learn.
The good news is that people can be encouraged to seek understanding; however, this encouragement can only come with caring individual attention. Additionally, the kind of nurturing spirit required for this is rare outside of the parent.
My take on it is that God designed human beings to be taught by their parents and that other forms of education are chafing, ineffectual, and worthless.
Riiiight. Christians *hate* the public school system and are the biggest supporters of private and home schooling solutions. Christians (*real* Christians--not Catholics or the Southern Baptists or other whacked-out Arminian groups) are persecuted all the time for not "going with the flow" and are the most adamant of individualists. They are the ones who fight so hard for intellectual pursuit and hard work and who fight against the mindless worship of pop culture and atheletics.
Of course, in an environment like Slashdot, it's very easy to accuse Christians of being whatever you want and get away with it. Have fun with your strawman.
You, not surprisingly, have no idea what teaching is about. A teacher is not someone who imparts knowledge to the student. A teacher is someone who encourages curiosity and a love of learning. That's it. Period. End of story. That is all a teacher does. The student does the rest (reading, discussing, etc.). The teacher lights a fire and the student (with the continuing encouragement and nurturing of the teacher) does the rest.
You're either missing my point or I simply didn't express it well. Learning, as a real process, is only done *by* the student (when he or she reads books voraciously, for example, in the pursuit of understanding driven by curiosity). The purpose of a teacher is to nourish and encourage this curious search for understanding. In most cases, no one can be more encouraging and nourishing than the parents. *That* is, I hope, a better explaination of why parents make the best teachers (I actually prefer the term "mentor").
The human soul (meaning the part of man that distinguishes us from animals) is designed to work within certain guidelines and for certain purposes. Teaching is all about the nourishing of the natural human curiosity which drives us to understand the world. Teaching has nothing to do with technical imparting of knowledge as this task solely in the realm of the student (the good student seeks knowledge for him or her self because he or she is driven by a burning curiosity). Parents, being in many cases the most caring and encouraging individuals in the lives of their children, are the most qualified to care for and encourage their children's curiosity.
When discussing social development, I was referring to the ability to talk to other human beings. The cruelty that you describe has nothing to do with this but is the natural result of evil human nature.
Your desire to brand conservative people as violent, despite the fact that very few are, is amusing. Now, you can settle down comfortably, secure in the knowledge that you put another "gun-toting, wild-eyed, evil, fruit-loopy, evil, rebellious, evil, demon-spawn, worthless, evil, did-I-mention-evil-yet?" conservative in his proper place. Bravo. When do you want your hero-cookie?
As for social development, children who came before the collectivist "assembly-line" method of education did just fine.
crap.
Hmm... so it's a shame that we have an opinion based on the facts available to us. Interesting.. And not only that, they won't tell us thier side of the story. So what, we aren't supposed to have any opinion on the matter at all?
Oh, and it's not just "those facts that have been presented". It's also experience with the public "school" system. If they had a reasonable record many of us would not be likely to believe this story. The fact that so many here do so without question says more about the schools than the article and the questions it raises.
WTF does "the human soul" have to do with learning? And since when were parents not "a third party"? And given the amount of cruelty in any Dickens book, which provides pretty decent insight into a era before formalized education, what's this "social development... did just fine" bullshit?
You are the one person least qualified to teach your children anything useful. Please, give them over to someone who knows how to think!
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
chances_of_getting_anywhere = hell.snowball;
Jumping up and down in PTA won't help either, not that anyone with a clue would stand a chance of getting on the board.
The big reason is school is doing what it's designed to do - it's working - so trying to fix it is futile. Sean's just plain lucky that he's escaped the system - sorta - and will be miles better off being home educated, as long as his parents don't try to turn their home into a replica of school.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Yah, but the real reason is: you're a threat to the status quo. School exists to deliver courses. Actually enjoying the course subject and running ahead of the messenger breaks the lock-step rhythm of the class progression, and also upsets the nice information heirarchy of experts->eddept->headmaster->teachers->students.
Welcome to the place where we're all equal, and every else gets booted out (well, maybe some are more equal than others). The school chorussed ``we're all individuals'' and your response was ``I'm not!'' (-: Good upon ya :-)
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
All of the independent tests done so far show HS kids either interacting better, or being indistinguishable from their State schooled peers - unless you count beating up other children as ``interacting'', which I don't.
The one exception that I personally know of was a Mormon boy, and the social difficulties were obviously associated with his parents' interpretation of LDS doctrine (many apparently plain English words mean different (usually odd) things in LDS land) in their everyday life.
All of the other HS kinder I know (maybe 30 or so) are more eager to converse, ask more intelligent questions, and are more likely to constructively use the answers on the spot than ``your average'' child.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
For Sean, it does. Or at least, it limits the problem to occasions when he meets his tormentors on the street. And of course, his home curriculum could include assorted martial arts...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
No.
Two kids who have either learned to first-hand at school or been pre-conditioned by others (e.g. siblings who have learned as above) will. Elsewhere, this is not a given. In home education, for example, bullying depends on the parents' attitudes and actions.
My number 1 son's interaction with a family of 3 boys (his cousins) is instructive: there is abrasion between he and the school-age oldest, and with the next one down, but not with the youngest - the oldest was de-schooled recently, and the second didn't go to kindergarten like the oldest, so the youngest isn't getting anything like the same amount hand-me-down attitude erosion that the middle child did.
I would suspect the regimented environment of intensifying the aberrant reactions, on top of this.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Actually, several studies have show that teaching qualifications impair your effectiveness as a home educator.
One example had mentally handicapped teenagers educating their children at home and producing noticeably better results than State schools.
Lay your fears to rest, Brian.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
versus
Really? Then why is it bad/naughty/wicked to murder a six-month-old child, but OK to murder that exact same child kicking and struggling eight months earlier?
You can't have your moral cake AND eat it too, Brad.
That holds just as well for religion, by the way. One major religion has been more or less directly responsible for 60 million definitely documented deaths, possibly an order of magnitude more and almost certainly more than double, PLUS more deaths from starting both world wars (lending a big hand to the Axis in the second), the American Civil War and sundry others.
And if you think that the licence for wholesale butchery on ``moral'' grounds is an exclusive possession of conventional religion, consider the Reign of Terror in France, and nearly a century of Atheistic Communism in the USSR. (It's 2AM in Stalingrad: ``Knock-knock.'' ``Who's there?'' ``You have to ask?'').
Now, consider murdering children post-partum. It happens right now in China to lots of baby girls, a consequence of their one-child policy. And it's being proposed as a legitimate activity in the USA by an Atheist group. Meanwhile, euthanasia is eating into our brains trust at the other end of the age spectrum. How long until it meets in the middle?
Moral relativism at its best. ``Thou shalt not kill,'' a moral absolute, is much safer.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Religion is a process; it's a process of exercising a belief; it's a belief in the process of life, possibly also afterlife and/or beforelife (although not so in the case of Atheism). Humanism, a subset of Atheism, is a belief in your own life process.
Faith in evolution requires belief without proof, often in the face of proof, so it's even a religion for those dimwits who insist that religion requires the absence of proof, or belief only in unprovables.
Evolution is a religion. QED.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Almost makes me wish I was moderating, but I seem to attract a lot of bad karma. Something to do with not being politically correct, I think...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Most people seem to think that I will benefit from a more educated populace. I agree. However, this is no justification for taxing me and giving my money to a government controlled school. Government schools will never improve simply because they have a guaranteed funding source (taxpayers) and a guaranteed client base (children of parents who can't afford to pay taxes and private school tuition and who don't want to violate the compulsory attendance laws).
Government run schools are a failure.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
Just check out this guy and his story.
-- Slef
I was a card-carrying computer nerd when i was in highschool ('90 to '95). Furthermore, I was a rabid Amiga users, which (in my mind, anyway) placed me well above PC users. Not only that, I was directly responsible for aprox. 12 students buying Amigas, and being introduced into computers (who then later went off to be computer artists, video editors, electrical engineer, etc..). I was also VP and founding officer of the Computer Club (and hated enemy of the head Comp Sci teacher because I kept showing her up...with the Amiga).
At the same time, I played Football (until my Junior year), partied and hung out with the jocks and stoners.
Oh yeah, I also played Magic and was an honor student.
If anything, I ended up tormenting other nerds (PC users) with my Amiga. I then turned around and tormented jocks because I was sooooo much smarter than they were.
Ah, did I mention I'm 6ft, 280 lbs and was able to bench (almost) that much (back then, I hate to see how I'd do know, though I am down to 255 lbs).
I found it real interesting, because I was aware of the fact that I was straddling two different cliches.
Though, by-and-large, it was the jocks I disliked the most. I didn't like the way they treated women (though I have to admit some jealousy), they were mean (even as a Football player I didn't get into a single fight during highschool) and furthermore, they were stupid (not all of them). I can give you just as many sob stories about my jock friends as I can success stories about my Amiga nerd friends. One landed in jail for robbing a Jack-in-the-Box at gunpoint. Another had a few kids, dropped out of Community College and left the mother of his children for another woman, etc, etc...
Anyway, some random musings. It surprised me to hear all of the negativity people experienced as computer nerds, because I mostly avoided one way or another. Now, what I did with the administrators of our school (Clear Lake Highschool) is another story.....strictly a love/hate/hate/hate relationship.
---------------------------
That's not what I meant.
It's really worrying that schools in Western democratic societies are becoming the last haven for little demagogues and dictators who delight in wielding their power over helpless students and parents. Why are these people unaccountable to the rules of natural justice that control the behaviour of every other administrative authority? Where is the right of appeal, the requirement to hear both sides, the rule against bias?
Well, many a year ago, I was in the same kind of position that Sean was in. I.e. at the bottom of the pecking order, and everyone thought it would be good to pick on me.
As a result, I have several scars from attacks by stick, broken bottle and various other items, and these physical scars are with me over 20 years after I left this school.
If my parents had found out about it, I'm sure they'd have intervened. Or tried something.
But, when you're threatened with more, by many people, then.. You learn to keep things hidden.
I did. And I got rather good at it.
Now, years later, my younger brother attended the same school (well after I eventually told my parents what had happened at this place), and they assumed that things would be different.
They weren't.. My brother is another free thinker, and different to the herd.
This time, when my folks spotted the 'signs' (and yes, you _really_ have to look hard in a lot of cases), they confronted the school board.
The solution?
The School Head suggested that my parents "Invite the bully in question around, take them both out for a day, or a weekend, and 'let them get to know each other better'.."..
In other words, my folks should pay for the bully's entertainment and food and what not for a weekend or so, just because he beat up my brother.
Since that day, I lost all respect for the politicos and ass convering administrators across the world.
Malk
Bullying doesn't justify making mock threats in return.
Damn right! Being in America justifies it! Mock threats are certainly legal to make in this country. Pretty much anything is legal to say as a joke.
Next we know you'll be calling the dissidents in China who get executed 'stupid', or black people who drive nice cars 'stupid'. Of course, the situtations don't exactly compare, but calling people who get harmed by an unjust authority 'stupid' simply because they should have realized it could happen is, to quote, 'stupid'. It doesn't make the situation any more fair for the person to realize it might happen beforehand.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Stop sending your kids to the government schools.
They're teaching to the lowest common denominator, and the attitude (not all of them, but enough, and this is the attitude you need to succeed, so the administrators are even more likely to think this way) is that kids will "even out".
If you don't want your kid to "even out", you'd prefer he *STAY* smart, send him to a private school. They're not that expensive; here in Orlando, it's no more expensive than a year of day care.
If you can't afford private school, stop and think about whether you can afford to live on one paycheck more than you can afford to have stupid, indoctrinated kids.
Or move to a state where the government recognizes that if you aren't *USING* the government schools, you shouldn't be *PAYING* for the government schools.
The bottom line is, don't be so selfish that having a nicer car or being able to eat out every night is more important than getting your kids an education that isn't mass-produced.
-
They should definitely get a high-profile lawyer invovled and sue the principal for the suspension, the district for providing no appeal or due process, and the state for failing to provide the support the students need.
Better yet, how much trouble do you think it'd take to get the students mobilized in his defense? I mean, even if they don't like the kid, do you really think they'd turn down a protest strike? If the whole school came in one day and didn't leave homeroom until they readmit Sean, or if they all just stay home -- what then?
The thing that scares me the most about this sort of thing is not that it happens, but at how quickly and easily parents and kids roll over and take the punishment. Sean ought to just ignore the suspension -- go back to class. Let the police forcibly remove him from the school, with the cameras rolling.
The other thing I'd do is contact a lawyer to sue your board of education for the cost of a private school.
"I can only show you Linux... you're the one who has to read the man pages."
I don't know if that would really solve the problem. Everybody is assuming that these kids are all brilliant. I can't understand where this assumption comes from. I suppose I was the kind of kid who was always bullied and would have liked to smash several bullies in the head with a baseball bat, but I learned to blend in with the background pretty well and had a pretty uneventful senior year.
But the thing is that I was never brilliant, I was actually kinda stupid. I knew the "computer geeks" and they could all hold their own a lot better than I could.
There were things like the honors club (or whatever) and the debate team, the FBLA, Academic Olympics for the smarter kids, and the sports for the popular kids, but nothing for kids who were simply dumb but didn't act out.
Sure, I had an interest in computers, but I was far from hacking x86 assembly like the "computer geeks" I knew.
But anyway, putting the gifted kids in a different spot isn't going to solve the problem of violence, because they aren't the same kids.
PS, I need more evidence of Seans "intelligence" other than the fact that he keeps floppies in his backpack and gets picked on. That could have been me, but you couldn't call me intelligent.
School administrators, it is time for you to WAKE THE FUCK UP! It is illegal in this country to verbally threaten someone with harm. It is illegal in this country to touch someone without their permission. It is illegal in this country to molest other people's belongings without their permission. It is illegal in this country to band together in a group for the purpose of engaging in other illegal activities. All of this, and more, is illegal, everywhere but inside of a school! There we teach the criminals that it is ok to do all these things, for the only people who get punished are those that you do this crap TO! They get tossed out if they show the slightest little bit of interest in defending themselves.
One of these days a really bright kid is going to snap and we will have an event that will make Columbine look like a walk in the park. Some day, and I fear it is not long off, some kid will really want revenge and his home-made bombs will denonate when they are supposed to, and hundreds of kids, and their families, are going to pay for the cowardice of the school administration to enforce existing laws.
What's saddest of all, is that cowardice is fueled by the sick practice of funding schools based on the number of asses in chairs. The schools are loathe to get rid of problem students not because they want to educate those kids, or think that they belong in class, but because the schools get paid to keep them. The school administrations are consciously choosing to allow kids to continue to be abused daily because the school administration gets more money that way.
How do we know that Sean told his father about the bullying, more than perhaps once, if that?
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Good point, maybe Sean's father should have toned down his time browsing the web and actualy spend some time communicating with his son.
It could be that he didn't know this was a big problem because he doesn't have good communications with his son.
If his son had committed suicide, the it'd be too late, maybe this incident is actually good news and he can resolve this problems with his son.
As for the school, yes, they are idiots.
- sigs are for wimps.
> Making a smartass crack about guns and toying weith a key case like its a gun (and obviously not fooling anyone, nor trying to) needs to be justified?
If they told him that was not to be tolerated by whatever inane school policies they have, then he shouldn't have done that.
Hey, I know it's absurd, when I was little people weren't this paranoid about being shot in school, but that's what you have today.
Either way, he shouldn't have implied threatening to shoot other students. Maybe next time Dad can go to the school and actually complain about the bullying before it escalates this much.
- sigs are for wimps.
Have you ever been bullied? If so, I doubt you would make that statement.
I've been bullied and I've done a bit of bullying myself too.
I actually never threatened to shoot anyone.
And the article said the dad was too poor to afford a lawyer, so in most places he could not afford a private school.
Either way, going to a private school, or moving to another district is the best solution for the kid. Suing is fine, but even if he wins or loses, it might be too much on an embaressement to have him return to the same school. Either way, the school seems to be run by idiots, so he's better off not going there anymore.
- sigs are for wimps.
This is not a "troll" post.
Funny, people complaining about school bullying, yet look at the bullying and censorship going around here with some overzealous moderators.
- sigs are for wimps.
Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people.
I have come across more than one in my life, but for the most part (there are ALWAYS exceptions) I have to agree with you on this one. I believe it has something to do with the fact that, while most home schooled children get better educations more well suited for thier induvidual talents, they suffer in that they do not have constant social interaction outside of the home. This does leave a mark on a person, but ultimately, most of our genuises don't fit in anyhow, why should we start making them do so?
You say you want a revolution....
A brief consultation session would probably cost you very little (if anything), and you might learn about options that you did not know you had.
A decent rule of thumb when shopping for a lawyer is that the good one's don't charge to browse. An initial consultation that's along the lines of "Is there any chance of a happy legal outcome/what can you do for me?" is always free. A good, honest lawyer will hear the basics of your issue, and then tell you that either 1) they can take your case, and the odds are whatever, 2) they won't take the case because the odds blow, and here's why they blow, or 3) they won't take it because they don't feel qualified, but let me call up my friend who specializes/is better at this sort of thing.
And yes, this is the sort of thing where you really should talk to a lawyer. It's a huge burden of your time/money, and you should at least investigate what can be done. And if you have money to spare, then please fight the good fight to keep this sort of thing from becoming the norm. A small amount of favorable precident can go a long way, and the mearest possibility of a successful legal action scares most public institutions shitless. The school district is acting like assholes because they are afriad of getting sued when there is a disaster and somebody gets it in their head that the district didn't do enough and is liable. They need to be more afraid of getting sued for violating student's human rights.
Yes I agree with the post above. I have some kids just a little bit from high-school, and wonder every day about the differences. This is very good stuff to be discussing here, as most of us will have to deal with it in one way or another in the near future.
Blogging because I can...
Banned Clothing:
All-black attire
Clothing, including tee shirts, which displays music groups, sex, violence, drugs, tobacco, alcohol, death, gang or hate slogans or pictures
Short shorts, skirts (must be at least fingertip length)
My comment: I don't know about your fingertips, but mine aren't that long...so I'd call fingertip length a short skirt!
Shower thongs, house shoes, military-type boots
My comment: WHAT? I CAN'T WEAR DOC MARTENS?
Grooming:
Bandannas, hairnets, skull caps
My comment: IIRC, there are some Muslim sects that require head wraps at all times, are there not?
Tattoos with disruptive, profane or lewd pictures or writing
My comment: But regular "I heart Mom" tattoos are perfectly fine.
Obviously there's some sort of strange thinking going on in the McKinney ISD anyway.
--
Self-righteous people who don't even understand what they're responding to really bother me.
The article says he was pretending to load a gun in order to intimidate the bullies. Fooling people into thinking that you are preparing to fire a weapon is a very good way to get killed.
The article says: "my son, being a little sarcastic, took out a small case that he carries his keys in and pretended to be loading a gun."
Unless these bullies are even more stupid than your normal run-of-the-mill bullies, or unless the key-carrying case was gun-shaped, he wasn't fooling anyone.
Loading a gun, or making it look like you're loading a gun is a bad idea in such a situation. Loading a carrying case is not really a big deal.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
If any of the students really thought he had a gun, they would have either tackled him or run away or screamed or SOMETHING. They didn't. They watched him go through the motions and nobody did anything except report his remark. I thought it was pretty clear that they all realized it was no gun-like object.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
If you can't get past the profanity, there's no hope for you anyway.
Look, mailbombing these idiots isn't going to do any good. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a knee-jerk reaction. Regardless, there will be so many of them that an admin is just going to wipe it clean every hour for a few days until we forget about this story and find something else to complain about. If you really want to make a difference, talk to someone IN PERSON at school, or at least stop preaching to the choir (Katz: this means you too). Stop hiding behind your computer. Throwing epithets through pseudo-anonymous electronic communication is pointless.
(segue)
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. Don't fight stupidity with stupidity, try to communicate. Don't hate the people who hate you. You might be surprised to find out that bully is a lot like you.
That's Doctor Dorf McMoron to you. I didn't spend 6 years at Moron Teaching College to be called Mister, you know.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I'm curious, how do you take the proper precautions for a fire alarm (i.e. evacuate the building) but still maintain instructional time? "OK kids, as we file out of the building you'd better be thinking about your multiplication tables!"
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
After all, all of those kids that bullied him will probably live in fear for their lives until they're out of school now :)
But seriously, I think the best thing that father and son could do now is go to the court of public opinion, and fast. Not /., though - I mean the "real media" that the community is exposed to ("what's a slashdot?" - he he). Try to get an interview in the local papers, TV news, etc., or at least write letters to the editor. If you spin the story as "why did our school systems allow things to come to this" you might make an attractive story for the media, especially since he's never been in any kind of trouble before. Make sure going to /. was your first step into the public eye, not your last step or your only one.
Try finding one sympathetic school board member - depending on the politics in your area, if the school board's a highly-contested position, there's probably a political split or two in the board that you can use to advantage. At the very least you might get a quicker hearing on the situation.
I would hesitate to go the legal route, simply because Sean's comments probably did violate the letter of the school policy. However, the school should also have policies on bullying and on considering all sides of the issue before expelling anyone. And if they don't, that's more fodder for the media gristmill. You want to cultivate a tone of "What the hell kind of district are you running here? This could be your kid in front of a kangaroo court next...".
Good luck, and make sure Jon gets permission before putting you in his next book :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Maybe because instead of using their superior intelligence (what else are Katz stories for, if not to tell us [over and over again] that the bullied are misunderstood masterminds, possessing more intelligence than every bully and American adult put together?) to solve a bully problem, they've lately been using guns and taking out themselves as well as innocent people in the process of their revenge on the bullies.
I thought you guys were smarter than everyone else. The best you can come up with is shooting yourself and some other people? How trite. If I'm getting revenge on someone, I'm sticking around to see it, and I'm doing something that doesn't result in me being in jail for the rest of my life.
Tell us how dumb everyone else is all you want, but shooting up a place is the ultimate in intellectual laziness.
Cheers,
Oh Hell no, I know the media sensationalizes everything that happens. Part of it's because of the 24-hour news channels, resulting in the top stories getting totally played out, no matter what they are. Part of it is due to the general anti-gun bias of the mainstream media. I'm a strong 2nd Amendment supporter. I wish that anytime there's a story on guns in schools, the reporters would relate the statistical chance of a kid getting shot at school with the chances of them drowning in a pool, getting injured in a car accident, getting struck by lightening, etc. And I think the media's done a deplorable job of showing the dropping crime rates in places that have instituted concealed carry laws, especially in comparison to those places which place heavy restrictions on legally gun owners — you know, ultra-safe places like Washington, DC.
There was a recent story (I want to say it was by Tom Squitteri of USA Today) discussing how even though violent crime went down during the '90s, ABC News coverage of violet crime stories went up 38% over the same time period. What a surprise.
Cheers,
If her office has a webserver and you'd given a link, this could be settled relatively easily.
--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
In the world described by Varsity Blues, there is no place for smart, curious kids who learn to actually do something valuable. The people that run the town feel threatened by these kids, and the Columbine concern is simply their most conveient tool nowadays to put the teen that thinks a little differently (or at all) in what they see as his place.
In this way, public schools display no values and show themselves to be a morally bankrupt institution. In many cases such as this, pulling your kids out is the best thing you can do for them. But your kid has to learn, right?
May I recommend homeschooling. There are many resources available for parents choosing to homeschool their children. here would be an excellent place to start.
The wonderful thing about homeschooling is that you can instill actual values in your children without the state breating down your neck. By taking advantage of the many Truth-centered learnming materials out there, your child can learn that he was not just an accident and that he is accountable to a higher authority. Our morally bankrupt culture will improve if we commit ourselves to these principles. All things are possible.
--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
The citizenry of this nation has consistently, and over a long period of time, established that large classes of its citizens (aka "minors") are not protected by the same legal rights that illegal immigrants and felons have access to. You can work to try to change that (good luck) but until that change happens you have to understand that those are the rules of the game.
Anyway, just because he can't afford a lawyer does that necessarily mean he can't sue the school? What ever happened to pro se litigation? It's not like the kid has anything better to do with his time now that he's been pulled from school. And if not pro se then talk to the ACLU and see about some pro bono help. I'm actually a little disappointed that he would have bothered to talk to slashdot before the ACLU. Talk about mixed up priorities; Slashdot is mostly about all talk and no action.
why? because i really like my kids and wanted them to experience the joy of learning what grabs them. when i saw first hand my 7yo with no math skills finally get the desire (mostly self motivated) and in three months he was at a grade 3 level - all my readings confirmed yet again. if we caved to societal or familial pressure and sent him to school he would have been sent to remedial math. but when desire and motivation hits, he has the freedom to explore and is not constrained by the ring of a bell.
i have had my amazing moments of coding frenzy that go all night, no constraints on me, no ring of a bell to tell me to do something else. schooling should be the same.
why? when on a group tour of a nature centre the ratio of parents to kids is about 1:1. when a very noisey school group came thru the forest (1 teacher) they saw our groups youngest kids they laughed and sneered at the "grade oners". then they saw our young teen kids with three year olds and shut the f up. it didn't make sense! what? parents and 3yo - 13yo together? something was wrong. a genuine look of confusion on their faces. but they saw real world interactivity.
Public school is but one alternative today. I have home schooled my kids and know first and the benefits. Luckily today there are some great resources on the net. My first read was John Holt. He has taught from kindergarden to Harvard. He started off trying to change the system from within in the early 60s to advocating homeschooling in the late 60s. I still love the book title _burn the schools, save the children_.
A blistering attack on public schools by the NY Teacher of the Year John Gatto - can be found in his acceptance speech Ouch.
Is home schooling for everyone? No.
But is is an alternative and a great one at that. Read lots.
SCHOOL-RELATED MISCONDUCT
A student shall be removed from class and placed in an alternative education program if the student commits the following on or within 300 feet of school property, as measured from any point on the school's real property boundary line, or while attending a school-sponsored or school-related activity on or off school property commits any of the following:
1)Engages in conduct punishable as a felony;
(self-explanatory.)
2)Engages in conduct that contains the elements of assault, as defined in Penal Code 22.01(a)(1).
(no yelling, kids...)
3)Engages in conduct that contains the elements of a terroristic threat, as defined in Penal Code 22.07.
(bingo! this baby's a catch-all for just about any "smart-mouth". Sarcasm-free zone ahead...)
4)Sells, gives, or delivers to another person or possesses, uses, or is under the influence of:
Marijuana or a controlled substance, as defined by the Texas Controlled Substances Act or by 21 U.S.C. 801, et seq.;
A dangerous drug, as defined by the Texas dangerous drug law in Chapter 483 of the Health and Safety Code.
(no gettin' loaded, ya little rats...)
5)Sells, possesses, gives, or delivers to another person an alcoholic beverage, as defined by the Alcoholic Beverage Code, or commits a serious act or offense while under the influence of alcohol, or uses or is under the influence of an alcoholic beverage.
(or drunk either...)
6)Engages in conduct that contains the elements of an offense relating to abusable glue or aerosol paint under the Texas Controlled Substances Act, or relating to volatile chemicals under Chapter 484 of the Health and Safety Code.
( or sniffin' glue...)
7)Engages in conduct that contains the elements of the offense of public lewdness under Section 21.07 of the Penal Code; i.e., engages in sexual contact or sexual intercourse in a public place or, if not in a public place, is reckless about whether another is present who will be offended or alarmed by the act.
(let alone screwin'...)
8)Engages in conduct that contains the elements of the offense of indecent exposure under Section 21.08 of the Penal Code.
(no wavin' yer winkie at the teachers...)
Further on,
NOT GUILTY / INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE / CHARGES DROPPED
The Superintendent or designee shall review the student's placement in the alternative education program upon receipt of notice under Article 15.27(g), Code of Criminal Procedure, stating that:
1)Prosecution of a student was refused for lack of prosecutorial merit or insufficient evidence, and no formal proceedings, deferred adjudication, or deferred prosecution will be initiated; or
2)A court or jury found the student not guilty or made a finding the child did not engage in delinquent conduct or conduct indicating a need for supervision and the case was dismissed with prejudice.
The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the review. The Superintendent or designee shall schedule a review of the student's placement with the student not later than the third class day after the Superintendent or designee receives notice from the office or official designated by the court. After reviewing the notice and receiving information from the student's parent or guardian, the Superintendent or designee may continue the student's placement in the AEP if there is reason to believe that the presence of the student in the regular classroom threatens the safety of other students or teachers. ("reason to believe"?...)
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/
Perhaps there's an e-mail address or two where you can voice your opinion to the district administrators....
I mean seriously.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
Exactly. The state of our current culture is one in which a massive bureacratic process is used to compensate for lacking character traits in society, be they control of violent response, upbringing of our children by their family and community, compassion for others in the face of trouble, etc. And this large government body, much to the dissapointment of the body and those who elected it, is incapable of fulfilling the role as well as we would like. No, it's not fair, and no, the system will never be perfect.
But there is another lesson here for Sean and his parents: There's always room for improvement. There's always a flaw or a crack in the system, to which the individuals can contribute even the tiniest positive force. Sean's getting an early lesson in sociology, and it's a lesson worth learning. It may not be the easiest way to get through the next few years of his life, but a little hard work does pay off in the end.
Finally, let's review the results (so far) of these incidents: Sean (like many of us who share a common background) has been pushed around and bullied, not only by his fellow students, but by his administration. It's not fun, but he's going to come out of it a little tougher, and hopefully with a little more understanding of how to work the system to his advantage in the future. Given the concern his parents are taking in the issue, I'd wager he's likely to come out of this healthier and better adjusted then the average high school student. Even if he ends up being home schooled for the rest of his high school years, he'll have the opprotunity to further solidify a bond with his family at home. And regardless of where he attends classes, he'll always have the opprotunity to pursue relationships with past and new friends. He'll also be either pursueing a career, or beginning post-secondary education soon enough. My only concern here is that a little false security on the part of the other parents doesn't cost him a permanent stain on a piece of paper that will follow him around for the rest of his life. Any reference to Sean's psychological profile in his record should not be available outside of that institution. Not only was it performed by people unqualified to be handing out diagnosies, but the're confidential. Fight with those two points if you need to. But honestly, I have to believe that Sean's clear well-spokenness will more then make up for a couple of stray marks on his high school record.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
Last year I was hired by a particular hospital in a particular town (no point going into it) and I was treated in a similar manner as Sean. The people I worked with were lazy and filthy, a department full of ugly, overweight single mothers. When the boss was away they sat around eating and discussing their sex lives, nothing ever got done. I worked the last shift of the day, so of course every night I had to clean up messes they left. I did a better job than them, and I never hesitated reminding them of that (I realize now it was the wrong way to be).
So they kept a close eye on me, watching for every single mistake. After working there better than six months I was extremely frustrated and jokingly told a coworker from another department that I would have to shoot somebody to ever get anything done. The comment was immediately reported out of context back to the wonderful Human Resources department, which suspended me for a week without pay and required me to attend counseling sessions.
That made my frustration worse, of course, and about two weeks after I returned one of them started joking with me about being shot, and I made another ill-advised comment that was easy to take out of context. So the following workday the department supervisor called me at home and told me to report to his office. I did, and was immediately terminated. The supervisor then made me agree never to set foot on hospital property again in exchange for my last paycheck. They also reported it to local law enforcement. So, after giving the company more than half a year of my life I lost my stored vacation time, have a criminal report at the sheriff's office, and am banned from the only local hospital for the rest of my life. It isn't just the public schools, all of society is doing this. Not that I'm defending the school, mind you. (I was homeschooled, BTW)
== Paul Rickard, Editor of The Microsoft Boycott Campaign ====
I'm calling the Mailroom Clerk right away. He has to know about this gross miscarriage of justice!
Reality has a liberal bias
In this case, I would be more concerned about the students who feel the need to lash out and put down a fellow student more then the boy who made the comment. How many of us nerds haven't been in this situation. Many more of us probably would have been suspended back in the day if this type of mentality had been around. You want a source for school aggravation. Look no further then your typical bully....
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
The Unions. Yes Sir!
Blar.
I don't want to sound like a troll, but did you know that the Teacher's Union is the entity that pushes for those rules? The unions don't want records of the poor performance of the majority of their members, so they push for banning recording devices on pivacy grounds. I am serious. They know the caliber of their members, and they know that the their organization does not reward those who excel. In my local schools, your pay is dependant on time served. That's it. Good or bad, if you hang on to your job (and the admins are loath to fire a teacher, lest the union call a strike) and you just keep getting raises. Granted, the salarys are not stellar, but there is just something wrong with that.
Blar.
In my city, 1st year teachers make 30-35k depending on district.
Blar.
Maybe his father can get some pro bono legal aid. I used to be against sending my future children to private school, but the way our public education system is worsening, I may have to suck it up. He should find out who ratted him out and make their life difficult. Obviously, the system isn't working correctly.
Blar.
Sending him back to that school is only going to increase the taunting, ridicule, etc. Those people never get punished. Either homeschool him, or move to a different school district. Preferably the latter, because while my school experience sucked, I still feel I learned a lot from interacting with other people when the interaction wasn't someone introducing their fist to my stomach.
I got the SHIT kicked out of me almost every day in junior high. And most people probably recall, no matter who starts the fight or throws punches, both people get suspended. I missed over 30 days of school that year due to suspensions and almost failed the grade, because I spent too much time getting picked on. No one looks into what leads up to those scenarios. The instigators rarely, if ever, get punished for their actions. What good does the suspension do then, if the root of the problem isn't attacked? I suppose it let me heal my wounds for a couple days before I returned to school and got some new ones, but that's about it.
Ohwell. Life sucks, and it's not going to change. Deal with it the best way you can, but the best way is NOT appealing that decision and trying to get the kid back into an enviroment where he'll deal with even MORE harassment and bullying. Move.
BilldaCat
>Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could
> have implications for Sean down the line.
Sean's a junior, right? About two months left to go and then he's got his senior year. Would home schooling be that bad for a year?
If Sean is so bright, then he's already taken his preSAT or SATs (heh, or the ASVAB) and is looking at colleges, no?
Are there no teachers at the offending high school that see it from his point of view? Enlist them to write letters of recommendation and get Sean his HS diploma as fast as possible.
After that he can go to college where after the first semester no one cares what HS you came from, or he can go the JC route where the HS background isn't an issue at all.
Sean looks to be close enough to the end of the school process to get out with minimal fuss.
Unfortunatly he'll be left with the memory of this lesson, but there's little you can do about that.
You know, I find that interesting - when I was 7, i worked out with my parents that as long as i stayed in my room and didn't come out (much), i was considered "in bed"; at a certain time, i would be asked to turn off the lights.
By the time I was 12, i would turn on the lights surreptitiously. I'm sure they caught this, but ignored me.
It doesn't occur to me that I was terribly unreasonable as a child. I find it very interesting, however, that the logical opposite of "follow the schedule i set for you to sleep" is "do not follow the schedule you set for me to sleep". I was never handed a fixed schedule to SLEEP - just a period of time when I needed to be in a specified location with restrictions on my behavior. Almost exactly like being at work, except I wasn't paid, and got to take long naps if I wanted to.
I miss those times, sometimes.
How many parents would send their kids to a "Geek" school ?
I think that there is potential for a school (or group of school) that caters to the interests of the geek crowd. I'm pretty sure that recruiting competent and caring teachers would be easier when you offer them an environment where students are curious, smart and interested in learning.
I've seen a lot of alternative school programs, and most of them tend to cater to "artistic" kids. What about our little scientific or computer geniuses ? Shouldnt they have a school that is there for them ?
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
Mainstream society (in this case public school) did give Sean a shove. That doesn't mean that he has to give up and resort to being home schooled. Shove back. Talk to some people at private schools. There are a ton of scholarships out there for smart kids.
High school isn't really about learning trig and reading Hamlet. It's about learning how to deal with a bunch of people who are different than you. Sure, high school is full of assholes. And every year a million of them graduate and become "real world" assholes. You still have to deal with them.
Sorry if I'm anti-home schooling. I went to a high school with 4000 kids and it was a great experience.
-B
-sk
If I'm getting revenge on someone, I'm sticking around to see it, and I'm doing something that doesn't result in me being in jail for the rest of my life.
/.) headlines.
Exactly. We only hear about the ones that get caught . The ones that get their revenge the smart way don't make national (or
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
The rest of your life won't be this way.
... being a know-it-all doesn't ... but having real intelligence isn't something that gets "squished" in college the same way it might in high school)
High School can be a wonderful experience, but it can also be a terrible one. I won't lie to you; it's not easy. I hated high school at first, but as it went on, and I found the right friends and the right teachers, I actually enjoyed it.
Everything changes when you go to college. See, in college, everyone there is _paying to go there._ As such, it's a totally different environment. Being one of the "smart kids" earns you respect.
(Note, being a "smart ass" doesn't
You're only a freshman -- give school a little time. Maybe you'll find some people who you feel comfortable letting in to your life. Maybe you won't. But four years is a long time to shut everyone out....
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3714/asshole_son.html
Mike
I had the exact same problem as Sean all through Junior high and High school (except I was short, pudgy, and nerdy.)
The summer before my senior year I had a revelation. Bullies are inherintly cowards and what the fear most 1) Loss of face 2) Getting hurt.
If the verbally teased me, I ignored it. If they touched me, I broke bones.
The word got out in very short order that I was going to take to a level they dared not follow.
I had more then one run in with school administrators, but simple words "He assaulted me, I defended myself, I would like you to call the police, I wish to press charges." makes them pee themselves quite effectively.
Remember the legal definition of assault.
"An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another. "
"The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another. "
*A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.*
Yes, you are the only person who is wondering how much "bullying" Sean was subjected to..
I for one was 5'1", glasses, no style, acne, and puny in high school.
I was in the band, played a number of instruments, was into electronic music, and was (is?) a computer geek from the first time I played a Vectrex.
Besides the constant - i mean _every_ _fucking_ day in at least one class per semester, if not more - verbal harrassment...
such as "Hey, fuck face... what did you and your little band nerds do this weekend? Blow each other on the bus?"
physical harrassment....
such as pushing, slapping on the head, punching in the arm, getting cross-checked (sorry for the hockey term, but I play hockey (now) and upon reflection, its was a lot of that) in the back, and then, for fun, during PE it would be tripping, elbowing, slapping (a lot of slapping to the back of the head IIRC) while running... and during sports, generally them taking out their agressions on me in the form of tackling during soccer (once got a broken nose) by guys that would one day be d-line for the football team...
it was frowned upon to even bring it up.. and any action by the teachers was limited to "hey, leave him alone" and a finger wag.
This is because they almost never outright beat the shit out of me, but would constantly (i mean every time you saw them) be something along the lines of a quick verbal along with a physical abuse - nothing dangerous - the teachers either had to see it (which they never did because kids are not stupid) or they had to just wag their finger because they all know how to pull an Eddie Haskel.. that is, they all KNEW that they were doing it and their fake "Gee Miss Walters" bullshit wasn't believed, but what could they do?
Can you see suspending a kid for "picking" on another kid? Give me a break.... Eddie Haksels father is either a lowlife or a rich guy (as was the case at my school) and so all they had to do was say "lawyer" and that would be the end of that idea.
Looking back at it over 13 years ago, i can now, of course, see that being a highly-paid professional and they are most likely either working in a surf shop or at Pup-n-Taco, I can live with it. I have a incredibly gorgeous wife, drive a nice sled, and have 2 G4's at home with 1.5 gigs of memory and a gigEthernet switch between them.
But back then, the concept of bringing a gun to school was just not contemplated.. yet i did snap.. on a number of occasions..
One time, a kid that had given me an elbow to the face - i went up to him in the locker room and beat the shit out of him with my cleete.
Another time, I took my trumpet and hit a guy in the head with it because he had backed me into a corner.
My father could have done precious little for me because, hell, he had a job. He did bring me up right.. and he did instil in me self worth and the ability to see a brighter day (because my dad was a nerd and he does just fine as i saw).... so i _knew_ it would get better, but not for years.
What was my dad going to do? Yell at the school? What is he going to say "the kids are picking on my kid"... and? suspend them? How? They were never seen, and they almost never left any permanent marks. And kids have been picking on other kids for years.
The problem is that people are reducing the options available for the weaker, geekier kids to retaliate... i'd get taken out of school for years now if i hit a guy in the head with a cleete... yet then, nothing happened to me. And the guy that i smacked with a trumpet so hard he had to get stiches? Hell - he wasn't about to tell anyone that a band geek beat him.
I don't know about how YOU had it in school, but personally, I think its about time the geek kids got back at the other guys in better ways... with their means.. making websites of the bullies engaged in sex with goatse.cx, having adult toys sent to their houses and such.. you know, harmless, but effective ways of tormenting them back.
If you discount the shit that Sean had to put up with.. and believe that his dad could have taken any real action against kids who, basically, didn't cause any provable damage - then you're a fool, or you were a jock.
If you think that you can have a kid kicked out for bullying your kid - then you're mistaken about your power as a father.
Unless you have the guts/ability|desire to play their game - by saying that the bully said he was going to kill everyone or say that you saw the bully groping a 12 year old girl - then there's nothing you can do about kids picking on other kids.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Does Dad still have to pay taxes for the School District?
nt
-- the cake is a lie
I think the point is to keep folks outraged that such things happen. If we ignore the problem, it doesn't go away - it gets much worse.
And incidentally, I'd be curious as to why you think: ;)
A) That homeschooling is "withdrawing him from society" and
B) Why withdrawing him from society would be a bad thing anyway.
--
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Light him on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life
If you can afford it, you might consider hiring a lawyer to interact with the school officials. You don't need to file a lawsuit. Just have your lawyer start asking questions about the school's policy on "physical and verbal abuse" and "harassment" of kids by kids. It might not help your kid very much, but at least it will get school officials thinking about it for the other kids.
The problem you might have though is how much the school officials knew about the harassment. If Sean has kept silent the whole time, and if the school officials did not observe (or do not admit to obverving) any harassment, then you are probably SOL.
We had a history teacher who was a big war gaming geek, and during study hall kids would play simulation games and even (gasp) AD&D. Of course, we had to keep it on the down low so the religious nuts wouldn't freak out and claim that we were practicing satanism.
My computer science teacher was also the track and basketball coach. My math teacher coached football. After a long day in the zone coding pascal on IIgs'es, we'd learn the benefits of being in good physical shape. (Hint: bullies tend not to pick on people that are bigger or stronger than themselves.)
To this very day I enjoy gaming. My favorites tend to be multiplayer team games like Tribes and Team Fortress Classic. Pure deathmatch style games just aren't terribly appealing to me.
But it was the bullies who brought up the "gun talk" in this case, probably in a calculated way. I'm sure they are having a good laugh about it amongst themselves right now.
We have to remember that everyone has the potential to be victim or villain. Everyone has a breaking point at which they can no longer tolerate being the victim. At that point, they will stoop to the level of the aggressors (or possibly stoop even lower) and become villains themselves.
Above all, we need to keep in mind cause and effect. We need to nip the bulleying in the bud before it gets to the point that it consumes the victims every thought to the detriment of education, sanity, and public safety.
In this case, there is no evidence that the kid was fantasizing about shooting his tormentors. It was one of the bullies who brought up the "geek shoots up the school" meme.
In this case, it does not appear that there was any premeditated wish to kill anybody. The kid simply responded in a relatively natural and understandable way to the bully's taunting comment "One of these days, he's going to bring a gun to school and shoot us". There's a big difference between his sarcastic response to their ribbing and actually compiling a list of people to kill, etc.
Several options seem viable to me:
1. Persue criminal charges if there was any physical contact (battery). The laws of the state apply in schools just as they do on the public street.
2. File a civil action - the courts have applied sexual harrasment laws to schools as well as other workplace style laws about creating and fostering a hostile environment so the school system could have liability. A more clear cut case would be to sue the bullies themselves for the tort of battery.
3. Challange the school's enforcemnt of its policy - if the school dosn't follow its own proceedures and can be shown to apply them in an arbitrary way they get into trouble in the courts. Since the bullys were not punished it would seem that this could be the case here.
An iteresting thought - here in FL the defendant in a criminal case is barred from contact with the victim before the trial, except for deposition or other legal related activities. Therefore just filing charges would seem to provide a temporary solution since the defendant would not be able to be in the same classes, hallways, etc.
The school can deal with diciplinary problems through administrative means independently of any civil or criminal action either of the parties wants to persue. I don't advocate every little spat ending up in the courts, but if administrative dicipline isn't working then I'd rather go to your house and take a battery report and work that case than have to handle a shooting call at the school.
The problem is that we're talking about the Machine here.
Someone who is different, extremely bright, and imaginative is almost by definition a danger.
That person is a danger to the status quo.
Take the example of of Ghandi. He was all of the above. He wouldn't hurt a fly. And by not hurting a fly, he wrested control of a major nation from what was the dominant world power.
Quite literally, he was the most dangerous man in the British Empire.
Put the different, bright, and imaginative people among those of the status quo, and you get one of two things. Either you get people who want to ride their coattails, or (more likely) you get people with a tremendous urge to beat down that person as hard and as fast as possible, before they have a chance to change the world. I don't think we're taught to do that. I think it's genetic--a survival instinct to keep some mad genius from turning us all on a dime.
It isn't pretty, and it isn't right. But it is so. It's as much a law of nature as gravity, and we have to learn it and work with it.
--The basis of all love is respect
"Ender knew he wouldn't just win this fight, but ALL the fights."
Ender learn't to defend himself, and look at him.
Please, please do not flame or crapflood these people. I have just taken 90 minutes to write a letter to them to try to reason with them, and I hope that it won't get lost in the flames.
Really, if we want to help Sean, we must act positively. Write messages supporting him and explaining our position about this. Don't email bomb them, send them threats, or fill their box with obscense messages. That will never help Sean out.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
If you're a father then you should know how the typical conversation between a kid and his dad can go:
Father: "So son, how was your day at school."
Son: "Okay."
Father: "What did you learn?"
Son: "Nothing."
Father: "Meet any girls today?"
Son: "Daaayyyyd"
Father: "Anything I should know about?"
Son: "Nothing."
Father: "Kill anyone today."
Son: "Nope."
The point is, unless you've got an unusually strong bond with your kid the conversation tends to be a bit one sided. This means that in the real world you never know there's a problem with your kid in school until it jumps out and bites you in the butt.
This I know from being on both sides of the street. I was the kid who got in trouble and got suspended. If my dad knew half of the things I was up to he would have had a heart attack.
In most cases of harrassment at school kids don't report it because it is humiliating enough as it is. Don't you just think it's possible the kid never told his dad he had a problem.
On a side note: "If this had been a real gun, you'd be dead," is neither a threat nor is it stupid. It's just a statement. I would sue the school and go for damages. Let the district pay for its stupidity.
On another side note: Where's the web site for the school so we can spam them into oblivion.
Beware the wood elf!!!
Teaching the kid martial arts would also help.
This is what I thought about when I first read this. And not because of the need to stand for yourself or to fight back physically, but for the social skills that you can get out of proper martial arts training. It can be also very useful addition to home schooling by providing physical activity and social interactions, in an atmosphere that is very different from the one in highschool.
And since the kid is in the Dallas area, here are two links for martial arts schools, that I know personally about: Japan Shotokan Karate and JKA Dallas.
Good luck!
Christians are probably the largest group of homeschool kids because they are the #1 targeted group. Try and do a report or make a graduation speech mentioning Christ and see how far you get.
.. not just them.
Oh, that's rich. Christians are "targeted" because they are not allowed to preach to students in public schools. I've got some news for you, Chuckles: you're not going to get very far if you try to mention Allah, Shiva, Odin, Kali, L. Ron Hubbard, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Jim Jones, either. If the fundies spent as much time boning up on the First Amendment as they did the Second, they would understand that the Establishment Clause applies to everybody
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
What is the idea here? This kid's a typical fucked-up kid and he gets in trouble.
I think the idea is that the other fucked-up kids that have been harassing and abusing him didn't get in trouble. The lack of an actual investigation in favour of a knee-jerk expulsion probably didn't help.
Quite frankly, if Sean was "fucked-up", as you describe him, that final rejection would have probably triggered the kind of shooting nightmare the administrators, in their fear, were trying to avoid. But then, I guess thought before action has never been a requirement of public education leadership, as sad and pathetic as it seems.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I'm appreciative of good teachers and administrators as well; a few good teachers are the reason I didn't just give up on high school completely after a first couple of really, really crappy years. I don't think "appease[ing] the majority" requires letting their kids be thugs while the victims get tossed out for even thinking of fighting back.
Actually, I think a lot of parents would love to see a legitimate crackdown on bullying and in-school terrorism. Unfortunately, the policies that are put in place to prevent just this sort of incident from happening are forgotten, only to be remembered and applied with extreme prejudice when someone who isn't part of a larger group mouths the word "gun". What I wouldn't give to see the proper application of zero-tolerance policies with regard to physical and verbal abuse...then again, school populations would likely fall by as much as half, with all the explusions.
Maybe that would be a good thing; let the people who wish to learn remain, boot the idiots who refuse to be taught and let them learn on their own.
A million maybes...and no answers. Although, a good way to start might be a parent or victim standing up to say "Stop. This is wrong, and it needs to be changed, and I bet I can find one million people who agree with me."
Dreams...
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
...a 12-year-old New Jersey girl was threatened with three days of suspension...for using sign language on a bus?
The Associated Press story is reposted at Indymedia.
Also note the link to the school district's site in the comments...give 'em hell.
At this rate, blind people will be suspended for bringing white canes to school...
I have to wonder, in the midst of all this madness...what the flying fuck is going on around here? Who started handing out the stupid pills, and why are they so fucking popular with school administrators?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Yes, the school administrators are over reacting, and yes, the punishment does not fit the offense by a long shot. But what do we expect from public schools, nobody ever said they were run by intelligent people.
And that's to be accepted in a "civilized" society?
Fuck that.
People pay hard-earned tax dollars to cover the cost of public education, in the hope that their children might - MIGHT - learn enough to survive on their own, perhaps get a good job, make a few friends.
People do not pay hard-earned tax dollars to have their children bullied and threatened while teachers and administrators stand by and do nothing, unless the victims even hint at striking back, in which case the pop pseudopsychology kicks in, and suddenly they become crusading defenders. Of who and what, I'm not sure. Maybe of their jobs - "I prevented another Columbine, give me a raise!" - or some other demented reason.
Maybe parents of abused students (and that's exactly the term for it, abuse) should pull their kids out and send them to private schools. Maybe they should home-school. Maybe they should refuse to pay taxes until they start getting their money's worth. Maybe parents and kids should stage protests, sit-ins, demand the bums be thrown out, demand that some justice and sanity start being applied to the schools they (and you) pay for.
Maybe some parents should start taking an active interest in what their kids are doing outside of home. I wonder how many of the bullies' folks know how they treat other kids. I wonder if they even care.
A stupid statement like Sean's probably would have been ignored ten, even five years ago. For that matter, so would the bullying.
Perhaps if abused students and their parents took a stand and demanded a crackdown on the type of abuse that occurs in public schools, the backlashes wouldn't happen anymore.
end rant.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
The PROBLEM with making threats is the the bullies have learned where the "edges" of the system are, and how to manipulate the system for their own gain. You make a threat, THEY go to the adminstrator, and use THAT to bully you!
Let me tell you what DID work for ME
I was the kid in Jr high that got picked on all the time, and beat on at least twice a week, and even stabbed with an xacto knife once. I tried the school administrators, I tried Mom and Dad. Nothing worked, until...
Dad decided it was time for me to play the bullies own game back. Dad taught me to FIGHT. Not "clean" like most kids, but dirty. HOW dirty? Dad was in the OSS (Folks, these guys were the foundation of ALL US Military special forces). He taught me a bunch of what they taught him
I didn't make ANY threats. I just kicked the crap out of the bullies. Believe it or not, you'll probably get suspended for LESS time (Heck, the bullies don't get tossed, right?). After you take out the top one or two bullies once or twice, it ENDS. They realize you are no longer the easy target
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Nice troll dimwit.
---
a simpler method is to enroll the kid in a private school. there is no need for the kid to deal with all this crap. just enroll in a school where the teachers are not minimum wage grunts under union control with wildly hysterical tendencies. you get what you pay for i guess.
Is it possible that the school board did the right thing??
The school board was wrong, and so was the kid. Instead of acting like he had a gun and making threats (dumb when surrounded by panicky public school robots), he should have tried to get the bully expelled for mentioning guns. Don't go running tho the principal or anything like that, just say in a loud voice "If YOU brought YOUR gun to school, YOU'D probably shoot me first!" After all, the bully mentioned the gun first. The same reaction would follow, only the bully would be on the business end of it.
--
Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
It is ridiculous for a principle or head teacher to expel a child for a first offence which does not break any laws.
It would appear from the article that there is no legal recourse, in which case the only options are home schooling (already being done) and publicity.
An appeal to the local community about the idiocy of letting kids play cowboys and indians one day and throwing them out of school for shouting 'BANG' the next might (might!) get the point across to the idiots in charge of the school that it is they are failing to provide a sane response, not the child in question who is insane.
Justin
--
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
If the administrators won't do their job - ensuring a safe public education for ALL students - then REMOVE THEM FROM OFFICE!. If the principal won't do his job, fire him for cause! (Something that the school board can do).
The principal and school board will drag out this case for years in the court, and will do everything they can to keep others from learning the details. They'll even claim it's for Sean's protection.
But they can't stop the media from covering a candidate for political office demanding accountability by principals when they attempt to violate the Constitutional rights of students. They can't stop the media from doing "candidate profiles" where Patrick explains that he's running the school board because his son was hounded out of the school by teenage morons and spineless administrators -- and he wants to protect other families from the pain his suffered.
As an aside, our local school board got out of control a few years ago. They eventually sacked the popular principal of one of the high schools, installing their own crony. None of them survived the next election cycle, and that ex-principal became the new head of the school board. School board elections are normally low on the political radar - unless you have children in the public schools, they rarely grab your attention. But that means that one person, with a good cause, can bring in enough extra voters to replace boards en masse.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Every security scenario uses some form of this. Otherwise you'd never be able to store everything that goes on, because it's an infinitely increasing amount of data. So whether it's a looped tape, or a recycling policy, you have a window to discover that something happened and to grab the tape in question. Otherwise the tape will be recycled and then the data is gone for good.
it's just like tape backing up your computer. You can't possibly afford enough tape to never recycle one, so you institute a policy which gives you usually a 1 or 2 week window. If you discover you need to restore something, if the damage happened more than 1 or 2 weeks ago, it's gone for good.
What he's saying is that there was such short recycling on the tape used that by the time they realized there was a problem it was too late.
I feel badly for Patrick because this question has really put him in the spotlight as a parent. And its a really tough time to be a parent.
For our own two teenage boys, we have a weekly recitation on what not to bring to school (alcohol, drugs, weapons (guns, knives, laser pointers), large amounts of cash (over $20) and pornography), what not to say at school (threats of any kind, racist comments anywhere, dirty jokes in open areas and backtalk) and what to do if you are bullied (go straight to the office, demand that an Incident Report be written up, use terms like "I felt uncomfortable with the way he looked at me", "I didn't like the way he touched me/grabbed me" and during the incident look the bullies straight in the eyes - do not turn away and do not say anything).
I've heard of a number of cases like Sean's and if the kid has said anything threatening, suddenly he will find that he scared five other kids that are all a foot taller than him which ends up with him talking to youth worker/police officer with a tape recorder running (and maybe being videotaped at the same time).
The only defense a kid who's being bullied has is to stay calm and in control during these situations and afterward demand that the incident is documented.
Patrick, my heart goes out to you and Sean,
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Home school your son. He'll thank you for it later, even if he doesn't paticularly care for it now. Not only will he expand his mind many times over what his peers will, he'll do some actual learning, as opposed to simply doing busy work, which public school is well known for. He'll learn how to think for himself and have his own thoughts - traits which are drastically lacking in this society, as is portrayed by the assinine behavior of the administrators.
As for you, Katz, STFU. Please. Enough of this 'defend the poor, helpless, underage geeks!' These kids are capable of defending themselves in such situations - I did. Granted, my parents backed me up, but I took the initiative. A kid has been picking on you? Talk to the administration about the harassment, or simply tell the kid to leave you alone. If he doesn't, talk to the administration. If still nothing helps due to stupid school politics revolving around athletics or other items, sue the bastard child's ass off, or the school district, for being negligent.
Heck, knocking out a few teeth would even be reasonable compared to the bloody stupid approach Katz suggests - I'm sure you could plead temporary insanity or provoked violence in a court of law and get away free, if it came to that. Invasion of self and property and physical harassment/abuse are probably means enough to defend yourself.
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
What you put aside was not a prejudice (an attitude formed without examining any evidence), but a judgment (a determination based on someone's observed behavior). Putting aside a prejudice is commendable, putting aside a judgment is irrational (unless the judgment is undermined by contradictory logic and evidence).
This confusion is what leads to things like linuxrunner's story about the goth gang that spun some BS about "discrimination becuase of looks" when the issue was in fact discrimination because of misconduct.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Er, they could have done that if none of us had ever heard this story. You said it yourself:
Specifically in the Sheeley case, there will be a great deal of fingerpointing, trumped up charges....
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
So, when is the Galactic Imperial Proconsul going to call in some off-planet police and armed forces who can be trusted with these tools?
I've seen first-post trolls that were better thought through than this.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Well, yes. Every functional society banishes people who engage in assault, theft, vandalism, etc.
To develop an alternate educational system catering only to the geek, the meek and the ones who do not speak?
It would probably be more effective to develop (or, more precisely, to use the already-developed) alternative educational system for people who need a clue-by-four to convey the message that certain minimal standards of civilized behavior are required.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
I'll concede that it's a bit more complicated than shipping them off to some type of "boot camp" environment (though the latter should be there as a last resort if all else fails).
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
He didn't fight back, he used words that were deemed "violent" by the administration.
Now, imagine if he had "snapped" in another way when he was being picked on - but instead of using words he used his hands, his body:
Wrapped his hands around the kids neck and squeezed for all he was worth - looked around with wild eyes and a frothing mouth - he would of course have to pick the time to "snap", say off school grounds - maybe meet them for a fight or something.
In a fight - there are no rules - use whatever you got. BTW - you have a mouth - one that can rip flesh! Remember that! Gouge eyes - make them remember the beating you give them! Grab a rock or a brick, or a board - dirt, anything!
Is it me, or is there less fights in schools? Are kids afraid of getting shot later - perhaps...
Alright - I will stop rambling now...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Sure it's fun to bitch and moan about how awful the schools are, it's fun to teach them what a slashdot is, but that doesn't accomplish much, and taking down their sight (no matter how well deserved), will only cause us and others problems in the end.
It isn't hard to stop listening. The link to the feedback form posted in a comment above is now dead. They've turned us off, when this hits local press (and it will), they can now talk about unwarranted 'hacking and vandalism'. Since most people don't understand the slashdot effect, who do you think will be believed?
What everyone seems to have missed however is that the father is asking for advice. Not for a buch of geeks to get up and try to do something about it via email.
What we can do however is apply our expierences in the public indoctrination system, and give good advice. I'm sure some people have sent good email to the hotmail account listed, but most of the comments (at least the higher rated ones) seem to be more of the same moaning about bad teachers.
First some observations to Mr. Sheeley:
This is the general nature of the school system. It is unfortunate, but it that is the way things are. It won't be changed by mailbombing a single school, or even a bunch. It won't be changed by calling names. Legislation would help, but the Public school system has too big of a lobby to do anything about it in congress yet.
The advice I would give:
There a number of changes that could be made to fix the public schools. The idea of a publicly funded lower education is a very good one. It is one of the things that has helped this country progress as far as it has. Unfortunatly, there are a huge number of things about the schools that are badly broken, and those in charge are resistant to repair. The only chance for change is to make them choose between financial ruin, and change. Even at that, I often fear that like an old building, sometimes the only way to repair it is to tear it down and start over.
There is a civil war coming in the United States. Remember which side has most of the guns
Sound like flamebait? No. This is something I've given a lot of thought to, because I have friends who suffered through home schooling. I don't know ANY *normal* children who've been home schooled. WHY??
Take a kid who is already "different" and feeling pressured and maybe abused by his peers, and realise that part of the pressure in a teen's life is living up to mommy and daddy's expectations. Now put that child in a situation where he NEVER has a chance to just "be a kid" because 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, his parents are looking over his shoulder, and therefore he feels like he has to live up to his parents' invariably-unrealistic and often overly-perfectionist expectations. And the kid can't do anything about it, because he's even more powerless against parental expectations than he is against peer abuse. You can't fight back against your parents, eh?
Maybe that's why EVERY home-schooled kid I know has either had a breakdown, or has come real close to it. Home schooling is a bandaid solution that ultimately just makes matters worse.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
In HS, a couple friends and I were arrested for vandalism. We were guilty, did our community service, and paid the fines. ;)
In the car was a friend's BB gun. It had been 'modified' with a scope. Ya, silly, but it was a cool BB gun
Word spread quickly around the school of our arrest. Who could believe geeks were vandals! [gasp!]
The rumour mill, as usual, went crazy. Before ya know it, we had been arrested with an AK-47 and were plotting to blowup the school. LOL!
We visited the principle, explained the stupidity, they called the police, confirmed it was a BB gun, we had to talk with the school psychiatrist, and life went on.
THANK GOD I'm not in HS these days, or I'd have been expelled!
Idiots.
Call the local papers- get YOUR community fired up about such ridiculous behavior.
Go to school board meetings and be a PITA.
You can make this an issue if you rally.
Call the ACLU and see if they'll represent your kid.
GOOD LUCK, and stay strong Sean.
KM
Kinda like Moe, but just a little more Kool
Here's a simple recipe for any oppressed geeks.
1) be willing to lie.
2) report bullies to administration claiming they were threatening to kill you. OR make it more worrisome and say they planned to bomb the math club/shoot the calculus class/etc... Can be done anonymously or publicly, depending on situation
3) repeat as necessary.
Refinements: Terror is more effective when it's unknown. Start with anonymous reports saying "someone on the football team said..." then slowly escalate upwards and begin naming names...
Nice comments. But you're too detached, and your advice seems weak and ineffectual.
I think a revolutionary type person is needed to channel the anger and frustration felt by so many into productive change.
I just finished rereading "The moon is a harsh mistress" by Robert Heinlein last night, so my thoughts are leaning towards effective change and cynicism about govt.
Some interesting points he made.
Revolutions are created by a few people working in synch. The masses are only needed later.
Revolutions are only effective when the central govt is weak and distracted.
From my standpoint, I think the current school system is great! It has taught me proper distrust of those in power. If my school system had been fair and free and egalitarian, I might be naive enough to think my govt is also like that.
Government school is where the nails get hammered down. Where all the square pegs (remember _that_ show anyone?) get rounded off. Where you are cranked-out on the government school factory assembly line to take your place in society as a docile consumer of amusements.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Good idea!
The local newspaper appears to be the McKinney Messenger.
Their phone number is (972) 542-0040.
And just what does a parent setting a bedtime have to do with the rights of a minor with respect to the government?
There's a difference between a 16-year-old's mom saying "Be home by 10pm or you can't use the car this weekend" and the government saying "Be home by 10pm or we're going to throw you into a cage at gunpoint."
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You troll, the point is that *this kid DOES NOT need help*. This kid is behaving *normally* to being harrassed every single day. The other kids need to be LARTed severely, preferably with large blunt tools which will leave them crippled or in vegetative states for quite a while. You are accusing the victim ("typical fucked-up kid"). To me, kids who routinely harrass and pick on others are the ones that are "fucked-up" and need to be sent to juvenile detention centers or some third world country where they might gain an appreciation for actually having some smarts.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
BTW, local resident Linda Royer is running for the MISD school board and could use some more funds to wage a campaign against Anthony's #1 Choice (Robb). Mail me if you'd like to help.
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
Keep those e-mails coming!
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
My site describes the treatment I received, as a parent, by the same people who have denied Sean any due process. Since I was (what, censured?) I have not volunteered for a single event at my daughter's school (it's been over two years) and I fully expect to NEVER be allowed to participate in her class activities again. It broke my heart to stop volunteering at my daughter's school; now the only voluteer work I do in McKinney is building computers for the local Baptist Church instead (the same church attended by the Superintendent).
Here is a picture of the MISD Superintendent at the ACT Academy taken late last year.
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
..is that his father actually stuck up for him, and believed what he said. All too often, the schools would expect the parents to just ignore the 'stupid little kid' and take their mandate as bonafide truth.
Kudos to Sean's father.
Christians are probably the largest group of homeschool kids because they are the #1 targeted group. Try and do a report or make a graduation speech mentioning Christ and see how far you get.
Oh no, not more whining about how "Christians are so badly discriminated against." I haven't seen any... unless you count being unable to coat the schools in Bible quotes/ten commandments plaques, preventing forced Christian prayers in schools, eliminating classes that teach the Bible as pure fact, and other attempts to get a preferred status in schools as discrimination. I know some people believe that freedom of religion gives them the right to force their beliefs on others.
I'll make you a deal. You can complain about the mistreatment of Christians when: the general public has a lower opinion of your beliefs than homosexuality, when not a single politician in office has Christian beliefs, when most people believe eliminating your beliefs is a good thing, and when people are willing to vote someone else of a despised minority over a candidate with your beliefs.
Yes, all of the above happen to those like me who are atheist. Surveys show atheism to be LESS acceptable to people than homosexuality. Most people feel that eliminating atheism is a good thing. And there aren't any polticians that are atheist - or at least none that don't pretend to be religious - heck, there was a local election where an atheist candidate lost to a transsexual candidate!
Oh, and do you think the large Christian groups complaing about students not being able to preach in their graduation speeches would happily sit by if someone was up there talking about their Wiccan beliefs and how much it helped them? They'd throw everything in their power at the school to stop it. (And there is LOTS of precedent to believe this would be the case)
(end of off-topic rant)
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
No kidding. When I tell people I'm an athiest, they gasp as though I said devil worshiper!
That's probably because to many people, they're equivalent in their mind. You're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or a virgin-sacrificing devil worshipper.
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
Yes, what I wrote was definately NOT insightful. Especially not to get modded up twice as insightful. It was only meant to be funny.
However, I think you didn't quite get it all. Perhaps it had a touch of flamebait, but it was not meant to be a bash against Christians in general. Just the American Family Association (and similar insane groups, such as Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalation, etc) for always trying to shove their issues into places they're not meant. It was only at the end where I mentioned Christianity, and in the context of that group.
So please, DON'T take it the way you did, because that's not how it was meant.
(Yes, I know in some areas, the strongly religious have it bad also - not just Christians. But other areas of the US have the Christians in charge, harassing others - such as small towns in the Bible belt region, where attempts to keep religion from being taught as truth in public schools can cause a family to be run out of town)
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
It would be interesting in these cases if the family could actually mount a case against the school authorities for not protecting their son from protracted bullying, citing what he said as a result of mental trauma.... I can't believe an authority can have an unconstitutional right to exclude a pupil for the simple crime of trying to cope with harassment....
I believe they can do just that. I know there have been a couple of cases where people have come back and sued their school district because they were being harassed for being gay during school (regardless of whether it was true or not), and the staff/administration of the school was fully away of the harassment and never lifted a finger to stop it.
I don't see how a case like this is any different - once again, students being harassed by other students for perceived differences, and the staff is fully aware yet does nothing to remedy the situation.
Yes, I'm as tired of all the lawsuits today as the next person, but sometimes they do serve legitimate purposes. Teaching schools to treat all kids as being equal and deserving of the same treatment is definately far from frivilous.
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
(MORONVILLE, TX) - Today a ceremony was held at the local high school to give a group of children Medals of Honor for enforcing conformity. The medals, donated by AOL-Time Warner, McDonalds, PepsiCo. and other global megacorps, were for their efforts to expose fellow student Sean Seeley as a psychopath who was prepared to blow up the entire school.
"It took years of harassment and torture to finally get the student to show his true self, but these children refused to back away from their horrible treatment of Sean to get to the truth," stated principal Dorf McMoron. "We need to make it clear to these kids that they are here to learn skills to make them happy little workers and consumers for society, and that individualism leads down a bad road to original thought and questioning of our basic Family Values, and we can't have that."
There was an incredibly huge amount of support for the children from the community for their effort. "We can't have kids like Sean in schools. They'll ruin the educational conformity system that we so love", stated one parent. Said another, "bullying is a way of life. I bullied many many kids around in my day, and I make sure my son beats up on some faggot wimp every week, or I kick him with my spurs a few times. Those little wimps need to learn to suck it up, deal with it, like the ones I beat on. Guns are only to defend yourself against criminals, not good ol' red-blooded American bullies, and that's why I have my 350 guns and NRA membership."
The American Family Association was present, accusing the American culture of violent pedophilic homosexual atheist liberals of ruining society, and they are "happy to see one of the horribly persecuted Christians standing up for family values against Satan." When someone pointed out that this had absolutely nothing to do with any of those issues, they responded "See? They're trying to censor us! They're evil, they're evil!"
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
There are a lot of resources here. Lawyers, home schooled people, people who might have been in the same situation. I would love to get 100,000 people to give me advice in some situations. Especially in raising a kid. Having to read through 700 posts seems like a small price to pay for some useful ideas.
And, as a parent, I'm intensely curious to see how this plays out. My son's not quite 3 yet, but his future education is very important and something we're constantly thinking about. I'm sure it will be the largest factor in where we buy our next house. (Note: Put 'North of Dallas' as one of the places not to move to.)
/. editors and Jon Katz, keep stuff like this coming.
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You have got to love these anal school districts. No really, you have to or they'll kick you out. :)
We had a case here where a kid brought a gun to school, along with $1500 worth of fake heroin, this was a middle school. He was given a 5-day suspension and that was it. Another kid wrote a list of names out like: "people I don't like" and they interpreted it as "people who I wish to kill in a blood bath". People over react with the smallest things but then when big things happen they want to keep them out of the news. It makes them look like they're doing their jobs, "protecting our kids".
He's only got 1 more year to go then he's off to college where it will be different for him. High school is hell, everyone knows it (well, most geeks) where social popularity rules instead of academic achievement. But I figure, once I'm out the chance that the football star, fake 4.0 (no honors classes, easiest load known to man, parents are "teachers") will become anything useful are slim to none. We'll see what these people become in the future. I know at my 10-year reunion I'm going to have a nice little laugh.
This is woefully off topic, and I'm wondering how you found license to write this as a reply in this thread, but I'll bite.
Rarely have I read such a long winded and amateurish attack on evolution/atheism.
For the moment, I'm going to lump the two together since you do, although realize that there are alot of god fearing people who believe in guided evolution.
Under a purely atheistic framework, it is indeed true that the concept of moral absolutes goes out the window, but that's about the only thing you got right.
Check out this gem:
"the philosophy and religion of Atheism and Evolution says that murder, theft, rape, etc. are okay"
They certainly do not say they are ok. Morals and ethics in an atheistic framework have to be recoded in a non-absolute/rational sense. We're sort of locked in a large prisoner's dilemna in which our co-players are the entire human race. The optimal return rate for everyone is to not commit these crimes, and therefore it is in our best interests to dissuade them through teaching, support and sometimes punishment.
You have a severe bunker mentality that is becoming more prevalent in the religious of America these days, who perceive themselves coming under attack.
Well get over it. Open your eyes and your mind. Try to find compromise and cooperate with the "other side". If you truly have faith in God, doing this shouldn't scare you. If you truly have faith in God, you wouldn't be getting defensive and abusive in the face of evolution and atheism.
I can only conclude from your remarks that your faith in God is not absolute, and to compensate you lash out.
Confront your misgivings, if there truly is a God, he will show you the way.
Here in the Netherlands we have several types of highschool, ranging from technical schools to the academic preperatory highschool. In the final year at primary schools, intelligence and skill-tests determine the appropriate secondary school. To achieve fairness, it is always possible to switch to a higher level school, often using an extra year.
In the final years of primary school, the low speed of education was really awful. And I had increasing problems with dummer and stronger classmates who liked to pick on me. It was a real relief to go to highschool at the age of 12 with only the smartest kids in my class. The only problems of the kind discussed here I ever had was with kids from other schools. And the education was at a lot higher level.
This system also has its disadvantages of course, mainly the sense of 'apartheid', and the danger that an early and possibly wrong selection has huge concequences. But all in all I really think our system is to be preferred, especially for geeks. If I imagine being in school at 16 with the same classmates I had at primary school, I think my life would be living hell.
That's not at all true anymore. Due to the exponential growth of home schooling, particularly the past few years, clubs and groups have great social interaction.
At our church, home schoolers use the classrooms for group projects on Fridays, and almost 100 kids show up!
What pisses me off.. is if he would have just slugged the kid he probally would have gotten a few days supsension for fighting and that would have been all You are no doubt correct. One of my neighbor's kids recently slugged someone who teased him, and his punishment (for hitting) was only three days suspension.
My son is now 6' 1" and no easy target for bullies. But in the past, he's had problems, and I did try to solve them with his teachers. No dice. Kids must work out their problems between themselves. And that resolution must not involve teachers, that's "tattling", and is apparently worse than bullying in the current educational philosophy. So the only solution is STFU and take it.
I have a friend whose daughter is a year younger than my son, and was in a nearby school district. She was stabbed by a kid who had been tormenting her for months. She had tried involving the teachers, but the "no tattling" rule applied. After the stabbing the kid was suspended - for somewhere around a month, IIRC - and when he returned, the verbal abuse began again, and again, the teachers weren't interested. She's now in a private school.
Now, think for a moment. When did you last hear of a school shooting where no-one knew that there was something up? Kids hear things, they may take them quite seriously, but after a decade of being told to sit down and shut up, who the hell are they going to tell?
And if a kid is bullied into serious depression, is he really going to look for help before he offs himself, when he's been told for a decade that help isn't going to happen?
There's good reason to try to guide kids away from "tattling" for trivial offences and from becoming dependent on teachers to solve their problems. But wilfully ignoring real problems not only leads to the craziness of school violence and suicide, it also leads to keeping the possibility of school violence and suicide hidden until the death toll mounts.
I don't know Patrick. But I can not fault him for not having been able to acheive results that I also sought.
<boasting_type="full_strength">
I run two small internet businesses (website design and webhosting) that I am the sole operator of. I'm the Programmer, Marketing Director and Secretary all in one. I have constant contact with existing and potential clients that I communicate with through the internet, phone and meatspace.
I am a member of three local chambers of commerce (Sullivan, Fayetteville and Manlius) the meetings of which I attend regularly. I just finished serving a one year term on the board of directors of the Sullivan Area chamber.
I've been interviewed by all three local TV channels (WSTM, WIXT, WTVH), by the largest local newspaper (Post-Standard), and did a radio interview for a station I can't remember.
</boasting>
I could go on but I think I've made my point. Homeschooled students aren't necessarily antisocial. Look at the number of emotionally unstable, socially inept kids that have gone through preschool, kindergarten and gradeschool. Throwing a child in with the pack doesn't give them social skills. Someone still needs to be there to guide them.
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Scott Brady
OK...first, where the hell can you buy a gun in a CONVENIENCE STORE!?
Second, maybe if we get rid of all the home computers, there will be no more BSOD, hacked/defaced websites or 'computer errors'.
It's all about responsibility...NOT the tool. Any of these idiot, misguided children could have as easily walked into school with a knife or a chainsaw.
These kneejerk reactions are tired and old.
The school district already has the solution to school violence. A dress code! Check it out.
Quotes for the lazy:
Efforts are being made by MISD to ensure the highest standards of performance for all MISD stakeholders and to promote a safe and secure environment free of the perception of fear, threat, or danger.
A strong correlation exists between student appearance and the perception and/or reality of school violence.
It then goes on to list all possible fun ways to dress and look.
--source--
:)
[meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0"]
[meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document"]
go figure.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
Get out of there. At 16, with programming skills, near the top of his class? Take the G.E.D. and apply for admission to a University for Spring 2002.
I think the father needs to quit asking Slashdot and actually do something constructive with the situation. Go visit other (ie private schools)options in the area with your son and see how he and you like them. Most private schools around here will let you visit for a couple of days to see how you like them. If you don't like one, go to another, and on and on. Find some place where you and your son will be comfortable but don't home school him. Very few families have the resources to pull of the home schooling thing and very few kids have the discipline and appitude to pull it off. I am not saying Sean doesn't, just that it is against odds that it will work as well as regular school would. Don't forget two things:
1. Every geek gets made fun of during high school. I am not saying it is right. It just happens. It sucks, live with it and know that someday you will be interviewing somebody and then you will remember that this kid is the kid that made fun of you during 7th period gym class.
2. You absolutely can NOT tell people you want to kill them. You just can't. Not today, not yesterday, not ten years ago. Can't.
I'd just like to say something in support of (publicly-run) alternative schools. I was what you might call a "discipline problem" back in my high school days. You know the drill, bored with classes, extremely dissaproving of the way the school was run, etc. But I broke out of the having 2-friends and playing with computers all day mold (although, granted, it was still where I spent a lot of my time). I got into partying and drinking and drugs and whatnot in a pretty major way, and ended up taking out a lot of my rebellious energy on the School Administration, the details of which I will not bore you with now.
But long story short, there reached a point when it was not so subtely hinted to me that if I didn't get my butt into an Altnernative school (or private school, but I didn't have the money for that), I would be expelled. So, since my parents refused to let me drop out entirely, I ended up going to an Alternative school, and I would just like to say that it was a godsend.
I got straight A's for the first time in my life, and I actually LIKED my teachers, and was even sort of friendly with a lot of them.
I'd scope out the alternative school options available to you (if there is more than 1), as there are several that are bad, but you can get a feel for those almost as soon as you walk in the door. And I wouldn't worry about the effects "Down the line". It hasn't hurt me in any way. The thing that stopped me from getting into most of the colleges I applied to was my pre-alternative school record. Schools like Berkeley actually look more favorably upon an Alternative school education, because it is generally indicitive of just the qualities that Sean seems to have. But it's also a good wake-up call to the fact that it's actually OK (if not better) to live outside the "I must get straight A's and go to an ivy league college to validate my life" box. I ended up deciding that College wasn't for me after a year or so, and ended up moving to Silicon Valley and getting a very good, high paying job.
I'd still fight the school as much as possible just on principle, but don't automatically rule out alternative school, I think that they are actually a very good thing, and contrary to popular belief are not an automatic straight-A ticket, there's just less busywork - the academic requirements are still the same (if not more stringent).
Just my ~$0.02
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
CBC Radio had a program called "Schoolyard Bullies" available at http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismorning/sites/hea lth/bullies_001214/bullies_001214.html.
Also, CBC TV's The National had a program called "Bullies" viewable at http://cbc.ca/national/news/bully/.
There are a lot of links to related resources on these two sites, such as http://www.bullying.org and others.
Now, guess which one of these players will most likely be very charismatic, attracting attention of the children, being a role model? If you guess the bully, you can move to the head of the class.
Really, parents should choose who socializes with their children and how it takes place. If you send your child to the educational equivelant of welfare you don't get a choice in the matter.
I applaud the choise of awake (not enlightned) parents that can afford to pull their children from the grips of the school bord, and take charge of their children's education, be that in a private school or homeschooling.
FULL DISCLOSURE: My wife and I homeschool our 3.9 children. (She's due anytime now)
altogether. I remember wasting time in class, sleeping, waiting for hours while the teachers explained things I already knew. Individual education in much better for the kid - teach him the things he wants to learn, you can go at a pace best suited for him - quickly through the things he can grasp, slowly in the things he doesn't. Teach him calculus, dif Eq., multivariate, stats, etc - get him prepared for college well before college. Plus, since he's not in public school anymore, at least *you* don't have to worry about him getting hurt when a truly crazy kid shoots up his school.
Contact info for the school district here. Web response form here.
I write trance music.
I remember high school. I graduated in '82.
I was a nerd. I got picked on. I got beat up. I was harassed. I think I got kicked out for a day once for fighting. With a friend. His parents took us to see a play on the evening after we were suspended. Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
Jocks have always had problems with nerds and geeks. We didn't care about athletics, they hated anyone smarter than they were. Match made in heaven. But how many boys can say they got beat up by the captain of the GIRLS team?
But our administrators didn't have their heads up their asses. If these things were brought to their attention, they did something about it. You might be a nerd and a loser, but they'd try and make sure you at least had a chance. They seemed to think that keeping the jocks in line was part of their job - not getting rid of the "troublemaking" nerds who narced on them.
I was one of the founders of our high school computer club. We were allowed to get away with murder (do I really need to say that I mean that figuratively?). As long as we were pursuing a high-profile academic activity, we were allowed as much lattitude as the jocks who were on a winning team.
We showed weird movies in the auditorium for fund raisers. We did co-op marketing with Radio Shack. I went and testified in front of the county coucil to get more computer money in the school board budget - drawing praise from the principal of another high school in the county.
Somewhere along the line, the emphasis has shifted from encouraging excellence in whatever area the student has chosen to pursue to knee-jerk reactionary explusions of anyone the administrators can't understand or relate to. I don't get it. When I was in high school, none of the administrators understood computers, but they understood that we were good at something important and that we brought positive attention to ourselves and the school as a result.
These days, from everything I hear and read, the main concern is on stifling individuality, and most of the time, athletics is the only really supported outlet for individual achievement.
What the hell happened?
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
At least the recent rash of publicity concerning bullying will help parents/peers/people realize that the following statements made in a many-to-one situation (that is, when a group gangs up on a smaller group) can be emotionally damaging enough to either cause an unbalanced individual to seek recource through violence, or a balanced individual to at least vocalize the desire:
/been/ in a fight, much less believe that violence solves anything. Its simply important to realize that while it may be difficult to tell who's serious and who's not when threats are uttered (and this is a serious matter, I'm not protecting the kid above), we wouldn't even have to GUESS if parents and teachers took a more involved role in containing and controlling the bullying that goes on in school; and this includes making kids feel safe in knowing that:
1) you're a loser
2) you're fat
3) you're gay (although there is nothing wrong with being gay It's just that in the context of bullying, it has less to do with being homosexual and more to do with being ostrocized and isolated)
4) go away
5) get lost
6) loser, loser, loser
7) critisism. period.
As you can tell, I was bullied as a kid, and I'd be lying if I didn't say I played out some pretty graphic scenarios in my head. But I've never even
a) the matter will be dealt with in a way that blowing the whistle on popular (but abusive) inidividuals will not result in furthur abuse by other peers
b) being bullied is not something that should be accepteed
c) any recourse taken by the bullied individual to seek revenge without intervention by an unbiased party (ie, teacher, peer, mediator), be it physical or implied, is just as bad as the bullying itself (and I'm sure many believe that the bullying manifests itself due to unchecked agression towards the bullier from some other source such as parents or other peers)
We need to be open about these things; bullying is universal, and, from what I remember in school, no one does anything about it. I remember some kid used to climb on my shoulders in the bus, while 30 kids laughed at me, as he'd smack my head against the seat in front of me. The bus driver refused to involve himself, and I felt as if trying to bring this matter to anyone else would result in furthur persecution. Bullying is a serious thing, and people are finally starting to appreciate what goes on when it goes on unchecked; persecuted individuals cannot control their emotions, as they are driven into a state of mind no one else can understand, and do things that results in injury to both guilty, and innocent parties.
"Old man yells at systemd"
As far as learning about the public education system, while your comment may have been made out of sarcasm, I have to say that I would be a much nicer, less bitter person if I wasn't forced through it. I escaped early - into college at 12th grade - but those first 12 years (including K) were horrible. I will always remember my highschool with disdain. If it werent for the handful (more like 3) legendary, competent teachers I dealt with, I don't know what I would have done. It was a terrible place, and still is.
My parents also taught me this (though they don't remember doing so now). This was bs. My tormentors continued to pick on me, and beat on me, all through grade school and part of college.
I got beyond all that becuase I become so scarred by the entire experience that I stopped caring about myself, and became resigned to life as on who suffers, and am in fact fairly paranoid as a result. I expect people to hate me, and to pick on me, because i was taught that I was in fact a lesser being and deserve such.
The fact that I'm now 25 and haven't had to face anything like that for about 4 years has not lessened the fear inside me, and I find it very difficult to connect emotionally with anybody. But hey, it's my fault for not doing something, right?
Never mind that my parents couldn't do anything, that my teachers didn't care, and that none of the bullies even remember me anymore, most likely.
Never mind that I have no self esteem. I only got beat up once or twice, it's no biggy. And hey, everybody has it happen, so it's a non-issue. Stop whining and bite the bullet.
Riiight.
I will never, ever be able to truly deal with the pain or injustice of it all. Nor will I ever really be able to trust anybody again. But it doesn't matter, does it? Because it's normal, and I need to just grow up, and drown my dreams in adulthood, and keep going until stress kills me and I serve a useful American life. yay.
Todd
Listen to me Peter, I want this bench. You go sit on that bench over there, and if you're good I'll tell you the rest of
This page is quite inspiring. Kudos to the ACLU. Just gave the $35 to become a card-carrying member. I recommend you do the same, and let them know that this is an important issue to you, too.
Can your IM do this?
Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault? Whatever you may think of Texas criminal justice, there are still laws against assault, you know.
When I was in Junior High I got picked on a whole lot, my Mom complained to the school and got a shrink to help me deal with it. The end result of all this was ME getting sent to a special school.
The school I went to was basically a boarding school for kids that the school boards couldn't handle, I spent grade 9 there. The bullies in the school had things refined to an art. However it was about this time that genetics took over and I went from the little fat kid to being a good bit bigger and stronger than my classmates. It also happened that there and when I returned to high school I also got meaner than most of the idiots that used to pick on me. After a while it wasn't so much of a problem.
Based on my experience I understand why Sean's father might have been reluctant to get the school involved (I don't actually know what he did about it). All I learned was how to not get picked on by getting a reputation as a tough guy and beating the snot out of people that weren't intimidated by it. It worked but its' hardly a solution I feel good about.
People that run schools have absolutely no idea how to deal with problems like this and they almost never try. Yeah, Sean shouldn't have said that but I would have just hit the prick. Sean's way is still better.
I agree. Whats worse is that the kids harrasing someone don't get punished at all. I can't blame anyone for fighting back once they got sick of torment. One problem is that alot of parents don't take such torments seriously enough...it sounds like silly name calling to them. But to the student on the recieving end, its much more hurtful then that. As far as Colimbine goes, the ones that made the shooters feel like outcasts were just as responsible for the deaths as the shooters themselves. What do you really expect to happen when you make someones life a living hell?
If you want to stop school violence, crack down on the bullies and other instigators. I doubt there'd be any shootings (or suicides) if those kids were just left alone.
There's a difference between thought and action, lets not forget that. I personally would hate to have thought police around.
So let us realy look at what the school did. They suspended a kid for saying something, that was all. Furthermore, what he said was in direct response to harrasment from other students. One of the kids even stole some disks out of his bag just before he made the comment. It seems to be that students harrasing another student, verbally and physically, should be the ones in trouble. Sean has every right to stand up for himself it someone is attacking him. Trying to instill this take whatever they dishout attitude will not help Sean through life.
For those blaming Sean's father, consider this. How much of what went on in HS did you really tell your parents? I didn't tell them much, thats for sure. Usually i went and played nintendo to work my frustrations out. But did i tell my parents if i got punched in the arm a few times today? Nope...b/c i knew if they reported it to the school, virtually nothing would have been done to the kid hitting me, and as a result i'd just be hit more.
It seems to me that if one kid hits another kid, they should be out of there no questions asked. There is NO excuse for attacking someone (unless you are fighting off an attack). Had that bully been removed from school as soon as i said he was hitting me, i bet my HS would have been alot nicer.
The problem with punishing bullies, is that often they have been provoked, usually verbally. "Target" kids are frequently "wise-guys"; if they can't defend themselves physically then they attempt to compensate verbally.
Ok, that is just utter bullshit. I personally had never done anything to the kids that picked on me (well except being the new kid in 7th grade, sorry i didn't know that was such a crime), yet they did it anyway. If someone really is a bully i'd think most people know enough not to start making wisecracks against them. Maybe you didn't figure it out, but i'm willing to beat most kids do. So anyone else that was picked on here, did you guys actually start it??
So any "solution" has to include not only the bullies, but the kids who respond, and the kids who provoke verbally
Like i said, the kid to usualy start things is the bully. The ones being picked on usually just want to be left alone. I know i wanted nothing more then to be invisible. The solution is to teach these bullies to respect other people. The solution DOES NOT include me, since i had done nothing wrong.
If someone is harrasing you or assalting you, you do have the right to fight back with appropriate means. And i believe every kid being picked on should fight back. Here's why; the kids that just take it have feelings of hatred and revenge building up in them...those are the ones that will eventually snap. And believe me when i say that, i came damn near close to it myself.
And the solution is not just a matter for the schools. Kids repeat what they see in the home, and schools can't fix that. It's got to be a concerted-effort between schools and parents.
Maybe thats true, i don't know for sure, i never got to know the bullies home life. But part of the solution does rest on the school. Any student that harrasses or assults another student should be thrown out. In my HS i believed they were transfed to a juvy/school kind of deal. But this policy was too little, too late for me. But schools to have a responsibility to protect the physical and mental wellbeing of thier students. Not removing students that harrass or assult other students if failing in this duty. Removing them is the first step, b/c once removed there will probably be quite a few students who's lives will greatly improve...then there is only one more person to help (or lock up, as the case may be).
Parents who cop-out and simply blame the public schools are probably the biggest part of the problem.
Do you really believe the school is completely innocent in all of this? They routinely ignore reports of harrasement and assult, but as soon as a victim meantions the word gun he is out before he can blink. The school is doing something wrong here, they are not stopping the bullies! So yes, while a parent needs to teach his child not to beat up other kids, the school is responsible to remove that threat from the student body.
I categorically reject that statement.
Yes, schools should stop bullying, and most schools do a pretty poor job of preventing the tormenting of "outcast" kids, but this is moral equivalence of the worst kind. Bullying kids are not "just as responsible" as those who pulled
the trigger.
There are millions of bullied teens who manage to get through high school without massacring their classmates.
Anyone who places less than 100% of the responsibility for Columbine on Klebold and Harris is just plain wrong.
I'd say you've probably never been bullied before. I'm not talking about once or twice, or for a week. I'm talking everyday, every chance the bully gets, for years.
What the hell do you really expect to happen under those conditions? Do you realize that such behavior ANYWHERE else would result in the 'bully' being arrested?
Lets try an experiment shall we. Tell me where you live, and i'll torment and beat the crap out of you everyday while you're at work. The people at work will do nothing to stop me, except maybe say don't do it again. Or i can't come back for 3 days. We'll see how you feel, and what you do to stop if then.
As for the 'millions' of bullied kids (not just teens, since these things start way before HS), you're right alot of them get through it without killing their classmates. Those are the ones that are strong enough to handle it, or just can take more then the others. As for those that can't handle it anymore, there are two solutions.
They hate their life, it is torment everyday. There seems to be only two ways to stop the torment, since the schools seem to want to do nothing. The only way to stop the torment FOREVER (not just for a 3 day suspection..) is to remove the bully, or themselves. I take it you place no blame on someone that drove another person to suicide either.
That kind of thinking works out really nice if you think about it. So a black slave in the 1800s would be wrong for killing the slave owner? The slave owner doesn't deserve any of the blame for his own death?
Its not so different from a kid being bullied in school. Both live in fear of someone with power over them, both are abused, one more mentally then physically, but the damage is the same. Neither can appeal to authorities for help, nor can they escape (i HAD to go to school). Yet you blame not the person doing the torment, but the victim of that torment?
The problem with bullies in school is that most of the abuse is mental, and alot of people don't even believe there is such a thing. I guess you'd think differently if you had been abused like that.
This will probably be extremely unpopular but it needs to be said.
I was Sean when I was in school, up to and including high school. I attended public school through graduation. During that time I was occasionally (at the time it seemed constantly) teased, mocked, and subjected to verbal and sometimes physical cruelty, due to my intelligence, my short stature (at the time), and anything else that would differentiate me from those dealing out the unhappiness. I was a gifted student, played RPG's, was into computers, music, science fiction, and any other staples of geekdom that you can care to dream up.
I only got in a few physical altercations at the time, and I never threatened anyone with a handgun. (I had access to them; since my father was a law enforcement officer, he kept several in the house.) I lived through it all, enjoyed myself far more at college, and proceeded to have a fairly normal life free of the petty cruelties of high school, complete with beer, sex, and friends both geek and non-geek. (Now I'm married with a little girl.)
I guess my point is, these type of insults and taunting are part of growing up geeky -- is there a reason that Sean couldn't just put up with it and then tell someone in authority? In this time of extreme paranoia, why even talk in a way that threatens gun violence? If Sean's so guldurned smart, he must have known that his comments were going to be targets for over-reaction.
I am getting concerned that in the business of keeping our kids healthy, we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak). Disagreements or downright altercations with other people are part of growing up and you have to learn to deal with them properly -- without resorting to, or even talking about, using a gun.
Actions have consequences, and Sean is now learning that. Have the other kids learned that? Perhaps, but since Sean resorted to stupidity in order to respond to their taunting, he doesn't have even the benefit of satisfaction in knowing that he responded like a superior intellect should. Let this be a lesson to all the young turks: The best revenge is living through it with dignity. Anything else is a waste of your time and your mind. Remember there's a life beyond high school; don't let it cloud your thinking.
To Sean's father: Do your kid a real favor and keep this out of the courts. Teach him that sometimes you have to roll with the punches -- there's a true life lesson. Send him to private school, and look at it as the price you pay for not being able to teach him how to deal with his frustration constructively.
Once again, I'm amazed at the Slashdot community's facination with these matters. Ya'll think that just because you drove by a school building on your way to work today that you're also an expert at our public schools!
If you really feel that strongly about these issues, why don't you quit your "real" jobs and join the ranks of teachers and administrators and make a difference?
I double-dog dare ya.
Ya know, I don't think you have to become a tyrant to be a teacher/administrator. Explain to me why you think YOU do.
>Their inane school policies have no jurisdiction over constitutionally guarded freedoms.
I TOTALLY agree with you but, GUARDED is the key word here. If no one is willing or able to defend these freedoms we ALL risk losing them.
Support the ACLU. www.aclu.org
Disclosure: I am a member of the ACLU. Their sole mission is to defend the constitution, why aren't you supporting them? Don't you believe in defending the constitution ??
If you voted for Nader, THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!
This is not about someone shooting up a school, this is about a geek getting kicked out of school because everyone is affraid of their own fucking shadow.
Geeks are not the ones who retaliate with guns, dumb ass fucks who are just as stupid as the fuckers who bully them are the ones that resort to such insane violence. These people are the same as the people who bully them and just were never able to get into the "in crowd" for one reason or another. Think about all the bullies you knew in high school, how many of them do you think would have gone on a rampage had they been picked on? I can think of at least 3 immediately.
Geeks who are being pushed around by bullies, and now fucking school administrators are innocent, STFU and leave them alone.
Dumb ass...
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."
Or so said the Supreme Court in 1969 in Tinker v. Des Moines.
Their inane school policies have no jurisdiction over constitutionally guarded freedoms.
The greatest among us are those who have sacrificed their navels to the Potato God. -Terov
---
All your old jokes are belong to sigs.
Regarding HS Junior Sean Sheeley:
From what I've read about the situation you've mishandled the case with this kid. If you are unable to allow the bullied kid back into school you should at least discipline the bullies. He wasn't on the clock tower with a rifle - he was intimidated. He was the victim.
BTW - "What's a Slashdot?" Slashdot.org is full of literally millions of very intelligent people that drive the US economy and make your modern life possible. And almost every one of them would hang out with *Sean* if they went to your High School.
A link you might find interesting - http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n112100b.html
Thanks and do the right thing....
[my name]
[impressive title #1]
[impressive title #2]
& former high school geek
------------
DJ Raz
raz@wfnk.com
------------
DJ Raz
raz@wfnk.com
I see all these people posting about how screwed up the entire school system is, but i have never been bullied/teased/exiled(i was gonna use alianated, but i am somewhat self-alienated) ever at school. I go to an ultra expensive private school ($17,000 a year with tons of scholership money available). I actually have had a 1/2 bully who would say idiot things taht would annoy me, but otherwise nothing. And i could definitly be considered "asking for it," i'm always in the comp lab, i semi regularly carray around hardware. And its not just me either, there is a kid in my grade, cuacasion male, 16yr, always dresses in black (sometimes black with skulls) pointy hair, a gun freak, totally right wing, am i afraid of him? no. I know him, i seriously doubt that he would ever attack the school. I wonder if there really is such a big diff between public and private. I have never gone to a pub in my life, expecially since where i am (bay area, california, usa) local pubs are rated worse in the state (and the state is like #47 out of 50 in usa). Man this entire thing has no point what so ever, sigh, time to go back to that paper on the declaration of the rights of man that was due 12 hours ago. (ph33r the 2am of it all)
Only dead fish swim with the stream...
Rather than everyone launching into the usual /. rant about how unfair Sean has been treated, why doesn't the ./ community put together some constructive instructions (a resource book) to help bullied youth (and adults for that matter) respond in a way that sees the bullies stopped and punished. As Sean's story shows, what typically happens is that youth respond in anger and end up having their rights curtailed; leaving the bullies to continue picking on others.
No.
3 22 49&cid=597
See here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/04/17/21
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Okay. Fair enough.
3 22 49&cid=268
However this worries me:
"...the camera was on a short loop"
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/04/17/21
Why the fuck is a camera on a short loop?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Oh yeah sure.
They'll implement something half assed and cheap and parents will go back to watching reality TV convinced everything is okay.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Once a tape back up is made anew one is put in.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
What do you do when they do all this in front of the cameras anyway?
This is the general problem really. Parents have to look at the tapes. The tapes are at the school. Are parents going to look at the tapes? No.
You can't just put a camera and tape. You're talking about hours of tapes and hundreds of students.
No parent is going to sit through hours to look at every instance of malice. Those situations will be spread out over the tapes. You'll spend almost all day fast forwarding for each parent.
Parent Assembly Day? I can just see all the stupid parents claiming it's the school's job to take care of it.
It will be completely ineffective and just put cameras where they don't need to be.
I should know I went to a school where we had the newspaper spy on us. It was horrible, but it didn't stop any of the infrequent violence and it sold papers.
Is it an invasion of privacy? Yes, but so are metal detectors, drug tests and searching lockers. Why not have video cameras?
Why not have electrodes on their heads connected to a central database?
Those things should be removed you idiot.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Ignore legal advice from slashdotters, talk to a lawyer. Typically a low-level discussion initial talk to the lawyer won't cost you a dime, and it will tell you what your options are. If you can sue, SUE! if you cannot, do what you must for Sean, because he is what's important, not some stupid school that's afraid of it's own shadow.
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
I know from my own experience that candid speech is not liked at any school in this world.
(I am living in germany and got into (some) toruble because of a 'poem' about terrorism from MAD magazine
just my 0.02$
blurred
I agree that Geeks are much more accepted in High School nowadays. In elementry school, I was ridiculted and harrassed, but in high school, some people revered me (but I think that's cause I could arrange for them to pass or fail..;-)
My parents tried to home school me, but I was to advanced for that. My mom had difficulty teaching me Geometry, and we couldn't do many sciences (My specialites), so I had to go back the public High School. Alas, I avoided the jocks, and "pretty" people, and hung out with us drama and computer geeks.
And when adults are herded into buildings and forced into involuntary association with each other (prison, etc) they revert to the same behavior patterns...
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Okay, there is one other reason- it reduces the likelyhood of her being charged when she shoots him as he is trying something :-)
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
She (not you) needs to do something about this. Start a paper trail with the police, carry pepper spray, start taking training for a concealed carry permit (if you live in one of the 32+ states that are 'shall issue').
To sit there and say 'well, this guy might kill me someday, oh well' is no way for adults to live.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Heck, bring it up with the ACLJ, too. They've got good lawyers.
I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.
Constitutionally Correct
The key to solving this, as home-schoolers have noticed as home-schooling has gained in popularity recently, is to get outside the home. Organize with other home-schoolers and set up your own teams, clubs, groups. Get the kids signed up for dance lessons, tae kwon do, Scouting, church clubs, etc.
Home-schooling is a lot more than sitting at home 24/7 while mommy/daddy teach from a book. Think of the increased freedom to go on field trips at any time, to get practical exposure to the world (like trips to the store), to schedule school the way it works best for your family. On the 5 o'clock news just the other night there was a segment on how home-schooled kids are turning out to be the brightest and most well-adjusted kids entering the US college system today.
I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.
Constitutionally Correct
I have to agree...to an extent. Here in Arkansas a number of families who home school have organized and have gathering where all the home-schooled kids get to intermingle. But, for the most part their only social interaction is within the family. My experience with home-schooled children (sample size 5) is that it can strongly affect their social skills. This affect will probably be somewhat smaller on someone who starts home school in 11th grade, as opposed to someone who was in it for 16 years. In some states he could take his GED this year...he's probably already taken the SAT/ACT so he might be able to just move on to college next Fall or Spring
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
I was a band/computer geek. I played Alto Sax and messed with, at the time, Apple IIe's. I would purposely stay after school, just so I could get computer time. My family could not afford a ocmputer at the time, so school was the place I did. I caught flack with the other kids for that too.
Why do the smart get persecuted?? Is it because we can think for ourselves and don't follow the mainstream like kids who act like cows? Just because the herd likes Britney Spears, Destiny's Child and Nsync does it mean that I have to? Why is it considered not normal to like some of the stereotypical high school teeny bopper stuff?? Why do we have to like the same music or the same food or the same anything as the rest of the school?? I remember I had a shirt I would wear once or twice a week and I would get ridiculed just for that.
Why when kids get bullied in front of a teacher there is not something done about it? Let me tell you, if you can't handle a High Schooler, then why are you even a teacher???
I think the reason is they are afraid of the ACLU or the parents suing them for doing something that is not their responsiblity, yet the parent isn't even responsable enough to take time off work to attend Parent Teacher Conference night. Heck I used to BE at the conference when I was a kid, usually because the band played for the parents that night.
It's the bullies that should be punished. If my kid was bullying someone and a teacher or administrator knew about it and didn't tell me I'd be mad! The parents of these bullies never get involved in thier kids life because if they were, then they should know better. Personally, I think it came from too much of this time out stuff. Time out is not disciplining a kid, espcially if the time out space has Nintendo and cable. My kid will NOT have a TV, computer or phone in his room when he's in MY house.
Gorkman
That's where I believe you are wronge. It's my opinion that the biggest reason why there exist such bullies is lack of discipline in the home. Parents let their children get away with too much---what makes you think they would do anything if they saw their kids acting up? Disfunctional parents lead to disfunctional children---such is the state of our country these days.
You are only half correct. While I agree that it is the parents who help shape the child, the child is an individual, capable of thinking on his own. If we are to blame any parents at all I would start throwing stones at the parents of the bullies before the harassed.
I got this reply from the school afer my rant to them.
----
Dear Sir:
I am confused as to the journalistic standards of posting on the internet. =
In the event that this "story" was being published in a reputable =
newspaper, the reporter would have sought comment from the school district =
and background information on the statutory requirements for public =
schools in the State of Texas regarding student discipline. While the =
individual student's right to privacy prevents us from giving out specific =
information on this incident, it does not absolve the provider of the =
information on the internet nor an interested reader from doing the same =
type of responsible information gathering that a reputable reporter would =
have done.
Quite honestly, there are facts around the management of student behavior =
that would offer another perspective on this issue. Unfortunately, none of =
the communication that I have read today has been interested in the facts. =
It seems that most believe that they already have the truth, the whole =
truth, and nothing but the truth.
Respectfully,
Ted Moore
Por favor.
Justify his actions?
Making a smartass crack about guns and toying weith a key case like its a gun (and obviously not fooling anyone, nor trying to) needs to be justified?
since when has making a sarchatic comment acompanied by body movements with a harmless prop needed to be "justified"
If anyone needed a talking to, its the student who reported him. "Get a sense of humor", "Don't take sarchastic remarks so seriously", "Get a life".
Or perhaps its the school administrators. One student reports a comment and there is NO investigation, no questions asked, jump right to punitive measures?!?
Thats just insane.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Context is important here.
This was in a schoolyard or some such place, possibly a study hall (did the article say?). The rules of conduct are different there then in say a classroom.
Kids joke, kids interact with their peers. This sort of thing and more is to be expected. In fact, any school that says that this wont be tolerated in this context is being unrealistic at best.
Plainly it was not only a sarchastic remark, but he was baited (whether intentionally or not, it sounds like they were giving him a hard time for their own amusement and never expected him to respond with words at all). I would have probably reacted similarly, or "worst".
You might as well try to forbid the sun from shining or the couds from raining. A school has just as much control over these situations as it does over them. It is only their own reacations that they can control. This time, their reaction was WAY out of line.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
I do know how to spell sarchastic. Its not my fault that the people who write dictionaries often spell it differently.
Unimaginative folks if you ask me, what kind of idiot can only think of one way to spell a wurd?
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Unfortunately this is really a no-win situation. What happens to the school system if they do nothing about this kid and then he really does go on a shooting spree? It was a stupid thing to say, and any smart kid should know better than to make that kind of a statement, especially in light of recent events.
/. readers can sympathize with being bullied in school. But the truth is that nothing the school does will get rid of bullying. All the school can do is help kids who do get bullied to better deal with it. Personally I suffered a fair amount of ridicule in school, and I feel now I am actually better for it. It has forced me to really be able to have perspective on what people may say about me and to me. Being able to deal with jerks is something that is best learned at a young age, and the people who get through school suffering through all of the bullies and jerks will be all the better for it.
I think the vast majority of
But the real problem here is that there are people who think to make such a statement. What does it say about our society when kids make these kinds of statements, even if they are jokes? It used to be that the biggest threat was to have some kid who was stronger than you find you on the street and give you a bloody nose. Or maybe the meek kid would slash the bully's tires or key his car. The simple fact that that sort of statement is even considered is a huge problem in and of itself.
What students really need are hidden cameras in the schools. If parents of bullies would actually see their little darlings tormenting and harassing they way they do, I can guarantee that some (not all) of the bullies would get a serious butt whipping and would *quickly* change their ways.
Don't I wish! More likely, denial will hit like a tornado. Those who do "change their ways" will likey revert back, with subsequent punishments becoming less effective.
I went through this shit on a near-daily basis in elementary and middle school, 1968 to 1973. The school authorities were clueless and blame-the-victim then, and I'm sad to see nothing has really changed.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
How sad, that you feel the need to hide.
I was bullied or ignored all though school, and did the "hide in plain sight" thing. I've had to deal with depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder since then.
I've lived in the SF Bay Area for 4 years, and only in the last 2 weeks have I found a guy friend to do things with, partly because I refuse to let work define me.
Please, please find one friend who will let you cry on their shoulder.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
That sounds a great deal like my life story. We have, perhaps, similar pains, similar isolations. In the end, when you become accustomed to rejection as your normal state...you end up carrying it with you, always.
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
sue the school district. one of the reasons im glad im not in highschool anymore, i dont have to deal with administrators, or mofos with nothing better to do then torment inocents.
Better than contacting the ACLU might be to make an example out of this school. Take your story to Bill O'reilly on Fox News (I watch that show he'd run something like this). And post the address of teh school here, email and snail mail. If everyone on /. were to contact this people voicing our displeasure I'm sure that someone their would pay attention. Also any lawyers reading /. (ok I know its a long shot) willing to take up this guy's cause?
BTW its refreshing to see a good article by Jon. Good job Jon you covered this one very well.
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
The more I see stuff like this, the less I am for local control of the school system and the more I want to see heavy oversight by the state governments. I would also like to see the governor given strong discretionary power to punish administrators that make such stupid mistakes.
It was two years a go when i was kicked out of my high school. Why? Well I was forced to goto a catholic school by my parents and was often ridiculed by the 'Jocks' for being a computer geek, and all sorts of highschool bantor. I told my parents about this and they refused to let me leave the school. So i took matters into my own hands, i lit up a smoke durring religion class told my teacher to fuck off and left... Never returning. That evening after my parents anger had calmed down we got a phone call from the principle of the school stating that I was a suspect of bombing the school the next day. What a stupid notion, i could of cared less about that school. So i was banned from school property, and to this day doors are locked after first bell and they have 3 security gaurds roming the place... all because i didnt want to goto school there. People are idiots.
This is about a kid who has a problem conforming, this kid didn't fit in, it is his fault that he is being picked on, and harrassed. That's right, he's the one to blame in this situation.
Nobody will ever get anywhere in live wearing a automobile tire on their head, nobody will ever get anywhere in life trying to be different. There is a system here, it's not called high school, it's called life.. This nation is trying to raise good quailty individuals in their schools; if these kids don't want to conform, they will be taught a lesson, they will be made to conform.
Just because poor Johnny doesn't want to be part of the group doesn't mean that poor Johnny's dad should come whining here..
My advise to Johnny, to Johnny's dad, to the rest of you.. Grow up, learn to behave like adults, and everybody will be better off.
Disagree? You can send mail to jdeboer@scsinternet.com
Apathy -- The state of numbness of the mind. When you are apathic, you can think.
Before, a bully would have to beat the crap out of you by himself, otherwise he'd be a coward. Today, no such distinction exists. The mentality has switched from "I'm so tough I can beat the crap out of you" to "We're so tough, we can beat the crap out of you."
It's a hell of a lot easier to stand up and take a beating from one person than from a crowd. There's no honorable way for an outcast to resolve a situation, stand up for what they believe in, or get any help.
Let's blame the kids that're abused.
Education is the silver bullet.
Apparently you're unfamiliar with school politics. Granted, yes, the father (if he knew about the harassment) should have helped out his son by complaining to the school district.
Would anything have been done about it? Nope.
Schools, to AVOID confrontation with parents (being as how they do pay the taxes) will try their darndest to limit the number of parents that get involved in "issues." By saying that there are ten kids...five kids...even ONE kid who's harassing the student, that would involve confronting more than one set of parents. By ignoring the problem, you (AT MOST) anger one set of parents.
We had a problem two years ago in our school district. Two years ago at our local middle school, a student got confronted after school by others who had in the past been harassing him. They started again in their harassment, and he got so angry that he pushed one of them. After that, they punched him a couple times before a school official saw the scuffle and stopped the fight. Because the student who had been harassed began the physical fight, he was suspended by the school district for three days, while the other kids got one day of in-school suspension.
That was that...until the mother of the student went to the news and reported her son's side of the story. SUDDENLY, other parents (unrelated to the incident) started calling in and complaining about how the school handled the incident. The school district folded and dropped the last two days of the student's suspension. With this leverage, the mother filed a formal harassment complaint on behalf of her son to the school district against some of her son's tormentors.
Things were looking on the up-side, until the newspaper dropped the coverage. The school district then rejected the claim of harassment, saying that there was "equal harassment" on both ends during the incident and completely ignored any claim of previous harassment.
If you want to complain to the school district over the incident, don't just have your family complain. Flood the school with as many complaints as you can muster up from other parents of students who attend the school, as well as any possible news agencies. When it comes to the politics of the school system, unless there's pressure in NUMBERS, the administration won't budge.
CC: Phil_Gramm@gramm.senate.gov; rmhall@mail.house.gov
Dear McKinney ISD,
I was disappointed to learn of your treatment of the young dissadent Sean Sheeley.
Simply putting him in an alternative another school will not show the rest of the commune the cost of speaking out. Young Sheeley should be subject to a public caning. His family should be shamed and forced to work in the rice fields over summer break. I think even capital punishment should be talked about.
I hope the Western media does not learn of this incident and report slander against The Socialist People of McKenney. We must keep our commune for the people.
Regards,
Pol Pot
I have a feeling that Sean will continue on with his life and become a software developer or hardware designer making a six or seven figure income, while the school figures out why all of their valedectorians in Sean's graduating class can't find a job that pays better than flipping burgers.
/. lawyers out there that want to help out here, please do so.
I applaud Sean's father for standing up and saying "Enough is enough". As mentioned earlier in this discussion, if there are any
Yes this stuff is really messed up. In fact two weeks ago this same thing happened to my sister. A couple of kids who didn't like her told the administration that she "had a gun." And so they called the police, and arrested her. No searching, no questioning... just took her downtown. My sister 12 years old, she has no idea where to get a gun... she just worries about playing softball and talking to her friends on the phone. My parents were incredibly upset and are now in a law suit with the district to get her record cleared.. and just like in this story the students were not punished. Protected by an "anonimity" policy... well i hope they at least teach mccarthyism in school so the kids can see what a crock of shit the system is.
- "Never let a computer tell me shit." - DelTron Zero
37.006. Here is the due process requirements: (h) On receipt of notice under Article 15.27(g), Code of Criminal Procedure, the superintendent or the superintendent's designee shall review the student's placement in the alternative education program. The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the review. The superintendent or the superintendent's designee shall schedule a review of the student's placement with the student's parent or guardian not later than the third class day after the superintendent or superintendent's designee receives notice from the office or official designated by the court. After reviewing the notice and receiving information from the student's parent or guardian, the superintendent or the superintendent's designee may continue the student's placement in the alternative education program if there is reason to believe that the presence of the student in the regular classroom threatens the safety of other students or teachers. (i) The student or the student's parent or guardian may appeal the superintendent's decision under Subsection (h) to the board of trustees. The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the appeal. The board shall, at the next scheduled meeting, review the notice provided under Article 15.27(g), Code of Criminal Procedure, and receive information from the student, the student's parent or guardian, and the superintendent or superintendent's designee and confirm or reverse the decision under Subsection (h). The board shall make a record of the proceedings. If the board confirms the decision of the superintendent or superintendent's designee, the board shall inform the student and the student's parent or guardian of the right to appeal to the commissioner under Subsection (j). (j) Notwithstanding Section 7.057(e), the decision of the board of trustees under Subsection (i) may be appealed to the commissioner as provided by Sections 7.057(b), (c), (d), and (f). The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the appeal. Here are the grounds for removal to alternative Ed: (a) Except as provided by Section 37.007(a)(3) or (b), a student shall be removed from class and placed in an alternative education program as provided by Section 37.008 if the student commits the following on or within 300 feet of school property, as measured from any point on the school's real property boundary line, or while attending a school-sponsored or school-related activity on or off of school property: (1) engages in conduct punishable as a felony; (2) engages in conduct that contains the elements of the offense of assault under Section 22.01(a)(1), Penal Code, or terroristic threat under Section 22.07, Penal Code; (3) sells, gives, or delivers to another person or possesses or uses or is under the influence of: (A) marihuana or a controlled substance, as defined by Chapter 481, Health and Safety Code, or by 21 U.S.C. Section 801 et seq.; or (B) a dangerous drug, as defined by Chapter 483, Health and Safety Code; (4) sells, gives, or delivers to another person an alcoholic beverage, as defined by Section 1.04, Alcoholic Beverage Code, commits a serious act or offense while under the influence of alcohol, or possesses, uses, or is under the influence of an alcoholic beverage; (5) engages in conduct that contains the elements of an offense relating to abusable glue or aerosol paint under Sections 485.031 through 485.035, Health and Safety Code, or relating to volatile chemicals under Chapter 484, Health and Safety Code; or (6) engages in conduct that contains the elements of the offense of public lewdness under Section 21.07, Penal Code, or indecent exposure under Section 21.08, Penal Code. (b) Except as provided by Section 37.007(d), a student shall be removed from class and placed in an alternative education program under Section 37.008 if the student engages in conduct that contains the elements of the offense of retaliation under Section 36.06, Penal Code, against any school employee. (c) In addition to Subsection (a), a student shall be removed from class and placed in an alternative education program under Section 37.008 based on conduct occurring off campus and while the student is not in attendance at a school-sponsored or school-related activity if: (1) the student receives deferred prosecution under Section 53.03, Family Code, for conduct defined as a felony offense in Title 5, Penal Code; (2) a court or jury finds that the student has engaged in delinquent conduct under Section 54.03, Family Code, for conduct defined as a felony offense in Title 5, Penal Code; or (3) the superintendent or the superintendent's designee has a reasonable belief that the student has engaged in a conduct defined as a felony offense in Title 5, Penal Code. (d) In addition to Subsection (a), a student may be removed from class and placed in an alternative education program under Section 37.008 based on conduct occurring off campus and while the student is not in attendance at a school-sponsored or school-related activity if: (1) the superintendent or the superintendent's designee has a reasonable belief that the student has engaged in conduct defined as a felony offense other than those defined in Title 5, Penal Code; and (2) the continued presence of the student in the regular classroom threatens the safety of other students or teachers or will be detrimental to the educational process. (h) On receipt of notice under Article 15.27(g), Code of Criminal Procedure, the superintendent or the superintendent's designee shall review the student's placement in the alternative education program. The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the review. The superintendent or the superintendent's designee shall schedule a review of the student's placement with the student's parent or guardian not later than the third class day after the superintendent or superintendent's designee receives notice from the office or official designated by the court. After reviewing the notice and receiving information from the student's parent or guardian, the superintendent or the superintendent's designee may continue the student's placement in the alternative education program if there is reason to believe that the presence of the student in the regular classroom threatens the safety of other students or teachers. (i) The student or the student's parent or guardian may appeal the superintendent's decision under Subsection (h) to the board of trustees. The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the appeal. The board shall, at the next scheduled meeting, review the notice provided under Article 15.27(g), Code of Criminal Procedure, and receive information from the student, the student's parent or guardian, and the superintendent or superintendent's designee and confirm or reverse the decision under Subsection (h). The board shall make a record of the proceedings. If the board confirms the decision of the superintendent or superintendent's designee, the board shall inform the student and the student's parent or guardian of the right to appeal to the commissioner under Subsection (j). (j) Notwithstanding Section 7.057(e), the decision of the board of trustees under Subsection (i) may be appealed to the commissioner as provided by Sections 7.057(b), (c), (d), and (f). The student may not be returned to the regular classroom pending the appeal.
Please tell me you have not bought into the great lie of the media. Kids are not going out a blowing each other away every day. It is a rare occurrence. You play it as if more shootings are happening all the time. The truth is there aren't as many. We only care because they are happening in suburban schools and didn't stay in the inner cities like they were supposed to.
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
It spells the end of
1) bullies
2) the scandalously mismanaged public education system
3) government funded mind control
hope this helps
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
probably a bit tough, even everything i have been doing these days is "post-columbine".
100% Pure Evil With The Look And Feel Of Wholesome Goodness
Breif: It is not the schools job to babysit.
/. article was Incorrect. He could have done worse, but what he SHOULD have done is
Long:
If I, as a student, call another Gay Student 'Gay', I am not breaking any rules.
If I however, cause physcial harm to that student, then I AM breaking the rules (and should be punished accordingly).
What this particalar person did in the ASK
1) Not pretended he has a weapon. (this is WAY bad.. if you rob a bank Pretending you have a gun, you can still get Armed-Robbery. How many stories do we hear about Cops shooting people becuase they had authentic-appearing firearms?)
2) Not present pretense that had it been a weapon, they would be dead.
A better solution would have been to, after the first bully mentioned 'Gun' (the 8th dirty word apperently), call that person on it. Bring it up to the school figure heads that the 'bully' was talking about having a 'Gun'.
(Essentially reverse the situtation).
Some of the better things my folks taught me was that Bully will get bored with you if you just dont react to them.
Also, the kid in question, if he can prove it, file Theft charges against this band of ruffians for loss of property (Diskettes, and the 'Breaking' into his backpack).
This wouldnt happen if we had CAPITOL punishment in schools. -UD
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
They should. They can then be prepared for those situations when they are adults. Children don't need to be introverted and shut off in the ivory towers of the home. They DO need social interaction.
Why to people assume that we should ship our kids off to be in a large mixed group, when in our adult lives we choose nice small comfortable groups?
Correction: We prefer to choose nice small comfortable groups. In reality, we have to deal with all sorts of people and situations that we'd rather not choose to every day.
Home schooling is not for every family nor every child. We have home schooled our 3 kids for 6 years. We have no compelling religious nor political reasons, we just thought it was the right thing to do. Time will tell, but it sure looks and feels good now. Our kids attend lots of free lectures at universities, museums, and interest groups. The librarians know them by name. We use the Saxon math system. Resources abound for those who seek them.
maybe sean's dad should post the name and snail mail address of the school officials (no, not their home addresses) and start a letter-writing campaign.
five hundred politely-worded letters would hopefully cause them to at least consider their errors.
also, as in any case, find a friendly local reporter who is willing to listen to your story and write up a blurb on it, or go on the air.
schools hate bad press.
Paul
RE: Expulsion of Sean Sheeley
I am a Texas resident, and have worked within several independent school districts. It has come to my attention via an article on Slashdot (www.slashdot.org) that your district has removed a student named Sean Sheeley from his high school and relegated him to "alternative education". From the report, I have also come to understand that Mr. Sheeley has been constantly harassed by his fellow students, both verbally and physically, for many years. The harassment has gone beyond idle playground threats, and Mr. Sheeley has been mocked, physically harassed, and his personal property violated and even stolen.
I find your action reprehensible. For a student with no prior record of violence or any other kind of misbehavior, your "knee-jerk" reaction in light of recent school violence is a sick display of over-anxious administrators who have no clue about how to solve the social issues surrounding these and other events. You are doing your best, it seems, to *appear* to have a handle on things, when all you are doing is helping to breed a new generation of social misfits who either try to conform with the current "norm" or follow blindly, never resisting lest they be labeled a "dissenter" and cast into a pathetic form of social prison called "alternative education".
What was done to the students who harassed Mr. Sheeley? Has any action been taken against them? Why have you deemed one inappropriate remark from a good student to be so offensive that you felt it was worse than the years of harassment from the other students? Why does it seem that if Mr. Sheeley had lashed out in physical and verbal violence against his attackers, he would have received a slap on the wrist compared to what you have done for his off-hand remark? Why have you not taken this opportunity to counsel Mr. Sheeley and try to correct his actions civilly?
You are punishing the wrong students. You are throwing out the cream of the crop in order to preserve a multitude of socially spoiled goods, who know nothing more than how to bully and mock those who they can't understand. I would truly like to hear how you can defend yourself against these accusations. Until then, I hope that more people hear about your actions, and put *you* on trial. For your sake, I hope you'll be given a greater chance to defend yourself than you have awarded Mr. Sheeley.
--My Name
My Town, Texas
(PS to Slashdot: I used the email addresses I found in the responses in this forum: danthony@mckinneyisd.net, tlmoore@mckinneyisd.net, dmuizers@mckinneyisd.net)
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
Thats a programmed defined data cap, not a limitation of the language. Check out cgi-lib.pl if you don't believe me.
er, programmer defined.
The ACLU has been demanding "due process" rights for students for years. They claimed (perhaps correctly) that discipline was unjustly administered, eg, principals expelled some students who fought & let others escape any punishment. Schools have responded by removing all discretion from principals and instituting "no-exception" policies. Now, you may not agree with a particular policy, but you can't complain about a lack of "due process".
Don't misunderstand me--I'm not suggesting this is the case with Sean. It's more the fact that the bullying went on because the faculty didn't care and the bullies knew that there would be no reprecussions for picking on the kid. So they take a popular hot-button issue and use it as a weapon against Sean, knowing that it's one area where the faculty will show dictatorial discipline.
I'm just ranting here, so I apologize if this isn't as coherent as it could be. Basically what I'm saying is that, perhaps if there was an educational system that the parents and students could actually respect, that there would be a greater respect for the school's authority. Of course, that requires the schools to act in a fair and logical manner, and I don't see that happening anytime soon...
Do we see these kinds of problems in Catholic schools? I'm sure that some degree of normal bullying takes place, but it's always been my understanding that discipline has always been pretty heavy and consistent.
As for home school, that's a tough one. I was home schooled for a couple of years (3rd grade through 5th grade). It worked out well for me because I've always learned extremely well on my own, when I'm not being bothered or having to wait for everyone else. What happened was that my younger brother was given a lot more attention, so I was left in the "school room" (a converted extra bedroom) alone for eight hours a day to do my work, which I would show to my mom at the end of the day. However, this was not, in my opinion, a healthy thing for me socially, and it took me until college to form some sort of decent interpersonal skills. It can work if the parents are very well educated, if one parent stays home and is dedicated to teaching the kids, and if they keep their kids involved in enough outside activities so that they get plenty of interaction and socialization. Otherwise, I think it can be dangerous... I've seen good and bad come from other home schooled kids I knew, and the ones that came out with problems were pretty scary.
Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
Ok, first, let me say I'm a father and I was also in the position that Sean was in as a kid. It got so bad, that I would tank tests and homework assignments so that I wouldn't blow the curve for the rest of the class(Not a suggested solution BTW. That tends to create it's own lovely brand of psychological baggage.)
I stuck through H.S., got my lumps, and went to college. College was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was finally around people, who, for the most part, were there because they wanted to learn, not because the law said they had to be there. Those that wanted to drink and party and belittle the educational environment didn't last long. My only reget is that I didn't start college sooner.
Fast forward a few years. I had a co-worker with a son that was having similar problems. She wanted to be sure that her son was not in a bad situation. I had met the boy a few times and he seemed unnaturally reserved, almost depressed (IANAPsyc). I told her about my experiences with H.S. and college and suggested she send her son to the local Junior College that fall. She did, he has, and now he is happy. I understand he is getting decent grades, so his lack of two years of H.S. have not slowed him down.
My point in all this is that this @$%$#^ school may have done your son a favor. Get him out of the bad situation and get him into one that has a chance to be positive. Most colleges will take a student on some kind of probational status even if they have no deploma, or try for a GED. Nobody cares if you don't have a H.S. diploma if you have a B.S or a B.A. in some field. Or, if your son is talented with something that is marketable now, have him get a job if he wants. One of the best IT folks I've had the pleasure to work with is currently 18 years old and never went to H.S.
Another thing you need to do is make your son part of the solution. I don't know you, so this may be obvious to you, so no insult intended. After my sophmore year, my parents asked me if I really wanted to finish H.S. If not, then I could start college that fall. I decided to continue with H.S. I've regretted that decision, but it was my decision, or at least one in which I had some input.
Best of luck to you.
Sig? What sig? Do I have to have a sig!?!?
The school will attempt to throw you out, before you subvert too many young minds. Have reporters on stand-by when this happens, and have them ask the school-admin that attempts to kick you out, "what is the issue here?"
School-admins *hate* this. They do not want to be seen in a bad light on any media.
Your child cannot have his rights recognized because school administrators are even worse bullies than what he originally faced. You, as an adult, have the moral means and cojones to face another adult, and should the school admins not be ready to deal with the situation, then bring the situation up in the open, so that their bosses will have to face the music as well.
I was constantly bullied in high-school, and the stress I felt then was thousands of times higher than what I have felt in the business world. Your child must understand that he is not alone and millions of us understand him, and wish him well. What he is living right now is the worst part of his life, it's all better from here on.
Patrick Naubert
It used to be if you shot yourself in the foot or cut off your finger with a lawnmower it was written up to you being dumb as bricks and left at that. People looked at the example and tried not to emulate it. Then a lawyer was born and that lawyer said "I can make money with this." and started suing the hell out of companies that made the products that people hurt themselves with.
This wasn't too bad to start because some things were maybe unsafe and so people let it go and companies made things safer and paid for thier "mistakes". Thats where things start going bad. More and more people found ways to blame others for the dumb shit they were doing. Unfortunately this also lead to dumber people who were armed with the saying, "Its not my fault."
Also around this time people decided that discipline was bad because there were a few bad (well maybe alot of bad) parents. The system started turning kids against thier parents (god I have too much personal experience with that crap) and basically took away the right to really teach your kids about morals and all that stuff. That caused parents to ask the schools to start teaching morals. Soon this lead to people who expected that schools were supposed to teach morals to children.
Basically what all this stuff (which unfortunately I did not articulate well at all) lead to in the end was a world where parents neither can, nor want to teach kids to be disciplined, a world where nothing is the fault of the person that did it and hell be damned if the person that does something gets disciplined, a world where bullies can bully because they are "disturbed" but serious and normal people get thrown on the streets because they are "trouble".
I remember in school when I was bullied terribly (all the way from about 2nd grade clear to 6th grade) and the principal told me in 4th grade to stand up for myself. He said what you need to do is just let loose on one of those people bugging you to show that you aren't a victim and he will leave you alone. So the next time someone bothered me I punched him in the nose 2 or 3 times. Want to know something? That didn't teach me that violence was the answer, it just taught me that you have to not let yourself get pushed around. It only worked because my parents had instilled into me at a VERY early age that fighting was wrong. (I got whupped in the ass so many times for beating up my lil bro) I only had to fight 1 other time in my life, and thats when a little shrimpy punk at school pulled a knife on me (or a letter opener, I didn't really look at it, you rather freak when sharp objects are placed against your neck) and I basically just grabbed the arm that he was holding the knife with and held it away from me until a teacher came to see what was up and the dude was dealt with.
I think what this world needs is movement back to consequences for actions. I mean real actions that deserve consequences not the crap they do now with there over reacctions to nothing. Parents need to discipline thier kids and teach them manners and all crap like that. People need to get respect for others and others property. Schools need to be about teaching numbers and letters and not about teaching morals and sex and whatever else they are being asked to do right now.
I think the biggest thing that has to happen (but never will because too many people have nothing but grey mush in thier head) is that people need to take responsiblity for themselves. DO NOT RELY ON THE GOVT.
As you can see I am truely worried about the future of our country. Unless people decide to discipline themselves, teach thier kids, do thier own work, and take care of thier own things we are lost.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
As Diana also pointed out, we may not have all the facts of the case.
I'm willing to accept that she can't comment on the issue to us, since we're not taxpayers in that school district, and I'm also willing to accept that there may be more parameters governing the school administration's observed behavior - more paramters than the ones we see.
I tried to phrase my questions with these two possibilities in mind, and honestly didn't expect any sort of response at all. The fact that Diana was willing to engage in a personal dialog with me at all was surprising.
But my intent with the questions was to increase the probability of certain thoughts occurring to the school administration.
I didn't expect an answer, but I hope that they are at least thinking about documented ethics, proactive remedies, &c.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
What's your point? Are you a taxpayer in that district? Do you have children in those schools? I think it's perfectly reasonable for entities to have a basic policy of not discussing internal policy decisions with outsiders.
So far we've only heard what the father has chosen to say. He may be giving bad or incomplete information either on purpose or by accident.
The administration may have more facts at their disposal, but probably will discuss the case only with insiders - i.e., memebers of their own community. In effect, they're saying "you don't know the whole story, and anyway it's none of your business."
In any case, this has blown up so fast that the people with the authority to change their policy haven't had time to do so - or even fully consider the implications of doing so. The administrator responsible for answering questions has no choice but to follow the current policy. I imagine interested parents in that district are being given all the information they desire.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
No, his experience shows a society which exists with a pack-mentality, in which the weak or the individual gets eaten by the Group - we have to realise that though we know that "You don't have to fuck people over to survive", that doesn't mean we don't fuck the little people over anyways.
This phenomena isn't unique to the Educational System, nor is it unique to the present age or to the US.
What do we do to stop this trend in schools? What do we do to stop this trend in society? What do we do to stop this trend in humanity?
-f
-f
www.blackant.net
The parent post makes a good point. We don't have all of the information yet. Ask almost anyone who has a sibling and they will tell you that kids are very likely to bend the truth if they think it will benefit them. I'm not saying none of it happened, but all we have for evidence is the father of this student. Could the kid have fudged the truth a little? Yes. Did he? Who knows.
I spent years, like a lot of us, being bullied, pushed around, beaten up. This was in a relatively normal country state school in england. I was always made out to be the one in the wrong. I remembe rgetting my hand stamped on repeatedly as people wanted to see me cry and the response. I was sent to the heads office due to being disruptive. It would be interesting in these cases if the family could actually mount a case against the school authorities for not protecting their son from protracted bullying, citing what he said as a result of mental trauma.... I can't believe an authority can have an unconstitutional right to exclude a pupil for the simple crime of trying to cope with harassment....
Working for the (other) man
Is it just me, or is nearly everyone missing the fact that the bullies started the gun thing?
Oracle and unix guy.
Home schoolers tend to fall into one of two groups:
/. folk to be generally part of the first group, so good luck to you. Just watch out for the second group, now that anyone and his brother has a web-community. There's some real crap out there.
Highly educated parents, often teachers, who tend to skew the sample because they get good results. It is very similar to having a very well funded private school.
Very religious parents, often not so educated, who wish to socially isolate themselves from the norm.
Guess which group doesn't put out a very good product.
A third, much smaller group (in the US) is religious groups with a tradition of education and study (usually very conservative Jewish groups). They also have a good success rate, although ocassionally wind up way off in left field, self-justifying financial fraud and what-all.
I would expect
Oracle and unix guy.
Jeet Kun Doe
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Ever need an online dictionary?
On a more serious note, school is important for learning how to deal with other people. Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people.
-- My comment is above.
Sounds like he's already followed what my advice would have been. I think it's a Bad Idea to routinely institutionalize children - there are a number of ways in which it harms them. Alas, it's extremely popular in our country and it's almost heresy not to think that universal compulsory public education is a panacæa.
Keep up the home schooling, and maybe consider coöp-ing with some other parents to increase the variety of learning methods and perspectives (and to rescue a few more kids from the pit).
---
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
The answer to that question should point you to the answer of the real question: why? The school officials aren't stupid, they aren't being ignorant, they are being smart. They, like everyone else, realize that Sean is not a threat by any standard. The problem here is not a problem of common sense. It is not a problem of logic. It is a problem of liability. Look at the past school shootings. Every single one of them go like this: "A student today shot four students dead. His friend's dad heard the kid mention it 8 years ago and let it slip by. The people at the school and the parents should learn not to let these warning signs slip by."
The blame goes to the schools, the parents and other students - more than the kid himself.
The schools then have no choice but to get rid of the kids. They will look irresponsible if they don't. It seems to me that this vast liability is just a black hole - not even common sense can escape.
Another thing I can't understand: Why do they suspend kids for doing such insignificant things when, after a school shooting happens, they never look back at the whole thing and say: "The student even pointed a fish stick at his teacher and said 'bang'"? They always say things that most would consider a problem. What is wrong with these stupid schools?
I agree with Baz Luhrmann when he said "the real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind - the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday" People are looking for problems where they aren't any and are still missing the real ones.
/whois John Galt
Today is the closing of a parenthesis opened before this sig, before this story, before this existence that is me (as if
I don't think Sean was withdrawn from society. He was pretty much forced out. I mean, what was their alternative to public school? A school for learning and behavior problems? This is a smart kid unchallenged by normal school. The alternative in not much of an alternative.
Sounds like they don't want to withdraw him from society. The father is seeking a way to get him back into the mainstream short of moving out of state or something like that.
Although, I must agree that I don't expect much help coming from Slashdot.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Oh boy... I thought you were onto something until you slipped this little gem in. Can't you people have an opinion without resorting to preaching? Jesus!... errr I mean gosh darn!
Not to get into a religious debate, but isn't it funny how as soon as our current local authority is shown to be corrupt, we automatically look to a higher one? It is my experience that the corruption doesn't stop. Any "authority" is going to be corrupt or otherwise imperfect. Stop looking for authority and accountability, and you will be free. IMO, one is only accountable to him/herself. In the end. The bullies and ignorant school board will get reap what they sew. Regardless of any higher authority.
In this sense, I feel it is important to stay in this "less than ideal" environment until one learns to deal with it productively. Withdrawing is no solution. It doesn't take long to see how the ignorant and violent are only hurting themselves. This was my lesson in school. I was bullied, but I stuck it out. Although, it was nice to have the option to move to a not quite so abusive school...
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
If I read the response right, he can't even comment on whether the school does or does not have a policy banning, discouraging, tolerating or encouraging bullying and harrassment of other students.
Normaly they have multivolume tomes of rules, regulations, and policies, however if they weren't enforcing an anti-harrassment policy and they have one, they might be in trouble.
Fine, they cannot comment on the specific case, but are they totally deaf, dumb, and blind to the bullying and harrassment so a thousand acts of those kind are ignored and one sarcastic response gets you expelled?
Absolutely Sean's dad should walk away and deny the public school system the money it gets from the state and fedgov for having his child as a student. Suing will be a waste of time and money, and will cause more stress and aggravation than it's worth. And for what - to put his child back into the same environment where he's bullied? Moreover, Sean's father should encourage the parents of his child's friends, who are probably also geeks getting picked on, to take their kids out of the public school system as well. If there's no local support group or resources available for home schooling, they can start their own.
An armed society is a polite society - Heinlein
Dealing with people is a pretty important social skill. I'm not saying that the bullies had perfect manners, but you have to work with all sorts of people during life. Unpleasant as it is, you'll have people who treat you like dirt as well as those who sing your praises. I had some junk tossed at me during high school too (although, not to this extent).
I met several home-schooled during high school, none of whom chose to stay at the school I attended (they were not threatened in any way, but they couldn't deal with being with other students). I'm currently in college, and in this area, there's an association for home-schooled kids, which schedules monthly group outings. Might be something to look into.
Even if Sean decides to keep home-schooling, I would also recommend that the father keep this issue going. If it's dropped, it'll be forgotten, and the same situation will happen to someone else (this is in no way a unique situation). Go to PTA meetings and bring up discipline issues. Spread the story around. Publicity is a big advocate.
Try to look at things from the school's perspective though. Especially after Columbine (and the other more recent shootings), it's hard for a school to be too careful. If some kid is pretending to load a gun in front of people he doesn't like, I'd be awfully concerned too.
I know someone who was suspended for bringing a (metal) butter knife in her lunch bag at a school that had a zero-tolerance policy for knives and other weapons.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein
And I'd like to see other people around here write as well as Jon routinly does.
Ah....but who will Moderate the Meta Moderators?
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/images/award.gif .*shrc is
They should give the award givers an award for POS design regarding the choice of colors...
--
$HOME is where the
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
Call the school and let them know what you think...
He would offer to kick anybody's (teacher, principle, kid, parent) ass. That was the best thing about my dad's problem resolution skills.
This motivated me to solve my problems by using the school systems large bureaucratic rule book to roll over any little shit that tauted me too much. (Teasing is teasing. If the situation grows to regular stealing and poking, it is time for someone to go down.) Since I was normally a good kid, I would just get both the punk and myself in trouble. The twit usually had more offenses than me. He got more punishment and learned not to do anything that could get him into trouble.
It makes me want to say BOOYA! just thinking about this.
We've been rounding up our children and sending them to government schools as a society for about 200 years. Is this a good thing? I don't think so. Why is socializing children with other children superior? Why not socialize them with multiple generations? The social dynamic in a typical High School is not normal. Not even close. Home schooling by responsible parents can be a superior alternative. I have met many of these kids, and am constantanly amazed at the level of maturity and knowlege they have attained.
In a very annoyed voice, she said, "Well, I guess you can call the central office at 469-742-4000."
Hmmm...shall we all call the school district as well?
I don't mean to offend, but you bring up to mind another point, and that is that a lot of these kids suffer from low self-esteem. Now, I don't know about you, but when somebody told me I had low self esteem, I'd punch 'em in the nose, because I didn't want to hear that kind of [stuff]. I suppose, then, the final question is that of "Do these kids need psychological support", and "What kind"?
I think the answer is "yes, they do, but not sit-on-the-couch kind of psycological help". These kids need friends, and that isn't going to happen unless they are put in an environment where they can make friends. Even "Malcom in the Middle" made friends in his "Smart Kids" class.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
seriously, though, when I was young, there were programs for gifted kids, (Enhance the Chance, SLUFFY, et alia) that took them out of the rigamarole of everyday 'skool' and gave them an opportunity to learn more interesting things. (Where do you think I learned the word "rigamarole"?) Whatever happened to these programs? If they still exist, why are they not effective? Should programs like this exist in the first place?
I say they should. Programs like this provide an intellectual gift to those kids who are unable to express themselves through, as my father says, "fo'ball", or such. Poindexters need lovin' care, too.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
Stealing the kids discs and bullying him is bad, but the staff of the school have the responsibility to stop that. A parent who goes in is simply going to make the situation a million times worse for his or her kids. Their bullying will increase tenfold, and the more their parents come in, the worse it will be.
The staff are the ones at fault, they should have stopped this long before. A parent should be AWARE of it, and maybe have an informal meeting with staff to make sure they are aware of it, but please, charging with assult for being kids and rowdy is insane. Kids who bully get put into detentions. They will learn after a while, or they get kicked out. If we are talking about breaking arms and lifetime scarring fair enough, thats serious assult, but legal action for pushing someone over in the classroom or kicking them in the shins is the reason that there are more lawyers in the average american city than in the average european country. Its insane.
Kids cant be sheltered for life, they need to learn how to handle themselves. The kids reaction, while maybe ill-thought-out probably had the desired effect, it made the bullies laugh and then probably leave him alone. That in my mind is creative and intelligent thinking that should be praised. He used his mental skills to get out of a tough physical situation. Good for him!
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
Hey, what the hell ever happened to darwanism? I say that all the smart kids should bomb their fucking schools and eliminate all of the idiot morons who go around banging their heads against the wall for fun.
!DOWN WITH THE IDIOTS!
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Simple solution:
If you get bullied, go to the principal, and say that the bully said that he was going to shoot him. Now the bully gets suspended or sent to an "alternative school".
(That might be illegal if false - but many bullies do say "I am going to kill you" - and reporting that truthfully would be legal)
Speaking of "alternative schools", I know of at least one which is more like a prison - students are given no time between classes, are prohibited from extracurricular activities, etc.
I wonder if the one he was going to be sent to would be like that. Either way, it sucks to be sent to a school for "learning and other problems". Very likely that the education would be at a lower level, and with the onerous restrictions I mentioned above. And/or full of crime (real crime, such as severe beatings, stabbings and shootings). Very unlikely that he would escape from all of that...
We should ONLY allow a COURT OF LAW to expel or sentence a kid to "alternative" "education".
That is way too much of a restriction on the child and his right to an education for a school administrator to make. They need due process of law.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Remember who's doing the teaching here. Like I mentioned earlier, given that teachers are notoriusly underpaid, not many are going to risk their physical tush to intervene in such an incident. Even in the most optimistic case, not every teacher can get over the fear of a physical confrontation. Granted most of this can be stopped by verbal commands in the case that the students respect the system. Even so, put yourself in the shoes of a female teacher trying to break up a situation involving several larger male teenagers. Or, put yourself in the shoes of the average out of shape middle aged male teacher. There's a significant intimidation factor here. Add to that the fact that teachers aren't roaming the halls in between classes. Now add to the fact that people tend look unfavorably to non conformists, and it's no suprise that teachers aren't intervening. Not to mention that teachers are trying to pay attention a dozen things all at once.
Even though I am sympathetic to teachers in this regard, I still have to think that there's more they can do. Even if they can't break up a fight, a teacher can call security, take names, and administer other discipline. I am more than a little critical of teachers who don't have the courage to stop such incidents. Especially in nice suburban schools. They're dealing with kids who may be more aggressive, but who as a whole don't really know how to fight. You might get clocked if you step in, but I guarantee these kids are gonna stop once they who they hit. Given the example some of my teachers set by intervening in full fledged gang fights, most teachers are just wimping out just because it's easier.
I can see myself being Sean's position. The _last_ thing I wanted to do was get my parents involved in anything!
The best thing I did for myself in High School was standing up for myself. I was slapped, had things stolen, got pushed around (for a while), and every other horror you can imagine.
What I finally did to curtail this was to fight back, but not in a physical way. You have to be smart about it. Befreind teachers and do things in there sight. That way things can't escalate too much. By my 2nd year in high school I was able to call jocks morons in plain sight of teachers and have them tell the bully off. It was pretty nice. Also taking objects of said bully and throwing them somewhere across the classroom descretely can be a good way to get them off your back and have the teacher tell said bully to settle down.
Play it smart and the harrassment will be lessoned. Don't blame the father for this, how could he have known if nothing was said?
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
From what I've seen of kids that are home schooled, you're often right, particularly if the parents are homeschooling due to religious convictions, rather than due to academic ones. However, I have also seen perfectly normal (socially speaking) kids come out of homeschooling. The trick to it seems to be activities other than academic ones.
My wife and I plan to home school our children. However, we also plan to take the kids to martial arts classes, dance, gymnastics, music, kids sports, etc. The general key to raising not just an intelligent kid but a sociable one seems to be making sure that if they're not getting socialization lessons at school, they get them elsewhere. Hopefully, this theory proves true. I have a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting it, based on conversations I've had with kids who were home schooled this way, as well as parents who are currently doing so.
"This is your world. These are your people. You can live for yourself today, or help build tomorrow for everyone."
Sheesh! Irrespective of the degree of harassment kids experience at school, it's quite sad to constantly read about Jon Katz's apologetic article of the perpertators. Hello, life is not a big Doom game... These idiots who act out either by promoting this notion of violence are in serious need of councelling! Jon, get a clue... it time to forgive all the bit*h slaps you recieved in high school and get on with your life.
I live in a small town in NE Pennsylvania. Every week I see at least on article in the local newspaper were a high school kid gets in trouble for threatening someone. In Bradford county Pa. The norm is to call the police and have the kid arrested! Just today the local paper has a new one:
http://www.thedailyreview.com/data/news2/When is it going to end? It is getting way out of hand.
I am a college freshman studying political science at my local Community College and am involved in local politics and was just elected as my school's student body president. I also knew one of the people that was killed a few months ago in the first shooting in San Deago, CA, so I understand both sides of the story. But I think we should teach our children the value and importance of due proccess and free speach. That is a bit about me just so you all know.
If you have any ideas you can e-mail me or just post under this and I will read it. Hopefully we can get some protection for our kid, friends, or ourselves.
-Grant
|grant.henninger.name|
Do you also believe that a woman deserves to get raped because she wore a miniskirt thus should just suck it up and deal with it because "that's the way it is" ?
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, justifies what these kids go through. I don't care of they're every damn "minority" group in the world combined, that is no excuse for physical and mental abuse.
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
The adoption of "zero-tolerance" speech policies (which I personally consider to be in violation of the first amendment) is taking its toll on otherwise good kids.
It used to be that a student who made a stupidly inappropriate remark was actually taught a lesson: what you said was wrong, this is why it was wrong, if you say it again you will be punished by X. With the dawning of the era which gave us the horriffic phrase "school shooting", administrations around the country have been under tremendous pressure to do something. "Take away all their rights, they're just kids, but keep my little Johnny Racist-Bigmouth safe from 'school shootings.'"
So, as more "normal" kids who screw up once are pulled from the schools, and as the complaints pile on from their suffering families, administrators might begin to see that they've been a bit heavy-handed. Perhaps point out that if your kid had simply gone off and slugged the other kid, he'd have gotten a five-day suspension for fighting. But verbally returning a threat in an already hostile situation makes him a potentinal murderer who must be expelled? Point out the inequity in their policies. Have them point out where in your school's policy it says "threatening language == expelled." Get in their faces, and don't give up. It shouldn't take a lawyer, (which simply turns off the ordinary people who make up your school board) but an outraged parent can actually make a difference.
Your first step in approaching your school board is to educate yourself on their written policies. Find out what their justification was for expulsion. Then, at the meeting, step one would be to sympathise with their position of trying to keep school safe. Next, demonstrate what you've personally done to teach Sean that murderous threats are not appropriate responses. (Perhaps have Sean demonstrate proof of completion of an "anger management course") Finally, attack the inequity of their policies. Point out that they're promoting physically violent solutions over verbal responses. Hopefully, you can get him reinstated after the next meeting.
John
John
Back in 1950 or so, my dad brought his shotgun to school. He rode to school with it across the handlebars of his bicycle. He put it in his locker for his first few classes. Then, while other students innocently entered an assembly, he walked out to his locker, got the shotgun and walked into the room where his classmates were waiting. Suddenly, without any warning to his fellow students, he strolled up to the front of the room with his gun and proceed to give a 20 minute presentation about how a shotgun worked.
I didn't say that, did I :-)
Though the idea of increasing protectiveness does explain a lot -- what you're basically saying is the tighter you close your hand, the more star systems will slip through your fingers (ha ha).
Does make sense if you think about it -- the Internet has created a culture of radical uncensorability that is in the process of destroying traditional concepts of copyright. The children of today have now had fairly general access to the net for five or six years and have discovered their own personal identities far earlier than their parents ever have.
I think this actually bodes well -- it will mean intellectual chaos in the short run, but in the long run it would appear to create a much more mature world. Things will settle down eventually, of course, but a lot of interesting stuff will come out of the ride -- seems we're already seeing the beginnings of a second sexual revolution (with people thinking with their heads instead of just their genitals this time around); who knows what will be next?
/Brian
I do not consider humanism per se to be a religion (though it has been interpreted as such); after all, "God helps those who help themselves" is as baldly humanistic a statement as you can find but it still comes from a religious background (though probably not the one you think; I believe it came from Aesop).
/Brian
Hit the send button too quickly, I fear -- I had some other comments.
The ICR is not a reliable source for scientific information. They have a reputation for intellectual dishonesty and don't even have a terribly clear definition of "creation science". No scientist takes them seriously for those reasons. (Lying for God would be the term I'd use, though "calling God a liar" is probably more accurate...)
"Faith in evolution" strikes me as being something of a tautology anyway -- faith in it to do what, keep doing what it's doing? Go look up the bit about the moths in Northern England and how their color changed with the rise of the Industrial Revolution. That's evolution, not some "march of progress" that you and yours claim that we believe it is. That's *observed* evolution. Proof enough, unless you believe in Last Tuesdayism.
/Brian
I don't really understand the way discipline works in schools today...
You ask most teachers, and I say it all the time -- the kids in middle school and high school today are one of the hardest-working, focused, and caring generations in anyone's memory. And they manage to accomplish this under one of the most paranoid, demanding climates that anyone has had to face -- I've often said that I'd love to go back to college but I would never go to high school in 2001.
I understand security. But to expel someone from school for a joke or possession of aspirin with intent to relieve pain, or to have someone arrested for something found out third hand... that's ridiculous.
I sometimes wonder how teenagers these days will grow up. With all that they can do, they have the potential to change the world the way their Baby Boomer parents couldn't; we GenXers tried to do it, but as much as we tried the Boomers called us slackers and have so far not really taken us seriously. But with the atmosphere they're put in, I'm afraid they might just get beaten down and sucked into the system... just like their parents. And that would be a tragedy.
/Brian
Some quick web searchs produced the following:m l
Which may be a good starting point.
http://www.dpi.state.wi.us/dpi/dlsis/onlinevir.ht
Search terms: virtual schools, home schooling
I can't really help myself, so here it comes: My 2 cents about preventing Columbine things from happening again.
Interviewer: " So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?" ....we will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm."
General Reinwald: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."
Interviewer: "Shooting! that's a bit irresponsible isn't it?"
General Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range."
Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"
General Reinwald: "I don't see how,
Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
General Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
It's not mine, mind you... However I don't know the real author.
To boldly invent more hot water.
Now go get 'em...
--
Now it seems to me that this kid was greatly wronged. But my experience with child-parent interaction makes me wonder if he really was wronged as much as it seems. We don't know if he has had a history of violent behavior or anything like that. When you only have one side of a story, especially one like this, take it with a grain of salt.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Actually, though, who's to say the father even knew, up until the point Sean got suspended. When I was a kid in school (Not that long ago), I told my parents as little about what happened at school as possible. If I did tell them something they used that as a crack and asked me about it every day, no matter if it was a one-time thing or what. To avoid the situation, I just didn't tell them anything. However, you can't really hide the fact that you've been suspended, and then removed, from school... I wonder if that's the point where Sean's dad found out about everything that was going on.
Amen. The 'socialization' that everyone talks about is easily defined: The process of turning children into socialists.
_______
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925
I agree.
_______
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925
Welcome to the country of free speech that law freaks have shaped out: only lawyers can speak. Honesty almost becomes a sin when you're aware that everybody's waiting to sue you. Sure boosts spontaneous communication...i.e. free speech. Bravo !
BullyOnline (British-based, but has some generally applicable stuff)
http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/
Safe Child Program -- Bullies
http://www.safechild.org/bullies.htm
IANAL, but maybe the Sheeleys and anyone else in a similiar situation will find the legal advice there useful.
You've missed the point completely. Whose life was really in danger in this and nearly every case of bullying?
Hint: it isn't the people doing the bullying.
Hint2: how many people were killed in Columbine/similar incidents and how many people kill themselves/get killed due to bullying? (The latter proportion is hugely more).
Hint3: Columbine was national news but suicide only makes local... at best. Its effect has thus been magnified beyond its true importance.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"What kind of idealistic bubble do you live in. Getting the parents together will only make it worse for Sean. At the meeting the bullies will promise not to pick on poor geeky Sean, they didn't mean anything, they were just having fun. Then after a few days everything will be back to normal and the bullying will continue as normal.
I disagree. If you consider first person shooter's as all there is to gaming today then you have a point. Unfortunately, it is an extremely large portion of the market. However, there are plenty of great games that support some degree of communication and intelligence - EverQuest, muds in general, and strategy games.
The incredibly popularity of FPSs does make me sad, though.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
I agree with the parent. I am a black belt, and I've never felt picked on. Sure, people try (maybe even more so once they discover that you are advanced in karate), but I save my fights for point-sparring with people I respect and love as brothers. Last, quick point: If you don't show any interest in your antagonist, he'll lose interest. The best defense is utter, uncompromising apathy.
This is a story about life in America's schools these days for people who are "different," who live at the mercy of jerks and cover-your-butt administrators.
I understand the problem and I feel sympathy for the father and the kid, but that last line was just too much for me. If we are going to put people in boxes and label them, we`re just as guilty as the taggers that put kids through their misery. Not knowing slashdot is not a crime, btw.
IMHO making a model out of the father and the kid of 'what essentially is wrong with the system' is A) not very empathically, let alone very intelligent in regard to the child and B) will not change anything. I know the father asked the question directly, but nonetheless the answers he will find here will be good theory but poor practice. The answer to all the social problems must be found in the attention parents/government and society devote to raising their kids, 10 or 20 years AGO. Our social economic model is becoming very child unfriendly and we have to make exceptions to laws in order to protect and sustain the natural growth and education process of our children. Any good programmer knows the raised red flag, signaling that the design of such a system is flawed. Slashdot can`t ever dream to fix that with a good tasty discussion.
If I were that father I would probably not have aired this so much, but I would also have tried to pull my son out of the system just like he did. My guess is that this kid will now be shielded from the terror inflicted on his psyche, and I`m afraid unless he learns to face and deal with his 'opponents' successfully, we won`t quickly recover from what`s happened to him. What he needs is something to excell in, and a bit of vocabulary and clues about how to cope with the pests.
If slashdot is all about free speech and free attitude, then the above statement is essentially wrong imho.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
[If this seems incoherent to you, I'm sorry, but I'm a bit pressed for time today. Hopefully it will make sense.]
I have to wonder if the school is really making things safer by kicking this kid out of school. If anything, such a reaction would only further anger an already unbalanced individual (I'm not saying the kid in this article is unbalanced; I'm speaking hypothetically here) and make him more likely to come to school and do something violent. I mean, unless the school checks IDs at the door, it wouldn't be too hard for a suspended student to get back into the school just once. At my high school (admittedly, it's been a few years since I've been there), he could just walk in with everyone else at the beginning of the day.
So after all this rambling, I guess my point is that this administrator's reaction seems more likely to add fuel to the fire than to quench the flames. All he has shown to this student is that the other kids at high school act inappropriately, but their actions are supported by the school administration. This seems backward to me.
McKinney Middle Schools
I'm seeing more and more that geeks are starting to get accepted in highschools lately. However, it appears that his school still has some jealous bullies.
My dad told me one time when I was young, that sometimes you need to stand up for yourself and fight back. If the guys hit you, you nail them hard and fast. It should only take one fight. Even if you loose, its easier to bully someone that won't fight back. Teaching the kid martial arts would also help. I only got into one fight when I was in early high school. I did win, and was never curtailed (to my face, at least).
I'm not saying violence is always the answer, but sometimes you have to get into one fight in your life to stand up for yourself. Now-a-days, physical fights rank under "saying" sometime that is controversial (like anything about guns, presently).
The father was probably right in home schooling him, because it sounds like he has an intelligence that surpases any "special" school (probably surpases most classes in his normal high school). But the kid needs to learn how to react in social environments, which home schooled kids tend to lack. Just keep this in mind.
Wow... lots of rants in that one...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
To take action, you first have to notice.
My parents wouldn't (didn't) know if I were suicidal. I told them she was raped the day after I found out, and I get "Well, you seemed a little emotional last night, but I didn't think it was anything that bad." These are the people who have been living with me for nineteen years.........
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Granted that the question is rhetorical, but at the same time, they are already perfectly willing to effectively expel a student without credible (adult) witnesses.
So basically, until there is a HUGE uproar, the system will be allowed to continue as it is. Glad my kids are never going to public school to learn such a harsh and pointless lesson.
In space, no one can hear you moo.
The bullying may have started it all, but it wouldn't be anything new. The only reason this story appeared on our radar screens is because it involved that magic word "GUNS".
As soon as you Yanks realise that humans in general are too immature to be trusted with guns, and that there should not be a "right to bear arms", THEN you will immediately get rid of this problem, THEN you can save lives, AND you can start dealing with more fundamental issues (like bullying) without worrying about who's going to get shot while the bully discussions are happening.
- OzJuggler.
Life's a buffer; you can only get out of it what you put into it! C:-)
CBC Radio had an interesting program on the subject of schoolyard bullys. The program is available for listening here http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismorning/sites/hea lth/bullies_001214/bullies_001214.html.
There are lots of resources on the associated links page. Highly recommended.
Gary Walsh Support Technician DeVita Associates
I learned to get people off me by dealing in the same embarassment tactics they used. Bullies are jackals, and will turn on each other if they smell (emotional) blood. Have your son use this. He will need to use it judiciously, but it is the best sword we have.
But, put him in a non-religious private school where excellence is praised, not punished as it is in public schools. Nothing in America is hated as much as youthful intelligence, he must find a refuge from this backward attitude. (I say non-religious because religious instruction takes time away from academic subjects. Spiritual subjects should be taught at home/church) Good luck, and don't forget that Nerds Will Rule The World.
It seems that interpersonal relations are not the only place this school has it's head on the wrong end of the digestive system.
And, the school's website is back up! Hit 'em again! Hit 'em again! Harder! Harder!
I don't. Actually, he should have pulled his son out of the country while he was at it. If this trend continues, in a few years it'll be illegal to have an IQ higher than George W. Bush's, and then bye bye technology leadership, bye bye trillion-dollar GNP, bye bye bearable life, hello Mad Max.
I used the web form at the school district website to express my displeasure over their handling of the matter. I mentioned that I'm planning on publishing an editorial on the matter, and that I plan to comment on the notion that schools in America, MISD schools in particular, seem to punish the victims of bullying and harrasment, rather than reprimand the instigators of most school discipline problems in the first place.
/.ers are using the web form.
I recieved a response within 20 minutes. What this means is, either they are cutting and pasting the response, or not enough
I do plan to write an editorial and publish it.
The representative of the School system asked in her email where I intend to publish it so that they may copy it for their files.
*** JON KATZ *** copy your article to Diana Gulotta (dgulotta@mckinseyisd.com) as well.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
The problem with the PC version of tolleration is that they don't actually teach tolleration. They teach conformity. TO be a tollerant under the PC version, you must abandon your moral values as absolutes and replace them with situational ethics. If I believe that ________ is bad all the time, I am labled "intollerant" by anyone that thinks that it is okay. This is not tolleration, it is conformity. Tolleration would mean that I can believe what I want, you can believe what you want, and both of us respect the person for having values in the first place.
The problem expressed here is a direct result of this tolleration crap forcing conformity where it should not exist. The bullies have only learned that there are no absolutes and those that don't agree with that statement can be labled as intollerant, and aren't worthy of any respect.
Libret
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
When the other kids played soccer, I was into books. When the other boys played raunchy games, I was the outsider. When other kids threw a party I was locked out. The girls figured me to be - well, strange. And guess what: It hurt! Although I made a point of not giving a shit and continuing with my stuff and my education.
Now guess what: When I happen to stumble over some of those morons decades later, they have shitty jobs, a mediocre salary and are aparently locked into a situation which makes them fundamentally unhappy.
I for my part funded my own company, which won't make me rich, but allows me to live very well. I have a spouse who's an interesting women and with whom I live a fairly exciting life. My peers and my customers respect me and over the cause of my life I drank the finest wines and enjoyed the greatest sex. Although of course that came much later.
Your situation is different of course, and evidently you experienced gross unfairness. That hurts and it eats away on you, but! You'll get over it.
So, what do I want to tell you?
Stick to your convictions and do the right thing. Carry on, educate yourself and believe me; eventually all the laughs are on you.
If you want to mail me (remove spaces) you can do so at a l a i n at c o d a . c h
Hang in there and trust me it's worth it...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
Ok, lets face the facts. Most people in the school district don't care about the children. They just want to save their own backsides. The only time a teacher ever does care about the child is if that child is helping the teacher in some way. (ie. fixing his/her computer) All they want to do is get through the day, keep themselves out of trouble, and get their paycheck. Now, this is only 98% of the Teachers/Administrators. There is that 2% that do care about the students, try and find them though.
No, it's till there, last I checked. You just need to go to the main page and clikc to to the comment box.
Stupid like a fox!
Trust me, it makes a difference. When you do bring up school shootings and you find out that most of these kids were made to be outsiders by the bullies in school, the principles take notice (unless they are on the All-State Basketball team, then it is a different story).
B
Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
While there is the fact that the kid could have kept the bullying quiet for years, all it takes is a "Hey, what's going on?" once a day with your kid and the problem usually presents itself.
My Daughter was having issues at her school (obviously she's a bit younger) but we had a quiet talk with the teacher (who was clueless to the problem) and our daughter has reported that things ARE better (and so are her grades).
B
Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
I have been in British private education all my life, and the situation isn't all that different. Admittedly, you are not expelled for merely threats - however psychological bullying is tolerated. If anything it is encouraged.
Apparently it builds character, personally I found that it made me an uncommunicative recluse.
The only respite I had from the tyranny was when I entered University - I then realised that current civilised societal order is a complete facade (mine included).
The only reassuring fact (cognitive dissonance?) was that I was burying myself in inanimate material (eg - games, anime, music etc.) and not in a manafcatured social order (eg - an insidious parasite of the "posse").
The irony is that the social "elite" are more screwed up than the "geeks" they ostracize - simply because they don't know what a lie they are living.
...my only 100 yen credit...
Ollie
Cacophanus
http://cacophanus.net/
A book that helped me to structure my thoughts about being "different" and society's reaction to me was Ursula Le Guin's work "The Dispossessed".
Whilst it doesn't give answers (thankfully!) it most certainly points thoughts in a constructive direction.
Ollie
Cacophanus
http://cacophanus.net/
Figures this was posted buy a faggot sackless, AC...if your gonna have an opinion at least have the balls to sign your name to it Asshole. And your wrong by the way, if the school bothered to look into things like this they would toss the bully, and leave this kid.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I had seans problems, but I never told my parents, its my life and I choose to dela with it myself, I know how to fight. I played the game my way, I didn't sink to these jerks level they eventually ran out of words and took a swing, I'd give them a black eye or two, break a nose, or an arm...they would leave me alone for while till some one else got brave, repeat cycle. Moral of this story, PEOPLE teach your fucking kid to defend himself, stop being a pacifist, PC, weak ass jerk. Let your kid know its ok to defend himself, I never started a fight infact I avoided them(I didn't like to get in trouble), but if it happened I ended it as quickly and brutally as I could.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Orson Scott Card "Ender's Game" it it explains all in vivid detail. it ought to be school teacher, principal, etc required reading. "Ender's Shadow" as well actually.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I was in the same situation most of my school life, I never fit in because I was in a schooldistrict where you looked and acted the same as everyone else or you didn't get accepted(this changed in High School by the way when i could choose my own classes, and then could choose to be with kids who were actually intelligent and wanted to learn, but in the lower 1-8 grades they seem to like to keep things mixed up, so you must become part of the lowest common denominator) Anyway, there are two ways to help the problem, both of which work pretty well: 1. Nearly every school has a Honors/gifted student program of some sort, convince the school he belongs there, and NOT with the lowest common demoninator. He will be with people of his own caliber, and perhaps even more interested in his school work. This can be hard if he is like I was, and bored with the work, and therefore only getting average grades(I didn't excel, until i was challenged I was just plain bnored and didn't care, i considered everything busy work, and yes Schools really do give more busy work to the lowest common denominator, I had a teacher as much as admit it once) He might excel, he might even fail but either way socially he will be better off. 2. This is the harder part you might agree with less. Teach him to fight, now hear me out. On almost a yearly basis someone would decide to push too far, but I Knew how to fight, although I avoided it. In the end I would stand up to them, and eventually this poor person having run out of words would try to talk with a fist instead. I never started a fight, but I always finished it, and in the end the tomenting would end for a while, usually the result of a couple black eyes, and once or twice a broken nose. usually this led to a 2-5 days suspension, but it was worth it. (Twice the administration of the school was so happy that someone had finally knocked the bully of the year down to size they didn't even suspend me, because of the other guys rep)
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
The hard part about this is the fact that so many of us can relate to Sean's circumstance. We, as Slashdot readers have already demonstrated that we "get it" and live in a brighter world one step removed from the stimulus/response masses (the Jerry Springer crowd). Part of the process that pushed us out of the crowd is very painful, but it's our talents and abilities that first separated us from the crowd. Remarkable people tend to live remarkable lives and do amazing things, but this requires stepping or being pushed outside the 'standard' envelope and this is a very painful process, but it is exactly where we get the strength to stand out and lead. It's true, today's schools make it very difficult to be excellent or different. This is why they hand out Ridilin like it was popcorn, to push more outstanding kids back into the 'normal' band. Sean was pushed and he reacted childishly. It was a reflex that was probably beneath him and it was a mistake he will learn from. The fact that he was a target for ridicule demonstrates that he is probably a talented and creative person. This episode was painful, but it will teach him things that will shape and push him to be stronger in the future. Did the school react stupidly? duh. But most "standard institutions" are going to react stupidly. Sean will learn how to manipulate that in the future to his advantage. Most institutions are managed by the krill that don't have a clue. Thankfully, Sean has already taken the first step to living beyond that.
The more you scare people.....the more they will pay.
First of all, I'd send a clear, concise letter to the school, the superintendent, the mayor, the governor, local newspaper, New York Times, etc expressing your distress and disgust at the way the schools are treating your child. Don't play the victim, merely state the situation, your points, present some quotable facts, and then make it very clear that your child will be home schooled.
Do not ask for your child to be re-admitted. I can imagine the ridicule and harassment after such an event... it can only get worse.
Then, perhaps the Slashdot members can post a list below of recommended sources of information on home schooling (or any other alternative schooling methods).
If and when I have children I am seriously considering home schooling them. I got along with most people in high school, but then again, maybe I was the one harassing people. Either way, it's something I'd rather have my children avoid.
So, let's get the list started...
What pisses me off.. is if he would have just slugged the kid he probally would have gotten a few days supsension for fighting and that would have been all.. but no.. he resorts to his wit and he get's thrown out for being a 'threat'... this just pisses me off...
What did you want the school district to comment on? Why is the secretary asking about Slashdot? Is part of the article missing?
Y'know, that really is nothing. And don't consider this a boast in any way, just a way of pointing to the way things are. When I was in school there were a bunch of guys who used to bully and piss off me and a bunch of friends. We couldn't go to the teachers because, surprise surprise, there wasn't much they could do since all the friends of the bullies would say we were lying. So instead we just bitched about them behind their backs, some of which involved revenge fantasies. I don't think we ever discussed killing anyone, just hurting them in return for the hurt they caused us (and, on reflection, then some), and these fantasies were just a way of venting our anger. I won't go into details, because I think my point has been made - we never did any of this stuff, of course not. You can think up revenge fantasies and wish them on your worst enemy, but unless you are seriusly screwed in the head there's that little human thing inside you that says "Now, that isn't really a good thing to do now is it, it's wrong", so you don't stick a pencil in your annoying bosses arm or walk into school armed with a baseball bat. I'm really sad to see the way that post-Columbine paranoia has hurt this kid - suddenly it's not the moron bullies that are the dangerous ones at school, it's the quiet, conciencious geeks who might just whip up a deadly arsenal and take it to school one day. As if. America's knee jerk reaction to an off hand defensive comment of a kid is to ban him from school - what is the world coming to?
As someone else pointed out, hearing the school or district's (or other classmates') side of the story would be great. I think this needs to happen before we automatically assume there's an injustice here. I've done some quick searches for news in that area, but they didn't turn up anything. Can anyone share a link?
I'll pass along these semi-relevant links...
McKinney Independent School District home page.
Here are some media releases from that school district (18 months ago)... a bomb threat and, on a separate occasion, two students were arrested for pulling the fire alarm.
Interestingly, in the case of the fire alarm arrests, the school superintendent said:
Even though this situation turned out to be a hoax, we took the threat very seriously and initiated the proper precautions. Instructional time was not interrupted anywhere in MISD
No word if those students were allowed to continue at the school.
That's called "retroactive abortion". I'm one of the big supporters of retroactive abortion rights. I believe abortion should be permitted up to the 75th trimester.
Given the recent well-publicized high school incidents, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone at all that this kid was expelled. The school authorities are merely reacting (over-reacting), but think of how much furore it would have raised in the media had they chosen to ignore this kid's threat (and he went to do something stupid involving a gun).... So, for a moment, for just one brief moment, let us suspend our knee-jerk reaction (geeks are good/establishment evil/why oh why do bullies pick on geeks) and think if we are not being unduly harsh in our criticism of the system here. What is the system to do? If they turn away from the problem and, some poor boy, in an act of desparation pulls out a gun, the school gets slammed. If they choose to isolate the boy from the rest of the students, the school still gets slammed. Where is the answer to be found, then? To banish bullies and jocks and non-geeks from this planet (heck, i would love that but that would be another form of harassment and racism)? To develop an alternate educational system catering only to the geek, the meek and the ones who do not speak? Sadly, it is my belief that the American education system and our society are up against a wall. Extreme solutions (such as expelling this boy) will bring torment and pain to many. Extreme non-interference will also hurt (and kill)many. I do not have children, and therefore, perhaps I sound objective and distant in my argument. The kid's dad, of course, knows the anguish and the frustration first hand, and therefore, it would be interesting to hear his pov. But I fail to see why this story has to be covered in /.
you are right....hanging in there is probably the *only* way out. Of course, some times, not every one has that option, and sometimes, the dam breaks open.. Hind sight and nostalgia might make my high school years seem positively beautiful, but yeah, who can forget barbs about height/weight/hair/clothes/speech impediments blah blah blah...But seriously, how does it matter now? In fact, I will argue that this obstacle actually made us better people. Some kids chose to work harder on their grades, some picked up the computer, some picked up a guitar (and all those Rush albums). However, I do feel bad for some kids who just decided to fade into the background, hoping no one would ever notice them.
The problem was, there is no fear or even respect for the teachers. If I respect a teacher, I'm not going to put them through shit. If they ask me to be quiet, I will, because I figure they have good cause. OTOH, if the student is an asshole, they're not going to respect any teacher.
.. well.. a really hard place.
Now, back in the day, teachers were feared. If you talked back to a teacher, you got the shit beaten out of you. The teacher had most of the powers of a parent. Even barring physical punishment, teachers no longer have any power. If they try to discapline (sp?) a student, the parent will throw a tantrum that the teacher is overstepping their role, they have no right, blah blah. If the teacher doesn't do anything, that same parent asks why the teacher doesn't do anything, and blah and blah.
Quiet frankly the teachers are stuck between a huge ass rock, and a
BS.
He does not leave his right to speak behind when he steps onto school property. If the quotes are accurate, he did not make a threat. Not even an implied one, to my mind.
Sounds to me like someone's teenager needs to learn to get a grip. But of course, why should he? They were already picking on this kid, and what better way to mess with someone in school than to get them suspended. For doing nothing more than cracking wise, no less.
My daughter recounted to me a story wherein she told on a classmate for breaking some inane, and the lad knocked her in the arm (a move for which he did not get in trouble, btw). And here's what I told her (and what I'd say to any kid), "you don't tell on kids for stuff that doesn't matter." Doesn't mean she deserved to get hit, but c'mon, when I was a kid we called this being a tattle-tale.
In the Katz story we're hearing about a kid who hadn't done a thing, hadn't indicated he was going to do a thing. The other kids were so afraid he was actually going to shoot them that they stood there and joked about it? And he's the one that gets suspended? Personally, I think it's sad the father pulled his son out of the district. I would have contacted the local ACLU reps. They've been winning cases on this "no tolerance" crap at a rather nice clip lately.
Frankly, kids tattling all the time is not a good trend. Next they'll be turning their parents in for this kind of nonsense. (Woo, a 1984 reference!)
I do not have a signature
Perhaps they moved or deleted it due to the traffic?
sulli
RTFJ.
attending a kindergarten round-up. Essentially they invite the parents and children to the school and show them the facilities, meet the staff, and have a Q&A session. I shadowed my daughter as she went to a classroom and participated in a few of the activities she would do as a kindergartner.
One of the things that we were sure we asked is if they allow impromptu visits from parents. They said, "Definitely! We encourage our parents to drop by any time. We'll be happy to have you come to lunch, sit in on a class, anything." There were a lot of things about the school we looked at that I liked, but we're still not sure about sending our daughter to public school at all. Even with good teachers and good schools, the education process in America breeds out curiosity and individuality. I sat in with the soon-to-be kindergartners and there were a couple who were happily still coloring their hand puppet when it was time for "storytime" These children were, politely, forced to come sit down "on the carpet" and listen to the story and then participate in a sing-a-long. I don't want to paint too negative a picture here, the teacher talked gently to the child and offered to sit with her if she would come to the carpet. That was a plus, but there was one child who was visibly scared and didn't want to participate at all. She wasn't getting any attention at all, she was holding her hand in her mouth and crying. I called out to her and held her in my lap and let her sit with me during storytime. Perhaps so many unfamiliar children crowded around her on the carpet scared her, I don't know. She seemed to adjust and I put her down to re-join the group.
My wife and I are seriously considering Home-Schooling, and living in Texas(this is a general comment on the article) is wonderful for the home-schooler. Texas has some of the most lenient laws for home-schooling. All we have to do is register our desire to home-school, meet a few very basic requirements as to cirriculum(we have to teach citizenship and american history, but that's about it) and we're set. In some states you have to be a certified teacher before they'll let you home-school. I was home-schooled and I think it was much better for me to be in a loving/dedicated home environment, than a factorylike building dedicated to assembly-line citizen/consumer producing.
I would love to see videotaping in schools. I've never even considered taking my children anywhere(daycare when we were in college, and now, possibly, school) where there wasn't an open invitation to parents to check in at any time. More and more schools/daycares are beginning to understand parent's concern with non-visitation policies. And more and more parents are beginning to demand open visitation policies. There is a local grocery store with a supervised play area for the children while the parents shop. It has CCTV piped from there to a couple dozen monitors spread through the store so we can keep an eye on what's going on with the children at any time. We prefer that store, even though it has higher prices a fair bit of the time and is further from the house than about three other stores.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with other posters who said the potential embarassment to the faculty will probably keep video cameras out of schools, or at least video cameras the public could look at. I went to a college which is famous for producing quality teachers, it's as famous/reputable among teaching circles as Harvard is among business/law circles. I can spot a good teacher a mile away, and I can tell you, there aren't very many in public schools. Partly it's the low wages, partly it's the emphasis on standardized tests and the beaurocratic BS(good teachers love freedom from paperwork and rigamorale as much as geeks) and partly it's the fear of having to deal with unruly students who want nothing but social promotions and have no love for the subject the teacher feels so passionately about. It's hard to constantly throw your pearls before swine, so I can't blame them there.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
What should be done is, parents of both the kids should get together along with the kids to work out the differences. Parents who leave the system to "raise" their children as well as teach them, are just as much to blame as the kids are. I'm not sure I'm willing to let my kids go through the turmoil sure to follow any real reform of the educational system. I'll take them out and teach them at home before I'd let them be part of a system which was re-inventing itself. They're too valuable to me to let them be guinea pigs for a system which has proven itself to be abusive and cruel in it's worst form and uncaring/incompetent in it's best. Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
I'd guess that the home-schooler you know was home-schooled somewhere in the early eighties or close to that. Even moreso, I wouldn't be suprised if the reason their parents chose to teach them at home was not religious. At that time, there were few home-schoolers and there was almost no infrastructure to support/advocate home-schooling. The primary reasons people taught at home was so they could give their children a "moral" upbringing. Since there was lack of decent, integrated and tested cirriculum, and because they were actively trying to make the kids different, of course there were social mismatches.
Since that time, home-schooling has advanced tremendously. There are now complete cirriculums, lesson plans, textbooks, recommended schedules, test banks, etc, geared towards the home-based school. These cirriculums are mostly tied to some religion, but there are some secular offerings as well. Because of the generation of home-school social outcasts, like your sample, there has been a growth of people who pay attention to the social development of people who are taught at home. You'll often find several families getting together for field trips(my family did this in the early 80's, possibly why we weren't like most home-schoolers. Maybe it was because we had a large family and had several kids at home all the time and weren't alone in our classroom with Mom and Dad), or co-operative study sessions.
We'll probably home-school our kids, even though we kind of like the school in our area. But, we know now what our parents didn't know then. We can't force the kids out of social situations based on religion or the method of their education. My wife and I take our children on field trips weekly. We have a weekly playgroup, a monthly le Leche League meeting, and a weekly Spanish lesson taught by a friend. We're members of a few of the local museums including The Science Place. We take them there regularly and let them learn about physics/art/science/culture. I have a job which allows me flex time so I can take an extra hour or so at home in the mornings if I feel like playing with the kids before I go to work, or take off early if I feel like going home and doing something with them. We went to the library last night and checked out a couple dozen books, each child picked out five books. We read to them daily and nightly.
It's often said that the failures of our school system are the failures of our parents. That is doubly true for home-schooled children. If your friend is not social, it's because his parents didn't teach him to be social, not because he learned while sitting in a home instead of a citizen/consumer factory.
One of my favorite exchanges happened in this thread, I'm re-posting it here because it was partly between ACs and I'd like it to get archived.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
But it is. I doubt anyone alive today can deny being bullied at some point. The readers of /. probably took/take more abuse than the general populace. The reason this belongs here is that concerns EVERYONE and turning a blind eye to it is stupid. I expect comments like these on message boards frequented by the dregs of the internet, but not here. One would THINK that the term nerd is at least somewhat synonymous with intelligent. Even moderately intelligent.
Ignoring actions like these only makes the next step more likely. If kids are being thrown out for things like this, then tomorrow it will be idle threats. After that will be "suspicions" of
"thoughts" of wrongdoing. In the end, the blatant disregard of human rights in public schools will be enforced by the police or even military. What we will be left with is an educational system that only caters to those adhering to the government's model of a "good human being."
Now, does the Nazi-esque comparison read loud and clear or do I need to spell it out more?
My first cynical response to this story was that we oughta take Peter Singer's advice on late-late-late-past-term abortion and rid our schools of these abominable malformed feti known as "bullies," thus eliminating the problem. But then, not too many people agree with, or even sympathize with, Dr. Singer's views, so that may not be the right tack.
Maybe the only way to counter a bully's physical violence is to wear a suit covered with outward-facing spikes. Take that as honest advice, or as a metaphor, and it might just work.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
First thing, look into GRE requirements. If he has a GRE at 16 then nobody is going to ask much about high school. Second thing, look into early college admissions. I'd start next county over at Texas Wesleyan, which 10 years ago had nice early admissions and nice scholarship programs, and he wouldn't even have to stay in the dorm if you get him a car. Okay, not exactly ivy league. Nobody said he has to spend all 4 years there and nobody said he can't do grad work someplace "big". Write off this bunch of high school bozos, except perhaps for legal action to get this nonsense off his transcript.
I'm sorry this happened to your family. I don't know that you can do anything to change the system without a lot of support from other parents in your district.
-- I Am Not A Terrorist.
Suspecting someone of narrowmindedness because of the state they live in is hypocrisy.
Because the entire event took place within a school during school hours and involved only minors, and because no law was actually broken, it is permissible for the proceeding to be non-judicial. There is no guarantee in such a system of any rights, nor are there any procedural obligations.
In most cases, this is as it should be. You'd not be appreciative if it took a jury of one's peers to assign detention for chewing gum, thereby wasting even more of your tax dollars on non-educational school time. In most non-judicial arenas there is a rather severe limit on the extent of punishment that may be meted out, and that (to me) is the issue here. If he broke a known school rule and got caught, punishing him in some form is appropriate. Expulsion shouldn't be an option for what appears to have been such an informal review, however.
Damn, this is one of the best trolls I've seen here in a while.
Assuming the following:
1) The students doing the bullying were engaged in clearly illegal activity (theft, property damage, battery).
2) A substancial portion of this behavior was reported to the school over the year and systematically ignored.
and 3) Specific incidents can be documented, preferrably with cooborating witnesses.
How about trying a new tactic and filing criminal charges against the superintendent for accessory to each offense committed against the student after first receiving notification that such activity was occuring? Seems to me that the super's behavior in this matter has been rather criminal anyway, so it would make sense for him to face criminal charges in some way related to it.
What about the teachers? People seem to forget there is a group of adults around these kids all day. Parents want to trust that they will spot the next kid who will go on a rampage. But say nothing when teachers seem unable to see bullying in the halls and classrooms.
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
The school website says that, if the school is closed due to snow or bad weather, that they will inform the Dallas/Ft. Worth area radio and television.
Here's some of the Dallas/Ft. Worth stations:
CBS 11 (KTVT), with contact information
NBC 5 (KXAS)
UPN 21 (KTXA), which has a news segment called the Teen Files, they may be interested.
Someone in the area may want to contact one or more of these stations, and give contact information to explain what Slashdot is.
Glad to see bullies are still alive and well. I was bullied in Grade school. I had my face smashed into a brick wall and broke a tooth. No punishment for anyone. I got a three day suspension for being hit in the face. The bully got three days as well.
One day, at summer camp, I snapped. I was pushed backwards over a bench by a kid a year older and a foot taller. I grabbed a coffee can filed with sand (for fire prevention) and hit him in the head with it. Boy, was he pissed at me. I was about to get thrashed when he noticed all the blood on his hand. A dozen stiches and a tetnis shot later, I never had any trouble with him again.
My new rep travelled with me to High School and I was seldom picked on there.
Defend yourselves, people! Never threaten, act. Worse that can happen is you get beat up again.
Viv
-----------
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
Seriosly, it is a shame what happened. I think most of us /.'ers can understand the Seans point of view.
Well can you blame them? The administrators at school districts are all the ex-bullies at campuses. They work there because they have fond memories of high school, and can only identify with the bullies, not with the geeks. Pretty much what they said in Breakfast Club. Brian
Kurdt
Kurdt
I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
I mean, sure, this is stupid and unfair. But similar happened to me (except the geek part, i can't claim that) a few weeks ago. Some kids came over to me and asked me if i was going to shoot up the school. I felt the same need to make a joke, but i had time to think and realize i couldnt make a threat, my school is anal about that (then again, i live within ten miles of both santana and granite hills, i attend patrick henery) so i said, "yeah, im gonna go home, get my super soaker, and you're all fucked." Come on kid, you had to realize that yo uwould get in trouble (even if you shouldnt)
"Cornflakes are not the innocent critters they seem"- Sterling Morrison
The Sydney Morning Herald carried a vaguely similar story just today, however with an entirely different outcome.
"Extracts from the 15-year-old's diary, detailing massacre plans for Cecil Hills High School, were read to NSW Parliament by Mr Aquilina on April 10 and reporters later wrongly told there was a gun registered to his house."
"Mr Aquilina also announced his press secretary Patrick Low had taken responsibility for the debacle and had resigned."
-- kai
Verbing Weirds Language.
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
He didn't make a threat. He didn't say "I have a gun". He said - after a gun was mentioned - that if it was a gun "you'd be dead". That is not interpretable as a threat. Only as a statement of fact and a warning that a line has been crossed.
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
I guess one of the better routes towards a solution is to get alot of support from the public (/. is a good start) and have the public contact the local education authority or whatever BUT I would be extremely reluctant to help this cause without hearing the school's side of the story.
Pinky: "What are we going to do tomorrow night Brain?"
Brain: "I would tell you Pinky but this 120 char limi
When I was in junior high (7th grade) in Chicago's northwest suburbia, I was in a situation similar to Sean's. In that school, dumping books was the big thing. One day, after coming back to my math class, I found my folders strewn all over the hall, and I lost it. Threw a tantrum, pushed my way through a teacher (the gym 'teacher'), left the school, and walked home. Then walked back to the school.
When I got back, they'd decided they didn't want me, so I was put into an alternative program in a different school district, and it was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I enjoyed the rest of that school year, then skipped 8th grade to go into a private high school. In that school, pretty much everyone was respected, treated equally, and treated each other equally.
To this day I'm thankful that I got out of that junior high, and that I didn't have to go to the local public high school.
So I agree with Sean that he's better off not going back to that school. To Sean's dad, I suggest looking into that 'alternative' school, or private schools (but in Dallas' suburbia, that's probably not a good option), or continuing with home schooling. Or, heck, letting Sean go straight to college. He's probably ready academically, and that would be a much better social environment for him than high school.
jeffk 19 april 2001
[sigs? We don't need no steenking sigs!]
the junior has never been in trouble of any sort, his father says, inside or out of school: never been arrested, disciplined, suspended, or even involved in a fight.
This deserves a George Carlin quote...
"Some people say, 'It's the quiet ones you've got to watch!' I say, while you're watching the quiet ones, a noisy one will fucking kill you!"
"And like that
But I figure, once I'm out the chance that the football star, fake 4.0 (no honors classes, easiest load known to man, parents are "teachers") will become anything useful are slim to none. We'll see what these people become in the future. I know at my 10-year reunion I'm going to have a nice little laugh.
When I felt down at all, I would just look around and wonder which one of these morons would be picking up my garbage in a few years...
"And like that
...get a lawyer, take the school district to court. This isn't like a business that can refuse business to anyone, this is a school district, funded by tax payers dollars and accountable to the courts. I'd contact an attorney and see what my options are-- things like this need to be challenged in court and hopefully set a precedent that schools can't kick kids out because of the latest school shooting craze.
(Besides which, kicking kids out of school for having even THOUGHT of it or spoken the idea aloud IS NOT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT.. what's to stop these "potentially violent youth" from just coming back and waltzing into the school with a loaded fire-arm later? Out of all the kids in the school, would someone notice someone kicked out a month or two after it happened? (And further, pursue it enough to detain the kid and take them to an adult?) No, school shootings are best avoided by intervention and counseling, not making kids feel like their feelings are justified by punishing them.)
IMHO, of course.
All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
I'm a junior in a public high school in Texas. Earlier this school year, this kid for a few days in a row starts picking on me (verbal, spit sunflower seeds at me, pushed me around)... I think cause I don't look like or act I will do anything about it. So one day, I kick his ass (i snapped, I wish I didn't do it in class) after he confronts me and asks for me to do something... There was a substitute in class that day, so she sends us to the principal. That kid tries to make it a religious issue (he's a jew), she doesnt buy it, but she gives both of us a choice between 3 days in school suspension or 3 days saturday detention (I chose detention). That pissed me off, she was like "If there is any harassment in this school you need to tell someone".
Great speech by Gatto. Thanks rvr.
It is absurd and anti-life to move from cell to cell at the sound of a gong for every day of your natural youth in an institution that allows you no privacy and even follows you into the sanctuary of your home demanding that you do its "homework".
The worst part is that for many people, this kind of life doesn't end when you leave high school. I know a lot of people who spend most of their waking hours attached to corporate networks and think they have flexibility. But if you teach yourself and create your own reality, you can go on doing it for the rest of your life.
I think we can all agree as to what would be fair in this case: The bullies should be put to task for their parts in this case.
However, what would be required? The principal or other authority would have to hear about it. Then, the authority would have to take some sort of action. This action would then have to be followed up to ensure that the offending behavior is not repeated.
This all requires work. In order to hear about the taunting, Sean would have to be questioned about the event. Then the bullies would have to be questioned. Decisions would have to be made regaurding the truthfulness of the situation and a punishment decided upon. From there the authority would have to be certain that the bullies simply did not revert back to their old habbits. Of course, any action taken against the bullies may invovle their parents.
It is much simplier to blame Sean entirely and call and end to the whole matter. Further, to ensure that it does not happen again, it is easier to shunt the problem off to another school. What happened to Sean was the path of least resistance.
In the end, if you have to sue the place or whatever to get the administration to act responsibly, then I seriously doubt that this is the place for your son. If you cannot afford private school, then I think home schooling is an excellent option. I am sure Sean will become a much better coder for it.
If you do go the private school option, I strongly recogmend that Sean join some sort of organization so that he can get the proper amount of socializing with his peers.
Best of Luck!
Teachers (and their wonderful unions) claim that they aren't paid enough to be good at what they do- the old "pay me more and I'll do good-er." But people who work 3/4 of the year and get paid 3/4 or more than a comporable job don't have much to complain about.
[Here's where we get fatalistic]
Schools will always stink because parents as a whole do not get involved, teachers and administrators are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to do their jobs effectively, and the media is too concerned with promoting the myth that schools are drug-frenzied shooting galleries.
These are the crappy schools we get because they are the crappy schools we deserve.
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could deal with the problems and not the results...
--- I used to moderate, then I read the -1 articles and decided having to filter through them was not worth it.
Heck no. Despite your desire to protect your "little angel" from the big bad world, what that school did was extremist. How about a hearing? How about questioning all parties? How 'bout a little fuckin' due process?!?!?!
Since when is a comment made sarcastically or as a jest something to be acted upon? Where was the probable cause to toss the kid out of school.
This is, typically, the standard knee-jerk reaction.
You know *how* to prevent gun violence in school? Encourage your kid to defend himself. No-one ever died from an after-school ass-beating. Urge your local, state and federal government to *prosecute* those who violate the 20,000+ gun laws on the books. Teach your kid how to use a gun responsibly and why using a gun for other than self-defense, hunting or keeping the king of england out of your face is wrong, legally and/or morally.
Years ago (13, to be exact) when I was in school, kids were perfectly willing to "duke it out." There was a line not to be crossed - and that line was guns. Today's "darling little angels" are unable to take what they dish out on others and are unwilling to "lose face" by taking an ass-beating.
Also, how 'bout you take your fuckin' job as a parent seriously, and *be* a parent - fuck your career and trips to Aspen.
The underlying problem can be traced to the children of hippies, who are parents of teens today. Hippie children have been used to being given things by *their* ex-hippy yuppie parents. These current parents have been conditioned to feel that they deserve something without working for it and that their "feelings" are precious and they have the unalienable right to not be offended. They've passed this (and other bad ideas) to *their* children who are today's teens, while neglecting their 1st job of being parents in favor of 6 figures and a corner office. They've forced parenting and citizenship to be something teachers do, rather than teaching.
In addition, these socialist leftist ex-hippy liberal scum have decided that the 1st amendment guarantee of protection from an established state religion means, in their warped sense of reality, that there is a "separation of church and state." As such, good habits, character and citizenship have slowly been tossed out in favor of "me-me-me" and political correctness by "society."
How 'bout takin' some fuckin' personal responsibility and being parents? Maybe then, parentless, single-parent, or career-caused parentless kids have role models other than hoodlum sports figures and trenchcoat-wearing punks.
In general, modern problems have medieval solutions...
I am a father. I've thought about what I would do in situations like this. I have a question.
Sean was allegedly bullied and harassed until he reached the point where he "snapped" (that was hardly a snap, IMO). Now the father is talking to the school.
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied?
Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault? Whatever you may think of Texas criminal justice, there are still laws against assault, you know.
Only now that Sean is in trouble does the father bring up bullying and harassment. Apparently, the father didn't think it was much of a problem for his son to be subjected to this before.
Am I the only person who wonders just how much "bullying" Sean was really subjected to?
If my son is ever put in Sean's position, I don't think I'll wait for him to "snap" before I intervene.
That's what fathers are for.
The real DunkPonch is user 215121. Everyone else is Bruce Perens.
The district specifically prohibits students from bring recording devices to campus. In fact a few students at another school (in another southern California district) brought a video camera into class to prove how awful the teachers were. They made a joint out of oregano and smoked in it the back and video taped it. They released the tape to the public just to show how they *could* have gotten away with smoking pot in class. The district had a similar rule and had the student's suspended for it. Mind you they were not suspended for smoking, but for bring and using a recording device.
Hmm, I'm not doing that justice. Here's a link. It's worth a look.
For the goat paranoid (capriphobic?), it's:_ 6_29_01 /toby_feat_6_29_01.asp
http://www.weeklystandard.com/magazine/mag
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Perhaps what is needed is for more parents such as Sean's to stand up against such cowardice and give them the very thing they are so afraid of (lawsuits). While it does not move the balance towards what's right and away from fear, it at least pushes them to be fearful of not doing what's right.
Sean's father says he can not afford a lawyer. In the post I'm replying to, several free or lowcost options are explored. I don't know if anyone's organising a fund or not (and sorry, I know far too little about such things to offer) but if Sean's father [or someone organising a fund] wishes to contact me, I for one will pledge a couple of hundred dollars towards legal costs. It may not be much but it doesn't take that large a percentage of /. readers doing the same to make an example out of the school involved and hopefully give other highschools reason to think before siding with the bullies in the future.
I can be reached via nick_davison@hotmail.com
Truth is, as children we don't have the basis for rational judgements. You can't subject a child to a year or more of hell and expect him to "Do the Right Thing", when the adults who've been witness to the situation have failed to do the right thing consistently for that year. This 16 year old child, in the heat of the moment and after a year of abuse, did nothing more than say words. He made a statement which might be interpreted as a threat. Might. Personally, I'd send my children into a school filled with Sean Sheeleys without reservation, and certainly ages before I'd subject them to the f*ckwits we all seem to have known so well.
Someone should contact the local public news-station down there in McKinney. (And while you're talking to them, tell them what a Slashdot is.)
This statement is false.
I just contacted 6 news-stations there in the McKinney area, and 2 said they would check it out. We'll see what happens.
This statement is false.
I'm curious. How does having a concealed firearm stop someone from robbing you at gun point and then shooting you in the face?
For several reasons. One, it makes a situation like that less likely to occur in the first place. States that enact shall-issue concealed carry laws commonly see a noticeable drop in violent crime. Criminals are basically cowards (much like bullies) they prefer victims who are unarmed and unwilling to fight back.
Second, it at least gives you a fighting chance. If you're unarmed robbed at gunpoint and then told that you're going to die, what options do you have? Begging for you life?
If you live in America then go to your local public library and look through a couple of issues of American Rifleman. Every library I've been in has a subscription, so it shouldn't be difficult to find. Look at the section entitled "The Armed Citizen", I believe is the title. Every month they run newspaper stories from around the nation of people who successfully used a firearm to defend themselves and/or their family. Perhaps that will answer your question.
I don't think you read what I said. I said that it makes the situation less likely to occur because concealed carry laws have been shown to reduce violent crime. To a criminal, the thought that their victim might be armed acts as a strong deterrent (which is also why that violent crimes go down but burglaries at unoccupied homes tend to go up when these laws are passed, it's safer for the criminal you see.)
I don't know the specifics of what happened to you, and I don't consider the contents of my wallet to be worth risking my life for either. But in many situations a firearm in the hands of a civilian who has taken the time to get proper training and practices on a regular basis does make that person safer.
I'll repeat what I said in my first post, since you didn't bother to read it. It does have a tendency to make you safer, because in a situation where your life or the life of a family is in danger it at least gives you a fighting chance. At least it's a better option than getting on your knees and begging for your life.
A gun is not a magic wand that instantly makes you immune to crime, but in well-trained hands it can be an effective tool to keep you and your family safe.
Of course you've neglected to mention Switzerland. Also, Australia and the UK both have higher violent crime than the US, despite having passed some very draconian gun laws and confiscating the majority of legally owned firearms. Yet the UK is awash in cheap illegal firearms. Gun control does not reduce crime.
As for handing out guns to just anyone, try going into a gun shop (if you live in the US) and ask the person behind the counter what it takes to buy a gun. Currently (some states have more stringent restrictions) you have to fill out two separate forms, attest to the fact that you are not a felon or for any other reason not barred from owning a gun, submit to a background check and only then can you actually walk out with a firearm. I recently moved to Texas, which means that my Indiana carry permit is not recognized here. I have to wait six months after establishing a residency before I can even apply for a concealed carry permit. In order to even apply I have to take a class, pass the qualification course and of course submit to yet another background check.
Disclaimer: Don't actually try this next idea.
Walk into a gun shop and tell the one of the employees that you'd like to buy a gun, but then let on that you're a felon or for some other reason not allowed to own a firearm. Watch how quickly they will decline to sell you anything. Some might even throw you out the door on your ass.
Of course it would be wonderful to discover the cause of crime and a magic quick-fix as well. But in the meantime, I prefer to have the means at hand to provide for my own protection rather than depend on a potentially slow or non-existent police response.
Don't be an Asshole(TM).
No surge protector will protect my surge. - Commodore64
A school system responding not to the actual issue, that of school bullies, but in a knee-jerk hyper-paranoid manner.
*sigh*
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
And of course, my mother would have come into school and caused all sorts of trouble. Then it would be, "Brian's a geek... and he has to have his parents to take care of him... ha ha ha." No f***ing way. No self respecting kid is going to invite more harassment by pussying out (unless he really is a pussy, which is VERY rare in reality).
That doesn't mean my parents weren't good parents, there's just no good solution. If I had invited my parents to protect me (which would have required a parent to escort me to the bus stop, the bus driver (who I'm still friends with to this day) to protect me en route, and an administrator following me from class to class) it wouldn't have stopped the taunting or helped me making friends -- I would have been physically safe, but even more depressed.
I stood up for myself, learned to disguise myself (I lettered two varsity sports in high school), and eventually, most of the bullies found easier targets. But not until after I'd spent a great deal of time in trouble in the principle's office in middle school.
Take your pick, but most bullied kids aren't going to have their parents duke it out until there is NO other option.
--brian
It reminds me of a story an old english teacher told me.
I graduated from college and went back to High School to visit my favorite teachers..
After inquiring how school was she proceeded to tell me that things were awful and that things had gone downhill. There was the usual, "kids have no respect for teachers anymore" retoric but what caught me was that she said there was a group / gang of goth type ladies that basically terrorized the kids in the halls, etc.
In short she said that when the school approached the girls to repremand them they got all emotional and the parents were brought in and they cried discrimination becuase of looks....
From then on the same girls could get away with anything.
Yes I know, a little off the subject but it just reminded me of it and also reminds me that when I was in school, I remember bullies always getting away with things that I would have been tossed out or sent home for....
Possibly its just expected for them to act that way, therefore it's tolerated.
Linuxrunner
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
It's no diferent here in Canada. I was being bullied quite a bit in junior high, but it was pre-columbine so the retaliatory things I said and did weren't concerning to the administration. In fact, despite my constant complaints to the principal about how I was being treated, nothing was ever done. People started picking fights with me in the hallways, and the administration turned a blind eye. Rumor has it that the principal even deleted their permanent records at the beginning of each school year to give them a "fresh start." I ended up having to change schools, twice, to get away from the whole bullying thing. I was homeschooled for half a year, but in all honesty that really sucks. I was bored out of my mind, and I never did any work. So I changed schools again (this is time #3) to an experimental alternative school put on by a rather ingenious physics teacher who my mom knew. The alternative teaching method really works well, since I went from being a student who gets C's and B's to an A student with honours. The only downside is that there isn't much of a social aspect to the school (no yearbook, sports teams, etc) so I've rounded up a bunch of people I've met there and started a troop of Venturer Scouts. It's a shame I only have one year left before I move away for college... we have lots of fun.
Agree. Completely. And I never really understood why until recently. I think I got it figured out: Handling a gun, due to the danger involved and the sheer violence of every shot, is something that requires complete concentration for every second that the firearm is in your hands. It takes your mind offf of whatever else was bothering you. In fact, today, after compiling some code I was working on for a while, and coming up 68 instructions over my limit (only 1k instruction space), I took a few hours off and went to the range. By getting the project completely off my mind for two hours (and burning $50 on .357 ammo, maybe I should expense it :) I was able to go back to work with a whole new look on things and get the code to fit.
Tim
If I were Sean I wouldn't want to go back to the school anyway. I mean why would I want to go back to a place that deals with retaliation problems rather than the real issue. If Sean had been left alone and not 'driven' into such comments, this whole thing wouldn't have happened.
The School......Have they not looked at Sean's record? Are they that ignorant? Here's a kid that sounds intelligent, has never been in trouble before (in or out of school) and out of the blue something drives him towards making threatening statements. Do flags not raise at this moment? Why were no other students questioned? Don't get me wrong, the comment was extremely stupid (especially because of recent school shootings) but the punishment should fit the crime.
Lets be preventative instead of reactive.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
> Having been in both homeschool and public school,
;)
> my opinion is that the quality of education you get from
> homeschooling is superior to public education. You get
> the personal attention you need, whereas in a public
> school the teacher's attention is split bettween 30 or more
> students. Not to mention you don't have all the classroom
> clowns trying to ruin everyone else's learning experience.
Two grammatical errors and a typo in three sentences, and you say your education was superior?!?
But seriously, the point I want to make is that being one of the class clowns, we (as a group) don't usually try to ruin the class learning experience, although we sometimes do. It was usually a result of the sort of things that you claim (rightly so) are advantages of homeschooling, like an individualized learning pace. That said, homeschooling can work for just about every child, but you should not forget that homeschooling sometimes does not work for every parent. There are some people that are good at teaching, and some that aren't, and having learned from both, I can say that having a bad teacher (even one with the best intentions and sincere effort) can be a real impediment. It's a point to consider when you're trying to make the decision.
Virg
It always amazes me in discussions like this that people say, "it's the kid's fault!" or, "it's the parent's fault!" and none of you seems to consider that it might be the bully's fault.
Ponder on that for a while.
Virg
Unfortunately, that would be prohibited by the schools dress code.
But seriously, look at that dress code! Is this a private school? Prohibiting "Clothing, including tee shirts, which displays music groups, sex, violence, drugs, tobacco, alcohol, death, gang or hate slogans or pictures"? I can see most of those things, but music groups?! Or prohibiting "Non-natural colored hair (green, blue, purple, orange, cherry-red, etc.)" and "Hairstyles that are disruptive (head and facial)"? There is abosultely no way the first can be considered threatening in any way, and the second should be struck down for vagueness.
I wonder if Sean realizes that he will get his true revenge when he becomes an adult. I (like most other geeks here) had a childhood similar to Sean. I finally realized that all of the teasing and crap that I put up with was worth it when I found out that these same bullies in high school (that were worshiped by teachers and idolized by most other students) turned out to be total losers as adults. One was in jail for rape, the other two never finished college (thrown out or flunked out) and were working for minimum wage. I on the other hand recently finished my masters and now make more money in a month than those losers make all year. I almost went to my ten year reunion just to tell off a few "guidance counselors"; you know the ones who told you that you would never amount to anything because "you spend too much time on the computer".
High school in the USA is a pathetic joke. I hated it when I was a kid and couldn't wait to get out. The best advice I can give is just ignore the morons, get the hell out of Texas, and put everything you have into finishing college. When you're an adult you WILL have the last laugh!
If a kid went home every day and got picked on, insulted and physically beat, they'd have the local Child Protection Services beating down your door. But when a kid is openly harassed in a school environment, it's generic kid stuff. Hell, it's encouraged. Is someone going to suggest that the administration doesn't know that cliques exist, often whose only visible function is to torment other kids and make their life hellish? I have to think that Columbine had at least something positive come out of it; kids realize that it's not inconceivable for their asses to get shot up if they really make someone's life hell. Did those two kids go to far? Obviously. But I've never heard word-one about what you'd have to do to a person to make them willing to plan the destruction of an entire school, most of the people in it -- themselves included. How much do you have to hate life to think that??
How do you suppose they got that way?
I've been to about ...perhaps a dozen schools. Five of them during my High School years. Only one (Warwick Vets, Rhode Island) ever had an environment and an administration that didn't encourage that sort of thing. Bishop Stang in Massachusetts was possibly the worst. If you're not a jock or attractive, you're a piece of sh*t. And if you are, who you are as a person is irrelevant, you're in.
I just shake my head when I hear about stuff like this and 100% of it being dumped on the kid's shoulders. Could he have used better language? Sure. But his language is a symptom, not the disease itself. Expelling him is like trying to cure pneumonia with a cough drop. It's the administration's attitude that will ultimately get someone killed.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
"Why the fuck are kids such god damn pussies today that they can't take a little pushing around?"
It's because society now coddles its children far too much, and Darwinism is no longer in effect. Far fewer kids, if any, die from falling off monkeybars or other playground implements nowadays because they have eight inches of rubber padding on the ground under them. We can't buy lawn darts anymore. Kids aren't allowed to ride a bike or skateboard without a helmet. The warnings about itty bitty pieces of peanut in a granola bar are larger than the surgeon general's warning on a pack of smokes, because these wussies are allergic. You have to go 15mph in a school zone, lest some stupid kid run out in front of your car and get killed.
These children that were previously destined to die very young are now allowed to age to the point where they can get the bright idea of taking their daddy's Glock to school to settle the score with that bully that's been picking on them.
And then, after Junior busts a couple caps in study hall and the bodies are carted out, oh, it's time to bring in three busloads of grief counselors for the sniveling brats. People die, shitheads! It happens every day! Get over it! I found both of my parents dead, did I need a grief counselor either time? No! These little bitch-asses are growing up soft, and I hope I die before they are old enough to be running this country.
~Philly
want my take?
trust me on this one. i think the problem lies in the media pressure to 'make' our schools safe. you know how we do that? get rid of the media. as i see it, its like airplane crashes: its the safest way to travel, but the media jumps on it because it only happens once or twice every year. schools are safe, we have our grade nutso, but he is fine.
the media gets all over it cause its a disaster (?) this kid is totally right. people piss other people off to see them get mad and to 'be cool'. he was just acting on instinct, you know, survival of the fittest.
the school prinicipal was using no common sense when he made the decision. if he only used a little common sense to see what the hell these kids were doing to him, then it would be justified. and slap those suckers with a week of suspension.
although i do have to admit, he does fit the 'profile': introvert, not very social, bad with people, close group of tightly knit friends. it is a moral question, suspend and lose a kid, or put up with it and hope that he doesnt actually act on his words.
haha. whats a slashdot? reminds me of an unnamed cable company *cough* comcast *cough*. i asked the local office about beta testing in the area. "whats beta?" <click>
This type of thing will never stop happening until we recognize, as a society, that our children are not second class citizens. Why is it that you only become deserving of constitutional protections (and responsibilities) when you are out of high school (or even college, if you go)?
Someone needs to take this type of thing to court. Maybe it will require the supreme court before anything happens. Yes, it will raise some difficult questions as to the rights of adults opposed to children (also a parent's rights), but those need to be answered.
Why is there so much anger in children of this age? I don't have a complete answer, but I feel very strongly that this has something to do with it.
I don't know if this is the right case for the court test-case, and I don't know if the father here is prepared for the fight, or the consequences involved. But until this happens, this type of CYA behavior from school systems will continue. Not only this type of crap, but the book banning, the student publication censorship, etc.
I just don't see why our society wants to treat children like shit, and then expect them to behave like a normal citizen, when we don't teach them to be by our actions.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
Patrick has two things to consider: Sean and the school's actions.
Sean is probably better off being homeschooled and would have been better served by getting him out of the public school system before now. As far as his record goes, it probably won't matter much: on applications and resume, say that he was in public school until his junior year and was then homeschooled. If you're concerned about having a GED instead of a diploma, check out the Clonlara School Home Based Education Program and you can get a real high school diploma by following their guidelines. They're at www.clonlara.org if you're interested (and if you're new to homeschooling and want some structure, curriculum, textbooks and teachers available to you they're worth the fees.)
However, that leaves the matter of the jerks who have gotten away with something bad. School administrators fear two things: bad publicity and lawsuits. Whether you want to use either or both against them depends on how much of your life you want to devote to fighting the jerks and whether you can get help with funding the latter. I'd go after them in a heartbeat, but I haven't been in Patrick's shoes so I won't presume to tell him what he should do.
This sound too much like 'it's not the gun which kills but the person who uses it'. America has a very sick relationship to guns, and calling it a tool is just perverse ! According to www.dumblaws.com some counties REQUIRE every family to have at least one gun. This is only possible in America, while in the rest of the world you need special training and licenses to buy a gun. Lucky me living in Europe, I'm just waiting for the cyberpunk come true :-) Happy slaughtering, America
What ever happened to freedom of speech? Even if he or others that have been facing the same persecution had made remarks. Remarks don't mean anything. What ever happened to 'Stick and Stones will break my bones, but WORDS will never hurt me.'? When is society going to figure out that when people are put into a pressure cooker, like being ridiculed, taunted, teased, the tend to blow up. Any prudent person would do the same under these circumstances. This is almost a role reversal in some ways.. You have the jocks and popular kids moving towards femininity and the geeks and nerds (which I am proudly a part of!) are moving more towards what in the past has been defined as masculinity. Why are the kids that made the taunts and remarks suspended also? Weren't those threats? I remember being on the other end of these remarks and taunts and they seemed like threats to me.. Ranting done. Slmcav
I recently had a similar experience. My 12 year old daughter found her self besieged by a group of boys who were trying in a repeated and orchestrated manner to provoke her into anger. She said aloud "Why am I wishing I had a gun right now?". Needless to say I was summarily called to school and was diciplined by the vice principal. It also goes without saying that the real culprits in this incident went unpunished and were even lauded for their act of reporting my daughter's statement.
After I was done re-educating my daughter on the current state of our national problem with overreacting to "violent speech", I started to think more about the source of the problem.
I came to the conclusion that the school staff is no longer able to dicipline the bullies due to a gutting of their "en loco parentus" status, and that the students can no longer look to the school staff for protection from other students.
I have set the following guidelines for my daughter and have told her I will fully support her actions should she need to resort to them:
1. She has the RIGHT to an education and EXPECTATION of it being delivered in a violence and harrasment free setting.
2. Upon threat of violence or interpersonal harrasment from another student, she is to immediately inform the nearest staff member and request, in these words, that "The situation be dealt with immediately."
3. If the staff member does not respond in any meaningful way, she has been instructed to proceed to the nearest phone and call me. I will determine if the situation warrants a phone call to the local Police Department. If I am unavailable, she is to call the Police directly in cases where "she fears for her personal safety and physical well being". If being harrassed, she is not NOT to return to class until the REAL offender is dealt with.
The school has their Zero-tollerance policies, and now we have ours.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
My wife is a teacher , and honestly , most of the administration hate her .. she is smart, and attractive - and doesn't put up with their power-pushing, totlatarian tactics. .. a DAMN good teacher, she teaches in a HORRIBLE school .. her classroom is missing the glass out of several windows.. yet the school building is probally in better shape than the homes these kids come from. .. he was a christian bible thumper who wanted to bring religion BACK into school .. and at one point hinted STRONGLY that my wife (who is pagan) had better make sure she didn't have any 'pentagrams' on her or she would get fired. .. who has had tenure for 3 years LESS than my wife, is of the same mindset - and (THE WOMAN IS 40 YEARS OLD) spends a lot of time spreading roumours about my wife to other teachers and staff. .. well .. maybe you guys are beginning to see my point.
she is also
the principal is truely an underachiever (i have met him
her head of the department
When you have a staff that is as bad as the students
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
I'll keep it short, since time is $, and karma is not. Claim that your son's rights are being compromised.
and it only gets worse by the time you reach college.
Jon, you and your ilk brought it on. Constantly telling people they don't have to take responsibility for their actions, glorifying in the media these wackos that act out their frustrations, and then finally removing any respect people have for the institutions for ridiculing them for the actions they are forced to take.
In this case, the kid's dad should have taken up the subject of his kid being bullied with the school administrators beforehand. But alas, its not his fault in your world is it? He doesn't have to be a real father does he? He doesn't have to explain to his kid how to deal with life's mysteries and what to do when they get out of hand? He probably should not warn his kid about drugs either right?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
People aren't paying taxes to have their kids educated. They are being held at gunpoint and having the money taken from them. If they have kids then they are allowed (some areas its required - they actually dug up dirt on one avowed home schooler and threw her in jail for keeping her kid out of public schools) to go to the public school provided you have no choice in what they learn and what happens to them.
They should provide vouchers to all students... and vouchers that if the PS does not improve shuts them down
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
During the second presidential debate Governer Bush proclaimed that 'a child could turn to the Internet and have their heart turn dark'. During the third debate Gore spoke of the 'battle' between popular culture and parenting, and of the need for federal regulation to help parents 'win'.
Many people think I am a sarcastic asshole. I do not pay attention to warning labels on music. I wept not only for the victims of the massacre at Columbine, but also for the persecution that followed, and the resulting paranoia of people like the Trenchcoat Mafia. I enjoy reading the Onion (http://www.theonion.com). I am not one of 'the right people', whoever they are. I feel that my way of life is threatened. I feel that Al Gore wants to ban MAD Magazine. I am scared when Bush claims 'there should be limits to freedom' in response to a website parody tilted against him.
I want these politicians to know that I am not a grumkin hiding in a sewer or a dark alley, ready to pop out and sing some Tom Lehrer songs to innocent, impressionable youths (I don't like sewers that much). I am not the enemy, and I am not an insurance liability. _We_ are good people, and _we_ will not be silenced or legislated against, or used as a debating "straw man" to symbolize something that is wrong with America. In fact, I strongly believe that America without people like us would be a bland and boring place.
I've printed up a whole bunch of little buttons with dark hearts on them, a la pink triangle. If you agree with my views, or even if you think I'm a total whiner who should move to Canada anyhow, I would be honored to have you wear a Dark Heart button.
Yeah, I know this is a little old, but it's worth repeating. Anyway, you want 5 buttons, I'll mail them to you, anywhere, for free. And I promise to destroy your address afterwards. Send your address to ohako79@hotmail.com
I understand what he is going through in being made fun of etc. My friends and I were made fun of, taunted and generally laughed at through Junior High. I went to a private school for High School so it did not apply there. But going through school and being made fun of because youre, smart and different sucks. There were many times I thought about how to win. No matter what I did or didnt do it was always the same, some punk ass jock showing off to his friends. They always traveled in groups too, which sucked because I would have loved to find one by himself.
Junior High sucked sucked shit. I left private school for my senior year and went to the local high school. By that time people stopped making fun becuase I was 6' and 180 lbs. I still was not accepted but at least they left me alone which is all good. I truly feel for the kids going through all that shit these days.
My advice is as follows...hang in there, it gets better. By the time you're in college it should stop. Thats it, I know it sucks and there is no reason why people should go through that sort of thing. You can take satisfaction in the fact that the people who make fun of you will one day be parking your car at a Valet restaurant. Then the tide will turn.
Arathres
I love my iBook. I use it to run Linux!
stainless steel
Mostly I suspect that we are all just venting frustration from when we were bullied as kids...
BUT IT'S FUN!!
In most areas the schoolboard and county/local gvt are seperate. But your representitive in county/city govt, as well as the member of the school board who represents the area you live in should be getting an earful from you right now. I would begin with a phone call, and during that call request a face to face meeting with your elected representatives. School systems also recieve funding from the state and federal govts, so I would be inclined to walk up those chains too.
If you do end up home schooling i would look into the possibility of attempting to get reimbursement of school district taxes. There may be some programs in your location that provide for this.
Though it seems strangly familiar.....
I'm homeschooled now. Though from Kindergarden to Grade 6 I was in School. Anyway, I was always tormented for being smart/a geek, mention your nice new 386, and the kids just stare at you in like Grade 1 or something.... Though mention Perl in Grade 7 and your likely to get tormented for a month. (Though I wouldn't have found out about Linux and such if I wern't homeschooled.)
It's horriffic the way kids teach Smart kids, and the way they manage to get the kids they pick on for merley saying "Just leave me alone!". And if you ever try to tell on them they just will torment you some more.
Anyway, now I'm just dreading going back to school for highschool, I (honestly) can't mention Linux or Slashdot to the wrong person...
--Volrath50
No news links. No real detailed info. Just anecdote. Nice story and I'm sure stuff like this occurs, but I'll wait for the real thing, thanks.
Is a pity that high school is not a learning place but a social life place. Is not about learning, it is about being popular. And the system will support you if you a re a bully, air-headed, xenophobic guy if you are a popular person. I just hope Sean can go to a school were he's talents are encouraged. He'll be a great geek. Just don't let him get into the drugs they are giving children with "learning disorders"
Maybe the solution to reducing bullying and harrassment it to figure out why out why most (of course, not all) of this behavior is gone by the time individuals enter "adult" life.
Could it be because the majority of associations between adults are voluntary? Adults aren't quite herded into buildings with people they don't know, don't want to know, and don't like quite as often as kids are.
Could it be that adults aren't shielded from the consequences of their shitty behavior any where near as often as kids are?
The only thing that we learn from history is that nobody learns anything from history.
this just makes me too angry to respond, rest assured i'll be calling the phone numbers and hammering them with emails. this is just too sad.
Photos.
I don't want to belittle the deaths or injuries of anyone, but the hype surrounding the school shootings, and the extreme reactions, are in some ways way out of line. I called my public library's reference desk (and if you haven't memorized the number, I recommend that you do so). According to statistics published for the 1997/1998 school year, there were 21,682 high schools and 14,754,000 high school students. I don't have available here the number of school shootings, but it would have to be 216 to have occurred for even 1% of high schools. And there would have to be 147,540 shooters for it to be even 1% of the students, and we know it is a much much smaller number than that! I think, therefore, that reactions such as in Sean's case are unjustified. If they don't want him to say things like that, why don't they just tell him? I personally believe his First Amendment rights allow him to say it, but the courts lately seem to feel that schools can exist as sort of a "limited dictatorship" in which your rights are suspended, so I'm not going to argue that point; I just think that transferring him as the FIRST action is extreme.
In Australia, we all like to point and laugh and the major short-comings of the United States, like, ummm, George Bush's decision not to follow the international convention regarding fuel emisions because it will hurt the American Economy. The USA emits approximately 30% of the worlds fuel emissions, and Australia a mere 1.5%.
Well if anything, this violates your first ammendment (from what I can remember from damn commercial television *smile*). Freedom of speech?
Two interesting articles to add to discussion. Is there a 'gun problem' in America? Firearm Injuries and Deaths Down Do Guns Save Lives?
There is shared blame in all parties here concerning the welfare of Sean...and there's going to be a lot of finger pointing too.
But almost every time something like this happens, it's passed along many hands because no one wants to take the time or responsibility. Bring in a quote about a gun (a desperate response evoked by his tormentors) or something, then everyone wants to be a hero and set the record straight by punishing the very person...the victim...rather then DEALING WITH IT.
Instead of sending Sean to an alt. school, the school should have contacted the bullies parents and suspension or explusion could have been considered too. As for Sean, the school should take in account that he was harassed for a year and that councelling or therapy would be offered if he was depressed or if it affected his school work.
Where was the school staff and parents of these kids anyway? These "educators" are around these kids day in and day out.
A years worth of bullying and harrasment? Someone could have dones something about it...usually it's too late when they do. In extreme cases, such as Reena Virk (a case from B.C.) being bullied can lead to death...
This happens everyday...sadly enough, this inncident happened in a institute of learning...a place where dreams are made...not nightmares.
I'm afraid that mediocrity will be the standard in our schools for a long time to come. It's deplorable, but it's true. Kids who "don't fit the mold" in whatever sense (gifted, physically challenged, "foreign") cause trouble. They force the adults in charge to think, to use their creativity, to respond. Far easier when you're just drawing a paycheck, to focus on the herd at the expense of the troublemakers. And this includes a certain tolerance for bullying.
Our solution to all of this when our boys were younger was to put them in a small private school. In our case, the school was Catholic. Whatever anybody may have to say about Catholic schools in general, at this school the individual kid was respected, parental involvement was more than a spiel, and there was zero tolerance for bullying in any form.
You might look around to see if a similar school is available in your community. The drawback can be the expense, but there are scholarships around, especially for youngsters as talented and bright as Sean seems to be. Failing that, I think you're smart to home-school him. I suspect he's formed his own friendships and associations independent of the school-herd, so socializing shouldn't be an issue.
Above all, console yourselves. In a very few years you'll be rewarded. You'll have an intelligent, capable, mature young man who has a head start in the adult world. So just dig in and hang on.
Annie
(Incidentally, today's news also brings word of the suspension from school of a thirteen-year-old deaf student in New Jersey. Her "crime" was using Sign Language on the schoolbus...)
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
I was booted out of public school for writing a speech on the effects of computers, capitalism and american pop culture. They did not appreciate the comparisons I made. I learned that in a middle class suburban school, they did not apprecaite the use of such words as 'Money Hungry Nihilists', 'Indian Slaughtering Fathers'. My parents then put me in home school. I finished High School at my own pace, and actually *gasp* learned the material. Since then I have attended college, and now I am a slave, just like the people I wrote about. But at least I know where my mind is..
I am gonna get modded down for saying this, but I don't care.
This kid's dad is to blame for this! He should be smart enough to realize that public schools are a bureaucracy, and as such, run on rails. With all of the recent school violence, the parent should make it clear to his kid that if he makes some stupid threat, he is going to get kicked out of school!
Furthermore, he should be able to talk to his kid about abuse and bullying at school! Obviously, this kid feels the need for revenge (if he talked to his parents about his feelings and the situation, he would realize that revenge is worthless).
Call me old-fashioned, but I am a big fan of strong families and good parenting! I feel sorry for the kid, but, lesson learned.....
"Chill, Orrin!"---Trent Lott
I can understand why the schools are running scared in the states lately, but such over the top reactions just don't help, especially as it will put a feeling of power in the hands of The Bullies - 'Wow, we got this nerd kicked out as a lunatic!' - reinforcing their behaviour. I guess the school won't have a full investigation into the causes either....
You're right, it does put a sense of power in the hands of the bullies. And it lets the administrators go about with smug expressions on their faces thinking that they averted another Columbine. And these things will continue to happen until such time as these people realize that:
1. Bullying does not give you power
2. Expelling someone who got bullied does not avert a Columbine style shooting.
So, all things considered, I think that this problem requires a Texas-style soltion:
My Modest Proposal is that the expelled student acquire several guns and perhaps some dynamite. This should be pretty easy since it's Texas, after all. Then go back to the school from which he was expelled and hunt down the bullies and the administrators who expelled him and shoot them. Multiple times if necessary. Throw dynamite sticks at anyone who gets in the way. Maybe blow up a few cars.
This solution, and only this solution, will be able to prove that the mistaken beliefs labelled 1 and 2 are not valid.
Or if you want something that is equally fun but less dangerous and not illegal, your son could call up each of the bullies on the phone. When they pick up, he should explain to each of them very calmly, politely, and firmly that he didn't appreciate being expelled from school because of their bullying. Make sure that they understand that he holds that group of bullies solely respnsible for his explusion, and have him explain that he fully expects each of them to go to the school administrators and to confess their part in the problem.
Don't threaten them. Just explain to them calmly, rationally, and firmly (maybe in a deadpan monotone) that you feel that would be the responsible thing for them to do.
If he does it right it won't be bullying or harrassment or intimidation or anything. It's just him explaining his side to the bullies. Of course, IANAL.
Sounds like an ideal civil rights case to me.
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
I agree that the actions the school took were a bit extreme, but you can understand why they reacted that way. Given the number of high school shootings that have taken place in America or anywhere (and I don't know how many there have been, but one is way too many, don't you agree?) they should react very carefully. It was definitely a knee-jerk reaction, but what would they have done if there was a real threat by someone to bring a gun to their school?
I'm not saying that the schools reaction was right, they really needed to look into the matter more before reacting so harshly, I just want to know if people can appreciate the emotion behind the response.
There were news reports of a student down here in Australia who was expelled from their high school after students read his diary (I don't know why) and found thoughts about how a shooting would be interesting, or something similar. I'm not sure of the details, but there was a huge complaint over the politicians reports and the schools actions. Anybody got some information about that?
Why yes, all my base are belong to you.
How did you guess?
My three biggest gripes about public school: It starts too early, half the required classes are crap, and the admin staff (and some teachers) tend to have a crab up their ass and/or an inflatable skull. And if we complain about something they're doing wrong, nobody ever listens. It's like their motto is The student is never right.
The would could use a good school clue-ing...
(Do not sign anything.) -- Fell, Planescape: Torment
Go to college, get a job, and spend a couple years outside of high school. You'll quickly come to the realization that high school is not for learning curriculum-based concepts. It's about growing as a person.
One of the hardest parts of high school is the interaction with your peers. You know why that's probably the most important part?
Because you have to do it outside of high school, too.
Welcome to the real world, people. Sometimes you get picked on for no reason. I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Poor litle guy was picked on by his peers. Find me one person, in any high school, anywhere, who wasn't picked on at one time or another. Additionally, I find it extremely difficult to believe, even in the current state of schools, that the comment was the only reason that this guy was expelled. Congratulations to the father for pulling him out of the school and successfully side-stepping the problem instead of dealing with it.
When I was in high school, I got a fair amount of ribbing due to my geeky tendencies.
I was a gamer, too, but back then, a gamer meant something different. It meant I got together with 4-5 of my buds, and played AD&D, Traveller and Car Wars together.
So, our gaming dealt with healthy peer interactions, a group of people working together to overcome a hostile dungeon, triumph through a patron's mission, or deal with a dangerous motorcycle gang. WE learned the value of people and co-operation.
Contrast this with today's gamer, who learns little more than the value of a head shot in a first person shooter.
Also, I had a peer group, these friends I would see 5-7 times a week.We played RPG's, and we talked about life, and how much better life would get after high school.
Contrast this with today's gamers, who may join a Quake team, yet only see their teammates in person twice a year. Alienating indeed.
Have you ever been bullied? If so, I doubt you would make that statement.
I have been bullied. When I was in junior and high school I was constantly tormented, jabbed, assaulted and abused by bullies. And then I would be the one that got punished, while the bullies got away with it. (At the time I thought it was just my school that sucked, but this article proves otherwise.)
There were times when I wished I could really have hurt the people that hurt me so bad, physically and mentally. Not just the bullies, either, but the "grownups" who did nothing to punish them. You, apparently, have never been pushed that far. But if you push anyone far enough they'll snap. The knowledge that you are a better person than your bullies is little comfort while they insult everything you hold dear and kick your teeth in.
Fortunately, some time at the shrink's has helped me to deal with that. But the fact that this sort of behaviour is allowed to continue is galling. Why, after so many years, are bullies still allowed to torment other students and get away with it, while those students who try to defend themselves or (heaven forbid) fight back are locked away? That the victims will become psychologically maladjusted is a self-fulfilling prophecy, when you punish them instead of the bullies.
Heck, just look at me.
SIG: 11
You know, stories like this piss me off...
Another example of how American schools suck ass. Sure, let the geek suffer, but let the jocks get away with bloody murder. I've said it many times here, priortize intelligence in schools and not althetics. Schools are so Hitleresque when it comes to imposing sport culutre on students, giving stars the status of gods, although they'll be nothing later in life...most of them..
While the computer geek gets shit on by the students and adminstration.
I swear, if I hear some jock whining of how he got picked on....
That is horse shit
Jocks don't deal with the fucking shit that geeks do..the scale and cruelty of the bullying, its beyond anything a jock can imagine, because if it occured, they would get their own together and use their muscle.
Of course, we aren't that much endowed with muscle matter as they, nor do we have as much social power in school, but we have one thing that can do much more than their muscles ever could
Our computers
Note, some people, are too dumb to use anything but AOL.
Kudos to this kid's parents for not submitting to the schools, he'll be much better off than if he stayed in that prision they call public school
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
Pay the dues? Let them win? No fucking way. Are you on crack? If you give up, they win! You conform and sell out to the nazis!
Lawsuits, thats all, lawsuits, if what happened to you is true, you can file a lawsuit.
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
Oh shut up, you are the prime example of whats wrong. *you* are the reason why we cry and go home wondering why. Don't come here and get our symphamphy, because you'll get shit
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n112100b.html A link to a similar Story about a school administration supposedly "totally failed to distinguish between a student who is a danger and a student who is different, extremely bright and imaginative,". Perhaps you could get them to helpl you take the case on Pro-bono?
If there's a castle floating upside down in the sky, then there's a castle floating upside down in the sky.
Here's A link to the ACLU's Student Rights Page.
If there's a castle floating upside down in the sky, then there's a castle floating upside down in the sky.
http://bitch.shutdown.com/don't_hurt_me.html
Its more about the kids that actually do shoot, but still not bad.
> Stop hiding behind your computer. Throwing
> epithets through pseudo-anonymous electronic
> communication is pointless.
Especially since it's obvious that this administration can't read ... instead, you'll need to communicate in person.
*ook!* *ook!* *eek!* [scratching gestures] *ook!*
All I ask is a warm bed, a kind word, and UNLIMITED POWER
You're all jumping to defend this young man, after hearing the story from his side. Are any of you taking into thought what it would be like if you were on the other side of something like that. Say your kid came home and told you "Sean, this boy in my class, said blah blah blah today... (add in the loose translation and misinterpretation) that usually accompanies one repeating something someone else said) Turn the story around ... IF Sean later came and shot up the school, EVERYONE would look back to this day and say "Why wasn't something done at this time??" No body would care about the bullies, or feel sorry for the kid who reacted, they would wonder why the SCHOOL didn't do something about this potential problem at the time that it happened ?
Why didn't Sean say something to a teacher or school staff ? Yeh, I've heard the "don't want to be a tattletale" skit, but school officials can react in ways that don't involve them telling the bullies that Sean complained, give them that much credit.
Being a new father myself, and yet still young enough to remember what HS was like (including my year stint at Alternative), I'd have to take a different look at this and say that that the school, while acting swiftly and heavily and appearing to have pushed this too far, did the right thing in eliminating the problem. Who's the school to judge that "this student is bad and should be sent to alternative", or judge "this student did a BAD THING and should be scorned and sent back into regular school" ? Would you want your kids in there when they make the wrong decision ? We're not talking about someone's feelings getting hurt, or someone spending a year in alternative education, we're talking the potential loss of children's lives, and it's not something that should be judged litely.
Sean may be a bright kid, intellegent, and leaps and bounds beyond the mentality of his peers, but he made the mistake of saying what he did. Surely they're not moving him to alternative education for the rest of his high school years.. Its probably a one year stint where he can be watched in the controlled settings of an alternative school.
If my daughter overheard a classmate say the same thing Sean said, *I* would have been at the school demanding something be done about it. Especially in light of the recent slew of School shootings. I don't know this kid from Tom, Dick, or Harry, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to take the risk with my daughter's life on the thought that "he's just a smart, intelligent and misunderstood" individual.
So... To Sean : You said what you said, and while you may know that you're not capable of commiting those acts, and your parents and friends may know that your not capable of what you said, hundreds (thousands ?) of other parents who's kids attend your school do NOT know that. This isn't the school being out for you, this is protecting the other students from a *potential* threat. Next time, atleast attempt to handle the bullies through the system. Then when you "snap" on their level (repeat the actions and statements you did, not pull a real gun), there's recourse in the fact that you tried to seek help.
Mike
Snooze and you lose your sushi.
So, what have we learned here?
1) If you hate a kid because he is different, say he claimed to want to kill you. He will be expelled and nobody will check your facts. Apparently, you can shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
2) If people beat on you, do and say nothing. Accept their abuse. If you try to stop them, you will be expelled.
3) If you want to be liked, do what everybody else likes. Difference is okay, but be different in a way that's respected.
4) Schools are full of people who want what's best for the people who are most like them. Students who need help passing through social situations are to be removed at all costs.
Oh, and the school's web page is here. You can email the administrators and let them know how you feel.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
But, perhaps next time you could place this article in the right category. I mean, come on, the United States? I go to high school in the United States. My teacher and several fellow classmates can't take the twenty odd seconds out of their day to look at the American flag and pay their respects to the millions that served so they could live a better life. You guys expect these same people to have the decency to respect the so called "rights" of this kid? Really, now: Is this even /. worthy? Wake up and smell the obvious.
*end sarcasm*
Sad thing is, if you actually gave kids like these and their not so friendly pupils each a pistol and told them to duel, the victims would in most cases probably pull Alexander Hamiltons and shoot straight up in the air. Hey, another good, hard-working person dead and the idiot who was supposed to run things runs away... wait, no nevermind: now they get to stay in school.
"High school sucks." - You, me, everybody and their brother, too.
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:04:21 -0500
From: "David Anthony"
Reply-to: danthony@mckinneyisd.net
Subject: Re: Sean Sheeley
Due to federal law, FERPA, I cannot discuss the facts regarding this issue.
If nobody ever re-invented the wheel, we'd all be pushing around flintstones cars, wouldn't we?
Educational systems out here in the US are slowly turning into a battle zone, so there's little wonder why words were taken so harsh, take for example this "infant" who was suspend for horseplaying with a paper gun.
IMHO little is being done to educate kids by way of showing them the dangers of their actions, suspension is not the key, as there are many students who love the idea of being suspended and not having to go to school. Instead of taking them away, more should be done, to show them what dangers weapons possess, the psychological dangers of being bullied, and bullying someone else. This sense of going to school as if it were a fashion show or sorts seems to also be a problem when it comes to teens. School is the foundation for learning, in order to get ahead in life, sure friends are great, but friends won't be around to pay the bills in the long run. The system is not there to cater to the needs of a teenager who's idea of school is a social club, it's there to teach, not to satisfy the personal needs of an individual.
Sure one can empathize with the feelings of the teen when its stated that officials are appealing to the recent tightening of rules from pressure, but can you blame the parents? You can take away one bad apple before he snaps and save your children, or you could wait until the ticking timebomb explodes... Personally I would want my kid safe. Doing this would possibly cause more harm than it would help. What should be done is, parents of both the kids should get together along with the kids to work out the differences. Parents who leave the system to "raise" their children as well as teach them, are just as much to blame as the kids are.
This surely can be attributed to parents who have little time to spend with their kids for whatever reason, work, stress, etc. More should come out of the parents of these kids, instead of the parents using the system as a scapegoat.
psychologisticallyafied
360 degrees of Karma
I think if you asked most kids today what they though about their public school, they would say they hate their classes and they don't have many friends. I was lucky enough to be sent to a very good private school growing up, and I can tell you that of all the people I know, I actually enjoyed high school more than college. College was a great time, but my best friends are still the ones I made in high school. Today's public education flat out sucks, and I don't blame Sean for being unhappy with where he was at. I offer up a 'good job!' and a 'good luck!' to his parents for deciding to home school him now as that is probably the best alternative. I have many cousins who are or were home-schooled, stayed active in extra-curricular activities, and are some of the more popular 'kids' now that they're away from home. Remember that public schools don't usually breed the 'cream of the crop' intelligence wise, so if Sean can find extra-curricular activities outside of the public school/sports arena, I'm sure he'll be much better off.
When I was in middel/high school I went through
the same thing as many people here probably did.
I was made fun of for "being nerd" and wearing
a trench coat, or having long hair.
I wore a trench coat most days of the year
althrough middel school. I'm sure if you tried
this now you would automatically be searched
for weapons.
A few things happened. the daily insults and
jokes. I was victim to a few run-by head punches.
Tripped and pushed around in the hall ways.
Someone even poured lotion in my hair while
I was bent down reaching in my locker. One
friend of mine (probably the only one there)
was beaten up so badly that he never came back.
All of these things happened, but did we shoot
anyone? No. The "redneck" kid who teased everyone,
he was the one who was found with a gun one day.
Apparently just showing off... But I don't think
nerds are the ones they should be looking at, not
that they should be looking at anyone.
They shouldn't deal with the kids who
"look suspicious" or "are a little strange". They
should teach the kids that tease the strange ones
that it isn't write to do so.
Still today, outside of school, at work. Just a
few days ago, I dyed my hair Saftey Paint Orange
and still there is no getting away from it.
YOU CANNOT BE DIFFRENT WITHOUT PEOPLE HATING YOU.
My recommendation is to finish high school ASAP and get the hell out! College in my experience is a much more accepting place.
UTDallas is in the area and used to be a great place for people like this and I guesss it's still pretty good. But be sure to visit WaterviewSux.com before living on-campus!
If he fails the GED, then you know what areas he needs to study at home to pass next time. Then do the college thing (a high school junior this close to the end of his junior year should be able to pass the GED with just a couple of months of study).
As an alternative, rather than sending Sean to that 'special' school, get him transferred to another school district. Make it seem like he's been kicked out of his current school for being a danger, so it looks to the new school like Sean's the bully -- that way the bullies at the new school will leave him alone.
And if you do decide to fight this, remind the School Board that their policy of removing the victim and letting the bullies go will result in a school full of bullies, or will result in serious violence when the next victim decides they have nothing to lose by using real force to defend themselves (they're gonna get expelled either way, right?).
Good luck and best wishes for a happy resolution.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Here's a tool: SuperHTTP (off Download.com) will let you download an entire site.
I suggest getting it and spidering their site. The robot downloads every page on the site and that's a lot of bandwidth.
Enjoy!
Unitarian Church: Freethinkers Congregate!
She didn't have many disciplinary problems after that.
I posted and all I got was this stupid sig
First, who hasn't been picked on in high school?
I remember both getting picking and dishing it out. Why the fuck are kids such god damn pussies today that they can't take a little pushing around. Toughen up for crying out loud. Hit someone with your fist. A good old fashion fight might get you a day out of school or some detention, but at least the fucking trouble maker
going to layoff b/c you fought back.
Second, Sean is a dumb ass. With all the whoop about the 'troubles' in school, why would you even joke about that shit. It's the same spiel as walking through security at the airport and joking about a bomb. What kind of brainless act is this?
Third. Y'all got facts from Sean's father, who himself got his information second hand. Now, I'm not going to pass judgement either way because I don't know the gentleman. TAKE THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT: He could making shit up. Sean could be making shit up, and his father unknowingly passing the mis-information on. Then again, they both could be telling the truth. Who knows, but as always, guilty until proven innocent here. But of course the typical mental midgets of slashdot are all up in arms. Stalking other innocent people at this school, postintg email addresses; pretty much making lives miserable for many people who did have a damn thing to do with the decesion to give Sean the boot from school. Basically you doing the same thing to those irrelevant people as the bullies did to sean.
Hypocrites.
I thought you slashdotters might be interested in the reactions of a high school student.
I am a high school freshman and I understand what many of my peers feel. I know that as long as I can remember I have hated school. It is not the work or the teachers that I hate either. The work is almost insulting, my parents or I have tought me most of the science/history/english/math I know. It is the other children that I can not stand. I have always wondered why they can't "grow up." I have must confess that often I have thoughts about how nice it would be if I didn't have to deal with everyone I don't like, but then thats life.
I have found the best solution is to just not say anything. I have conditioned myself to never raise my hand not matter how obvious the answer is. I no longer let any one in school into my life. As a result I am very unhappy but I am not bothered. I think that I have faded into the back ground. Sometimes I worry that the rest of life will be this way. But I still have a little hope.
Now I've got a 3 year-old who resembles me physically and tempermentally (short-fuse). We have started him in martial-arts. Hopefully he will learn discipline along with self-defense. My goal is for him to pick the right spots to fight, then defend himself convincingly-enough that he'll no longer be a "target".
The problem with punishing bullies, is that often they have been provoked, usually verbally. "Target" kids are frequently "wise-guys"; if they can't defend themselves physically then they attempt to compensate verbally.
So any "solution" has to include not only the bullies, but the kids who respond, and the kids who provoke verbally.
And the solution is not just a matter for the schools. Kids repeat what they see in the home, and schools can't fix that. It's got to be a concerted-effort between schools and parents.
Parents who cop-out and simply blame the public schools are probably the biggest part of the problem.
Why not all the parents that do home school join together and establish a non-bureucatic school?
Here is some experience sharing for alternate schooling in my country - Malaysia.
In 1970s, Malaysia government started a plan to eliminate all ethnics education. Where all academic must be teach in Malay language. Language classes is conducted merely for learning purpose, not for curriculum. Before the time, Malaysian school are given rights to conducts academic in any language, e.g. English, Chinese or Indian.
Due to the worry of assimilation of ethnics culture value , the plan have been opposed by many activitist. During the struggling, a well known educationist citizenship have been revoked by the government with ridiculous excuses.
By the end, Ethnics secondary school is allow to be established but without goverment funding. Today, there is over 50 chinese ethnic secondary school in Malaysia with more than 20,000 students. The annual admistration cost of all the school reach USD 200 millions per year.
Today, the academic result from these school are well recognise by western University and other Asia university, except Malaysia itself.
If people in develop country such as Malaysia can do it, why not in US. Anyway, the funding shouldn't be a problem. If Malaysian with a annual income of USD4000 can make up the funding, States people should do better than us.
It's good to know that the biggest [explitive]heads learn how to manipulate the school beauracracy so that when the reach adulthood (for lack of a better term), they'll know how to do it on the job too. This situation is fundamentally no different than someone trying to create a situation at work and complaining to 'Human Resources'. American society has learned the power of victimization. That said, I think that Sean didn't show very good judgement by falling into their trap. Probably most of the readers of this site were not the 'cool' kids at school, and so we're all familiar with the kind of harassment and psychological torture that school can be a source of. If Sean had tried to improve his situation by dealing with the administration of the school, and they turned a blind eye, then I don't suppose they left him any recourse but to defend himself in the only way he saw as possible.
I have been a geek my whole life, and most of it had nothing to do with computers. I have also been a (private) music teacher for about 15 years, and it saddens me deeply to see society try to stamp out those of us that are bohemian(and yes, I think this label applies to geeks or hacker culture or whatever).
It's those bullies that make just the type of good little employees corporations love. Now excuse me while I try to stop this uncontrollable wretching at the puss hole this society is turning into.
I once read about a boy who got expelled from school for drawing a picture of a colt. Oh, and another who got sent to the headmistress for reading a bible, and his parents were called in.
I am not joking.
SpamNet - a spam blocker that really works
True. With such laws/grey areas of law such as the DMCA and school violence, people would much rather not be held liable in court. ISPs will pull the plug on OpenNap servers, and schools will expell kids with little or no evidence. Sounds like being guilty until proven innocent, which is exactly what our Constitution forbids.
A bit over a year ago, something similar happened to me. After being home-schooled for a year and a half, I decided to go back to school. I went to public school, since kids seem to be exactly the same in Catholic and public schools. One kid was bullying me, and I used the phrase "I'm gonna kill you!" Now I've said that all my life to people when I got pissed. The next day, I was unexpectedly called to the principals office, and learned about "death threats". "With all the violence in schools, you can't talk like that anymore". Talk about free speech.
before computers, it was A/V. it's always something, as long as it's different, and involves a set of skills that the bulk of the population doesn't posess nor have the ability to learn. ostracism of the smart has been going on for a long, long time.
it's too bad that there are literally no rewards for bright students and there is such a reward - socially - for athletic achievement. schools are structured to dole out praise and recognition to those who do well in sports, yet supreme academic achievers earn their reputations through public opinion with no guidance faculty-sponsored guidance. so other students' fear and intimidation create the negative aspects of an academic achiever and thereby condemn them to be a 'geek' or a 'nerd,' lest the average student be left with a sense of deprecated self-worth.
this is directly related to poor academic performance in schools as well. being a nerd is not an enviable position for the average student; there is no incentive for greater academic achievement since they know it comes at the price of social condemnation. (i.e. "should i study more and become a pariah, or watch Mtv all night and 'fit in?'")
perhaps the only answer then, (and who knows if it's even possible) is to somehow establish a reward system for academic achievement that is not limited to a grade or a plaque, one that would garner esteem from a students' peers, not their superiors. is it possible to make being smart enviable?
www.pixelectric.com
Look at this they boast how progressive they are with the wireless laptop computers. They even have a technology master plan!
-CrackElf
"Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
You have a partially valid point. In today's world, there is a fine line between the hero and the villian. In response to your comment oh his parents: Unfortunately, his parents ultimately do not affect his behavoir. They would be portrayed as "neglecting and irresponsible" by the media, but the media shouldn't be trusted. In response to your portrayal of him as "a sick, evil kid": Would he really be sick and evil? In a way, yes. In a way, no. Taunting is no excuse for violence, but our mind lets go of rationality when so pushed. Keep these things in mind, and don't trust the media.
Elmo knows where you live!
Sean's comment was foolish, his father says, especially in the post-Columbine environment where candid speech about schools is dangerous. And he isn't averse to some milder form of punishment.
Was it? Exactly what kind of recourse did he have? Perhaps the threat of physical violence is the only thing fools like that understand. In hind-sight, it was obviously a bad idea. But I'm not sure that any of us (including the school administrators) at 16-17 would have responded any differently.
"I just don't know what to do," says Patrick, who can't afford a lawyer, and who wants to protect his kid. Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could have implications for Sean down the line.
I doubt it. The records of minors are sealed. It may affect which universities he can get into, but even that's not such a big deal. And I bet there are many teachers at that school who would be willing to write letters of recommendation for him.
"...I would appreciate any suggestions as to what recourse we may have, or where we might find some help." ... Patrick Sheeley has some decisions to make and could use some help. Should he try to get Sean back into school or walk away? Should he take legal action to force due process?
Here's my suggestion. Because of an administrative screw-up when I went from the 8th to the 9th grade, I ended up being a year behind most people in math. But math was clearly my strength. So to fix the problem, a math teacher in my high school suggested that I take a trigonomitry class at a local community college at night. If I did, he agreed to skip me a year to the correct math class. This was in the 11th grade. It worked perfectly.
Looking back, I should have done things very differently in high school. My senior year was largely a waste of time. If I could do it again, I would get a GED and enter college early. Many colleges and universities don't even require a high school diploma. If I were the parent here, I would leave the school behind. Don't bother with the legal battle. It's not worth the time, money, and frustration. I think home schooling is the right idea. Then he can learn at his own pace. I'm willing to bet that he can get through all of this years work and the senior year's work by the fall semester at the local college/university. And I think graduating a year early mixed with some good SAT/ACT scores would go a long way toward impressing some universities.
On the other hand, that may not be a real necessity either. I'm 30 and make more than most vice presidents as an IT consultant. And I have a computer science degree from a generic state university.
I think he has more options than are obvious.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
"I mean, hell, what a triumphant bit of bullying that is! Harass the weak and dumb right out of the school! Sorry, Sean, but you walked fully and cooperatively into a trap. Smart geek? I don't think so." This gave me a great idea. We can assume that Sean is at the head of his class ("mocking my intelligence"). We can also assume that the bullies are probably not at the head of the class (blanant sterotyping[sp]). Well if the teacher grades on a curve, the bullies could just taunt all the smart kids out of school (yeah right) and get a better grade.
-------- 42
Getting to my point. This kind of behiavior is unexceptable. No one should feel scarred to goto school whether its in the crappiest city or the nicest suburb. I personally feel these cases need to be taken on a case to case basis, but don't cloud the issue with statistics...blah blah blah less than one percent of schools...blah blah blah. No. Tell that the those who lost their children. Tell that to the dead kids who no longer have a future. After all...All the psychos out there like Timothy Veah(sp?) and John Wayne Gasey are well less than one percent of the population yet should we spot pursuing these people?
-Mark
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
What you've got to do is simple. Make as much noise about this incident as possible. Pester newspeople until they return your calls, talk with the ACLU, send out press releases, call in radio talk shows, picket, place leaflets around your town, anything to garner attention. The best thing to do is to simply make these people's lives so miserable in dealing with this incident that they don't do anything as foolish again. Remember, the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease.
If god had intended you to be naked, you would have been born that way.
...That most school administrators have simply risen to their highest level of ineptitude. As someone who has worked intimately with teachers and public school administrators, I can attest to this. Most administrators start with teaching (and are poor teachers, at that), and move their way up the ladder trying to flee being "administered" into being the "Administrator." Additionally, I can recall only a mere HANDFUL of teachers who had any clue as to what students' real lives consist of, and what they have to deal with during a "normal" school day. This episode reflects what happens when morons apply moronic policies to protect younger morons from those like us who have their head above the waterline of "common" sense. I could go on, but would ya want me to? ;-)
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
This text is from http://www.courier-gazette.com/front1.shtml. Figured I'd c&p the story before it disappears elsewhere...
Columbine anniversary, threat has MISD on alert
By RYAN BAUER McKinney Courier-Gazette
- Around this time of year, one word hangs heavily on the minds of school staff and administrators. It's the word that symbolizes every student's, teacher's and parent's worst nightmare about what could happen in school. Columbine. That one word alone immediately conjures up images of the spring morning in a suburban Denver high school two years ago -- the morning that two students rained bullets on their classmates and teachers.
That's why, when the word recently wormed its way to school officials in a rumor passed around by students at McKinney High School North, MISD officials didn't dismiss it as idle chatter.
According to an MISD release, a rumor that some students had been talking about recreating Columbine reached a parent from their student at North or Johnson Middle School. The parent called the school, which, in turn, contacted the police. School officials and police immediately began following the rumor back to its source, eventually discovering that several students had been discussing whether they thought anyone they knew would be capable of a Columbine-like episode. They mentioned one student who was not present. That student, it was later determined by police through interviews with him and his parents, had never said anything relating to such behavior. Nevertheless, school officials announced at the Tuesday night school board meeting that the district has been placed on high alert because of the significance of this week, April 16-20.
April 20 is the second anniversary of the Columbine tragedy. That in itself was enough to warrant extra precautions at the middle and high schools last year. But, the MHS North rumor has made school administrators that much more conscious and committed to the safety of students and teachers.
"It is not uncommon for students across the country to discuss and, regretfully, even begin rumors about violence as the anniversary of this date approaches," said MISD Superintendent David Anthony. Sgt. John Duscio of the McKinney Police, who has served as a school resource officer at McKinney High School, said rumors like the most recent one are always taken seriously and investigated to exhaustion.
"When we hear something, we don't let it go," Duscio said.
MISD Safety/Transportation Director Woody Bryan said investigations of threats involve every member of the staff and security team. "We've adopted the policy that there are no rumor threats. Every threat is real until proven not," said Bryan.
Because of that, this week, the district is positioning additional police officers at the middle and high schools -- three additional officers at each high school, in addition to the one already based there, and one extra officer in the middle schools, as well as one at the ACT Academy.
Last year, the extra police presence was only for the Columbine anniversary and only at McKinney High School.
"The reason we're doing this is the same reason officers drive around the city," said Anthony. "Students see the officers talking to everybody and they feel safer.
"There is no reason for a child to be afraid. It's worth the extra time and money." Anthony added that schools have also taken additional precautions in case of a violent act that officials are not talking about. "We can't mention those because they're designed to work against the people who won't follow the rules," he said. Bryan also detailed a contingency crisis plan that has been in effect for schools for some time. The plan involves a quick-reference, color-coded flip-book that every teacher and staffer is trained to know how to use. Everything from fires and plane crashes to a "Columbine" is taken into account and has its own unique set of responses, Bryan said. Anthony and others said it was unfortunate that the district must spend so much time and effort on issues of school violence. But, he said, it is absolutely necessary.
"You can't educate a scared child just like you can't educate a hungry child. There needs to be a safe environment first, then a quality education."
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
- not being so bothered by verbal aggressive :D
- stopping any physical aggression cold...if the guy messing with the backpack lays off when you lock up his arm, that's great; otherwise, he can lie on the floor safely
Not that it's Sean's fault as far as we know. But prevention is the best medicine.
My $0.02.
"Kids aren't stupid." You obviously ARE a kid or never were a kid. I think most adults would admit to being immature and doing some stupid things when they were younger. I do.
It doesn't happen because the money never makes it to the classroom. The money all goes to pay layers of deadwood administration, mostly composed of the in-laws and nephews of people who run the show. Everything gets eaten by graft, nepotism and simple inefficiency. This is why administration of schools should have been privatized twenty years ago. The problem is that the creation of sinecures in the school administration creates a powerful lobby for its perpetuation. The only way to get away from it is to move, leaving schools and entire cities as empty shells. (You wonder why charter schools are opposed so violently in the places which need them the most? There's one of the reasons.)
Part of the problem is that schools accept bullying. There are a few clueful districts which have learned something from the few high-profile disasters like Columbine and the much lower-profile but overall deadlier phenomenon of teen suicide and are moving to address bullying. This may, someday, cause this problem to wind down.--
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No one expects the Spammish Repetition!
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
There has to be something missing. You could take this story, show it to any reasonable human being, and they would excuse Sean for being a victim of circumstance.
Either some information is missing, or this is easily a breech of some form of personal rights.
Seriously, there has to be a slashdotter here who is a lawyer, or a cop, or even another school administrator who can tell us why something as blatantly unfair (and probably unconstitutional) as this could go through. That is, unfair if this story is an accurate representation of the truth (I'll try not to put myself on a side just yet).
Hot Soup - Lethal Doses
Back in the "day", I attended Thurston High School in Springfield, OR. I also was abused verbally and physically in front of school personnel who had no intention of ever trying to put an end to this harassment. This occurred almost on a daily basis. I was lucky enough to have the foresight to escape this prison. Most of my formal education up until the age of 16 was through private schools overseas. This gave me a very unique perspective on the quality of education offered in America's public schools. I couldn't believe the appaling level of ignorance perpetuated at this one school. After being enrolled in this school for a total of 3 weeks, I dropped out at 16 and enrolled in a community college. Please note that I never entered a GED program (this too is a waste of time should Sean decide to go this route), but instead enrolled in college level classes to gain credits needed to become a transfer student. From there I enrolled as an engineering student in a four year university as a transfer student and thereafter a grad student in thermodynmics related studies. Today, I am well paid for my creativity and individuality. While I still have an interest in technology, I am by no means a sheltered person. I no longer work as an Engineer, instead choosing music as a form of employment. To this day, I still do not have a high school degree (which I am proud of). Thurston High School is also famous for a school shooting in which kids were killed. In my experience, likening this high school to a prison is a fair comparison. Examine the social structures of prisons and you will see that they are very similar to those of public high schools.
Apparently the 'subtle signs' that Columbine teachers, administrators and police missed in Eric Harris' case were:
Maybe instead of targeting kids who wear black, play Doom, or shoot imaginary guns, it would be enough just to pay attention to kids who are obsessing about mass murder and collecting enough weapons to make it a reality
From the article:
"People are covering up everything that went wrong and I want those lessons out there," says Judy Brown. "They're doing studies, they're getting profiles. Everybody's trying to get programs going and what we can do. Well guess what? All the signs were there. You know what the lessons are? Do your job."
I disagree with almost eveything you just said. A person should not have to hide who they are. If you are a geek then you should hold your magic cards and pocket protectors proudly (to make a generalzation). To forsake who you are is so much worse than accepting the torment (when it also involves accepting yourself). I'm not saying that it's a great thing to be picked on, I wish that intelligent and individualistic children could grow up with encouragement. But if everyone (meaning a few) was like this guy, and gave up the things they enjoyed for popularity and conformity, then the world would be a greater bore than it is at the present time.
I think you're a sellout.
*flame off*
I can understand why the schools are running scared in the states lately, but such over the top reactions just don't help, especially as it will put a feeling of power in the hands of The Bullies - 'Wow, we got this nerd kicked out as a lunatic!' - reinforcing their behaviour. I guess the school won't have a full investigation into the causes either....
Anyway: My solution - take a leaf out of the British way of doing things -
Lunch Time Drinking & Lighten up guys!
A school bully and his gang had been picking on my since the beginning of school. This bully was particularly cruel (he wore steel toe work shoes to kick kids like me in the shins).
During class I was excused to use the Hall Pass to the restroom. Outside I ran into this bully and he precede to taunt, insult me, and threatened to beat me up. I said something like," You better leave me alone!"
He laughed and taunted again, "Why? What are you going to do?"
Being the stupid, helpless kid that I was I threated him in the only way that I could think might actually affect him. I told him that I might have to get my Dad's gun and shoot him.
My recollection is a little fuzzy at this point, but I remember ending up in the Vice Principals office. Either she overheard the conversation or the bully told on me. I don't know which. Even though I explained the pattern of abuse from this bully, and that I didn't even have access to a gun, let alone a serious intention to use one she called my house and, unfortunately, my grandparents, who were visiting, answered. I was suspended for a day and it was recommended my parents seek psychiatric help for me.
I was extremely embarrassed by the incident and it made my life even more difficult in dealing with this and other bullies in the future.
School administrators need to be less reactionary and more analytical. Question the "problem" students classmates and teachers. Find out what is really going on. Punish the bullies not the victims.
While I don't claim to understand what drive kids to go on a shooting rampage I'm sure that making them feel more alienated and outcast certainly doesn't help. For those who are just trying to survive school it just makes their lives even more of a living hell.
*****
Just think of it as evolution in action.
I categorically reject that statement.
Yes, schools should stop bullying, and most schools do a pretty poor job of preventing the tormenting of "outcast" kids, but this is moral equivalence of the worst kind. Bullying kids are not "just as responsible" as those who pulled the trigger.
There are millions of bullied teens who manage to get through high school without massacring their classmates. Anyone who places less than 100% of the responsibility for Columbine on Klebold and Harris is just plain wrong.
Guess you'd have to leave your Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears tees at home, eh?
All while in high school, I was in the same position as Sean is now. Fortunately, the school I went to (Creighton Prep, Omaha, NE) had a system administrator who accepted computer types, and started an organization to help "mentor" us to succeed. For the last two years after graduating, I have been a mentor to other kids in the organization. I hate to see the bright ones put out because a bunch of idiots decided that he was a nice harmless target and then took advantage of him when he attempts to defend himself. I'll send a letter down to support his cause. I suggest that other /. readers also do so to lend some aid.
-Andy LeDoux (proto.infiniteloop@home.net)
When you take into account the current climate in schools, with kids being shot on an almost regular basis, there really isn't a place for comments like these. I, for one, know that if there was someone at work that I bullied a lot and they threatened to kill me, I would be worried. Is it terrible that he's getting bullied? Yes. I took a lot of that shit in elementary and middle school, and some my freshman year in high school. From then on, I was made fun of because I was smart. But none of that excuses anyone for threatening someone's life.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
from the personnel handbook, pg 104
It is a district expectation that MISD students learn in schools and classrooms that are positive, nonthreatening physically and emotionally, developmentally appropriate and supportive. District staff will demonstrate high expecations of all students while facilitating the development of a learning community. A variety of innovative processes (such as POPS, TRIBES, Boys Town, Student Creed, Conflict Resolution, and Peer Mediation) are designed for developing positive learning communities and are utilitized across the district.
oh, and just for the slap to the face that is needed for this student, the following list comprises of the five fundamental attitudes needed for "a pleasant and productive journey through life." as on the same page a description of the POPS program:
Belief in Self
Self-Confidence
High Expectations
Goal Setting
Self-Esteem
yup, they obviously did the right thing by this high school student
and the Irishman took the fly in his hands and yelled, "spit it out!"
The probelm lies in the fact that public schooling as it stands now is less a place of education and more a horrific cross between daycare and a prison.
Consider:
All three of these statements apply equally well to both schools and prisons. To this day I refer to my time in high school as my incarceration.When you force a bunch of people into a building who would rather not be there, of course there is going to be tension, and of course violence is going to break out. The problem isn't the teachers, the problem isn't the parents, the problem is the concept of manditory public schooling. Forcing people to do things against their will has a history of pissing them off. Even Rome had their slave revolts.
And getting out isn't all that easy, either. Even if you are 16 and legally able to drop out of school, the state often requires that you must wait until after you would have graduated high school to try to get your GED. (And if you can study for a few months to get a diploma that is the equivalent of four years of public schooling, what does that say about the quality of the education going on within these schools?)
If you ask me (which you probably won't), public schooling should be just that: public. Those that do not want to attend should not be forced to attend. On the other hand, those that do want to attend, reguardless of circumstance, should be allowed to. High school drop-outs or those older than the age of 18 shouldn't be penalized by having to pay the local community college to get what others have for free by virtue of age.
I'm sorry, but any building with that few windows has GOT to be a jail...
MISD is a client of my company - I don't know anyone there personally but I'm sure many of the faculty/administrative members disagree with what has become 'streamlined policy' for every school district that receives any federal dollars.
A fund is a good idea - kick-ass legal representation costs a lot.
Good, on-topic, non-flambait letters make the best sense. Especially if the policy doesn't come from the top of the admin tree @ the district in question.
Be patient - this is gov't you're dealing with, nothing happens overnight.
If your child goes to this school, make the point to be visible @ meetings and vocal about what you don't agree with and why. It wouldn't do anyone any good to bully the District the way some of these kids are bullying each other.
Request an evaluative process to be implemented by the district @ their(the gov't) expense. Kids like Sean who have no prior offenses should be given a 'benefit of the doubt' session with an INDEPENDENT therapist....not someone on the school payroll roster who could lose their job if they don't follow the rules of the game. Someone who has NO AGENDA to determine how much of a risk the kid is.
If you have children in school - check with your school administrator and take in a meeting to discuss these scenarios, reality check them if you have to. See what's up BEFORE it becomes a situation with your family. Don't get blindsided.
My advise: educate yourself...know MORE than they do BEFORE they do.
been dead for years, just haven't stopped moving yet...
By all means have the kid homeschooled. The psychological scars that he risks acquiring and creativity stifled in this situation by far outweigh any immediate positive benefits. No, this is not the wuss way out, either, if you're going to say, "well, shouldn't he stay and learn to stick up for himself?" The boy is in a situation where, at the moment, he has been boxed into a corner, and forced into a situation that he is not in a position of power to control, and remaining in the school or shuffled off to another "alternative" will likely only serve to further lower his self-esteem and stifle his creativity. But: have you considered "gifted" schools/programs?
The arguments for "not enough social interaction" in homeschooling just don't wash if you ensure that your son participates in extracurricular activities that involve other kids his age, both male and female. Like soccer or other team sports, perhaps, if he's so inclined. Or perhaps (formal) dance classes. Seriously.
The only concern that I would have is if whoever is homeschooling him really has enough time to give him the kind of attention and interesting activities that he needs, and if he's scholastically on par with his high school classmates. But if you give periodic tests that mimic the ones that are given in the public school, this should be ok.
In an ideal world the young man would be able to express himself creatively without any kind of backlash such as this, but one needs to understand the pragmatic reality of the real world. It's probably a good thing the kid is being home schooled--anyone who is so utterly stupid to make a retaliatory threat in a public school, given recent events, likely needs that "little bit of extra help."
Translation: the kid's either lived in a bubble for the past five years or he's a friggin' motard!
--
I can completely empathize with the kid; high school was a terrible environment for anyone who was not part of a certain crowd. Our school system is destroying creativity and freedom of expression. I think homeschooling is a good alternative for now. What we really need are good alternative schools for the gifted. I discovered my city had one attached to a respected private college after I had graduated from high shcool. Charter schools should be able to fill this role in many areas if their backers understand what they can accomplish. Letting the bright and creative teach themselves in a safe, condusive environment would save a lot of people's lives, both literally and metaphorically.
Disclaimer: There is no guarantee that the content has been read or understood
Have you ever been bullied? If so, I doubt you would make that statement. And the article said the dad was too poor to afford a lawyer, so in most places he could not afford a private school.
Disclaimer: There is no guarantee that the content has been read or understood
Why do feel the need to jab Oklahoma? There are a lot of narrow-minded and intolerant people in New York and LA too but there was no need to mention them b/c we always feel like they're so cosmopolitan and open...
Disclaimer: There is no guarantee that the content has been read or understood
Dallas school districts all suck. In fact some are just downright unethical. In Coppel they harrass pregnant kids and kids with criminal record untill they leave, just to keep their statistics looking good so people move there and keep the real estate prices up. In dallas, one of our ex superindentants is in prison for buying $50000 worth of chinese screens and stuff for her office or house or something, i forgot the exact story.
Anyhow, it's a great, stress-relieving hobby. Handling a gun is like driving a stick-shift; you may never need to do it, but everyone should know how.
Bullies are like hyenas - they rarely prowl alone. Get one busted and you have to deal with their friends as well.
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Like what?
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Asking Slashdot seems like a pretty smart thing to do to me. Though some of the postings would be good arguments against the opinion, most of us are relativly smart and fairly well informed. Why would you not seek advice from like-minded people? Where else could he turn with a question of this nature? The school administrators would be the obvious choice. But, in this case, the school is clearly run by idiots. Bravo, I say, for making good use of a valuable resourse! (/.)
"You better be nice to that kid, one day he'll be your boss." 'Nuff said.
"Sometimes nothin' is a pretty cool hand." - Cool Hand Luke
It is not a question of intelligence but rather of believes.
This kind of lunacy is typical among liberals and other "progressive" groups. It is their agenda, simple like that.
The only way liberals win national elections is by pretending they're not liberals.
I wish that I had the self-control that Sean has... I have had to put up with bullying in one sense or another since 1st grade... I however, did not have the self-control posessed by our good friend Sean, I would respond by hitting... this was not a problem back then, cause no one cared about school violence, but it was usually very discourging that i had to put up with that kind of verbal abuse until my breaking point, then i got in trouble for it and the other kids didnt... when i was in 8th grade, some kids were throwing balls at me and verbally harassing me... I snaped and went over and kicked one of them. unfortuantly i hit at just the right angle, and snapped the kid's wrist. I of course felt real bad about it, and expected the usual (or worse) punishment. However, by this time the school had realized just what i had to put up with, and in this case, even though the other kids was not disaplined, I was given a 5 day excused absence from school, instead of a suspension. this was all fine and dandy until the kid's psycho mom decided that it wasnt enough that i offered to pay the hospital bills, she took it to court. Even the judge thought this whole thing was a load of bull, he had me take a drug test, and (being a nerd) of course i passed, so he put me on 18 months of probation, which was soon replaced with early intervention, which meant i went in and talked to a probation officer once a month for 15 minutes. this was all great. However, of course, the teasing didnt stop, and to top it off, the kid had about 10 derogatory remarks against me on his CAST. this such as "Die, Pete, Die!" and "Pete sucks". of course, having already been nice, the administartion just had him black out the remarks, and go on with life. anyway, i thought this might intice some interesting responses, if anyone is still watching this article
GUN GUN GUN GUN GUN GUN!
I thought not.
perhaps that's the uncorrectable flaw of the education system. it will repeat itself in history for as long as forever. same before same today same for the rest of forever.
Imagine if all you did was allow your child to participate in your daily work life - from cooking, to programming, to cleaning.
Could they possibly turn out worse than being subjected to the Public Ed system? Especially the High School system - where they learn about arbitrary social heirarchies based on appearance and sports skill, where all knowledge is taught out of context, and homework is used to control rather then enrich their home lives.
The most responsible thing you can do for your children is protect them from the government by removing them from the Public Ed system.
My wife and I are planning on home schooling our children as we have no doubt that the gulag known as the U.S. public education system would utterly destroy their creativity and individuality.
But the key is to coordinate home schooling with others of similar mindset. Home schooling works best when the focus is on building a home schooling community.
What is needed is a secular home-schooling network that would help link up parents and families with others in their communities.
There are a few alternatives available to the family. Let's take a look: 1. You might interest the ACLU. Then again, you might not, since you don't fall into any of the recognized 'categories' for fund raising purposes. If you bring them in, they will be running the show, not you. Their 'client' is the Constitution, not you. I'm pointing this out not to trash the ACLU, but to suggest that 'free' legal services often come with ropes attached. 2. The post said that the decision was 'unappealable.' Never rely on an administrator's interpretation of the rules. Take a look at the regulations yourself to see what they say. There may be an administrative remedy, there may not. 3. Now let's get to the meat of the matter. This young man was the victim of harassment, in a school district that permitted the harassment to continue and created an environment, or at least permitted an environment to exist in which harassment could thrive. The 'gang' certainly committed an assault, and perhaps a battery in taking the young man's backpack and rifling through its contents. So a possible solution is to bring an action in tort against the young men and the school's principal and administrators. Damages is not so important as injunctive relief. It may be too late to ask a judge to maintain the status quo, but perhaps not. 4. Unfortunately, the cost of maintaining such an action is not trifling. The principal will get his legal fees paid by the district; expect a large firm to come in with all of the "discovery" (pre-trial investigative procedures) routines that even Bill Gates found can sap strength, energy, attention, and most of all, money. But the young men will not be represented gratis. My guess is that this is not the first time they've engaged in such behavior. It shouldn't be that difficult to turn up other victims. And that's when the case gets interesting. Unfortunately, in the United States, the ability to vindicate rights too often depends on the financial status of the victim. That is our great legal system. No, it is unlikely an attorney would accept this case on a contingency. Highly, highly unlikely.
Many people call the kid a martyr or say that his rights weren't violated..... and I would have said the same thing. However, I watched my little sister go through a situation in which every conceivable right she should have had was violated by the school administration. Now, I tend to think differently and give the family the benefit of the doubt. I researched every aspect about schools and the rights of students and here is what I have found. 1. Many lawyers will take the case free of charge. 2. school districts are required by law to have an appeals process within 30 days (or at the monthly school board meeting). At this appeals process the boy can present his argument. Any lawyer would say that punishment cannot be imposed without due process (even if it is the school districts warped sense). The end of May is ridiculous. 3. After this appeals process the boy can sue. 4. The ACLU will take many cases. 5. THE MOST INTERESTING- the Department of Education( as bad as its rep is) has a complaint process that is supposedly fairly decent. Complaints must be filed within 180 days of the date of the incident. 6. Schools HATE bad publicity. The man that gave that advice is brilliant. Publish the school district's name, their smail mail address, and email addresses if possible. I know my high schools have all the admin staff's email published.) Be polite, but active. 7. Mostly, if you were involved before your son got in "trouble" with this incident, prove it. That is important and will take care of people who would question whether you were doing your duty as a good father. There are a lot of websites and groups that deal with stuff like this. I say take a loook and do some research. I did. Word of caution. My parents chose not to do anything, even though we had a strong case and the district probably would have settled. It would have been hard on my sister, and she would have been put on trial, regardless if she was the victim and a minor. All I am saying is it might not be worth it. Goodluck.
Okay, Gumps lead the school system. Why would you want to fight to have the kid reinstated? Seems to me that going back to the same environment is going to provoke more of the same *because* this child is seen as *different*. To the dad, I am certain a lot of Geeky parents reading the post are sympathizing with you. I am. No parent wants to see his kid abused or wronged. The idea here is to help this boy grow into a strong adult. How many of us want to tell off our bosses, or project managers, when they are unreasonable? We often don't walk around issuing threats -- we find a new job, we improve ourselves, we ignore it, we eventually take the Pointy-Haired Boss's job. :-) There are lots of ways around a bad situation, and that's what the boy needs to hear from an adult. That's our No. 1 job as parents: To give our kids the tools they need to survive as adults.
I think, however, before the boy becomes a *victim* and we start asserting that rights were violated, and counting out all the wrongs (and there were wrongs, no one disputes that), it's also important to consider the boy's role in these events. Telling someone that you are going to shoot them, maim them, or otherwise injure them and you *aren't* a law-enforcement officer is a stupid idea. The boy made a serious threat.
Kids are dumb. They say hurtful things because they are dumb. Kids make mistakes. And like any other sort of pack mentality, kids are going to go after someone who is different from them. It's too bad that an adult didn't step in earlier to stop the classroom or school-day abuse. Facts are, though, that as parents we have to gird our kids against the slings and arrows that the rest of society is going to shoot at them. We tell our 9-year-old daily that it's okay to be different, it's okay to be unpopular, and it's okay to get out of a hostile situation. No one should be abused, and the school failed the boy in that regard. The boy didn't use his brain to get out of the situation in a dignified or elegant manner either.
When one is different, often times more expected of that person. It's important to use that brain to understand humans as well as machines.
Here are my recommendations, for what they are worth. We've fought against a school board and elementary school for our 9-year-old, and changing teachers was the right solution for us. We also had to do a lot of outside legwork, so be prepared.
--Professional counseling would be first on my list if he were my son. He needs to learn to deal with abusive people and bullies. Plus, it would give him a healthy outlet because this is a stressful time.
--Homeschooling is a great option if you are home, can hire someone to come in, or can get into a community homeschool program. The kids socialize, take field trips, and have a rigorous curriculum. There are lots of web resources. Do a Google or Yahoo! search on Homeschooling.
--Montessori education may be an option. Church-based private schools also may work, depending upon your religious preference.
--Think about enrolling him in a college-level continuing education class, or give him some sort of alternative peek at what education *can* be. Museums, libraries, user-group meetings, sometimes offer special weekend classes. Sign him up for a professional workshop for that matter.
--If you reinstate, or return to public school, ask for a younger teacher or one not-long out of college. Sometimes younger teachers are more willing to try novel classroom-management techniques.
--The ACLU is a wonderful organization, which has done outstanding social work. My question is: Whose civil rights were violated? And what purpose does it serve to bring national media attention to a bunch of school bullies?
--Maintain focus on the issue. If you think the school and school board needs reform, great. Then, keep the boy out of it. If you think the boy was victimized, be clear about the *crime*.
--Keep your dignity about you.
Good luck.
as they say, what is to be expected from those morons. it's not the kids who are harrassed who crack, the kids who do the harrassing decide they need to harrass these innocents a bit more, get a bigger kick. bullying is addictive. by the way, if you are thinking teaching you kids at home, you should go to http://www.hslda.com/ which provides legal services at a low cost (i think it's about $20 or $30 a year). also, look into using math texts by John Saxon (saxon publishing, CA) these are very good texts and most homeschoolers sware by them. Good luck.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the other kids were right or that Sean was a "wuss". But to some extent you're right.
When I was in high school, just over ten years ago, if someone got in your face, teased or harrassed you too much, you popped the guy in the nose. Maybe you got your ass kicked, maybe not. But at least you did something about it. And there was the great chance that was going to be the end of it. The thing about bullies is, they usually only pick on the kids that don't fight back. You bloody one guy's nose and don't get picked on.
Of course that was 10 years ago. This assumes nobody has a knife, gun, explosive,...
I remeber going through the same sort of thing back when I was in High School (though I certainly didn't get expelled for anything). The reaction of the school is understanable from the information they recieved, that is, a story from one student who most likely left out certain facts. Because of things like Columbine, schools are taking what they call "no chances" on this issue. For example, the New York Times magazine published an article a couple of weeks ago about students being punished for this subject, and one of the items was a young child, around 5, being expelled for pointing a chicked finger at a fellow student and saying "Pow, Pow!" This of course means the end of Cowboys and Indians. However, what the school did absolutely wrong was to act after hearing only one side of the story. Sean has said that he doesn't wish to go back to this place. Understandable. But his father should look at legal action against the school. This sort of thing, in a broad sense, has been happening nationwide, and parents have been winning in court against schoolboards. Good luck with whatever your decision is.
Yup, this story sounds about right for us. Do we want to treat the disease? NO! Just the symptoms. That way we can blame someone else when the disease gets worse! I was in the exact same situation as this kid. I failed computers. . .got beat up a LOT, harrased a lot. It took some time but those wounds heal SLOWLY! Now I RULE!
People who are against human cloning must be bitter they are not good enough to be cloned.
I think Patrick should definately fight the decision of the school board to deem Sean "too dangerous to be in high school" -- such a status on a school record will only hurt Sean's opportunities in the future.
Consider when Sean applies to a post-secondary institution. Would a college/university/tech institute accept someone who was "too dangerous" and risk putting their own reputations on the line? I doubt it.
Patrick: keep your son in home schooling -- he will learn more and will have adequate stimulation to grow in many ways. However, you should definately fight the decision of the school, if not just for 'justice', but for your son's future at other institutions.
Put this behind you, but only when you know it will not pop up and haunt you again one day.
Zakias
I was also actually webmaster of McKinney High School's website (www.mckinneyhs.com, but the district didn't want a student-controlled domain so they let it expire and one of those stupid companies bought it). Anyhoo, I am very thankful I got out of there when I did, as everything seemed to be falling apart. 1995-96 was awesome. But as the years went by things just started to suck more and more. The enforcement of 'zero tolerance' became rediculous. One day my Sr. year there was a huge rumor all over the school about 'Friday someone will bomb the school.' Everybody started asking everybody else if they are going to go that day. My reply was 'Of course I am, don't be stupid.' Friday was a sad sad day. We had, at that time, 2243 students (according to my yearbook). That Friday less than half showed. The school was in a Police state, literally. Over a dozen officers rode through the halls on bicycles all day. Bags (and band instrument cases) were searched upon entering the building, which may be normal for some districts, but not here. It was completely rediculous. But what could be done? Should they ignore the rumor? Hmm. Things were never really done right at that school. The year after I graduated I learned that many administrators left to pursue other jobs (Jim Chandler, Dr. Hunter (principal), my band director, lots more...). /. , even when I felt I really should because it was a hot topic to me. But when I saw my old school I just had to register :)
For years I hadn't posted on
-B
-------------------------- D.B.S.G.E.P.K.A. --------------------------
my best advice for u .. coming from an 18 yr. old admin.. would be to say that im sure your son has already got all the education he can get from our bloated school system... get him a good paying job at a computer company.. then he can laugh in those school administrators faces!
The answer to all your problems
Just so you don't feel alone, I agree with you about every single thing you said. The main reason why people get harrassed in school is because they have incredibly high expectations of those around them. Common sense dictates that if you play Magic at lunchtime and carry around 40 sided dice (thank you Cliff Yablonski), then you will draw attention to yourself. Should people be harrassed just for being different? Probably not. BUT, to be shocked and indignent when it happens is asinine. Additionally, I am also sure that almost every person here crying about how they were picked on in high school considers the people who did it idiots or 'morons'. Everyone judges everyone else; its a fact. Geeks no less than so-called bullies, as banal as that sounds. The only difference between them is that jocks et al. tend to travel in big groups and look imposing. But if words are the only thing they're using to hurt you, then you need to grow a thicker skin. If they kick your ass daily, then go tell someone. You're probably not the only one they do it to, so enlist the help of others. Death threats (whether tongue-in-cheek or indications of soon to be unveiled sawed-off shotgun wrath) tend to be a bad idea. You don't have to 'stop being who you are' in order to fit in, but you do have to realize that if you draw attention to yourself then you will be singled out and judged. Simple as that. Should people be more accepting? Absolutely. Should we expect it to happen? No. So why not stop playing Magic at lunchtime and carrying 40 sided dice. --RT
Sean, you are most definitely reading these posts. The most creative thing you can now do is to use your skills to help reach out to kids caught in similar situations. In school they tell us to be strong; they tell us that "snapping" is a weakness. In reality, it is not that easy. You know this.
Unfortunately, the few kids that harm others when they cannot handle the pressure are causing the pressure to build even more as school administrators and parents force the kids to take even more drastic measures to "fit in". Well, how do we help. Yes, we, the /. loving, technology enabled, brainiacs of the world. Is there a /. style forum for these kids so they can vent and maybe form online peer-help groups. I think this is something we, as /. readers, philanthropists, techo-geeks, and parents can do to help these kids. If not us, then who.
Unfortuately, I'm computer-savvy, but I don't have the skills to accomplish this task. If someone does, please contact me. I want this to be available if it is not already. Sean, your plight (though admittedly one-sidedly reported, but heartfelt nonetheless) is felt by many. Stay strong, you'll need it.
Thanks, Wes
I always get the shakes before a drop.
I also had problems with the school district here. It disturbs me that kids under 18 have absolutely no rights whatsoever, and the schools are allowed to behave in ways toward our children that should not be allowed under our constitution. Unfortunately, the ACLU told me that they only accept "winning cases", meaning that if there isn't much of a chance that they'll win in court, we're S.O.L.
I am an unschooler, and I have been since I left highschool at the beginning of tenth grade. If they are interested in homeschooling, I recomend the Teenage Liberation Handbook, by Grace Llewellyn (ISBN: 0962959170). It is based on the works of John Holt with an emphasis placed on being read by teenagers instead of their parents, although my Dad read it and agreed with most of it. Regain your own curiousity and love of learning, without curriculum, without walls, without grades. And best of all you can certainly go to college after being an unschooler, I have been taking occasional classes at community college since I started unschooling and I am nearly a year ahead of my peers in college work.
Why can't you? It's not illegal to want things now, is it?
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This makes sense, because after all, why would you possibly want to stop the abuse and help the student with his problems. Actually. Perhaps he should be expelled from social settings in public. After all, if one has a hard time dealing with harassment to which the establishment is indifferent, it makes sense to do the easiest thing, and remove the picked on. Right?
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Teaching would be fine if the system didn't suck on a massive scale, but the fact is that the average school district couldn't keep truly excellent teachers because of constraints that legal/financial departments would place upon them. This is why finances and ethics aren't taught in schools. It would expose the self-serving morons who run them.
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Our schools are dysfunctional, but the proper thing to do isn't to crash a server. The proper thing to do is report the facts as they are. I advocate strong journalism, and being a journalist personally, I have to advocate having the facts. If you're interested in supporting the school or raising hell in protest against it, then you have to do your homework.
r ch .shtml
k rp t/roles/boardpre/rpt/zip.htm
% 20 agendas/oct17_CCminutes.htm
r pt /district/boardmem/fmt/zip.htm
t m
For instance,
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/gen_info/board.html
reports that the President of the board is Geralyn Kever.
Furthermore,
http://www.lwvcollin.org/YEOmckin.html
reports the following contact information which could be theoretically used to contact the President for comments and fact finding and proper journalism:
Geralyn Kever
2409 Clublake Trl
Mc Kinney, TX 75070-4003
(972)562-1186
(home address and number?)
She's a public official who functions as the executive ombudsman. Her facts and the facts of the school should be open to use under the full extent the law permits! The reason I present this information is that what is needed is objective journalism: an inquiry into the situation. Investigation!
The following links might aid in healthy investigation of the scenario. All are public informaiton.
http://www.tasb.org/legislative/reports/1998/ma
http://askted.tea.state.tx.us/cd-rom/start/quic
http://www.mckinneytexas.org/government/Council
http://www.duncanville.k12.tx.us/txschdir/quick
http://mckinneyisd.net/board/minutes-10-20-99.h
Furthermore,
Robb Temple
Sales
Lynn Sperry
Magazine Publisher
Wade Cramer
Vice President
Engineer/Self Employed
Leonard Evans
Driving School Owner
Betty Petkovsek
Secretary
Pharmacist
Wade Johnson
Insurance Agent
are additional names listed by the school district as being possible sources... investigate investigate and report, as I say!
Perhaps a website might be started to a journalistic approach to gathering the facts. A healthy journalism is the blood of free speech and the enemy of tyranny. Free speech.
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What happens when you're in an airport and you stand there and say "I have a bomb". Well, this is what happens when your a student in school and you threaten to kill people/persons with a gun. It doesn't matter that Sean *didn't mean* what he said - he said it. Any maybe 5000 miles away in another school, another sixteen year old like Sean says the same thing... and he didn't get kicked out, but he really did mean it. How can any administrator who is responsible for the safety of hundreds of kids in a school not take that type of a comment seriously. People SHOULD be concerned when this type of a comment is made. I bet if Sean said "I'm gonna beat the crap out of you" he would have possibly faced a few days suspension. But he didn't threaten that - he made a much more serious comment than that. He said if he was holding a gun in his hand at that moment, someone standing in front of him would be dead. If I walked into my place of employment tomorrow and made that comment to a co-worker who was bothering me, I bet I would 1) be fired immediately, and 2) quite possibly be charged with uttering death threats. You just don't do that! I for sorry for the family having to go through this, as the family believes Sean would never do this, HOWEVER: Any school admin who DOESN'T take that kind of a comment seriously should lose their job.
People responding here seem to think that this whole deal is much simpler than it really is. To start with, there is a reason beyond pay and quality control that makes us have teachers that can't stop bullying... At least IMHO, most people who decide to become teachers are people who were not scarred by high school. I hated high school, I don't think that I would go back, even if I was a teacher... so these teachers were either bullies themselves (not as common) or were at least mildly popular to the point that they were oblivious to what was really going on.
. html
Next is the cry-me-a-fucking-river commentary about "our hard earned tax dollars." This argument is bullshit. We can talk until we are blue in the face about how we are some sort of democracy, but it isn't true... we live in a republic. We could not live in a true democracy because of our size... so we go to our jobs and make the products and services that we need to live, and we elect others to hammer out all of our governmental issues. We give them that power, and we can take it away if we want with an election... but we empower them to ask us for money, we give it to them, and we empower them to spend it. Everyone in the country pays taxes to go to public education whether or not they have children in public schools, whether or not their children have been kicked out of public schools, whether or not they have children at all... just the same that we all pay taxes that go towards a bloated defense budget, tax breaks for Nordstrom and Microsoft, and any other of a multitude of things that I personally don't think that my tax dollars should be going to. Yeah, we have a right to ask for better service... but to do that we have to be active, we have to elect the right people to the board, we have to elect the right senators and representatives, we have to run for those positions ourselves, but remember that someone else somewhere disagrees with you, and they are trying to be active as well.
The (hate to use the phrase, but...) post-Columbine era has created a vicious cycle. High school is one of the most stressful times in someone's life. You get more independance, you have gone through most of puberty, you have to make decisions... blah blah blah... Every time the kid that you already hate disrespects you it hurts, a minor relationship with your "high school sweetheart" ending is like the crash of the Hindenburg... so you take a bunch of these kids, herd them into a small room, put up metal detectors, put up surveillance cameras, put in place "no tolerance" policies, encourage classmates to become spies for the administration, and then we wonder why kids are acting out? I think that it is even one of the reasons the bullies act out, not to mention the quiet kid who comes to school with an uzi. When I was in high school we got new surveillance cameras, and we would post signs that said "big brother is watching" on them. So kids act out, and have to do it in bigger ways because of the bigger pressure, and then they put in more security. It is not surprising to me that there is more and more violence in the schools.
I think the complexity can actually be exemplified with my mother. She works at a middle school and I get into arguments with her all the time about school security... she is in a precarious position on the subject because she had to deal with me being in school and coming home many days talking about how so and so tried to pick a fight with me, and how such and such administrator did something to me without punishing someone else in the in-crowd for doing the same thing. She was able to see reletively first hand what it was like for me as a geek to go through school and how the school administration turned a blind eye to it. On the flip side, she has concerns about her safety when she goes to work. She doesn't want to get shot or injured. She, to a certain extent, believes in these no tolerance policies and surveillance camera stuff. There are a lot of people caught in the middle of this, and when you have a school board meeting where a billion concerned parents show up to make sure that they feel their children are safe from guns, then something superficial is going to be done.
I feel a great deal of sorrow for this Sean, and for all of the other people who have to go through the same bullshit that I and many people on slashdot have had to deal with in our lives. I am sad that it still goes on, but I don't know how to stop it. Kids are cruel, and when the cruel kids grow up, they turn a blind eye to the kids that are being cruel.
I think that action is the only way to do anything... go to the board meetings, speak intelligently to administrations and teachers and other parents. Voice concerns in a logical way and not in a veangeful way, otherwise you are ignored.
On the flip side, if you are a kid, hit back if you are big enough, and if you aren't big enough, find someone who is big enough to hit for you. As sad as it is, bullies only really understand bully. Otherwise, don't fight back and understand that you are sticking by your morals and your convictions and KNOW that you are a better person for it. That is how I made it through high school (I found out later that I had a friend who was kicking ass behind my back).
One last note, I think that everyone should read this article in the Onion that was printed a while back that sums up this whole episode very well...
http://www.theonion.com/onion3532/columbine_jocks
-- "My name is a killing word."
We are all taxpayers in this district. Virtually all public school districts receive significant federal funding.
Regarding Sean and his school: It sounds like the school itself is biased and corrupt, rotten to the core. It "lies, breaks state laws, and gets rid of bright students". Even if Sean had his case appealed, and won the legal right to attend, that would not change the nature of the school. The administration would likely find another way to get rid of him.
Sean's father had the best solution given the situation, home-schooling. It may not be an elegant solution, but is always an option available to parents as a last resort.
There are many schools, like Dallas's McKinney (or Columbine, Santana, etc.), that are fanatical about image, and the "right crowd". Those jock playgrounds care nothing about justice - only favoring jocks, preppies, bullies, and their vocal parents. The rules and punishments apply only to nerds, never the "good old boys" (and girls).
Good luck finding a good school, committed to education, that actually values creative intellectual talent (and the passion that goes with it), and treats everyone fairly.