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Are Kids Turning Your Kids Into Killers?
What makes big news -- and what doesn't -- is always telling. We hear a lot about kids who get gunned down in schools by their peers. We usually hear even more about the evil influences on their lives, from gaming to violent TV and movies to the Net. Yet a vastly greater number kill themselves because of their peers. That doesn't draw many headlines or stories on the evening news, or denunciations from the President.
In the past 15 months, four students have been killed and a more than a score wounded in a series of U.S. school shootings, the most recent in Santee, California, where 15-year-old Charles Andrew Williams allegedly opened fire from a bathroom in Santana High, killing two and wounding 13.
As usual, the government has tended to blame video games and violent movies and TV shows. Aschroft said "the entertainment industry, with it's video games and the like, which sometimes literally teach shooting and all, we've got to ask ourselves, how do we as a culture ... be more responsible."
It's a good question, but not in the way Ashcroft means. Many kids, like Tempest Smith of Lincoln Park, Michigan, simply couldn't take being teased and bullied any longer
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), more than 2,000 school-age children aged 19 or younger take their own lives each year. The rise in suicides by children ages 10 to 14 is especially alarming, say CDC officials.
Psychologists and researchers report that bullying, taunting or constant ridicule by peers is often a major factor in these suicides, as well as a constant thread running through the horrific series of school shootings.
The Detroit News recently told the story of 12-year-old Smith, who hung herself from her bunk bed in February, leaving behind diaries describing the continuous harassment she faced daily about her shyness, her clothing and religious beliefs. She wrote that these taunts made life unbearable. And hers is not an isolated case. In recent months, I've gotten e-mail from the parents and friends of an Ohio hacker who shot himself at 14 after continuous jeering about his gaming. He was suspended for writing an enraged essay criticizing the values of his school, a piece that contained threats to retaliate against kids who had been bullying him for years. I've also heard from the parents of a 15-year-old Goth in Pennsylvania who slashed her wrists and died after years of teasing from classmates. Kids who are non-conformist, rebellious, individualistic or different in other ways are routinely subjected to harassment all kinds, as well as life in schools that cling to outdated curriculums, punish non-conformity and isolate individuals.
"Everyone is against me," Tempest Smith wrote in her diary. "Will I ever have friends again? ... Will I ever live in peace?"
More than 90 percent of people who commit suicide suffer from clinical depression, according to studies by the American Association of Suicidology in Washington, D.C. "Often, it's these mental conditions that cause children to be teased in the first place," an association official told the Detroit News. Taunting also is cited as a factor in many of the cases -- including the horror at Columbine -- in which kids kill other kids. Yet 81 percent of Americans told the Gallup they blame the Internet for Columbine.
A handful of schools have instituted anti-bullying and harrassment programs, but the popular media and most politicians seem much more interested in kids who go over the edge and shoot others than in the many more who are driven over the edge and kill themselves. Maybe it's time to shift focus.
I agree wholeheartedly. Dysfunctional children are the result of dysfunctional families and a dysfunctional society, not bad video games and tv. Violent media only gives people ideas on how to implement actions they were going to do anyway. I remember there was an absolutely huge kid in my high school who was expelled for starting fights all the time. In homeroom the day after he was booted, we got a 50 minute lecture from the vice principal on how the violent rock and rap music he listened to warped his mind and turned him into a monster. I'm glad she cleared that up for me, because up until that point I thought that the bruises he came in with daily from his dad beating him were signs of the real problem.
Search Slashdot for the Hellmouth story, you're not alone.
Read Katz's book Geeks, for another viewpoint.
Many of us were there, I was lucky in that there were a lot of kids who where children of college professors, so the AP crowd hung together and didn't get much harassment.
"I'd like each and every one of you in High School to read this. Then read it again. I'd also like you to print it out and give about 1000 copies to anyone you know who is also in High School. This is to serve as fiar warning for all of you panzy-assed spoiled rotten zit-faced supposedly-intellectually-superior BMW driving, cell phone toting white kids in your designer jeans and angora sweaters who are contemplating the brilliant idea of strapping yourselves with a 9mm and shooting up some high school in your little corner of the world. Let me open your eyes a little... You think you have it tough because Buffy and Biff won't let you hang with them? Buffy and Biff don't mean dick in the grand scheme of things. If you remembered them 5 years after highschool, I would be amazed. I remember very little more than the names of about two dozen people from highschool, and those two dozen people weren't the ones who stuffed me into lockers (yes, I was one of those little dweebs who got picked on), they were the kids who let me know when the coast was clear to come out of the locker. You think, when other kids call you names, you are allowed to get mad? "Sticks and stones" ... cliche but so true. You don't like being called nerd, geek, dweeb, or fag? When you get to jail after being convicted of shooting up your school, "Bitch" will likely be your knickname and it won't be Buffy or Biff calling you that; more likely it will be some big ugly fucker who hasn't smelled a pussy since about the time you crawled out of one.
You actually believe that the "cool kids" don't feel picked-on sometimes? Fuck that! Every kid has problems from the nerdiest geek to the captain of the football team. Every socio-economic status, every step on the social ladder, every teen has self-esteem issues. You show me one teen who says he is happy with who they are and I'll show you a liar.
You think that being stuffed into a locker can ruin your day or even your week? Imagine having your head slammed into steel bars so that you will be unconscious and unable to scream when the brothers gang-bang you. Pretty boys on the outside are bitches behind bars. That, my friend, is a cold hard fact.
You think that you can solve all of your problems by putting a bullet in someone's head? Try doing what most adolescents do instead... torture a frog, kick a dog, toilet paper a house, make some prank phone calls (those seem to make kids feel powerfull), beat the shit out of a garbage can with a baseball bat, pull the wings off of a fly... do something, vent the rage but do it without involving others.
Every day we make choices that effect the path we will travel tomorrow. Why, at such a young age, would you choose the one path that guarentees unhappiness for the remainder of your life? The best revenge is living the good life. Today determines tomorrow and tomorrow is unwritten, ya dumb little bastards.
Being Canadian, I have also seen these news stories, radio call in shows and articles all saying bullying=school violence. I agree 100%. I have also sent a message to that washington post guy who wrote a similar article. We should send some emails to all these columnists and journalists to read this thread...and suggest they set it to level 3 for a cleaner read on the responses.
Blaming Guns for Columbine is like blaming Spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat.
Katz was making a comparative statement and thus should have used "than" (comparison) rather than "then" (subsequent in time).
CamShaft (whom I do not know) is making fun of Katz' apparent meaning that kids first kill themselves, then go on to kill others.
Good joke. I believe that this analysis will have extracted the last trace of humour from this thread.
Friedrich Nietzsche said something in German. I don't understand German (and I likely don't understand Nietzsche, either), but it translates roughly to "that which does not kill me makes me stronger" (not angrier).
Since he's dead, he's not getting any stronger. My advice is keep eating your vegetables and work on that whole anger management thing.
Theres an "essay" on this topic here too. it stands out because its from a young guys viewpoint, and the discussions are also from high school aged people. interesting to see their view on it, and what they think should be done.
However, around the age of 17 I tried to commit suicide by strangling myself with a scarf. Thankfully, my brother found me on the bed. I was blue in the face. It was around this time that I started to just not care what others think.
That is what it comes down to in the end. Young adolescents want desperately to be accepted, and yet they are at the most rejected and hurtful time of life. Everyone goes through this, nomatter if they are good looking, ugly, clever or stupid. There are no exceptions.
Since coming to america I have made frineds with a number of young people, especially amongst my Wiccan friends. I think that things here are worse for them than in Scotland; I would refuse to send a child of mine to a typical American High School. Here children are taught to confirm to societies ideals, and have the message of democracy and freedom and so on drummed into them ad nauseum. I hate the way there is an American Flag in every class. It is something like Maoist China.
Adolescents care not for these ideas. We should not pump them with the ideas of the founding fathers, for they will then turn against those ideas - it is clear they are doing this already. What we need to do is obey those ideals by not obsessively enforcing them. That is really the American way.
By bringing children up in a climate of forgiveness and learning, surrounded by ideals but not having those ideals rammed down their throat, by leading by example, we can again bring up happy contended generations, instead of tortured and cynical wretches - 'slasckers'.
We need to give these bullied kids non-lethal weapons to protect themselves. I'm thinking pepper spray, rubber bullets, shotguns with monofilament wound barrels firing sandbags.
I think once a bully realizes that they may be brought down by severe, but non-lethal means, they may change their tune.
And yes, I am American.
The US has a lot more restrictions on guns now than it ever had and yet kid violence involving guns is increasing. It was at least an order of magnitude easier for a kid to have access to a gun back in the fifties. There was almost no restriction on gun ownership back then. Yet there nothing happened in the 50s that came remotely close to the carnage that took place at Columbine and Santana.
Something else happened: the mass media and the government became stupid.
I've been to 2 really horrible places in my life...1 was public school the other was prison...
I liked prison better.
Heh, yup america's fucked.
(no there's not all the rapeings like in the movies, might get your head smashed in with a mop bucket though)
hopefully that taught you how to lead the kids you are trying to shoot.
Re-Read your post, then read your sig.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
I think there is a far difference between defending yourself and owning a semi/fully automatic rifle with armor piercing bullets.
My $0.02 CND
Yes, because someone else may have a knife, or a ball bat, or they may just be bigger and stronger than me.
Which is why I carry around a shoulder mounted small scale tactical nuclear weapon myself. Seriously though, at what point does the "mine is bigger than yours" stop? If I carry a knife I should be carrying a pistol, because someone might have a bigger knife. If I carry a pistol, hey, better get an UZI in case someone comes up to me with a desert eagle or some such thing.
My other concern in all this is no so much the protection aspect of it all, but what happens when you have your 40 guns and armor peircing bullets (of course, what happens when someone mugs you with 41 guns?) lying around the house and your kid plays with them. Or sneaks one out to show his friends? I have heard the "keep your ammo and gun separatly and locked up" and the "how can I protect myself when my gun is taken apart and in different parts of the house when the evil people come to invade my house" arguments. I agree with the latter of course, I've seen how kids play with things, and I *was* a kid, but I know that if my dad had a gun I probably would have snuck it out of the house if only to show off to my friends.
Dr. Kleck's research, which has been made highly visible by the NRA, shows that Americans use guns over 2,000,000 times each year in self-defense. Dr. Kleck is a liberal who set out to prove that gun ownership didn't help individuals, but he ended up proving the opposite.
No offense, but I trust this sort of research about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat
IMHO this is kinda an endless circle. I live in canada, don't own anything more dangerous than a hunting knife I take camping, and have never, ever needed anything more violent for any reason. I've never been mugged, shot at, stabbed, or had a gun pulled on me at a bar. But because in the states (for one) other people have guns, a fist fight could easily turn into a gun fight; and because there is that possibility, of course you have to own a gun too, or else you won't be the last one standing becuase the other guy surely has a gun. I can see people having guns for target shooting or hunting purposes, but if no one else had a gun, would you still need one for protection?
There is a difference between carrying a gun when you go to work in the city and carrying a gun when you're out in the bush :) I'm not saying there is no place for guns, I'm saying that there are places where there is no need for guns, or should be.
:\
I think one of the big problems with people is something addressed by a comment up above that said that people who have guns but don't know how to use them may as well not have them. If the young woman was carrying a gun but didn't know how to use it, it would have been a shiny plaything for the big kitty
Maybe I'm stupid and Canadian, but in an urban population with a decent sized police force, there should be no good reason for people to have to carry around weapons. I mean, Jesus, I remember driving in LA on vacation and seeing a cop in her squad car with the shotgun holster mounted right in the front seat. I mean, holy shit, that thing's loaded. I try not to think about how many loaded weapons there must be if I enter into a family restaraunt in the states with my kids.
Regarding the mounted shotgun, I think I've seen similar set ups up here (Vancouver). I gotta agree with you though, thinking about places like LA or Texas scare me, especially with people having license to carry concealed, or to carry period. Do you really need to wander down main street with a holster on your hip? This is the 21st century, not the damn wild west!
Police in areas have an extremely slow response time (30 minutes is typical). Hopefully (if you're still alive) you've regained consciousness by then...
And given the fact that the LAPD has been found guilty of planting evidence and framing people (to say nothing of the widespread incidents of police brutality across the US) it's no wonder that the police aren't trusted.
Guns don't kill people, gun culture kills people.
OK, someone from .ch correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it mandated there that every able-bodied citizen over the age of 18 have a gun (and be trained in the use thereof)? If that's the case, *why* isn't Switzerland mentioned as having a "gun culture"?
That seems to be the biggest problem in the cases of youth suicides. All the "conformist" types don't understand the "non-conformist" kids, so they feel the need to punish those who aren't like them, like it's a crime to not be just like them.
When I was in school, I went through some of the same sort of bullying that others (who've made comments here) have mentioned. Some people seem to think, "Oh, you're just pissed because not everyone wanted to be your friend." I would've been more than happy if people would've just left me alone. Why can't parents teach their kids to either try to learn about people who are different, or if nothing else, just leave them the hell alone? The old "If you can't say/do something nice" principle would be good. Unfortunately, most people can't just live and let live.
A quote I saw somewhere said something to the effect of "We are brought up to value that which is like us, and hate and fear that which isn't." That's our biggest problem as a society, IMO - too many of us hate and fear anything unfamiliar. Unfortunately, I don't know that we can change that. And if we can't, how long can our society last?
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
I think the number of shootings has gone way up because more and more desperate kids are seeing that as an option as it gets more visibility.
Inconceivable!
What is the lack of traditional Christian morals? Are there any morals that are non-Christian? Can an Atheist have morals? How about a Muslim?
I do agree with you on your other points, but I fail to see the why morals can only come from the "wholesome teachings of Jesus Christ".
Lerxst
K, I'm going to vent, spelling just went out the window!
You are sooo full of shit. At first I wanted to post anonymous, then I figured, why bother, your opinion is so lacking in fact it's sad.
It's ANTI-GUN CULTURE in a gun filled society that KILLS. A purely statistical study will show you that, if you READ THE STATS, not interpet them. When you ban more guns in areas that have lots of guns, crimes go up. Simple. Sure, ban them in places without guns, and you will get crime to go down...because you CAN ban them.
Please read Jefferson or Adams on this, or don't even discuss the US. The US was DEFINED by an intent to have a MILLITA, not a military. The people were INTENDED to AT ALL TIMES be able to overpower ANY government, ESPECIALLY OUR OWN!
What's sad is, today, it's 1/2 there. We have the guns, dreams of freedom, but we also have the &$*(#! liberal politicians and a standing military. A bad combination. Not what was intended. It's not one good way, or the other good way, it's the middle road, with the worst of both and the best of none!
Fucking Canadians... Like you have a CLUE what makes a country work... Yea, I can see your absolute dominance... Fix your own problems before you tell us what to do.
BTW, TO GO BACK ON TOPIC. I had a HK91 when I was 15. I had a Browning HighPower when I was 12. I had my first shotgun when I was 8. I was a outcast geek. I -KNEW- what guns were, and respected the fact that they were capable of taking lifes.
I had teen rage, hate, lonelyness, isolation, depression..... But, I also had a family that TAUGHT ME, life is valuable, no matter how small or insignificant, and you fight to survive, not fight to destroy. The harm you bring to others is harm you bring to your own very sole. Hehehehe... Call it Karma if you want... I guess that's what it is.
The POTENTIAL of guns to do this devistation is there, sure... But, that doesn't mean it's justification, and it's fucking down right LAME to use guns as a scapegoat for this whole thing. And that's what your doing.
The kids are screwed up. On thier own, or due to peer pressure, hard to say... THAT is the problem. NOT the guns. Hell, I'd RATHER they have the guns, what's the other option? Bombs? Given the choice, I'd rather the other kids had a fighting chance... Maybe you would rather see them just blow up tens or hundreds of kids at a time? Little Tim McV's blowing up shit?
It's a bad craftsman who blames his tools....
Thanks :-)
Like what? fighting back?
Or did you mean that they don't have gasoline or bombs in your parrell universe?
Noticed you... But... two things. I already posted, so I can mod this thred. Second, I don't see the connection. Family, peer pressures, drugs, and political confusion about "who should teach our children, parents, a community, or the government" all have WAY more to do with it than art.
You obviously don't, and can't understand the culture. not your fault. you just don't live here, don't understand Adams, Jefferson, American history, and the reason things are like this.
There is a long, deeply seated reason our society had guns. It won't change in 1 year, 5 years, 20 years, or probably 100 years. Since you don't understand that... Your best just not saying anything, because it's both unrealistic, and against the founding goals of the country.
But... To each his own.. that's why there are diffrent countries. Just be glad society is mobile enouth to give you more choices of where to live in the world than any time in history, yet there are still boundries to keep ways of life seperated.
thanks, but no thanks. It's not the guns. I seem to remember a number of things in the course of recent history that were far more nasty than Americans with Guns. China, Moscow, Germany, ... Just look around the world.
Tip to outsiders... You do realize Americans brought you Hollywood, right? Americans can over dramitize things in mass media better than ANYONE. But if we could get our reporters in the parts of the world where REAL tragities happened, you wouldn't even be able to remember that we still have Cowboy's and Indian's (figure of speach... actually, those two groups now probably get along better than any other two in modern society!)
You do have some point in there though. Since WWII, two income families are common place, and family values (eek buzz word) have declined. All for the sake of "keeping up with the neighbors" to have a newer car, bigger house, with more distant children... But. I don't buy your sources.
Just a guess... Did you vote for Nader? Sound like you should have. Oh. BTW. I disagree, I think you may be trying to controling behavior by regulation and policy rather than preventing it through education and knowing your children... Your way may very likely lead to rebelion in children. Just a note since you do have kids. I've seen it happen to others.
PS: Chris, btw, I do think your right about some things, and give you a lot of credit for putting TIME with the kids high on your list of priorities. It's just the "I wouldn't let this happen" tone that strikes me wrong... Teens tend to push limits, and when you give them too many, they push harder... It's a balancing act, I'm sure you know. You have to be the enforcer, but somehow keep from being the enemy. Tough thing to do (and frankly, since your interested in doing it, your probably in the top 10% of parents by todays standards).
Sure, any day. you do know there are more people here right? Say, can we add China and Russia to the list? They ban guns too!
I can't believe that people in Canada, Australia, or the UK can HONESTLY believe that they can compare their cultures to ours.... I guess you forgot that we INTENDED to be diffrent, going back more than 200 years? Afraid of choice?
Why not just say "Your just like us, only you have guns, so, get rid of them and you will have less problems like us." That's what your saying, only in clear words, where we can all see exactly where and why you are soo soooo wrong.
Hehehahahaha .. My god man... Now your saying that trampling on people's rights is an acceptable solution?
PS: a $500 permit allows you to own a fully automatic weapon here. It's called a "Class III Licence." No test either. Rocket launchers, I don't know, haven't known anyone that wanted one.
Uhm... Not to raise a sore point, but, I believe the US and Australians have about as distant origins as possable. One was a controled state at it's origin (prison colony), the other was men fighting to be free of all control. Gee, and you wonder why we look at things diffrently?
>Maybe because the police force is for the most part reactive, not proactive?
So? What do you expect them to do? Walk two paces behind known villains till they do a crime?
I don't know about Canada, but it is well-established precedent in the US that the police force does not exist to prevent crime. Deter by threat of punishment, yes. But every citizen is responsible for his or her own safety. The cops aren't required to come to the aid of someone in distress. They have to do their darndest to track down whoever did the deed, but stopping a crime in progress is not their responsibility.
OK, so how do you propose coming to the point where no one else has guns? Seriously. I'd like to know.
Also, consider that, if the person next to you at the bar might be armed, would you be as likely to take a swing at her? Or even be overly rude?
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some of our readers might find the novel
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There are a few problems with this idea. The first problem is that there is a difference between moral teachings and religious teachings. I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that what you want to do is use the latter as a vehicle for the former; a laudable and acceptable goal, if that is as far as you go. Any further, and you start trampling on other people's spiritual beliefs, which gets you in trouble, even in America.
The main problem as I see it is that religion is the ultimate cop-out as an argument favoring moral behaviour. A moral guideline would be one like "don't kill people". The thing is, the innocent (ie children) and the selfish (ie everyone else) immediately question that guideline with a "why? what gives that guideline the strength to limit my actions?" And let's face it, the answer if you kill people you will go to hell (ie because god says so) is a lot simpler, straightforward, and defensible than any non-secular argument. It means that we stop reasoning with our peers (for that is what our spiritual leaders used to be, and should be) and start threatening their perceptions of their immortality and spiritual future.
Religion probably originated at least partially in response to this need -- the enlightened saw that we needed to be nice to each other and help each other (ie, not killing each other and having sex with other people's spouses), and attributing these commandments to the powerful beings (gods) that had already been invented to deal with the messy question of "where did we all come from and why are we here?" was a useful way to bring those less able to have a reasoned argument in line.
We definitely need some way of teaching moral behavior. If religion can be curbed from the borg-like assimilative behaviour which many religions indulge in, it might be an acceptable way. But I am definitely not holding my breath.
--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
Secondly, that is how it was explained to me -- don't sin or go to hell. The arguments about whether or not my sins are already paid for (ie in advance -- if so, then who cares what I do? it's paid for! AK47s for everyone!) stray too far into the particulars of any given religion for my tastes.
Finally, having not seen the inside of a school for ten years, I really can't tell you what the kids are reading today. I can tell you that Nietzsche sure wasn't on my reading list -- unless it was in one of the 68000 appendicies I skipped.
--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
Clearly people aren't being teased for being depressed per se, but depression manifests itself physically. Depressed people are often more withdrawn (which makes them stand out for not being 'involved'), and more importantly are sensative to teasing and bullying. They respond.
/.) you are a geek.
If you have ever bullied or been bullied, you know that it's all done for the response, if someone seems not to hear the bullying or doesn't react, the bully loses interest, they aren't a good target anymore. Someone who is depressive or has low self-esteem reacts in the 'best' way possible, they are visibly affected by what they are subjected to, in fact with any luck they cry, that is paydirt! Then it becomes a recurring cycle. The more they react, the more they are bullied. The more they are bullied, they more depressed they become.
Kids suffering from depression are really hard to deal with - think about it, up until 5 or 6 you were a carefree kid, you played in the dirt and did what you wanted.
Then comes school, it's a fairly hard transition, but early schooling isn't too hard, the little groups haven't formed yet, and it's still kinda fun.
You're about eight now, it's getting more difficult, school isn't fun anymore, it's work, and there is presure to conform -- to be cool.
Now, hear is where it happens, at about 10, you are either 'in' or you aren't. If you are not, it's probably because (at least for the people on
Depending on your environment it heads in one of two ways...
1) You don't take it to heart, you find your own friends, with similar interests and the rest of them can be damned.
2) You start to feel ashamed of being different, you become sensitive to the opinions of others in this matter, you try to fit in, but get knocked back all the way.
If you take the second path it is a lot harder to stay strong and maintain your will. If you look up to others, who in turn ridicule you, you're going to be shattered.
I have been through this, I started on the second path, but realised soon enough that it was simply making me unhappy. I had enough self-confidence to follow my own desires, be damned what anyone else thinks.
In New Zealand, where I live, guns are more tightly controlled, hand guns are nearly impossible to get and assult weapons are all but illegal. We don't have school shootings.
We do however have the second highest teenage suicide rate in the world.
School for me was hell, at least once I discovered there was more to life that sports. I stopped fitting in to the cool group and was immediately at the bottom of the food chain.
I count myself incredible lucky to be very strong willed and have good self-esteem, because otherwise I would have been destroyed by school.
What I don't understand is why *I* didn't turn out to kill anyone when I was young. I mean, I played "violent" video games, I was picked on unmercifully by other kids because I was/am a nerd. It upset me a great deal, but I never even once thought about shooting anyone. I've never really ever been a violent person. Even playing Quake 2 every day now, it's never been a thought to fill someone full of lead. The "experts" comback may be to say that not everyone reacts that way to the violent video games, TV, etc. But, I'm of a different opinion. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The world is violent. Take away violent video games, TV, media, you still have parents beating their kids, bullies, teachers beating/mentally abusing their students, child molesters. The list goes on. The problem is not what children have to deal with, it is that we're not equipping our children to deal with these issues. That is why I did not go out and shoot anyone. I was equipped with enough self-esteem and knowledge to know what was right and wrong, and how to deal with things that seemed impossible to deal with. That's what kids need. They don't need to have their harmless hobbies taken away because adults don't know what to do. This will probably only frustrate our children more, and, since we're not teaching them properly, they'll probably start adding us to the list of people they shoot.
Instant Karma's gonna get you...
The only way to deal with bullies is to just develop thick skin. Just ignore them, don't give them any gratification for their taunts. Let the fight be one-sided. And go find a group of people that do appreciate you, dammit. When we were in high school, we had a group called "Nerds by Choice," and it was a nice place to just hang out and be geeky without getting ridiculed by others. We were often derided and even censored by the school's administration, but it helps a lot if you're not the only one :P .
Before that I was often depressed and would spend lots of time sulking contemplatively to myself. But I developed strategies to get through the hard years. Suicide was never an option; if I couldn't live a good life, it would be fun to at least live a spectacularly bad one, even if it hurt :P .
Christians, Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Satanists, Agnostics, and Athiests, are all the same in one way or another - they have good people in them... and they have people who are assholes. Being of any particular religious sect doesnt make you a good person or a bad person... it simply makes you part of that belief system... it may or may not have morals that you take upon yourself. It can hurt or help your mental state. In the end each person must be judged individually... because a simplistic 2d label with a religious name on it doesnt adaquetely describe your entire being.... or even morals.
Shadus
heh the real answer is - well lemme tell a story...
I walk into one of my hs friends house, black eye, severely bruised face.
he goes, "Shit man... that looks like it hurts"
i go, "yah a bit"
he goes, "So what happened?"
i go, "Denny. again."
he goes, "So why dont you fight back?"
I go, "Because i dont want my ass kicked worse"
he goes, "Trust me man... it doesnt get much worse than that... theres that and dead... and i've fought him... hes not bad enough to make you dead without a weapon."
I go, "easier said than done."
he goes, "Look at it this way man, its gonna hurt either way... might as well pay him in spades... get that one groin punch in, or take a big hunk of meat out of his shoulder with a bite, make him think twice before he wants to beat your ass again."
i go, " yah whatever"
but... about 2 weeks later as im laying on the ground getting my face beat in that thought comes to mind as im blacking out and i took a big bite out of his groin. last time i got a beating from him. and for a change, the school actually did something since i hurt HIM... when i just "took it" they never did anything... we both got suspended... but at least they did *something*.
Shadus
Actually not, i've been in companies that opened and closed every meeting with a prayer... which i wouldnt participate in because of my religious beliefs. The largest of the companies was about 1500 employees total. Not huge but definetly in the middle->large range.
Shadus
smirk, i think being a bigot against drugs without having experienced them is stupid ;)
honestly tho - dont knock things till you try em... that pretty much rides for everything in life...
the 'if its different that what i think its obviously bad.' shit is what leads to alot of the bs in schools.
Shadus
Jaa, i came fractions of an inch from wigging out in highschool and going columbine... the only thing that stopped me was a *very* supportive mother and a few other outcasts i hung around with would go on a 'bully stomping spree' if they started bothering me to much... even so... by graduation i was tettering on the line... i *wanted* to kill them at the time... 6mo after i was outta school i was like 'wtf was i thinking... my god that time sucked, but im having fun now.' In the end i think that was the important thing to learn and my mother told it to me and my friends - 'highschool sucks, people do one of two things - love it or hate it. Just finish and i guarentee the rest of your life will be 100x better than that time.' I do miss some of my friends from hs... but those were undoubtedly the worst times of my life.
Shadus
yah everyone reported it to the teachers - including me... but but but they cant suspend the highschool star quarterback!! *shrug*. People can only be beat so many times and have so much ignored... if good parenting/friends arent there to provide backup and release of some kind... eventually people will snap.
Shadus
your right... you never hear about rev's children going loco... now the daughters sleeping with the entire school because her father doesnt have enough time for her is pretty common... but not going loco. (I am not saying that sleeping with alot of people is wrong - Nothing is wrong with sexual experiementation so long as your careful not to have kids before your ready and you take precautions to not catch diseases.)
Shadus
> In fact, guns are far more difficult to get than they've ever been.
This is so false. Guns these days are everywhere. 200 years ago, or 100 years ago guns were expensive, and poorly built. Owning a gun was a really, really big deal, and they weren't half as lethal as they are today.
There were probably half a dozen guns in my house when I was growing up, and they were practically different machines compared to a 200 year old gun.
No one imagined 200 years ago that "arms" would come to mean devices that could wipe out all life on earth. But we've reached that point today, and we've made the decision that not every hot-head on the block should have The Button on their remote control. Because someone will be stupid enough to use it.
The right to "arms" has already been abridged. At this point it's only a matter of arguing about where that line is drawn.
Interesting sig, considering the subject matter. :)
Hmm. How true.
Absolutely true, and absolutely unfortunate.
I only mention it to make people who may not be aware that it *can* happen, not that it *always* happens.
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Many people here disagree with the premise of the piece, and with my writings about it. Also I find mainstream media responsible for much of this stereotyping, and feel odd pitching them on ideas like this..It has a patronizing feel.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Hello, Copyleft? I would buy a vehicle, just for the chance to put that bumper sticker on it these days. Get in touch with jmahler's brother, and tart printing these.
Teach your kids: "C++ made baby Jesus cry."
I very much doubt that government action is going to solve this problem. This issue is one of spiraling decline. When a society starts to degrade, it creates a looped process that just continues downward adinfintum, UNLESS there is some sort of action that breaks this spiral.
You ask what is my suggestion to break this cycle? I'm not sure how to influence the entire population of this country with out simultaniously(SP?) violating their civil rights. I have some ideas, ut nothing working yet, when I have something good I'll run for office. Until then, I'll live a good life and be an example unto others.
Rule of Life Number 2: Remember, it can all go to hell at any minute. --Jimmy Buffet
Another thing that bothers me is the lack of traditional Christian morals that are being instilled in today's youth. You never hear about a Reverand's son or a child of a devoutly religious family shooting up a school.
No, but I've heard of plenty of altarboys who were abused by priests. Newfoundland, CA, ring any bells?
I believe part of it may be a lack of moral techings; I don't believe that Christian morals are any better than those of most of the other major religions (but then again, I'm not Christian myself).
I agree with you however, that part of it is a distinct pressure in today's society to not take responsibility for your own actions; instead, it's society's fault you're a killer!
Whatever.
It also speaks of a time when education was somewhat less inclusive. I believe you'll find even today that the exclusive schools tend to have low levels of gun violence.
It may not be entirely true, but the proliferation of firearms in the US certainly increases the resulting carnage when a kid does finally lose the plot. A gun can give an option to a kid who thought he had no options... you've just got to push them far enough to make it an option and, provided they have access, its all over. Disclaimer: Yes, I'm Australian. Yes, our government places severe restrictions on gun ownership. It's called democracy... get over it! And NO... I can't remember the last time a kid went on a shooting spree in an Australian school. We look at the US and shake our heads in amazement and sorrow.
'sapientia potestas est'
Instead, why not work to make sure your kids don't become another brick? Teach them something they can love. Teach them to love life and to live it as an individual. Teach them to thirst for betterment of themselves and perhaps in a few years you can have a "Proud parent of a honour roll student" and have it actually mean something.
Everything your kids know will come from you for a while... don't waste the chance to give them what they need to love life.
They weren't ingenious enough to set us up the bomb.
pooptruck
I always thought it was:
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."
--
Delphis
Delphis
Katz is, perhaps rightly, pointing a finger of derrission at the populist tripe offered as a "solution" to the "problem" of school shootings. He is correct to point out that the "solution" is being bandied about without regard to any actual data that suggests a positive correlation between what is being tauted as the "cause" and the events that society is attempting to stop.
Problematically, for his argument, is that in the next breath he does the same thing.
There are likely a number of correlate causes that combine to cause kids to choose to solve their problems through violence -- be that violence aimed at themselves or at others. And anyone who has been in a large public school knows that the institutionalization that occurs there is oppressive and disturbing on a number of levels. Clearly there are problems. However, offering "solutions" that have no proven, established relationship to the problem is not likely to do much in terms of stopping the problem.
Further, the "problem" is of a questionable seriousness, depending on what you think the "problem" is. School shootings, for example, are not a big issue in this country. They are a big media attraction, but kids have been shooting other kids since the arrival of arms in this country. Adjusted for population changes, lethal violence in the schools is on the decline, not on the rise. Schools remain one of the safest places for kids to be to not get shot. And that level of safety is actually increasing over time, not decreasing.
Kids have suffered from depression for a long time as well. We may be better equiped to diagnose and treat such things today, and the result may be that we are "seeing" more depressed kids. However, that doesn't say that depression is on the increase. Are schools creating environments where depression flourishes or where depression is simply better diagnosed and recognized? We really don't know.
The one point that Katz makes that we should all be concerned about is the number of communities, small though it is, that are starting to pass "anti-bullying" legislation. Folks, here's a clue, assult, battery, threats of violence, emotional abuse, and the like are already illegal. The laws to stop bullying are already in place. Schools already have the administrative authority to set disciplinary standards that allow them to remove the problem kids from the classroom environment. They already have the legal backing to send the real problem kids to jail. That isn't being done now not because of a lack of anti-bully laws, but because the schools want as many kids as possible.
The schools are given money based on the number of butts in chairs. If you, as an administrator, remove one of those rear-ends, you cut your opperating budget. There is a strong fiscal preassure to keep as many kids in school on a daily basis as possible. This fiscal preassure means that unless you have a high probability of facing legal threats that will cost you more than the amount of money you get per kid, you aren't going to get rid of a kid. This method of financing schools is a real problem, seperate and distinct from the issue of violance and the root causes thereof, in that the administration is forced to choose between appropriate disciplinary policies and funding. Until this fiscal dilemna is removed, no school has any real hope of instituting and maintaining disciplinary codes that strongly discourage bullying in any form.
AdamHaun said:
.22 caliber rifle for $12!
""You say that guns are far more "difficult" to get today, but I have to wonder if that's entirely true. Yes, there are more laws regulating possesion of guns, but guns are also cheaper and in wider availability than, say, 50 years ago""
This comment is SO incredibly offbase that it's hard to believe you said it with a straight face.
50 years ago you could buy handguns or rifles and walk home with them with no age limits or strange
responses from passers by. And they were incredibly cheap compared to today's prices. (Even
accounting for inflation)
for example. in 1951 you could mail-order direct
from Sears a JC Higgins
Direct to your door with no background check or anything... can you find easier availability than
that now?
... because they're saying the same thing you are.
It's all about values and responsibility.
I know, if you're a (liberal|conservative), it's really easy to say that it's all the fault of the (($1 eq "conservative")? liberals : conservatives). After all, they're the 'them' in "'us' vs. 'them'". But when you look at what people have to say, it seems to me that both sides are in agreement. People need to take responsibility.
So lighten up on liberals. They're not the enemy.
There are at least two alarming trends at work here. The first is peoples' unwillingness to take responsibility for anything. The second is the increasing trend to prosecute children as adults. If you prefer, you can say that the second is the criminalization of medical or psychological problems. Either way, the second grows out of the first.
It's time for a change. It's time to stop letting grown adults abdicate their responsibility and accountability for every little thing to the legislature and courts. The government has a responsibility to prevent unscrupulous businesses and individuals from screwing you. It does not have a responsibility to raise your children for you, or catch your bottle every time you drop it. Some countries have "common sense" statutes -- if ever there was one that needed them, it's the US.
Part of accepting your responsibility as an adult is guardianship of those who lack the ability to take care of themselves; namely, children. (You may, at your discretion, substitute "drug addicts" or "mentally disabled".) Call me callous, but children are animals. Their behavior is only as good as the training they receive from parents (or, in cases of neglect, parental surrogates like teachers, church members, or gang leaders).
It's very easy to say that a 13-year-old should know that you're not supposed to kill people. Sure, but who's teaching them that, television? The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree. If your kid doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, you know where I'm going to be looking for negligence. John Carmack, right? WWF Wrestling? Not hardly. My finger's pointed straight at your nose.
I'm sure no politician will EVER support this, because it directly threatens their best power base, the upper-middle-class, suburban, white, self-righteous hypocrites of America, but...
The only way to keep kids from becoming killers is for their parents to raise them properly. And the only way that's ever going to happen is if we hold parents accountable for their actions. As in, if you stick that thing in there, you're in it for the next 25+ years. As in, if a child kills someone, the child goes in for psychiatric care, and the PARENT GOES TO PRISON.
There's a couple in San Francisco right now who are facing 2nd degree murder charges for the actions of their dogs. Right on! Let's keep this ball rolling.
Ahh, I suppose it probably depends on the commercials or trailers that you saw. I like the trailers that they put on the DVD, but the only thing that I remember from when it was in the theaters is Tyler going through the rules and having the impression that it was going to be a movie like RoadHouse (if you've never seen it, you've never watched a Turner network) but with hipper actors. I didn't even want to see it, I was badgered into it by an ex-girlfriend who was a huge fan. I relented by getting her to in exchange watch Raising Arizona, so it turned out well. I'll keep an eye out for the book.
Cheers,
Ahhh, duh, I shoulda realized that. I'm a -1 reader for life, so I forget that not everybody gets to read the great stuff down here.
On a side note, don't you think that Fight Club was one of the most poorly marketed movies ever? I didn't see it in theaters, had no desire to based on the ads, but after seeing it on video, went out and immediately bought the DVD, which is heavy on cool features.
Cheers,
Just curious, but why do you keep talking about the first post? The first post was some all your base/stickboy silliness, the second was ripping on Katz, and then came yours, which is why your post says "(#3)" after the date.
Not to burst your bubble or anything — I don't want you grabbing a gun and taking it out on the rest of us. :)
Cheers,
Dang, if a cops shotgun in their car freaked you out you should try going to Ireland. I was in western Ireland for a few weeks (Ballina to be exact) and happened to be around when they were delivering the money to the banks. There must have been about 20 military people on the streets each with assault rifles (not big on guns so I don't know what they were exactly). Needless to say there were no bank robberies that day.
Q.
I'm impressed at the determination of these kids!
If they really kill themselves, THEN kill others, it speaks well of the next generation's ability to get things done when they set their mind to it!...
Copy editor?
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Statics show that the average American is exposed to dozens of acts of violence every night on television. Almost never is the perpetrator nor the victim a child. So when we hear of a man who shot a 14 year old, we may get angry. I say "may" because there were four incidents of such violence in the newspaper this morning, and none of them were front page news. On the contrary, if the police report section wasn't in the paper, we'd have heard nothing about it at all. Even those who read it shook their heads... and moved on to the comics.
But when a child kills, we sit up. The idea that a child is supposed to be this idyllic, wide-eyed and wondering being whose potential is unlimited and whose promise is still great, is embedded in the public psyche. And when that being turns out to be a murderer, and his or her victims are other children, well, our vision of reality just had a train wreck. And we react in horror. Hence the harsher justice.
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha
6 on one, half dozen on the other. Guns have just been hollywood-ized as the great equalizer in America through movies. That's why they are the tool of choice for these wackos. Without guns, they'd make bombs, or run people down with cars, or stab their parents, suffocate someone as they slept, or use poison, ... ad infinitum.
I know this is cheeze-ass advice, but it's SO true: Just be yourself. Generally, yourself is a very likable person, while the image you try to portray is not. I know it worked for me, when I started letting people know the real me I was so embarassed about, I found out that they weren't so different themselves.
And the choir said amen.The difference between a child who crosses the line and one who does not is usually parents. One of the kids who should have crossed the line but did not was also one of the kids killed at Columbine. It was interesting reading how far she had gone before getting turned around (only to be killed).There is too much material out there that points to how wrong our system is with regards to the parent child relation, but it gets ignored because that would be meddling in people's lives. Instead, we in the US have allowed other types of meddling to go on unquestioned and in some cases "above the law." We have sacrificed family and values, thus we have sown the seeds of our own distruction.In raising my own 2 children, I have noticed that violence occurs most often when one them wants more attention. Violence is a mechanism regularly used by children to get the attention they want whether or not the attention they receive is positive or negative. Parents are usually the ones who can have the biggest influence on what happens next.
In a place beyond time and space, in a land far better than this, look for me there...
Take a look on how the adults in US government are bullying other countries, and it seems to me that bullying is rooted in the American culture. (Yes, I ain't an American, and always view the whole thing from outside...)
That's not unique to American though. There's some evidence that when a country get rich, bullying starts to appear more. Maybe that's a way to show who has the power. Or a way to protect the existing wealth before anybody in the weak side rise?
I don't know, but changing a culture is not an easy task, especially when you need to change the behaviour of adults first.
Without demand, there's nobody supplying. Violence entertainment is there because there's demand.
A sig is redundant.
not only is the universe stranger than you imagine,
it's stranger than you are capable of imagining
As upheld in court, the Police are NOT responsible for protecting an individual citizen. They are for the protection of society.
Basically, someone was being attacked, and someone called the police, and the police didn't show up in time to stop the person from being killed. The family sued the police, and they LOST, because the police were under no obligation to protect that individual citizen.
That is why I own and carry a gun.
--- witty signature
"Guns don't kill people - I do." - UHF
The way I see it, here are the problems with the anti-gun philosophy:
1. Making laws only stops honest people. If someone wants to get a gun for use in committing a crime (murder, armed robbery, etc.), then they'll get one regardless of whether it's legal or not. The same is true of any outlawed item or substance (alcohol, drugs, etc.). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that outlawing the possession of items makes them more attractive to many people (especially "rebellious" young people).
That reminds me: why do liberals want to legalize marjiuana for non-medicinal use but make gun ownership illegal? I don't get it!
2. The problem with gun deaths is not guns, but the people that pull the trigger. If someone wants to kill somebody, they're going to do it - regardless of the tool they use to do so (guns, baseball bats, rocks, bare hands).
3. Accidental gun deaths can be prevented by education/information. Legitimate gun owners need to be taught responsible gun ownership (such as keeping them properly stored away from children, and teaching children responsibility and respect in dealing with guns). We already do the same thing with hazardous household chemicals, automobiles, power tools, etc. Why should guns be any different?
4. If more honest people were to carry guns, people would be less motivated to commit crimes using them, since merely possessing a gun would not give the potential criminal as much of an advantage.
I'm not a radical pro-gun activist or anything (I don't even own a gun or know many people that do), but I do believe that laws are a poor substitue for personal responsibility, as the former can only be used to punish those who have already comitted a crime.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
-----
*school shooting*
Media: "Someone shot people at school because he was being bullied."
Government: "I wonder if violent video games and/or TV had anything to do with it?"
Everyone: "Who knows?"
*time passes*
*school shooting*
Media: "Someone shot people at school because he was being bullied."
Government: "I wonder if violent video games and/or TV had anything to do with it?"
Everyone: "Who knows?"
*time passes*
(repeat ad infinitum)
-----
Is anyone else getting as sick and tired of this crap as I am? When will people realize that it's the schools and parents themselves that are the problem and not guns, video games, or TV shows? What really pisses me off is the way everyone reacts the same way every time, never learning anything about how to _really_ prevent it from happening the next time.
The media: gives school shootings tons of air-time to get good ratings.
The government: jumps in with a money-intensive bandaid to line their pockets some more while accomplishing nothing important.
The people: run around like chickens with their head cut off, gobbling up every piece of crap thrown to them by the previous two groups mentioned.
This happens with almost every "shocking" occurance these days, and it really ticks me off. I hold all three groups accountable for such shameful, pitiful, STUPID behavior.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
Man I wish I could mod you up....
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Polizei is a German word. When I lived in Germany, the typical Polizei officer drove in a green and white Opal w/ blue lights on the roof. They usually wore tan uniforms and carried Glock sidearms. In airports, they may be seen with submachine guns.
I wonder what they were doing in Spain.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Personally, I think a big problem in society is that kids no longer learn to deal with pain/strife/suffering.
These days we want the best for our children. Which is fine. But maybe we're doing too good of a job. We prevent the child from any 'negative' exposure. And then when the child finally get's some 'negative' exposure (bully, school problems, girl problems, puberty, etc) they dont know how to handle it. So they overreact. They have no basis to judge how bad something is.
It's like if you had spent all your life somewhere warm. Where it never get's below 60F. The first time you go somewhere it's 40F, you say "DAMN it's cold!"
So what if I'm a child who's always gotten what I wanted, never hurt myself, always been loved/cared for/pampered at home, always succeeded, and now.. I fail/someone picks on me/I don't understand girls BAM! this is the worst event ever in my life.
As a corralation. Science recently showed that babies exposed to allergins don't get allergies. While babies not exposed do get allergies.
I wasn't "not listening", you didn't say that. You lashed out with a poorly constructed argument, not being at all specific which of my contentions you were disputing.
If you don't want to have a civil discussion, fine. Just don't be surprised when you don't get anywhere with your poor debating skills.
A miniscule percentage of ANY population decides to take out other people. My point still stands: If a person is pushed to the breaking point by harassment, then a) killing oneself b) killing others and c) doing both are all symptoms of the same problem. You're the one trying to make an issue of the relative sizes of these groups, which is totally irrelevant to my point.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Are you arguing my definition of "killer"?
I'm saying that the kind of despair that leads to one can also lead to the other. Is that so hard to imagine?
If I'd resolved to die, I'd just as soon take out my tormentors with me. Doesn't that make sense? Why not?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Dude, ease down. Nobody's accusing you of anything. Take a deep breath!
ALL of the shooters in the recent school "massacres" complained of being harassed at school. ALL teen suicides complain of ostracism and harassment at school. How is it that you do not see that there must be a common denominator here?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Someone who kills themself is by definition, a "killer". There's a very narrow line between "I'm going to kill myself" and "I'm going to take all of these assholes to hell with me".
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
The problem with this article is that bullying has been around forever, and school shootings are a new phenomenon. If anything, availability of guns has decrecreased to the average high school student. Katz's conjecture doesn't hold up, though it is attractive; it would be great if we could just point all the blame to a single factor, but of course, we can't. It's a combination of many factors, many of which probably haven't ever been considered yet.
Don't send anybody with a math bent to an actuarial firm or a bank! Accounting is mind-numbing and has nothing to do with math.
Send kids with an interest in math and science to a school with an interest in math and science. I'm from Germany, and I was lucky that in my city there is such a school. We weren't 30 kids in a room (more like 20), and we had teachers who cared--for their field as well as for us. You might think that this place was sort of a geek ghetto, but I don't think it was. In retrospect, I think that the university i'm at now could actually learn from that school.
Typical problem with America - blame-shifting. Gotta find a scapegoat, ya know, our kids couldn't be that fucked up in the head.
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
FC Closer
you guys really need some balls.
Even in a large city the police are not going to always respond quickly enough. As a matter of fact the traffic, call volume, and number of officers on the street are widely varriable from day to day. I live in an incoprorated city but its not urban, there are mostly vacant lots around me and as a law enforcement officer I listen to my police radio and know that most evenings there are calls holding for availble officers for 30, 40, 50 minutes sometimes longer. Last night there was an attempted kindnapping about 1 mile from my home - officers were availalbe and responded within 3-4 minutes. There were K9 units in 10 or so and a helicopter from the Sheriff in about 25. The suspect escaped - the police never saw him but a neighbor heard one of the girls scream and confronted the suspect who let them go and fled. The bottom line is the police can't be everywhere (and we don't want them everywhere) and it is well settled case law that they have no duty to protect any citizen.
I feel that we are becoming a society of victims - everything is someone else's fault. I prefer to take responsibility for my actions and for my own safety and well being. Every one of our personal freedoms comes with a responsibility. We see more and more government involvemnet in our daily lives becasue of the people that refuse to take care of themselves.
As for your shotgun comment: 1. If its not loaded it dosn't do the officer any good. 2. I have never seen a gun go off in the rack/holster on its own accord they incorporate safety devices to prevent that from happening.
For the resturant: LA has some of the most restrictive carry rules around. An ordinary person cannot get a permit to carry there. Why were you scared? Obviously since there are strict laws nobody in there had a gun because the laws are so restrictive - if you disagree with that then you agree that the laws don't make a difference and the criminals will still have the guns.
i agree with reality master, but i would liek to expand a little bit... i *know* that the main problem is not video games, or tv, or even guns themselves; the problem is education. so many parents these days are freaked out about guns in general that they are afraid for their kids to even learn about them (guns can kill things, therefore they are *bad*). i have grown up hunting with my dad since i was 12; i took a hunter's saftey course when i was 11 (i'm 23 now). if you are educated about guns, you learn the permanence of what you can do with them. when you shoot something, it dies...forever. you also learn gun saftey. you won't find me looking down the barrel of a shotgun because i don't know what is down there; i also will never store a firearm that is still loaded and will check the chamber to see if a gun is loaded when someone hands one to me. how many kids who have had gun saftey courses do you think have been involved in playing-with-gun accidents? not very many. education is the issue, not anything else - our society will become safer, have less gun-related accidents, and *many* less adolescent-aged shootouts if we start requiring gun safety classes in middle school.
wally
...and it's the same in every rich country in the world. Except Canada, with its peculiar neighbor...
-- Colin
It's not the school bullying the snapper, it's the classmates. Burn them, maybe...
-- Colin
Obviously shes a Satanist. Thank Eris those good Cristians were there to show her the error of her ways.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Those were good christian girls, just having grandma killed for Christ.
Joan of Arc, good Christian girl, killing all them folks for god. I mean the VOICES told her to do it so it must be right.
YOUR god is not the answer to OUR problems.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
The government can do something. Mandatory REVERSIBLE sterilization at 9 years old. Down the road, once you reach the mandatory minimum age for parenting, have applied for a licence, have completed all the courses and testing, have been through relationship counseling and have committed to a mate, then and only then, the government will temporarily re-instate your fertility. Think of the side benefits, no abortion issue etc. etc.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
Why are non-American kids not blowing away their classmates?
Or for that matter, why has this started in the U.S.? I don't think it used to be that common. Part of it is that the current situation has been blown out of proportion. If you listen to the media, there are millions of school kids walking around out there intent on killing or blowing up their school. That's just not the case. I actually heard of some first graders who were suspended for playing cops and robbers because "they were making threats against students".
However, there really are a few students who have carried out threats which scares the hell out of us as a society. In the U.S., we want to keep our kids as innocent as the day they were born until they're legal adults. It's almost incomprehesible that there could be these devils amongst our innocent. So what happened?
For the last 20 years or so (or more if depending on how far back you want to follow the trend), I have observed that many parents have been failing to teach responsibility and consequences. They claim that any negative feedback damages their child's self-esteem and that they want to be their child's friend. I certainly wouldn't assert that most students lack a grasp on responsibility and consequences, but a few who do would be more likely to bring in a gun and use it.
What to do about it? I don't have an answer, but I think taking a real hard look at what is different between the present generation of students and prior ones should be a starting point.
-Jennifer
Why oh why do kids kill others and themselves more frequently than they used to?
The answer is too simple for most people to grasp. They do it because others have shown them that they can.
Columbine wasn't a tradedy because of the actions, the murders, the death, video games, the internet, the lack of parental supervision or any other simple reason. Columbine was a tragedy because it showed impressional disturbed people a way to get a lot of attention. It isn't an aberation. It's permission.
Mark my words here. In ten years this sort of thing will happen in every large or medium city in the United States.
Don't think that is true? Twenty years ago I knew a guy in high school who was heavily into the Anarchists Cookbook and another guy who actually made a fake stick of dynomite(sic) to take to school and scare the teachers.
Beware the wood elf!!!
Despite John Ashcroft's stupidity, there is some light that bullying may be a contributing factor finally coming out. I remember that there was a lot of discussion on the news about how bullies were the probably cause of the Santee shootings.
"So, one grows up with the impression that guns are used to win something, rather than what they should be used for -- hunting, or to use in a life-or-death defense situation."
hunting = winning dinner
self defense = winning another day on the planet
it's all a perspective thing.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
you have 10 toes. when you smack one into a door you forget about the other 9. just because a few of the people here are hypocritical, remember that there are a lot of us here who are not. we just aren't as noticeable, so our numbers seem smaller.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
Holy shit that would be cool! I once made a Descent 1 level that looked like a large part of my high school, and I really wish I could find it now that I just got a P166 laptop.
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Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
Yeah, those hands are going to going to be really useful against the business end of my gun/knife/bat/car/gang/bomb/alligator or whatever other weapon I can think of. Years of martial arts training vs a few days' salary spent at Earl's Gun Show.
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Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
Exactally! Powertrip == a good feeling!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
It was a valid point. You aren't allowed to carry AK47's or grenades are you? (at least I assume you aren't). And they are the weapons of choice for most of the world's infantry. I assume you're not allowed to mine your garden with anti-personnel devices either (although I take it that you think you should be following from your arguments).
The argument is not of course a conclusive case for tighter gun control. But I think it does move the focus of teh argument to practical grounds from moral ones.
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However, there is a balance: there are many things the US police are not allowed to do, or are supposed to go to a great deal more trouble to do, compared to Canada or the UK
/. without backing it up :)
Come on, examples please. You know you can't go around making statements like that on
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...it was a strawman. The original poster clearly said "devices that could wipe out all life on earth." Then he knocked that strawman down.
That's not a strawman. To create a strawman you have to misinterpret the argument of your opponents. He never claimed that the (even more) original poster supported the right to use weapons of mass destruction. He merely claimed that "arms" represented "devices that could wipe out all life on earth". You might disagree (you'd be wrong; look up the word), but that in no way makes it a strawman.
Mining my garden is a bit of a different story. First, you don't "bear" mines; you plant them.
The poster I was replying to stated that the reasons he supported the carrying of firearms was NOT because of the constitution, so this is irrelevent. Feel free to read the post you skipped over.
Second, planting them in my garden would make me responsible for any harm that came to someone who accidentally wandered through.
You're also responsible for any damage you do with a firearm; what's your point? My point was that if the original poster really believed that you should be able to defend yourself with any weapon targetted against the individual, s/he should logically defend your right to mine your garden, a position most people would consider extreme.
Third, mines are not primarily used for self-defense, but rather for denying access to a piece of land.
Irrelevent. They can be used effectively for self-defense. But this is really the heart of the debate: what's so special about guns? They're just one point in a spectrum of defensive weapons.
Ah, but moral grounds is exactly where this argument belongs, as do all arguments that involve using the force of law to bend folks to your will! If a law is not moral, then it should not be a law, no matter how much we want the results that the law might achieve. The ends do not justify the means.
Yes, you are correct, but that was not arguing against what I was trying to say. I think almost everyone agrees that there is a limit on what measures you can take to defend yourself. Where the line should be drawn is where the argument is, not the question of whether you should be able to. In the US, the line is drawn (in general) between handguns and assault-rifles, whereas most other first-world countries (who happen to have lower homicide rates) draw the line before firearms.
I don't think there's anything morally wrong with owning a gun (if it was legal in my country I'd get one) but the social advantages of keeping firearms out of the hands of the general populace seem obvious to me, and I vote to remove access to them for myself and everyone else.
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if you check out your facts here and here, you'll see that violent crime is actually lower now than is has been for years. I think that highly sensational journalism is to blame for this misperception. It's not that it's any worse now that it was 10 years ago, it's just that we didn't hear about it before.
I have had the same experience. Since coming to my new job here in the bible belt (Kentucky) I have had people pray over and around me on the job at least 3 time s a month.
In certain parts of the country yes, the lawyers may come out... but not everywhere.
THAN others. THAN others.
Politicians are preferentially drawn from the bullying classes, and so see this as a problem that won't go away -- it's how people like them naturally behave, so obviously there's nothing to be done.
This is obviously a self-reinforcing situation. As long as we allow ourselves to be led by bullies, nobody will do anything about bullying. This will go on until we *really* start taking character into account (rather than just the demagogic pot vs. kettle name-calling that goes on these days) when we choose our representatives.
-Tom Duff
Taking a page from South Park:
"Blame Canada!"
Don't just game, Dungeoneer
The Ten Commandments in school halls would remind us all who is really in charge here (White Christians, not God), but would lessen the alienation of our troubled youth not one whit.
.sig :)
That's gotta be the best quote I've heard all week. I'm gonna use that in my email
Huh? Katz refers to a news story in his post, as well as comments from many government figures. Here's the results of a quick Yahoo news search (hardly an exhaustive source) on "bully":
(Reuters) ...The shooting prompted a series of copycat incidents across the nation and sparked a national debate about bullying....
- Mar 26 6:50 PM ET
(ABCNEWS.com) ...not only for school violence, but also for the the bullying that allegedly provides the emotional ammunition to classroom gunfire....
- Mar 26 10:26 AM ET
(ABCNEWS.com) Colorado is set to require all school districts in the state to create anti-bullying policies, as many states and school districts look for ways to handle a problem which has been cited as a factor in recent episodes of school violence. - Mar 19 12:27 PM ET
Sounds like the media and politicians are at least discussing the issue, Jon.
Ummm...where do you get your ideas of what "usually" happens? How many kids do you know of that have gotten life sentences? I can't think of any myself? And how many adults do you know of that got 5 years or less for murdering a child? Please cite any evidence you have for this non-existant "double standard." Yes, things are definitely tough on kids. But it's not the "open season" your post suggests.
Israel doesn't suffer from huge crime waves
:(
Um... are you joking?
More people are being killed in Isreal and Palistine per capita in a week than in a year in my country. Just because a homicide is comitted between two people of different ethnicity, doesn't mean it's not a crime. They've just elevated from guns to heavy explosives...
Two groups of people killing each other in a rage over who claims ownership over a few scaps of land. As I said in another post in my thread, there's no way I'd let my children live in a society with such an environment of hate and violence.
Dammit, now I'm picking on the Isrealites and the Palenstineans. But I'm sorry. I'm about to do a George Carlin... IT'S FUCKING LAND!!! IT'S NOT WORTH YOUR CHILDREN'S LIVES, OR EVEN PROVING WHICH RELIGION HAS THE BIGGEST DICK. A plague on both your houses! (not Jews or Muslims, but vehement Isrealite and Palistinean nationalists. And I'm not Christian either, so don't pick on them just because I'm a slashdot poster)
Turn the damn country into a UNESCO heritage preseve and move everyone out for 100 years until they can cool off... Same goes for Northern Ireland, South Africa, etc. And yea, I know it's not feasable...
Now I've done it. Dammit. I should stop posting to this thread.
OK, I hoped I wouldn't have to dive into a resulting flamewar, but this deserves a response.
v ancouver.html
The answer is I wouldn't even consider living within an urban area where this was even a realistic possibility within my lifetime.
How could you consider even living in a city with your children if there was even the slimmest chance of this happening?!? Who cares if you know how to operate the gun. What about your kids walking home from school, staying at a friends house, etc. I don't want to lock my kids in a steel cage to protect them.
Not to say this never happens up in Canada, but practically, it just doesn't happen. I'm 26, and I can say I've never personally seen or heard a gun fired on the street in the city or near my home in my lifetime.
So I watch the statistics and if things are too probable for comfort, I MOVE. The probablilities of someone coming into my home are way less than say, my kids finding the gun+ammunition (even if they're stored seperately) than someone bursting into my home.
Let's try to dig up some Vancouver stats to justify my argument...
OK: http://king.thestar.com/thestar/homicides/graphs/
So about 6 homicides per 100,000. Count my family, chances about 24 per 100,000, extended family, lets' say 1 in a thousand per year. That's for all weapons, not just guns.
More stats here. Last year there were about 1,000 firearms deaths in Canada, about 85% of those being SUICIDE. So 150 gun homicides total per year in a country of roughly 30 million. That's about 2 per 100,000.
Maybe I'm just being naive because I haven't been shot yet. I'll let you know when I am.
Oh well, there goes my karma...
I plan to do just that.
However, the "Pround parent of an Honour Roll Student" bumper stickers just make my stomach turn.
It's called sarcasm.
To make other people think about the bumper stickers they've just put on their vehicle. And a reminder to me to beware the wall at every turn...
I'm not advocating the link, just posting it... Plus "sub-urban" or "rural" practically describes most of Canada, so our perspective is different.
And I agree, focusing on one segment of the population as the "solution" (as opposed to the problem) won't work. This is actually why I found the Kindergarten Anger Management class more interesting. I have no clue how well it will work, but it's more along the lines of the solutions discussed here. It will be interesting if this is implemented at several schools and see what the result is about 10 years from now.
At the risk of being a flame, I've been to Winnepeg. I was last there when I was 15 year old for a week on a band trip.
:) The whole it seemed to close down at 9pm. Adults looked at you strangely if you were out late at night.
I understand the Fire Chief comments..
You had good firsthand accounts, excellent quotes, nice newspaper references and insightful (yet short and sweet) comments. I would say, however, that even more of these would have made an even better editorial. You just might turn into a good journalist!
Thanks.
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+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
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+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
No I didn't read the article. Don't have to. The real truth is kids are turning into pussies. Thats right, no PC in this comment. Anyway, they don't want to get into a fight with bullies. They don't event want to jump the bullies, or even outwit them. Hell if you don't want to get into a fight and you are a geek well.. use your geek skillz. Make some weak fscking acid, or perhaps a strong smelling stink spray, make something that will scare your bully. There are many ways to strike back besides gun violence. But do not under any circumstances go on a cowardly rampage. These Columbine kids, and their high school copy cats are nothing but cowards who prey on *UNARMED* enemies. If that isn't cowardly I don't know what is. So quit feeling sorry for these sorry bastards, or trying to understand where they come from because they are all nothing but a bunch of sorry wusses who can't use creative retaliation, who can't fight someone with their minds, who conceat to defeat with their cowardly ways. There is no valor in a school shooting!
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
True, death is death. But when you commit suicide you *choose* to take your own life. When you kill someone else they do not get that choice.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Since when has Christianity been the solution to anything? Please name ONE instance where widespread conversion to or adherence of Christianity actual solved a societies ills?
The 1950's, which you seem to be so nostalgic for, were a time in America when you had to be White, Heterosexual, Male and Protestant to have any chance of achieving opportunity in this country. The rest of us wouldn't have a chance at equality under the regime you want to return to.
The ONLY reason why you don't see these sort of shootings in the small parochial schools is because they are small, NOT because they are parochial.
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
Ponder for a moment the actual meaning of this sentence fragment.
:-)
What Jon said:
The truth is, many more kids kill themselves then others
I suspect the author meant to say "than" rather than "then". That minor vowel shift pretty dramatically changes the meaning of the sentence - from suicide to suicide and murder (in a particularly tricky order
What Jon probably meant:
The truth is, many more kids kill themselves than others
I just thought it was curious/amusing
You don't allow children to drink or vote. Society has said repeatedly that children do not have the same rights as adults because they do not have the same abilities/maturity/responsibilities, as you state.
I'd advocate that ANY American without a violent criminal record and that has passed a rigorous gun safety course should be afforded the right to bear a firearm. I received and used my first firearm at age 12 because my dad knew I was mature enough to handle the responsibility. I would venture that the vast majority of children don't. And they certainly won't get that maturity by parental neglect, Americans' unwillingness to accept responsibility, and the State's constant haranguing of "guns are evil" nonsense. But to restrict my Constiutional rights (and ability as a last resort to end a tyrannical despot) simply becuase some people are irresponsible in using a deadly instrument (and that includes cars, knives etc) is unjust. If I commit a crime while using a gun I will be punished according to the law.
Jesus Christ, loss of life is a cost of liberty. Quit trying to make everything so damn safe by limiting my liberties as defiend in the Consitution.
Jon, I don' t know if you know this or not, but several of these "murderous" teens were on medical treatment for depression. Most f this information was not in the immediate press stories, but consequently discoverd by later, more in-depth research.
A short list:
1. Eric Harris, one of the shooters at Columbine, was on at least one drug, Luvox. Luvox is of the same class as Prozac and Zoloft and Paxil.
2. Kip Kinkel (the shooter in the May 21, 1998, Springfield, Oregon, school massacre) had been a user of Prozac.
3. Julie Meade also took Prozac for four years. She was shot to death by police when she waved a gun at them. This after she called 911 and begged cops to shoot her or she'd shoot herself or start shooting other police.
4. Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, the alleged Jonesboro shooters (they haven't been tried yet AFAIK) were being treated for violent behavior. They COULD have been using Prozac or another anti-depressant which, according to the pharmaceutical industry, has been used in attempts to modify violent behavior.
So Jon, why aren't these medications being considered positive proactive steps? Could the medications themselves be a contributing factor? After all, some medical opinions believe anti-depressants such as the ones used by these teens can CAUSE psychotic behavior.
There are certainly many contributing factors, and despite desires to the contrary, you can't quantify each factor. But these are examples of kids who WERE being treated for depression or other mental ills commonly found in stressed out teens.
This article http://www.familytherapynetwork.com/so00feat.html in Family Therapy Networker (yeah, well, I gotta make a living)talks about a decidedly unsexy approach that seems to work consistently to end the bullying. The interesting observation is at the end, when it talks about the commitment required by the adults that surround all these kids, and how they don't want to get involved.
If the problem WERE the internet, violent games, media, etc. then wouldn't we also expect to see an alarming rise in school shootings in other 1st world coutries.
That we do not see this trend makes for a compelling case against placing the blame on these factors.
Reminds me of high school gradiation the past 2 years (I'm a junior and play in the band so I freeze while they run through the class of [12][09][09][09] because it will be cold).
My freshman year the 2nd best did a prayer as part of her little speech. I can handle this as she can blab on what ever she feels like. If she wants to do a little dance, be my guest. Last year, sophomore year, they stuck a prayer in between listed items, it was not listed, and it disturbed me as they could not get a 1st or 2nd best person to do it so they stuck it inbetween listed things. It just bugs me that the community (being mainly christin (My spelling stinks I know) and only 1 islam and 1 jewish in the last several years) doesn't seem to worry that this is happening.
All I can say is that the prayer thing in school has gotten out of hand. While I sould have yelled and brought this to media attention (unlikely since the local paper was threated when someone wrote an article (my sister, now in law school) showing what idiots some of the local h.s. graduates where because the were printing lousy contierfit $20s.) I didn't. Do I have a reason I didn't, no reason just that several years ago ( years 2 years 10 ) someone wrote a letter to the editor saying that it was awful that their wasn't going to be a prayer at graduation. (The editor of the paper, it changes every 2-3 years, the current one stinks, and the one who was editor (great guy and was the one that got threated (the articles just got dropped) started his own paper but went bankrupt, the paper he stated was better than the established the local paper and did more than cover the popular people).
All I'm really trying to say is that people can't blame anything but themselves. Do they, no they blame someone else. Have I ever been bullied, not really. The jocks give me some respect (I'm 6'2", 180 lbs, medium build and could kick some @$$ if pushed too far (unlikely because I just smile at them and go on with my life)) and can take the few jokes they toss at me, although a select (count on your hand numbers) people are just idiots, and they are not just the jocks and cheerleaders (although the cheerleader advisor on the other hand is a complete idiot that gives no respect to a person that has had to march a parade, 2 miles, in full millitary style uniform, with a hat that hurts their head everytime that it is worn more than 5 minutes (fixed now), and has been allowed to slack in band because the teacher is a 1st year teacher that is a child in their father's perfect image (strict and a math teacher) that doesn't know when to give us a break from working our @$$'s off in class(reverse weaves which meant: 1.5 months on corners that I know do nothing but have us march to the edge of the street, about face, march a pre-determined number of steps back, about face, follow the person in front of us, and do a right/left face 4 steps after they did)).
Students retaliate because they (as a single person or as a group) are mistreated by people, not just bullies but teachers and people that don't know what you have just gone through (or are just arrogant to the fact), to be where you are.
Just remember that just because the motivational speaker says, "Tell your self that you are special," you can remember/yell back:
"You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." -- Tyler Durden. Fight Club.
Thank you for listening/reading/skimming/mooning my rant.
Jon, how many people haven't been bullied at one time in their life? We could certainly improve our kids' lives by reducing the incidence of bullying but, c'mon, it's not an excuse for slaughtering your classmates.
Kids have had bullies and pecking orders forever, but high school mass-murders are relatively new. So the question is: what has changed between then and now? I think it's fairly obvious that people have become increasingly desensitized toward violence and that "murder thy neighbor" video games (along with Tarantino
movies and the like) are evidence of it.
I'm not blaming video games or "Natural Born Killers" for school violence: I'm just saying they are evidence of a declining respect for life in the culture.
Why the callousness towards life? I've got a few ideas.
Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards. -- Aldous Huxley
Thats why kids are hurting each other.
The bullies try to look cool in front of their peers at the expense of another kids image who is also trying to be cool and liked.
Push comes to shove, guns are easily available in the US, then the little kid opens fire on the big kid and all the other kids who sided with the bully because they were too scared of becoming the bullies next target.
I know, I carried a butterfly knife to school because I could not handle much more bullying. I wanted to kill this other kid. Lucky I never had access to guns, and lucky my teacher found out I was carrying and confiscated my knife.
These kids that "go crazy" are not necessarily all bad, they're just pushed and pushed beyond their limits at a time in their life when things are stressful enough without that shit.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Are you STILL on about this Katz?
These high school shootings are just a symptom of a disease. The underlying cause may be bullying or teasing of students, but where do the bullies get their hate from? What causes them to make someone else's life a misery?
Its times like thse when cartoons about parenting licenses start to make sense.
Unfortunately, society cannot be corrected in one move. Education programs will hit a portion of their target, but many kids will just not listen.
Its an age-old problem, but the way its currently manifesting itself is a lot more violent than before.
I was relentlessly teased just like many people reading this and other things. What kept me from taking my life, or others lives, was a simple award from a teacher. It had nothing to do with grades or intelligence(I had gotten those before, my peers seem to think they were derrogetory, not complimentary). She gave me an award for critical thinking. On a group camping trip, I had helped 4 people come down from a tall rock that they'd gotten stuck on. I used a large tree branch to help them down, and talked them through it calmly.
The award, presented in front of the class, gave me self confidence. Nobody jeered at me for receiving it. Suddenly, I loved myself. It was in 8th grade, and it changed my life forever.
You may say "Bah, sentimental hogwash". You might cry out "social promotion". This was neither of those. It was an award, for an accomplishment. A showing of respect. Not a token "you're a great student cause you tried" or a "You're a winner because you played 10 games of baseball". It meant something, to me and my peers.
The point of my post here, is that these kids have no self esteem. They have no power over their own minds because they're afraid. This is caused mostly by bullying, but its also because the authority figures in their lives are too busy. Whether it be parents, teachers, coaches, or "mentors", somebody needs to challenge kids early on, and keep them striving, or they'll just lose all hope, and commit attrocities such as this.
SpamapS -- Undernet #Linuxhelp
Under US law, most of the male citizens are, in fact, militia members. Unorganized militia, but militia nonetheless... the militia ARE the people.
And if you bother searching the militia acts, you'll notice that from the very beginning, people were expected to provide and keep their *own* personal firearms...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
There was an incident shortly afterwards, and actually rather close to Santee (the incident you're referring to). In the one *after* Santee, yes, the kid had a shotgun with buckshot (! -- and given the utter non-lethality of the injuries, I suspect that he was a fair distance from his victims) and was apparently gunning for the assistant principal (who had been working with the shooter on anger management...).
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Because it's cultural, not just guns. For instance...
* Firearms ownership among police is common. Massacres by police aren't.
* Firearms ownership is somewhat more common and far more tolerated in rural areas. This, generally, isn't where most shootings take place.
* Firearms ownership is UBIQUITOUS in certain other countries, like Switzerland. It's rather calm there.
* Firearms ownership actually once upon a time was far easier in this country, due to such things as Army surplus and far fewer regulations. Crime has gone UP.
And if you look at CCW laws and their effects on crime, peer-reviewed research has strongly suggested that -- in the United States -- increasing firearms ownership significantly decreases violent crime, and slightly increases property crime, since the latter has become far safer. So yes, they're connected, but not in the way you're implying.
Outside the country, all you need to look at is the UK and Australia; "hot" burglaries, for instance, have increased over the past few years subsequent to bans. In the UK, they're even considering banning realistic *toy* guns; and the only way this POSSIBLY makes sense is if the criminals still have real guns... and the law-abiding citizens, except for rapid-response police teams, don't. And in this scenario, the law-abiding citizens are therefore: screwed, because now they CANNOT defend themselves [*].
[*] The physically weak (for instance, many women and elderly folks) would need to travel in large groups. A few decently strong folks of average size, even WITHOUT firearms, pose a severe threat to the average individual given a modicum of HTH experience, and since they're the ones choosing the targets, they can cheerfully pick on the weak. So it's far safer for criminals to operate.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Banning firearms wouldn't help unless backed up by mass search and seizure, plus tight border control... and THAT's not going to happen.
And even if it did -- congratulations. Now the gangs and stronger kids (and adults) can bully, rob and rape to their heart's content, with minimal fear of individuals being able to defend themselves (or intervene to help others).
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Or, more simply, some probably enjoy it. It need not have anything to do with self-esteem, but [i]power[/i] -- knowing that one can lord it over other using force, or threat thereof.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Automatic weapons were issued for free to many a young lad sent to Korea and 'Nam. Very, very few used them on civillians. On the other hand, now, it's difficult for a kid to get an *automatic* weapon -- because of the Federal permits required under the FFA (IIRC) rules, and the fees this entails. For that matter, it's unusual for an ADULT to get these.
So these shootings AREN'T happening with automatics; in fact, in the most recent case, the bozo was using a simple shotgun, loaded with buckshot.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Infecting yourself with a nasty plague? ;-)
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
*shrug*
True. The "Happy Land Social Club" incident, which involved gasoline and matches, was probably the second worst single mass-murder in the US this century, after the Murrah Federal Bldg. bombing in OK City.
But while some of these school attackers *tried* to use propane bombs (notably Columbine, but other incidents as well) and their ilk, I don't recall any that managed to explode when desired. Maybe they lacked the materials and experience to design working timers or triggers, and didn't want to simply settle for gasoline-based Molotovs.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
This is totally irrelevent. The action was done by an adult and the only part guns (may) have had was the ignition of the dynamite in the car (after the initial scool bombin). Also, try doing a Google search on 'Bath Bombing' and you'll find many pages on this subject - not something I would expect if nobody knew about it.
LRJ
I agree with everything you said accept the sentance about the second amendment being for our protection from the police. Actually the second amendment is there to protect us from an unjust government (which the police force is part of, but they have nowhere near the firepower or authority of the full military). This is why it is so dangerous that this right is slowly being chipped away - unfortunatly I think it is going to be too late before people realize this.
LRJ
comparing Canadian crime data from here and population data from here vs U.S. crime and population data from here it appears that, per capita, Canada has a much higher violent crime rate than the U.S. (over double) - and it's illegal for you guys to own firearms. So why would it be safer up there?
LRJ
I completely disagree - the second amendment is meant to protect us from our own military being used against us, not to protect us from other governments (at least that was Jefferson's intent). Since, as you stated, the National Guard is part of the U.S. military, the second amendment is there to protect us from your commander in chief (or his subordinates) from using you (as a tool) to do things that s/he shouldn't.
LRJ
B/c your HS experience is unique. Most kids weren't having sex at the same age you were (in my HS, anyway). You were either lucky, or part of the small group tht picked on most of the other kids. It is always a small group that picks on the others, so unless you are part of that group, you probably have had a shitty HS experience.
I've found college chics to be much looser about sex then any HS girl i ever knew, i don't have 7hrs of classes everyday; i have only a few hours a day, and i don't even have to go if i don't awnt to. Sure i get alot of taxes out of my paycheck, but you know what, i still bring home far more then i ever could at $5/hr. Not to meantion i truely have the freedom to do anything i want without parents to make it diffcult. I don't even have the stress i did b/c i had to hide things they didn't want me doing.
You must have had great freedom with your childhood and mommy and daddy must have given you everything you wanted. Most of us don't have that experience. The things you did in HS everyone else is doing now that they are out of it. If you can find true freedom or fun in the 'real world', something is wrong.
While you may not have been spoiled it does sound like your parents are much more lenient then most. Also, while it did seem to work well in your case, i'm sure there are alot of kids out there where this plan backfires.
As far as standing up for yourself goes; well the worst 'bullies' would beat the crap out of you for that, and that would acomplish nothing. I tried, and thats what happened to me. Unfortunatly they were stronger, and so there wasn't much that i could do. Eventually the school (like in my junior or senior year) got the novel idea to kick the worst kids out. They were transfered to another school, presumably one that could crack down on them.
But obviously your experiences are in the minority. I suppose thats why you're getting alot of flak. I'm happy that you were able to enjoy HS and escape it without the torture that most of us went through. But don't ask so suprised when the rest of us complain; i guess it is the same as if you were trying to tell a depressed person who's life has been one mishap after another that life is good and that he should be happy for it.
Students do carry weapons to school because they fear for their safety. In the past few weeks, my school has uncharacteristically been reciving several bomb threats, schooting rumors, etc. And kids have, seemingly consequently, brought guns to school. A teacher of mine was talking about a school in CA where he had taught for several years where most of the students were armed out of safety concerns. It's been done, just not always talked about.
I think that arming students is not the best idea in practice - shouting matches might end up into shooting matches. In theory, it might make more sense - ie, nobody shoots anybody because they KNOW they will be shot quickly - but then again things always twist from theory to practice.
Just my $.02
-k-
Ah, but there are nearly as many guns per capita in Canada as there are in the US. Nearly everyone I knew growing up in Northern Ontario owned multiple guns.
The question is, why do Americans kill each other with them so much more often than we do? It sure as hell isn't due to gun availability.
I agree 100% with this. Parents aren't taking responsibility for raising their kids. My parents were all about raising my brother an I better than their parents raised them. Teaching us the things they wish they had been taught and had learned the hard way. I think more often than not these days kids are sent off to day care during the work day and then sit in front of the t.v. when everyone is home for the day. A lot of the shootings in schools these days could probably be prevented if parents took an active role in their child's life.
I'm not saying that video games, television, music, etc. doesn't play a role in any of this but I don't think its the main problem. I mean, hell, when i was in junior high, I remember hearing LL Cool J's song "Mama Said Knock You Out" and I didn't use it as an excuse to go beat up some other kid on the playground or on the soccer field. My parents taught me what was right and what was wrong by that point. To those parents out there, talk to your kids and ask them how they feel about certain issues, teach them that when they see someone get shot on t.v. that its wrong, and just plainly play a role in your child's everyday life.
Just my two cents...
Sure I'm not saying that guns are the single cause of anything...hence the preamble about teenage angst. I simply believe it's too easy for *everyone* to gain access to handguns in the US, legal or otherwise. The argument that guns are required for self/home defense seems kinda circular to me because of course you need a gun because bad men breaking into your home has a gun, but he has a gun because guns are readily available in the US. Due to history more than anything I believe that gun culture is far too entrenched in the US to remove now or ever. Which is one of the many reasons I'm not going to be raising a family here but back home.
:). However gun related crime is typically much more rare simply because it's hard to get a gun (legally or otherwise) and because handguns above a certain calibre are not available at all to the general populace.
I certainly agree that the US should be punishing people that don't take proper measures to store firearms that are used illegally. Does this not already happen?! Again where I come from (New Zealand) it is legal to own firearms (rifles, shotguns) with a license (and sports pistols too I believe) but they must be stored under lock and key, or at a bare minimum the bolts and ammunition must securely stored. New Zealand is a small country but we do have a fair amount of violent crime and home invasion/murder is a regular occurance (unfortunately) so hopefully you don't just think I'm naive
As to solving the US problem? Who knows! I'm just glad I have a small island in the Pacific to return too...
Does *anybody* have normal happy teenage years? Personally I don't think anybody gets their shit sorted out before they hit 22-25. My teenage years were a misery and I was teased and bullied (being a geek in a boy's school where the 'normal' people were those in the rugby team). I know when the hassle got really bad I vaguely entertained thoughts of suicide. I can also understand why teenagers would want to (and do) turn on their tormentors.
However the most violence I ever witnessed in school was the odd punch up. This is because in the country I lived in as a teenager it is ILLEGAL to possess HANDGUNS.
I don't think teenagers have become any more or less troubled and violent than they ever were (anybody fancy being a teenager in England or America in the 1800's?). I simply think that because of the ridiculous gun laws of the US, it is simply too easy for an angry modern American teenager to gain access to an easily concealable, lethal weapon to use against their peers. In fact haven't most of these rampaging teenagers simply taken weapons from home?
Kinda stating the obvious I know, but my 2c.
That's all well and good but you forget, the kids haven't developed a level of understanding about cohesion, common interests or goals. By the time they figure that out they've already suffered the abuse. So now what, smart guy?
Stop fostering abuse. Stop micromanaging abberations in behavior. It's not hard to understand what bullying is. This is where the parents and teachers need to focus.
It is a shame that the media and our precious politicians don't wish to truly handle the situation. If they are not willing to deal with the true problem, then they should step away from it and allow the group that can make a difference: the parents. The parents need to stop allowing the government and other influences raising their children without a real rudder to control their future. Having a solid value system and to respect what is right or wrong will give the children to make better choices as they move through live.
None of us have made perfect choices in life and we learn from it. We hated being kids at times, but then again we hated being adults at times. Schools were boring and often made embarassing moments in life that we could have done without. Those who were not in or consider geeks (like me) have considered laying waste to the school at times, but we controlled our desires and let those weasles survive the rest of their lives. After being picked on for years, it does get old fast.
My younger siblings are in a school that I graduated and in retrospect - schools sucked, even the tech school I went to overall. Now they experiment with New Math and other subjects that are frightening if you consider how they will ruin our kid's understanding of math and other subjects. No math genius or scientists will come out with that type of hard science coverage.
Just dumbing down of the american youth by lazy unionized teachers (who never get paid enough), liberal mainstream media (hopefully the kids of the future won't see pass the B.S.), and politicians who hope that their corruption will be overlooked by stupid voters (see entry on Billy Clinton in corrupt politician or holy grail of getting away with it).
Come on people, you're talking about a country where almost half of the voters CHOSE bush. Of course we have a gun problem.
This is the man who's father was the head of the cia. This is the man who enacted the first laws in texas in over a century to allow handguns to be brought into churches and amusement parks. This is the man who wants to INCREASE military spending to modernize the military.
http://www.hyperpoem.net
hyperpoem.net
Europe makes up for it in civil wars haven't ypu noticed?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
It's important to be clear about one things: On the average, youth violence has been decreasing, not increasing, as videogames and movies have gotten increasingly violent. So any either violent entertainment does not promote violence among young people in general, or if it does, any such effect is so small compared to larger social factors that it cannot be detected. Statistically speaking, school shootings are insignificant--they make headlines precisely because they are unusual, but they have no real impact on the overall risk of violence.
Fine, but why are we having a run of school shootings now? Pointing out that it goes against an overall trend simply makes the observation more odd. One politically fashionable explanation can be eliminated out of hand, at least as causative (as opposed to enabling) factors. It's obviously not the availability of guns. There probably never has been a time when a sufficiently motivated kid in the US could not get his hands on guns. And in many parts of the country, teenagers hunt--and you can bet they know how to shoot. Yet the shootings are a recent phenomenon. Obviously, if there were no guns, then there would be no shootings, but guns are not the immediate cause.
The same goes for bullying. It may be a motivation, but it is nothing new. As many readers of slashdot can attest, "odd" kids have always taken a lot of crap in school.
What is new? Simply the idea. Once somebody has actually done something, it becomes that much easier for others to do likewise. Thanks to media hysteria, the idea of getting a gun and blowing away his tormentors is now in the forefront of every bullied kid's mind, while every kid who feels ignored and insignificant is paying close attention to the media attention showered upon the perpetrators of the school shootings. Unfortunately, this means that, unless the news media develop a sense of ethics, and stop sensationalizing such events (which is probably even more unlikely than Americans embracing strict gun control), the shootings are going to continue. Indefinitely.
And in fact, it may even be that in one sense, videogames do contribute. It has been noted that depressed patients who start taking antidepressant drugs can be at risk of suicide. When you are really depressed, it is hard to take any action at all. But if you start to get petter, you may manage to find the will to actually do something about your plight--something final. Take a bullied kid, and give him a videogame system. After awhile, he starts to get pretty good at it, and his self-esteem rises to the point that when somebody picks on him, he thinks, "I'm not going to take this crap any more!" If there is anything constructive about these shootings, it is raising public perception of the problem of bullying. But while schools could be more responsive to the problem of bullies, I doubt if they'll be able to stop them altogether--there simply isn't the manpower to monitor the student body that closely. Even when I was a kid, the bullies often didn't attack you in school...they laid in wait to get you afterwards.
Here's my proposed solution: identify the bullied kids, and enroll them in a judo class. They'll build their self esteem, and when somebody picks on them, they'll be able to deal with it without going home for Daddy's gun. Judo's a sport--it's (mostly) nonlethal, but a geeky kid with a yellow belt is more than a match for the average bully. Hey, it worked for me....
So? What do you expect them to do? Walk two paces behind known villains till they do a crime?
>Think about it. It takes, on average, five to ten
>minutes for a police car to make it to a scene
>after a call comes in.
Cops have to be on the beat for 65 years (roughly) before coming across a crime in progress! In the modern world we have this technology called, wait for it, the MOTORCAR. You should try one sometime, they're much faster than walking. No, really, they're pretty good!
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. (Not to mention the fact that the second statement you made about cars made no sense whatsoever...) I'm not saying that we should change how the police does things. What you (sarcastically) suggest would seriously violate the civil rights of those would-be "criminals". All I'm suggesting is that while the police can arrive and deal with the aftermath of a crime, they can't actually stop a crime in progress unless they happen to stumble onto it in progress. If you have a chance to defend yourself DURING the crime, then you're probably better off. I have no problem with firearms being carried, so long as they're used for DEFENSE only.
Remember the old saying... "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." It's very true. Do you HONESTLY think criminals will give up their guns if they become illegal? It hasn't stopped other illegal contraband. :p All you're doing is taking the weapons out of law-abiding citizens.
Okay, I drifted off topic... so sue me. :p
(Score: -1, Redundant)
Sorry, I couldn't help myself :-)
--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Well I'm still waiting for a functional long term relationship... But their were no girls other than what I mentioned before at my HS... Well their were some borderline ones, but they have all fell in-line since (like some of the smart attractive girls who had a bright future in a scientific field, who now are kept pregnant by their hick loser boyfriend/husband... it's really sick)
That was one of many which happened for years, but it stands out as the day I knew for certain that school wasn't 'safe'. School became my jail for years based on the actions of everyone their (teachers, bullies, school officals, etc.)... I blaim parents to starting with my own, who even when I told them some of what was going on they failed to beleive it & thought I exagerated everything... I've learned I can't trust my parents to help me when things get tought to... Actually I have a felling I'm never really going to come to a true understanding with them because they are blind to what they don't want to hear or know... But that applies to alot of people in america... Maybe when I figure out what makes my parents refuse to hear how my life was, then I'll be able to help others hear & know as well...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
What sucks is the few bullies/other nar-do-wells who did manage to make something of themselves... I'm stuill in college (my second, due to unforseen circumstances) & I had someone from HS come in to the crappy little store I work at... He fits the profile of 'yuppie' to a T... Him & his little slut wife (I'm suprised they managed to stay together he had a thing for sleeping around & so did he)... he had the beemer, the tailored leather jacket & driving gloves... he didn't recognize me (I have a small beard now due to getting tired of shaving it all off), but he still annoyed me to where I'm glad he didn't ask me any questions... I probably would have told him where he could take hsi questiosn & have lost my job...
;)
Oh & some of the bullies would very well beat a teacher if he so much as looked at them wrong at my school... Well that or some teachers managed to hurt themselves every time they got in a confrontation with some of the bullies...
Things like CS help, though it's annoying when soem LPB gets upset because of my leet HPB skills when I cap him...
I'm glad things are going better for you... I try to pick up the pieces, but so far luck has not been on my side (like roomates who were still bullies like I faced in HS, or how most of the women I meant while at college were married straight out of HS)... But their is stil hope, because their is still tomorrow... For some of the people out their it may not always seem like their should be a tomorrow, but their is if you take the time to get their one step at a time...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
I think the whole reason why people are blaming video games is they don't know what else to blame- and they are violent, so it's a good reason. To say whether or not video games are the reason, I think it depends on the person, and how they react to the video games. For example, I have been playing video games my whole life, most of which chould be classified as violent. I think Soldier of Fortune is an awesome game. But am I going to go off shooting poeple now? No, not me. So does that mean games aren't harmful? I don't think so. What if a person took the game too seriously and thought it was just no big deal to kill people- they have been doing it on video games forever. Yes, that can happen. But why would they think that? Well, I think that is where the constant teasing and bullying comes in. As Katz, said above, depression usually causes them to be bullied, but that only makes the depression worse. They go to school every day, being teased, pushed around all day long, and they really become desinsitized to it, the violence (yes, it is violence) they go through every day is just a way of life. But if you go through this for so long, without any friends, nobody to help them, they are eventually going to snap - something is going to be the last straw, and they wont know what to do. Well, it worked to the character in the video game. Let's see how it works in real life. So he shoots up the school- and if he doesn't kill himself there, he's got life in prison.
So this person takes his last resort at retaliation, and he's now being bullied by the government. The person needs HELP! Throwing him away in a cage isn't going to help him, it will never help him, it will just be an end to his life So who to blame? The game or the bully? Well, let's blame the game, it's an easy target, the actions the person took were the same as what happened in the game. But that's not a good enough reason. Why did he have to take action? It all starts somewhere, and in this case it started with depression, which led to bullying, which led to violence, which led to life in prison.
How could anyone do a thing to a person who just started his life? To just throw it away, without help. If he does get help, he's gonna get it for no reason, cause he's going to be in jail forever anyway.
The blame is pointless. You can blame the music, the tv, the games, or whatever you want, but there is something to blame that needs to take care of this. It's the bullys. And even though I didnt mention it before, the parents. Are the parents paying too much attention to to themselves that they don't even realize their own child is suffering from something? Do they even notice that their kid is home by himself all day long, and stays in his room all day, or never talks about what he did in school? PARENTS NEED TO PAY ATTENTION! Check up on your kid, establish a relationship with them, so they arent embarassed to go to you when they have a problem like this. If you go to work all day, them come home and say you need time for yourself, you are being selfish, and neglecting your child. Give him all the toys you want, give him anything, but you can't find any material item comparable to the love you give them. If you dont spend time with them, you will never know there is a problem.
As for the bullies, you as parents need to find out if your child is being bullied, or if your child IS the bully. And take care of it. If you think bullying is harmless, you are wrong. You are VERY wrong.
The shootings are obviously less common than suicides, but it's the same problem- just a person who doesn't know what else to do. Some think they are the problem and decide to take their own life, and others see the bullies as the problem and get rid of them.
This condition can be treated, and it wont get fixed by throwing them in jail, or having them killed. There is medication for depression, and can have a significant change in a persons life. But for a child, they don't realize that. The parents need to help their children with this. They can't do it themselves.
-Brandon
The problems with America's youth all come back to the parents. Bullying in schools and being desensitized to violence are part of the problem, but most of it lies in the parents. Today, most parents would rather be their kid's best friends then their parents... disipline takes a back seat to "oooh... I don't want to hurt little Johnny's feelings" and kids are getting away with bad behavior because the parents aren't willing to step in.
Bullying wouldn't be a problem if the parents of the bullies would step in and disipline their kids so that they would learn that bullying is wrong and won't do it to others.
This problem is part of a larger problem with out society as a whole. We want everything to be easy and always be comfortable. We want a pill to take care of all our problems (with this I am refering to the overuse of Ritalin to "cure" overactive kids). Everyone everywhere wants to point a finger at someone else and blame them for the problems. The reality is that the solution to the problem lies within all of us, no violence on TV or in videogames. We need to take a hard look at the direction that out society is going in.
sorry for nitpicking, but hindi is one of the national languages of india. Hindu is the name of the religion.
"To save the planet, I had to go to the worst spot on Earth, and that was Philadelphia." -- Sun Ra
I'd love to see these "statistics" of which you speak, considering most defensive gun uses (upwards of 90%) don't even involve a shot being fired. And I hope you're not referring to the studies of that shyster Kellerman, whose entire research centered around suicides. Like it or not, guns have no effect on the number of suicides in a society. The nations with the highest suicide rates have some of the strictest gun control.
"Prejudice is wrong; you should hate everyone the same."
I agree.
My father grew up on a a farm in Ontario, Canada, and it was no big deal for a 14 year old student to bring their new rifles or shotguns in for "show and tell".
When my grandfather taught my father how to shoot a gun, the first thing taught was how to show the appropriate respect for something that has no other purpose than to kill. When my father taught me, it was the same.
I have gone on to compete in international handgun competitions, and the one common component is respect; for people, and for the potential results of making a mistake with handgun.
I think that respect for other people is one of the key things that MUST be passed on from parent to child, and lack of respect is probably one of the biggest factors in any conflict, armed or otherwise.
It's almost like life is becoming too easy, and society is too protective of people and is allowing us to "get away" with innapropriate behaviour. Because really, if you do something wrong, what's the result? Not that long ago, we all would have relied on our friends and neighbours for basic survival. If you did something to piss them off, or if you did something "stupid", you may not have survived. That interdependence forced good behaviour, for the most part. If something like bullying was going on, odds are the kid doing it would have been smacked in the head. God knows, when I did something stupid as a kid (like who knew that when, at the age of 11, you called the operator and told her to "fsck off" that she could CALL YOU BACK so that your father could answer the phone?) I got smacked! Not abused, but man, I didn't dare do that again. I knew that there was a cause and effect thing going on. I play with fire, I get burned; the pain wasn't worth the fun. What happens today? "Well Billy, that was innapropriate, and you showed a lack of respect, and please don't do it again". The kid then thinks "damn, that was no big deal, now I have to hang out in my room where I can play PS2".
I'll never forget one of the last things my grandfather said to me before died... "common sense just ain't so common".
I just wish there was an easy answer, you know?
$0.02 (CDN)
I agree whole heartedly!!!
When we first moved to the US I was picked on constantly because of my accent. I talked to my dad about it and he said "beat the shit out of the next kid who picks on you". I did and was not picked on again.
This happened in 7th grade and protected me from bullying until the 12th grade. Even 5 years later a group of guys were trying to get one of their friends to start a fight with me and he told them, "no way, remember what he did to that kid in junior high!"
Even if I would have lost that fight -- I would have earned some respect and the bullying would have stopped.
But, I think times are different now. Kids equate fear with respect. So you don't see one-on-one fair fights anymore. It is always about intimidation/fear, so you see weapons & groups of kids beating up one kid.
I wonder if this would still work?
Not British -- German.
Teasing in school has always existed.
..."
Depression has always existed.
So why are kids turning in to "mass murderers"? The Misanthropic bitch has a very interesting theory:
"Sergeant Pepper's Loner Band"
I was clinically depressed through high school. I continue to suffer from depression, even in the absence of the teasing and bullying I endured in public school.
So why didn't I snap? Why didn't I take the semi-automatic hand-guns and kevlar vest I had easy access to and go on a killing rampage? God knows I wanted to, many times...
TMB once again has some ideas on that:
"But, Mom, All Of The Other Kids Are Committing Mass Murder
The Catholic church has a strong influence on all those other countries I mentioned as well. They influence what laws get passed, and how government works. They even try to influence this country.
One of the things affects who gets teased/bullyed and how long it goes on for is, quite simply, how much the bully in question enjoys bullying a particular person. This in turn depends at least partly on how the bullied person responds to the bully. I don't think it's a big stretch to say that kids who are clinically depressed would respond differently than kids who are not...so even though the depression might not be the original reason the bullying began, it could easily be a factor in its continuation.
Just a thought.
...otherwise they'd remember that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you can't stand the retaliation, stop your bullying. Duh.
My name is Carlos Montoya. You share files of my music. Prepare to die.
Human nature doesn't change.. People have been killing each other since the beginning of time.. why are they going to stop? Even if there was some way to automagically delete every weapon in existence.. people will find a way to kill each other. They'll come back with bigger boards with bigger nails in them. --The Groove
--The Groove
Jon,
As you say in your autobiography, you too were a victim of bullies in school, yet you didn't commit suicide. While being bullied was depressing, and you probably thought of suicide, you were never depressed enough to commit suicide.
We've come to realize that mental illness, including depression, is genetic, not environmental, and we have a large number of drugs that can help... but not for kids.
There will be a "Frontline" on PBS this month that will detail kids being given these drugs that have only been tested on adults.
I'm not sure what "Frontline" will say, but I'm sure it will be thought provoking.
My feeling is, I don't care how untested the drug is, if your kid is clinically depressed, get the drugs.
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
I think your (well-worded) post could be summarized in a few words: We're reaping the results of the last 30-40 years, and there are no quick fixes.
The attitudes of the last generation are being played out in how they (don't) raise their children.
We all try to pretend that our culture of divorce and the insecure childhoods that result from it don't really have long term impact. But, we turn on the TV and see the consequences of the lies we tell ourselves about committment, responsibility and morality.
"When justice is denied, and any class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob, and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe. " Fredrick Douglas, 1886 That pretty much sums it up, why kids are killing themselves, and killing each other.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
You found your way to beat them - I just think turning to drugs was stupid
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
I grew up going to private schools - and it was kill or be killed. Up intill 3rd grade when I was kicked out of the first school I Went to, I was doing fine because I was in a niche. In Fact, I remember in 2nd grade a new kid came in and for the first part of the year we gave him all hell (made him cry more then once). However, a friend and I decided to let him into our lil group. I went to a public school for the finishing part of 3rd grade and then a different one for 4th grade. At both places I was able to fit in INSTANTLY and other then the fact I was bored during the day, I loved it. When I went to another private school in 5th grade, it was hell on earth. What few friends I could get would quickly turn on me, fight with me, etc. They played a game there called Bombardament. Aparently they had been playing this game for a few years and it was my first time at it. Oh yea, I also suck at catching and throwing due to my stubby hands and I through "like a girl". Anyhoo, for the first week I Got the shit knocked out of me with big rubber balls. Constantly made fun of etc. So, I did like anyone that can think on their feet would do, I directed the attention away from me onto someone else. Sure it was hell for me, but it was cutthroat. If you couldn't take the heat then school sucked. If you could take it and re-direct it or simply find someone lower on the lader then you, then you were fine. By 8th grade I had my group. Luckily my freshman year in HS, I was sick of it all and didn't care much. I still had my friends from gradeschool there, and picked up a few more. However, it was still the same cutthroat environment. Jocks would make fun of me for being fat and I would whisper into their ear that I play violent video games and know how to use guns. Shut them up. Id also resort to the 'at least I Dont have VD' comebacks too. It is all kill or be killed, and I have had some of the toughest school shit you can get. However, kids today are not tought how to fight back. They are like French kids in the 1930s. Their mom's always told them in a fight to back off. Apose to the German children who were told to take it to line. I know im going a lil off topic, but thats a big reason France was taken so quickly. This same reason is why kids today cant take it if someone calls them fat. Were they not taught sticks and stones? I got in trouble a lot for fighting but hell, I needed it. It let people know that I don't take shit. These kids either need to learn to take shit, or not. There are ways other then fighting to show you dont take shit such as ignoring them. Bullying is and will always be - teach the kids how to take it, not to cower and hide!
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
I'm an iconoclast at my school. We have no goth or punk scene here and it has taught me a lot about how shallow and pathetic most of the "non-conformists" really are. I used to hang out with all the non-conformists and the level of resentment is insane in many cases. When I moved to my current high school (I've been here for 3 years and am a senior) I had to actually get to know people outside those cliques. And that is all they are, cliques. Would I be accepted back by the people in those cliques at my old high school? Most likely not because I'm no longer a very judgemental person as they are and I don't get mad, I get even when people try to torment me. So stop crying about how bad these kids have it. I was tormented psychologically for about 7 hours a day in 7th grade and most of the time I've been in school other than 11th and 12th grade has quite frankly sucked big time. I haven't killed anyone and I just got into college on early decision. I get back by rubbing it into the cool kids' faces that I got into one of Virginia's most competitive colleges, JMU, on early decision and they probably won't even get in on regular admissions. I rub in the fact that yeah.... I maybe a virgin... but I'm not the one that is going to have to pay child support in less than 9 months! Many of the things now that make up the brunt of what I love in life such as computers and history, philosophy, listening to "uncool" music and linguistics would be sneered at by many of the fringe kids I used to hang out with. Why? They're "preppy" things, they're not "cool." Stop whining and bitching and moaning Katz about how bad these kids have it. Ones like the gamers, yeah they don't deserve it but most goths do deserve to be treated with little respect. Most of them have no clue what the pentagrams they wear really mean. Most of them try to just scare the "normal" kids. They don't scare me, modern goth is so passe. Frankly I find the majority of modern goth to be disrespectful to neo-paganism and wicca because of the blatant abuse of their symbols and practices. So Katz, lay off the schpele about how so many kids are being hurt by bullies. Some of them such as the gamer crowd are often attacked without reason, but ones like the gothic crowd actively antagonize in many cases. Believe me Katz, been there, done that... I've seen happen plenty of times in front of me.
Kudos, you really hit the nail on the head with your comment.
First, I think we should remember that the primary responsibility for students who are shot has to go to the person pulling the trigger. It's important to examine the reasons and motives, but it just doesn't make sense to say "it's the bully's fault." The bully may be wrong and be a bad person, but the bully did not open fire on anybody.
Second, I'd like to recommend a book called "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell. In it he talks about social and cultural epedemics, whether it be school shootings or Blues Clues.
The book covers a variety of examples. Why does a particular type of shoe suddenly become popular for no apparent reason? Why does the number of fatal auto accidents involving only one person go up whenever a story about a suicide is reported on the news? Why did crime dropped so dramatically and so quickly in NYC? Was it simply because they started keeping the subways free of graffiti? Maybe. Tiny changes can sometimes have huge impacts and pave the way for epedemic changes.
Here is a relevent comment from the author:
Yes, children who grow up in households where there _are_ two parents, and where one lives at home, and there are a few kids (say, more than one, fewer than five) and the parents pay attention to said children grow up more 'normal' than perhaps otherwise. And even if a kid is a geek or a goth or whatever else they want to try that is a hair off center as compared to Joe Preppy, caring parents (and a good dutch uncle) will prepare a kid to think for themselves, help 'em have good self-esteem, et al ad nauseum.
Unfortunately, single parent homes are the norm, the occasional two parent family is more likely to have a single child than not (with both parents working). Kids get spoiled and/or ignored. Kids don't learn 'values' from their parents. Gee, look, we have society.
Look ma, I'm a
A large portion of individuals who express an opinion about this issue conveniently blame things other than themselves. The government blames the media's purvasive violence, the media blames it on the availability of guns and lack of regulation, and parents blame them both.
Problem is - there's plenty of blame to go around. If you assume that these things are different than they used to be, you'd better ask why and place blame where it belongs.
Bullies always existed - period. Like it or not, they've been around for ages and no matter how many get shot, they won't disappear. Requiring school civility may help in school - but it just changes the venue. Besides, remember back when it was socially inappropriate to be openly uncivil in school (may predate some people). Bullies and tormenting situations existed there, also.
How about guns and legislation? Sure, that stuff would help some. But do laws preventing drugs keep drugs from school age children?
Actually, the place most of the blame goes is on the parents (a group in which I belong). When we don't teach our kids how to cope, help find their way out of a repressive situation, and help them understand the worth in others, they have to find their own way - many times the wrong ones. We just sit back and watch the finger pointing while the government and the media gladly serve was our well-paid scapegoats that help us avoid our responsibility.
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
I remember one day in high school, where a student came up behind me, and knocked me off balance. The staff who witnessed the event saw one student and hauled him off to the principal's office, and then a few minutes later, sent an aide to the class that I was in to call me down, where this student apologized to me. One thing that I noticed was that the student that got punished was not the student that I believed commited the act against me. One lesson that bullies need to learn is that their actions against one person may end up affecting more than that one person.
Reread the article. Jon Katz is not laying the blame on anyone and neither should you. It is not politician's fault if they seem to be focused on the wrong part of the problem: they don't know any better. Politicians have kids, and some of them had unhappy childhoods too, you know? The solution here is to educate and direct the politicians. Give them good advice, good feedback. Help them to see and implement solutions. Make sure they feel good when they do implement solutions. Jon Katz is helping to inform policy makers, and so are you with your diverse opinions.
It's not parent's fault if they are "bad" parents. How many of you really know how to be good parents? Sure, a lot of us here seem to intuitively know the principles of good parenting. But just you try applying your principles when you really, really don't understand why you're kid 20 years younger than you doesn't seem to listen to anything you say to try to help. Most parents do sense when their kids are unhappy, and with some kinds they don't know how to help. They feel like they've tried everything they can think of. Don't blame the parents: that just makes them resent you more. More to the point: it confuses them. They can't see the answers when they, the parents that is, think you hate them. Remember, parents are kids inside too, and for all these troubled children who became happier adults, there are adults who are still as troubled as they were when they were children. If you think you have good parent instincts, apply them: do go and talk to children who near live you. Without offering candy.
You can't blame video games. And you can't blame lack of video games, which you do when you talk about how important it is that the games help you let off aggression. The simple truth is, and everyone knows it, that video games, and violent images especially in entertainment, do program a certain violence thoughts into your mentality. Don't take this as a bad or a good thing! It just is, and brings me to the next point:
Can you blame the perpetrators of crimes? I.e. is it their fault? Some say yes it is their fault and they do not get enough blame. Some say no, they are a product of their awful environment. I say both points of view are right. There is no contradiction. No paradox: in fact the paradox is a clue to look for another way of thinking. Move away from talking of blame.
People, including but not restricted to children, are programmed by their environments, and the things they watch on TV. Minds do have a strong mechanical, habitual nature. And everyone here knows it. Ever played tetris for weeks and then seen tetris figures everywhere you go? Your mind is mechanical; don't confuse it with you. Trust me, the tetris effect is the tip of a vast iceberg of habitual thought and emotion processes that most of us do not study in ourselves. We should, as the most frightening things are not "really" frightening when you know why you're reacting that way.
Back to environment. People are made resentful by the things that happen to them. Yet people including children are responsible for the TV they choose to watch. Often, they could do self-defence and other courses which would help them tackle bullies. They could talk to the other kids who are even more frightened and unhappy than they. You see, even children can be "blamed" for their own environmental programming, because they are presented with choices that they are afraid to take. Like taking a martial arts course, or talking to other strange kids, might be too scary, even if it's a patently good idea. Yet you cannot blame anyone for not doing something because they are too scared. Well, you can if you like but I assure you it does not help them to be less scared.
Do you blame the TV or the people? No, you should aim to teach the people to know how they are affected. There is nothing wrong with watching violent or playing violent games. But it does affect your habitual thoughts and emotions. So learn to be aware of the effects, and decide how to program yourself. This is the importance of know thyself. Well, one importance.
By the way, self-awareness lessens or enhances the effect of environmental programming on yourself, whatever you choose from situation to situation. This is the secret to being simultaneously free to do as you please while being in charge of the environment's programming of your own mind. This is why it's ok to play violent games, to love Marilyn Manson etc ;). Those here who "play games and they don't make me violent" are proof of this.
Everything outside is some kind of bully, until you know how to deal with it. And then it isn't -- it's your friend, or at least an amusing sideline.
Laying of blame really is not the solution. It is helping, because as one thing and the next thing are "blamed", they are scrutinised. Every bit of the struggle helps. But it's maybe not the most efficient route to freedom and happiness.
As someone wiser than me said: we are interested in solutions, not problems. Blame is being interested in problems.
To a person who is in the verge of killing themselves, or committing some nasty act towards others, just knowing that life does get better is a wonderful gift. You've seen it among the replies here already. Lives are transformed by this simple knowledge. This is a far more beautiful solution than anything that comes from blame, blame, blame.
Just don't use that as an exuse to pretend that violent, and indeed other depressing images don't have a mental effect. They sure do. On everyone. The secret of happiness is remembering to put this where it doesn't hurt.
Oh god, I could go on and on :-) Remember even nutcases like me were unhappy children once :-)
thanks for reading, btw life really does get lots better as you get older,-- Jamie
I agree totatlly. From early elementry I was always seen as the "smart kid." In third grade I was chosen to attend the "gifted" school once a week. It was one of the best and worst things that ever happened to me. On one hand, having the intellectual challenge was one of the few things that got me through school. On the other, it set me apart and made me a targe for ridicule.
By 7th grade it had become almost unbearable. Not a day went by that I didn't get picked on. I had given up and just started standing there while I was pummeled. Toward the end of the year my parents enrolled me in a martial arts class. Over the summer I trained extremely hard and incorporated what I was learing into my way of life.
I never had to fight in 8th grade. No one even tried. They didn't know that I had been taking classes- I just carried myself differently. Things started getting better. My freshman year of HS one person started a fight with me. I finished it very quickly and have never had to fight again.
Bullies have an uncanny way of detecting weakness. They also tend to fear those who have learned to truly respect themselves.
(Stupid teachers on the other hand you generally just have to live through...)
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
---
/. zen: Imagine a Beowulf cluster of Beowulf clusters...
It is strange how we have laws to protect our right to own a gun, but shooting someone is illegal. I see a big contradiction there!
Not if you can accept that guns have other purposes. And strictly speaking shooting someone is not alway illegal.
If there were no guns in the first place, we wouldn't have to own a gun to protect ourselves from other guns.
Putting asside the question of whether guns should be available there remains the fact that they are. We can't even control the proliferation of Nuclear Weapons for God's sake. What makes anybody think we can put the cat back in the bag and get rid of all guns? So wishing for such a world might be fun, but futile too.
I tend to agree that with everything that you said. Kids can be vicious, mean and nasty, but what's new? I'm 37 and I put up with it when I was in school. I was taunted because I was English in an American school. I was taunted because I was tall gangly and uncoordinated. I was taunted because other kids didn't like the colour of my house (It was pink, it was hideous, but was it worth abuse?).
I never killed myself, nor anyone else. That didn't happen, because of three things. My parents, while often clueless, were involved in my life, I had few friends, but those I had were of extraordinary quality, and I had a sense of right and wrong.
Regardless of how you define moral values (Judaeo/Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or any sense of absolute right and wrong). They all have a positive impact. Unfortunately it is not acceptable to talk about right and wrong. What's right and what's wrong is determined by the situation. This leads to kids adrift attempting to make decisions they shouldn't have to make. Many of these decisions should not be difficult, they should be instinctive, and the resulting decision should be the correct decision.
I'm saddened by the abuse that kids do to other kids. I can't believe that 30 years after I started suffering that abuse it is still acceptible to school administrations. However, saying that kids cause violence is equally as silly as saying violent video games cause violence.
Stand Fast,
Stand Fast,
tjg.
You raise an interesting point. However, I'm not sure that it's relevant.
You see, these "helpful" bits of advice are all well and good when someone is listening. When all that someone is able to focus on is pain... when the feeling is overwhelming that nobody actually gives a wet slap whether that person lives or dies... good advice and sage counsel that don't provide a quick fix are going to be ignored, and such little cantrips end up only wasting breath.
But it doesn't always make it effective either... and when the failures get covered with graveyard dirt, you have to wonder...
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
However, I also like to voice my little addendum: "Surviving being hit by a wrecking ball does not significantly improve your chances of surviving a second hit."
I mean, "suck it up," "deal with it," "get over it," and "it'll get better, just give it time" are all phrases that depressed teenagers lump into the category of "easy for YOU to say!" advice, and regard it as adult bulls**t. Many of them are wanting concrete solutions, and worse yet are not experienced enough to be able to say what exactly their problems are!
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
At least one local T.V station in my area has announced that 'THEY' will no longer cover national school violence. They will not show photos, name people or further the 'hype' as they do not wish to perpetuate the copy cats. After the last 2 California events our local schools had at least four 'threats'. Perhaps if more of the media would quit turning these events into 'Reality TV', the escalation would stop!
ah! the internet!! we may still screw up the world but NEVER again will we be able to claim IGNORANCE
Don't flame me, please :)
Media can be categorized into two groups: manipulative and reflective. Many shows that target young teens today (I know, I'm one) are manipulative, and give a different idea about what society actually is. Because of this media created world kids live in today, they see the "beatnicks" of our generation as outcasts, and treat them the same. The difference between this trend today, and fifty years ago, is that media has also gotten more violent. Killing not necissarily, but definately bullying, giving kids the tools to really emotionally upset some other kids today. Sports have gotten more violent, animosity between players directly influences kids. This situation is often reversed, I've often seen people designated "uncool" treating the supposed "cool" kids horribly, when they're just trying to be nice. It's a deep rooted war, and both sides are to blame, it's just that one group seems to be bigger in some situations.
The media is not only to blame for these rifts. By creating controversy over racial, religious, sexual, and other unnecissary issues, teens begin to make generalizations. The most obvious thing I can see in my school is the "Shades of Color" club, which promotes black awareness and such. They continually fight a civil rights battle that is already won. And I as the succeptible teen can't help but feel differently about African Americans. Movies about inter-racial relationships and them being a controversy, only serve to hurt our youth. If you stop making a controversy about homosexuality and its place in the world, kids will grow up without thinking twice about their best friend saying "I'm gay", they'll except it, and won't treat their friend any differently. Prejuidice is learned behavior, but until the world around our youth realizes this, it will constantly stay this way. Yes you all can probably cite numerous cases of persecution, but from my viewpoint as a teen, this is what is being communicated to us. Despite what the parents of the world think, they're sheltering hand only serves to hinder us, but the sad truth is, I doubt anyone will learn from this.
-----Zephyre
Even though there are 730 post I feel I need to put my 2 cents in anyway.
These school shootings really affected me. I was brought up very insecure, my mom left when I was young for drugs when I was little. My dad was an alcholic/workaholic and I was brought up in daycare.
When I was in High School (graduated in 92') me and a friend wanted to walk into the school and shoot it up. I had the guns to do it but luckily I realized it would end my future and I had a little bit of caring somewhere in me.
What these kids are doing is crying out for help. Its sad but I think someone had to do it. Children are being bullied and victimized into a point where they don't care anymore. Hopefully society will realize this and someone will start looking out for these kids. Those of us who made it to 18 and got the leave the prison (public schools) were just very lucky.
First off... ASS-croft is one step to the right of Attila the Hun. I would say I'm shocked that he made it to the post he's in, then I look and see the blithering moron we have in office and remember that half the US voted for him. Willingly.
Hell... can't blame me for that... I voted for a bush, but I voted for the smarter one!
It's interesting... he is saying that it's TV and video games that cause these kids to lash out, not the abuse, assault, or maybe even their "good Christian peers" treating them like shit. BUT, our courts say that if some totally barking mad, raving loonies call for the MURDER of people, they aren't to blame, even if they give out names and addresses.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
I was one of the kids that got picked on maliciously in school. I was shy and quiet, trying to figure out where I fit in the world. My problems were probably partially the cause and partially the result of the torment. I would be lying if I claimed that I never considered suicide or homicide, but I had just what I needed to get by. I have found, at least in my life, that humor is the great savior. When someone considers harming themselves, or others it is unarguably because they are not happy. Humor makes people happy; therefore it helps combat the desire to perform these actions. There have been many good points in the replies to this article, but I would like to add this to the list. It seems like the problem is everyone takes things too seriously. I think part of the reason I did not fall into the trap of furthering my problems by causing harm, is my father. He is a man who has some strong opinions about how the world should be, but at the same time takes everything with a grain of salt. He can see the humor in every situation. I have inherited this ability, and it is the greatest gift I could ever have received. Because of it, I now get along well with almost everyone I meet. In High School, where it seems these problems are at their worst, I was able to maintain friendships in which humor was a big part of communication. Granted there were still rough times, but there will always be rough times. If we (the human race) can use humor to heal our wounds perhaps this and many other problems will become less prevalent. Just my 0.02 USD.
Sig free since 2/6/2002
I left out the fact that my school is TJ (www.tjhsst.edu), which is one of the geekiest schools in the country, perhaps the world. I never felt at all out of place as a lover of computers, and a geek; and although it was perhaps, not as well respected, I never caught much of any flak for being an otaku, and currently sit with a group of 20+ every day for lunch. Sorry about that.
Maybe I'm stupid and Canadian, but in an urban population with a decent sized police force, there should be no good reason for people to have to carry around weapons.
Just how close is the nearest police station to your residence? I live in a town of approximately 80K people. However, I live outside the city limits, approximately 10 minutes from the sheriff's station. If someone was to break into my house, do you expect me to call the police and hide in my attic, hoping that the person rummaging through my fricking house does not find me before the cops show up? Get real, I say. Anyone who enters *my* house, the place where *my* family lives, deserves whatever force I can bring to bear on them. Better to be judged by 12, than carried by six as they say.
I mean, Jesus, I remember driving in LA on vacation and seeing a cop in her squad car with the shotgun holster mounted right in the front seat. I mean, holy shit, that thing's loaded.
If the shotgun wasn't loaded, what good would it do the cop if she pulled it out of the car ? The way some cops drive, you should be more concerned that the keys are in the car than the gun being loaded. Cars kill more people than guns, after all.
I try not to think about how many loaded weapons there must be if I enter into a family restaraunt in the states with my kids.
I never think about someone having a gun in a restaurant. I would be more concerned about someone leaving the restaurant drunk and killing someone on the road instead. It happens much more often.
Can't you see how this makes you all look like freaks to the rest of the world?!?
If having Constitutional rights that are non-existent in other countries makes me a freak, then let me know where the nearest sideshow is.
This brings up another quick question which may help find the answer to why it is happening to begin with. Why is this happening in America and not in other countries? Now, I am sure that similar incidents have happened in other countries, but why so much more often in America?
One thing that comes to mind if the amount of differences between students in the states. Most other countries have a bonding religion, ethics, moral beliefs etc. that are just not found in the U.S. Could it be America's diversity that causes these things to happen? What other explinations could there be?
I had no intention of going to the prom. I wasn't dating at the time (didn't really date through all of high school anyway), and I didn't see any point in wasting a lot of time and money on something that I wasn't going to enjoy. My parents, of course, were aghast at the idea.
My father suggested, "If you can't find anyone to go with you, why don't you go in drag?" I damned near choked--I'm not gay, but I had several gay friends at the time and I'm sure my parents were concerned. However, given their feelings on the issues of homosexuality, I was shocked at the suggestion. After regaining my breath, I said, "What in the hell are you talking about?"
Dad replied, "You know, if you have to go to a party by yourself, you go in drag." Much laughter from me followed, with a brief explanation on the difference between "drag" and "stag".
A somewhat related story... A friend of the family had, back in the 70s, decided not to go to the prom. His father informed him that he would be attending one way or another. If the kid couldn't find a date, his father was going to go out and hire the oldest, ugliest, most strung-out prostitute he could find, and that would be his date for the evening. Needless to say, he found a date pretty quickly. :)
Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
While bullies often falls under the category of 'boys will be boys', what has failed to be noticed is that the level of abuse has not only increased in quantity but in its quality as well. Now children are not just taunted by a bully, maybe beat up once... or the high school version, being alienated and ridiculed by clic'ish (I honestly don't know how to spell that)... rather it has evolved into a situation mimicking many prisons.
Ridicule has been replaced with emotional terrorism and a total innexcapable environment of verbal abuse and death threats. (often not only by peers but staff as well) Pranks and minor physical abuse (noogies and frogs) has been replaced with 'many on one' beatings, and weekly torture sessions. What is worse, is that both parents and staff, when confronted with this, excuse it as boys play... or then follow up by saying that 'life is a bitch' and you gotta learn to deal with problems on your own. I knew some staff that would say that the only solution was for the tortured student to 'deal with it' on his own. While the rule of thumb for bully mentality is that they are weak pathetic morons that are easily frightened when stood up to (or just defeated), that does not take into account ego. If the nerdy kid has the gall to stand up to the 'bullies' they are then seen as week and potential future victims of other bullies.
Because of this, I have seen my share of kids have the stuffing beat out of them. Although, to be honest, the majority of them were race related as the victim was white and the race-slur slinging bullies were black or hispanic. But then it is all the same as far as results go.
I do not plan on having kids anytime soon, but when I do, I want them to feel safe. Martial arts helps a lot, but what about other kids. What happens when this continues to worsen, while the politicians and 'well meaning' parents attack the wrong thing? What about accountability and responsibility? If these "Kids" are victimizing others, then they should face the consequences for their actions. No, not juvy... I am talking the county jail with the other scumbag predators. Boot camp (if done just like a real military branches (I know of one, maybe two) boot camp) has worked wonders in many cases... well who knows. This is waaaay too long and I don't care about spelling so THERE!
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
No one is that foolish and willfully ignorant of facts. Lets start from the bottom and work our way up...
OK, your last statement about violence as an answer to violence and such... that is very correct. History, in addition to sociological and psychological studies show that hypocritical 'solutions' like violence for violence end up causing not only the criminal to become more violent, but the victim as well (this includes family and associates of both as well). A logical extension of this is that through media, the extended public becomes more violent in nature.
Next, abolish death penalty. I agree, while people get emotionally and racially biased in many cases where it has been proven several dozen times that the person was guilty... the fact remains that there are those cases where it was later proven that the executed criminal was actually innocent (whether completely or partially to the extent of not justifying capital punishment). To put people's lives in the hands of a group of 'well meaning' people is foolish, as history shows. Other times and places (Europe is a famous for its "for the People" slaughters) it has been shown that it can be suprisingly simple to 'upgrade' capital crimes to include political crimes.
Change the President of the US, yadda yadda... FIrst of all, that just proves how biased and hypocritically one-sided the media is that you would spout this out. Texas is NOT the state with the most death sentences.. it is the one with the most recent EXECUTIONS. The difference is two-fold. One, the number of death row inmates is greater in other states, and two, the number of actual executions is only greater in Texas if you go back Ten years I think... might be greater. Another interesting FACT is that Al Gore was not only for the death penalty, but his state has one of the largest populations of death row inmates.
OK, another bout of logic and reasoning is this... BUSH did not execute these people. They were all sentenced before he even ran for governor... the majority were sentenced (along with the initial appeals and the requests for stays and further appeals by the governor being denied) during the tenure of a woman by the name of Ann Richards... a DEMOCRAT. These people were proven to be guilty, many after more than 30 appeals.
Educated TV, yadda yadda yadda. I agree... I only watch History, Discovery, TLC, Animal Planet, SciFi, etc... but I am not arrogant, illogical, irrational, foolish, hypocritical, willfully ignorant, or elitist enough to deny others their stupid mindless entertainment.... to do so is to be a Tyrant.
now for the biggy!!! Forbid weapons... Now could you explain first of all how this is to be done in reality. Sure, like socialism it sounds great... but it fails in practice because it must not only be enforced with violence, but only targets the lawful section of society that would not be the problem anyway. History has proven that criminals love disarmament strategies... many of the criminals move up to governmental positions then, thus dropping what little responsibility and accountability they had previously in favor of total (as in totalitarian) control and power over the peasants. That is called Tyranny, and whether it is Marxist socialism or National socialism it is all the same in the end. Power, corruption, terror and violence on the populations.
Another fact is one that you can EASILY research on your own. Look up the facts involving crimes and violent acts commited with guns, then look up those caused by other weapons (that includes objects not classified as weapons but put to violent use, like cars). Not only will you find (even with the recent problems) that gun violence ranks lower than the rest, but that in almost 99% of cases involving guns... the person obtained the gun illegally. Whether he 'borrowed' it from a lawful gun owner, or simply had an illegal gun... it proves that laws against law abiding citizens do not work and are an inneficent waste of time, effort and tax payers' money. Plus if you research some more you will find that the existing laws are NOT BEING ENFORCED. So that only compounds the issue, and begs the question, "Why would we logically add to a suite of programs that are not in use and have proven to be inneffective when actually used?"
Now on the other hand, if you wish to control your neighbor... if you do not like what he thinks, says or does. If you want to make sure that everyone lives by the standards that you set forth, regardless of the fact that it does not effect you and claim to create and "equal playing field" yet end up dividing the gap between the 'haves and have nots' even further, showering yourself and your supporters (party) with lavish wealth and benefits while stripping those others of any chance to improve by their own initiative... if you desire that, then go right on ahead and forbid guns. Historically weapons banning has never been the FIRST phase of tyranny, it is one of the later (but still towards the beginning) phases that serves to castrate the will and the ability of the people to defend themselves, thus making your goal of control over them simpler. Hitler, Musilini, Stalin, Ho Chi Min... the list goes on and on and on and on. You have a lot of shoulders to stand on good sir/maam, so go right on and make us proud.
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
mmm, yes, you are stupid and Canadian :)
There is perfect reason to carry around a gun in a urban or otherwise population. Where I live, a community of about thrity thousand on the west coast of Michigan, it takes the police about ten minutes to get anywhere. Although I don't know for sure, I imagine that the figure is about the same at the ironically named Santana High (discounting the school's security). A person who is properly trained in the usage of a gun can actually help prevent deaths in a school shooting. This happened to be the case with the cops that showed up after two people were dead and thirteen injured. As far as I can tell there was nothing especially 31337 that the cops did except fill out the paperwork that made everything official and make the arrest. Any administrator or teacher could have prevented at least one of those deaths and a couple of those injuries.
As far as the security at Santana High that was there at all times, I have no idea what happened, but I'm guessing that people hired as part of a PR gig probably weren't trained well nor prepared to actually wield their weapons.
The problem with the society in the States runs much deeper than access to firearms. It more has to do, imho, with a Christian establishment that seems so focused on wealth that I'm beginning to think that the name of their god is Mammon. The only thing the majority of people here care about is how to make the most money the fastest. There is no interest in enlightenment or brotherly love -- most people would sooner send sizeable amounts of money all over the world to teach heathens the word of their god than spend half that much on problems plauging their own communities. The problem is mostly people who come up with convoluted things like graduated driver's liscensing to curb reckless driving, yet can't see where the teenagers ever leared such atrocious driving from. It's people who use things like dress codes and school officials' powers to keep their children from dessing like sluts instead of instilling basic self-respect themselves. This entire problem of violence is so prevalent in the States because children imbibe a lack of value for human life from an older generation that just doesn't care.
As for myself, because I don't think that I could ever be prepared to defend myself or stop time until the cops arrive, I take comfort in the fact that so many people who are at least well-trained in the deadly arts are around me.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
No, no, no, no, NO! This is a stupid cultural myth that has got to fucking stop. Try reading this book (but don't buy it from Amazon).
By the way, "de-evolution" is nonsensical; evolution isn't directed.
Just trying to open someone's head! I mean "mind!" Open someone's mind, um, to the possibilities! With explosives!
I'm in highschool, and I actually prefer to be lost in the crowd, it's much easier to deal with. I like it when my teachers or people forget who I am, not only because I usually forget who they are due to a bad memory, but it's easier to deal with. In grade school and junior high I was picked on or whatever the hell you want to call it, and it's lessened now, but being in a relatively large school of about 2k+ and in classes from 20-25 helps if you just want to be left alone.
We all know what guns are for. Defending your family, killing rare or delicious animals and to keep the King of England from pushing you around.
There's a difference between zero tolerance and ratting out other people. I almost got kicked out of my junior high last year because some preppy kids (not that it really makes a difference, or maybe it does?) thought I was going to kill em. Did I? No. Did I get kicked out? Nope, because either the school psychartrist I had to goto believed me over them, or because the school didn't give a damn. Whatever it was, zero tolerance is if you bring a weapon of any sort to school (in mine if you took a box cutter out of the woodshop room you could get expelled, since thats what the zero telerance policy was) and ratitng out (where I think first thing they do is try to remove the student if they deem it serious enough, they didn't to me cause I had only gotten in trouble once.)
Re specifically, "Cultural change against bullying must come from the kids themselves"...
;-)
The operative word here is "kids". This is unfair and unrealistic to hope that somehow these 13 year old "future of our world" KIDS are going to solve this. Another poster's father wisely pointed out to him that these were the hardest years, and they are.
I personally believe the authorities are on to something with "zero tolerance", but instead of arresting kids for playing cops and robbers (just last week in New Jersey!) there should be "zero tolerance" for bullying. I'm not saying I think you can stop it, but you can stop sending the message that bullying is acceptable by no longer standing by and acting like something else is the cause.
My 4 and 5 year old boys are a microcosm in themselves of the problem: the 4 year old teases and makes himself a pest to the 5 year old, who then acts out (hitting, name calling) in retaliation. We want to teach the younger one to be kind to others and teach the older one how to deal with his anger when others aren't kind.
Then, after we've taught them, we'll write a book and win a Pulitzer...
The real problem is that children don't have rights and they're forced into a situation in which they don't have any rights (school). No wonder some of them go berserk.
If the same mental and physical abuse that occurs in schools took place in the workplace, it would be quickly taken care of (at least that's what the laws say).
What's needed is a Childrens Bill of Rights to address the untenable situation that's the reality for a lot of kids. It's really unconcionable to force children into such a horrible situation with no way out (well, blowing away other students is one way out).
I think part of the problem is that local media gives balanced reporting and thoughtful analysis of the problem, but as you go further away it becomes distilled, more cartoonlike, with the absurdity of the national news being the complete opposite of the local media and stimulating copycats - note the dispersion of the copycats after Columbine and Santana.
The local San Diego paper has had some pretty decent coverage, like this.
Searching uniontribune.com archives for things like Santana AND Granite Hills AND shooting, brings up a lot more (that is, when the search engine isn't broke - try a different set of dates).
Morbid humor is a healthy response to disasters. This is a yahaddabethere, but some people see the humor:
12:55 PM: shooting at Granite Hills.
1:30 PM: coworkers with kids there already out the door.
2:40 PM: I'm in the vanpool, news station droning on as they do when they don't have any new information, no one can find the police captain for the 2:30 news conference, bladdy-bladdy-blah. Driver finally punches the FM button to get away from it. I hear the first three notes, instantly name that tune, and sing out:
MY GUN BE JAMMIN'!
(nervous giggles from vanpool)
And Bob Marley replies: I wanna jam it wid you! We're jammin'!
Gales of laughter from vanpool, taking several minutes to die away completely.
Oracle and unix guy.
Llama Keeper:
BULLSEYE.
No pun intended. heh.
Dr Helen Smith, a forensic psychologist, has researched the connection between the conditions that lead to prison riots and the conditions that lead to school shooting. They're similar. Her website is at www.violentkids.com.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
As a geek, high school was tough on me. I was told not to fight back, and rather notify a teacher or other authority. However, who wants to be the nark? Most likely, they would have picked on me even more after being given a 3 day vactaion away from school. So everytime I was picked on, or physically bullied, I just took it. I learned to constrain my anger, but it basically built up over the years.
After four years, and in college, I'm glad all that stress is gone. However, deep down inside, I wish I never listened about not resolving my problems physically. I swear that was the only thing those assholes understood. Fist in face == pain == don't do it again.
However, I wasn't at the the worst end of the spectrum either. I knew people who kept lists of those they hated, and those they were going to get revenge upon. Take this one step further, and you have Columbine.
While schools tell the students to be good little children, actual assaults by bullies go unpunished, as well as harrassment that would be prosecuted in our politically correct world. But the victims are the ones that get in trouble when they do anything - if they speak out they are the bad ones for threatening (apparently instead of actually committing acts of violence that they are more often the victim of). If they don't, they are in trouble for not reporting or being to passive. If they do report, nothing happens.
All they or anyone wants is to be treated equally. And it seems that only Sam Colt made it possible for people to be equal.
For those who think it excessive, how else is someone who weighs 150 lbs (and may be of the gender without upper body strength) going to defend themselves against a 250 Lb football player whose father can afford tae quan do lessons for him? Dial 911? Oh, I forgot, they've banned cell phones in school too.
Schools used to be a lot less tolerant of individuality (at least outwardly expressed), but they were safer too. When you tolerate too much, aggression tends to win by natural selection over passivity. If we want schools to be havens where children learn, we should have uniform rules and enforce them. It might be less "fun", but bullying and depression and suicide would go away, and the purpose of schools is learning, not "fun".
And let me also place blame where it belongs. Many children are just another "thing" in their parent's portfolio. The vacation, the SUV, the baby, the sunroom, all wanted and planned for. This generation of children have become just another material item, and they realize it. Today's parents pay in guilt by voting for restrictions, and buying the best daycare, tutors, psychologists, ritalin, but don't give of their selves or time. They have a 30 minute quality-timer.
I was blessed with a mommy and daddy. People that I could not find a moment or any evidence that anything else was more important when I was growing up.
This generation isn't lost. Or even misplaced. Except in the sense that their souls are merely 30 minute entries in their custodial parent's daytimer, and the two day weekends when they visit their other parent. They know exactly how important they are. The wonder is that there are so FEW suicides. Don't we return or otherwise dispose of defective products?
No one should look to government - especially the schools - to even try to fix this. They can't grow a soul.
Children with character, and who have been instilled with honor and integrity don't depend on peer acceptance, nor does the physical pain of bullying bleed through to cause emotional pain. If they know they are precious, external events won't change that. If they aren't taught values, they will drift until they eventually crash.
It is difficult to smuggle such a large gun into a school unless you saw it off...btw, that last shooting in CA involved a shotgun....
My suggestion is that you don't try to prevent the exclusion at all. Life sucks. That isn't going to change. People are going to disagree, people are going argue, people are going to hate each other. This is life. Children need to be taught how to get along with people they don't like. Sometimes that requires them to "improve", and other times it merely requires accepting that there are some people in the world you're just not going to get along with. Ultimately it's the child's own decision how much s/he wants to change, and how much s/he just wants to accept the exclusion. As long as the problem doesn't become a physical one, the school should only be there to listen and to offer its wisdom and suggestions.
In my middle and high school there was an automatic suspension for both members of a fight (assuming both members threw a punch). I quickly learned after my first fight (of which I threw punches only to defend myself) how not to get into a fight in the first place. As for not getting into verbal fights, that took me through college and my first years of employment to learn, largely because no one ever taught me how to be assertive. Also because I was under the mistaken assumption that I was being excluded because of something about me, not because I was a punk-ass kid.
There's a prayer of sorts that is said at the end of many Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." I think this is very appropriate for the excluded children in today's society.
It's hard to make generalizations. Each child has different problems. But in my experience, there are no kids who were completely excluded from everyone who don't bring it upon themselves. Sure, there were those who weren't part of the "cool" crowd, but except for the bitter ones who got along with no one, they still had plenty of friends and acquantainces. Saving the bitter ones from the pain they're experiencing will only produce bitter adults who only have more access to guns and explosives.
I'm not suggesting forced "improvement" for these excluded children. That's up to the student and (arguably at this age) his/her parents. Each person needs to find his/her own balance between being true to oneself, and having everyone love you. In some cases the two are mutually exclusive. My own personal decision is to find a balance between the two. I think many of these students want to improve themselves, and just don't know how.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
I don't understand your comments about religion. You seem to want everyone to act like an atheist in public, which seems pretty intolerant to me. Won't the better culture need to accommodate people who think differently? What's wrong with a little diversity here?
So I guess the book is Jinking for Dummies? Chicken Soup for the Victim's Soul?
High school triathalon: run, duck, and shoot.
----------------------------------------
Yo soy El Fontosaurus Grande!
blog |
Please explain how it is possible to first kill yourself, then kill others.
Zombies, man. Zombies.
--
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
SSssshhhhhhh....
*I don't think he's seeing any posts with a mod level lower than 1.*
Happy people make bad consumers.
Well the one preview I remember was one I saw in the theaters while the Matrix was playing. That alone had a friend and I convinced to see it in the theaters. It's a pretty hard movie to market because the thing is hard to explain before you see it.
If you haven't already, you should check out the book that the movie was based on. Much more psychotic and really good on its own.
-Tyler
"Did you know that urine is sterile? That's right. You can drink it."
Happy people make bad consumers.
Hehe. "My honor student shot your kid bully."
Funny as hell. Unfortunately, there's no way you could get away with that without catching a lot of heat. Great idea your brother has, though. Wish I had some mod points for you.
Happy people make bad consumers.
this must be one of the deepest, most interesting stories i've ready by katz. i completely agree with all his points, however, i do not think that we should forget about those that go out and kill others to pay more attention to those that kill themselves. i think they deserve equal attention. the new government that we elected, being primarily republican and overly conservative likes to blame things like tv, video games, and the internet, not realizing that these things don't have as much of an effect on people's lives as they think. people kill others because of more psychological reasons than anything else. if kids are playing games that involve a lot of violence, then their parents need to start being real parents and not allowing this. the problem with kids today is not society or the media or video games, it's the amount of parenting that takes place. parents nowadays tend not to punish their children because punishing has been deemed bad by most people. they allow their kids to go out and do whatever they please, simply saying "no" or "i don't like that." at the same time, these kids learn things that they shouldn't until they are more mature and that's where we end up with younger teenage pregnancies, younger kids pulling guns on each other, and younger kids swearing in public and at their parents. parents lately do not know how to control their own kids. i personally was brought up in a household where violence, bad language, and sex were all deemed as bad, and as i got more mature things changed. i don't think i ever swore until i was halfway through high school, and i still refuse to swear in front of my parents. it's respect that kids don't have and that parents don't show. parents are the best role models for their kids and they need to be more of that. i don't blame bullies or video games or violence on tv or even the internet for the problems kids have now. i blame the parenting they receive, or should i say, the lack of parenting they receive. this is the problem with the younger generations of kids. i am not very old myself, and i noticed a lot of changes in the people younger than me. i would tak the bus from high school and get off and see 4th and 5th graders running around jumping on each other swearing like there's no tomorrow, talking about having sex with this girl or making out with that girl. i thought girls were gross at that age, i never had any sexual desires then. their parents are what need to teach them things. another problem i've seen is htat kids nowadays seem to be physically maturing much faster than they used to. and when your hormones mature much faster than your mental maturity, you run into many problems. i've seen girls in grammar school dressed like sluts, and the reason for his is because their role models are people like britney spears and jennifer lopez who walk around wearing practically nothing. their parents need to not allow them to watch things like that. that way they won't dress like that. parents aren't teaching the morals they used to be teaching. it all just stems down to the parenting these kids receive, and until that changes, more problems will arise.
please me, have no regrets.
What'd you miss out on college? All the benefits you mention to high school, plus your psrents aren't around to bug you, you only have classes a few hours a day, and the people are (in general) much nicer. High School sucked, undergrad was the best time of my life. (Officer Basic Course wasn't bad either, but there was a good bit more responsibility to go with the fun)
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
I'd likely PAY for a bunch of those... email me
You could've hired me.
Maybe not, but death is death, whether you take your own life, or the life of another.
--
Well put, man.
I have seen first hand (sadly, haven't experenced it though) how dedicated teachers positively affect children. I think this most often happens in private schools with small enrollments.
If teachers are not overwhelmed and can give personal attention to as many students as possible, this causes the children to greatly respect those teachers (devotion even).
"Drug related crime" is a misnomer, "prohibition related crime" is the more accurate and correct phrase.
An opposing viewpoint: In the Los Angeles Times today there was a column defending the school bullies and blaming that nasty 'ol Bill of Rights instead (it's media and guns! Get them both!).
Information wants to be free -- but informants want to be paid.
The newspapers have a standing rule NOT to print false alarm fire alarms for the explicit reason that they do not want copycat kids doing the same thing. Yet they print, front page, about school shootings, even they are lower today than ever before. School shootings are on the decline for goodness sake.
Want to make the front page? Want everyone to know your name? Guess how to do it. Gee, when you don't make anything but the local paper it's not really worth it, but if you believe you're ignored, the news papers are only too happy to help you achieve noteriety by splashing your name from coast to coast.
Now if only they would print the same place, in the same type face about people using firearms as defensive tools, the crime rate would drop faster than it has since the 'shall issue' laws went into effect.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
Most of us grew up with bullys, most of us grew up picked on by someone (even if you were the bully, SOMONE picked on you.) Maybe it's time to take into account the idea that life is not handed to you on a silver platter and let kids learn what it's like to actually achieve their goals instead of requiring passing them even though they don't learn a darn thing. Maybe that will have them learn enough self esteem that they will know life is way to precious to waste and that they had better make use of everything they have.
Pandering to everything that sounds good and feels good is NOT an answer, unfortunately that seems to be the way the schools have gone to. Don't care about learning that there is failure in life, make the kid feel good about theirself even though they have done nothing to deserve it.
Maybe it's time to get the heck away from the give me attitude and make the kids earn their way again and then they will get the idea that they ARE responsible for what they get and not rewarded for breathing.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
I think it is time for to again post the link to the sad but true article on The Onion.
Damn, shame to have all of those lives go to waste, crap, why can't the shy people all congregate in one area so we can all get together and blow stuff up, err, wait, I mean talk to each other together?
Seriously though, the main issue is that _EVERY_ other minority class out there is much better represented then the outcasts of society. Hell, there are gay rights groups, lesbian rights groups, black gay rights groups, asian gay rights groups, asian wiccan gay rights groups, black athlets who are being tauted support groups, and so on. Not a single group for people who are of ANY race ANY religion ANY sexual orintation but are not of the standard personality types. Hell, that is seriously screwed up!
The blame should be put on the parents of the bullies for raising piss ant kids. If you fuck up as a parent it is YOUR responsability. Teasing CAN BE FATAL, and parents who raise kids who do tease should be considered accomplices in murder, plain and simple.
Yes yes, I know, parents don't have control over what their kids do at school.
Bullshit they don't. If that kid is so damn afraid of f*cking up that they DO NOT DARE screw around I can PROMISE you that they won't be bullying or teasing anybody!!
For even more of a long term solution, try guilt. It does wonders. You see, if people feel GUILTY for hurting other people, then they won't do it. Bullies do not feel any guilt, the parents did not teach the bullies to feel guilt. Ooops, still the parents fault! Sure sure, after a certain age we have to start blaming the kid, but hell, when ever we hear about a jock drinking himself to death or horribly failing at robbing a store, we all wonder, WTF are that kids parents like.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
>Under US law, most of the male citizens are,
>in fact, militia members. Unorganized militia,
>but militia nonetheless... the militia ARE the
>people.
Um, no. If you'd like to join the militia and defend the United States, see your local Army National Guard recruiter.
The private/local community militias of Revolutionary War days over time developed into state-based units by the Civil War (hence all those regimental names on both sides from such-and-such a state like '23rd Wisconsin Infantry Regiment' for example), which persisted to World War One.
During that 1870-1915 period, the state units were the bulk of the US (land) armed forces, the actual active Army were amazingly small compared with those kept by other 'powers' (especially considering the vast continental space to defend). And you could even still get together a group of your friends to volunteer and rush off to battle together, like Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders did in Cuba.
When the US entered World War Two and the draft was instituted, the traditional organization and training of the state regimental units was insufficient for the neccessities of the modern industrialized and mechanized warfare, and for most intents and purposes become real Army units.
After the war, these units (now regularized as the National Guard) returned to their local home stations, but now as more standardized units that played a vital role in national defense throughout the Cold War and as a part of the total Army to the present day. Many National Guard units trace their lineage back to Revolutionary War days in honor of those original militias, and of course, National Guard units still come under the dual control of state Governors and Adjutant Generals and the Federal chain-of-command up to the President.
The 'militia' of 1789 has evolved over American history into the National Guard of 2001, and its mention in the Constitution certainly doesn't justify unorganized reactionary gangs to play around in the woods like eight-year-olds with lethal weapons harboring some irrational anti-government paranoia.
I have been in the Active Army for eight years (including a year in the Second Infantry Division on the DMZ in South Korea), and the National Guard for another six, (including a year on peacekeeping duties in Bosnia), and to most professional soldiers all the 'militia' talk bandied about is at best a joke... or worst, dangerous fantasy if it encourages people to live in our communities with assault weapons in the closet.
>Right now, you're probably thinking,
>"what do I need to shoot the government
>for?" Well imagine this scenerio: government
>takes guns away from all citizens. The only
>people carrying guns now are police and
>military. The government starts doing things
>you don't like, what are you going to do?
>Throw stones at them? Tiananmen square anyone?
The only people who should be carrying guns *ARE* the police and military. Only the state has the right to the use of force to maintain order.
What do you do if 'the government' starts doing things you don't like? You vote. That's what you're supposed to do, not start marching on Washington DC with your posse. Personally, I'm incensed that President Bush has just trashed the Kyoto Protocol and doomed the planet, but the proper method of change in the United States is by election(*), not the violent overthrow of the state.
(*note: offer not necessarily available in Florida.)
Your anti-goverment paranoia is amusing, but the first thing you forget is that in the United States, the government IS the people. Including the police, including the military. The rabid reactionary concept that there is some big conspiracy to 'take guns' from people and impose some kind of police state like the idea posted above is hilarious.
Turning a blind eye to the problem is partly what has caused this type of thing to increase. I don't think waiting for it to die down is any kind of intelligent solution.
-- b0rk.
>>Yet, this problem of children going berserk killing people is only a relatively recent phenomenom.
No, remember the Boomtown Rats song "I don't like Mondays"? That was based on a true story about a girl who shot kids an her school playground form her house with her father's gun. In true American media tradition, a TV station phoned her house and asked her why she was doing it.
"I guess I just don't like Mondays" was the reply.
That was in 1978...
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
Oh and you think that your wonderful statements about crime rate will have ANY influence on how little kids gain access to guns? If a gun is in the house - a child can potentially find it. If the child finds it, he could play with it, kill himself, bring it school and kill someone else, or whatever.
Keep something else for defense - carry a stun gun or something - regular guns kill. If you care about the safety of your kids, think HARD - is a gun REALLY necessary?
Chris
I am a father. I won't pretend to have all of the answers, but I do tend to be very opinionated when it comes to raising kids because I am annoyed with the lack of parental guidance that I've seen. That being said, I think what many kids are lacking these days is RESPECT. No, not just for parents and "elders", I'm talking about for anyone/anything.
How does one person's disrespect affect others? It's simple - you show disrespect for one's feelings, space, or property, that person becomes angry. Anger leads to many things - and in the right person, could lead to harm (didn't intend on this to sound like Yoda's spiel in Star Wars Episode 1 =). I really don't need to explain that further. I remember seeing this all the time when I was in school. In fact, I remember doing it to a couple of kids myself - and I regret it, because when I think back of them I think - what was I mocking them for - they looked different? talked different? weren't as strong? couldn't kick the ball in kickball? It's not right. It doesn't get you anywhere.
A child's social skills need to be developed right away to alleviate some of these problems. Parents need to play more active roles in the kids' lives. These are things we hear all the time, but do parents really heed the advice? I don't know. Unfortunately, our society (I speak of my American society, others may be different) seems to be very $money$ oriented nowadays. Everyone wants to make more money than everyone else so they can have more stuff. Of course, this is all at the expense of a home life. Whatever happened to the 9-5 job? This might seem like a tangent, but it's not - parents work late they don't see their kids - and for what? An extra buck? Granted, there are a lot of us out there who need to work late to support our families because the money just isn't there, but others - where are your priorities? If you have a family - what comes first - the job or the family? Corporations need to see this too.
Videogames aren't to blame - although there is absolutely no way I am letting my 5 or 6 year olds play Quake or Unreal Tournament or any of the "blood" games. I guess part of me feels that they show a "disrespect" for life, and kids first need a foundation that helps them understand to respect life. To be honest, I don't know when I'm letting them play the blood games. I'm sure the issue will arise in the next 5 years or so, but until then - forget it. I don't let the kids see them or play them. Me, I enjoy the games thoroughly, but I've got my moral foundation and won't let something like a fictional frag screw with my real life. With kids - let's work on the social and moral traits first. Again, it's not the games themselves that are to blame for kids pulling a Columbine. There are so many other factors it isn't funny.
Of course, here's another thing that'll really get a rise out of everyone, and I'm honestly not trying to throw flamebait here - gun control and other potential weapon control. No one, absolutely NO ONE is going to tell me that it is safe to keep a gun in the same house as a child. Regardless of whether or not you've got it locked up or hidden kids can find a way. You can't make assumptions.
I know I kinda jumped around a bit, but the bottom line is - parents need to put their priorities in order and be positive influences on their kids. How the heck are they going to learn? You shouldn't expect a school to do everything for you. YOU teach them respect. Teach them that it is wrong to put other kids down. Ask them how they'd like it if that was done to them. Let's stop being REACTIVE and become PROACTIVE. You can't just hope that your kid won't be like the one that just shot another one on TV. One of your roles as parents is to raise our children the right way and you can't do that if you don't take an active role in their lives.
Chris
I see the connection - the arts can be an outlet for the kids. With your feelings about politics and politicians aside - don't you think that it might be good for kids to have an outlet at school? Extra-curricular activities in general are great for this. I think the arts could be too.
Thinking that ghosts are chasing them. Don't forget that occasional fruit or pretzel!
This is going to sound corny, but watch Disney's "Hook". It tells a good story about a father who places too much emphasis on his career and not his family then learns an important lesson from it.
America has slowly become more aware of school violence in the past decade. This is perhaps a poor assessment of the reality: "less that 1% of all homicides among school-aged children (5-19 years of age) occur in or around school grounds or on the way to and from school." In addition, about 2% of all serious disciplinary offenses occurring in schools, during school hours were violent altercations involving a firearm or other weapon; approximately 105 violent deaths (1994 to 1996) (85 of which considered murder) occurred on campuses in a two year period, not all of them necessarily deliberate or with a gun. Perhaps a crusade against heart disease would save more lives than against school shootings, but the vivid imagery of "the media" presents school violence as a serious problem. While school violence is a problem, it is not the problem; the value placed upon school violence is absurd. Despite any irrationality behind its hubbub, school violence illuminates a more complex problem than bloodshed in schools. School violence demonstrates an utter depravity and lack of humanitarianism in the current generation; the carnage in schools represents a more acute difficulty than the deaths of 105 students. The carnage in schools represents the cruelty of an idle humanity.
America has, in a sense, become too luxurious for its own good. It has stagnated. Up until the end of World War II, America was occupied. The American Revolution, westerly expansion, the Civil War, industrialization, the Spanish-American War, World War I, a quick bout of depression, and World War II all kept America's hands full for almost 200 years. America is similar, in many ways, to the Roman Empire: it grew and grew, always occupied with an invasion (three Punic Wars kept Rome busy for almost 200 years, for instance) or further expansion. Rome's breaking point was reached, however, and its modus operandi failed it. An idle Senate and great class-battles weakened Rome, allowing northern barbarians to take over. The U.S. grew and was constantly occupied, mainly with fighting, but has reached the limit of the capitalist mode; like Rome, the classes have massive contrast, and, like Rome, there is no overriding societal goal. In short, America has ADHD and nothing to do.
The only solution for so great a problem - the dawdling of a society - is collapse. Society is a phoenix, and it hastily approaches its nadir. America has two choices: either attempt a societal, cultural, and political revolution and suffer the fate of Bolshevik Russia; or accept its own demise gracefully and come out that much the better for it.
Sources:
CDC Media: Facts About Violence Among Youth and Violence in Schools
U.S. Department of Education: Principal/School Disciplinarian Survey on School Violence (see second table)
Mike Greenberg
http://www.yourmothernaked.com
Why the term de-evolve? Is it an evolutionary step to neglect children? What the hell is so hard about having one parent work, and the other not work? Get a smaller house, or an apartment. Buy an old car. But don't neglect your children because you think it's too hard to have one parent not work...
I swear, I get so pissed off by people who think that all women have to work, or else they're being cheated somehow... If you talked to most mothers, they would probably say that they'd love to stay home with their kids full time, but they have to make ends meet. The answer isn't for them to work, it's for one of the parents to try to get a better education, and a better job, and cut back on their expenses, so they CAN do it.
Some people have lost sight of common sense in the search for equal opportunities...
"IMHO this is kinda an endless circle. I live in canada, don't own anything more dangerous than a hunting knife I take camping, and have never, ever needed anything more violent for any reason. I've never been mugged, shot at, stabbed, or had a gun pulled on me at a bar."
Guess what? I live in Montreal, and I've been mugged at gunpoint. Fortunately the 30 year old coke addict decided to beat me instead of shooting me. This sort of this is not as uncommon around here as you think. If a crackhead who can't afford 20$ for his next hit can get his hands on a gun with little problems, anyone can. It is not in any way difficult to purchase a gun in Montreal for under 200$ CDN. Anyone who wants one can get one.
FYI, the bastard was caught and did 3 years. Not long enough in my opinion, but it was a victory nonetheless. I find it sickening that Canadian laws prevented me from being able to defend myself against an attack that was a clear and present danger to my life.
Matt
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
Younger kids witness this and then they take it to the next level against the peers that THEY single out. It's not going to stop anytime soon and things are going to keep gettng worse. You can take away all the video games and all the movies and all the whatever and i guarentee it won't stop. You can't fight back against 1000 people and win without a gun or a bomb, and if you're desperate or apathetic enough, you will.
Stop letting kids be destroyed. I am a victim and always will be, I know I would be totally different today if it wern't for what I went through. It will haunt my for the rest of my life, in my thoughts, dreams, nightmares.... You wouldn't want to go through it, dont let anyone else.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
When I was a kid. I was always the smallest in my class and I got bullied relentlessly. I remember fantasizing constantly about exacting revenge on my tormentors. I am very glad I had no access to weapons, as I might well have used them. The worst punishment I was able to inflict was with a cast I had on my arm. I bonked one of those fuckers over the head and he ran home crying to his mother.
I am so sick of hearing the politicians blow smoke with their stupid ideas such as hanging the ten commandments in school or making students address their teachers as sir or ma'am or blaming the internet (like our wonderful idiot in chief) or blaming video games, etc.
If I really had to pin blame on something, perhaps one factor is the fact that we have an entire generation of latchkey kids and we have some situation that is loosely analagous to "Lord of the Flies." For instance, it has been demonstrated in the laboratory that juvenile rats, removed from their parents and put in cages together become much more aggressive and violent.
"What makes big news -- and what doesn't -- is always telling. We hear a lot about suburban white kids who get gunned down in schools by their peers. "
Yes, I feel we should go there, just as Mr. Katz felt "we" (or the media) are focussing on the kids who retaliate loudly (John brings gun to school. John kills people.) I haven't heard the media raise concern over the apathy of some of our kids in school today. No, I'm not talking about, "oh, I don't feel like doing home work today", I'm talking about the kids who shoot the guidance counselor simply because they didn't like counselor asking them to think about their future.(What you want to know about my future for b**ch? None of your f***n business!).
How come we don't hear about that? That the system is trying so hard to push these kids to learn, to "do something" and they shoot up the place to fight back? Its so fucking alarming when Tommy from Oregon, who is in band, who never had a girlfriend, and was a quite student just snaps... [Yep that there one was worth a documentary on Dateline!].
Maybe one day when I am going shopping and I hear a group of people, tackling the problem that there needs to be some way to help Tommy in Oregan and help John in Richmond I'll die happy.
void rant_on_violence(void) {
Can you truly have a discussion about School violence without adressing the issue of firearms?
Yes, very easily, by ignoring the symptom and examining the cause...as someone wrote earlier in this topic.
School violence is nothing new. Anywhere. What is new, or at least newer, is the level that violence has escalated to. And as someone else wrote earlier, the cause boils down to apathy on the part of the "grownups" (in quotes because all I see are mature bodies, not mature minds). Day-care centers are holding pens for the kids while the parents go off and try to increase their stashes of the Almighty Dollar(tm). Kids aren't spending any (here comes the buzzword...wait for it...) quality time with parents because a lot of parents don't seem to care. The few that get pushed too far make the news. Others either hide it better, control it better or get the attention and help they need (instead of want).
IMO the school staff and administration are as much to blame in this as the parents, if blame is something that must be assigned (I'm not convinced it is yet). For exactly the same reasons...more concerned with their careers and income streams and mortgages and credit card bills than they are with the welfare of the children placed into their care.
Simply blaming the so-called "ready availability" of firearms is a kneejerk reaction to a symptom. Look for the cause of that symptom; it's a lot deeper and harder to spot than the local pawn shop, sporting-goods store or gun show. And eliminating that cause is, IMO, what's going to take the most time and effort. But again, we run into the same problem: apathy. Or perhaps laziness would be a better word. In this instant-gratification society of easy 'Net access, microwave dinners, and so on, nobody seems to be willing to step up to the mill and grind out the proper actions needed to eliminate that cause. And the problem isn't restricted to the US, either, not by a long shot...but the US gets most of the attention for it because of our vaunted First Amendment rights to free speech. No, I'm not advocating eliminating those rights. But I am all for working very hard to convince "news" editors that by playing up these episodes, they're perpetuating the problem.
Our society needs to rethink its priorities. And those priorities need to include the children we've brought into the world, and who will inherit that world once we move on. We need to teach a lot more in the way of ethical and moral behaviour, and a lot less about economics and accounting and quick-fix living. That's the logical first step in reducing the problems that are resulting in such events as Columbine, Santee or Fort Gibson.
'Nuff said.
} ;
All the world's an analog stage, and digital circuits play only bit parts.
BZZT. Wrong answer. We could just say lack of morals and leave it at that and be fine, but now we have to go drag the big JC into it and, hey, let's just post the Commandments in school. You know, so we really let the kids know they shouldn't be killing, raping, and pillaging, because that's what kids do at recess these days in our hedonistic society right?
Sorry, but religion's really caused more problems than its ever solved (when applied to culture and society). I don't remember ever seeing on TV an atheist up on a stage, yelling about gays, Jews, etc. to get donations via phone.
I don't want this to be a troll (trying real hard to restrain), and I wouldn't want you to change your whole outlook because of my say-so. Simply go down to your local library (or take a local college course) and get some information on European History from 100 B.C. to the Renaissance. Get some knowledge. Then, if you still want to instill traditional Christian Morals in my kids, we'll talk some more.
By the way...
"What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris
It's unfortunate how many unknowing and unexperienced politicians (in the realm of video games) are so quick to condemn "excessively violent" entertainment. I find this a bit shocking from Mr. Ashcroft, as he definitely seems reasonable and in agreement with geeks on other issues such as Carnivore.
Okay, so much for having any karma.
<Rant>
How many students are actually killed in school shootings?
Compare those numbers to the number of alcohol related deaths. Tobacco related deaths. Cancer related deaths, Even AIDS related deaths. I bet obesisty causes more deaths than school shootings. Anyway, you get the idea.
Aren't we putting our resources in the wrong areas? I despise the polititians that put all the emphasis on "the kids" as if it's more important to save one of their lives versus say 2 Tobacco related deaths, knowing that they'll get more votes for showing compassion for kids.
</Rant>
Sorry for sounding so heartless. I just get pissed off when people like politicians profit from the misery of others.
I agree.
Frankly, I think gangsta rap videos are more of a problem to young minds than video games. Kids know that games aren't real. Knowing that gangsta rap "artists" are just wannabe thugs is a little more difficult.
Taking away Guns or video games isn't going to solve any problems any better than getting rid of Napster will eliminate music pirating.
I think the point here is that it is not the NORM. I've worked at about 20 different companies over the past 15 years (took me a while in the beginning to settle on a career path) and I've NEVER seen a company-led prayer. I know America is different wherever you go, but I really can't believe this is a norm for the country as a whole (I'm from South Dakota and currently live in California and I've seen a lot in-between).
>it's nowhere near as stressful as high school was!
It's true. IRL, there's more stressors, but they are easier to overcome, since you have full control over them. If you are beaten up IRL, you get the cops on the agressors ass. If you are broke, you get a job. Hate your boss? Look for work elsewhere. Etc...
In highschool, your stressors weren't something you were allowed to overcome. Need money? Can't get any, you're just 14! Got beat up in the school yard bad enough to go to hospital? Just try to find a cop that cares. Can't deal with that nutcase teacher that kicked you off of the school computers for 6 months for running file manager (this happened to me)? You can't get anything done -- I tried, even though at that point I was 18, it didn't matter. I even phoned the Human Rights board at the school (hey, I was mad and didn't know exactly who to get involved) and they simply pushed the job aside -- "Talk to your principal". So what can I do? Enroll myself in the school 2 hours away? That isn't an option.
And that's the problem. Without control over your stress it becomes unmanageable, IMHO. For a while in highschool I was popping nearly a bottle of Advil every couple of months to deal with the constant stress headaches. I've been in college for 3 years now, regularly getting all-nighter assignments, and yet I still haven't polished off a bottle of Advil in that time. It's just so much better to decide for yourself.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
So maybe they should have a phone number for
calling in the bullies(and other taunting types)
as apposed to turning in those who are being bullied...
Cause not symptom...
-Galapas
This reminded me of an article I read in the Winnipeg Free Press about three years ago. During the time I was in Winnipeg, a rash of arson plagued the city. Kids, 10-19 years old, set fire to abandoned houses.
Firefighters, often responding to fires in houses burned two and three times over, were at risk for injury as these houses were apt to collapse due to the severe damage.
In the article, the Winnipeg Fire Cheif, despite his anger at sending his men into very dangerous situations, didn't blame the kids. He said something to the effect of, "They [kids] have nothing else to do -- nothing to keep them busy, nothing to keep them out of trouble. We need to find ways to keep kids out of trouble, be it evening programs, sports, academic pursuits."
Contrast his view with the typical American view of things - spend money not on enriching pursuits and positive activites, but on more police enforcement and juvenille detention centers.
The thoughts and activities of a society manifest itself in its youth. Canada is no utopia but seems to recognize that jail only makes for meaner and more bitter citizens.
No sig is worth reading.
> It is a complicated problem and it might even be one that cannot be solved today or even ever. But we can't make headway if we fall back into old and tired arguments.
Very true.
Let's also not overlook the achievable things we *can* do right now. There is a tendency to talk about what is wrong and to spend huge effort in accurately pointing fingers. That helps at first, but at some point it is no longer moving things forward to solve the problem.
It would have much more startling effects if we each went out and took one positive step. Go to your neighborhood school and ask how you could help volunteer just a few hours one day a week. Whatever you have free. One day a month.
If everyone that read Slashdot found just one kid that reminded them of themselves and helped them just a little, it could change the whole school system. If we think that parents aren't doing a good enough job, go meet the kids at your local school - find out! Help any way you can, but get out and do it. Then we'll each find out what's really going on and make a difference in it. Just visiting the schools will be a wakeup call.
"Hi, I live in this town, I don't have any kids myself, but I'm worried about the kids that go here - what can I do?"
We don't have to solve the whole problem or fix the whole world. If we each take a little, tiny nibble out of it, things will get a lot better.
Imagine it. Do it.
I've been to engineering meetings in the USA where problems encountered in designs were met with a "prayer" session. Sheesh - why don't we just sacrifice a goat or virgin or two to Baal to help our sales team.
It's incredibly obvious that you have never been to the US. Someone else already pointed out how any company in the US would be sued so fast if this even happened. Since there isn't as many lawyers in Europe than the US, this is more likely to happen in Europe...
Stop. Just stop all of this. Asshole bullies are not all like poor Nelson Muntz, who is from a broken home. Growing up, I held a tenuous grasp on pseudo-popularity. This meant I didn't get me ass kicked daily, but I couldn't stop others from suffering this fate. The bullies? They had wonderful parents who cared very deeply for their kids. They were not economically disadvantaged. These kids were BORED. That's all. Bored kids with a prediliction for two things. Sex and violence. Since sex was a ways off (age wise), they turned to violence. I remember terrible things being done to kids who never deserved it, and those things being forgotten within the span of minutes after the act took place.
Here's the point. Kids are responsible. They are smarter than any politician has ever given them credit for. Smart enough, in fact, to know they have a fallback plan, should they ever get in trouble. Blame is huge in our country right now. If someone else has a hand in our actions, they cease to become our actions. I'm not saying that the Columbine bullies deserved to die. Violence is horrible in any form. But let us not paint them as complete and innocent victims in the tragedy.
(It should be added, however, that the bullies in Lafayette, IN to tend do knock up their girl friends and destroy their lives before their first semester of college is over.) -Wringing of hands and devilish laughter ensue...
"Goodness, how did you people live long enough to invent tools?" -Hobbes (the tiger, not the philosopher)
Often times, as I'm sure readers of Slashdot know, it's the kids who are actually doing their school work and learning who are targeted. Why the hell are the kids that aren't interested in being there allowed to co-exist in the same environment as those who are?
One potential solution to consider is just to privatize schools as a whole. If parents have to pay for their children's education (what a wacky idea...) - perhaps they'll take a more proactive role in making sure their children are getting the most out of their education - and in turn that the parents themselves are getting the most out of their dollar.
A school that doesn't have to keep misbehaved kids as students (due to compulsory education laws) wouldn't think twice about expelling someone who was disrupting the education of the others. The parents wouldn't be willing to pay for an education that was continually interrupted by those who aren't interested in learning... And the parents of those who were misbehaved would have two choices - either straighten their kids out, or find someone to help them - a military school, perhaps?
I grew up in a town with a single private and a single public school. I had friends in both, and I must say that I really don't recall ever hearing about misbehaved kids in the private school. Coincidence? Maybe - I'd be interested in hearing from people who are the product of private schools who were bullied or who witnessed bullying...
Anyway - getting back to privatizing the American school system... This is may be an unrealistic goal to aim for, as this would mean that the politicians would no longer have control over what American children are being taught. They could potentially view this as a threat to their positions. As soon as the first generation of privately educated children mature to voting age... well you get the picture... It's hard to imagine a private school graduate who can't understand a simple butterfly ballot...
But - what do I know? After all, I graduated from a public school with a bunch of students who couldn't read, much less understand that competition in ANY industry (including education) would lead to a higher quality product overall...
-bs
That that is is not that that is not. That that is not is not that that is.
"I was going to kill myself, but, hell, look at all these kids killing everyone instead. I could do that!"
I blame the media for over exposing these killings and making kids think about it.
If it was kept quiet the frist time, there might have not been a second. (so soon) ender-iii
ender-iii
Hey! I'll take one of these defensive only guns. I can give one to everyone I know too. They sound really great!
IRL, guns aren't only good at defense, they are better at offense. And they are really efficient at suicide and aren't half bad at shooting little kids in the hands of... little kids. And they are fantastic in an argument. Something along the lines of 'I didn't mean to shoot her, but the gun went off and...'.
The statistics show that these are what they are mostly used for in America. Not what people get them for normally, but what they get used for when somebody ends up dead.
It's like seatbelts. A lot of people are alive because of seatbelts. Is it right that people are forced by law to wear seatbelts? Not exactly, but its very convenient. Are more people alive that have seatbelts than would have been if they hadn't. Of course. Should you wear seatbelts? Almost certainly.
Its just like guns. The evidence shows that people on average, in America, and elsewhere cannot be trusted with guns. There's plenty of people that CAN be trusted with guns. But there's no way practical way to tell the two sorts of people apart.
Kids get hold of guns much more easily if an adult they know has one. They steal the key, the adult leaves it unlocked whatever. Kids have always, and always will, failed to understand that dead people don't get up again ever. And where they do understand they tend to use that information in tragic ways.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"Growing up in a rural community, almost every boy in my school carried a knife. We all knew knives were sharp tools, not weapons, and used them accordingly, by playing mumbly-peg (spelling??) with them. To this day, I always carry a short, sharp pocketknife with me that I can open with one hand. You never know when a bale of hay will attack you and you only have one free hand.
But I don't recall every having someone being stabbed by someone else.
Today, a cub scout who has just gone through a knife safety course and proudly takes a 2" pocketknife to school is suspended, which further confuses and ostracizes him.
Go figure....
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Kids taunt and tease for several reasons. One is to pull others towards the center of the groups behavior. A bit of this toughens up kids and prepares them for life. What is a mystery is when we have a kid who is being taunted because of unusual behavior and the kid does not moderate the behavior but persists in the posture that is drawing the negative attention. If being "Goth" is unpopular at a school and one wants to be popular so badly that suicide is a consideration, I would assume that the logic would be not to be "Goth". Maybe some of these kids are just so fragile that no environment will work well for them.
:eof
...that all geeks everywhere are united in their efforts to transform the word "than" into "then". Please bear this in mind from now on.
This whole thing about bullying being one of the causes of kids going nuts and killing others (or themselves) needs to be attached in context to the issue of volutary school prayer. That is, the school system forcing children into a situation where they have to opt out of a group activity because of their religion, making them more likely to be scorned by those in the "majority". Forcing school prayer or "moments of silence" like they do in the Pat Robertson-dominated Viriginia system, is a policy that leads to pain and death for those kids whose parents don't happen to be fundamentalist lunatics.
Oh, as for violent society - its not just the states.
Islamic egypt has changed the penalty for theft from the aputation of 4 fingers of the right hand, to complete aputation of both hands. (this was a week or two ago, I'm almost certain it was egypt, but I could be wrong)
And in pakistan, elementary school children carry knives to school (and husbands burn their wives alive)
Violent society - its everywhere, just in different places, even in places with strict policies on enforcement.
And, as for canada not having violence problems - bullshit. The difference is that the country is a lot more laid back than the states.
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
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Schools would be a lot more fun too. Though I can't imagine a coup, where the student council replaces the administration.
oh.. your statement.
99.9% of adults are responsible with guns
no fuckin' way. Somehow alcohol and firearms have a tendency of mixing quite well. The percentage is probably closer to 5% are responsible - maybe. Ever go hunting in the central united states?
In some ways, kids are more responsible because they are afraid of guns, well most anyway, but its kinda like passive eugenics - the squirel that doesn't run from the cars on the road doesn't grow up to have babies of its own.
BTW, guns are overrated for self defense, my CRKT Carson (nice knife) has worked plenty of times, carrying it is also a lot more legal too.
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
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You, personally have no vote, because about 45% of the people will vote democrat, about 45% republican.
3rd party canditates need not apply.
As for the winner . . . It doesn't even matter.
Who gets into office? Upper class pigs (sorry about the hostility here, but hey. . . ) who had their way funded by (gasp) big businesses, not by the PTA (sure, they kiss ass to get there. .
Which is why B-1 bombers are being made, and schools are getting shit.
Lets all stop being naive about this election thing.
Fuck, this country is getting to be like soviet russia - even worse.
USA
- has a friggin power crisis. (WTF! the fucking leader of the world has a fucking power crsis?)
- has people working - most fulltime, or even overtime - in dead end jobs that provide the basics - not much else. In oregon, $6.50/hr x 40 hrs doesn't leave you shit spending money after rent, food, insurance, etc. . . Oregon is near the top in minimum wage.
- Most people have NO retirement plan (unlike the communist system, where you got something for 20 years work, now you get laid off after 19 years)
- Rent, not buy is the name of the game. Forget trying to buy a house if you work a burger king.
- Education is a joke. Hands down. Joke. Even in the areas with large white populations, not the "ghettos".
Its not the teacher's fault (in about 60% of the cases), but the fact that schools get little/no money - i.e. 40 texbooks for 400 students - that is bullshit - god forbid the federal govt publishes something in mass quantity and sets some guidelines on education. For the most part, whether a student learns the material does not matter, bad teachers keep on "teaching".
60 "official languages" in some school districts doesn't help either.
Unlike the USSR which tried to educate it population to a certain standard, teachers that failed were, um... replaced.
Oh, speaking of good/bad teachers, you, as a teacher have to admit that there are quite a few completely useless ones who don't give half a shit about their students. Fortunately the good ones are the majority.
The really good ones teach in college/university, or stay with HS for some reason.
- All these fuckheads are happy about it, or at least mildly pissed after they down their Friday evening 3 bottles of malt liquor. Not like this will change their point of view, "its the [insert political party of choice here]'s fault."
Alcohol worked in the USSR too, we don't need gulags here.
I'm not trying to be too idealistic about either system, but some comparisons can be drawn... the system sucks, fixing it will not be easy.
Bah, 4:13, I'm going to sleep, so much for march break . . .
- Ooh! mass unemployment - this recession should be fun for all those who do not have jobs. When do the fuckin' breadlines start?
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
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My englis good is not
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Bullying continues, not because of Shrub and his AG, but because parents don't sue the pants off administrators for ignoring complaints and suspending kids who try to defend themselves. Maybe, if one or two of the people who were -known- problems found themselves in deep hot water for it, starting in elementary school, they wouldn't think it was permissible in high school.
In space, no one can hear you moo.
"Can you name ONE "fundamentalist Christian theocracy" on the planet at this time?" No but There have been in the past, Spain
-Compenguin
Sorry. Just having guns around doesn't mean that they suddenly sprout legs and kill people.
Back in the mid-eighties, I had the opportunity to go to Israel a couple of times. Because of the political situation, every adult (practically) is required to carry an automatic rifle. Well, Israel doesn't suffer from huge crime waves.
Automatic weapons were freely available to US citizens after WWI. Were was the crime wave (apart from prohibition-related crime) as a result?
The problems with firearms in the US have more to do with the lack of societal responsibility assumed by the common citizen than anything else. THIS is dangerous. THIS will collapse our republic.
Yea -- The media tends to point blame at the more "glamorous" targets (internet, video games, etc.) rather than the "boring" real issues of peer interaction, acceptance, and parental relationships.
I think this article was a little flat for the same reasons. It's just not as easy to rant about parent responsibility and bullys to a culture that wants to look through hollywood glasses.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I did, and at the time was very proud of it. Now I wonder if there wasn't something else I could have done. I am not a violent person by any means, and that was the last time I reacted violently to any situation.
I'm not blaming Americans here, but what does it say about the culture we live in when there needs to be a public service announcement telling you not to do physical harm to your child!
It seems the number of incidents is on the rise after the first widely publicized shooting, Columbine. I'm wondering if wide spread media coverage isn't a catalyst for others who feel they are in similar situations. The non-conformists are the targets of bullys, teased and harassed daily at school. I'm wondering if without the coverage of the media if these occurences wouldn't be less frequent. Certainly the media is not the sole cause of these incidents, I personally believe it is the bullys that are the cause, as opposed to movies and games.
I was bullied in my mid-teens by a couple of guys. I was not without friends, and they, as well as my parents helped me get through it. The friends at school reported it to the teachers, who in turn took action against my bullies. I probably never would have reported them, at least not then - though I'm not really sure why. In any case the end result was violence, though not guns, it was a fist fight, between me and one of the bullies, while a large group of my friends stood around to ensure the other didn't jump in.
But having a support system, whether it be parents or friends or whatever, will raise the your tolerance to where "normal" bullying doesn't cause you to snap.
-Dorsey
-Dorsey
If you can't beat them, exploit them. *Then* beat them... -Milk & Cheese
Now, this is a feature from Jon Katz that really makes sense. I have recently seen a program on CBC Newsworld about kids, that committed suicide as a consequence of years of bulling. So this is not a problem, that goes unnoticed, at least not here, in Canada.
One of the messages was that maybe extreme cases of bullying shouldn't be considered kids play anymore and should be prosecuted as what it really is: harassment and (occasionally) assault.
The whole issue is kind of scary for me, since my son has Asperger's Syndrome, thus being an oddball by definition. This makes him a perfect target for abuse. And surprise, I can watch, how it begins. How children, that don't know him start poking fun at him just because he has rather peculiar speech.
The funny part is, that children of his age (8) are quite tolerant. They see him tiresome, but not that different. These are the older ones, that notice oddities at instant and consider them as inferior.
Now, I do not think, the school system is at fault here. The school is actually rather helpful to me. This is simply the kind of animals, humans are. Herded. Plus the matter of peer pressure. At certain age it causes the most damage to the individuals indifferent to it.
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
Without being taught absolutes, everything is relative and I don't blame them for taking the easy road (kill or be killed). Our society is as much to blame because of all the moral relativism that is being taught and promoted. There are some things that are just Evil.
Yeah, suck it up is easy to say, and harder to do. But that doesn't make it wrong. That is what is wrong with this society, everybody wants the easy road, and expects to get it.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
The problem isn't teasing, bullying etc. The Problem is weak minded, low self esteem kids who are taught (via the media and others) that everything is "hate speech".
I was one of the kids in school that never really fit in. I played chess and bridge during recess and lunch. I was a dork, and got teased and bullied around by the best. Yeah it hurt my feelings, but I also realized early on that I actually intimidated the bullies, not by muscle but by brain.
Now I am a geek and all the bullies belong to me. Who is getting the last laugh now?
Anyway, the kids have got to get over it. I did. I am better for it too.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Which traditional Christian morals are these? The ones where you go out and slaughter the neighboring town because they don't believe in your God?
I just want to point out two books that should cover this topic well. On Killing -and- Stop Teaching our Kids to Kill both are by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, a soldier and a psychology instructor at West Point. He does NOT claim all video games are bad, but certain ones are.
In the last two shootings atleast (in San Diego), no one can give a reason why the kids have snapped. Everyone who knew them would swear that they are not the type to don a sniper shot gun and go after other students, and they just have no clue why they have snapped. Society for a large scale and media is responsible for this.
Kids here when growing up has a huge dilemma posed before them. They look upon stars in the sports arena and tend to be like them, without even realising whether they liked the sport in the first place or not. they are forced by their parents, peers, friends, girl friends (or girls in school) to look cool, to act like a 240 pound humantank with an iq of less than 10, which is the only way to get girls and earn respect.
And anyone who doesnt go along or tries to be different is slapped as a loner, and ultimately ends up in drugs, bad company as a form of escape. Parents should be the first to realize that they need to listen to their kids and stand up for them if they need it. School authorities could in turn reduce the impact of sports on the overall curriculum and start concentrating on other relevant areas, and encourage kids to take up other activities. Sports has recently become a stage where 1000 kids worship a dozen others around the field, whether they deserve it or not.
If United States want to bring around their young population and once again wanna make an impact as a nation at the forefront of technology, and not as nation which blindly follows every score, every tally of a 240 pound football star with an attitude, then its time to change.
Rapid Nirvana
Well, if I look beyond the "gun culture" propaganda you're spitting up, I'd notice that you didn't pay the slighttest bit of attention to what he just said. We did not have school shootings in the 1950's. We did not have ANY restrictions on gun sales, ownership, etc in the 1950's. The United States was not substantially less urban during the 1950's. If you take into account the three variables that you are whining about here:
1) Gun ownership
2) Gun laws
3) Gun violence
Now let's see. Less people, proportionately, own guns now than in the 1950's. There are hundreds more gun laws now than in the 1950's. And there is substantially more gun violence now than in the 1950's.
Less guns. More laws. More violence.
Well, the largely urban society of the 1950's didn't need guns to shoot bears, and somehow, without prohibiting gun ownership, people didn't kill each other in record numbers.P.S. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but in the United States if some enraged doctor beats me to death with his golf clubs, my family can't sue the police for not protecting me. The police do not have a responsibilty to ensure the safety of every individual citizen. They act AFTER THE FACT. They could arrest the doctor or take away his golf club until after he murdered me. Of course if I, being a lawabiding citizen, had been permitted to have a weapon to defend myself with, I might not be dead.
No, I was pointing out the strong correlation between more gun laws and a SHARP decrease in gun violence. Oh wait, it's the other way around. :-P
Why is the above a troll?
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Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
That was usually the way bullying ended (at least it did for me). Unfortunately, the severe crackdown on school violence puts the bullied at extreme risk if (s)he ever retaliates.
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Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
The United States is actually rather palatial as far as armed police go. Yes, in quite a few metropolitan areas, the police have shotguns in the cars; in some of these, the shotguns are in racks in the front of the car.
However, there is an important point to be made: the United States does not have a national police force, it does not have a police force that is paramilitary in nature and equipment. (SWAT/response teams are the exception, but they are a part of most major police departments, and not the department itself.)
Some European countries, actually, have even scarier things. France has a national, paramilitary police force, the Gendarme', which not only has automatic weapons, but also armored cars (virtually infantry fighting vehicles) and a paratrooper unit.
When I went to Spain for the World's Fair, parked outside the walls was a white armored car with a black turret, armed with a machine gun. Was it from the Army? No; emblazioned on it's side was POLIZEI. (I beleive that is the spelling of 'police' in Spanish. My apologies, it has been some time.)
Especially after Kent State, it will be very rare that you find military forces involved in the enforcement of domestic laws in the United States, and you will certainly not see armed and armored vehicles being normally used in law enforcement. (Again, there are rare exceptions, like the LAPD APC that gets toasted in Die Hard. =) That, however, and most metro police armored units, are not armed. Another exception was when National Guard units were deployed during the LA riots, but -- and this is unbelievable -- they weren't even issued ammunition at first!)
Corrections are, of course, welcome. =)
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
"Can't you see how this makes you all look like freaks to the rest of the world?!?
Go ahead, mod me down. I don't care. But this is one of the reasons the rest of the first worls looks upon America with bafflement and disbelief. "
If the rest of the world thinks America is so screwed up, then they can (1) take care of their own goddamn wars, (2) stop asking us for money, and (3) stay the fuck out of our business.
Humorless sig goes here.
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), more than 2,000 school-age children aged 19 or younger take their own lives each year. The rise in suicides by children ages 10 to 14 is especially alarming, say CDC officials.
If you are going to state something like this, back it up. What rise? What study? What method used to collect data, etc? Give us something to look at so we can draw our own conclusions.
Scott Plumlee
I was curious if kids are really more likely to commit murder now than in the past, so I did a little research. The results are pretty interesting.
From 1986 to 1993 there was a huge spike in murders of and by people aged 14 to 24. From 1993 to 1999, however, the number of teenage related murderers has steadilly dropped to the same level as it was in 1976. I have no numbers for 2000 or projections for 2001, but it certainly seems that the problem is not nearly as bad as it used to be.
Don't believe me? Check out the report by the U.S. Department of Justice here.
Granted, these are all murders, not just those in school buildings, but it makes you wonder why the media is just picking up on this now.
Dude in Canada you can not invoke ignorance in your defense. Being an ignorant in english or french doesn't change anything.
Nothing much has changed. 50-75 years ago, the few media giants had more important subjects to talk about, like WWII, Hiroschima, etc. and few people had access to all that news. Now everyone reads the news and the population grew tremendeously over the past 75 years. Of course, theorically their must to be way more people killing themselves nowadays.
Sounds like my story when I was about 11 years old. The fact is I wasn't violent until those bullies came. I had no choice but to defend myself, hell I even thought I would enjoy beating the hell out of them but I didn't enjoy it that much especially when they started crying. That's when I got scared of what I did and ran back to school.
I think bullies need help, most of them have serious problems with their parents.
I believe it's a more profound problem. Even rich kids aren't that stupid to think that their will be no consequences to their act.
The fact is, upper class kids probably have almost everything they want, from toys, to computers, etc. On the other hand, they often lack their parents affection and have no idea what the true values of life are. They feel that something is lacking but they have no idea what it is, this leads them to do some crazy stuff.
Silly boy.
Oh arse
Note that if I had a gun. Fat chance. I'm in England. It's probably a good thing, really. You have to ask yourself, how many school massacres are there in the UK compared to the US.
I'll be honest, I'm against private ownership of guns. I don't like guns. If I had access to a gun when younger, I may have been sufficiently incensed to kill someone. If I had access to a gun only a few years ago, things may have been different in another way entirely....
Just my thoughts,
Tom.
Oh arse
go to http://zedd.cjb.net his name is brad, email him and i'm sure he'd be happy to do something for you, either send it to you or sell it or something.
--endcycle--
congrats on getting clear on what life is all about at an early age- that's awesome.
:)
:)
i have to agree with the sentiment that once you KNOW that life can only get better from the low point of jr high and sr. high, then life actually tends to get better whether you like it or not.
i definitely think, in retrospect, that the crap i went thru made me a stronger and better person. "that which does not kill you only makes you angry" or something.
--endcycle--
I'm not inclined to believe many of these claims (i.e. Yes, I do believe that it was possible to insult kids during the Great Depression). However, you do raise an interesting point.
;)
If students can't stand bullies, then bring criminal charges on them. If the level of harassment brought upon students does not qualify as criminal action, then learn to live with it. It's cruel and unfortunate, but (shockingly) that is how life works.
By itself, this is clearly silly. The average kid will be laughed at if he/she tries to go to the police. Do you think they'd waste a prosecutor on this case, or does the kid have to hire a lawyer (yeah right) and bring charges in civil court? Besides, where's the evidence of the crime?
However, the sheer ridiculousness of this suggestion illustrates an important point. What is a child to do if they're teased, kicked, have stuff stolen from them, or are generally "bullied"? Very little, I'd say. And it is exactly this feeling of a lack of power which can lead to extreme solutions. The kid wants to get away but they can't. They can go to the principal, but when was the last time you saw a bully get kicked out of school? They can go to their parents, but parents usually just go to the principal... and so on.
Unfortunately, the reality of bullying is that most people can't do anything about it. Lots of them don't even want to (what did the original poster say about "learn to live with it"?) And no, don't tell me that abuse is okay because "that's the way the world is". That's the mantra of the bully: "Learn to take it because you have no choice". Bullshit. Here's the real world: you fight back if you can. If someone commits a crime against you, then you try to get them arrested and convicted for it (obviously!). Just think about it this way: evolution would have gotten nowhere if every organism just said "oh well, I guess my species will go die off now" every time things got bad
Unfortunately, when all of the options for fighting back seem to disappear (the bully is too big, you don't have friends who will stand with you, and higher authorities won't help you) then, well, a few people resort to extreme measures. Thousands of years ago, bullies would have had big rocks dropped on their heads when they weren't looking. That's just the way the world is. Learn to live with it, or try to change it.
back in the day in middle school i was a very very angsty individual who hated everyone and everything. i was complete geek at the time, buried in my computer stuff. on top of that, being overweight was a burden. i'm not like huge obese, i've just got those love handles that the ladies crave so very very much. i went through sixth grade angry and raging, seventh cooling off a little, and eighth being a depressive mess... that summer i found smoking cigarettes and smoking pot and started loosening out. freshman year of highschool i had been smoking a lot of both and ended up getting really good grades, and raising my self esteem bar a little. unfortunately, things happen, mothers become tyrannical, and life changes. sophomore year i had quit smoking and my self esteem and grades went down due to the looming cloud of oppressive mother forcing me into a little hole that she wanted me to live in... junior year was better, senior year i ended up slowly beginning to find myself though. back into the groove of being a complete hippie with long hair and everything (http://br.crashed.net/~subbi/pics/ - you can find some there). that was also the year my mother who forced me into her christian world that was completely hypocritical kicked me out of the house because i didn't go to church. so i moved in with my dad who didn't care which way i went as long as i wasn't getting in any trouble and i slacked off for a year. senior year / that year between doing anything of value were two important years. i had to do a lot of introspection because living with my mom had severely screwed me up. constantly being yelled at, told what to believe, told how to act, told what to do, so exact and excruciatingly not me that i couldn't handle it anymore. throughout highschool i wore normal clothing, but always considered myself what the little black-wearing kiddies thought they were. they thought they were goth, i knew i was what the real definition of it is. i was constantly a depressive ugly mess, short tempered, always grouchy, people didn't want to be near me. ended up getting out of highschool and doing a lot of partying. eventually i found lsd and began taking copius amounts of it for a month when i found out how much i enjoyed it and how it made me a happy person. i was using the logic that if i can't change myself, i'll use something to change myself with. apparantly it worked. since that month where i really should have fried my brain, i came out a much more insightful and much happier person then ever before. i'm not promoting drug use, i'm just saying that that happened to be the path i took. kids will be kids, meaning that they'll ridicule, taunt, hurt, maim, destroy, and cause general chaos. i wanted to kill myself many many times but eventually realized that if i kill myself, anyone i'm remotely close to would be crushed. it's the most selfish act you can perform and it doesn't help you anyway. it's running from your problems and being a weak link. honestly, i'm gonna say that i'm a bastard and people who want to kill themselves who start threatening that they'll kill themselves who won't listen to you should go ahead and off themselves because it's one less idiot on this planet. nowadays i'm still a cigarette chugging potsmoking party hippie in a rock band, but that's only on the weekends and nights. i've found myself to be a very happy person, and i'm happy with who i am. i figure who cares what my body looks like as long as i feel healthy (it would be nice to have not inherited a lot of my dads genes in that aspect though) and i can do what i want to do. i'm not entirely sure that i agree with the "life gets better after highschool" statement. for me, i don't think it really has gotten much better. i'm happy with myself, but i hate my life. i'm in a corporate work environment doing braindead data entry work and attending a corporate bullshit tech school called High Tech Institute. I realized much too late that HTI is a load of bollocks and i'm wasting my money there. I'm living in phoenix, and being a native of washington state, Phoenix is a horrible horrible thing to have happeend to me. the people are for the majority rather rude, people drive like they're on crack (most of them are) and there's nothing decent to offer here. it's a bunch of daily grind and nothing entertaining. lots of pop culture, lots of spanish culture, lots of metal, and tons of ghetto everywhere. it's spread out, miserable, and completely displeasing. I never get any sleep since i work full time and i go to school five hours a night, so i'm constantly exhausted, living in a roach-infested shithole studio apartment, always broke and hungry, yet i somehow manage to make myself say "i don't give a damn how shitty this is, i'm just gonna go through with it" karma seems to be a fairly good thing to follow, and i believe that if you follow it that it'll turn out that you will get back what you've tossed out. it may not be right now or soon, but it'll be worth your while. i also tend to believe that life leads you where it wants you to go. things happen to you for a reson, good or bad, but they're there to teach you something about life. you do learn something new every day, you just have to realize that you've learned it. go watch as the cheerleaders become teen mothers and the football stars become drunken idiot rednecks with loser jobs married to those teen mothers. the geeks/nerds/brains are the ones that end up doing the worthwhile stuff anymore. so drop those knives, put down those nooses, stop blowing away your classmates and listen up: life ain't so shitty and in the long run, all that stupid ridicule is complete bullshit. you already know that you're smarter and better than they are so why lower yourself below their level by killing yourself or someone else? let them ridicule you and prove their stupidity, someday you're going to be richer than any of those bastards will ever be! um, yes. long rant, sorry. :D
[)(]subliminal labs[)(]
I don't agree with #2, i think britney spears is the cause of all violence.
Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est.
"A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands"
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
this quote, You have heard the old saying 'guns don't kill people, people kill people?'
Well, some time around two thousand years ago, Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" wrote:
"Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est"
("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands")
There are studies that differentiate between gang-related assaults and all others. In addition, the POINT of doing your own research is so that you yourself can decide which homocides are worth considering bad. If you don't want to call "gang related" killings in the same category as all other school violence, you have that perogative when you do your own statistical analysis of the data. And yes, the kind of sensationalism the media engages in is contagious.
"Citing CDC stats" is only useless if you're not sure where the subject set is coming from. The CDC does not issue statistics. It issues the results of surveys and other research it's done. This is a huge ascii file that you can make statistics out of. And make them useful and relevant. Being informed is an important prerequisite for criticizing sources.
Do something about world hunger. Click here
I've been working since the age of fourteen and was given $1600 for my first car by my Dad after which point I was on my own. I was certainly more fortunate than some, but far from spoiled in my own opinion. My parents were not overly suffocating but also weren't afraid to dummy me up quickly and severely if I did anything truly stupid, which I generally didn't largely due to my own ethics. What it boils down to is that I was given essentially free reign because I never did anything serious enough (drinking and driving, etc) to lose their respect. If I was going to a party, my car stayed at home -- they knew it and through gritted teeth allowed me to largely make my own decisions as a result of my demonstrations of responsibility. I'm 25, a homeowner and a reasonably successful nerd with no illegitimate kids or criminal record... I think I've backed up their trust. I wish more parents had the same philosophy as mine.
It seems pretty typical that someone should assume that I am a spoiled child because I look back upon my teen years with fondness, but it really isn't the case.
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Slashdot: News For Zealots. Stuff That's Hypocritical.
Actually, the copious sex I was referring to was all contained in two long-term relationships -- I'm no big fan of the "town bikes" you refer to either. I wasn't a "jock", a bully or especially attractive, just apparently charasmatic enough to be worthwhile.
It's a shame about your tale of woe with the popular kid, however.
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Slashdot: News For Zealots. Stuff That's Hypocritical.
Oh, and you probably shouldn't assume that you're better than me because you valiantly sacrificed your social life in highschool in order to prepare for college. I'm in charge of some of you guys at the office.
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Slashdot: News For Zealots. Stuff That's Hypocritical.
Since then, it's been nothing but working some shit underpaid job or racking up thousands in debt via university courses so I can stagger home, pay my bills and watch the government suck the rest out of my pocket. Women in their mid-20s are even more fucked than teenagers and tend to have biological clocks ticking louder than Big Freaking Ben, leading, not surprisingly, to brutal sexual politics. Just to top it all off, I feel like absolute shit if I get less than six hours of sleep every night. I've got an $80,000 mortgage, a $23,000 car loan and I need back surgery. There's no such thing as true fun or freedom once we join the "real world" and I can't understand why so many people look back scornfully on the highschool years.
I would go back in a heartbeat.
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Slashdot: News For Zealots. Stuff That's Hypocritical.
I'm a new father. I don't want my child to EVER go to public school. I went to public school, and have been picked on, etc, but we all have. I got over it, I continued to do my work and become a good scholar, and move on to do other things in my life. The reason I did so was because my parents taught me to do so. Because I learned from those who came before me. I did not repeat history. With no mentors or even worse, mentors who teach kids the wrong way to be, hostility, anger, intolerance, lack of understanding or willingness to learn new things and look at different points of views, even if they may be inflamatory to the third party, children, our future, will continue to repeat history. They will not evolve into higher more intelligent beings. If we want the best for our kids, we need not to shield them and let government into our homes, but to govern our homes and families ourselves. If we want to have a truly democratic society, then we must start by teaching our kids these simple things. In fact, they are simple. No one thinks twice when they buy a lottery ticket or gives donations to 'Good Will'. These are democratic decisions that we made on our own. We were shown some facts by a consensus, and we decided. Why did we make these decisions, usually because we figure if other people are doing it and it can yield good things, then we should do it too. (probably not the best example) These problems we have today, with people needing instant gratification and 'satisfaction' comes from breeding this into our soceity. Video games contribute to this no more than going to church. I love video games, violent or not. They are an escape from reality and provide a much needed stress relief. I feel no wanting of instant gratification over things than if I got in an accident on the street. We must learn patience, tolerance, and understanding. It is hard to teach people this very thing when a goverment who breeds intolerance and impatience is attempting to preech these very things. Moderation is the key, and not moderation of what other people say or do, but taking things in moderation. I dont' believe in bible, but I do believe all things in moderation will keep us healthy. Both mentally, morally, and physically. We need to not allow the government into our homes and let them 'moderate' us. We, the citizens of the United States of America deserve to be allowed to raise our children in a manner which will produce a person who is suitable to living, working, and being in a society which will tolerate differences. As much as people in the U.S. Government say they are all about tolerance, etc. I have yet to see this be a truth. No tolerance has been paid to ANY person, who believes differently than the government on governmental issues. Only moral issues, and even that seems to be in danger. Heed this as not only a warning, but as an alarm that we need to send the message to our Govt, and say 'Leave our children alone, Leave us alone, and we will raise them properly. And those who do not raise their childre properly, will have them taken away, or they will be put away.' Ben Franklin said it best when he referred to a citizens rights ending at the tip of his fingers.
--SuperBug
Next, anti-bullying laws. If one kid taunts another, it's jail-time. Because bullying is dead-serious. Slashdotters are against the video-game and media witch-hunt. So they advocate a bullying-witch-hunt. As they say, apply cluestick.
If it is people, not guns, that kill people, the solution is obvious. Since gun control won't help, let's try people control.
....shootings get headlines, bullies don't. If you don't believe me read about it here.
e w& record=189
http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=vi
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
there is a 13 yr old in Florida right now that just got handed a life sentence...what he did was wrong, but a 13 yr old doesn't belong in an adult prison, no matter what he did.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Personally, I do think that bullying causes a large amount of the problems in these kids lives. I'll also play the race card for a minute, becuase thats another trend I've seen here When I was young, even though I went to a private christian school, I was still teased and ridiculed. I was a tall, bony, skinny sickly child who was always out of school with asthma attacks. To make matters worse, the tall girl in school was the one to bully me, and made my life hell for 6 long, agonizing years. Then came hell, or as I like to call it, middle school. I was put in public school for the first time, on the "better" (read: white) side of town, where the teachers and admisitrators were racist and put me in lower classes. Things only got worse there, because I was still the skinny little black kid, who was forever getting sick, and I had a 2 hour (thats 1 way) bus ride. I frequently got jumped, until one day I decided to get back at them. I went over my friends house, he was a gun collector, and "borrowed" his .45 look-alike bb-pistol. I hid it in my backpack, and rode up to school on the bus. When they decided to jump me that day, I reached in my book bag with my hand on the gun and unzipped it with the other hand. They all jumped back and screamed "He's got a gun!". However, I was in the back and the bus driver didn't hear it. We got to school and the day passed without incident, but after a week, they were back to their old tricks. People would put gum in my hair, spit on me, go through my things, hide my medicine, one even pulled an x-acto knife on me in art class. However, I did get my revenge.
It was the last day of school. We had that crap school olympics event, and I failed the particular event I had to do, and someone stuffed my drink full of styrofome and spit back on the bleachers. That was about all I could stand! I had filled a bottle of gatoraide full of urine the previous week, so I could exact my revenge. When I stepped off the bus, I took the bottle, and ran as fast as I could splashing it at everyone I could. I hit this one high school senior in the eye whose favorite hobby was to torment me; that day, life was good.
When I got to high school, things gradually got better. I just shrugged off what people said about me, and I had hit a growth spurt so I was kind of big and most people didn't bother me. By 10th grade, I discovered a hole in fortres and started charging people to have emulators installed under their network space. By then, my nerdiness helped my popularity quotient to do a 180! I even had a few girls ask me out :) I still see people from highschool now, and they always ask me what I'm doing. Well, I'm a first year college student at Ga Tech for all those who wanna know.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
your wrong. Owning a gun is one of our RIGHTS, read - second amendment. if you get rid one that right whats to stop anyone from getting rid of other rights, like freedom of speech ??
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
I agree, its NOT a problem with guns. Its a problem with schools and the society that builds around them. The problem with schools is the only adults in them are the teachers/security guards who the children despise. How are our kids to grow and form into adults when they have little guidance, and form most of their opinions in groups of their peers who are no more learned in the ways of the world then they are. No wonder kids want to rebel so much when they get to college. They have had vitually no guidance and have spent the last 12 years in groups of other kids, where parents have no control over what their children hear. In past generations before the modern school system kids spend as much time working with parents and adults, and formed their ideas and guidlines similar to their peers, who were not just kids. Combine this seperation of kids from adults, with a blood thirsty media trying to get all their money through targeted advertising, and you are going to have a mess. In this light the system is flawed, despite the fact it works so well for many. Mordy
Teamwork is a bunch of people doing what I tell them.
And that's a load of crap. Take a look at the percentage of people who commit suicide. Now take a look at the number of people who commit murder. Finally, take a look at the number of people who commit murder and commit suicide.
There's nothing to back up your baseless assumption.
Ranessin
However, Katz starts out talking about kids turning other kids into killers. Instead of giving any substantiation to that claim, he goes on to give examples of kids committing suicide. The only common thread between kids killing other kids, and kids committing suicide, is the taunting and teasing. That's hardly a strong connection.
Ranessin
ALL of the shooters in the recent school "massacres" complained of being harassed at school. ALL teen suicides complain of ostracism and harassment at school. How is it that you do not see that there must be a common denominator here?
Of course there's a common denominator. I never said there wasn't. However, being ostracized and harassed does not turn one into a killer. Nor does it turn one suicidal. Witness the thousands, millions even, of kids who were/are osctracised and harassed but didn't turn into killers or kill themselves? How is it that you don't see something else at work? Yes, perhaps the harassment played a role in sparking the incident, but it wasn't the harassment that allowed them to abandon right and wrong, give into their urges, and plan the horredous acts they committed.
Ranessin
You're not listening... I'm not saying that they aren't related. I'm saying that you're narrow line isn't so narrow. People who commit suicide do not, necessarily, stop knowing right from wrong. Besides, if you look at the figures (which you obviously haven't), you'll see that only a very miniscule percentage of people who commit suicide decide to take others out with them. Just because you would take out your tormentors doesn't mean others would.
Ranessin
But if they're suicidal because of constant humiliation, physical violence, taunting, and general bullying, I think it's fairly likely for them to try to hurt the attacker. If the attacker is making them feel they're ready to die, they'll probably be ready to kill.
Again, baseless assumptions. Study the figures and you'll see that's not true.
I was bullied in HS. I was depressed in HS. Hell, I was physically attacked in HS. Thousands of others were as well. We didn't turn into homicidal killers.
Ranessin
Despite the fact that you're comparing apples to oranges... I even admit that the harassment played a role.
However, it's obviously not the primary cause or millions of kids would be doing it.
Ranessin
It is completely relevent. And you have yet to show any proof that they are symptoms of the same problem, despite the overwhelming statistics showing that they aren't.
Ranessin
Don't you think there might be psychological problem that's a bigger cause? If they think the proper way of handling the situation is to open fire on people, I'd certainly argue that there's something not quite right with that person mentally.
Ranessin
I think I'll accept the words and actions of the people involved.
If you want to accept the words of murderers, feel free. I'm not so naive to blindly accept the words of homicidal maniacs who are probably doing things for reasons even they don't understand.
Ranessin
what do you say is the likely cause when someone seeks, in their own word, vengance against the bullies... tv perhaps? Maybe NAFTA? Or, perhaps, bullies and harassment?
Or perhaps something else entirely. Do you know even one thing about psychology?
Bullies know the effects they can have, they see the news too. If they bully someone, they deserve everything they get. My only regret is that kids wait so long to retaliate that they end up taking out bystanders. A little bully killing isn't necessarily a bad thing; the bully intends to hurt you as much as possible...
Great, an eye for an eye. So much for being civilized. Killing is always a bad thing and I feel bad for you that you're too ignorant to realize that.
Ranessin
With every post you demonstrate your ignorance of the human mind. We are constantly doing things for reasons we fail to understand, and the killers are no different in that regard. The average person doesn't turn into a homicidal maniac due to years of harassment. If they did, nearly every teenaged kid would turn into a killer. Psychologically there is something wrong with these kids. Trying to dismiss it by saying that these kids did what they did because they were harassed is simply trying to mask the symptoms and not find a cure for this illness.
Ranessin
This is really a case where Mr. Katz is preaching to the converted (again).
I take serious disagreement with this statement. I'd like to think that the Slashdot community isn't naive enough to buy this tripe Katz crap.
First he claims that kids are turning other kids into killers. What's his proof? Stats showing suicide rates. What's up with that? Being suicidal does not make one a homicidal maniac!
Yeah, yeah. We all had rough teenage years. We all got picked on for being geeks, nerds, dorks, band fags, etc. We didn't all turn into killers, now did we? There's something else going on here. Something far beyond Katz' simple understanding; Far beyond what can be discovered explained in an 11 paragraph essay (if you can call it that).
Ranessin
If every child in this situation that the media has covered has complained, often endlessly, about bullying and harassment, it doesn't take a genius to see the strong connection. So why can't you see it?
The same argument could be made about video games, though. If they all played video games, according to your logic, that must be the cause. Sorry, but I can't continue to debate with someone whose logic is so flawed.
Ranessin
These 'boys' (that's what they are, mostly) aren't getting any sex. 15-17 year olds that look around and see everyone having sex, and they themselves are extremely sexually frustrated. So much so that they can't carry on a polite conversation with the opposite sex. They probably don't even have any female friends.
I don't think that stopping the bullying is gonna help, there needs to be another step the 'cool' girls at school need to pay more attention to these guys. Never mind the nerds that have much more potential(golddiggers!), these guys need more help and affection. Forget the jocks! focus on those that look like they might be trouble...
To all the high school sluts in the world.. be heroes.. save some lives.. do what you need to do.
;-)
I must first appologise for the heartlessness and jaded cynicism which is to follow...
Now that that is out of the way... I must say I was thrilled when I heard about Columbine, and the two smaller school shootings before. I was proud and happy that people finally snapped and did what I could only wish to do throughout my high school days.
Then of course I was severely disappointed and dismayed by the ensuing "rat on the freaks" phone lines and further removal of student's rights. It only took two years for the 'enlightened' of slahsdot to realise it, which you would assume to be the first place to get it, considering this is the bastion of nerds everywhere.
Alas, the shootings will not change much... People are too stupid to change. Children will not think of the consiquences of their bullying. Parents will not think of the consiquences of making fun of others in front of their children. The media will not think of the consiquences of their biased sensationalism.
And the shootings and suicides will continue, because we are human and an ideal place where nobody is persecuted will not happen in our time.
Highschool was the worst. No sex, no fun, just boring school work. College was a little better. Some sex, some fun, and the school work was more interesting.
I definitely hit my strides in my 30's though. More sex than I can handle, great fun, lots of friends, wonderful parties, and the money to be able to afford things and to travel.
Highschool was the worst part of my life, by far. And I can TOTALLY relate with the kids that want to shoot up their schools.
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Exactly. The 'us v.s. THEM' mind-set of religion is the problem, not the cure. People feel empowered by religion and the bible to beat up on jews and gays, or anyone perceived to be either... God is the justification for beating up and tormenting anyone perceived as 'not Christian enough' (or as bad, not the RIGHT KIND of Christian).
There's a reason we try to separate church and state. Keep religion out of it. Teach ethics. Teach the golden rule. Teach the law. But my gawd, do NOT teach religion in schools! It'll only make the problem WORSE.
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
This sort of oppressive homophobia negatively affects gay and straight kids alike. And the Teachers and Administration stand by and do nothing while it's going on. I remember very explicitly that if a kid shoved another kid in view of a teacher, the teacher would repremand them -- UNLESS the shove was accompanied with calling the kid a 'fag'. Then the teacher seemed to turn a blind eye.
And they wonder why kids go postal. The Teachers and Administrators need to be held accountable for not only ignoring this kind of abuse and rampant homophobia, but tacidly (and sometimes actively) ENCOURAGING it.
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
It seems like to me that we are reaping the fruits of the culture shift in values. Right and wrong are now relative. "What is right for me may not be right for you" is what the majority of people believe today. There is no longer any universal truths. The result of this is life is no longer valued like it use to be. You see this in other areas of the Western culture. Teenagers are just more likely to express these new values (or lack of values) in more extreme ways.
I was going to reply via e-mail but yours isn't listed.
Maybe growing up as the son of a Homicide cop has made me paranoid, but no one lives in safety anymore. I have been mugged in broad daylight less than a block from a police station. My car has been hit by stray fire one evening. I've had my car and apartment broken into on numerous occasions.
Granted that my weapon of choice is currently a baseball bat, I still see no reason as to why I should give up my gun because it makes you nervous.
I can take you places in Chicago (where guns are illegal) where you would be lucky to last 10 minutes without getting mugged or shot. Don't the honest people have the right to defend themselves?
I'll alter my challenge:
You with a cell phone, me with a nerf gun. Ten paces and turn. Can you place a call and give your address before I nerf you?
You can give me all the statistics you want. You DO live here it COULD happen but choose to think otherwise.
Viv
-----------
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
Quick question:
Pick *ANY* city in the world...
Someone kicks in your front door and is screaming his intention to kill you. They are armed with a knife and are coming in. You are sitting at your desk with a phone and a gun. Which do you choose to save your (Canadian) bacon?
Think fast. The person will find you or a family member in the next 60 seconds.
Now do it over with the choices on your desk being a phone and a bowl of warm oatmeal.
I guess I'd rather be a gun-toting freak over a red stain and sad story. What would you be?
Viv
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Viv
Gmail invites for ip
Violence has always played a role in the US. Even the Lone Ranger had a gun, and so did Davey Crokett, but all those kids in the 50's didn't run around themeselves or each other. The real problem is lack of parenting. Parents need to take a more proactive role in the raising oftheir children. Many, any parents today seem to be more worried about being their kid's friend rather than a father,or a role model. We need to stop putting them in front of the TV or in front of the computer and hoping that it will keep them entertained. Our kids do not need tobe entertained, they need to be tought right from wrong, and we need to pay enough attention to them to see when they need someone to turn to. Parents need to stop being lazy.
just my 2 cents
I also love and hate high school. Don't get me wrong, my high school life is almost beyond eaisy. I'm a sophmore and already one of the heaviest hitters in the drama department (due mostly to a huge amoute of graduations of good actors.) I'm popular enough, people like me. But thats not my problem, my problem is with how fucking inhumane other kids are. I was walking with a friend of mine a few weeks ago, he was wearing a strait jacket, he thinks it is the coolest thing in the world, and SEVERAL, not just one, or even two groups of kid threw ROCKS at him. Fucking rocks. In the middle of lunch. They threw rocks and screamed FAG. I hate that word. Not because it's homophobic, but because it is always an negative snap judgement that kids throw out. Diffrent shirt? Destroy. Thats why kids are fucked up. Actauly, just after the 2nd San Diego shooting (I live about ten miles from Santana) my drama class had a class disscusion about it, and a fellow student and I got into a very heated debate over the worf FAG (by the way, the guy I was arguing with is gay.) He thinks it is impossible for people to change out of what they've been cast into (cast mold not arm.) He says he can't even get rid of the word. We debated, it was great. Five people left the room, one crying over the intesity. I loved it. But my point to the whole class was that, even tho they claim that the shootings can't stop, they (not I, I have, throu three years of concious effort, weeded out all but the most seldom cruelty from my speaking) need to learn to stop the random acts of cruelty. I made a point that day, kids came up to me telling me they'd try. Cus thats what makes most of thease shootings, cruelty. Ignornce and insults, fuck them. Anyone can handle them. It's constant cruelty that breaks people. And while kids think it's all right to call everyone they meet FAG, the shootings will continue. I guess what my point is kindof lost here, I'm preaching to the chior, but I like telling storys.
"Cornflakes are not the innocent critters they seem"- Sterling Morrison
People like you piss me off. People who say, suck it up, you can take the bullying. True, I can (could rather, I am no longer bullied.) But other kids in schools CANT. Every, every human being has a breaking point. And that point is very eaisly reached when EVERYONE, yes sometimes everyone in high school really is against you. Belive me, I'm there, is CRUEL to you. A very amazing movie I recomend to any cruel person to see is Swimming With Sharks. It's a Kevin Spacey. It's about how Kevin Spacey's charachter drives his assistant, the actors name escapes me, to torture and almost kill him. By being cruel. Every day. Now imagine everyone doing that to you. All the time. Now the best part of it is that at the end Kevin Spacey talks the torturer out of it by showing him he's wrong. The kids at school shooting at other students are wrong in what they're doing, but they have snapped. When you snap, I at least, don't hold you responsible for what you do. Now, back to my point, there is only one way, that I can think of, to end all this death. The kids. They need to become aware that other people are alive. And some are, hell, I am. I haven't been randomly cruel to any kid not like me at school since I, as I like to call it, awakened mentaly in 9th grade. I KNOW it's possible for kids to change, I have. I've made others change thier outlook on curelty. SO what can we do? Start explaining to people about cruelty. Who? YOU! Don't expect anyone to do it for you, I'm not. I'm expecting you to do it with me.
"Cornflakes are not the innocent critters they seem"- Sterling Morrison
Yes it does. Your point is taken, A good family situation can prevent "killer kids" , but the bullying still causes it.
"Cornflakes are not the innocent critters they seem"- Sterling Morrison
-Byran
Suicide is the epitome of selfishness.
Of course it is because of bullying that some teenagers crack (by shooting or otherwise). I can't believe that it is not being considered in the United States Government! Here in Denmark our government is very well aware of the seriousness of bullying in schools. And in Sweden (our neighbouring country - in case some didn't know :-)) a school can get fines for not dealing with bullying in time!
Ha! Games damaging children... Ok, fine, then I guess my generation (I'm 27) should be running around listening to monotonous music while eating small yellow pills.
"Running around eating yellow pills while listening to monotonous music is fun..."
Right. And having lived in LA, i can tell you - nothing makes citizens' owning gun more necessary than that the cops do. By and large, i wouldn't say that "gun culture kills people". Insiders to "gun culture" are in all likelihood more educated in safety and personal responsibility than outsiders; i'll draw a comparison here to a "psychedelic culture". And as with psychedelics, i'm thinking problems primarily arise when outsiders to the cultures (children at times) acquire the toys of the trade. Just my thoughts - but i don't think, just because you yourself are uncomfortable with weapons, you should necessarily leap to the conclusion that NO ONE can be trusted with them. I feel sarcastic comments coming on, so i'll just close here.
Is it that the majority are happening in suburban areas? Or that society has become so numb to crime in inner cities that it is no longer news when it does happen? History is written by the winners.
Do not touch -Willie
When I am teaching <insert subject here>, I have to make them learn by example. If only because lectures are duller than a day old dead dog.
Do not touch -Willie
No, bullying always existed.
On the other hand there was no need to keep police at schools, install metal detectors and other security measures which are so common these days.
Something have changed since then.
Your morals are precisely of somebody with "no religion".
Posting as a Anonymous and insulting other people.
You prove my point, dude.
Oh really, so explain this non-Christian-boy, how come there was no such violence 50 years ago ?
Are you suggesting that pressure and related stress did not exist back then ?
You are missing the point. Without religion and concept of being ostracized for your sins there is no need for morality.
After all, if God does not exist then if nobody can see me or know what I am doing, I am free to do anything.
"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Exactly.
The Constitution is not a crutch - it is the law. The second amendment gives a statement - a prohibition on the government (this is what the constitution is for) - and a reason for making the statement. There are many ways to read it, unfortunately, and some people (Americans that I know) think that by "militia" any military is meant - since we have a military in the US, our free state is defended, and we no longer need the second amendment. Or perhaps we can just take guns away from people in bald defiance of this amendment. QED.
However, regardless of what reason is stated, the statement of law is that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - and I would argue that the defense of a free state implies defense of "free" as much as defense of "state" and that a state can only be free when citizens have means to protect themselves against their government - both legally (with votes and courts) and physically (with guns). As another poster implied, this is one of the first thing the Nazis did - disarmed their citizens.
A pilot, in those days, was the only unfettered and entirely independent human being that lived in the earth.-Mark Twain
I happened to live next door to the neighborhood bully. I was his first target every day. One day, as he was harassing me, I pulled a toy cap pistol from my pocket. He laughed and said 'You're gonna shot me?" I answered "No". Instead, I pistol whipped him. I brought the butt of the toy down on top of his head once, as hard as I could. This was the early 60's, toys were made of metal. I cut him up quite badly. He went crying home to his mommy with blood flowing down his face. He confronted me later that day and informed me that his dad told him that he was never supposed to "lose a fight." I told him that he just had and went in the house. He left me alone until the following winter when he and his thug friend pushed me into a snowbank at the local skating rink. I had grown a bit since the last confrontation. I stood over him, shoved a finger in his face and said "I don't want to have to hurt you again." I turned my back on both of them and skated away. He's been nice to me to this day.
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
---
Is cheese turning your kids into killers?
A recent study by a group of food scientists showed that, out of ten thousand high school students, one was more likely to have violent thoughts after eating a slice of cheese. This proves what many people have been suggesting for years: that cheese causes violence in schools. Conventional wisdom says that the Internet is mostly to blame, with video games and TV playing a major role also. Of absolutely no importance are social problems at school or overly-conformist teachers. But this new study is already changing people's thoughts about youth violence. One team researcher, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect himself from "those cheese-eating goons", remarked that "None of that matters anymore. Cheese is the only important factor."
It has already been shown that, at sometime in their lives, the shooters at Columbine and Santee high schools have eaten cheese. This proves that there is a strong correlation between cheese and violent acts. Said one researcher, "The harmful effects of cheese can affect one's behavior for up to ten years after eating the cheese. Our two-week study has proven this conclusively."
Parent groups are already protesting the use of cheese in so many of the foods that we eat every day. One parent said, "The food industry has a responsibility to make sure that their products don't cause kids to become violent." Concerned parents have formed so-called "CRAPPY" (Cheese Restriction And Protection Programs For Our Youth) groups throughout the country. Vocal CRAPPY parent John Blatz gave us his opinion on the matter: "It's just terrible how much cheese is being used in the foods we eat every day. I for one am urging Congress to pass the C-chip bill." The C-chip is a small device attached to a refrigerator. It prevents anyone under eighteen years old from removing any cheese-based product from the refrigerator. Says Blatz, "If this bill passes, the C-chip would be required in all new refrigerators. Also, simple add-on kits will be made available for all current refrigerator models. This will make it easy for parents to protect their kids from the cheese menace."
Schools everywhere have removed cheese from their school lunch menus. Schools are also craking down on cheese users. One school administrator remarked, "We are trying to find out which students at our school have eaten cheese recently. Those students will recieve special psychiatric counseling to compensate for the effects of the cheese. We must not let any cheese users remain at our school!"
An executive for a large cheese company responded to threats of legal action: "Cheese does not cause violence by itself. Parents need to be more aware of their kids' feelings, and talk to their kids on a regular basis." He was then trampled by a mob of CRAPPY parents bearing signs such as "Cheese Kills!" and "We Demand Cheese Restrictions!". Future action by CRAPPY is already planned. Said Blatz, "If we can't get the C-chip put into every refrigerator in the USA, we will take each and every cheese manufacturer to court for endangering our children. We will stop at nothing to protect our kids!"
---
Yes, I wrote all of this. It is copyrighted under the GNU Satire Licence (if such a thing exists).
---
Yet 81 percent of Americans told the Gallup they blame the Internet for Columbine.
That doesn't seem to be true. Gallup publishes most of their social anaylsis polls on their website.
Not once does this seemed to be claimed in their polls. Even mainstream alarmist media knows that they have to follow up and be able to prove references. Once again, though, JonKatz decides that he's going to make some groundless, alarmist, speculatory social commentary, taking advantage of his own celebrity, and then tries to back it up with fake data.
From what I've read in the past few months, it seems the only reasonable writer for Slashdot is jamie. (Editors, like CmdrTaco, don't conut...). Maybe JonKatz should find some journalistic responsibility, or else hop over to a site/paper that's more openly tabloid-ish. Or maybe go on Oprah.
-Andrew
I thought I was defending the Earth from hostile take over from aliens...not asking them to visit on vacation and then hunt them down on tourist season....hmmm....
the wrong antidep can cause people to act out their murderous impulses instead of reining them in. people have sued makers of drugs like zoloft and prozac for 'causing' their relatives to launch over the deep end and kill members of their family, etc
testing is VERY important. this is brain chemistry we're talking about, and medicine still hasn't figured out all the implications of what we do to that little bundle of grey matter.
Being in my mid-40's. it's sometimes difficult to remember what my school daze were like.. I do, however, remember that there was no fear, violence, bullying, etc. Why? That's an easy question to answer.. We were all too damned stoned to be violent!! We now live in the D.A.R.E era.. and as a result, kids just aren't smoking enough pot. Without the *clouds* to shelter them from reality, today's kids are realizing what a screwed up world we really live in, hence the tendency to go a little crazy. So is the answer to this problem going to be mandatory weed for high school kids? maybe.. it would certainly mellow them out... and we don't really need to worry about a generation of "dumber" kids.. windows(tm) is already seeing to that for us. Then there's the issue of "mood altering" drugs.. you know.. those nasty little pills that are being pushed on our kids by every scumbag counselor that can't deal with kids problems the good old fashioned way (patience and understanding). Do you want your kids to be dependent on a Pfizer(tm) product to make them socially acceptable? Hell.. I'd rather see my kids smoke a joint. (Disclaimer- this post is meant to impart a bit of humor on an otherwise serious subject. Flaming me re: the content of this post will only cause me to laugh at you.)
chown -R us
Wow, I've been looking for a descriptive noun to describe Katz for weeks. I was gonna go with "cocktoast" but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Nice going!
-in a fast german car im amazed that i survived... an airbag saved my life!-
Some of the things drilled into you were safety issues like:
I read about kids who take their parents guns to school, and I wonder just how many of these parents keep the guns and ammo together, unlocked in a drawer, just waiting for a curious kid.
You wouldn't leave your root password to your office's server lying around on a piece of paper, you don't leave your guns and ammo lying around.
though I do recognize your writing style.
I bet you received so much harassment from the teenage boys inhabiting Slashdot (as most female Slashdotter's have mentioned to me, in private) that you no longer log in.
Ironic, too, that an article about geeks being bullied has the subtext of a woman being bullied on a geek website.
Keep writing, your viewpoint is appreciated.
conservative propaganda.
All those stories in the NRA magazines are made up.
All those statistics about crime dropping in concealed carry states like Florida are made up to.
Please, all you people aren't smart enough to own and use firearms are responsibly, leave them to the government, which knows best, jusrt like it knows best about PGP, DecSS and Apple G4s.
My extended family (about 60 strong) has owned guns, from handguns to Assault Rifles, for 80 years, with no gun related deaths or injuries, I guess statistically we're all gonna die tomorrow.
Sorry, but what planet are you from? When a kid starts crying, the first reaction of bullies is to simper at them and say "awww poor baby gonna go cry to mommy now?" or some sort.
-- MrMud
In addition I would like to bring up other points along these same lines. Bob Abooey, Jon Katz, and I have been conducting extensive studies that cover many of the social ill that plague our country. We have discovered the following truths:
Computers are involved in 100% of all computer hacking cases. Elimination of computers would reduce these cases to 0.
Fat people are major contributors to the number of deaths in the US that occur from obesity. Mass killings of fat people would drastically reduce the number of deaths from obesity.
Dogs are involved in every single known dog bite case in the United States. To bring this problem under control we suggest the elimination of all dogs.
Indeed, these are pressing issues facing us all. For further information on Handgun Control please visit HCI's web site. Thank you.
Cunning linguists
Typical popular american myopia. In a country with 280 million people you would think that there would be enough smart people to exert some sort of political influence - instead we have George W as a president. For decades black kids have been killing each other in the inner-city public schools, without too much notice. Now, after a "rash" of school shootings involving white children in all-white suburban schools is the issue reaching the front pages. The reason now isn't because the kids are violent, out of control, or lacking in morals, but because THEY WERE BULLIED and TEASED. boo-fucking hoo. Everyone gets bullied. I was the star athlete in high school and thus "popular" but that didn't spare me from getting bullied. Being popular or cool never spared anyone from being bullied. For those that don't have the mental capacity to deal with that, it may be unfortunate but it does absolutely ZERO to absolve your guilt if you decide to take a gun to your classmates.
M period. Fresh, comma
I think it's also worthwhile to point out that this isn't just a problem with kids. There are plenty of adult bullies. And plenty of adults that "go postal" as a result. Where do you think the phrase came from? The best way to teach kids compassion is to demonstrate it in our own behaviour.
--brian
I tried to stay out of this, but oh, well... This is not the wild west. This is a modern world where I have been shot once and mugged twice. I don't live in a very dangerous place. I live in the captial city of Ca! However, I dared to ride my bike through the city, headed for home. I was mugged (unsucessfully), and only got away because some fat dude with a baseball bat is not as fast as a road bike. If he had a gun, I'd have been shot again.
Of course, it would be illegal to discharge a firearm in the city, right?
I was shot once as a child for being in the wrong area of San Diego, during a drive-by shooting. When the cops and the ambulance arrived 45 minutes after the shooting, my parents had to file a report, and I was accused of being involved. I was 7 years old, yet I might have had something to do with it?
Despite all of this, I do not have a concealed weapons permit. I have not intention of getting one, no desire to be armed, and no faith in the police departments that have failed to help me. I think that America has plenty of problems with gangs, and that people wearing guns publicly would have little affect on this. Banning guns would have no effect, because the criminals who own the guns didn't get them legally in the first place!
If the rest of the world is safer, and cleaner, and neater, and what-have-you, that's great. I however, have to live in a world where everytime I go through town near dusk, after dark, or (like with my near bike mugging) in broad daylight, there is a chance I will be assaulted.
If your police force works, goody for you. Ours stinks.
-WSAn operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
---
pack
1337
My understanding was that the teen suicide rate in Japan is higher because of the pressure from the schools to succeed. Japanese students (that I've met, anyway) on the whole place MUCH more importance on academic acheivement than the average US student. In the US, failing a class sucks, but it's not that big a deal and it happens all the time. In Japan, failing a class is public humiliation, a life-shattering event.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
When Emperor Justin of Constantinople made weapons more available, do you think crime went up or down?
to bully someone. Until they fight back of course.
Here is a solution: the parents should be considered responsible for ANYTHING their kids do untill they turn 21. Kid goes crazy and shoots up his school, parents get tried for murder. Kid steals a six pack, parents get tried for theft. Kid gets pulled over for drunk driveing, parents lose their driver's liscense.
Crazy? Maybe. Not any worse than the laws we have though.
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
Ok, if that's your argument... The American colonies were mostly angry about taxation without representation, a situation which the British Empire, Canada, etc. have mostly come to term with.
--
--hongpong.com
Perhaps redundant, but hear hear! I have to add, though, that oftentimes people in working-class situations can't do all this stuff. They just don't have the time. They have to work.
--
--hongpong.com
That feels to me like a Social Darwinist argument to me. In human society for thousands of years, parents haven't been expected to put in 100% of the hours. It seems that oftentimes the "second family," as some sociologists call it, is really fundamentally broken. i don't think that people without the time shouldn't have kids, I think that people withou the WILL shouldn't have them.
--
--hongpong.com
i think that people can be horribly contradictory on their demands for people, especially those within the "working class." Say a poor 18-year-old gets pregnant. She can't get an abortion, easily, anyhow, because of protesters & societal pressure. She is near the welfare threshold. However, she is made out to be a lazy welfare mother, so she gets a job and manages to get her kid into community day care. Now she isn't pulling down society by taking welfare, but she is still bad because she's "trying to selfishly climb the corporate ladder." Hence, no matter what she does she is bad.
When people say that people shouldn't put their kids in daycare, they are speaking from a position of sheltered privelege, and need to be aware that maybe some people HAVE to work during the day or starve.
Don't get me started on Christian morals...
--
--hongpong.com
yes, but does disarming law abiding citizens also disarm the criminals? Your argument is flawed, look at Japan, where it is virtually impossible for a normal person to own a gun, yet criminals in Japan still have guns.....
1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
hmmm, seems to me that the kid at Santana High has a 6 shot revolver, and a puny .22 at that.....hmmm, sorry man, but you are off base totally.....
1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
Do you care so little about your life, and the lives of your loved ones that you render yourself incapable of defending them? You are willing to throw away your human rights for a false sense of security? What you are forgetting is that a gun is just a tool, and the true weapon is the human mind. The police can't act untill a crime has ben comitted, are you willing to take the risk that it is your family and your house that the criminal goes for first? I am proud to be a "freak" if I am able to prevent my wife from being raped, or defend my children's lives. I will not give up my right to self defence because my family has been involved in law enforcement for years, and I know truly how impotent the law enforcement is. And that they must remain that way in order to have a free society.
By the way, I wouldn't recommend giving out your street address to anybody around here now that everybody knows that you can't, or aren't willing, to defend yourself.....
"...We feel that any society that loses these warrior virtues is a poorer one and will soon be a society who's freedoms are lost. The male has a prime directive to protect and defend. Every man is responsible for defending every woman and child. When the male no longer takes this role, when he no longer has the courage or feels the moral responsibility, then that society will no longer be a society where honor and virtue are esteemed. Laws and government cannot replace this personal caring and commitment. In the absence of the warrior protector, the only way that a government can protect a society is to remove the freedom of the people. And the sons and daughters of lions become sheep."
http://www.bugei.com/preach.html
And remember, there is no more fierce animal in nature than a mother defending her young.....
1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
WOO! off of the subject totally, but sweet Queensryche reference ;)
hmmm, 10 years ago wasn't it the evil heavy metal music that made kids freak out???? hmmmmmm
1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
This last episode had a kid facing expulsion for creating a "hit list" of those who bullied him, which the kid explained as being writing ideas.
There are two ways that we see kids "go over the edge." They hurt themselves, or they hurt others. The direction of the violence doesn't matter because the cause is the same. A kid will explode when the pressure builds past the point of failure.
If we teach kids how to deal properly with their social problems, without running to an adult for help every time, and without taking up violent measures, then many of these problems will be solved.
And why is that?
Then again, if you do that, its more likely you'll accidently shoot yourself or someone else than have a killer break down your door.
Just some food for thought.
Two words: Charles Starkweather
"Honesty is the key to a relationship. If you can fake that, you're in." --Rich Jeni
The media did not want to spread this information because it could make heros/martyrs out of the shooters. The truth of the matter is: the classmates of the shooters have a large responsibility in shaping the actions of the shooters.
:).
The shooters are martyrs for the cause of freedom of individuality. The media will not show this of course, as they are members of the pop culture that ignores the harassment of individuals, which leads to children killing other children in acts of heroism/ self defense.
If we cannot tolerate violence in our schools, we must stop it at the source: the little physical/mental intimidation games that eventually lead to an individual having to take care of the matter, in one way or another. There is no: kids will be kids. There is only one way, or the other, violence and death, or the other alternative, peace and death
In the distance you hear an ominous moo.
The U.S. just had an election in which an arrogant bully "popular" type won against a nerd. (Well, all right, Bush didn't really win anything except the decision of a corrupt Court, but the man still acts as if he won and hardly anybody is challenging his legitimacy.) It seems unlikely in such an atmosphere that bullying will ever be judged harshly.
The average 10 year-old has seen more than 7,000 murders on tv & in movies and has most likely shot countless "enemies" playing video games. Believe it or not, this is actually what our military does to get soldiers over their reluctence to kill. As part of their training, soldiers watch films of people being shot & bombed and play video games (role-playing) where they shoot & kill the enemy.
People don't just act out in violence unless they have learned somehow to be violent. On top of that the values of our society have gone downhill since the sixties. And kids have gotten meaner. If Big Johny has seen countless violence on tv, why would he have any mercy on geeky Fred? And if Fred blown the heads off of countless enemies on his computer, why wouldn't he just blow Big Johny's head off too?
--
You may not find a place for yourself in society, but you can make one. to each his own, and you have every right to your own views and ways.
DON'T PANIC
DON'T DO ANYTHING DRASTIC
you will find or make a place for yourself in life, but it might not happen in the next 5 days, 5 weeks or even 5 years. Self discovery and finding a "place" for your found self takes time, and to some extent, will never end. Life moves faster and faster all the time, and it may seem hopeless now, but with time things will get better for you.
TAKE YOUR TIME.
if you stand back and look at your life as a whole, you'll see that a bad day, or even a bad year, is really only a very small piece of the big picture. Even if the first 18 years of your life seem like utter crap, you still have another 50-80 years to make your way through the world and taste life. Life can be sour, and it can be sweet, but as a whole in the end it tastes pretty good overall.
Don't remove the option for yourself, or others around you, to grow to enjoy life, even if you're not having a swell time right now.
Don't compromise your views and opinions to gain acceptance, there are many who will accept your views as their own, and even those who will see it differently and respect you no less.
to quote from the Beatles:
"Please Don't Be Long"
diversity is "the spice of life" and it's those who shut you out that really have a dull existence.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
What Buddhist resents?
We accept and persuade. We never resent.
Like a falling stone, we present ourselves, allowing natural forces to work in our favor.
The following is how a Buddhist would have revealed the post:
"Religion has a place in society. Immorality has substance to those peoples that embrace common values. The young lady Smith was indeed Wiccan, and she was persecuted for this belief."
And that is all you had to say... but I'd doubt you would receive a 5 for that... or would yoU? :)
LN
***
Impeccability is an acronym;
"I measure perfectly every common conception and believe it lightly into the year." - Scott Leonard
Fix?
**********
If it says "Troll" on this post,
I successfully annoyed a nerd herd!
As a geek, an introvert, a father and on occcaision, a depressed person this article strikes home for not only myself, but many others as well I am sure. I don't think it is just the taunting, or just the video games or any one singular cause. I watch friends of mine, who love FPS (not that big on em myself) games playing, and I watch their 18month old to 5 year olds sitting there mezmerized. I show my 8 year old son a game called "Carmageddon" and he takes the controller and with great glee begins running over the pedestrians (part of the game no doubt), and when he can find no more he turns to me and asks me "find more people for me to run over daddy". So yes, I think games can have some negative effects when in the wrong hands and CERTAINLY when given at the wrong time. During their development as people, when a child is learning right from wrong. these games are not good.
The again, we go to the parent I mentioned before, as well as myself. Is it fair for me to play these games in front of my child? Is it ok for me to scream at the screen, or unleash a stream of profanity that would make any sailor blush while my child is watching me fight a human-like creature on my screen? Is this not teaching by example? Is it right for a parent to expose a child to this senseless violence? Part of the problem is the games, but part of the problem is the parents. I'm not saying we need to go back to the "good old days" of The Cleavers (then again I'll bet the Beaver is pretty dysfunctional!), But I am saying that we need to be more mindful of what we choose to expose our children to.
So now, what else influences these things? Other kids? HELL YEAH! Kids can be the cruellest people on earth, especially towards another child they may have percieved a weakness in. All ages, from kindergarten through high school, though by high school we have become young adults, who we are is setting in, our choices are mostly our own. I remember high school, I remember being different. I remember the torment, I remember the annoyance, I remember wondering if 'those' people were truly worth my time. I cannot explain how it feels, just like most teens or children cannot explain the dynamics of their interactions with others, or why some of us are teasers, and some teasees... But what I am trying to say is that We need to actively raise our children, teach them right from wrong and be there for them when no one else is. I'm nto saying it will solve the problem, no matter what we do for our children they will eventually still be exposed to a society that is both retentive and infinately permissive at the same time. They will be exposed to all sorts of unsavory and unkind things, acts and people in their lives. The difference is, we try to prepare them as best we can for it. We try to teach that "blasting with a BFG" (or any weapon) is not necessarily the answer, we must try to teach tolerance.
"Children are our future, but they are what we make them"
"Boys have a Penis, Girls have a Vagina", kids say the darndest things!
we need to teach children about their valuable place in society as consumers! they're giving wonderful jobs to underpriveledged children in far away places. certainly, if they only knew their effect on the world, they would never kill themselves. or, maybe they would be sure to take out a few fellow consumers with them. as an aging society, we can't quite get our own priorities straight, so what exactly do you expect from them. ironically, "berzerk" does seem to fit, since we are waging a war on the values and attention capacity of children, and they innately sense the conflict. "fen" is also a good word.
The problem is caused by the mentality of parents and teachers. When they were young their parents paddled them good, so they don't do that to their kids. Also "back in the day" when kids had a fight in school the teachers would drag them to the boxing ring (schools don't have these anymore) and they let them go at it.
Nowadays parents spoil their kids and big time because they don't want their kids to have it as bad as they did. Plus a lot of kids have two working parents and no supervision. The result is that we get a lot of kids like Nelson from the Simpsons. The are the result of bad parenting, broken homes, etc. These kids have nothing to feel good about. So they pick on and bully other kids. If you take a survey of bullies I guarantee that at least oh say 75% have some sort of family troubles.
Now you have bullies who need to pick on other kids to increase their self esteem. They usually pick on kids who get good grades, have "normal" families, and good lives. This is because they are easy targets. They are easy targets because they live sheltered lives. Seriously if you go to a "normal" American household where there are two parents, kids with good grades, etc. The kids don't know hardship. They have food, they get cars when they are 16, they get the newest video game systems. The bully is jealous of these things. So he has to put these people below him in order to feel like he is something special.
Now you have the set up, the bully is ready to pick on the victim. The victim's self esteem drops like a rock and the bully thinks he is all that. Even though the bully goes home to his drunk father, or he goes home to an empty house because he has all his parents gone or working. What happens is the bully picks on the kid until they snap. Most often the snap is a big yelling argument in the middle of school. Other times it's an actual fist fight broken up by teachers. Very often it seems the victim is depressed so greatly instead of snapping they kill themselves. And sometimes the victim snaps on the inside, saves it for later and makes plans about killing the bully.
I know that feeling. You feel as if those people are the scum of the earth, what the hell are they in school for? They are going to end up dead from overdosing on drugs or working in a gas station. They have no purpose in life except to make my life miserable. So in frustration the victim goes out and kills the bully.
However of course I did not kill anybody. I actually developed a very pacifist attitude. I say haha, let them pick on me all they want. I don't give a damn. I am now a CS Major at RIT, with many friends, and much happiness. All my bullies from Elementary and Middle School are working in gas stations. When I get a job I'll buy a car soon and laugh as they fill my tank. I pity all bullies for they are all poor souls with little to live for.
What is the solution? Well I'm not sure. Or else I would be very very rich, but I do have some untested ideas.
1) Make it VERY hard to get a divorce. And use common sense when determining custody.
2) Teachers, if you see two kids in a fight figure out which one instigated the fight. Give this child the largest punishment. The child who erupted tell them what I have said. That the other is going to end up working in a gas station, don't let the words hurt you, etc. etc. MAKE SURE THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS OR SUICIDE PLANS. CALL THEIR PARENTS AND HAVE THEM SEARCH THE HOUSE.
3) Bring back the old boxing ring to school. Soceity these days shuns all violence, even non deadly fist fights. Martial Arts have become Self Defense. This is why Pro Wrestling *shudder* and football are so popular. It is a way for males to expunge the the urge to hurt things. If you have kids box in school they can get rid of that energy.
Now you may be one of those people who still say well, the video games are still at fault a little. Well I'm sorry, but you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. How do I know? Japan. Japan has the most violent disgusting video games ever. Remember this is the home of tentacle hentai. Video Games are so popular that is is illegal to release an RPG on a school day. How many murders in Japan last year? 1, 2 at most. Yeah. Take that.
I know I posted late so I probably wont get modded up so people can see this, but if you do read it, print it out. Think about it. I know from experience, and I have made it through and I'm happy now. I also have some reccomended reading on the subject. Read "They Cage the Animals at Night." I remember in middle school the author spoke at our school. He said that he would rather go to school late and be beat by the nuns, because it hurt less than the kids picking on him. Read the book then read that again.
I hope I made my point.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I think that every kid should have to bring a sawed off shotgun to school, everyday. Then who would DARE bully anyone?
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
I always find 2nd ammendment debates interesting. It always seems to come down to the above scenario. However in the scenario you seem to villianize the Army and the police. Can we not remember that these are human beings like you and me? These people are not drones or robots, and if there was a good cross-section of people from different backgrounds and situations in your militia and police force, who truly protected what the US stood for, the government COULD NOT make them take over. Isnt that what democracy is all about? That a minority holds power only with the permission of the majority?
And as for the Nazi reference, 2 points: 1) Post WWI Germany did not have the checks and balances that the US has, 2) Post WW1 Germany was in such a Horrid Economic mess, that it was a lot easier for someone like Hitler to pop up and take power then it would be for him today.
May I also remind you that Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson and Roosevelt were *also elected* into office?
I love this kind of myth. It rings particularly well with people because they like to view the past through rose-tinted glasses. Whether you recall any shootings then or not is really quite irrelevant. You haven't brought up any statistics to back it up. See here for a really good example of how people's view of "better days" in the past, particularly relating to public school conditions, can be largely mythical.
Note that I haven't provided any statistics of my own. That's because I'm not making the claim. It is up to you to find statistics on school violence since it is you who are claiming it is more prevalent now than in the past. But I do have a copy of a novel of the era in question (the 70's) written by one Richard Bachman, also known as Stephen King. The novel is Rage, and it describes a school shooting and the events leading up to it quite accurately. While a fictional account is by no means a statistic, it might give you food for thought to realize that the presence of a gun in a school setting was plausible enough for a 20-something Stephen King to write a rather vivid novel about nearly thirty years ago. Personally, given what I see about other myths circulating, that the only thing in our society that has changed is that violent acts have been more sensationalized in the press than ever before, because the press has degenerated into a ratings frenzy as their viewer and readership plummets. These are statistics that can be readily checked and causes that can be easily demonstrated, and without doing much else I find it a far more likely explanation of the so-called "wave" of school shootings taking place.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Littleton is a southern suburb of Denver, and it's in the middle of the biggest cluster of shopping malls and apartments you have ever seen. And it's less than a thirty-minute drive from downtown Denver. Property values aren't quite Silicon Valley in that area, but rents in Aurora, 20 miles further away from the center of town, are $800 for a 600-square foot apartment. The metro area population, last I checked, approached 2 million.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Where are these facts coming from? Is it this mythological study?
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
I have friends and relatives that are teachers and have heard on numerous occasions how school officials look the other way when it comes to bullies. The majority of bullying come from the "popular" kids who more often than not have affluent parents. Their behavior is accepted rather than irritate the parents, and there are even teachers who side with the bullies in the harassing. I guess it's easier to go along with picking on a kid than trying to stick up for them. Some of these adults seem like they are still trying to fit in with the "popular" crowd.
But there have always been bullies, and there have always been guns. If anything access to guns has gone down at least a little bit in recent years due to legislation and safety measures. There has got to be something else causing this, but finding it (and doing something about it) is much harder than just blaiming the internet/video games/movies/TV etc and washing our collective hands of it.
I know what it's like. First, you need to be a little paranoid and/or depressed. When people notice, they're going to harass you over and over again. Eventually, you'll turn into a cold creep, without any feelings or any respect to human value or life.
I regret I never killed anyone.
some kids are jerks, some are not, and the rest float in between somewhere
I wonder : what should the floating rest do?
For all parents, should we also teach them when they see bullying they should do something to stop it?
Ricky
Because those video games and cartoons are exposed only to adult and teenagers, not children.
TV programs are more influential than other media because more young children are exposed to it.
Actually experiments could be done to study whether children exposed to violent programs are more likely to be more violent.
I think the scientific consensus is that violent program does actually invoke some agressive behaviour in children.
Japan could be a special case. Even Japan has low crime rate despite its violence in games and cartoons, it does not necessarily imply that video games and cartoons does not cause violent behaviour.
Moreover it could be that Japanese spend more times with their kids than American do. Adults should spend more time with their children when they watch TV and play video games.
Ricky
And so do the EU countries. Your point being?
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
To this day it never ceases to amaze me how many people shared experiences almost identical to mine in HS. I won't go into mine because you've already basically covered it all. The jocks/popular guys (they were one and the same where I went) picking on the geeks (basically me since it wasn't a very large school), the trailer trash girls latching onto the popular guys, and those same popular guys who are now working gas stations and grunt manufacturing jobs at just above minimum wage. I actually have proof of this - every time I'm home and see one of my classmates, they're working in the lumber yard or at the local grain elevator or something similar. I also share your depression problem, I've dealt with mine for about 11 years or so. I'm beginning to get the feeling this is , very unfortunately, the norm among geeks our age (it's been 5 years since HS for me). And, from the looks of things, it's just getting worse. But nobody does anything to stop it because "that's the way it is". Honestly, I know a lot of teachers are downright SCARED of the bullies, especially later in HS. Because a lot of the kids wouldn't blink for a second before beating the teacher as well. They know they'll get more community service hours..but seeing as they already probably have more than could be worked off in a single lifetime, they don't give a damn. And if the teachers are scared, who can help? Put a 300 lb police officer in every classroom? Yes it'd probably work but not effectively. I don't know...I share the same anger and scare as you do. There are a large number of former classmates of mine I'd like to see put through a meat grinder or something similar. I don't think I hate them as much as what they did to me and how they've influenced the formation of my personality through the scars they left. I hope they fry... Don't get me wrong though, life HAS gotten 100 times better since HS. What college I did go to (got tired of it in the end) was a blast! I'm now married to a wonderful woman, have a fun decently paying job, and lotsa computer toys to play with ;) It CAN only get better from here...just keep telling yourself that and you'll (hopefully) make it through. :) Or get online and play Q3 or CS and BLOW THE F***ING HELL OUT OF EVERYTHING IN SIGHT!! It's helped me deal with a lot of anger :) I'd have to say that FPS games have helped calm me down a LOT, not the other way around. I use them very much as a stress beater and they're quite effective.
Anyway I'd better stop writing...the facilities people are already vacuuming the office and want me to leave ;) It's just nice to get it all out in the open every once in a while. :)
Don't like what I've said, well PISS OFF! =)
"Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
>Seriously, what the f*ck does a person need a gun for anyway?
You're right, and what's more Hitler would agree with you.
Once upon a time, in the mid 80's, some of my buddies were on the way to the local rifle range with a trunk full of rifles, shotguns, and a couple 45's on the front seat. They stopped by the high school, which was in session, to visit with their old shop teacher from the year previous. While they were there, the assistant principal stuck his head in the car and noticed the guns, and started asking questions. After learning that they were there just for a minute and were on their way to the range, he said something to the effect of "Oh, okay, but be careful", and continued on his way. If this were to happen today, the school would be evacuated onto the football field, the local swat team would be dispatched, and my buddies would be collected and whisked away under tighter security than the President. Their houses would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, as well as their personal background, and if they didn't match up with a predefined conception of "normal" (or seemed a little too "sterile" for that matter), a case would be made and their sole purpose in life would become nothing more than a way for security guards and a warden to earn a living.
Things have gone from zero tolerance to practically negative tolerance. One kid got kicked out of school for drawing a soldier with a knife. I fear for my 14 year old nephew who loves to draw Anime' and all things war related (and is GOOD at it), yet strongly exhibits symptoms of ADHD (and constantly gets bullied for it). He gets detention for lashing out at his tormentors, and gets kicked out of detention and then suspended, for drawing Anime' instead of doing his punish work. Which is fine with him, he didn't want to be in the detention hall with those who got him there there in the first place, anyway.
Sprawling on the fringes of the city, in geometric order, an insulated border, in between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown.
Growing up, it all seemed so one-sided, opinions all provided, the future predecided, detached and subdivided in the mass production zone.
Nowhere is the dreamer or the misfit so alone.
Subdivisions, in the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out.
-Rush, "Subdivisions", 1981
The kids going through todays schools are being raised in a highly compeditive atmosphere. In elementary school up into highschool, kids have his idea that everything they do must be the best acceptable thing: the top mark, the newest clothes, be popular with everyone. And if they're not? Well, kids get made-fun-of/tormented if they don't look/act "normal", and if a school gives a kid 39/40, the parent goes and yells at the teacher.
It wasn't that long ago that i was in school. Granted i got made fun of a little for being "nerdy", but i coped with it. I also remember it not being so compeditive. In fact (and i don't mean to start a US/Canada debate), but in terms of university entrance, it seems far more compeditive in the US then up here in Canada.
Anyways, the point i'm making is this: if these kids are compeditive and eliteist as kids, then imagine what it will be like when they are the community, political, and business leaders of tomorrow. If you think George W is rough, just wait....
Quebec City 2000: Speak out against globalization
-MR
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
"Christian ideals" is exactly what the world does not need. However, it does need some generic religious ideals. Before you think anything, let me explain.
First, i am not a Christian. That said, i have studied several religions in depth, and understand that there are several basic ideas, some of which people like to call "Christian Ideals" common to almost all religions. What the english call common law, or civil law in france, are derived from these basic ideals, which generally include:
-not killing, stealing, raping, etc -respect for the beliefs of others -community involvement (i don't mean prayer) -respect for people of authority (leaders, people older then you, etc)
These are essentially generic ideals which almost anyone in the world can agree upon. They have nothing to do with jesus, mohamed, buddah, or place relegious icon here. I don't believe religion should be taught or promoted in public schools. I don't believe prayer has a place in the classroom. What i do believe is that a few generic, inter-religious ideals do have a place there, and should be taught and reinforced.
-MR
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
I was one of those kids that was on the recieving end of all that bullying. I got pushed around a lot in high school, and it probably drove me nuts. It didn't help that the school had chose to pack 15 people into what used to be a utility closet for a computer class, shove 40+ people in a room designed for 25, and cut the lunch period to 25 minutes so they could actually feed everyone.
Having teachers that didn't care, guidance counselors that didn't guide, and a drill instructor for a phys-ed teacher didn't help either. Guess what, folks? You pay a teacher $18,500 a year, do you think they're going to care? No, they're not. They're going to leave that classroom, get in their 10-year-old Ford Escort and drive across town to their second job so they can pay the rent/mortgage/whatever that month.
People wonder why the quality of education has gone down. It's because the quality of the teachers has gone down. Drastically. Take it from someone who's been through the meat grinder that is high school.
I don't necessarily blame the teachers. If they were paid more, they'd probably care more. They wouldn't need to haul ass to that second job to pay the rent. THey'd be able to spend more time working on their lessons, or talking to students.
What say we spend a few billion less on our military machine and a few billion more on new schools, and higher salaries for teachers. It horrifies me that these people are responsible for giving our children an education, making them what should be the most valued profession, and yet, they're among the lowest-paid. Garbage collectors get paid more than the average teacher in the US! It's ridiculous how badly skewed our priorities are in this country these days.
And for God's sake, people, don't blame movies, TV, music or videogames for violence in schools. Maybe if teachers could teach, and talk to kids, instead of them all being packed in like sardines, maybe we wouldn't have this problem.
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that you're an idiot!
I agree that it is the other kids that start the problems most of the time. We can identify the problem all we want, but how easy is it to fix it at the starting point? When was the last time you tried to change the mind of a 10 year old?
- This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along, move along..
It's almost like the media is doing a reverse-Sesame Street on parents:
Today's broadcast on today's incorrigible youths brought to you by the number 666 and the color "black".
If only adults weren't so susceptible to what they see on TV.
Now I just have to wait for Cheney to get us into another "polic action" and start up the draft again, so I can move to Canada and live a decent life.
- Dan I.
Perhaps the school shootings aren't increasing in frequency, but increasing in success rate. I can't say that playing quake is more likely to turn you into a cold-hearted killer than, say, Football or any other violent sport that the media would suggest as a "health" alternative to gaming. What quake will do, however, is make you more efficient at killing if you happen to already be ready to go off. Maybe what is really bothering people is how accurate kids are becoming. In the past I remember hearing about kids bringing guns to school and injury one person.. without many bullets fired. Now we hear about many killed many injured, few misses..
"I think everyone has got it all wrong here.. We we really need to do is strike at the heart of the problem... SATAN!!!" That's probably the discussion going on right now in the backwards minds of the republican congress..
High school. Oh, wow, what an experience. My district is in it's twelfth year of some stupid deseg lawsuit, and they cannot even hardly afford to school their students anymore. The tax rate in my city is incredible. In any case, fortunately for me, I am in the Academically Gifted program, and we do real, challenging work, as opposed to the shit that the normal classes in my school do (and my class time is not taken up with any disciplinary problems-- you're there because you wanna be). I like school because it gives me a chance to socialize, but too many of my classes are wastes (my electives). I've never really been physically abused or anything, but the underdeveloped cretons who go to my school are sooo obnoxious in the hallways, cafeteria, etc., and they can get in your face sometimes. The good thing about the Academy is that we're all a little weird (well, lotsa preppies too, but...), and all smart enough to accept all groups, so my geekhood is not a problem.
As to sex, I don't get enough; I'm a nice guy, and, besides, I don't like dirty white trash uneducated girls.
To the real point of this, I hate high school because of the grade game (even in the academy, it's not important if or what you actually 'learn'; it's important to get that 'a' by any means. So I'm a slacker. Anyway, my school district has of late cracked down on drinking pop and eating in classrooms, as if this is a problem (it never is, at least in my academy classes; we're at least that mature), as if to take their minds off the REAL and GIGANTIC problems this district is facing, ie, going bankrupt. The administrators are overpaid imbeciles, and the hall aides came from the bottom of some lost, forgotten barrel (they speak such heavy ebonics that no white person can understand them; they are racist, favouring the black kids, which gets me all the time. Once I got in trouble for AGREEING with one of them!!!) Well, the point is thqat life BETTER get better from now on, because while the actual dynamics of high school aren't that bad, elected schoolboard officials and administrators do their best to make life hard and act completely illogically (like making our computers COMPUTELY UNUSABLE by my C++ class because 'you could make bad programs with those compilers'. Give me a break.)
Gene Simmons will consume your soul...
Don't the moderators recognize hard, bitter sarcastic irony when they read it?? Geez...
Gene Simmons will consume your soul...
First, some background... I went to a small local catholic school from "Pre-First" (an intermediate for kids too old for kindergarden but too young for first grade) to 5th grade and my life there was miserable as anything else. I was cast out as having the "Richard Disease" which mean that everyone had to avoid me. No friends for poor Richard. Eventually they outgrew that and began to cause more personal pain. Mocking be for not being athletic and being smart. My summers were not much better. Usually they were worse. I was physically abused by my peers and there was nothing that they day camp staff could do. Kathy, the program director was on my side, but what could she do? Nothing worked. She was better than my school teachers who ignored the problem or punished me for retaliating. My summer problems were alieved when I finally punched the lead jerk-off in the face after 5 years of torment. However I had to literally run away from the problems at school. I transferred out and into a Public Magnet School (J.R. Masterman). Well, now I'm in High School and I still carry those horrid, bitter scars. I want to hurt those who hurt me - not by killing them... just punching the jerks in the face... a little physical pain to make them know how I felt being a pariah. I'm lucky I didn't snap or have easy access to weapons. Also Doom helped as I could visualize the hellspawn as my peers... virtual killing is much safer than the real thing. I'm glad it's all over, but I will never recover.
It lives up to it's name: http://www.sanspoint.com
Has there ever been a point in history where kids weren't bullying each other? It's part of growing up. Biology teaches us that at our most basic, we are competing against everyone else for resources. In school, these resources tend toward the social kind rather than food or shelter for survival. Bullying, posturing, and picking on people is an easy way to put yourself above someone else on the social totem pole if for no other reason than it attracts attention. To do so is an immature way to achieve social significance, but then again, we're talking about kids, and kids are supposed to be immature (it's a part of that whole growing up thing).
Anti-bullying programs are an interesting idea - but I'm almost sure the idea came from some 60 hour work week parent who can't half remember the name of his own child.
The point of intervention remains, as it always has, in the home. Placing the blame on TV, video games, or movies is just an attempt to eliminate the need to raise your children.Kids kill themselves or others for one reason - they feel like they've lost control. If there's no olive branch to grab onto, then extreme measures all of the sudden don't seem so extreme. The people responsible for protecting and teaching children about the world - both the good and bad parts of it - are their parents. I wonder about Tempest Smith's parents and if the first clue they had about her problems was when they saw her cold body hanging from her bed. I'm sure that the late nights at work and the new episodes of Survivor were worth it...
Maybe Eminem said it best: "Get aware, wake up, get a sense of humor/Quit tryin to censor music, this is for your kid's amusement/But don't blame me when lil' Eric jumps off of the terrace, you shoulda been watchin him - apparently you ain't parents."
Oh now that is an excellent point. The concept of action and consequences does seem to be a lacking subject in our curriculum. I remember we used to have "citizenship" classes in elementary school. They played some older 1950's reels discussing everything from personal hygene to working and playing well with others. These days, the only time I see anything resembling that is on Saturday morning cartoons among the features and commercials. The personal affect teachers can have on their children [students] can be and is profound. I say we pay our teachers more, give them more power to enforce discipline and ... yeah, take us a few steps back to a time when this sort of thing was simply unheard of.
I also wouldn't mind seeing gun saftey as a course taught in school!
As a reference, here's a little about me...
Non-christian, Texas-born, 32yo, male, caucasian, from a large [broken] family, non-smokers, occasional drinker, non-graduate [neither HS nor College], professional {65+K/yr}, single, two sons [w/ custody].
This is said that no assumptions about me can be made too incorrectly. I take civic responsibility seriously and I wished I could observe the same for a majority of citizens and residents in this country.
Who tore down the "old schools"? Were they worse than the new ones? I don't think so.
It has nothing to do with video games or music. Most psychotropic drugs they prescribe for school children contain serious mind altering chemicals that can create psychotic behavior. Ritalin, Prozac and Cylert are the popular ones right now. Most of the kids who go crazy and start shooting people at school are on some type of prescribed drug. I know it may sounds weird to some of you, but prescription drugs are BIG business. Getting more and more kids on them makes these companies allot of money. Schools can get more government funding based on the number of kids who are referred for psych drugs.
The beauty of it is that people would never look to the drugs being the cause because they are suppost to "cure the child". It is brushed off as "we didn't get him on the prescription soon enough" and "he/she was crazy already because they were being treated for mental problems" when it was this very thing that makes them go crazy. The side affects of mental drugs can and do produce the same effects as cocaine, heroine, LSD and others.
When someone who is high flips out and kills someone, the drugs are blamed. Mental drugs are never blamed since they are suppost to be "helping". The psychiatric community has no proof that the drugs they are prescribing have any affect on what they are suppost to cure. But like said...prescription drugs are big money.
You can find controversial data on psychiatric drugging all over the net. Compare the statistics of the rate of psych drugs on school children to the rate of school shootings and you will find they run side by side.
You don't need a slashdot article to have realized this. It's all about the blame game. Politicians blaming things other than the real cause. Hell, i think parents should be going to jail for this, aren't the kids their responsibility until their 18?.. Guns must have nothing to do with it either. The fact that all these kids seem to be able to get guns as easily as candy bars in no way sugests that there are too many guns around this country. Noo, of course not. Teachers and other students find bullying behavior OK, yet they're all saddened why some kid who was picked on takes a gun to school and shoots a few people. Hello? Schools are like juvenille prisons sometimes. And of course the media has nothing to do with it. Everytime some kid goes to school with a gun it makes headlines and gets attention throughout the country. WTF, if these kids who are being bullied and abused in school want to cry for help, what better way to? It's just the stupidity of people who even listen to others who blame things that aren't the cause of the problem that piss me off. Yes, go and blame doom. That's the first thing i heard from the colombine incident, is that he used to play doom and quake. Hmm, i guess all that time running around with a bfg and shootin' monsters must of made him go psycho. Kattz, no one really listens to people like john ashcroft. The only ones who do are other politicians that are up in the blame game and bad parents who are out campaining instead of taking care of their children. All of the kid's who went aronud shooting, go look at who their parents are. You'll find 9/10 that are just plain bad parents. They don't watch what their kids are doing, they don't talk to their kids, all they do is come home and watch tv and forget that they even have a family. Also, there might be a correlation between levels of neurotoxins in the air and this sorta behavior, but that might be stretching it a bit far. -Hypergreatthing@yahoo.com
Anyone who doesn't think bullies are responsibly for half of this behavior is wrong. Hell, they probably had it comin' to them.
absoultely. I'm not saying go out and do drugs, I'm just saying, thats what I did to get away.. and you know what, I learned alot from it.. better that I did them in highschool then watching some ooooold friends who thought I was crazy for going to keg parties, start doing coke and all that other bullshit when they got into college, where it really counts...thats, supercool my friend.
.kb
save a mouse, eat a pussy
Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right-- But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better
You raise an interesting point. True, a huge number of people did die under Mao, mainly because of the stupid economic actions of the gov't. However, the Chinese gov't now, while still being the CCP, is totally different--after Mao, the people that took over were the very ones that Mao had purged out of power (Deng Xiaoping et al.)If we're digging up history, what about the actions the US gov't took in killing Native Americans, endorsing slavery, etc. Or, closer to our time, Vietnam? I'm not anti-US gov't, but I'm not anti-Chinese gov't either. Both are equally legitimate, and reflect the values/wishes of the citizens of their country. (Yes, the Chinese support their gov't, just as much as most Americans support theirs.) Sorry if I'm a bit jumpy on this point, because most Americans tend to assume that democracy is what the Chinese want deep down inside, if they could only throw off their "despotic" gov't. This isn't the case. Even the biggest critics of the CCP (Falun Gong and the like) are anything but pro-democracy.
"Authoritarian governments always have a low murder rate -- because they aren't counting the murders they commit." Hmm, don't you mean Texas? Seriously, if you've never been to China, please refrain from commenting until you actually know something about the situation. You might be right, but until you have some first-hand experience I really do suggest you visit. Try living in a country before you criticize it. People tend to resepct informed opinions more. And yes, I do have first hand experience. And no, no one got shot. Sorry for the off-topic rant, but must American know shit about the cultures they always jump to criticize.
While I agree that an authoritarian measure isn't always the best solution, I'm not sure bully is really the main problem here. Bullying isn't limited to the US--it happens just as much in Japan, China, just about any other country. Why are non-American kids not blowing away their classmates? Hmm, maybe it has to do with the fact that guns are much more strictly controlled in other countries?
I've heard Heston repeat that "...a well armed society is a polite society." Give it a few generations, he may be right.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
What a total crock of shit. The availability of cheap, mass produced guns is a product of the 20th century. 200 years ago, guns were expensive, inaccurate, hard to load, and slow to fire. The repeating rifle didn't make in into civilian hands until after the civil war, and the semi-automatic handgun wasn't available until the late 1800s. Today's guns are cheap, mass produced, accurate, and provide rates of fire that would have given General Washington a woody.
You are right in that it doesn't make it the gun's fault, but your reasoning is all fucked up.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
You generaly hear about them shooting up abortion clinics, drowning their kids in the lake, and having afairs (and kids!) with 13 year old Jr High students.
Apparently they are so busy practicing their "wholesome Christian values" that they don't have time to shoot up the schools. If the Supreem Court ever overturns Roe v Wade, I'm sure you'll see them shooting up the Title IX building in the name of God.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
Whaaa!!! I'm getting picked on! Thats *never* happened to anyone else before! No one understands me!
You were "raised to conform?" So, now it's your momma's fault?
Folks, this here AC is a classic example of why all kids, from all eras, are universaly pathetic.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
Indeed, a good idea. If no one else had a gun, most of us wouldn't feel a need to have guns. However, the police will surely keep their guns and criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns. Therefore, we will always need to have guns. Thus, it's silly to make the argument. The idea that the presence of guns can be absolutely eliminated is an absurd one. It's no wonder that idealist liberals are usually the people in favor of gun control!
I'm a gay man and my childhood experience was to be taunted because I was perceived to be gay (but I wouldn't admit it to myself at that time). Bullies are the worst blight on America. They affect all apsects of society from childhood to when they become asshole Republicans which thrive on blaming the victims.
One of the biggest social pressures for children to have sex revolves SOLELY in the Evangelical church's laps. They put the big requirement that children "prove" themselves not to be homosexual, causing kids to taunt other virgin children, and then applauding them for having sex in their teenage years. Then these asshole Republicans blame sex education for these preteen pregnancies. That leads to the asshole Republicans to demand more control of the schools so they can further screw our nation's children in the heads.
Then the Republicans gut the educational standards, censor the textbooks, and push the kids out even if they've learned nothing. All of this gives rise to more angry asshole Republicans who are as dumb as bricks for another generation to endure. Check on your bullies, they're all solid Republicans now. Inbreeding idiocy for screwing the next generation.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
And yet in many areas of the United States, it is illegal to purchase or sell booze on Sunday. This is religion forcing the rest of society to fit within its desires. The last I knew sodomy was illegal in many states. And there are other more obvious laws that Christianity has forced upon the voting public.
Please note that this is blatently illegal under the Constitution.
And yet the laws persist. Christianity just likes to be more equal than others.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
Yeah, how dare people eat too much red meat and get heart disease! How dare people smoke and then whine about their cancer to the government! How dare hetrosexual people have sex and catch AIDS then demand government money to find a cure! How dare people expect any cause for their ills from a government that has an vested interest in helping its taxpayers!
T im es/Plague.html
I submit to you another uneducated Republican asshole.
It sure as heck is easy to parrot rhetoric, but to actually THINK beyond it no longer a Republican value. The last I knew diseases were a matter of social interest to cure. However, sometime around the first plague years in the church-lobotomized Dark Ages, people began to wake up that prayer was pretty damn useless against Bubonic infection. The church accused the sinners and did nothing else. When the people woke up and noticed the chuch was useless and deceitful and exploiting their terror, people abandoned them.
http://www.byu.edu/ipt/projects/middleages/Life
Blaming the victim is always the favorite game of the Republicans (next to always pretending to be the victim). They're as useless as the church in that time. They don't want people to be well, but always cursing themselves for weakness. They did this for EVERY disease that has come and gone in history. Then when the disease is no longer a threat, the Republicans come in and claim they were the true saviours.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
The reason that kids gang up on and bully other kids is....
That is what they are genetically programmed to do when they hit puberty! Yes folks, that's right. We are all victims of our genetic code...genetic code that is a holdover from the ancient hunter-gatherer societies of the past. In the past, these sort of aggressive, gang/tribe-building excercises would have served to strengthen individuals and tie together bands of men who would later in their life depend on that strength and those bonds for their very lives.
Behaviour of this sort is not only common among young males of nearly every species of mammal on the planet, it's standard. These behaviours are evolutionarily designed to sort out who the alpha males will be and who will be a part of the pack/tribe. Granted, we don't need these behaviours any more now that we live in a nice, modern, non-physically demanding (relative to our past) society. But you can't breed out a couple million years worth of evolutionary programming in 200 years. Especially when technological innovation is reducing the need for adaptation and thereby lessening the role of evolution in our species. Now the people whose behaviours are counter-productive don't die off (normally) and they can still introduce those behaviours into the next generation. Uh-oh!
Not that genetics is totally to blame for their behaviour...environment plays a part. Let's face it, the kind of pseudo-violent role determination that took place among adolescent males in ancient times is pretty much frowned on in today's environment. Ok, actually it's outright illegal most of the time. So what happens to these biological urges? You've got 2 options: You can express/channel a violent urge through violent/physical action (fighting, rough sports, etc), or you can repress it until it builds up to the point that you explode into physical/violent super-expression. There's no other way about it. BTW, I know this because when I was about 13 years old I tried to suppress those urges. I eventually popped and almost killed my father, after which my family very quickly found ways for me to channel those urges and that energy. I'm a normal, happy, healthy member of society nowadays.
But I digress...the point is, parents aren't involved enough with their children to know when these needs aren't being met. Parents don't know enough about children and teenagers and the reasons for their behaviours to be able to deal with this situation. Society is doing absolutely nothing to validate these feelings or urges in adolescent boys, let alone provide an outlet for them. Parents, teachers and legislators are obsessed with looking for the environmental source of the behaviour, and it's just not in the environment. The source of the behaviour is in the adolescent's nature. It's only brought out by the environment that we currently live in. Violent entertainment, school bullies, suicides, and mass shootings aren't the problem. They are merely the symptoms or effects of the problem. Until such time as this society realizes that they're looking at this backwards, they will not find a solution.
No, that is Islam. Muhummad was the one who put to death all who did not believe in Allah.
You may have seen the Maryland teenager (18) who was just arrested for sending IM's to some students at Columbine and California where the last couple shootings occurred. For those that don't know, he sent some pretty heavy messages to some of the surviving students about "finishing the job". He was arrested and is now awaiting extradition for some heavy charges in 3 states.
I know the guy personally (for most of his life)and I know he wouldn't have done any of the things he said. I know his parents haven't done crap to raise him properly and that they always blamed his Attention Deficit Disorder for any problems he had. It's sad, because he's a pretty good kid who's overly-hyper and doesn't think before he acts... mostly just looking for attention. Now he's facing some pretty hefty charges, no longer a minor, in a time when the courts would be happy to crucify someone and create a scapegoat for all the bad things.
However, I have to vehemently disagree with eliminating a zero-tolerance policy. This is the same attitude that allows a parent to blame someone other than the child and themselves and face the consequences. This guy will probably get some hefty punishment and it will be justly deserved. I guarantee no matter what it is, he will take every opportunity to think before he acts next time... and maybe it will be a deterent for the next person.
all the 'militia' talk bandied about is at best a joke... or worst, dangerous fantasy if it encourages people to live in our communities with assault weapons in the closet.
Thank you for stating it far better than I did.
I believe your second amendment refers to the maintenance of a regulated militia to protect the state for the people, not the right for every citizen to carry a handgun.
"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
It was a measure enacted to protect state militia forces against disbandment. The federal government had a professional army that had the potential of being used as "an instrument of oppression" (similar to the British oppression earlier), so the anti-federalists wanted to protect the state militias just in case.
Using the second amendment as a crutch against gun control the way you have is ignorant. It took me less than 2 minutes to find out a basic accurate history of the amendment, and I'm not even American. Don't you learn your own Constitution in school? Shouldn't you know this already?
Erm.....Well, it seems so obvious to the rest of the world, I'm wondering why I'm even bothering. However, the reason that the US has so many shootings in High Schools is the gun laws and the availability of guns. I'll say that again. ITS YOUR GUN LAWS. How many other countries in the world which have no guns or better gun laws have so many shootings? Hmmm....none. See the correlation here? Guns = more shootings, whether in schools or on the streets. As a UK resident, it seems blindingly obvious that the US should make guns illegal for private citizens. Common sense, no? Call me crazy, but the fact that Americans merrily blast the hell out of each other on a daily basis is because anyone can get hold of a gun. In the UK, I've never even SEEN a real gun. How many shootings in schools were there last yeat in Britain? None. Just a thought. :)
Jon.
Tron Software -= Kickin' Butt and Writin' Code =-
Parents should pay attention to their children, nurture them, do stuff with them.
During my most difficult high school years, it wasn't religion I turned to for solace. It was the fact that a good set of morals had been instilled in me.
Even so-called religious families can lead to this sort of thing, if nurturing and caring is not emphasized enough.
Just look:
Tell me, what else could it be...
The schools kiss the athelete's ass and looks the other way when they pick on someone
This is a nationwide, quiet policy that most schools have in place..
including mine
I remember freshman year, I was picked on terribly one of my classes, but the teacher blamed me for instigating! When a student played with a razor sharp cutting knife (it was an art class), and pretended to try to stab me and when I asked him to stop, I was yelled at and told to leave class by the teacher.
Same thing in my Spanish class, I had a book thrown at me and I got yelled at for it.
In these instances, I was trying to do my work, I was a prick in those days, (still am), but the things they did, were out of line.
I saw firsthand these polices take part.
In Junior year, I "sold out" to them and started hanging out with them. This was 1998, when geeks where being accepted as mainstream, by 2000, I was as bad as my tormentors, but I got into trouble, they didn't because they were althetes and I wasn't, (I did play lacrosse).
What we have to do is get our piorites straight. Sports isn't everything and a school should focus on academics and not sports because your more likely to have successful students than atheletes.
You don't think the school's kiss jocks' asses? Whats with the rallies then? They take time out, let the students decorate the place and take time out of class to go cheer for their team.
But no one cheers for the Science Olympiad..
People are starting to use lawsuits in order to get the wakeup call across, but school's won't listen, they want to keep the jocks palacated.
Why? Because the jocks are a short term plan to make the school a name for itself, so it places a policy which lets them do practically anything they please, (see Varsity Blues for an extreme example)
Remember back on your school days, (and today if you went to school) and tell me that you haven't seen anything thats going on, and I'll tell you Bill Gates is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It contiunes in college as well, those special priviledges, but thats for another day...
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
... Mr. Katz has brought up a decent point. Stay at it.
I agree that videogames are not to blame for our society's decay. Parents, as corny as this sounds, just aren't making sure their kids know right from wrong. And I'm not talking about the shooters, I'm talking about the bullies.
While preventing bullying altogether is virtually impossible, a lot of times, I'd bet, you can prevent some bullying...
Videogames are just the politician's and society's scapegoat. People have their heads buried so far in the sand...
Do you like German cars?
There was a shooting at a Roman Catholic school in Pennsylvania.
Do you like German cars?
"Yet a vastly greater number kill themselves because of their peers."
It's not in the headlines and the mass of peoples are not aware of it, so it is a non-issue among politicians. It will become an issue when the people or media make it one that deserves the concern it needs.
I have a very small mind and must live with it.
I have a very small mind and must live with it.
-- E. Dijkstra
In Japan, failing a class is public humiliation, a life-shattering event
Sucks if you're graded on a curve, then. Someone will always fail, regardless of effort.
I may be wrong, but I'm never uncertain.
So if games such as doom, quake, unreal, and halflife. are responsible for such acts, when can we expect to see news reports of girls/guys going mad at school and rewall papering the classrooms (ala SIMS) It seems to me nobody wants to look at the underlying issues. Its hard to be a teen... It allways has been and it allways will. The times are just different. This wont stop, it will get worse and worse. Kids are now starting to see that hey, If I go nuts and blow away a few ppl on my list, I will make the news and my point will be heard. We have sent them the wrong message. We should of started weeding out Bullies in the school system, they are not that hard to idenify. But instead we feel we have to attack something. Why not games.
what kind of brain-damaged moron could blame the internet for school-shootings? Why is this fucking idiot Katz allowed to post? I blame the internet for idiots like Katz
We could talk also about how many kids are killed by cars... By preventable accidents and diseases... We could talk about how many kids are contracting AIDS while the same *ssholes who decry violent video games push to keep decent information about sex out of schools... Car crashes, falls, sick and starving kids are boring. School shoot-outs are exciting. They "play" well on the news. The best way, short of an active and enlightened population working towards a common good, to address the overpopulation issue... Is to keep pursuing screwed up priorities in our policy issues just like we are right now. One other thing - noone really cares about school shootings except as a thing to drone on and pontificate about, precisely becuase they are so rare. The stunned reactions of the school district that draws that unfortunate lottery is the exact reaction of the person who gets told their kid just got killed in their car. Everyone knows it can happen, it does happen, and it will happen again.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
It's true that kids will be teased no matter what. I also agree that the major problem with teasing is that it doesn't stop. Some poor bastard wets his pants in elementary school, and it follows him until he graduates.
The only thing that helped me in school was that my dad was in the military, and we got to move around a lot. Granted, the teasing would usually start up again. So After a couple of years of teasing and torment in one place, I would get to the point where I had to leave. My saving grace was that I knew that we would be leaving. I think most kids don't have that luxury, so what other way out do they have? Kill themselves, or get themselves thrown in jail.
My sig sucks.
I was a geek in school, still am. I had red hair (an EASY target) but I think I turned out ok. In fact, I'm often cursed cause I'm too nice. I've also played games ever sense I had my first 8086. I have yet to kill anybody. In fact, I've found that gaming instills just the opposite desire. Its something I enjoy, something I look forward too. Online gaming has helped in that regard as well. Go to any LAN party I can almost garrentee that noone there is packing. Everyone is having a good time at it. Sure, you may get irrittated that that punk keeps sniping you were ever you go, but then you switch games and snipe someone else. The point to all this rambling is games may actually be part of the solution,not the problem. It allows us an escape route for our pent up anger, the modern punching bag. I personaly enjoy comming home after work to hunt down Diablo and his minions. Lets get these kids some more practice time to help build their self esteme! (sorry for the crappy spelling.)
"A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one."
Read the first sentence, and then compare to item B ...
What part of Katz's commentary are you actually disagreeing with?
Read his article more closely and you will see that he is making the same argument that you make in paragraph 2.
I guess most imporantly, who mod'ed this up?
I know, you don't.
In China, it must be much easier to inform on someone and get the gov't to kill him than it is to kill him yourself. Authoritarian governments always have a low murder rate -- because they aren't counting the murders they commit.
I think your comment about coaches is stupid and ignorant. Obviously you have never played a sport before. My highschool football coach made it his mission for us to help out the weak and less fortunate. We would especially make a retarded kid (politically correct) feel very welcome and very much a part of the football team. Before you go bashing something you have no idea about, understand that the very insult you tried to make showed you are no better than the jocks in school who picked on you.
fucking pisses me off when stupid people (ie. you) have kids and infect the gene pool for yet another generation.
why is it normal hard working americans are the ones without time for kids and the trashy single parent welfare mom's are having them all? seems a little backwards dont it?
Ok this is from an outsider (non-us) point of view.
:(. So why is it only US that has the problem of kids killing each other? It's the means available to the kids.
:). I know all of you arent that way, but your community is flooded with guns, and thus it's available to kids. When a kid is feeling hurt & angry. Either he takes it out on himself (suicide) or the bullying part.
;). But i can recognize the feelings in some of these kids, and if you have the means at your side it's so much easier.
:).
:).
Bullying has always been there i believe, that aint no country specific problem, infact research shows it's increasing in denmark too, we have our share of suicides too
I've gotta say, from the outside view you are (as a nation) obsessed with guns
My own experience, tells me that i've actually thought of how nice it would be if this person just wouldnt be there. Although i probably wouldnt had done bad stuff anyway, even though i'm a hardcore fps gamer
So remove the means, this case being guns.
But i guess that it is nowhere possible with the lobbying weapon companies does. While bush is just a puppet of the industry as far as i can see
Someone noted that his dad said you shouldnt care what other people say you are. Excellent advice. As a kid it will probably feel a bit useless, but keep telling the kid then some of it ought to get inside
still reading?
The biggest factor here is showing you care. When I was in middle school. I was Violent. I was the type that if you looked at me and I thought you had something about it. I beat the crap out of you. It was how I delt with my life and the stresses there in. It was the only outlet I had. Why because it was the only thing I new worked. Many a time Id see my father beat my mom or his girlfriend. Thus this is how I relieved my stress was to become a terror too. In 8th grade it came to a boil. A kid who had been teaching me to vent through sparing instead of random acts almost died at my hands. A that moment I made a vow and changed my life. My problem then became I didn't vent physicaly at all. I was afraid of who I would hurt. This lasted through highschool to my senior year. When I tried to kill myself. Tried was the key here. I didn't have it in me to finish. I spent a while in a hospital and began to open my eyes. Every kid there was there with similar background. No one took the time to show they cared. So I as a kid thought no one did. AND therefore it wouldn't matter what I did. Even if it ment ending my life or someone elses. Years have passed. I know now that not everyone can stop and say how they feel so they do it in other ways. But kids cannot see that. Now I go out of my way to talk to young people that I sene just need it. It makes a hugh difference. My nephew has avoided a lot because we talk about life. He knows he has someone. He still does crazy teenage things but he would harm anyone. Parents and people in general just need to take that time. Show someone that what happens does matter and there are equal reactions for every action. Thats all. If I had someone that did that for me I'd had a easier life. Then I couldn't help people now . peace StÅtic MÄgick
I has always been a problem, we've just chose to ignore it. WAKE UP.
Are we to believe that "Jock profiling" is any better the "Geek profiling" and shift the blame from the kids that loose it to those that "drive them to it".
Teasing and hazing and harassment have always been a part of the European style education system. Literature is full of examples of it, talk to your grandparents, read Lord of the Flies or Little House on the Prairie, just about any book talking about the pains of youth.
The rise of excessively violent and deadly behavior in children today can not be blamed on the ostracizing of the "different kids" alone or even in great part. The fact that parents don't communicate with their children or each other is a far greater contributing factor to school violence and teen suicide.
In many cases it is the "Christian" Kids who are creating the problems. The general harassment is done by those who are the norm. That's why the one's that strike out are different. The "Christians" have no tolerance for the different.
P doesn't cause Q. I should know, because I experienced P, and I didn't perform Q.
You are a sample of one. The fact that you are an exception does not prove that bullies don't contribute to school violence. If it did, I could just as easily prove that bad parenting doesn't cause killer kids by finding one non-killer with bad parents. (There are plenty.)
You may be able to make an argument that bullies and bad parents are both *necessary* conditions for going postal at school, but neither one by itself is a *sufficient* condition. Yes, good parenting probably would have prevented many of these incidents from occurring -- but so would the elimination of victimization by bullies.
And none of this is to imply, by the way, that these are the only two such factors. Surely there are many... the most obvious of which is access to a gun. Certainly a necessary condition, but obviously not a sufficient one.
Considering I just came out of the dismal abyss of being a teenager, I have a fresh outlook on the subject. There are two spectrum of adults which prompt our children to madness. 1. Self-Righteous (Hypocrites) Those who think of teenagers and adolescents as unthinking idiots who should not have any sayso in any matter until they are old enough to die in some war on foreign ground, or who has no right to an opinion, or who GOD FORBID he/she is ever right, especially if it would put an adult in the position of being wrong (this case usually calls the child or teen a smart-ass). These type of parents are not far from the dictator and oppressors that America at least tries to oppose. The fact is, left to run by these types of adults, children and teenagers have absolutely no rights other than what their school or household provide, and absolutely no democrasy whatsoever. All socities and countries governed by these rules throughout history have revolted, so what do we expect our children to do. This type of environment which leaves no freedom for children, no rights, leaves them angry, dissentful, and revolting. The only difference between a child which is brought up to harvest these feelings and emotions, and a country, is a child is still developing emotionally, and often make more irrational decisions over a much smaller time-period. 2.) The second type of parent is just bad parents. Parents who don't give a damn about themselves, much less about their children. This is the obvious case. Bad parents who neglect their child thru lack of attention, respect, or love (emotional abuse) or parents who physically abuse their child is just begging for a nutcase. Furthermore, parents who don't take enough interest in their child to notice that their child is in the basement building pipe bombs should be put on trial!!! In conclusion, if anything the violent games and television programs actually serve as a savior, rather than a harmful mediator. Instead of focusing on the kids that have went AWAL, look at the kids that have not. Those children and teens, and even adults who have shown a measure of self-restraint, yet still have the anger, resentment, or whatever emotional discouse inside most likely play the violent games, and watch the violent programs as a escape means. On a personal note, I'd rather my children fragging each other in Quake 3 rather than at school. Children are smart enough to draw the line between fiction and reality. Those who don't draw the line have other issues that need investigation.
yeah, but now it's the *white* kids!!!
It wasn't a big deal when it was just poor kids in innercity LA, but this is a much, much worse! The recent shootings are happening in *suburbia*, in places that should be held up as lofty examples of safe, quiet oppression, not tumultuous violence...
Y'know, on that note, I'm surprise I haven't read a comment yet (though I've only read about 80% of them) on the simple fact of copycat suicides and killings.
It's statistical fact (that's a generally oxymoronic term, I know, but the statistics on this effect are as conclusive as statistics can be), that widely publicized suicides of a certain type increase after someone starts a trend. It's just like naming trends, where a film character's name will spawn an entire generation of people naming their kids with similiar names. It seems to be at least worth paying attention to, if not entirely obvious, that we're in a similiar situation with suburban school killings. For whatever reason, there is a weirdly implicit suggestion that, if you're depressed, you can do something about it by getting back in a really big way, one that will give you a lot of attention. Why die suffering in misery when you can make the news, in other words?
the suggestion is out there... what do we do about it? I don't pretend to know (though pulling the cable from your tv is a good start IMHO)
P.S. I don't have any online resources to support my "statistical facts", but I've read of this effect in many books (for instance, "The Tipping Point," which is a fascinating look at points of inflection across science, nature, sociology, and economics)
(A little off-topic, but addresses Katz's premise.) What about the latest kid, Jason Hoffman of El Cajon, CA, to shoot up his school? His classmates described him as a regular kid who didn't get picked on at all. It's not always the bullied who go ballistic.
- jonese (http://farmaccidentdigest.com)
many of our learned behaviours come from the larger culture we are part of. this has been true for millenia and is even more true today.
in the past, culture was the "oral tradition" of history, entertainment etc. as well as the "village" which "raised" the children.
today we have a "televised" and "printed" tradition. advertisments. propoganda. sit-coms. whatever. this is the medium from which people of all ages ( especially those of the very susecptable early teens age ) are getting there "value system."
we only have to look at what those "values" are to understand the confusion, discontent and trauma which (kids) people struggle with.
-dan
----
ah, the Hollywood fantasy of the 50's....... There were broken homes then, there are broken homes now. There were bullies then, there are bullies now. I personally went through some sh*t in junior high (as we called it back in the late 60's). I had fantasies of killing bullies. I now have 4 teenagers, 1 boy, 3 girls. We had a situation with my son (now 19) in one of his classes, being physically picked on by bullies whenever the teacher stepped outside the room. My son got in trouble because he was on the floor a couple of times when the teacher came back in. We had a parent-teacher conference. I made it REAL CLEAR that he didn't have control of his class and he better get his sh*t together. We never had another problem. The problem is (IMHO) that kids don't want to stir up any trouble, fearing that the problem with the bullies will only get worse. As in most situations, diplomacy is required. Don't go around telling the bullies that you'll get them in trouble. Just find an adult (parent/teacher/whatever) and let them help you figure out a way.
I didn't do it, and if I did, you can't prove it. Bart Simpson
Why doesn't anybody remember Notes from the Hellmouth? Of course there are kids out there who are oppressed and alienated in their high schools every day. I know that nobody likes to remember Jon Katz's article, and that it is very painful to read, but it has a great deal of relevance to this subject. Ashcroft's move to blame the games is absolutely ridiculous. The schools are the problem.
My Karma is so good, I'm the Dalai Lama...or something.
Personally, I think they've got this wrong. To paraphrase Worf (talking to Alexander): "There is no honor in picking on the weak ... you must *earn* victory."
If only coaches would teach this ... I mean, do you really feel that much more like a man to pick on someone you outweigh by 100lbs?
The cold, harsh reality of a repulsive society that I have experienced first hand is a four year period shapes the rest of your life. Imagine after failing to do well at a "normal" school you find yourself in one with no social interaction whatsoever due to the once-a-week teacher only meeting. Funny, you're still an anti-social adult who loves to consider taking out a few "misdirected" people. Call me jaded, but, sorry, I don't find it suprising or upsetting when certain folks lash out; this is the balance of nature, folks, like it or not. You reap the sick harvest you sow.
mwtr / THIS SIG HAS BEEN PRAYED OVER AND MAY BE USED AS A POINT OF CONTACT (ACTS 19:12)
So when my four year old pushes your four year old at kindergarten how long should she go to jail for?
If you people would just do as you're told, everything would be OK.
It does. Really. HS sucks worse than any other time in your life. I've known dozens of ex-geeks, and the _gigantic_ improvement that happens after you get out is a constant theme. Nothing makes me sadder than hearing about some kid who kills themselves over school bullying. I just wish someone who has been through it could have told them before they did it that they're giving up on the best part, if they were just willing to wait a couple more years...
There's a very substantial difference between a 4 year old and a 15 year old. The juvenile justice system already recognizes this and exists to deal with it accordingly. The issue isn't "Can a kid understand what they're doing is wrong?", it's "This is unacceptable, frequently illegal behaviour. Should society (teachers, police, parents) ignore it because it's always been so?" Much of what passes for typical bullying at high school level is, as the previous poster so clearly pointed out, criminal in any other social context. It should be treated accordingly.
The constitution has the right to bear arms not to protect you from other citizens (that's what the police is for), but to protect you from the government.
The entire constitution was created to protect poeple from government oppression, the 2nd ammendment is no exception.
Right now, you're probably thinking, "what do I need to shoot the government for?" Well imagine this scenerio: government takes guns away from all citizens. The only people carrying guns now are police and military. The government starts doing things you don't like, what are you going to do? Throw stones at them? Tiananmen square anyone?
"But not the US, we're a democracy!" May I remind you that the Nazis were *elected* into office?
Ne Quid Nimis - All things in moderation
crapflood.
I graduated two years ago and I'm a sophmore in college right now. Let me just say this. It's not bullying. In the school I went to, all of the teachers were related in some way. They didn't know shit, and they didn't give a shit. The basic philosophy in schools now is handle it yourself. The school can't do anything to anyone because mommy comes down and wants to no why your persecuting her precious little boy. No one wants a law suit, so it gets dropped. Keep bringing it up and you'll start to get treated like crap by the teachers. Anyone remember actually trying to tell a teacher someone was hitting you. Don't be a tattle-tale.
I hated most of the members of my senior class because they treated me like shit all through grade school. Of course everyone acts different once they get past the 11th grade. We didn't call each other names then. You just talk behind each others back.
On the other hand, I had a lot of friends in the junior and lower class. I know some of those people really did change, but most of them are still vindictive pricks. They just figured out that Seniors have to pretend to be nice.
The teachers? The math teachers f***ing the chem teacher. The principal and vice-principal have both been charged with rape and molestation. Most of they others didn't know what the hell they were teaching. They all got their jobs because the school board is one huge family. No one who isn't related gets to be a teacher. It's that way in most places. There were a few teachers who make it all worthwhile. They don't pose as Mr. Chips for the parents. They tried to help you learn something because they knew it was going to be tough.
My parents were good. I have no complaints about them. We're living in an age of greed. Most people wax philosophical about "It takes a village." What that means for them is that they can depend on the school and the government and everyone else to make sure their children are being raised right.
I know most of this isn't coherent, but sometimes you just have to scream, rant, rave, and let it out.
But Yogi, the RIAA won't like that.
No, the pressure to stop bullying needs to come from the outside (teachers, parents and other kids that see it happening). This has been known for years and many of the schools just don't give a damn. There were many efforts made to educate the educators about this.
I know for a fact that the Littleton & Cherry Creek school systems aren't any good for kids who are smart and not athletic. Personally I was really shocked at the level of incompetence - the teachers were almost causing the harrasement themselves by picking favorites. My son was kept out of advanced placement simply because the teacher didn't think he was good enough. Although at the end of the year she admitted she made an error. Never mind the fact that his IQ has been tested at 135. I believe the teachers & adminstrators were too busy trying to suck up to the rich families sending their kids to school there.
I'm only surprised that they shot so many kids, I guess they were angry at the entire school for not helping them when they needed it. I SERIOUSLY doubt that the schools are any better now. Those teachers involved saw nothing wrong with what they were doing in the first place.
I'm sure the shooters believe they rid the world of some real bad kids who would turn into some really bad people. They probably did. And the school is to blame. If your kid goes to a school like that I suggest you take him/her out and let them do internet home school.
-------------------------------------
Technically, we are beyond survival.
Sure. Get rid of the guns. Thats the answer! After all, that approach has worked so well with drugs. Why don't we just reinstate prohabition, I'm sure that would cut down the number of people killed by drunk drivers. I own a gun, I like to target shoot, occasionally hunt, and if need be protect myself, maybe from someone with a knife, who knows? Just because it would allegedly work doesn't make it the RIGHT thing to do.
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
"Well, I guess we'll have to register you as a lethal weapon." Give me a break. You don't know a damn thing about me.
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
. . .And BTW excersizing my RIGHT to own a gun hardly makes me anachonistic.
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
. . .getting bullied for generations. Myself included. You just have to deal with it. Find friends in others who are buillied, fight back, ignore it, whatever. I also recall doing some bullying; maybe as some type of payback. I don't know. But the bottom line, as always is that you have to take responsibility for YOUR actions.
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
Uhh, I'm confused. You claim that we need to get rid of guns to stop the seemingly ever increasing crime rate in our society, but then claim you don't understand why law abiding citizens need to protect themselves. Think about what you're saying. . .
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
If we taught more social responsibility and less 'don't play violent video games' crap, there would be less explosive retaliation episodes like school shootings.
School is a vicious, brutal place where smaller children and those that are different are bullied and physically assaulted daily. The teachers collaborate and assist in this bullying as a rule even though they give the appearance of opposing it. Parents, particularly male parents of male children tend to discount bullying, tell children to stop whining and being wimps; never mind that it is hard for a little child to stand up to several large children without some assistance. Either most parents weren't bullied (unlikely) or they forgotten just how vicious it was
Bullies respond to only one thing - you have to hurt them, a lot. They are on average pathetic cowards who operate in groups - hurt them and they back off. I taught my child to fight when absolutely necessary, but when you fight you hurt the other person. He took out a bully twice his size and that pig and his friends will not touch my child again; nor will any other thugs because they now know he will defend himself. Initially the head of the school was very upset, but when it was made clear that we would expose him and his school as a place that condones bullying they backed off and they made a point of punishing the bullies.
Wrong, they never stop - I ignored these thugs for 10 of my 12 years at school and then I did what I should have done when I was six, I responded, I smashed the ringleader's nose, cracked his jaw and gave him a very severe bump on the head. My last year and a half of school was bliss - no bully even came near me or anyone associated with me.
Actually your gun is of little value, even if you're highly skilled with it. If I wanted to kill you you'd be dead and I wouldn't even need a weapon other than my hands.
It isn't the guns per se, but the idea that guns are a solution to problems in general. Movies and maybe games do present this idea, but it exists in the culture and is being reflected by movies not created by them.
God created Adam and Eve there son Cane killed his brother that is where it all started.
"Don`t worshop me like a god, Worshop me as your god."
I've been waiting for a very long time for someone to say this. It's the busy soccer moms and the straight-outta-college teachers that talk to chalkboards who cause this. And as a constantly bullied high school junior, I can say that video games and hard music actually help relieve anger and stress, not cause you to take it out on others.
Guns are absolutely strictly forbidden in Canada's National Parks. Any of them. But you knew that.
I have spent lots of time in the bush. I would never take a gun. One of the stupidest things you can do to a bear is shoot it. It pisses them off. Moose are one of the most dangerous animals you will encounter in the woods here. I can imagine how mad they would get if you shoot one with less than a .30 cal high power rifle. A 9mm handgun will have about the same effect as the bear. The only people who take guns into the bush are looking to kill something.
Gun ownership should be based on population density. Then only the Innuit would have them.
Sports.
The frequency that the jocks are pointed to as the primary bullies should have tipped people off to the problem. Schools put so much emphasis on sports that they spend a disproportionate amount of money on it. This often has the effect of isolating the geeky even more. When the geeky kid has a hard time getting access to materials and equipment to further his studies it makes it very difficult for him to try to wrap his head around the thousands of dollars his school spends on sports. The school's athletes are often the same from sport to sport so the money is not fairly distributed. Then the star athletes get the impression that they are more important than any one else and they let everyone know it. This creates resentment amongst the non-athletic. The solution here is simple. Get sports out of schools. It has little positive influence and if you believe what I said actually has a negative influence. Sports is plentiful out of school and the school's star athletes usually participate in sports out of school. With so many school boards complaining about lack of funds just cut the sports.
The suggestion that games like Quake or Doom teach kids how to shoot and kill is ludicrous. The skill of packing 40kg of ammunition, weapons and explosives then running around with it is more akin to the skills learned on the fooball field. Many sports reward violence and create a violent lifestyle. The rate of domestic abuse amongst professional athletes is disturbing. Today they are bullying you, tommorrow their smacking their wife around.
Guns
Another reason (and another sacred cow) is guns. I live in Canada and we have almost zero handguns here. I read so many comments that kids have to tolerate bullying and abuse for fear that any type of retaliation will mean that the guns come out. Here, because of the lack of handguns (which conceal easily) if a kid is bullying another he may have to actually put up his dukes and take some licks. This hidden danger of guns negates that recourse. The victim has no choice but to bottle it up inside.
Oh. I happen to love sports. I play and watch with fanatical regularity. I just think schools should focus on academics, have some emphasis on the importance of physical fitness but should not participate in competitive sports.
The world is a harsh place. I blame the media, not other kids. Kids have been bullying each other for a long time. No, it is the media, and the portrayal of the 'fairy tale'(1) ending. Real life does not work like that. No one is going to come and rescue you, people sometimes have irreconcilable differences, and sometimes people die.
The lying to children is horrible. It leaves them defenseless when the illusion of the perfect little happy world where nothing goes wrong. That is shattered by the grim reality at some point. And some people can not handle it, because they have never had to imagine or conceive of anything going wrong.
Stop looking at the symptoms, look at the problem. Parables play an important part of society. They teach people how to interact in situations, what is appropriate, and what is not. By eliminating the sad endings, you eliminate the lessons concerning how to deal with grief.
The man of steel never existed.
-CrackElf
(1) historic fairy tales did not always have the happily ever after endings.
"Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
The problem is not that there are too many bullies out there, but too many people allow the bullies to get away with it. The vast majority of kids are decent kids but like the rest of society they don't fight against the bullies who pick on the minority. Rather than focusing on the bullies we should try to support the majority who does not confront the bullies.
Another interesting note is that all of the examples come from suburban, middle-class schools. The attorney general of the US would rather spit out out-of-date demagoguery about stereo-typical inner-city violence. I can only imagine that this is easier to swallow in the suburbs and make it easier to keep heads in the sand.
No politician wants to insult his base support. Perhaps the real problem is appointing politicians to such positions.
Yea. Your parents helped you out, that's true. But the source of the problem is still the whole bullying/conformity issue. It helps to have great parents but great parents don't necessarily stop the bullying from tormenting you till you snap.
It was around 50 years ago. But the media that we have today wasn't around to bring it to the masses to hear about. Are you trying to tell me there wasn't bullying and young teens committing suicide 50 years ago? If you say that there wasn't, you're seriously dillusional.
Children need to be taught the difference between fantasy and reality.????????
It is you who needs to be taught the difference between fantasy and reality, Christian-boy.
Peer pressure and non-conformity have almost everything to do with negative effect on young children and teenagers. Period.
UltraBot2k1 is half right the problem really is parents who are disconnected from their children's lives. As the father of two I am always suprised by the disinterest my children's classmates parents show toward them. Too often in our society children are looked upon as accessories for the couple that has everything. They ferry them to daycare, school or soccor practice, they show up award ceremonies but are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary for raising a healthy child. In a society a affluent as the US there should be no reason that so many households have both parents working outside the home. But in the end parents today are more concerned with having a new car or a bigger house than there childrens well being. Morals are necessary but not exclusivly Christian morals. My kids are raised in an enviroment were they are exposed to ideas from Christianity, Judaism, Buddhaism, Taoism, and Islam and they are the best behaved most moral kids I know. (Sorry Hindus I don't feel I have the depth of knowledge to educate them on your religion)
"Technology.....the knack of so arranging the world that we don't have to experience it." Max Firsch
I wish this were true because it would make it easier to excuse the the neglect that passes for parenting these days. But if you took a hard look at the kids in daycares around the country I bet you would find that most of their parents could get by on one income.
Unfortunately this would take sacrifices that most Americans seem unwilling to make. Instead of a 3000 sq. ft. house you get a 2000, instead of two new cars you have 1 used one, and god forbid you sacrifice DSL for dial-up.
"Technology.....the knack of so arranging the world that we don't have to experience it." Max Firsch
You've hit the nail right on the head. While America leads the western world in gun deaths we also lead it in stranglations, bludgeonings, and knivings. Americans just love to kill each other sad, but true.
"Technology.....the knack of so arranging the world that we don't have to experience it." Max Firsch
Has anyone studied abnormal adolescent psychology? I don't care if you have a psych degree. This is a waste of time to put your opinions on this board if you don't work with others in that mental state! mod down to neg, please! Get back to work.
Acually.. America after the Civil War was the highest rate of guns to citizens ever in recorded history. There where by some estimates 3 guns for every man, woman, and child in the states. Granted, these where not semi auto's and such, but they where out there. (It was so bad infact that several gun makers went out of buisness because of the lack of gun sales after the war)
Guess what, folks? You pay a teacher $18,500 a year, do you think they're going to care? No, they're not. They're going to leave that classroom, get in their 10-year-old Ford Escort and drive across town to their second job so they can pay the rent/mortgage/whatever that month.
*TROLL ALERT* Well, you are only half-right. Most teachers really do or did give a hoot, until they got burned out teaching 50 kids in a classroom with parents that are too busy holding down two jobs to make the payments on their Lincoln Navigators.
If the husband would stay home, do consulting or someother job so they could spend some more time with their kids, we teachers would have a better job, teaching johnny or susie, instead of worrying about them bringing a Glock into the classroom.
Personally, I don't think America really gives a damn about their youth, and now America is paying the price.
FINALLY we are getting some discussion about school problems that teachers knew about ten years ago, but noone would listen.
Don't gripe about the Air Force B-1 bombers being made, you voted these people into office that neglected paying teachers more than $25,000 (average in arizona) salary.
The major advantage of a large school is that it offers many different courses and curriculums.
However, as a former public school teacher, I believe that it's MUCH more important to have small classrooms, with no more than 20 students (less the better) to get to know each student.
I was your typical nerdy sensitive kid and of course went through that whole "I want to kill myself" phase. I remember one day that somehow my suicidal fantasies got out and I was in class and the teacher asked me some question and one of the bullies piped up and said "don't ask him, he'll kill himself!" and everybody, including the teacher, had a great laugh at my expense.
Life in public schools was vicious and cruel back then and its gotten worse now. The administrators operate the schools almost like prisons now. My teenage step-daughter -- she tells me how they basically lock all the doors except for one which is guarded during lunch time. They literally draw those metal curtains across areas outside of the cafeteria to herd the kids together.
It's getting so weird. No, video games are certainly not to blame and we all know that. I find these acts of random violence completely staggering and incomprehensible, yet at the same time, remembering how I felt back in those troubled days of teenage youth, I think I can identify and understand where these kids that do these things are at mentally and emotionally.
--
$ chown -R us:us yourbase
As an ER nurse in a large southern city, I get a lot of questions about the shootings that we see on a weekly basis, which, frankly, are few and far between compared to the suicide attempts that are brought to us. But it's the dramatic injuries and crimes that catch the news. I've told friends (and foes) several times that gun violence, while a terrible thing, just isn't spectre that the media makes it out to be. People as a general rule would much rather remove themselves from a bad situation, than make it worse for themselves by using violent means. This revelation may come a a surprise to some of the testosterone poisoned boys here, who may want to be pigheaded and fight anyone who pisses them off, but most everyone else knows this to probably be true. Violence is, and should be, the last result of any unpleasant dealings with others. I've said for years that it's not the video games, or popular entertainment, or gun ownership that causes these outbursts that make the front pages (much to the chagrin of my VERY liberal educated wife); it's the fact that people aren't taught to be decent to each other anymore. It's nice to see a rational argument for something other than banning video ganes, and taking our guns away, and try to get to the real root of the problem of the loss of our children.
Memes don't exist. Tell your friends.
Fear. Doubt. Loneliness. These really do lead to the dark side. They lead to despair, anger, and hatred. Violence is only a short step away. The means of violence are ubiquitous.
Where do we learn our worth? First and foremost, from our parents (or parent surrogates). Why? Because they have the first opportunity. If they fail, we may later learn our worth from a friend, mentor, pastor, or lover, but the odds of success drop off very fast.
So what can we do to fix this gaping hole in our society and culture? Love somebody. Love a kid. Love somebody who has a kid. Love somebody who wasn't loved enough as a kid. Do at least one nice thing, one random act of kindness, for someone today.
Then do another one tomorrow. We can debate the long term sociologic strategies at our leisure. Meanwhile, let's start right now doing something no one opposes and that we know will help.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
At any rate, let me try a little translation of your original post.
Is that anything similar to what you had in mind? If so, I will (i) grant that your original was more artfully phrased than my translation, but (ii) suggest that it also still pretty hard to read and understand."We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
It may be no more than that the failures are so spectacular. For instance, death is sad, but death of a child is a tragedy. Surely, this is because the child is seen to have so much unrealized potential. The death of an elder is, eventually, expected.
Similarly, a "worst offender" may often be considered "worst" because, in addition to murder (or suicide or bullying or whatever the act in question), this offender has also committed betrayal and, perhaps, hypocrisy. It may be that we call such offenders "worst" because of the unrealized potential for good that has turned to evil.
Of course, other explanations exist. Perhaps the adherents of such philosophies decry the fallen offender all the louder to prove that they are not like him. Perhaps the opponents of such philosophies decry the offender to score political points. Or, perhaps, the person who falls from the greatest height falls not merely furthest, but also to the deepest abyss.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
I just wish people would take more time to look at both sides of the issue than just irrationally shouting "Guns BAAAD" all the time
If god had intended you to be naked, you would have been born that way.
Did you bother clicking on the link I provided? Guns stop a lot more crimes than most people realize - you need to start getting your information on guns from more places than Handgun Control Inc. Personally, I don't have a gun. I live in a decent neighborhood, and additionally, I look almost as crazy as I sound, so miscreants leave me alone. That said, I know that there are people who don't live in as good of a neighborhood as I do, who need protection from the crack-crazed idiot down the street. I've read the anti-gun hysteria, and it would probably do you a world of good to look at the other side of the issue as well.
If god had intended you to be naked, you would have been born that way.
The Bible is pretty clear about saying all other religions are abominations. It's one of my biggest beefs with it.
--
fifth sigma, inc.
Many of these children who go on shooting sprees are also on Ritalin or other similar drugs. There is an attitude that parents and teachers have now that if they can't handle the child, they can just drug them into Ritalin zombies. To me, this seems like just putting your thumb over a bottle of pop and shaking it up; you will keep that pop contained for a while, but eventually you have to let go, and then you've got a big mess. Many parents today also beleive that they can just send their kids to school and that is the magic elixir that will turn them into upstanding citizens. That is dead wrong !! Teachers cannot do everything for these children. I know a teacher who has to let a child in her class sleep for an hour a day, or else the child cannot function. The parents let the child sit up all night watching TV, drinking Coca-Cola, so tht when it comes time for school, the kid just can't function. This is only a second-grader !! This child needs guidance and rules, not total freedom. The teachers are so over-worked and underpaid that I sympathize with them and can understand where they come from when the recommend that a child is put on Ritalin. They can't be both a mother, father and teacher to all of these children, but this practice of drugging our children has to stop ! Many states are requiring stringent requirements for teachers, but parents never seem to be held accountable. It's always TV, movies or video games that are blamed, but being a parent is like being a military leader. You are resonsible for those in your command. Too many parents forget that and just blame everyone else.
It seems to me alot of this has to do with social economic backgrounds. There have been very few if any shootings ing the south were there is the greatest access to guns, why maybe becuase the kids are taught how to use a gun and what it is for. And it also seem that not all the time but a mojority of of the schools where the shootings take place are upper middle class/upper class. I have noticed though my times of being in public school and having friends in private schools (Not bringing the public vs private debate up just that private school have richer kids inrolled) that the more wealthy kids tend to have a slightly skewed view of consiquences(publik school remember) For an extreme point look at OJ. If the kids believe there is a slight chance they can get away with something they will try. The superman complex is strong with these kids. I dont mean to sound like a broken reocrd but parents have alot to do with this take a college psyc class and you will understand. Bullies are in essence the cause, but I like many of fantasized of kicking thier asses or in extreme killing them but we all had the good sense to keep the ideas in our heads.
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
Teasing is natural selection. It's always been around. In fact, I bet a sociologist could argue that there's less brutality now than 100 years ago.
Possible. I think, some time after the Columbine Incident I read an article that stated that American kids already shot each other in school as early as in the 1920s. They even said that, statistically, it wouldn't happen more often today than it happened fifty years ago.
So, this is a good question:
what has changed?
I personally think it's the media coverage that is different today. What was only worth a big newspaper article in local press back in the 1950s, nowadays becomes CNNs main feature for a whole week.
I don't really know if this is a good thing, since, again and again I only see a BIG discussion arising in the US, all kinds of nearly innocent stuff (like videogames) being blamed, but the only really obvious measure of switching to European-style gun-control simply isn't taken.
Why isn't anybody wondering why such things simply don't happen over here?
I agree with funkman here,
it isn't the internet, the games or the tv that makes teens shoot themselves, its everything all together.
Internet, Video Games, Movies, Parents, Race, Religion, put them all here.
But mostly I'd say that one thing that has changed a bit a did not really helped is the freedom, we're a lot more free that what young people use to be, parents are less restrictive, god does not have the upper hand on people anymore.
We're more in a live & let live society. So we don't tend to tolerate something too long simply because we believe we don't have to.
I laugh everytime I see a parent refuse his child play Unreal Tournament for example when on the other he lets him go on the street where he can see (and experience) a potentially much higher level of violence and a much more meaningful with that.
Truth is, I don't know if there's any real solution to stop this violence epidemy, it sure would help if parents would start getting involved seriously but they can't all do that, they've got work to do, some of them simply don't want to...etc.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Great point! It is assault and battery to physically harm someone, but inside the schools it seems to disappear. The worst a kid will get for tormenting a kid is minimal, a detention/maybe even suspension? Like that matters! Hell give me a day off work for making fun of a coworker, I might make it a habit!! And a kid beats another kid up and the worst he can get, if someone brings the cops into it and presses charges, is some probation, maybe even community service. Let the little fucks spend a night in a detention hall, or do a weekend at a juvie facility, lets see if that opens some eyes? Or will that just further the ignorant bastard into becoming a worst problem and teach him how to be a possibly better criminal? That was a hell of a point though, 18 and up will spend the night in jail, at the least, yet kids get nothing that would seriously make them think about what they did. Maybe all the geeks should start playing baseball, at least then they can carry a bat to fight back with:)
$crew u guyz i'm going....shit i already am home
so get the fuck out!!
I have been waiting for years to see someone pull their head far enough out of their own tight ass to see what really is going on. I grew up in a small town, 4600 people, and this is exactly what happens everyday. In all grades of school this tormenting and bullying (or hazing as the fuckheads that ran the school liked to call it) goes on everyday in this town. We recently had a kid call in a threat to bring a gun to school because of a recent fight and the torments that led up to it. Violence in games and movies has just a desensitizing effect, no more does a violent game make a kid want to kill another person than the recent article on here about the anti aborton website promoting the death of doctors who do abortions. Why try and blame it on everything but the real problem? It is the fucked up society we live in that encourages the jocks to be cool and pick on the weak. Survival of the fittest is for the animals, not for people with actual feelings and at that young of an age, can't shrug it off and say fuck it. This type of torment in school molds that child for the rest of their life. Some deal with it in a positive way that makes them a stronger person, but for those who can't do that, it breaks them down to nothing. They feel like less of a person because they are not in the in crowd, don't hang with the cool kids, and miss an education because of the fuckheads around them trying to be cool. And I love the response "ignore them," there are some things that can't be ignored. Being labeled as something sometimes can have an effect on a child to the point that they start believing it. Look at how many little teenage whores we have now! Is that because kids are watching porno all the time? I doubt it! Could it be because the sexual intimacy fills a void in their life? Wake up parents and officials, this is obviously a problem. Interesting enough though, we can shelter our children from the sex and violence in games and tv, but let them go to school and they will learn, experiment, and try things unimaginable to most parents! I could rant about this on and on. This is exactly the problem that needs addressed! The little snot nose punk that shits on your kids day because he has a funny name, or does different shit. Lets not let our kids be pushed over the edge anymore, lets stop it before it gets that far. Put some legislation in place that can fight back on the bullies legally! Or would we rather keep this trend up and have a world full of counselors and therapy being the only way to sort out your fucked up childhood? Children absorb everything, they are a blank slate being wrote on daily. I hope this article and all posts can be mailed to every political official available, and maybe if it is pushed in their face enough, someone might actually care. For every dead child we lose one more great thing.
$crew u guyz i'm going....shit i already am home
so get the fuck out!!
--
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
As interesting as what I saw was what I didn't see. There was nothing on the infant's diet (the mother was referred to as nursing). No reference to coffee creamer. No reference to neglect, abuse or malfeasance charges against the mother or supervisors at the group home. Why? Because they've already been through the courts, I'll bet. If it was that bad, there would be equivalent hype about their charges being dismissed.
--
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Admittedly, the iron-ore crap isn't Swedens finest hour, but I still stand by the policy of our neutrality. That neutrality, and the iron-ore, allowed us to be one of the few safe-havens for jews and other persecuted peoples from Nazi controlled areas. Don't forget, we also allowed all sorts of Allied operations over our soil.
What is really baffling for me, as a European (though I have lived in a lot of different countries), is how Americans don't connect the proliferation of firearms with violence and crime rates.
At worst, your average pissed off kid here in Sweden can punch someones teeth out. In the US, the same kid would borrow daddy's gun and go on a rampage!
Can you truly have a discussion about School violence without adressing the issue of firearms?
Wise up people!
I was bullied all thru elementary and middle school.. I was in private schools with under 100 kids all my life. Luckily,
#1, my parents used every last resource they had to put my sister and I in a private school.
#2. My mother had a very active role as a parent.
My mother is a testament to good parenting. I've had 3 stepdads, been to 8 different schools before I was 13, each school I went to, I was picked on incessantly and I didn't go balistic even once. I really felt like it but I knew that my mother loved me and that my tormentors would not be my tormentors forever.
I think that the best thing we can do for the kids is to regulate the number of children that a woman can have.. I say, after a woman has born a child, "fix" the mother AND the father. This may sound harsh but, think of all the good it would do. It would hamper the "players" who f**k em and forget em. This would give more kids an actual father. It would hamper the women who have 10 kids for the welfare check (or tax break). This would make it way easier for a parent to focus on his child. Also, mandatory parenting classes would be a great help.
I see this thug mentality, violence, and lack of morals mainly in under-privelaged children. These kids come from homes with no money. These homes can't afford to properly raise 1 child let alone the 10 that Maw keeps poppin' out. This is why there is so much violence in the inner city. Kids are not payed any attention, they join gangs, have no morals, and end up killing someone or dieing themselves.
We can't control what the parents do with their children but, we can certainly promote a good parenting-friendly environment.
if they try others they are arrested for threating people
- bullied all his lifeUS high schools are crucibles that grind students into conformity.
Students who are different are bullied mercilessly. I'd wager that most of them have at one time considered extreme violence as a way to avenge themselves. Fortunately, few have actually carried out their thoughts.
Some assimilate into the collective blandness, others find a place where individuality is respected.
Those who neither conform or escape often go on to greatness, achieving fame as well as the ability to sneer at the high school bully - now employed as a 7-11 cashier.
A few smart people go over the edge. The kids who killed in Colombine were certainlt intelligent. One of the most interesting/horrifying things about Colombine was listening to the football players and cheerleaders talk about how they picked on other kids because they weren't like themselves.
American high schools should not become minimum security prisons, but they shouldn't be places where child abuse (albeit by other children) is tolerated, either.
[Insert the usual disclaimer here]
I really wish you guys would grow up and stop using the "Right to Bear Arms" boloney as an excuse. Just own up - you like having guns.
You are a U.S. citizen, thus the notion of making any kind of sacrifice of your personal freedom for the good of others is utterly alien. Even if it could be unequivocally proved that gun ownership was a bad thing for society in general you would still harp on about the Constitution and fight to the bitter end.
Based on your logic, I'll be starting a movement to bring back the "Right to Burn Catholics and Royalists at the Stake" in the UK, since they were a threat to our democracy in 1643.
The last thing the U.S. needs is another pretext for suing and more lawyers. I can just see the adds.. "If you have been a victim of personal injury, dog bites, Jimmy next door making fun of your new sneakers.. call me Scheister Lawyer..." People here need to grow up and stop taking everyone to court - it's one of the major problems in your society.
What I see here is a culture of self-obsession, violence and of bullying.
Gun owners won't give up guns.
"It's my right, my freedom and by golly I don't care if those kids got shot because guns are freely available, I'm keeping mine."
The U.S. is the world bully.
It has Mexicans and Haitians doing its bidding here on slave wages. It steals valuable resources from 3rd world countries ( with the collusion of the elite in those countries ) - I am thinking specifically of oil in Latin America. It exploits workers across the globe. It stamps all over local culture foisting McDonalds, Coke, Blockbuster upon the gullible. It tries to dictate to everyone and will not accept an alternative world view. The basic ethos here would be "If your bigger, tougher and can get away with, go right ahead.."
I also wonder if part of the problem is not that the kids who commit suicide or commit school shootings are not also totally self obsessed. I am not wanting to blame the individual kids just question whether the prevailing mindset contributes to their unhappiness. Sometimes life sucks and its better not to dwell on it too much.
Somewhere between the Japanese capitulation to the good of the collective and the unbridled individualism of the U.S. there lies a balance.
However, the culture is what makes America great in its own rather sick way - I don't know if Americans would be willing to change.
Yes you are right, people here who don't carry guns are subject to the intimidation of knowing that the irritating nut at the next table may be packing a Glock, so they'd better just hunker down and ignore his boorish behaviour.
That's freedom US style - 1% Guns'n'Ammo boneheads free to purchase hand guns, 99% free to worry about it.
But I hate when people think a single data point is valid almost as much I hate that many think that correlation implies causation.
So my question is what were the choices in the 'Gallup' poll? If someone calls you to do a survey and your options for answers are minimal, shouldn't we look closely at the 'other' catagory answers?
81% seems like a lot but if you're calling and surveying folks who A) don't own a computer and B) don't have adolscent children - the sample is totally useless.
been dead for years, just haven't stopped moving yet...
When I was growing up, kids had other things to worry about such being drafted into an unpopular war, global thermonuclear war, and perpetual inflation and recession. From this standpoint, the 1990s would seem to be a paradise for young people, yet they are more worried than ever. Now you have to worry whther the kid next to you in class will shoot you dead.
The unconcious mind knows no difference between something that is plays during Quake III or something it does in real life. All mammals use play to learn the skills that they will need in real life. Their unconcious mind buisilly builds the needed neural structures learned during the playing. The same is with humans. This is no problem for the majority of us, like me. However, it is a problem for the few kids who have screwed up home lives. They look inside and look for something to do about the way they are treated at school, and all their rage points to their training to kill. However, we must look at what is different in other countries other than the US, where it doesn't happen. Japan for instance. First of all, they consider it much worse a crisis to be incarcerated than we do in America. I believe that the true problem is the easy access of guns to a brain dead society, and the lack of a moral base.
"Beer is the answer. I don't remember the question." -- from the fortune files
It seems that there are some kids who have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality. The media is very quick to confirm this. However the media only looks at one side of the story.
The last time I saw a "news" story about a school shooting on one of the national tv networks, they had said that the kids who have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality are the ones who bring guns to school.
I agree that what I heard in that "news" story could have been a posibilty, there is one that they didn't say. The kids who are picking on other kids probably watch tv and play video games too. Has it ever occurred to anyone that the bully might also have trouble telling the difference between fantasy and reality? Maybe the bully watches a tv show where someone harasses another person for fun. Then that bully thinks that if he does the same, then he will also have fun.
I think the real truth is that there is no one person, tv show, video game, or company to blame for all of the school shootings. It is a number of different things.
While still on the same subject, I have something else to say. If there is ever a law passed that prevents minors from playing certian video games, it wont work. Just like mp3 trading, kids playing violent video wont go away, ever...
those are my 2 cents
"the fax machine is nothing but a waffle iron with a phone attached to it." - Grandpa Simpson
Additionally, you might want to consider taking this to class. Just the other day, we were discussing bullying in Japan, and suicides there are very common, too. I'm taking this to class next time; discussion leads to awareness, hopefully awareness leads to prevention.
But that's not what Christianity teaches! Your sins have been paid for, and nothing can change that. Christians are supposed to limit their actions in obedience to (and in celebration of) God's will, not because they will go to hell if they don't. Not exactly the straightforward answer you suppose.
Take the secular argument to its logical conclusion and you'll find that there is really no reason not to sin outside of belief in God. Don't you guys read Nietzsche in school anymore?
Hmmm...I focused on Christianity because I believe it is different. Besides, the post that started this thread talked about Christian values, not simply religious ones.
Your second point neatly buttresses my argument - if your sins are paid for, then why adhere to a moral standard? Christianity answers this postulate. This is quite different than what you originally said - that religion is a simplistic injunction to believers - don't sin or you'll go to hell. And, why not stray into the particulars of one religion? Why frame your discourse in banal generalities?
If you want to talk in public about the difference between morals and religion, you need to have some background in the subject. One given would be that you know something about what has gone before. Otherwise, you would simply be stating an unsupportable opinion, not reasoning. If your education didn't provide you with the basics, then perhaps you need to do so on your own.
I agree with the argument about peers, but I think the core of it all stems from lack of parental involvement in kid's lives. If the parents actually took the time to get to know their kids and love them, then they would have a pretty good idea of what their kid needs and what he/she is going through. Without a loving, moral household to grow up in, our kids are forced to seek out that love and attention through their peers, which leads to the points you raised above. I wasn't a popular kid in school, and I was teased and made fun of for some things, but when I went home I was always loved and cared for, and what I said or thought was important. That, more than anything, helped me deal with the hard time I was given in school, because I knew that they were being crass and shallow. This is just my opinion, but I'm sick of the media and anyone else that talks about "the plight of our youth" ignoring the first line of defense, the parents.
Allegedly?
OK, I realize this is just journalistic autopilot and please-don't-sue-me-speak here, but there is something very wrong going on. I would think that if someone shoots 15 people, killing two of them, in a public place, and is then arrested by police you could be pretty much certain what actuallly happened, rather than what has been alleged to happen.
Now what does it matter what word we use? Well take a look at some of the drug laws (and soon probably other laws as well) that essentially make it a crime to be suspected of wrongdoing. I believe this is related to the blatent journalistic wording such as is present in this article. Just think about it. Charles Andrew Williams allegedly shot 15 people. Soon, someone makes a law to punish alleged school shooters. Or perhaps to punish potential criminals who are alleged players of video games. You see my point? This attitude of "they're criminals, they don't deserve any rights" has gotten well out of hand when we begin treating people as criminals who are merely alleged of commiting a crime (as compared with people like Charles Andrew Williams, who most certainly did).
A very provocative article has appeared on the web discussing the relationship of the particular form of violence we're seeing now (the mass shooting) and race. See wise's piece at www.alternet.org
NT=No text
I totally agree with the "Bullying doesn't cause killer kids" comment. When is it that people (especially parents) are going to start taking responsibility for their actions? It really irks me when people blame stuff like this on videogames, music, movies, etc... There are many contributors to violence, bullying may be one of them, but true parenting can be a solution to all of them. Parents need to be involved in their childrens lives so that they can see the warning signs!
sammmy baby raises a good point also. Parental involement. My parents taught me similarly, to take what other said with a grain of salt. Most kids pick on other cuz they are jealous. I was picked on and also had the problem of always being the new kid because my father is in the military, thus we where always moving somewhere new. I think if more parents where involved in their kids lives and cared more, kids would be learning the difference between reality and TV/video games/movies. I know of parents who's idea of taking care of the kid is giving their 5-8 year old a bowl of mac and cheese and setting them down in front of Die Hard movies. How are these kids ever going to learn the difference between those overly violent movies and reality if the parent never teach them. The role of Caring parents is being shoved off into the schools so the parents don't have to care. Someone else will to that for me. Congress has made it imposible to do this job that parents refuse to do by allowing the teachers/school officials to only discipline by kicking them out of school. They don't go home and get any sort of discipline from their parents, instead they go play video games and watch movies. The parents sometimes don't even know that their kid got suspended or sent home, and when they do most don't care or blame the lack of behavioral limits and discipline on the school, who is forbiden to discipline. Viscious circle!!! Any school person who goes against this is then sued by the parents for inflicting phycalogical harm on the kid by the same parents who set no limits. To put it in fewer words: It is not the media/games/movies but the parents fault!!!
I'm sorry but I played Doom so much and Linkin Park. They made me do it. I was the man on the grassy knowl. If only I never had played Doom I would have never done it. If you didn't catch the Linkin Park comment they were recently blamed for a school shooting for those of you who don't keep up on music news.
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
From the Government of British Columbia web site: NEW SAFE TOGETHER WEB SITE HELPS PREVENT BULLYING
www.safetogether.ca
Thanks a lot for the kind words. "Hook" is one of my favorite "family movies", so I know exactly what you're talking about here. It's sort of a black and white, lucid look at how a successful man can be an unsuccessful parent. But luckily he learned his lesson in the end. I doubt society ever will learn the lesson. I posted various versions of what I posted here to all the magazines, and it never got responses, or was ever posted in the letters to the editor section. In this day and age, very few actually want the responsibility of caring for their children. And the suburban migration is just the tip of the iceberg here. I am sure there are other factors here, but I havent figured it out yet Again, thanks for the post :)
-- K.C. das
Krsnacandra dasa http://cie.spleens.net
I am responding to Jon Katz's "Are Kids Turning Your Kids Into Killers?" Although it was well-meaning, in that the article endeavored to make sense out of what just happened in Santee a few weeks ago, it ultimately failed to be bold enough to point the finger at why our nation's youth, seems to be in increasingly greater danger than ever before. I have asked some of my older friends (most over 50) about this situation, and they have all told me that guns were much more readily available a few decades ago than they are now. Thus, there is this new mystery as to why there are more violent juvenile crimes occuring now. The answer is quite simple, actually. After the final so-called "Great Migration", from City to Suburbs, the extended family was completely abandoned. No longer did we have this family network that spanned generations. Instead, mother, father, and children, are now doing the best that they can on their own. Add this factor to the higher incidents of divorce and isolation from within the family, as well as having both parents working full-time, and you are left with children who are often left to raise themselves, de facto orphans, if you will. The suburbs themselves are not the healthiest environment to raise a child. We are seperated from one another via tall picket fences, and an automobile is almost always needed to go anywhere of interest. Children can quite easily be isolated like prisoners in cells in this type of environment. This can cause reactions such as the Santee or Columbine incident, or it can be the cause of many suicides, something Mr. Katz mentions in his article. Without the firm, loving support of multiple family members, and the ability to transcend the many isolating obstacles of suburban living, I see our nation's children as being in great peril unless they just happened to be in that "in crowd" at school. Growing up in the suburbs, and being "different" from the other children, I was not privy to this "in crowd", and was often picked on by classmates. Had I not had a small but wonderful core group of friends, a loving, supportive extended family, and a spiritually secure self-concept, I would imagine that my childhood would have been horribly depressing and unbearable. The bottom line: if you made the decision to become a parent some years ago, you have the iron-clad responsibility to provide for your children, both financially, as well as emotionally.
Krsnacandra dasa http://cie.spleens.net
I agree with Katz that it's the tormentors that cause kids to kill each other.I feel sympathy towards those kids that kill and for that people look at me as if I'm sick or crazy.You can't blame society's mistakes on games,movies,the Internet,and other media,we only have our selves to blame.Kids are ridiculed because they do not conform and then they are bullied and that bullying only leads to a destruction of their humanity which then drives them to kill.I also agree that the media only shows the killings of kids by other kids but never when a kid kills themself.They are so eager to show massacres and show how bad they are but never the kind of pain the killers knew.They were wrong in their decision to kill but don't they at least deserve a little of our sympathy?
Justine
"Heathers" seems to have gotten both of us through a bad time.
Perhaps the imagination of the filmmakers in this case actually *prevented* violence.
In my case, I took martial arts and anatomy. When I knew six ways to kill someone quickly, it became and remains much easier to be polite.
However, I remain antisocial - I own my own law firm.
Yet Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
Something appears to wrong with studies that correlate video games and cartoons with behaviour.
Well I have a new approach. Anyone who sums up the problem as having one single identifiable root cause, or offers one single, simple answer to it, I will ignore with prejudice.
"Well they didn't have religion." "Well they didn't have parents." "Well they were bullied." "Well their hearts turned dark because of the Internet." "Well they weren't spanked." "Well they listened to Eminem." "Well there are so many guns around." "Well they were medicated." "Well they watched Hollywood movies." "Well their complaints were ignored." "Well they were mentally ill." "Well kids these days have it TOO easy." "Well they played video games." "Well they listened to Marilyn Manson." "Well this is a violent society." No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The only single answer that I will accept is: PROBABILITY. Given the number of students in schools and the number of combinations of, well hell, ALL of the above, once in a while one or two of em will freak out and start killing everybody.
So why don't we SEPARATE the "kids killing kids" problem from the bullying problem, because even if there are no school shootings, I should hope bullying would remain a concern.
Note that he said "traditional christian morals", not beliefs. UltraBot2K1 could have meant the morals that christianity (supposedly teaches). I have no problem with this. I'm an athiest (I guess), but I have a set of morals that roughly corresponds to christian morals. Don't steal, don't lie, don't kill people, be nice to people, forgive people, etc. I disagree with any bible bashing or religious dick-size wars, but I do not agree with teaching people (kids or just people in general) to have a good set of morals.
... "traditional (insert religion here) morality" as a need for children, it really does nothing. it might keep kids from killing, but think of it this way - the most christian people in my school were the most cruel to me, and the hindi and agnostic kids were the most tolerant of me.
I think that there are bad people in either way. I've met some really awsome christians that I would gladly trust my life, children, and possessions with. I've also met some that I haven't even wanted to stay in the same room with. Same with non-christians. Same with people with black skin, red skin, yellow skin, and white skin. I think that anyone of any race or creed or religious belief can be a total ass, or a great person. I'm not discounting your experiences of course, but I think that people can go either way.
Speaking as a Wiccan, I can tell you that I've had pleanty of Christians quote from the bible about why they would be morally right if they killed me. Something about Lividicous "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" sends chills down the spines of any Wiccan. There is the popularized WASP version of what it means to be a Christian, and then there is the fundamentalist and literal version of what it means to be a Christian. The latter is not nice at all.
I wonder how many Christians have actually read the entire bible and considered what it really has to say about other religions if taken literally.
Merry Meet, Merry Part and Merry Meet Again.
Python
Python
The bit about daycare and kids learning to socialize by the law of the jungle, I think you're stretching it.
And also the bit about "the me generation". Every "generation" as a group, tries to characterize itself as somehow different and better than the preceeding and following generations. Human nature. Duh. "my homeez is better dan your homeez". They're no different than any other humans.
However, the general overall trend of this industrialized society is, from large families with dozens of kids, where individuals are less valued than the family, towards families with fewer and fewer kids, greater competition for industrial and service industry jobs, and therefore, more intrusion into time that would otherwise be spent socializing kids for the group. Part of that is the demands of life in this age, and part of it is declining fertility rates. We don't know what causes that yet. The large family, etc. Now, individualism becomes more and more a factor, which in of itself is not a bad thing - it's the lack of guidance in that individualistic leaning, I think, that's a bad thing. And it's simply a side effect of industrialization.
Fewer kids do mean that the parents have less kids to divide their attention upon, but sometimes that means that they have more time to spend on their own pursuits, like their careers. And competition in the labor market drives that to extremes. Making matters worse, parents often compensate materially. That is, they take their stock options, cash them in, and buy their only child a pony. Spoiled fucking little brats.
Another BAD factor, in my opinion, is when people wait until they're 40 to start having kids. How is a 50 year old going to identify with a 10 year old? Or a 55 year old with a 15 year old? I personally think it should be a crime to have a kid after age 30. How are these kids going to develop the emotional skills to deal with situations like, that kid over there stole my legos and scratched me? TV? And the kids don't have as many brothers and sisters to identify with, or learn from. Who can they commiserate with? A 45 year old?
Then, when this little individual begins to join society, and is asked to conform, if they can't or won't, the wolfpack chases them out. How the fuck do you think they're going to deal with it?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
No, the popular jocks just date rape their girlfriends.
Or did we all forget that one of the jocks at Columbine was involved in a situation where he raped his gf, and when she went to the authorities, they tried to hush it up, and offer her "early graduation" because they didn't want to lose their football star?
This isn't about a few sick kids, or social hierarchies and conformity. It's about a sick system. Fitness and teamwork are important concepts, but they should NEVER be above or at the expense of an academic or intellectual focus at a SCHOOL.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
they make that choice when they tease another kid. It may not have been obvious a few years ago, but it should be obvious now; if you tease that scrawny geek, you take the risk that he's going to come back with a gun and pop a cap in your brain pan.
It is now a stated and obvious risk. When one child teases another, they are taking that risk. It's just a fact. Not a threat.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I live in Kansas, and I'm homeschooling my kid so I can teach him about evolution and cosmology, and he won't have to learn about that creationism bullcrap!
(warning: This is a test of the emergency trollcasting system. If this had been an actual troll, it would have been a little more subtle, and from an account that has not previously been associated with pro-religious rants)
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
not every fulltime housewife wants to be a good parent either. My mother-in-law is perfect proof of that.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
In fact, one of the school shootings a few years back was a kid who felt harassed by the Christian prayer group in his school. They told him that because he didn't join them, he would burn in hell.
Left with no hope, he decided to take them with him.
Some (most) Christians just don't "get it".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
yes, go home, or to your privately funded church and worship freely.
Do not take MY tax dollars, and spend it on your twisted fucked up perverted interpretation of Christianity.
Or how about this: "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's."
That is a quote from the dude himself, saying that you should give to God from your money BEFORE taxes. Your Taxes are money that belongs to Ceasar. So tithe from your gross, get a healthy good private school and church going. Don't give money to God that was rightfully Ceasar's. God doesn't fucking want or need it.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Every time one of these teased kids goes postal, it enforces the notion;
"an armed society is a polite society"
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I'm working on it. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
if you open up the definition further, "arms" can be economic. or even laws.
Imagine that #43 signs a law that relaxes the amount of MTBE that is allowed in drinking water by 500 parts per million, and as a result, one additional person each year, statistically, will die.
Now imagine that the law was not signed, and that the chemical company that made MTBE had to shut down operations because cleaning up the enviornment was too costly for them to pursue MTBE production, and 50 families were unemployed, and statistically, that means that two of these guys were going to die robbing a liquor store in an attempt to make their house payment.
Why can't I keep and bear THOSE arms?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I drew cartoons of the people I hated getting killed by fiendishly ingenious devices.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
oh shut the fuck up!
Name one AGE of human history where life was revered and respected. Stop kidding yourself. Society and civilization is an illusion we all try to pull off to forget about the law of the jungle. But no matter how much of it we pave over, the jungle remains. No biblical scripture, no laws, no touchy-feely talk will EVER change that one fact of reality. Get over it.
We can as individuals, try to act civilized and pretend we give a damn what happens to our neighbors, but the societal problem as a whole is not going to change because you wish we all cared.
When I was in HS back in the 70's the solution was not to go on a killing spree, but killing sprees happened, and have happened since time immemorial. The newsmedias coverage may have made it more common and frequent, but the root cause remains the same. The solution when I was in HS, was not to go on a killing spree, but ask anyone who was in this situation back then and most of them will tell you that they thought about it. Fantasized about it. Wrote about it. Drew cartoons about it. It's hard to judge a life as sacred and revered when you're treated as a subhuman for no other reason than you think for yourself. Why not read the hundreds of posts here supporting these points? Moron.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I hate that my kid's best freind is a lying little spoiled punk, and that I am more of a parent to him than his parents are. Fucking pisses me off when rich people have kids because it was on their list of things to do.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You must be British!
Yup! It's a subversive attempt to make Americans' teeth look as bad as the Brits'!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
unfortunately, not every kid is going to have the emotional skills to deal with that.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Well, perhaps these kids are just out of control because they have too many bad thetans? Bring your troubled teens (and checkbooks) to our Church, (TM) and we'll apply some of our special techniques to rid them of these bad thetans, so they can get on the path towards being "clear", as the great genius L. Ron taught us!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It is a complicated problem and it might even be one that cannot be solved today or even ever.
Thank you -- that's absolutely right. It's so frustrating to see most people try to oversimplify the issue and forget that we're really dealing with people. People that need to feel like they belong. People that need to feel valued by others. And this cannot be accomplished by a simply structural change.
Remove the guns -- the bullying will still be there
Abolish the games -- the agression will continue
Sanitize the movies -- they'll just find other things to do
Indoctrinate with <insert moral code here> -- they might feel a little more guilty as they do it
If we want to deal with these issues, we need to dig beyond the superficial structural factors so we can expose and fix the cultural attitudes that foster this behavior. We can only deal with these issues by changing the village attitudes.
A root of the problem is the village attitude that a person's value to me (or society) depends solely on what I (or society) can get out of them. This crops up way too often. You see it in families where the parents' affection depends on how proud their kids make them. You see it in marriages that are based mainly on how good the spouse makes me feel. You see it in cliques where popularity depends on conformity and mutual self-congratulation. You see it in bullying, because the bully can get a sense of superiority, however fleeting. Frighteningly, you can even see it in Bush's "teacher accountability" plan, where a student's value to a teacher is defined by their score on an exam.No, I'm not saying that this is the only attitude that drives our society. However, it is far too prevalent, and especially in the United States. Somehow, it seems that the mystique of "rugged individualism" and the "self-made man" has often been defined as someone who derives all of their value from what they give to others, without having to get anything from anyone else.
The sad thing is that this attitude is so easily accepted and propagated, even in the face of the teachings most moral philosophies.
Kant has his "categorical imperative": treat every person as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end. Christianity says, "love your neighbor as yourself -- do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Buddhism... Hinduism... humanism... it seems like this is a very common teaching. So why isn't it followed? Why does it seem like the worst offenders come from moral philosophies that stress this more?
Sorry, ranting a bit there...lemme bring this back home. I'm starting to realize that the only way I can hope to see a difference is to work on my attitude towards others in my own village. Make sure I value others just because they are, not for what I can get from them. I can only hope that if I can do it, that others will be encouraged to do it as well.
I couldn't possibly agree more. My parents passed on the chance for me to skip a few years when I was younger because an advisor told them that I'd miss out on the socialization. That's just what I f'in needed: to be stuck with a bunch of mouth-breathing idiots who tortured me because I was smarter than they were. I'm so glad that I had the opportunity to be miserable for most of the formative years of my life.
My children are going to be of school age in a few years, and my wife and I are seriously considering home schooling. I couldn't care less if they don't learn how to fit in with the jackasses of the world - I have bigger dreams for them than that.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
What causes one to kill while another under the same circumstances does not?
Same reason some kids GET bullied while others ARE bullied, really - no two kids are alike.
Nature vs nurture - anyone who ever went to school and met actual people knows it's both, in varying degrees, depending on the person AND their environment. Some people never quite rise above their environment; some are born with a certain disposition and never outgrow it; some people are dynamic enough to adapt, learn, or even reverse themselves as they grow; some people are just weird and seem to develop contrary to either nature or nurture. And as I said, no two kids are alike - two genetically identical kids raised in identical families may STILL develop differing ideas about the world.
That said, I agree about outlets - and not just for the victims who may snap and go postal. Bullies and asshole school officials tend to use kids as outlets for their own inadequacies. Isn't there a better way for THEM to deal with their feelings than pushing kids around?
And last, here's a thought that just occurred to me: going postal on one's school is a form of suicide (whether they intend to point the gun selfward at the end or not). It's the point of greatest confusion, greatest desperation, and greatest anger and fear - it's the point where a violent solution is the only one simple enough to make sense. A kid who puts his brain on the chalkboard with a handgun is trying to scream in the land of the deaf - a primal yell, an attempt at making someone, anyone, look at them for one second so they can say "here's what kind of pain I'm in" (and usually "and you caused it"). An MIT-style prank (slinging cow hearts all over the lockers of known bullies for example) might work much better, but these kids have already fallen through that, reached a point where the only scenarios that make sense are the ones where they can vent their anger, on themselves or on someone else or both.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
I really don't mean to be dismissive of your argument or seem harsh, but blanket (and self-contradicting) statements like that invite blanket repudiations.
What you call a blanket statement, I call a fairly good description of the political party currently in charge of the country.
You know what I think? You aren't looking for intellectual Christians- in fact, you've reason to be afraid them. You are looking to find people who call themselves Christians yet live clearly unchristian lives so that you can call Christianity itself a religion for the weak-minded hypocrites of the world and thereby reinforce your own prejudices.
Well, since I can't very well go refer to the Book of Life and see if someone's listed or not, all I really have are their word and their actions.
Racists do the same thing by focusing their attentions not on the accomplishments of the best and brightest African-Americans (who would undermine their own prejudices) but only the most egregious failures the black people have to offer. That way, they can keep telling their friends and peers, "Man, blacks are reprobates. Did you know that 1/3 of the males are in prisons? Hey, don't call me racist man, my boss is black. I know blacks."
Then what would you have me do? For one thing, I'm not complaining about a race or people born of that race - I'm complaining about people who have chosen a particular set of beliefs that seem to make them a) forget how to exercise rational thought, b) take an us vs them attitude and begin to isolate themselves from the world, and c) consider it a GOOD thing to sweep the 1st Amendment under the rug since obviously their religion should be the official one in America. Would you have me pretend I haven't seen what I've seen, that I don't know who I know, and that the Bible doesn't say what it says? That Christianity in America isn't what it is? I'm willing to accept that you, if your beliefs are what you say they are (love for all people, tolerance of people who are different) are the good side of the issue, but I'm afraid I simply can't take your word for what the other 99% of Christians in America are.
OK, so I sound like a racist to you, substituting Christianity for race. I know what I sound like. But lemme put it to you like this: would you defend a racist? Shouldn't we both be more open minded and tolerant of other people's belief systems that differ from our own? Shouldn't we focus on the GOOD things that racists have done, like the works of Wagner, T.S. Eliot, or many of our founding fathers? No? We SHOULDN'T accept racism if we can keep from it? Hmmm.
Maybe that means there's a dividing line between the determinism that says "all belief systems must be respected" and the reality that some belief systems aren't all rosy and we're justified in complaining about them.
You're offended that I might compare Christianity to racism - that's a valid reaction, but put it away for a second. Racism sucks and is an extreme. It's a destructive force in society and it hurts people. It's rather obviously bad to most people reading this - even those who, as you say, go "hey don't call me racist" think racism is a negative thing and will try to distance themselves from it. In short, even some racists think it's bad. Do racists have the right to hold their beliefs? SHOULD they have the right to hold their beliefs? If yes, should a line be drawn between holding their beliefs and trying to exercise their beliefs? Obviously we can't get away with making it legal to go around lynching other ethnic groups, but a vocal and devout Klansman would see it differently. We know he's wrong and we're right (on the subject of racism anyway) because... well, he just is.
Back to Christianity - just HOW far afield have I gone by comparing it to racism? Are there good, intelligent people who are Christians? Yes, Don Knuth and Larry Wall are two names Slashdot readers will recognize. Many cool things have been done in the name of Christianity.
But my own take is that there's a MUCH longer list of horrible things done in the name of Christianity - many of them IN the Bible (before there was a Christianity whose name to do them in) - all of them the perpetrators apparently found justifiable biblically in spite of the Commandments they violate. (And a fine point this brings up: the holy book may say one thing, but the religion as practiced by a couple billion people worldwide tends to say something slightly different. What IS Christianity if not what people make of it?) Christianity has become the antithesis of moral and intellectual progress - whether it's being used to dismantle 150 years of science, or being used as justification to undermine the civil rights of any number of social groups (other religions, homosexuals, women), or being used to justify racism, or even becoming an excuse to declare war (the Crusades, anyone?) it's obvious that mainstream Christianity - the Christianity of record, the Christianity that America seems to want in charge, the Christianity that calls itself Christianity and from which your open-mindedness is apparently an isolated sprout - is a giant step BACKWARDS for the progress of humankind away from primitivism! I add to this what I've personally seen and experienced and I find that I am rather compelled to think Christianity is on racism's end of the spectrum. Not as bad as racism, but then, considering how often it gets used to justify racism and things far worse, how do I measure? When Christians do really cool things, it seems to be DESPITE the doctrine, direction, and momentum of the religion - it's always the radicals, the ones on the fringe of the religion, be it classical painters using religion as a sneaky way to get away with painting nudes, or Luther with paper and nail, or Mother Teresa with an interpretation of "missionary" that didn't involve destroying the native culture. Rather a strong indication that individuality plays a greater role in the ability of humans to transcend their condition, actually - and mainstream Christianity (in its various flavors) seems not to value individuality. Which sorta brings us circuitously back to the Slashdot story that started it all, the way America and its almost-theocracy treats anyone who's different.
What you think is a hidden theocracy is instead a mostly powerless small minority of devout and vocal Christians who are pilloried by that even more vocal part of the citizenry (which I regret to say seems to include you) and media that feigns open-mindedness while simultaneously justifying their bigotry against people who believe in God, sin and the resurrection of Christ.
I don't think I said the theocracy was hidden, merely that it hasn't taken over America's government yet.
And from where I sit, the most vocal part of the citizenry seems to be the part that says we SHOULD merge Christianity into the government. I don't see Christianity as a minority - nor is the mainstream Christian mindset, the one I'm railing against, a rarity.
It's been said that the true test of tolerance is its reaction to intolerance. I'm reacting to the institutionalized intolerance that is mainstream Christianity and I'm not doing such a hot job of it - but what IS the right answer? And for that matter, how do I separate those who call themselves Christians and embody everything I condemned earlier, from those like you who also call themselves Christians and seem to embody something else? If your Christianity is TRULY different from theirs, why do you take the name of their religion? You know people do shitty things and call themselves Christians, I condemn the mainstream that seems to be comprised entirely of such people and you a) think I'm talking about you, and b) defend THEM. What do you expect me to make of all this?
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
The question, however, is HOW someone can make every parent better. Should the government send every parent to parenting school? Should we try to de-evolve to the 50's when there was a housewife whose full-time job was to raise kids, or should we just forget the issue and hope the parents solve it themselves?
:-)
:-)
That 50s mindset is part of the reason we have a problem: the 2.3 kids ideal is the reason there's whole generations of people who had kids they don't know how to raise, because it was a STATUS SYMBOL.
Granted that's no worse than having 14 kids just for the welfare check. Or having kids because you actually want to pass on your alcoholic, heart-diseased, inbred genetic material. At least if you have a kid by accident you're coming by it honest.
The solution, near as I can figure, is to establish a NEW ideal - it should be "cool" to have kids only if you're prepared to put down everything and be a parent for 20 years. (I mean dads primarily - especially in married couples where the man has assumed authority to tell the woman to stay home with the kids.) It isn't cool if a kid grows up with parents as a distant entity. It isn't cool if a kid grows up having had no social interaction - and I can think of a lot of "status symbol parents" whose kids are socially undeveloped because of their parents' lifestyle. It isn't cool to, as some yuppie families do, treat the kids as pets. It's certainly not cool to have kids for financial reasons. All these things make a kid grow up feeling worthless. And the kid, having never seen any examples of actual parenting, will be incapable of figuring out what to do with their OWN screaming bundles of poop when they arrive.
I don't think a parenting school or a 'kid license' is the right answer - parents should be able to select their own parenting style, especially since some kids will have unusual dispositions, unique problems, or worst of all, be smarter than their parents - a government-endorsed "here's how you raise kids" will fail more often than it works. But on the other hand, if it's irresponsible to let a kid go buy a pet rabbit before making them read up on what it takes to keep one alive, what do we call it when adults go buy a pet baby before actually considering what demands it makes of them? Any couple who wants kids should at least think about what kind of ethical and moral standards they want the kid to have when it grows up - and hell, most adults don't even know their OWN ethical and moral standards until after they've done something naughty and can't sleep afterwards. No wonder censorware and raise-by-television are so popular - it relieves adults from having to figure out how to turn the screaming bundles of poop into functional human beings.
I think peer pressure could be used to our advantage. Figure out what the ideal should be, and then take over the media and popularize it subtly in sitcoms and car commercials.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Can you name ONE "fundamentalist Christian theocracy" on the planet at this time? No, because there are no significant Christian theocracies in this era.
America isn't a theocracy now, but has one hiding under the surface that pokes its nasty head up repeatedly. Lots of people in power in America - and presumably the people who voted them there - WANT America to become a Christian state, and seem perfectly happy to propose (and vote for!) laws that are rather blatant violations of the First Amendment. Thus I don't think it's at all out of line to use America as an example when talking about theocracies or how they go wrong - America has enough theocratic influence in the way it's currently run to serve as an illustration.
Do you really believe this, or are you just saying it because it seems like it must be true because the alternative is to imagine a large body of people sharing an absolute religious worldview- a concept that, in our post-Christian agnostic consumerist society is too alien to fathom?
Put it like this: there are a LOT of different ways to interpret a book as complex and symbolic the Bible or the Koran. When whole countries follow the same interpretation, something else must be going on.
As a Christian, I disagree stongly with their religious worldview. But try to have a little more respect for people with differing beliefs, and allow for the possibility that the fact of someone else's differing opinion may not be indication of their inferiority as individuals or thinkers.
I was a Christian. I probably understand your beliefs better than you understand mine. And my girlfriend thinks I'm TOO tolerant of Christianity - she considers it a mental illness, and after what she's seen, I can't say I blame her. Me, I got out because although there are some VERY smart people out there who are Christians, the norm seemed to be people who used the religion as an excuse not to think. I personally WATCHED people drop in IQ after they joined a church - I had to quit a job once because the boss got religion and became an asshole, and I don't mean he became an asshole on issues of morality, I mean he began insulting me verbally on a daily basis and started blaming me for everything that was wrong with the company. I have my reasons for saying the things I do.
And I do like conversing with people whose beliefs differ from mine - I know I'm fallible, I know I'm probably wrong about certain things, and if I know I'm dealing with someone who isn't an idiot, I try to entertain the possibility I may learn something from them. The problem is, it's kinda hard to find a Christian whose religion hasn't dulled their intellect. (Note about that last statement: if I'm not talking about you, you shouldn't be offended by it.)
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
I think that school should be year-round.
:-) That said, meeting-happy corporate types seem to have learned this skill from watching boring teachers. Make lecture-type classes optional and this kind of stuff will start to go away.
Have you considered what this does to a kid? You can't be a kid in school, you can't be yourself - the environment is too structured, it's just like prison or the army and for the same reasons. Lock a kid in there year-round and they will NEVER figure out who they are outside of that context.
If parents aren't raising their kids during the summer months, work on the parents.
Remember the one thing school can NEVER teach you is who you are. (If it does, you're nobody worthwhile.) You have to know thy OWN damn self. Some people may, within the school building and the social contexts it provides, find some answers (as I did - I became an artist while trying to keep sane in a boring class), but to expect that all kids will find this in school is wrong. Kids are better equipped to develop social skills during summer vacation, assuming your parents weren't like mine, living in a part of town where there simply weren't any other kids. Eliminate summer vacation and kids will grow up and only ever make friends and have social interaction within the structured framework of a job.
As for your idea about kids getting work experience, I'm not real sure how that would work, but I DO know there are "lab" type classes that allow each kid to work and learn at his/her own level in that particular subject, and from what I've seen, they work GREAT. Couple this with some elective lecture-type classes (for those who want to learn high-level calculus from a teacher at a blackboard - would work best in a bigger school where you can choose a teacher) and you have an adaptive learning environment. Schools fail when they assume all kids are alike.
Well, what kind of social skill practice is it to sit in a room of 30 kids listening to some adult drone?
Sounds exactly like the last eight staff meetings I attended.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
I don't agree that long summer breaks are useful for anything. Especially given the trends towards double-earner homes where children are increasingly less supervised or simply shuttled to care centers which deprive them of any of the real benefits of a summer vacation. I certainly don't think much of ultraregimented schooling to begin with, I thought my bias was pretty obvious (any and all lecture classes should be eligible for some sort of testing out). And I think a proper school environment would be nothing like being "locked in" anywhere.
Then WORK ON THE PARENTS. Seriously. School is not supposed to substitute for parenting, and what you're proposing IS that school should serve more or less as the child's home year round! If the problem is that the parents aren't home enough to raise their kids, deal with THAT problem, and don't just turn the teachers into parents instead.
One of my major complaints with most schools is age segregation. It's not useful. It stigmatizes brilliant students (or at least bores them) and it stresses the less apt. Given that most kids are average this isn't a huge problem, but it remains. Even worse is the notion that your friends have to be your own age. The segregation that occurs due to the notion that children should only socialize with other kids their age is a major handicap. Society has people of all ages in it and children seem to be increasingly losing interaction with that (maybe it's not the case, this is just my perception).
This I'll agree with. Age does NOT equal level of development. Classifying someone as a freshman may be useful only if the nature of school differs radically between one year and the next (i.e. middle school to high school may be a big shift) - but even that shouldn't be based on age! No two kids develop at the same rate, so let them advance through at their own pace. Dispense with years as a grouping mechanism, put kids in the classes they can handle, even if that means a gifted 12-yr-old is taking advanced calculus while also taking an entry-level language skills course. Allow graduation once a student has reached a certain level in all their subjects, so at least colleges know what they're getting.
I never got along with people my own age. I got along best with people a couple years older or younger. Dispensing with the years classification (itself apparently just a way for older kids to feel superior and smug) would have vastly increased my opportunities to make friends.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Christianity is a teaching of love for all people.
Then you REALLY need to get busy on the dominant religion in the United States that's using your religion's name without permission.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
There's something to be said for bullying, though...
(bear with me here -- obviously this doesn't apply to everybody, nor every situation -- but it is a datapoint to be plotted)
My cousin had a minor speech impediment as a young child. He still does, though you can barely notice it. He went to a speech therapist, which helped, but as a stutterer myself, I know the kind of torment young kids could inflict on somebody "different". However, you develop defense mechanisms.
His mechanism (as was mine) was to not talk very much. I had a reputation for being very quiet, and as a consequence, I did a lot of *listening*, as did my cousin.
My cousin, now, is working on finishing his Aerospace engineering degree, with a 4.0 average. He is one smart dude -- and I believe it came from his youth, when he was listening, rather than talking.
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Life is never easy for anyone, but it does get better after high school if you're one of us geek types. Stick with it. If you need the ear of a complete stranger to spill your guts to, drop me a line (email address above, take out the spaces).
Media coverage has nothing to do with the rage, disaffection and abandonment that these kids feel.
It also has bugger all with teaching them right and wrong.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The cause of most of this crap is that parents don't teach their kids the difference between right and wrong, don't instill any sense of responsability and don't teach what's acceptable behavior.
Kids grow into sociopaths because they weren't socialized in the first place. An IQ of 100, an underdevelopped sense of where the line is that you don't cross and knowing where somebody's dayy hides the guns is a recipe for homicide or at least grevious bodily harm.
Are these parents lazy, ignorant, stupid? Yeah...
What are you going to do with them? They grew up as kids of parents who were rebelling against authority and the believed the "advice" columns written by people whos' own kids grew up totally screwed up (those who didn't off themselves early "a la" Art Linkletter's daughter.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
That one in these situations would just suicide quietly, Now, for whatever reason, they have decided to take quite a few people with them.
Does violence in media have anything to do with this? I don't know. All I know, is it sounds earily like what Heinlein wrote in 'Starship Troopers', in 1959.
You say you want a revolution....
Unfortunately, this doesn't explain it all. There are still the nature vs nuture tendencies out there. By nature, some personalities are more violent than others. By the way we are raised we may be more or less tolerant of others.
But the more outlets one has - the better the chance one may reach a nonviolent solution.
The cycle of violence has turned outward from what it's been. We recognize this, we understood it all the way back to Columbine. Why, though?
The slashdot community, self proclaimed nerds, has had a wide variety of reactions to these troubles - from elder statesmen telling the younger ones "hold on, life gets better, they sell used cars and you sell your used cars to them" to "violence is never the answer" to "yeah, I remember that, I remember being stuffed in a locker and spit on and tripped and beat up after school because I told a teacher, who did nothing to protect me because I looked different than everyone else, and the football players that did it to me were untouchable in the school." We've been over this before.
The most frightening bit is not the suicides, which are tragic, but happen to everyone at all ages. It's not that the Internet is being blamed, either.
It's the freedoms that are being taken away from children in the name of protecting them. California's recently enacted shield laws, for example, allow finger pointing _at_ outsiders, the exact people who have been picked on. In fact, they encourage it by disallowing defamation suits even if the claims are demonstrably false.
The witch hunt against children has intensified. There isn't, however, a good solution to this. It's not just nerds that are being picked on, there are gays, minorities, and so forth. It has been ever thus. But the fact that the picked on are fighting back in such dramatic fashion, well, the legislators passing these new laws and the media covering them were not using a TRS-80 in class, they were busy playing football and picking on geeks. Except Ted Kennedy, who was busy doing other things. They're scared.
There is, of course, never an excuse for taking a life, but this is not a soluble problem. When someone is going to snap has to do with such a myriad number of factors that you can't pin it on the Internet, bullies or anything else.
Perhaps we need to follow Ashcroft's suggestion: ban violent video games, violent music and the rest of the violence in the media. When kids continue to kill other kids, perhaps we could then dispel the persistent myth that kids can't tell fantasy from reality.
Mind you, to _really_ eradicate violence from our kids lives, we really have to do away with the bible, too, what with all that smiting, going down into other cultures and wholly wiping them out, and so forth. But you don't see Ashcroft censoring that, it's "tradition."
Anybody proposing a viable solution to this problem would be a nobel prize winner, I assure you. Until that time, we're going to have to face the facts, outsiders will get picked on and attacked by both their peers and the government. It's sad, depressing, and has been ever thus.
As one who also had a really rough time in HS, including living with a deep depression, I can also attest to the fact that things do get better. As it happened I took a couple of years off after HS and finally went to university where the universe really opened up. I went from few dates during HS to more then I could handle in any one week. I also started friendships then, that are now entering their third decade, including ones with professors and TAs.
The culture of HS is at best repressive and narcassistic, with some of the most narrow-minded, authoritarian individuals you will ever meet (read teachers/principals) in control of your life. The pressure to conform is extraordinary, largely driven by powerful personal needs to both conform and prove one's individuality, all done in a caudron of hormones and peer-pressure. You are at a point where your conscious is also driven to understand who you are -- and it can be easy to believe the bullshit others may tell you if there are many of them and too few of you.
Please do try and talk with someone about how you feel, preferrably outside of school (parent, minister, doctor, psychologist), if you need to let off some steam or have to express something that you don't otherwise want to share with someone you know, then please write to me. I will do my best to offer a friendly, helpful ear.
All that's best,
James (james@jamesk.org)
I put some humility into one of my jr. high school tormenters with a swift kick to the nads. He was much less of a problem after that. Of course, these things have to occur without adults around to avoid being suspended.
Actually, getting in a fight and engineering it so you get caught is a great tactic. You save face because you aren't technically snitching, but at the same time, you force the teachers to do something about the bullying. The only price is a couple days of suspension. Small price if you ask me.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
If someone is committing suicide because they're lonely, or depressed at the loss of a loved one, I don't think it's very likely they'll try to take anyone else out...
But if they're suicidal because of constant humiliation, physical violence, taunting, and general bullying, I think it's fairly likely for them to try to hurt the attacker. If the attacker is making them feel they're ready to die, they'll probably be ready to kill.
I think in every case in the media, the shooter has been bullied. We haven't heard of the popular jock (who did the bullying) going to school and shooting the place up. These are obviously desperate acts by despressed people. If bullying depresses people I think the link it fairly easy to see.
Hah. What a cop out. Would that be the "I'm gonna lose, so I'll pretend it's on purpose" strategy? Practice it well, you'll need it.
The difference is that the killers themselves said that the bullying was a problem. In diaries, to teacher, parents, in essays. Never did the kids say that Doom was causing them to want to kill.
I think I'll accept the words and actions of the people involved.
Your logic is flawed.
I didn't compare drunk driving to harassment. I compared drunk driving influencing accidents to harassment influencing violence (specifically killing).
Harassment could very well be the primary cause - which would just mean that there are no more important influences.
I would tend to think that harassment is the primary cause of *school* shootings. If someone is feeling like killing someone, enough that they often diary their feelings before the event, and/or seek specific targets, it suggests that those people had a large influence. Being that the largest influence a nerd is likely to have with a jock is harassment, it seems to suggest that harassment is the primary cause of the shootings.
The shooter might have been slightly cracked, or otherwise influenced in such a way as to make them kill when others (myself included) responded in lesser ways. That doesn't change the fact that the harassment would be a bigger influence than other, like potentially video games or TV.
So, whose word will you accept?
You won't accept that of the actual killers.
And you won't accept the words of people like myself who went through the same harassment.
So, who will you listen to? Anyone who agrees with you? Any 'expert' on network TV?
Some of the killers had diaried, for years, about the harassment at school, and how they were getting more and more upset about it. Then they committed suicide after the act. What do they stand to gain from tricking you? And how much work do you think some kid is going to put into it? Years of their time?
Sometimes, Mr Psychologist, a cigar is just a cigar, and a suicide note is an honest view into the despressed person psyche.
Certainly they must be mentally unstable, but when looking at outside influences, what do you say is the likely cause when someone seeks, in their own word, vengance against the bullies... tv perhaps? Maybe NAFTA? Or, perhaps, bullies and harassment?
Besides, I think it's reasonable to wish death upon people who harass you with the intent to make you hate yourself and perhaps commit suicide. Bullies know the effects they can have, they see the news too. If they bully someone, they deserve everything they get. My only regret is that kids wait so long to retaliate that they end up taking out bystanders. A little bully killing isn't necessarily a bad thing; the bully intends to hurt you as much as possible...
If adults don't step in and prevent this - if they give the bully free reign to torment, how can they claim to be suprised when one or the other gets hurt? And very few people are ready to admit their precious little jocks could ever be at fault.
Oh well, once that one gets a few holes, maybe they'll watch what their next kid does a little more carefully.
If every child in this situation that the media has covered has complained, often endlessly, about bullying and harassment, it doesn't take a genius to see the strong connection. So why can't you see it?
> Do you know even one thing about psychology?
You say that as if it would be relevant either way. It's the falacy of irrelevant authority. I should ask if you know anything about psychic spoon bending for all the matters in this case.
Even if psychology was a science, a degree would hardly be required to recognize that proding someone endlessly can drive them crazy. (Any fields where a great number of the 'experts' follow the teachings of Jung or Freud and actually get any respect from their peers isn't a scientific one. Imagine a bunch of physicists, some of whom believed that a large stone would fall faster than a small stone.)
>Great, an eye for an eye. So much for being civilized. Killing is always a bad thing and I
>feel bad for you that you're too ignorant to realize that.
And I feel bad that you're too ignorant to see how right I am.
There, I win the argument.
What? It only works when YOU do it?
First, killing isn't always a bad thing. Often it's a GREAT thing. Had Hitler's generals been able to assasinate him early in the war millions of lives would have been saved. Sure, it's an outrageous case, but it proves that a blanket "killing is ALWAYS wrong" statement is false.
Killing is a good thing, when the consequences are more positive than negative. Like *everything* else, it depends on context. Eating chlorine is ALWAYS bad, unless it's bound to sodium. Having your leg eaten by weasels is a good thing, when the alternative is waiting in the trap to be completely eaten by a bear. Context is everything.
If a bully is causing the deaths of others, and is likely to keep doing this (I know some people who were bullies in school and they're just the same as adults, still with a complete contempt for everyone else) then I really don't see why it's a bad thing if the bully dies and someone else lives instead.
As for "an eye for an eye", that refers to punishment. Killing a bully seems much more like self defense.
Now, had the adults in these cases actually attempted to help the victims in their often repeated cries for help, then maybe resorting to ultimate measures like killing wouldn't have been too bad. But if you force a child to spend every day with someone who torments them, punish them when they respond, and reward the tormenter, you don't expect to drive them crazy?
Killing the bully will prevent that bully from hurting others, and may serve as a warning to others. Now, if that little nerd who was being pushed around had belted the bully in the nose as soon as it started, the bully might have learned and the only casualty would be a sore nose. Ditto if the bully had been suspended by the authorities. But if it's let progress to this point a simple suspension won't seem like punishment to them or anyone else; we'll be teaching them that their actions are without consequence.
Adults have choice, they can leave and get a new job, they can call the police and claim they're being criminally harassed. Children have no good options, their only recourse is to parents and teachers, both of whom are trained to believe that the way to cure these problems are to ignore them. They just keep sending the kids right back to school with a little pep talk.
And you'd blame the children for taking the only option left to them and trying to stop the bullying by stopping the bully...
I'm just glad that they took the right way out and shot the bully before shooting themselves. One less social disease for us to clean up later when the bully would become an adult.
I mean, if a bunch of young ruffians harasses some old lady on the way to market, The Police will at least stop by and tell the ruffians to stop doing that.
If the same bunch of young ruffians were to harass someone of the same age, most police would do nothing -- because there is nothing illegal or culturally untoward about the act.
Bullying in the workplace is illegal (or at least you can get fired for it, or sue if the bully isn't). Bullying at home is illegal. Bullying strangers on the street is illegal.
Now comes the strange part. Teenagers bullying adults is illegal, but teenagers bullying teenagers isn't.
Until it is illegal, or until one of these afflicted kids decides to sue, and sue big (rather than killing themselves), this will continue.
... we may have the highest ratio of lawyers to non-lawyers in the world [here in the U.S.], but there's some actual content in all that legislative noise.
The whole point of law is to legislate morality. Society/culture determines that some things are desireable (life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness), and that others things less so (murder, theft, arson). Where society begins to engage in activities that some folks do not like, but others do like, there is the resort of torts (suing the pants off someone). The conduct of corporations has been affected quite well lately by lawsuits, and occasionally results in the sorts of things that get made into popular movies starring Julia Roberts.
So, the whole point of suing someone is to say, "yes, you can legally act that way, but it is still morally wrong." The judge and jury get to decide who's in the right. Eventually Legislative acts may follow, and make such behaviour illegal. It is impossible for any Legislative body to write rules that apply perfectly to all situations. It's then that the tool of civil courts and lawsuits becomes wonderful, and one of the things unavailble in more restrictive societies. (The old saying, "If you want peace, work for justice.")
And I know. I worked for someone who never paid me (I was young, poor, and really stupid to keep working like that without getting paid). I sued. I won. I paid for six months of college with the award. It wasn't much, but it came when I most needed it.
I'm not saying there aren't frivolous lawsuits. Lawyers are a lot like guns. Most of us hope we never have cause to use one. Some people want to use them for good, and some for evil. Some never want anything to do with one, and some covet them -- perhaps having an unhealthy fascination.
But most of all, we hope no one aims one in our direction.
Oh damn, I'm going to kick myself in the morning, but "Me too!" I was assaulted on a daily basis in Jr. High.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Someone please mod this up!
In our society it's "right" and "just" for people with more money, power and beauty to treat everyone else like shit. Capitalisim is more than how we trade goods and services, it's deeply engrained in our psyche, shaping our ethics and morality.
Polls show that most people in the US feel that the govenment is mostly concerned about the interests of the wealthy, yet there is no moral outrage. Our congress critters don't give a shit about the poor, racisim, sexism and homephobia - but then the talking heads on the TV are gonna get in snit over Quake and Eminem - PUH-LEEZE!
Perhaps this is why they treat adults going postal as a totally seprate phenomea from school shootings? Seems to me that lots of people *of all ages* are shooting up the places where they feel foced to spend their days with a group of people they didn't choose. Yet the media and govenment folks keep their focus on only the youngest culprits, ignoring data on the adults, and possibly missing the big picture. I guess looking at the big picture might take the spotlight away from blaming videogames and rap, and we can't have that now can we? God fobid we have to deal with our real problems, like mental illmess and our wolf pack mentality.
- bridgette
Read in the original languges too. While our knowledge of ancient Aramic is obviously not perfect, there is considerable schollarly opinion that Ex. 22:18 would be better translated as 'Thou shalt not Suffer a poisoner to live'. (Reposted due to accidentally hiting the anonymous coward button)
John,
You are close this time, but not quite hitting the mark, the question that begs asking is "Why do kids bully other kids?" This is the big question. In my experience almost every bully has had either a broken home environment, ie divorce, or signifigant emotional and or physical abuse.
So the question should be, "Why are kids harassing (abusing) other kids?" Because they need to feel good about themselves. How do children learn to feel good? Mainly from their primary care givers, in most cases their parents, and what they have learned? Abuse.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Since I'm too late to get noticed and moderated up, I'll just put this one in because I think it's important.
For a LONG time now, I have been considering the lack of distributed education for our children. Thanks to the kind folks at the US Senate, and Reagan, Bush, and Baby Bush's Ideas about "trickle down economics" and "local control and _accountability" Our children have been deprived of most funding to teach them anything about the arts.
"But wait," you say "this is SLASHDOT, the arts have no place here" and you're right. But, Katz brought it up, so here it is. Our children, since the inception of educational cutbacks, and adminstrational overhead increases, have been the victims of a continual "re-organization" of schools away from funding those educational departments which do not lead to high salaries, or at least good job fields. While English, Math, and Sciences barely maintain their tenous grasp on funds for their classrooms, Drama, Art, Music, Dance and any other "frivoulous" classes are ignored.
So what? That's the next logical question, and I say that these classes are the _only_ pathway these children have to direct expression of their ideas, desires, and frustrations. They are also the only classes in which there is no right or wrong answer, and as such are the only classes in which the student him/herself has absolute control over. When you take away a child's right/ability to express him/herself, and all of their control, they will try to get it back, the only way they know how.
just my $.02
hmmmm?
First you blame the schools for not doing the parents' job (religious education of your children), and now you think the solution is parents doing the school's job? I don't buy this one bit. If you want kids learning about "God prayer, and the Ten Commandments", teach them yourself, and leave MY tax dollars out of it. You don't want the government to be Mom or Big Brother; you want it to be the godfather.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
It still wouldn't help; people who snapped would simply burn down the school instead. What then -- ban gasoline?
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
I've noticed that myself. A juvenile bully gets a slap on the wrist, but when he goes to college, he gets jail time. And, of course, defending yourself gets you suspended.
Best Slashdot Co
"A teenager in a small country town in New Zealand called in the FBI to stop what she worried could have been another school shooting in Pennsylvania"
"We eventually got his real name, his e-mail address, the city he lived in and the name of his high school."
Best Slashdot Co
I remember back in high school taking an x-acto knife in sight of the teacher, and drawing patterns in my arm senior year. I remember when we had to do the 'build a tower from straws and pins' project freshman year, and using my arm as a pin cushion. [again, in front of the teacher].
Each time, the teachers didn't blink.
For some reason, the substitute teachers seemed to have more of a problem with my actions than the full time ones did. [Something about flipping a desk over with a kid still sitting in it when I was having a bad day, and he pissed me off more]
Most of the teachers just shrug it off, as they've seen too much of it over the years. Sure, I never killed anyone over the years, but when I was picked on, I didn't tend to back down, either. If it wasn't for the satisfaction of grabbing some prick by his throat and shoving him up against a wall, I'd not have had any form of release, and might have snapped worse than I did.
Personally, I still want to kill the bitch yearbook editor who made me edit my entry twice, and then said nothing, and changed the thing to 'Don't do drugs and strive to succeed' for the 'blatant drug references' in my message. However, I know that she's going to take care of herself over the years, as shown by the kid who pushed her down the stairs a few years later. [People _do_ get what's coming to them if you're patient... and you don't have to do the time for it]
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Actually, I remember an attempted stabbing at my high school in um...1991?
I was working in the darkroom, trying to get my negatives developed. One of the pricks in the class (whom I later learned had been responsible for stealing my walkman), was flipping on and off the red light. [So it was going from red to pitch black].
Someone else went to come in through the revolving door, and tripped over the lip in the darkness, dropping a text book which flew across the room [darkrooms are small], leanding near me, knocking back the bottle of fixer. Once the red light came back on, I found the book, and as the fixer was missing (knocked under the sink, I later found out, but it didn't tip over), got pissed and through the book at the wall near the door.... right as someone else came into the dark room.
The prick who was still fucking with the lights started pulling the 'I wouldn't let him get away with that if I were you' shit, and I ended up in a staring contest with the guy who had just come in. I thought I stared him down, but right as he broke my glance, he swung at me. [naturally, breaking my glasses, and leaving a nice gash where they hit against my face]
Of course, that was the only hit he got in, as I then got one of his arms behind him, and his throat. What I didn't know, however, which the dick playing with the lights did, however, was that he had a knife on him, which he had been showing off earlier. My only saving grace was that it was a floding knife that he couldn't open one handed, so he tried stabbing me with a closed knife.
After a few minutes of a stalemate, as both my hands were occupied, and he wasn't doing much good with his, and he was having trouble breathing, we both gave up and left the darkroom.
And I still want to beat the shit out of the prick who was playing with the lights, too. I hold no grudge, however, for the person who actually hit me, as well, I just have to feel sorry for him for trying to stab me with a closed knife.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Humbling people does not make them humble. Humiliating people does not give them humility.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
Waitaminit.
The majority of kids don't learn to treat each other that way from their parents. They often do get the impression that it's OK with adults to do so, after they do it and don't get in trouble.
No, a very few kids learn it from their parents... but then they "teach" it to their peers, and that's where most kids "learn to treat each other that way".
Violence behaves like a contagion, and we know virulence varies with population density. Take one kid who is getting knocked around at home, and lock 19 other kids in with him, and soon you have 20 violent, acting-out kids.
While it would be nice to "blame" the parents of the "patient zero" kid, it doesn't actually solve anything. You can't prevent crazy, sick people from having kids, and you can't prevent people with kids from getting crazy or sick. There will always be kids in any school system who are "carriers" for violence.
The way to ameliorate this problem is simple: reduce the population density of kids. Don't put them in large groups. The violence won't spread as rapidly, and may die out before it becomes endemic.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for telling the parents who let their kids become absuive what crappy human beings they are -- "BAD PARENT. NO BISCUIT." -- and would gladly string up someone who abuses their own kid.
But I'm far more intrigued by ways to actually reduce human suffering. Pointing fingers is, as emotionally satisfying as it may be, not really a substitute for logical problem solving. This is precisely one of those cases where changing the functioning of the system can have dramatic "tipping point" effects, and it has nothing to do with who is at fault.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I take it you've never visited a "Sales pit", have you? :)
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
Wow! Thanks for the pointers.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
Nah. The reason you think that is because the vast majority of US kids that find healthy ways to 'externalize thier frustration' don't make the 6 o'clock news or have Jon Katz write about them.
I used programming to get through the daily high school frustations.
One of the funny things about the USA is that the drug war has given people easy access to organized crime - even those in high school. If you want a gun, you just ask someone who sells drugs. If they don't know where to get a gun, the person they buy their supply from will - and so on. Finding someone to sell you drugs in high school is NOT a very hard thing to do.
Funny how the harder you crack down on drugs, the more risky it gets to traffic, hence the more lucerative, and the organized movements become even more entrenched. More of the population needs to understand basic economic principles - supply side economics don't work for anything, including the drug war. Heh.
..don't panic
I have to add, though, that oftentimes people in working-class situations can't do all this stuff. They just don't have the time.
Well I'll get beaten down for this but... if you don't have time to be a parent you shouldn't have kids. I know I'm a selfish person and would be a horrible mother, so I've chosen to let my gene pool stagnate. Half in jest, I offer this link: www.vhemt.org.
"Smear'd with gumms of glutenous heat, I touch..." - Comus, John Milton
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
Ignoring the tastelessness of the first post...
:)
Now that I have kids, I want to make a "Proud Parent of Another Brick in the Wall" bumper sticker, with two walking red hammers to one side.
If anyone knows where to find one ready made, let me know...
Law-abiding citizens use (not necessarily fire) guns millions of times each year to protect themselves from criminals. (As someone correctly pointed out above, the police can usually only respond after the crime.) States with concealed-carry laws tend to have lower crime rates, since a criminal has to consider the possibility that the little old lady he's thinking of mugging may be armed.
If there were no guns in the first place, we wouldn't have to own a gun to protect ourselves from other guns.
If there were no such thing as guns, the world might be a better place. But we can't choose to live in that world. Like it or not, the bad guys are going to have guns. In response, we can either unilaterally disarm, or ensure that we are able to defend ourselves.
Why do countries maintain military forces? Generally not because they intend to conquer their neighbors, but to defend themselves from potential attackers. The principle is exactly the same.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Bullying and teasing are a fundamental truth of life. There is NO WAY to avoid them. They WILL happen. Especially during middle school and high school.
:-).
Depression however is purely voluntary, with the possible exception of chemical/clinical depression.
At some point in your life someone will tease you. You have to realize though, that their teasing does not hurt your feelings. Words can't affect your emotional state. They are not directly related. The way in which your mind processes the words can affect your emotional state however. Notice that extra level of abstraction there. Your brain, of course, is something which you control.
What I am trying to point out is that becoming depressed is a strictly optional side-effect of being teased. I wish more people realized this.
I wish these kids had had parents who had let them know that they were being teased not because they were wrong but because the other kids were immature. And that they had no reason to feel bad about themselves, that instead they should feel bad for the bullies for being emotionally immature enough to do the bullying.
That philosophy is, of course, easier to say than to live. But that's true with everything. Nothings easy anymore... even being a kid.
Justin Dubs
Last week I woke up to NPR on my alarm clock stating that Oregon Legistlators are trying to setup a hotline for kids to report their troublesome peers. The thing that makes this hotline unique? It's to report bullies, not bruised introverts on the edge of destruction.
I'm torn as to whether or not this is still a witch hunt. It still seems much better than calling in potential school shooter..
Trevor,
Thank god somewhere out there there's still a responsible press system. You country's reaction to youth violence is sensible and will probably go a long way towards fixing it.
Here in America, we are surrounded by venomous hordes of finger pointers, half pointing at the internet and the other half pointing at guns. I don't know which is worse, the damage to our country that they are doing in crusading against symptoms rather than causes, or the neglect of our children that they are perpetuating by ignoring the real problem.
But I do know that for once, I envy Canada. I can't convey to you the peace of mind I would feel if America would grow up & buy a clue from your country.
Maybe one of these kids will bomb his school with propane instead of using a gun, and once the "Anti-Propane" movement starts, America will awaken to the insanity...
--
What happens when you outlaw guns
How do you get the Washington Post to write a 2-page spread about your life, times, and problems? For 2 days straight? Please choose only one answer:
1) Overcome testicular cancer to win the Tour de France 2 years running.
2) Win an Olympic gold medal
3) Launch a satellite
4) Invade a country
5) Go to school & shoot your friends
5) Hack a defense department web site
6) Get a perfect score on every test & a perfect attendance record for all of high school.
7) Become a high-school all-american in 3 sports.
What's the correct answer?
No peeking!
The correct answer is:
5) Go to school & shoot your friends.
Everyone is entitled to 15 minutes of fame, unless you're a total psychopathic fuckup, in which case you get at least a week.
Think about it. Our villians are our heros.
But the kids aren't fooled
"I think it's so overplayed, this issue of guns in schools," said Kathryn Pizzuto, a 17-year-old senior from Tucson. "Those shootings are about some kids trying to get their 15 minutes of fame."
What if high school shooters never had their names released? What if Newsweek didn't slobber over them?
--
What happens when you outlaw guns
I had a _very_ loving family, with a mother who stayed home and raised us. We were part of a whole-some Catholic family and I didn't even start swearing until mid High school.
My brother and I would tell stores about our day to our mother each and every day, so there was little or nothing kept from our parents.
On occasion, when I was heavily picked on, my parents would find out (because they were inquisitive and attended school activities), and actively coerce the school to rectify certain matters.
On paper, it's an ideal childhood by nearly saintly parents.
Guess what.. I hated my peers. I was the brunt of mockery; a loner until mid-high school where I found people like myself. Being smart, but not wealthy basically meant your life was hell in our school. The cool people were most of the bullys because of psychological war-fare (though there were the occasional brute-force bullies as well.. My books were stolen, I was tripped.. You know, the whole 9 yards). I felt great depression at times, and my brother had it even worse; he was nearly suicidal (if not for the religious up-bringing, I'm sure).
Now, the two of us would most likely not have gunned down a school, but if it hadn't been for a few supportive peers, suicide wouldn't have been out of the question.
I balk at people who say we need better teachers, support groups, and more responsible parents.. Yes these things can and are great.. But the problem is peer-interaction. Plain and simple.. Visual appearences, sexual motivation / identity, the human nature to reject deviants. These are the sources of the problems.. Anything that does not directly address the problems in this class are insulting kids to lived my life.
I have ideas for solutions, but I'd have to research it further before proclaiming any answers..
School Uniforms reduce the amount of visual distinction between peer-groups.
Segregation of the sexes during the peek years of high-school might alleviates much of the grand-standing and devotion of time by the masses during "institutional hours".
Physical punishment (a la extra phys-ed hours) might also help "break the will" of externalized deviants. (where-as detention/suspension has failed)
-Michael
-Michael
I really don't mean to be dismissive of your argument or seem harsh, but blanket (and self-contradicting) statements like that invite blanket repudiations.
You can't have a partial theocracy, any more than you can have a partial dictatorship, a partial decapitation or partial open-mindedness. Inherent to the definition of theocracy is absolute, complete control of all governmental authority by a religious body. (Want to read about a real theocracy, find a bible belonging to some loony Christian you know and read about Old Testament Israel, after they escaped the enslavement of the Egyptians. THAT'S a Theocracy.)
It is alarmist ignorance that would lead someone to accuse the United States (of all countries!) of having a hidden theocratic authority. What the United States has instead is something entirely different- a pluralistic, ostensibly democratic governmental system largely owned and operated by the enormous influence of multinational corporations who purchase political influence from legislators and elected officials.
What you think is a hidden theocracy is instead a mostly powerless small minority of devout and vocal Christians who are pilloried by that even more vocal part of the citizenry (which I regret to say seems to include you) and media that feigns open-mindedness while simultaneously justifying their bigotry against people who believe in God, sin and the resurrection of Christ.
I was both religiously agnostic and morally relativistic earlier in my own life, so you might be surprised how well I understand what it means to embrace the comforts of believing there isn't any absolute truth, isn't such a thing as sin, and isn't a reason to be afraid of judgment by a Creator who embodies the former and despises the latter.
Thanks to you and your girlfriend for making my point better than I ever could. Selective tolerance is a solipsistic form of selective prejudice. Just because your intolerance is based on religious beliefs and not skin color, why fool yourself? You are what you claim you are not- close-minded and intolerant.
How does this sentence sound?
Change the subject of your derision from a religious belief to a skin color and you've just gone from being 'enlightened' to a hardcore racist. And how about this?
And the coup de grace:
I'm trying to be comforted by this insult that you kindly gift-wrapped with your parenthetical disclaimer, "Christian makes people stupid- but if you aren't one of those it has made idiotic, don't take offense."
You know what I think? You aren't looking for intellectual Christians- in fact, you've reason to be afraid them. You are looking to find people who call themselves Christians yet live clearly unchristian lives so that you can call Christianity itself a religion for the weak-minded hypocrites of the world and thereby reinforce your own prejudices. Racists do the same thing by focusing their attentions not on the accomplishments of the best and brightest African-Americans (who would undermine their own prejudices) but only the most egregious failures the black people have to offer. That way, they can keep telling their friends and peers, "Man, blacks are reprobates. Did you know that 1/3 of the males are in prisons? Hey, don't call me racist man, my boss is black. I know blacks."
I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I'm not trying to insult you. I do think it is important though to show you, using your own words, how you may be deluding yourself as relates to your openmindedness (not evident from your postings) and how you may be unfairly representing Christianity (incorrectly represented in your postings). I hope that in saying all of this you won't think my intentions were to try and be a jerk. I just hope that maybe the next the subject of Christianity comes up between you and a girlfriend, or maybe other friends, that you don't fall into the same ingrained habit of bashing and dismissing that you seem accustomed to. I hope my entreaties in this reply are at least substantive enough to convince you that there are thinking Christians out in the world, right now, who aren't buffoons simply because they believe in Christ.
(insert obligatory Monty Python reference here, cross-referenced to earlier comment about the past theocratic nation of Spain, in hopes of picking up a couple extra points to catapult my Karma into the stratosphere, where I may commune with Cowboy Neal, Karma Theocratic.)
Sorry. Just because nations have higher percentages of Catholics doesn't make them a theocracy. They aren't even close!
Incorrect. The bigger-is-better approach only applies to hand-to-hand. Had you chosen to think rather than merely react, you would have realized that firearms combat is rather unlike melee combat. In the latter, size, skill and choice of weapon give an advantage to an attacker who may be able to not only hit harder, faster, and further away, but also to thwart attacks. With firearms, having a bigger gun does not help you survive a 0.45-calibre slug from five feet away -- you're still going to be badly hurt, if you survive, even if you're toting a PSG-1 or a stolen OICW prototype.
And, FWIW, Kleck's research is supported by Lott's, which has in turn been published in peer-reviewed journals, which is more than can be said for most of their opponents... and Lott's academic background as a criminologist and statistician lends more weight. They're not empathic talking heads such as, say, Streisand and her ilk.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
I agree, HS was the worst point in my life. And things did get better once i went off to college. I hung out with the geeks also, but we never became popular. Well we sort of did a little, i think we were more respected and liked. It was only by a few maybe, but those few seemed to have grown up and realized, well something. The others, well, i haven't heard anything about them, so i guess nothing amounted of them.
My mom always told me also it would be better, andto just keep going, and she was right. That is the best piece of advise you can give your kid at that time. She did tell me when the best time of my life would be; she said it would be college and beyond, and she was right.
"Kids who are non-conformist, rebellious, individualistic or different in other ways are routinely subjected to harassment ..."
This is a very obvious statement. Sure, I was picked on because I was a geek, and for other reasons too. Face it, kids will be kids. If your young, and different, you deserve to be picked on, your asking for it! I'm not saying that its right, but that's just the way things are! There have always been bullies and there have always been the bullied. It's the reality behind this that is so scary.
So we should be asking ourselves; what has changed? Well, I'm not going to rant about how video games, the net, and TV are all causing this because that is absolutely NOT true! Show me the proof, and I'll believe you! So where are the parents in all this? Are they talking to their kids? Supporting them? Helping them through it?
Also, how do these kids get guns in the first place? It is strange how we have laws to protect our right to own a gun, but shooting someone is illegal. I see a big contradiction there! So what is the purpose of owning a gun in the first place, for anybody? Self protection? If there were no guns in the first place, we wouldn't have to own a gun to protect ourselves from other guns.
I think there are a lot of things we need to look at as a society before we go and blame the net, or video games or TV because that is the easy way out. Censor, censor, censor and your problems magically disappear. NOPE! We need to start teaching morals in school again. What I'm saying is we need to do something!
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Nicotine free Amish .sig.
Unfortunely, The "Village" in Hillary's context was the government which that witch meant not your community. The Ten Commandments are the basic building blocks of understanding and following the rules if you bothered to read them. "White Christians" are fine if they don't breath fire and brimstone and pretend that they are the only way. Banning guns would cause an even worse rise in crime in the U.S. and NRA have it right - if everyone has guns and knows how to safely use them, then the world will be a safer place (or lots of dead criminals).
Anyone that could be pegged as the new nazis is the liberial crowd (the ones who started the P.C. crap). People need to relearn that they are responsible for their actions not some distant past memory of youth or some TV show that made them do it. The Old and Tired as you put it worked, not the "lets use whatever fits the moment" to judge what is right. It allows what is wrong be considered right just because of whatever. The ending of Se7en is a perfect hit on this concept that the liberals have latched on (John Doe was messed up, but the line hits the mark).
To blame White Christians or the NRA is just an uninformed opinion, since it helps put the blame on a certain group and not the individual or the parents that should know better about raising their kids. Don't shift the blame to others, just because it fits your world view.
I love and hate high school simultaneously. What I love about high school: I'm taking a few AP courses, and I actually have real *work* to do for a change, not busy work, not stupid common sense stuff. Real, interesting, challenging work. Real research. Real responsibilities. On the other hand, a lot of people at my high school are immature. I try to step carefully, and I usually get away with just being another person that they know (I have a good sense of humor, too, so I get some respect for that) without being their target. Plus, I'm careful not to dress like a nerd. I dress neatly (although our school does have a embroidered polo shirt / generic khakis uniform) but I tie a few unique rebellious elements into my style, and (usually) people respect me for that.
A lot of girls are immature. They can make good friends, but they won't make good relationships. Too many girls I know can't accept a guy that likes them if they don't like him: the idea makes them uncomfortable, and they become incapable of even a simple friendship at times. It's even worse if the girl has convinced herself that she's in love with another person; not only does she not accept you, but she feels like you're competing with that person in her mind.
Junior High... is a good place to do all your homework, but at the same time be mildly cruel to your classmates. Not provoking, but cruel if provoked. Don't try to fight back, don't give in, but remember how much everything sucks and you'll have the right attitude. When you get to high school, you can accept people again, but you shouldn't ever go farther than friends. Most high school relationships, unless they're with someone that you would've been really close friends with anyway, are just going to suck. You're going to be lied to, cheated on, disrespected, and you're going to have your heart broken and your feelings hurt time and time again, even when you're doing everything you can for her. That's just how it is in high school.
I've been told college sucks a lot less, although there's a higher frequency of losers. People are more mature, the academic environment isn't as f***ed-up, and you'll actually find some people who really enjoy being your friend.
--TheOrangeSquid
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
Perhaps we should start a push for boxing rings in schools. Remember the old stereotype of the catholic priest dragging students into the gym to fight it out in the boxing ring? That is what all of out schools need.
is that our culture discourages hitting back. There was a time when if a child in this country was bullied, his father would take him in the backyard, and teach the son how to beat the living shit out of another boy. The boy would return to school, and the next round of bullying would result in the bully getting into a serious fight. Sure the bully might not always win, but fighting back usually gained one enough respect that future bullying and humiliation were drastically reduced.
Unfortunatly, those halcyon days are no more. Now a child who hits back is as likely to be given a long term suspension as the bully is. Kids are taught to seek out peer mediation, or to just turn the other cheek. The problem is, however, that these strategies do not fit into the hormonally charged mind of male youths. Humans are a violent species, especially teenage-boys, and they have an instinctive need to fight. This is why teachers and school administrators often have a "boys will be boys" attitude toward bullying, but at the same time pressure from concerned parents forces them to allow children to be drastically punished for natural behavior.
The real solution to this problem is to just go back to letting the kids fight out their problems. Sure boys will get hurt. Egos will be temporarily crushed. But in the world of teenage boys, no amount of talking things out will ever earn a boy the respect that punching a bully in the eye does.
Well it's so nice to know you had such a good HS lifestyle... I had conservitive parents (meant no parties & drinking was out...) & at school I was hugely unpopular that they felt they could beat me at will... Oh & before you ask why I didn't fight back I'll give you the answer... I did on a few occasions, here is an example:
kid (known bully) decides it's time to haress & physically abuse me... after 30 mins of being tormented I snap & deck him hard enough he landed a couple feet away... He then gives me evil looks until we happen to be in front of a number of teachers & then proceeds to pound on me as fast & hard as he can, with a few kicks for good measure & I try to fight back as best on can against the barage... well a teacher comes over & seperates us & we see the principle who tells us that we should never do that again & if we do we will both be expelled indefinately... Well when I get back to the class with my regular teacher (this was middle school actually, but the principel for HS & middle school was the same) he proceeds to pull me aside & tell me "I wish I could help you, but I can't. He's a popular kid & I can't get him in trouble without being embarresed or face getting canned. Your just going to have to face up to being beat on til they get tired of it. If you try to fight back I'll have to toe the party line & lie saying you started it & try my hardest to get him out of trouble. Don't let this happen again."
This is the repsonse from a friendly teacher... Can you imagine a teacher who doesn't like you (& their are a few no matter what) getting involved?
Oh & as for your 'or had more sex' part... Well the trailer trash sluts at my school had alot of sex (25% where pregnant at or around graduation), but none of it was with me (which I'm kinda glad about)... I in the meanwhile never even had a date during HS... See trailer trash sluts go for popular guys so they can latch on to who they think will 'make it' in the world (which is normally the guy who works at the gas station later on, but some get 'lucky'). If you don't hodl a high social position you are a thing to be dispised... The girls at my HS were cruel & vindictive to people they felt were social pond scum...
It's almost 7 years later & the scars I carry from how I was treated in HS are still with me to this day... My life hasn't gotten much better wither due to the clinical depression (try being motivated while depressed) I've lived with for over 9 years... I still wish a painful, violent, & agonizing death on all of my ex-classmates to this day & for me life can only get better because their is no such thign as 'worse'...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
There may be a relation. I too suspect they have cause and effect (if they are such) reversed. The idea of the body using a non-ideal state as a baseline is intriguing.
And quite right, there is no escape. One can't (couldn't) simply walk away, go home. So flight was out. Fight? Only works if you have an overwhelming advantage - and often backfires. So many stories have been posted (other articles) along the lines of "..and when I finally did fight back, it was me that got punished, not the.." Just ignore them? Only rarely, and only in the mild cases does this work. Been there, tried that. "Just ignore them and they go away" is either wishful thinking or psychobabble.
So what's that leave? Stress. The bad kind. And then people wonder "What went wrong?" when someone remains in low spirits, feels that 'the world" is against them, or snaps.. whether they aim at others or themselves.
What would solve this? I'm not absolutely sure. I know what won't work though. Restricting (censoring?) games won't. More gun laws won't. Profiling really won't. None of these does more than try to appear to Do Something.. with easy yet useless metrics. None actually solves the problem.
Responsible parenting would certainly help, but how is that acheived? And it would have to be at least near universal. Being "raised right" isn't of much comfort when those around you are not. Teachers and school administrators not playing favorites and not turning a blind eye to things would help. Even better if they dug when an "incident" occurred and found out not "who threw the first punch" as it were, but if it was brought on. Some means of escape, beyond living in a world of one's own, just between one's ears, would also help. Alas I have no idea how to make that workable.
I'd love to see a clever hack. This is a problem that is hard to solve and will take people of much greater cleverness than those who inflict it. The solution, in the end, may even be simple. Getting it implemented will be the real trick. I wish I was clever enough.
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
This isn't that hard to remember: objects are HUNG, people are HANGED. Basic English construction.
I guess you could say a person was "hung" in slang contexts, but you would never call a 12 year old girl "hung," and if she were, that would mean she probably may not be a girl after all.
The solution to the problem is here.
Bad parents turn their kids into killers.
Parents are wholly responsible for determining the how their children are raised, what they learn, what they do, and how they fare in life. Playing Starsiege: Tribes didn't turn little Johnny into a serial killer -- his parents did, for failure to raise him into a fully functional human being.
Perhaps we're noticing a sort of de-evolution. The least responsible people are the ones having the most children, and so every generation there is a higher percentage of children with unqualified parents. It would be interesting to note that in a hundred years, perhaps only a small minority will not be born to unwed teenage mothers.
Anyway, it is the parents' responsibility to determine the cognitive, social, and ethical upbringing of their children. Don't blame Beavis and Butthead, when the problem is that the parents let their kids watch it. If you give a machine gun to a monkey, and the monkey kills someone, you don't blame the monkey.
Got Rhinos?
That said: Christianity is a teaching of love for all people. Right or wrong lots of religions have these and its a very good thing, PARENTS need to teach children moral value, and that value should be reinforced by SCHOOL. This entire movement to remove all religion from our culture is wrong and it is demoralizing us. Kids shoot themselves and each other because they have nothing to turn to, nothing to put faith in. No matter what religion you subscribe to, having faith in anything can change a person's entire outlook and help them deal more effectively with abuse
To the posters above that have a negitive view of Christians I sincerly apologize for those people who have taken the name and twisted it into a hate field group of judgemental hypocrites. I for one LOATHE this attitude
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
Now, I'm not just trying to say "The parents aren't watching the kids, so they watch bad TV and it makes a bad influence"; and I don't think you were either. I think that the role of parents (and teachers) is huge; but not nearly the whole of it. Why, pray tell, do we now work more, sleep less, and cut back on leisure time? Why do we, as the MSNBC article says, "live to work" rather than "work to live"?
I'm sure Katz would put the finger at Big Business, evil corporations, something like that. But greed, ambition, even big corporations (Standard Oil?) aren't new.
I think, that, really, the problem is in electronics; but more importantly, they're really changing the way we CAN live our lives. And we're further than ever from the way, genetically, we SHOULD be living our lives. Take for instance (an old example, but still), indoor lighting. With this amazing invention, we can now work, play, or whatever, nearly all night. Sure, we still need our 8 hours - but did ancient humans only sleep 8 hours? Almost certainly not; light was pretty hard to come by; you certainly didn't do your work (food gathering) at night, you didn't go places, nothing. And food gathering has changed too; we see obese people, people who don't exercise, because, well, we don't have to any more. Recently, the advent of easily accessible PCs has caused Carpal Tunnel - we weren't built to spend 8 hours a day typical. Technology taking care of the "need" to hunt, many males feel a need (I know I do; my shrink said it wasn't that rare) to engage in some kind of battle; part of the problem we are discussing. More importantly, though, new electronics, are replacing not just the physical things (after all, food, light, transport - these burdens were lifted from us decades ago), but social things.
It's becoming easier and easier to detach from the world. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing that "Sleep less, work more" article as applied by profession; probably the more wired the profession, the less sleep. Because, well, it seems like, as you become more wired, you spend less time physically engaged, especially with other people. This would make sense for the social problems kids face, also; they desire to detach and return to their "online" world, as I'd suspect many geeks can/wish to do. And there, they don't learn how to interact as people; at least with others outside of their group. Now, what does that have to do with working more? Well, if you're not the social type, you can very easily latch on to your work. It gives you something to do. Did you see what other activity they said had gone down? Sex... of course, a very physical, very social activity. Myself, as a very detached person, know how good being at work can feel - since you don't have to deal with people (depending on your job, of course; as a programmer, I don't have much, but as a salesman, you would obviously). Less time spent doing leisure activities means less social life. Plus, the more you can get the chance to detach from the world, the less you learn to "Deal with" people you don't like; you can "ignore", "block", or whatever them, which you can't do as much in a "normal" life. Most people who work with you are probably peers to you; you don't work with the boss that much. Parents can escape the kids by shipping them off to day care (which wasn't nearly the accepted option now that it was before). People can isolate themselves from things they hate, by being at work; minimal true social interaction. (You can have a social life at work, of course. But that's not your purpose for being there, and you can get out of it. After all, spending a night with friends is far more social than working late).
So, then, what do we do? Force people outside? No, of course not. It seems odd that technology, which should make life easier and happier, has made life worse for people. People who can do more in less time wind up spending more time at work and less time asleep. They aren't in tune with their physical bodies, but with their work. But trying to get people do things just doesn't work. Peoplpe we always shirk; that's part of ancestry, too. It's pointless to burn extra calories, in fact, the problem with that should be obvious (in a society where food is limited). Although many exercise programs tout increased energy (which is altogether believable), we won't enjoy doing it; since, burning calories for the sake of burning calories is something that, genetically, is a no-no. So what do we do? We've already begun to create alternate sources of interaction, thigns like video games, to fill the need. For instance, again, the role of the male hunter - let's be honest, there aren't that many female gamers. Socially, we can keep kids from coming into contact with people they dislike as much; creating more schools like mine, and for other focuses also. But ultimately, the only real solution is in genetic engineering. Our world has changed - for better or worse, nobody is going to rid the world of lights. We can do some things to adept mentally, but ultimately, I think, physical changes are the only way for us to continue peacably.
Here are a few points that I'd like to raise because they (for me) lead to the conclusion that the easy fingerpointing is pointless.
1) There have been a lot of guns in this country since it was founded. There have been a lot of guns that a teenager could use to kill a number of people since John Colt was in business.
2) As much as we idealize how good parents were in the past, there is a reason it took a long time to get child labor laws passed. Same thing with child abuse laws. The past was not filled with morally perfect people who spent all their time bringing Johnny up perfectly.
3) The overall indication from the events is not that these people had abnormally bad backgrounds. What I find odd about that is that one would expect that the people who have cause to be head cases, who have been really and awfully abused by their parents, are not the problem here. It is not some readily identifiable 'top tail' of a normal distribution.
I just think that we're going to be 20-50 years sorting this one out, and that as much as we like to vent and opine, everybody's desire to pick their knee-jerk cause/effect relationship isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
It's unrealistic to expect the government to enforce good parenting. For one thing no one can agree precisely as to what that is. Here's things the education system can do. Smaller schools. Most of these shootings occur in big High Schools. I didn't say smaller classes, I said smaller schools. School uniforms (I don't care what they look like; they don't have to wear ties for example, but everyone should wear the same thing to school). Separate the boys from the girls. That will take a lot of the social pressure off the bullies. An all male school will also taylor their way of teaching to males. The feminization of schools has probably had an indirect affect on these incidents. Some elementary schools have canceled recess. That's a good policy, maybe, for girls, but boys are too restless for that. By the way, I read an article recently where a (female) elementary principal has banned tag during recess. What not to do? Cut the crap on all the "zero-tolerance" policies that have cropped up. I don't mind a zero-tolerance policy against REAL guns, but finger pointing? Or even a small pocket knife? There's been a lack of common sense lately. One other thought: Winston Churchill was picked on mercilessly in school according to his auto-biography. Admittedly, it occurred in an all-male school, which belies one of my arguments.
The truth as I see it is that there is no one root cause to why one kid turns violent, why another kills themself, and why yet another turns out normal. I'm surprised with all the people in this forum that have programming experience, that more people don't realize that there's a billion and one things that can go wrong with a programs execution which may or may not be forseeable; compared to the human brain, the most complex of computer programs seems like a simple for loop that outputs its index on each iteration (oversimplification maybe, but helps make my point). Like a person who points to one cause for all the problems with all programs, it should seem almost laughable to think that one cause, could be the reason for all kids who act out against social stigmas; whether acted out against themselves or others.
Do bullies make people feel small, insignificant, or worthless - certainly. Do some parents fail in their parenting duties - absolutely. Do movies/games expose kids to elements that they might not be exposed elsewhere - unequivocally yes.
The 'village' is relied on to help kids deal with and learn from what they are exposed to (both good and bad exposure). The 'village' is relied on to reinforce socially acceptable behaviour, while discouraging socially unacceptable behaviour. Bullying is unacceptable, shyness is, while not unacceptable, not viewed as a good trait to have. So both these behaviours need to be influenced to change by the 'village'.
Now some people will say, 'How dare the 'village' determine what is and is not acceptable behaviour. I want to be an individual, unique from all others'. To this I'm not sure how to respond, save that uniqueness is at the same time impossible to attain and a forgone conclusion regardless of what you do (resolving that oxymoron is left to the reader, ... it's taken me 11 years to fully understand that myself... I thought my teacher was insane when he first postulated it). And also, if you decide to be unique outside the view of the 'village' you need to accept the outcome of that decision (i.e. be accountable for that action as well).
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the 'village' is no longer just a physically constrained set, it is essentially WORLD - {people such that said people have no Internet access}. This makes it harder for the 'village' to agree on what is socially acceptable and not. History is not in favor of there ever being agreement either (ref. crusades, inquisition, et al).
Maybe its time we all accepted our responsibility in this global 'village' and start working towards helping those that exibit socially unacceptable behaviour rather than 'flame them'. Next time your working at a theatre where a 14 year old tries to see the latest 'massacre' flick, tell them no go. When you see someone bullying someone, stand up for the oppressed. When someone posts flame bait, give it its due and ignore it.
Thanks for reading this, curious what everyone thinks.
Dan
A moments thought would have shown him, but then again, a moment is a long time and a thought a painful process. - Author unknown to me (if anyone knows post it in reply - I think it was Lord Byron)
G
"Plurality should not be posited without necessity." - William of OccamThe media does nothing less than make all these kids who shoot up their schools anti-celebrities by creating a circus around every shooting. Kids who are getting bullied at school lash out in this manner to get attention.. and what better attention than worldwide attention.
Let some kids shoot up their schools a couple more times and give them no media coverage, no attention, and I guarantee the shootings will stop. Of course the media will never do this because big news is big money. And the bigger deal they make of these shootings, the more they happen... and the more they happen, the more the media profits.
-gerbik
That's kinda my point; speaking as a parent, I know that you simply can't expect kids to think like that. Hell, you can't expect most adults to act like that. On any given day, I expect to get almost killed at least three times a day simply driving to work; lots of other drives just don't stop to think that by cutting across three lanes without so much as a look or a signal they might actually endanger other people. The other problem is that everybody is looking for the One True Problem; the one problem that can be fixed, and all will be well. But it's not that simple. It never is.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Lots of schools are implementing a 'words equal actions' sort of policy, I'm afraid.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Hang on in there.
One hint - it worked for me. Find a martial arts class, one NOT attended by anyone from your school, and for preference a more "traditional" type one rather than a "freestyle beat-the-crap-out-of-each-other" one. What you get out of it isn't necessarily the skills to fight back (although it does help!) but it gives you back your self-confidence. It's not an overnight thing, but you look round in a year or two's time, and suddenly find someone's poured a couple of pounds of guts into you.
It doesn't mean that other kids won't take the piss - nothing stops that. But it teaches you to control yourself, and to know that whatever they say, although it hurts, it's not important. Self-respect is the single most important thing you can have.
Grab.
Fascinating, really fascinating. Like I haven't heard this a billion times before.
The question, however, is HOW someone can make every parent better. Should the government send every parent to parenting school? Should we try to de-evolve to the 50's when there was a housewife whose full-time job was to raise kids, or should we just forget the issue and hope the parents solve it themselves?
What do we do?
icqqm [ICQ:11952102]
The teasing isn't going to stop, and stricter enforcement of rules against teasing isn't going to help anything. It's these zero-tolerance policies that cause the problems to escalate. What could have ended in a student's poetry expressing how he hates the world is instead suppressed. I saw it happening in my High School 6 years ago. From what I hear it has only gotten worse since. Every year someone writes a poem for the school's literary magazine expressing something taboo. It's rarely an actual threat, which I can understand being punished, but it's something about hating the world, or uses harsh language, or some other similar topic. Invariably, the student gets expelled, and probably later beat up for being "weird". Then some stupid psychiatrist comes and when it comes out that the student has suicidal thoughts (c'mon, *most* everyone has suicidal thoughts at some point during their adolescence), but once it comes out, the student is not permitted to return to school until undergoing a psychiatric evaluation. His/Her parents find out about all this, and beat or punish or sexually abuse or whatever it is they do to the child even more now, and the problem of the child's self-esteem only gets worse and worse.
We have become a perfectionist society. Any hint that a person has thoughts which are outside the norm (let alone actually morally wrong) and that person is immediately cast away from society. The only way to deal with your imperfections in today's society is to hide them, and hiding your rage is only going to make you eventually explode.
I'm not defending any of the young murderers at those High Schools. Ultimately, it is our own responsibility to learn to deal with our rage. But like most any other problem in our society, the only ultimate way to deal with it is through education. No one should be punished for his or her feelings, or for expressing those feelings through words. Rather, the person should be taught how to deal with those feelings in a positive or at least neutral manner, before they become actions which must be punished.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Why are non-American kids not blowing away their classmates?
Or for that matter, why has this started in the U.S.? I don't think it used to be that common. Part of it is that the current situation has been blown out of proportion. If you listen to the media, there are millions of school kids walking around out there intent on killing or blowing up their school. That's just not the case. I actually heard of some first graders who were suspended for playing cops and robbers because "they were making threats against students".
I think a signifigant issue is media coverage of these events. Things like this most likely did happen in the past, but I doubt they were as as common, and I doubt they were as well reported. I think there is certain vicious circle going on here. The situation feeds on itself. Kids hear about other kids who have done what they have thought of doing, and decide to take action themselves. The media reports these instances and more kids get ideas. This is hardly the only cause, but I think one can attribute a certain amount of the "rash" of school shootings to copy cat crime. Most of these kids would not have had the guts (or perhaps not even the idea) if someone else hadn't done it first. There are many contributing cuases to crimes like this, but at this point, and in this time, I think a major factor for the sheer numbers of these crimes is the fact that kids see other kids getting away with it (note: I realize that in most of our minds these kids are not "getting away with it" they are either killing themselves as part of the deal, or getting lengthly prison sentences. It would seem however, that in the minds of certain of their peers, they have in fact gotten away with it.)
Unfortunatly, i do not know that there is real solution to this particular cause. Any attempt to prevent the reporting of these events is doomed to failure, and counter to what most Americans (including myself) consider right. "Protecting" children from the news of these events wouls most likely be counter-productive, and exacerbate other contibuting causes (most of us here would agree that if anything children are already to "protected" from real life). Perhaps an effort to really talk to kids about these crimes, and how they make the kids feel would be the best measure (not a "How to spot the Phsycos in your class" talk, but rather a real parent child "what do these events say to you" talk)I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
My point, which I continued arguing, was that I do not have a right to plant mines in my garden because of either the 2nd Amendment or the fundamental RKBA. I also said that mines were not primarily for self-defense. You said...
But mines by their very nature are not targeted against an individual. Once they are set, they hurt anyone who comes along. The right to defend life does not imply a right to hurt innocent people! Someone using a firearm for defense is obligated avoid injuring bystanders, such as by knowing what is behind his target before firing.Furthermore, mines are limited by being stationary. They could only offer dubious protection in one location. So in almost every conceivable situation for an individual, they are not effective self-defense tools.
Arguing about the right to use mines as a way of undermining the RKBA is still a strawman.
The line is drawn at the point where a self-defense measure violates the rights of another person. Using a firearm responsibly does not violate anyone's rights, and certainly just possessing it does not. The line is a moral one that exists for us to discover. It is not a line that we can make up to try to get to whatever results we might want. If there is not something morally wrong with owning a gun, then you are morally bound to oppose a law that forbids it! Even if it were morally wrong to own a gun, you would still have to make the argument that it was morally right to use the force of law to forbid ownership. Not everything immoral should be illegal.To pass a a law because of "social advantages" rather than because it is the right thing to do is disgusting. (And yes, I am aware that we have a lot of disgusting laws in the US. I oppose them.)
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
If you are not a parent...
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
I personally don't rely on the 2nd Amendment to make my arguments for the RKBA. I assume a right to life. From that right, I derive a right to defend innocent life. From that right I derive a right to possess effective tools to defend innocent life. Firearms are very effective defensive tools. Hence, the RKBA. Nukes and biological weapons are not effective tools for individuals to use in defending life. Hence, no right to keep and bear weapons of mass destruction.
You have knocked down a strawman. That proves nothing, but thanks for trying. ;-)
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Mining my garden is a bit of a different story. First, you don't "bear" mines; you plant them. Second, planting them in my garden would make me responsible for any harm that came to someone who accidentally wandered through. Third, mines are not primarily used for self-defense, but rather for denying access to a piece of land.
Ah, but moral grounds is exactly where this argument belongs, as do all arguments that involve using the force of law to bend folks to your will! If a law is not moral, then it should not be a law, no matter how much we want the results that the law might achieve. The ends do not justify the means."Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Why do you fear something that has a record of not being dangerous?
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
The not-so-original poster (he of the strawman) countered by saying the guns used to be more expensive and less powerful. He went on to say that 200 years ago, no one could have imagined modern weapons of mass destruction. Then he said that we already abridge the right to "arms," and now we are just arguing about where draw the line. He actually didn't even address the argument of the even more original poster, but instead countered what he thought was the standard RKBA position.
His is a version of a common anti-2nd-Amendment argument that goes like this: 1) Nukes are "arms" in the context of the 2nd Amendment. 2) No one in his right mind thinks folks should have the right to bear nukes. 3) So the 2nd Amendment is no longer valid.
The strawman is in saying that 2nd Amendment supporters argue for private ownership of nukes. If you read a little history of the Constitution, you will find out that the framers probably meant infantry weapons that one person (or maybe a squad) could "bear." This would have been firearms, grenades, maybe small cannon, etc. It would not have included warships, for instance, which unlike nukes were known at the time. (Note that it is not enough to look up "arms" in the dictionary, because you must understand the context assumed by the authors of the amendment.)
This is too long...I'll cover your other points in a separate post.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Along that line, I suggest putting a no parking zone in front of every bank. That will ensure that bank robbers won't have a getaway car waiting there, and thus will stop bank robberies.
If you believe all that, I have this nice bridge up for sale on Ebay...
Criminals break laws. They will break gun laws too.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
This serves their interests. We have bullies in adult society too. They are in government, where they have our tax dollars and have the ability, and sometimes the legal right) to kill. They include corporations which can fire us, unethically crush competitors, and send the gov't thugs after us to lock us up or rob us of our assets using the intermediary of the courts. They include lawyers who aid in the above. They include media conglomerates who censor viewpoints they do not like - "step out of line" and we will make it so no one can hear you (*). They include marketers who have tricked us into our changing what we want into what they want us to want. This list goes on and on...
Bullies in school serve (unknowingly) the interests of the bullies in society. They "soften up" the kids and get them ready to take it for the rest of their lives.
(*) Regarding media censorship: Look at how Tavis Smiley got fired from Black Entertainment Television right after Viacom bought them up. Makes one wonder...
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
For those of you being harassed.. please read the whole thing. I know /. cuts off, but trust me.
Here's my rant about you "Christians".
There is no such thing as a "Christian" in Western churches. You have Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, Quakers, Puritans, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
And to be fair, there are not "Christians" in the Eastern churches; however, at least they are closer to the original Christian religion, and all identify themselves as Orthodox, with only ethnic lines causing distinctions.
They may share the same basic belief that Emmanuel (aka Jesus) was the spawn of the Deity, he did some amazing things (like turn a small set of code, err.. fish and bread out onto a cast of thousands and still received plenty to fill twelve baskets of waste and that trippy water-to-wine thing), was crucified by the Romans (NOT THE PHARISEES! They were so minor in 30 AD they were unimportant, and they were added in a later Gospel because the Pharisees had gained some power and authority by the time it was writen, in the 70's!) for spreading a message which was 'subversive', was buried in a tomb, and walked outta there three days hence. (That's what Easter's all about, for those of you who have been living on Mars and are unaware of this whole Christ-based religion.)
HOWEVER.. All the various churches have their own spin on things. The Orthodox and the Catholics have the most in common, but are completely different in history. (Example: Orthodoxy kept the Byzantine Empire together for a thousand years plus. Catholicism was the only tie that the feudal society of the West of Europe had with each other.) And unlike Western Europe, the former Byzantine Empire had scholarly debates on theosophy which were more accessible than the arcanum of Rome (At least all the people in the BE could undersand Greek, as opposed to the West where only clergy and the most highly educated knew Latin well enough to converse in it.) and had a small problem called the Ottomans to prevent and preclude fragmentation. (Religion, because it was culturalised (meaning: it was unified in spirit but fragmented in language (if the word is wrong, correct me!)), became the only force that kept community in an age where people were treated like cattle, bartered and sold and moved frfom place to place.)
The Western Christianity is, IMHO, such bullshit. You have fundamentalist bastards trying to anti-prove Darwin with the Bible, which is historically stupid because the first six chapters of Genesis are myth. ("Religion has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion." --Supt. Chalmers) These fundamentalist folks are the real threat to America.
(I wonder what would happen if someone was to swap out all their churches' Bibles with copies of the Kama Sutra. Hey, It's a holy book!)
The there are the ones that at least try to interpret the bible, but in their own way. (Abortion, anyone?)
I hate it when people just call themselves "Christians" because, in all likelyhood, their religion does stuff which would be considered very un-Christian. Take missionaries for example. "The Bible says to spread the word." No, it says to show people your faith by doing it and living it. There are some basic tenets to Christianity.. like the rule of doing onto other as they would do to you. How would YOU feel if some native tribesman came to you to pitch your faith? Hmm??? Especially if they had the food and your sorry ass was starving.
Calling yourself a Christian is like calling yourself an American: it only gives an idea of what your deal is. It means much more to say you're from Manhattan, or Boston, or DC, or Chicago, or Denver, or LA, or SanFran. Your religion is not Christian, unless you are following the practices of the early Christian cultists which were very close to the mark. (Invite anyone to your home lately to break bread and share wine?)
And as far as the intellect deal.. I'm Greek Orthodox. In order to be a part of an Orthodox church, you need to learn the language spoken there, be it Greek, Serbian, Russian, Ethiopic, or Korean, to understand the service. I am a polyglot (I can converse in English, Spanish, French, Italian, and Greek; I know a little German and can read Korean.) and am learning more languages to get the real deal on the religions of the world by reading their holy books in the native tongue. (Comparing the Torah to the Koran sounds like fun.)
I am in practice a mystic. I have eccentric proactices, like going without food for three days just to experience it. I believe that there is magic in the world... I know there's much more to reality than this (and the science backs me up; most of the stuff in the universe is so-called dark matter, which is FOIAP invisible [jk]), with things like the astral.
There are people who are dumbed by religion, true. And there are the dumb in religion. (Please note that fundamentalist religions carry these people en masse, regardless of which faith they are in.)
The only people who are really stupid are those who refuse exposure to other religions with the "My God Is better than Your God" argument. Bullshit. No one's deity is bigger, faster, stronger than anyone elses, because in the end religion is supposed to provide the framework for a morality which is supposed to RESPECT ALL PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR BELIEFS.
Reading over my rant, I'm left to wonder, how does this relate to the problem of bullies?
I think it would be interesting for the larval-stage hacks (the real ones doing code and sharing knowledge wrather than the w4r3z d00dz and the skript kiddies) to call in the cops when they are abused by other students. I wish I had thought of that in school.. I was picked on from the time I was in kindergarten to midway through junior year. That sort of shit really screws with you.
The only reason, I think, that people stopped picking on me was that by junior year, I knew my way around the Internet well enough to have literally hundreds of pages of documents on how to build explosives or guns out of pens and Zippos etc. (Fortunately, this was in the pre-Columbine era. Now, a kid does that, he's expelled. Anytime i think of this, it freaks me out to think I may have been one of the first to call a school violence incident happening on such a grand scale..)
Most of the people hear talking about this probably feel as tied as I do recalling this drek.
It sucks to be the outsider.
But.. on the bright side, those of us who are extremely computer literate will have the last laugh at those godforsaken reunions.
Bully: "hey, I know you. I picked on you in school."
Me: "Yeah, well, that's in the past. What are you up to?"
Bully: "Uh.. well.. I'm a manager at a convenience store. And you?"
Me: "I'm CEO of a consulting firm. Clearing seven figures per annum."
Others around: They drop their conversations and swarm around me. (I went to a private HS and am *highly* doubtful anyone there will beat that within a few years. Success is the best revenge.)
For those of you who are being harassed, evidence is a Good Thing. If you team up with others being picked on, you could become part of the Camcorder Truth Jihad and put harassment on tape. That's what's called, in layman's terms, evidence.
La policia can be your friend. Last I checked, unless the bastard[s]/bitch[es] is a part of a gang or organized crime syndicate, the long arm of the law and a trip to Juvie (or County if they're older) isn't too appealing. (A criminal record will hold someone in sports from an athletic scholarship.)
They will screw with you unless and until you screw them harder. The cops are a force of sufficient size to scare most folks. (Especially if you have a friendly contact in the local police deparetment or the DA's. office..)
Also, please note that most bullies do so because of insecurity. Discern the ir triggers. If you can find out what their deal is, you have an element off control over them. Just don't do anything illegal.
Ruling The World, One Moron At A Time(tm)
"As Kosher As A Bacon-Cheeseburger"(tmp)
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
I grew up in a suburb of Baltimore, MD called Catonsville. There is a small church/ school in Catonsville called St. Timothy's Episcopal.
A hundred years or so ago, a young man named John Wilkes Booth was a pupil at St. Timothy's -- which was called St. Timothy's Hall Military Academy.
A few student pranksters at the Academy rounded up some of the headmaster's chickens, slew them, and positioned the gory remains where all could see. Needless to say, the headmaster was irked, and threatened to revoke the weekend privelages of all students if the conspirators refused to come forward (they never did).
In repsonse to the headmaster's threats, a group of Academy students (including Booth and one fellow who later became a Congressman) raided St. Timothy's Academy's armory, gathered rifles, marched out into the woods and formed what's now called a "defensive perimeter" in protest.
The headmaster gave in. No shots were fired, and the students got their way.
Sincerely,
Vergil
Vergil Bushnell
Insects and Grafitti Photos
Redundant comment, I know, but America truly is in a rut when all our Disinguished Gentlemen in the government can do is point at things and say "see? Look, that video game has a gun in it. Get rid of that thing!" What these social dunderheads can't seem to get through their skulls is that guns and violence are part of not only today's society, or American society, or recent history, but are indicative of the slaughter and power struggles dating back to cavemen, to the Roman Empire, to the Crusades, to Alexander's Conquering, to the Witch Trials, to the Third Reich, to Middle Eastern feminist oppresion, to minority oppresion here on our own goddamn country, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Copernican Revolution, to the Communism vs. Democratic struggles, and back to Jerry Falwell talking about getting a children's television show off the air because one of the characters carries a purse!
Jesus H. Flynt! You're not going to solve problems that have been plaguing homo sapiens for all time by banning violence in video games. Good sound bite, bad idea Ashcroft. How about, next time you send your son, or grandson to school, let him know that its not kosher to laugh at the kid who likes Dungeons and Dragons today. How about you teach your kids, or grandkids, that in life sometimes individuality is wanted, is needed, and that good companies and great potential spouses look for intelligent people with insight, not a buffoon who plays right tackle well and gives good swirlies to the AV club!
A world with no power struggle is a fantasy, don't think that I envision that. But if there is one thing that I could teach every single person on earth, it would be respect. Respect my home, respect my right to dissent, repsect my right to like computers, respect the fact that I'll raise my kids the way I damn well please, respect my disdain for religion, respect the fact that I have an intelligent, researched reason why I hate religion, respect my wife, respect the fact that my son is smarter than yours, and I'll respect the fact that your son plays basketball extremely well (maybe I'll even buy tickets to go see him), respect all of these things and more, and I'll forgive any of your opposite opinions or questionable actions (but perhaps not without injecting my own thoughts into the mix).
I certainly think that our governing system is broken. Exactly how many of Slashdot's thousands of readers reasonably expect that they could be President? Be a U.S. Senator? Be the Speaker of the House? Dubya was born into his role just as the Kings of Medieval Europe were born into theirs. That definitely needs to change. We need soccer moms debating their thoughts on bills. We need the former mechanic deciding on defense spending. We need fucking computer literate people deciding on legislation like the DMCA. America needs all those things if it wants to quit deluding itself that our country still runs on the tenets founded upon by Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, John Adams, and many others.
I'll get down off the soapbox now, but only if someone else volunteers to pick it up, carry it down to the next street corner, set it down, and proceed to lecture the corner of 5th and Main St., and then someone else lectures all of Broadway St., then someone else lectures Times Square, then Tian'anmen Square, then 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and then Paris, England, Baghdad, Hong Kong, and Hollywood, until a form of government about the people, by the people, and for the people impeach George W. Bush and put someone there who actually cares about the people.
I'm pissed.
"What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris
Nice demonstration of how coincidence does not qualify as evidence. Sure video games look like they cause violence, but the actual causal element has not been demonstrated. There are hundreds or thousands of cases (like myself) of people who can play violent videogames for eighteen years running and never once go out and shoot someone in a fit, but evidence that does not support this thesis is discarded out-of-hand by the likes of Ashcroft. But take the logical structure of the "video games cause killers" and substitute cheese for videogames, as you have done, and the absurdity of the chain of reasoning becomes evident.
Others have repeatedly posted in this forum that we need more Christianity for our kids, and that the country is just plain goin' to hell in a handbasket, and that 40 years ago the biggest problem in school was chewing gum and talking in class. None of this is backed up by any real evidence either. As a parent yes I'm concerned that there appear to be more school shootings than ever before, but in reality I think the chances of my child being shot by another child are probably less their chances of being hit by the bus that picks them up to bring them home. We are probably more victims of media hype than anything else, and the best way to combat this is to reduce the rewards to the media for sensationalizing the crime by not tuning in for the news, and not buying the newspaper. I haven't done so in years, and frankly I haven't missed anything important.
I SINCERELY hope you delivered a savage beating to your bully. It's the only thing they understand, and once you fight back, they leave you alone. Same thing happened to me, more or less.
Here's today's lesson in modern civilization:
1. Sometimes, violence IS a solution.
Human culture will never reach a place where that is not true.
But what is it that you and other anachronistic people tend to believe that they have to defend themselves from?
When I was a kid, the folks that were my babysitters opened a convenience store in Los Angeles. They worked the night/early AM shift, and then took care of me during the day.
One day, my mom was driving me in to their place, and we heard a report on the radio news about how there was a holdup and shooting in the part of the city where their store was. And when we arrived at their home, we found that the husband had been injured and his wife had been killed. They cooperated with the robbers, too -- the guys were just animals and decided to shoot them up on the way out. The family had 2 daughters and a son, and they all lost their mom at an early age.
Could the police have done anything in this situation? Of course not. It happened too quickly. The fact is, when something like this happens all you have to rely on is yourself. And, as horrible as it may be to some people, sometimes your best option is to use force to defend yourself.
YOU may feel safe, but the world can be a dangerous place. If someone tries to rob a store, or a home, the victim has every right to defend themselves -- because even if you cooperate, you can get iced.
If my shopkeeper friends had been armed, maybe one of them wouldn't have been killed. I still think about that to this day, and I'm sure this was a formitive event in my young life.
I am sincerely glad that you feel safe. I hope you are, and I hope you never even come close to violent crime. But don't try to take away someone else's right to defend themselves. No matter what your view of the world is, I hope that you can at least agree that self-defense is a pretty fundamental human right. There's nothing anachronistic about that.
Don't second-guess yourself. You did the right thing. It was the only (reasonable) choice that could have freed you. Your bully learned a valuable lesson, and perhaps some humility. Trust me, you didn't scar him for life. But you did teach him not to fsck with you, and by extension, maybe he learned not to fsck with as many other people. Huzzah! Believe it or not, you did a great thing for yourself and society at large.
I'm not a violent person either. I haven't had to raise a hand to anyone since my last scuffle in high school, over a decade ago. But like they say... if someone has to start a fight with me, I'll make sure I finish it. To do otherwise is to cheat myself. We should all stand up for ourselves and refuse to live in fear.
Yes, thank you for that analysis.
It was kind of a two-sided statement. On the one hand I would be criticizing the NRA/Christian Right for being stubborn / untrusting, but I was also careful to criticize the Left for name-calling.
I could have also written "Not that gun control advocates aren't nazis, but that they are too unrealistic. Not that teachers' unions aren't self-interested socialists, but that calling them names doesn't allow them to trust the administration enough to concede their culpability." Then I would have gotten letters from other people.
At some point there will be a crisis real enough that we see the need to stop pointing fingers and come to love our children as parents, educators, law enforcement and entertainers alike. To me it's like being a toxic polluter: maybe if his child developed respiratory problems due to the sludge he put into his own drinking water, he would stop polluting because it was wrong, the bottom line be damned.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
Now years later, when they are grown up, and go to work, say, in politics, what kind of solutions will they looks at? They sure as heck will not be inclined to blame the bullies, because for them, it was not a problem. After all they were on top, even if they were not the top bully. To do otherwise means they would have toi admit they were wrong.
It is interesting to speculate on their management style, although that crawls off into another topic.
In Any Case, because of the blind spot, they will tend to protect their own blindness.
Yes, shootings happened. But the root cause in the dangerous enviroment that the kids find themselve in. I do not blame them for wanting to strike back. In that enviroment, it is quite easy to go numb, to shut down the emotions that make you feel bad about different things. Toss in the psych drugs that make you feel like everything is alright, and it is just icing on the cake.
boom.
But the bullies will only blame the shooters, and never see how they caused it themselves. and so endangered innocent lives.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
well hey here in Canada, lots of parents get about 2-3 years in prison for killing their own little kids. Their's just too many cases like that.
Kids usually get 20 years in prison, more recently a 12 year old kid got a life sentence for killing his siter or his neighbour. I don't remember the details.
For God's sake why make such a big deal when a few kids die from a school shooting?
The earth is already way too overpopulated as it is.
Besides 25 000 people die from polluted water every day, a lot more die because they don't have much to eat and no one says anything or tries to resolve that pollution problem.
It's also in the way administrators deal with it - but I can't talk about that now because I have a class to get to. Just something for you to think about...
I can't be karma whoring - I've already hit 50!
SIG: HUP
I don't agree that long summer breaks are useful for anything. Especially given the trends towards double-earner homes where children are increasingly less supervised or simply shuttled to care centers which deprive them of any of the real benefits of a summer vacation. I certainly don't think much of ultraregimented schooling to begin with, I thought my bias was pretty obvious (any and all lecture classes should be eligible for some sort of testing out). And I think a proper school environment would be nothing like being "locked in" anywhere.
One of my major complaints with most schools is age segregation. It's not useful. It stigmatizes brilliant students (or at least bores them) and it stresses the less apt. Given that most kids are average this isn't a huge problem, but it remains. Even worse is the notion that your friends have to be your own age. The segregation that occurs due to the notion that children should only socialize with other kids their age is a major handicap. Society has people of all ages in it and children seem to be increasingly losing interaction with that (maybe it's not the case, this is just my perception).
I do not have a signature
No. I am not proposing that school be a child's home, year-round. While I agree that there is a need to work on parents, I don't really think convincing more women to be stay-at-home moms while their children are young is a winning battle right now (and actually it's easy if the children are infants, but as soon as the kid can take care of itself the idea that parents should be there as much tends to slip). And if you think there is a strong movement for stay-at-home dads, then I'd also like to know what color you'd like your bridge. The simple fact is that most jobs require parents to be away from home-- something I think is fairly recent in human history.
I am proposing that school be much less separate from the rest of the world, less run by bells and regimentation, and less likely to consume a child's entire day. Parents have never before in history been such the singular focus of raising children-- except perhaps in farming communities, even there you see large extended families all sharing daily life. If you look at history, most children have spent their days interacting with plenty of adults besides their nuclear mom and dad. There is no precedent for this "raise your children in a nuclear family vacuum" notion and it is dangerous. If society wants these children to grow up to be members of society then society must take an active interest in children. We shouldn't be walling children off in schools all day and we shouldn't expect parents to take major economic hits at the same time in life when they need the money the most.
I do not have a signature
I thought that was the way to outrun gators?!?
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
I find it quite hard to swallow that the "lack of traditional Christian morals" is one of the root causes of school problems. Consider the following:
On the 7th of March, soon after the Santee school shooting, there was another school shoting, this time at a Roman Catholic High school. Clearly Christian morals didn't stop this person from committing an incredibly stupid action.
Even if we do buy into the myth that a Christian upbringing would eliminate the problems with todays youths, you're neglecting some basic facts. Namely, that America is an incredibly religious nation. According to a recent Gallup Poll 88% of Americans feel that religion is fairly to very important in their lives. Americans attend religious services at a far greater rate than many other western countries, such as Italy, Sweden or Great Britian; yet those countries have lower rates of violent crimes and societal problems.
Something I find quite interesting (but I can't recall where I read it), is that the majority of the school shootings (which are essentially public suicide attempts) take place in suburban settings. They aren't occuring in the inner city schools, places traditionally held to be full of crime.
Gun violence has been a problem throughout history. Violence among young people, and school violence in particular, is not really on the rise. The severity of school violence may be (as in, some of the shootings in the past several years have been real masscres, something that was more rare in the past) but the frequency of the incidents is not. It's just been picked up by the media and become a flash point for heated discussion.
The National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (where I work) has data collected by the U.S. government and by private researchers. It's free and available to the public, and you can look at it and see (if you do the statistical analysis yourself) that this is the case. This includes the CDC data that the statistics in the article above come from. I'm not denying that this is a major problem, and one that should be addressed immediately and with a great deal of energy. I am getting tired, however, of reading about this is a new phenomenon. Every time that people say that this is a new phenomenon, they link it to other new phenomena like the Net and video games and too much cheese in one's diet.
Don't just swallow the sound bytes whole-- look into the sources and decide for yourself.
Do something about world hunger. Click here
One thing to remember is that these are children. They are acting out in natural ways. The reason the Internet and the media are blamed for problems in school is we want to blame someone, to say that bad behavior was learned from somewhere else. The fact seems to be that bullying, singling out different children, and forming cliques is natural behavior. It also seems natural to react with depression, becoming withdrawn, or making a decision to conform.
Why is it this way? Maybe there is a pressure to eliminate those with some sort of flaw. These "flawed" organisms compete for food and resources with the "unflawed" folks, so there may be a group pressure to isolate the strange elements and deny them social privileges. Perhaps even suicide is a natural reaction to this treatment by the group.
Even though we are influenced by biology, we are not determined by it. I think we need to recognize a real biological influence behind this cycle, and come up with rational and societal methods for combating it.
One of the problems is that this anti-biological tactic used to be in the realm of religion. In Christianity, the call was to "love one another, as God has loved you". The fact that many Christians did not practice this decree is a human flaw, not a flaw in the religion. Regardless, now that religion has taken a back seat in public life, we need some sort of shared civil code to replace it.
I don't want to go back to the days of religious intolerance, but we do need something that looks like religion, to help us care for each other a little better, something that we can share as Americans or Humans, regardless of race, creed, or religion
As for those who are currently going through this hell, they need to remember that this time in their life is temporary. There are those that appreciate them for who they are, and when they get out of school, they can move to a place where they are accepted. Suicide is permanent, and you can't take back murder, but, if you survive school, you'll be a better person for it.
Wow... you had an amazingly wonderful father.
My parents gave me the "these are the best days of your life" crap, and the "if you'd just act more normal, no one would pick on you" crap. My life started to get easier as soon as I stopped caring about my image, about dating, about what others thought in general.
The worst thing my parents ever told my is that in high school, I was to young to know real stress. I now am in college full time, working a full time job, and juggling a social life in between... it's nowhere near as stressful as high school was! There's no violence, geek bigotry, popularity contests, etc. to worry about.
If any geeky, rebellious, and/or non-conformist high-school students are out there and considering suicide -- take my advice, life gets way better after school. Don't listen to your parents bitching. Life only gets easier. Especially if you are intelligent, and go into a field like computer science, engineering, etc.
--Paladin
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
The digression about guns pointed out a beautifully predictable aspect of a lot of American citizens - this secret desire to be able to take the law into their own hands (or so I observe).
You're right - guns wouldn't be needed in a nicer society - personally, I feel we have it here in Canada. Guns are an easy target because they show up in the press so much more so than "somebody bludgeoned somebody else with a baseball bat." It also tends to illustrate that people get violent even over the issue of guns. This violent behaviour is at the root of American society.
Religion to me is a very personal subject. And I have come from small towns where my religious beliefs would have gotten me persecuted in a second by the majority of the townsfolk. I really got sick and tired of having this forced in my face everyday - especially with respect to government and public institutions. My government should have absolutely nothing to do with how I or others practice religion. I have nothing to do with how others practice their religion - I just think it should be removed in that sense.
I can really empathize with that Wiccan who committed suicide (although I'm not Wiccan) because of persecution - do the people of the USA remember why they came to the New World? Religious persecution.
I agree that the better culture needs to accomodate people who think differently - often cultures that are able to grow and adapt succeed. I have nothing wrong with diversity - just don't stick it in my face and tell me that I am wrong because I *shrugs* worship in the nude or on Saturdays, or don't at all.
This might get me modded down, but that's okay too - it happens.
I donate all spillover Karma to the charity of my choice... Ada was still a babe despite what people may say...
But what is it that you and other anachronistic people tend to believe that they have to defend themselves from?
I've never understood that "defense" (pardon the pun) for owning guns. I don't own a gun, and I feel perfectly safe walking through my neighbourhood, or other neighbourhoods.
I donate all spillover Karma to the charity of my choice... Ada was still a babe despite what people may say...
Politicians like to blame video games and culture, because these things can be regulated and legislated. Bullies don't respond in quite the same way.
Because you can't, you won't, and you don't stop...
The old saying goes something like, "If the mind can conceive and the heart can believe, the person can achieve." You've got to know what to do and believe that you can do it before you can make it happen.
Of course, if you'd told me about the leaps computer networks were making between the time I left Ohio in 1991 and moved to 'net-unaware Mississippi, when I didn't get access to the Internet until 1995 at my alma mater, I would have pestered my parents for the ability to stay connected in that four-year interregnum. Then I might have started writing about sports online a little bit earlier.
An interesting phenomenon...mod the parent of this comment up.
--
-- Geof F. Morris
Wisdom pre-Matrix. wow...
I still prefer this one...
"My kid got your Honor Roll student pregnant!"
1,0
ml
--Unix *is* user friendly.
It's just picky about who its friends are.
In typical fashion the administration looks for a solution in which military-style intervention will work.
It won't.
Until we can offer young people high quality mental-health treatment for their concerns we'll find more and more sinking into depression and despair.
I believe that our culture is a violent one and that the images in Doom and Marathon where violence is consequence-free matches that of our film world where its easy to see the whole-sale slaughter of thousands with no consequences at all for the person who caused it.
It's a pervasive message in our society.
Given this background, is it any wonder that young angry adolescents strike out in ways that are so destructive? They have been de-sensitized to violence! And it's not going to change soon.
So what we have to offer are ways for these deeply confused and possibly damaged young people to express what they are feeling and work through the terribly hurtful places so they can stand the social pressures (which are profound) without losing contact with the social fabric of society.
Guess what?
This is expensive. So is treating the drug problem at the demand side instead of the supply side.
We can't see that what we have are sick people who need to be cured...because you can't BLAME them if they are sick and you can't send in the police. Instead you have to treat them as individuals and cure them, one person at a time, person to person.
It's the only way we know, right now, that is proven to work.
Gun violence in our nation's schools is a serious problem. So, I recommend we stick to discussing the impractical solutions. That way when people ignore us and the problem doesn't go away, we can claim to have known better all along.
Can I get an "amen?"
Personally, I doubt it. I really do. Teasing, bullying and ostracism are not in any way new trends among children, or adults for that matter. Anthropological studies of societies which are effectively stone-aged have indicated that these, like sex drive and hunger, are human universals. Children are cruel. They make fun of each other. They will physically bully each other, and emotionally torment each other. And they grow up.
I know alot of kids who got bullied. Badly. I've worked with some on a therapy basis. They dealt. They grew up. They never killed anyone, including themselves, and most of them are now highly motivated geeks who work very hard to obtain a high standard of living. I know children, 16 and 17 now, who have been subjected to years of being a child, just like the children who Mr. Katz is discussing, and who similarly are growing up,a nd are dealing. These are also children who've played Doom. Children who've seen Terminator. They're grown up with the same society, and yet, they've actually grown up.
I am querying the assumption that the only thing society could teach is violence to others. Is it possible that the (truly disturbing) rise in suicide rates among under-16's might be due not to children being bullied more, which I seriously doubt is the case, but in fact to society accepting and presenting suicide in a way it has never done before? Suicide as an option for 'dealing', being perceived as a way to deal, enjoys a status it has never enjoyed before.
I do not take suicide lightly. Suicide is not a new thing, and I'm not trying to claim that it is. It's a very serious, deeply distressing thing. But modern society treats it differently than society in the past. In the past, suicide was one of two things; it was either honourable, in the sense of saving others from shame on your behalf (rare) or it was deeply dishonourable as it constituted the ultimate admission that you were not strong enough for life as an adult.
That was the past. This is the present. Nowadays, suicide is viewed and presented as something that happens. It is 'understood'; it is a 'cry for help'; it's 'attention-seeking'.
Attention-seeking! We're talking about someone trying to take their own life, for goodness sake. Any society in which suicide has become so much a part of everyday life that children will consider attempting to take their own life as a gesture has made suicide far too easy an option on the individual. It has lowered the shame barrier, which ultimately is the only thing which keeps the human animal within bounds of socially acceptable behaviour, so far that the act is considered near-trivial.
Hypothetically, then, if (as I would argue) the premise that children have become fundamentally more unpleasant is untenable, what might be transmitting society's inured attitude to suicide into an advanced death rate for minors?
Why do people kill themselves? Be it loneliness or pressure or depression or spite, ultimately, it all comes back to one thing. Despair. It comes back to the point where one's image of oneself and of one's own worth is in deficit compared to the effort and strength required to continue being. So maybe the problem, then, is in that image? That sense of one's own worth?
What's changed, perhaps, is that children are no longer being taught about strength of will, about persistance, about self-confidence. Children are not being supported, given strong self-image. They are not being given the tools required to survive life. Life is hard. Life is nasty. People are nasty, and that is the way it's always been. If, however, you're not taught how to cope, not given something to cling to (be it religion, science, self-image, money, whateverthehell) then coping with Life can be made exponentially more difficult. And it is a famous refrain of the social reformers in these days the The Family Group is Dying, and Parents Aren't Helping Enough, and Teachers Need More Respect, and so on. All these things are true, and not true. Many parents are teaching their children what those children need in terms of self-worth and positive reinforcement, and discipline (at least as important). Many teachers are dedicated to their vocation of helping children grow into erudite adults. But, many aren't. And society has created a culture for children in which adolescence can start at 7 and go on till 25... It's bad enough when it used to last three years, 18 is ridiculous!
Attempting to imply that children now are more nasty than children fifty years ago is just not a sensible suggestion. Suggesting that parents now are not, on average, doing as good a job of giving their children the tools to survive life, due to societal change, working habits, etc, strikes me as much more plausible.
So, Mr. Katz, in answer to your postulate, I do not believe that kids are turning other kids into killers. I believe that society is turning kids into victims.
~cHris--
Chris Naden
"Sometimes, home is just where you pour your coffee"
i don't find it to be a badge of honor. it's simply a fact. and of course i'd be different now if i didn't grow up with it. i can't say i'd be BETTER, though. my depression turned out to be traumatic rather than clinical, but the doctors didn't know that at the time and diagnosed me as clinical.
therefore, if i had been given drugs, there are any number of incredibly bad side effects or other problems that could have occurred. and since children's brain chemistry changes more drastically than adults when they are between the ages of 5 - 16, there are scads of other ethical issues that arise from using adult-tested drugs on children.
you might very well be right, but a two parent loving family can't always exist. i had a single parent loving family. my parent was VERY dedicated to me...but resources were limited.
i was a senior when the movie "Heathers" came out. it acted out a fantasy i had had all along - blow up my whole damn school. why the whole school? because there's no torture like being ignored by all your peers - literally an *entire school* - for months. why? because there were rumors that i was gay.
my parent couldn't help me with that kind of torment. school was a requirement, and a single parent cannot home school their child. i had little choice. if i were inclined to be more physical with my anger, i *might* have killed. i consider myself lucky that i wasn't. i did flirt with thoughts of suicide instead...once again, i consider myself lucky that i didn't do it.
but i certainly thought about both options. i would have been a saint not to.
i was one. it still doesn't change my mind.
The difference is that no one reveres life in this age. We make abortion easy and now that RU-486 is available, even easier. Physician assisted suicide, formerly unheard of, is now available in Oregon (I'm not sure where else...) Our heroes are Arnold Schwatzenegger and Sylvester Stallone. The coolest games are Quake and Unreal (among many others). Television cops draw their guns at least once per episode (ask a real police officer when the last time he/she actually drew his/her weapon was - yes, there are shootings, but on a per/officer basis, it is rare)
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize why when the same bullies act the same way they always have, the new solution is to kill. You reap what you sow.
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly"
A little personal anecdote: Like a bunch of other users I've read on here, I went through the same crap. Junior high and high school are thankfully now a long, awful, blur. A few random instances spring to mind, particularly with bullies. Few friends, all the assorted things that go along with it. I always had violence on the mind and it made me a very angry, very unhappy person. I had a bad bout with depression my sophomore year of high school, and thankfully my parents recognized it and forced me into some therapy. It made all the difference in the world. He said to me that he firmly believed that 99% of the population ought to be in therapy. Should any parents read this, I would absolutely urge you to consider it. You do not have to be crazy to go into therapy. Really. I grew out of it. The problem was, I was a new person stuck in the old environment with the old relationships. Then I got to go off to college. Firstly, I'm a big believer in gut feelings. When choosing a school, the environment has to be right. You'll know it when you see it. There's nothing like a change of environment. Upstate New York is also a hell of an attitude change. I'm now the happiest person I can ever remember being. I like my classes, I love my school, I love meeting people, dance, art, and other things I never would have considered. Not a total change, I still love punk music and computers. I'm still a geek, to be sure. The point is that yes, it does get better. If I can do it, I do feel that most people can. Put yourself somewhere that you want to be, surround yourself with people that you want to be with, to whatever extent possible. I'm not suggesting to change yourself, because two years ago I wouldn't have listened. I'm suggesting that you let yourself be open to change. It takes time to be secure in your own personality. It takes some soul-searching, too. I've made a distinct effort to not hate anything anymore. Removing it from one's vocabulary does wonders. Oh, and I read some users that suggested fighting back as the solution. I could never do it. I tried several different types of martial arts but could never stick with it. It took me a long time to figure out why. I can't stand violence. It wasn't the thought of what people would do to me, it's what I would do to someone else, the things that they were teaching me. The thought of violence makes me sick physically. Now, I'm not saying that it isn't a solution. I'm saying that fighting is not the solution for everyone. Weigh out the pros and cons and decide for yourself. And note that I *do* play Counter-Strike :).
No matter how bad it gets, never forget that you are loved. I lost sight of it for a while. You are a special person, you have your own story, and you can contribute things that nobody else can. And, in case this massive outpouring from the Slashdot community hasn't convinced you of it, you are not alone.
-Justin
OK, let's run down the numbers:
1. kid vs kid violence - at an all time low. Caveat: US culture encourages the use of military style firearms and glorifies same. Hence, individual actions have higher bodycounts. But fewer die than in prior years, it's just reported nationwide now.
2. main cause of Columbine-style killings: jocks and cheerleaders teasing geeks and outcasts. Nothing is ever done about this - teachers always support the dominant social order, even those the jocks and cheerleaders will grow up to be destructive members of society, wasting resources and creating nothing of lasting value.
3. main result of zero tolerance - geeks and outcasts are further pressured - result is more incidents.
4. main result of media national reportage of such incidents - more shootings as other kids realize they too can emulate the Way of the Gun.
5. main result of media coverage - more NRA actions encourage more kids to use more guns.
6. main result of games - zip. zero. zilch. it's been a red herring for centuries, get over it.
7. main result of reading a "story" by Jon - brain rot and belief that untruths are real and geeks are the ubermensch of the new millenium, even though we're just people who need to party but now can't even buy E without doing 20 years in the pen.
This is your brain. This is your brain after reading Jon. Any questions?
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
It's true, adolescents can be some of the cruelest people in the world. An article on the 'Columbine effect' in TIME said that one of the California shooters had his shoes stolen by bullies!
Think about that for a minute.
Can you imagine if your colleagues in your workplace held you down and stole your footwear? Would people be so surprised if you returned with a gun?
But, that's only part of the problem. Bullies were just as mean 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. Guns were arguably just as available. So, maybe kids hadn't seen so many Terminator movies, or played as much Doom. Maybe their parents were at home more. Most likely, the idea never occurred to them, or they didn't think they could actually pull it off. Columbine changed that forever. To solve the problem now, we need to address every single one of the causes, and make some serious changes, or it's not going to stop.
I think a lot more accurate target is the "self esteem" movement, that is, education schools teaching the teachers to try to make the kids feel good about themselves by praising them for crappy work. Of course, the kids see right through that.
The second part of this is an often repeated untruth -- that low self esteem causes violence. Someone finally did some research on this. Actually, violent criminals think very highly of themselves, without any real accomplishments to support their self-esteem. So when they think their inflated self-opinion is challenged, they explode into violence.
Both people with low self-esteem and people with solidly-founded high self esteem are unlikely to resort to violence. (Makes sense: the first group suspects they'd lose the fight, and the second know better ways to handle problems.)
A teacher could try to handle low self-esteem by teaching the kid to do work he or she could really be proud of. (I know my father did, many times. But that was in college, not at a public school.) But most of the so-called teachers can barely teach, so instead they praise crappy work. And some kids put enough belief in the praise that they are walking around thinking they are really great, but aware other people may not agree -- so they'll shoot if you look at them wrong...
Nah, I can't stand the food. ;) Besides, they might shoot me. Seriously, what you really need here is statistics -- the reported murder rate, official executions, and other sudden deaths. I would love to see trustworthy statistics from China -- but I don't expect their government to compile them without bias, and I don't see how anyone else could... What I do know is the record of the Nazis part of the record of the Soviets, and an order of magnitude estimate of the deaths under Mao in China. And in each of those countries, at least ten million died by the actions of their own gov't in a few years. Far fewer Americans died violently in the whole 20th century.
I'm a highschool junior, and I've been teased for who knows how long. I'm not a strong girl, I break down a lot. I have been taught to hate, and I do hate the people who choose to tease me. I could very well yell at them, scream at them, and maybe even hit them, but to what extent will it take to push me over the edge? I can't imagine wanting to kill anyone, even if they have tortured me for years. It does make me wonder what these children have gone through that makes them so unhappy. All the school shooters have made it clear that they have been made fun of and teased.
But can it be entirely blamed on the students? The peers? No, it can't. Where are the parents? How can they live with someone and not realize how unhappy their children are? And if they realize that they're unhappy, how can they sit there and do nothing about? When I'm a mother, I will not let my children go through such pain and torment. That's just added stress on a child's life, the fact that the parents don't care enough to help... It would kill me.
I'm thought of killing myself before. And it was not just my peers that made me want to die, it was very much my parents. So, it's not entirely the kids in school. It's the parents.
These days it's very dangerous for parents to not talk to their children. We, as the children, are the future, and you, as the parents, are helping to raise us, to make the world a certain way as we grow up and take over. Parents need to make an effort or the world will be chaos and violence. Parents are the outcome of the way you grow up. If they're there for you, care for you, you grow up a respectful, independent person. If your parents are negligent, you grow up a cold, uncaring person. If the parents take the time and the effort to be there for their children, we will grow up good, and the shootings will be lessened. That's the truth. Parents need to be more involved.
It's frightening to go to school these days, with all these shootings happening. It's sad that these are supposed to be the best days of our lives.
It's easier to blame something intangible and large than it is to blame the parents who raise them that way.
I agree with you that probably the best solution to this problem would be if people were better parents, but I don't think that it has anything to do with whether it is a two parent family or not. Lots of families are split up not because of issues like divorce, but by tragedy. What do you suggest should happen in a case where a car accident or an illness kills one parent early on? Should the surviving parent go out and find a 'replacement' for the sole purpose of giving the kids a good home environment? I think that would end up causing more problems. I think the issue is not the family structure. It doesn't matter whether there are one, two, or three primary care givers, what race they are, what religion, etc. What matters is that they love their kids, take good cre of them, and wish the best for them. For instance, I am sure many kids are raised primarily by loving older siblings, uncles, grandparents, etc, and live in a very healthy home environment; while many others are raised by their biological parents and deal with issues like abuse. People shouldn't raise kids for the 'fun' of it. They should only raise them if they are willing to commit the rest of their lives to their children, and be less selfish about spending their time and resources on the child's happiness (within reason) and well-being.
I just started reading \. right when the "hellmouth" series ended here.
I've seen only a few other posts from high school teachers, so I'll respond to a few points here.
I love teaching high school computer science. It simply rocks. The AP Program stays current and relevant. (dumping C++ in favor of Java) It's unfortunate that there are too many high school students who don't get to experience any kind of real computer training until they graduate. I wish that it was a requirement to take more computer classes in high school in the US.
There is too much bullying going on in the classroom.
Why? I get stuffed with forty students in a classroom when I directly asked my administrators NOT to put anymore students in. My lab only holds 25 students comfortably. It is too damn difficult to keep track of those students.
This leads to the 'warehousing' feeling that most students get. I agree. As a public high school teacher, I always feel like I don't get enough time to talk to each student everyday, to check up on them.
So in many cases it's difficult to find out who started what, who threw the first punch, etc.... Adminstrators and teachers go on very little information.
The school violence will continue to occur.
IMHO, and my six years teaching in the public school system in Arizona, school violence occurs because:
1. Overcrowded classrooms. There have been many studies that indicate that the optimal classroom size is no more than roughly 22 students (I can dig out research if you'd like)
2. Low teacher salaries -- which result in adminstrators hiring whoever has a pulse. These people don't have real training to counsel students, nevermind actually know the curriculum or how to teach it.
3. Underpaid, overworked school counselors, who wind up just having enough time to do schedule changes. I asked our counselors what they really thought their job involved when they were hired: Advising students on careers, getting to know what students need in schools, taking care of emotional problems, listening etc....
I HATE bullying, and one of the reasons I wanted to be a teacher was to make the classroom a safe learning enviroment, but damn is it difficult.
What can you do about it:
1. stop bitching about it. 2. don't blame violent video games, movies, britney spears, etc... 3. Promise that you'll be involved with your kids life until they are 18. (if you want the extra BMW, don't have kids etc) 4. VOTE for your local legislator that supports REAL reform. I want to hear administrators say (Damn we have 10000 people applying for 100 jobs, we have to take the cream of the crop.) 5. Do whatever you can in your local government to make sure that QUALITY teachers get into the classroom, and that class size stays down.
Well enough rant for now....
Columbine and countless other school shootings if these kids parents would take a bit of responsibility and actually be parents to their children.
Today's parents are content to ship their children off to so called "daycare centers" which are nothing more than holding pens to get rid of kids while the parents are off selfishly furthering their careers. We're treating our children like cattle while we go about climbing the corporate ladder so we can afford that shiny new Beamer. Is that really more important than the wellbeing of our nation's future.
Another thing that bothers me is the lack of traditional Christian morals that are being instilled in today's youth. You never hear about a Reverand's son or a child of a devoutly religious family shooting up a school. It seems like today's family's would rather watch WWF Smackdown than enrich themselves with the wholesome teachings of Jesus Christ.
Neither peer pressure, video games, or violent movies will have any negative affect on children if they are taught how to properly deal with such situations. Children need to be taught the difference between fantasy and reality.
Slashdot: Open Source, Closed Minds.
He thought a moment, then: "Well, consider who is saying that; former football players, former cheerleaders. For the most part, after high school, they have nothing. All their time is spent trying to recover their former glory, and of course it becomes more glorious in memory with each year. They did nothing in high school that will allow them to grow and enrich their lives now, and they probably can't even understand that this is not the case for other people. So the football player remembers his victories as he works a dead-end job and gets fat and shapeless, and the cheerleader who married him remembers how pretty she was, as she spends more and more on cosmetics, surgery, and babysitters, trying to remain 18 forever. And life for them sucks. For them, high school was the best years of their lives, and it's imperative that they, and everyone they know, maintain that belief."
He was also the football coach, albeit a good one. He made sure the quarterback got into college on a math scholarship, NOT a sports scholarship. And yes, the team had a winning record.
A witty saying is worth nothing - Voltaire
The fact of the matter is that, whatever course of action is decided upon to try and resolve these issues, it is ridiculous to expect children to "think of themselves as a cohesive group" and "[resist] against the curtailment of everyone's rights." They're children after all.
They're in school for more than rote learning, they're there also to learn how to be a social human being. It is a difficult fact to accept, but children are cruel, and everyone has to deal with that at least once in their early life. This has always been the case in every school in the world, throughout history. Taking that as a steady-state condition, then, the reason, I think, that we have seen a proliferation of juvenile violence in the last several years, is the degradation of the home life. If parents would simply instill better values in their children, which is their job as parents, then this would not be happening. It used to be that children had enough morals and values that anything like this would not have happened, if for no other reason than that they would not want to disappoint their parents. That's no longer the case, and we are seeing the results of that every time we turn on the news to hear about another school shooting.
Trying to blame things like games and the internet is short-sighted, realistically stupid, the wrong idea, but it is politically smart. We all need to remember that politicians are rarely interested in long term solutions, but the quick solutions that will give results during their terms in office. That's part of their job description. At any rate, that's my nickel's worth.
--FatTony
Thanks for posting this essay. This is what I have been saying all along. All the people who are in positions to make changes or simply encourage changes do nothing and turn away from the REAL issues. To often they go for the more 'glitzy' issues then the ones that are the true issues.
Why is it that if a bully attacks someone in school, he might get scolded, detention or even *gasp* some sort of in-school suspension, When if this happened in the Real World(tm), he would be in jail? Schools have too much of a tendancy to look the other way in situations like that.
Students who are caught with some pot get expelled, but those who harass someone to the point where they kill themselves have never gotten more than a slap on the wrist.
It all comes down to basic animal psychology.
/. readers as well) have
You kick a dog often enough, it will either
crumble mentally, or turn on you.
I (and I am sure other
gone through the same thing to varied degrees.
You entertain thoughts at a certain stage of
retalating, then, if the stress is bad enough...
you act. I got to the point of being 3 seconds
away from knifing a 6'4 18-year-old bully in
my high school days...but thank god the principle
was one of those that cared and put an end to that
kind of BS real quick.
We need school admins with a clue. Plain and simple.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
"A child's character education should take priority over his academic education. All educational efforts are basically meaningless unless build on the solid foundation of good character" --Menachem Mendel Schneerson The Lubavitcher Rebbe
Erlang Developer and podcaster
I applaud the kid with the ingenuity to kill others after he has killed himself.
pooptruck
Of course Ashcroft doesn't want to acknowledge this fact. This would bring down his entire religious belief system. Anybody who can kill others after they have killed themselves would be stepping on God's toes ... unless they were aligned with Satan, in such case the ethic of violence would make sense.
It's a common mistake, most likely a typ-o, should have been than instead of then. But it sure does conjure up a funny image of ghosts wandering through the halls with shotguns.
Now that I have kids, I want to make a "Proud Parent of Another Brick in the Wall" bumper sticker, with two walking red hammers to one side. ROTFLMAO!!! Let me know if you make them, I want one!
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Many people drive drunk and survive, yet when someone gets in an accident while drunk we attribute that to the alcohol. This doesn't mean that everyone who drinks will crash, just that drunks are more likely to.
Similarly, not every bullied teen turns killer, but when a teen turns killer we can attribute that partly to the bullying. It's not the only cause, but it's silly to deny that it is a cause.
Re-Read your post, then read your sig.
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Drat: I finally found the link after I posted. Here's the link to CBC National's special on bullying
Just as a point, not all coaches are bad, I was in track and cross country, and I had the best, fairest, most inspirational coaches you could imagine. Now realize I was the worst on the team...
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Nicotine free Amish .sig.
JonKatz wrote:
The problem is after the kids kill themselves, it is their unstopable lust for life that makes them go on killing sprees.
If I carry a pistol, hey, better get an UZI in case someone comes up to me with a desert eagle or some such thing.
That's crazy, and not even us gun-nuts argue it that way. Even in states where you can legally carry a concealed weapon with ease, no one's carrying around rifles and other forms of extreme firepower.
If someone takes after you with a BIG gun, even a SMALL gun is enough to defend yourself. Carrying a big gun doesn't make you tougher.
If you are really getting at "why do we need to have the right to own black, scary-looking rifles?" then that is another topic for another post.
How come when a kid kills people he usually gets sentenced for life in an adult prison? On the other hand if an adult kills a kid, well he usually gets nothing more than a few years in prison.
Talk about double standards.
I agree. The children I see in my neighborhood who cause the most trouble are the same ones whose parents are least interested in actual parenting. Parenting includes more than taking your kids to activities or buying them toys. It is about communicating real values.
I also think our school system is a massive failure. Someone else on this thread suggested that we not extend the school year into the summer, but ban school entirely. I disagree. I think that school should be year-round. These days, kids who have the summer off are completely on their own after about age 10. Those kids who aren't own their own are doomed to a day in a daycare, which is a stultifyingly structured unproductive environment.
But on that same note, past sixth grade, no kids should be in school for more than four hours a day. They should be working at internships and part time jobs... and not fscking fast food, but assisting in adding value to the world and learning to do something (or a variety of somethings) useful at the same time. This should be part of their educational experience and not additive as it is now. It should be coordinated and fairly compulsory. They should be treated with respect and given real responsibilities. Sure, there is still room for activities like sports and debate teams, and all that. But get a kid with a math bent a job in an actuarial firm or a bank or a science lab, and she'll never be stuck in a room with 29 other kids whose primary question is "what good is this junk?" Also, this gives kids an honest chance to see what jobs and work are like.
Further bonus: one of the frequent arguments against homeschooling is the supposed lack of social skill practice. Well, what kind of social skill practice is it to sit in a room of 30 kids listening to some adult drone? How to learn to actually interact in a civilized manner when you're surrounded by other children? School is missing some major lessons that life has to offer and serves to do little more than keep most kids age 12-21 in a kind of social holding tank.
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It has to be a complete culture change - from that of a typically violent, religious-based, keeping-up-with-the-Jones' culture to one where individuality is respected. And that is not likely going to happen in the near future.
The solution to foot-in-mouth disease is to not have any foot-in-mouth disease. Read: get rid of the guns. I know that won't help the poor individuals who will take their own lives or come up with more inventive means of striking out, but it might slow things down. Seriously, what the f*ck does a person need a gun for anyway?
Drop the religious aspect of your society back to the individual's beliefs. Don't ever allow it to creep back into politics or society as a whole. I've been to engineering meetings in the USA where problems encountered in designs were met with a "prayer" session. Sheesh - why don't we just sacrifice a goat or virgin or two to Baal to help our sales team.
Keeping-up-with-the-Jones' is going to be a real tricky thing - this is the result of feedback from a capitalist society - more money tends to breed more money, and a drive to get what is perceived to be better and better things. Some people will be able to afford the "bestest" things (generally the goal of all), most people will be able to afford the "next-to-bestest/acceptable" things, and unfortunately, there are a lot of people who never will - they get left out. I don't know how to counter this one.
Perhaps as the boomers die out, we can influence our children to respect each other's individuality a bit more. Cycles like this occur to counter the previous generation - we just have to wait for the prevaiing group to die for the other extremists to take over.
Oh well, that's all I got's to say - let's see what fallout comes from this...
I donate all spillover Karma to the charity of my choice... Ada was still a babe despite what people may say...
You know, I've come to the decision after working with high school kids that it's a fad. What do I mean by that?
Kids do things to get attention: from their peers, from their parents, from those in authority. That's why kids act out, and that's why kids have interesting modes of dress. That's why kids push for "innovative" music--because it pushes the envelope.
This nature--probing the envelope--is key to understanding this phenomenon. Kids are going to push the envelope: consider bedtime. "Mom, can I stay up 'til 10?" If that works, you push for later and later. If it doesn't, 9:30 is your next offer. Kids push, push, push, until they find the limit.
A loving parent sets those limits. It can really hurt to do that. Hell, it hurts me as a twenty-something working with kids to set those limits on kids for things that adults would do with no recourse [such as alcohol consumption, etc.]. It bothers the snot out of me to tell kids not to drink at their age when I am just 4-10 years older [depending on what age group I'm working with at the time] and can drink most folks I know under the table.
Unfortunately, some parents, rather than set limits, become uninvolved in their kids' lives. Becoming uninvolved is a process--because kids want their parents to be involved, for the most part. Yeah, even at the teen ages, they still want some parental involvement, though they only want it on their terms. The kids keep reaching out for things that aren't there--loving parents who want to know what's going on. And considering that brain development is still going on at that age, they can contemplate things from a whole new perspective without good parental supervision: hence, the idea to go out and take a lot of people out with you.
I contemplated and nearly did commit suicide just five years ago. But while I was at a residential high school where taking out a few of my peers would have gotten me a shitload of publicity, and I did have access to guns, including one of my own, when I was suicidal and wanted attention, I never thought of doing something like killing my peers. But now that a couple deranged people have done it, it now becomes plausible and has mindshare. The "early adopters" have created a market for killing.
I'm sure there are a ton of posts about how kids picking on kids are nothing new. Sure wasn't when my parents were growing up, sure wasn't as I was growing up. That's true. What's different is that there are new methods of acting out in the social conscious. Wonder why teen smoking and drug use is somewhat down? They've found something new to try.
And, like a bad kidney stone, this too, shall pass.
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-- Geof F. Morris
Ah yes. To quote, "Tod: You know, Mrs. Buchman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car -- hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."
Schools are just as equally to blame - for their silence and inaction if nothing else. How many of us have gone to our counselors or teachers or principles for help. "They will not leave me alone. Do nothing to them, but they keep hounding me!" How often has the response been something like, "oh, just ignore them/be nice to them. Everyone gets picked on." Pfft. Things are different.
The dynamics of how who gets picked on and why are different and nobody seems to realize this. Now a days, it's the majority - the people who follow the norm, play sports, wear Abercrombe & Fitch, etc. that are doing the bullying. They often move in packs or groups upon individuals or very small groups of smart/independent thinking people. That's a hell of a lot for a person to cope with. In my grade school days, I've been surrounded by groups of 10 or more other students, all bent on name calling, pushing, etc. There was never any escape and the school never did anything. Often times, I was the one who was punished for making a "big deal out of it" or pushing them back.
The story is the same and goes on much longer. But in my pre-highschool days - a far back as early elementary, this kind of treatment has induced violent behavior. I often fantasized about severely injuring my class mates. I dreamed of bringing a gun to school so I could make people not mess with me. I harbored images of the school's smoldering remains. And yes, you guessed it... this was LONG before I had ever even SEEN a video game. And no, I wasn't listening to goth music either.
Again, this story is nothing new. But one thing is certain, it's worse today for the "social outcasts" than it ever was before. Ashcroft's position is a slap in the face. The schools' continued inaction is a cause for yet more dispare. However, with the sudden increased frequency of school violence, they're going to get to the point where they have to act, out of fear if anything else. One of my friends and I were discussing this issue, and he was of the position that this is the only good thing that will come out of these shooting. Schools may do something about the problem (other than installing metal detectors - those only make the 'jocks' feel save). And maybe, just maybe those who do the bullying will think twice.
Who knows. I was one of the fortunate people who didn't suffer any kind of break down from the treatment. But there are a lot of people who simply cannot take it and will lash out against oppression. Ironic how schools do nothing. That's simply historical fact.
Why bother.
You'll never know how much I owe you for writting that article. I was sitting here in my basement thinking that dying might not be such a bad alternative to going to school tomorrow. Blindly perusing slashdot I came across this and it made me feel infinitely better knowing that life only gets easier. It reminded me of all the things I want for myself and for the people I love. Thanks for saying what I've been hoping.
Seriously, what the f*ck does a person need a gun for anyway?
:-)
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Same reason a person needs a lawyer - to defend oneself against other people with lawyers. We really don't need guns or lawyers, but as soon as one person pulls either a gun or a lawyer on you, you'll need both.
Drop the religious aspect of your society back to the individual's beliefs. Don't ever allow it to creep back into politics or society as a whole. I've been to engineering meetings in the USA where problems encountered in designs were met with a "prayer" session. Sheesh - why don't we just sacrifice a goat or virgin or two to Baal to help our sales team.
Funny, I think, that the unholy marriage of religion and politics were something Jesus seemed to resent.
The only way a state religion can work is if EVERYONE - every last person - supports it, or at least if there's a convenient way for dissenters to move to a neighboring "free" nation that the religious nation isn't planning on conquering. (In many ways a theocracy is a bit like a Communist state - if even one person doesn't buy into it, it starts to collapse.)
Actually, that's not entirely true. A theocracy COULD possibly work if it's not the kind of fundamentalist regime we see in most Christian and Muslim countries - the real problem isn't the religion, or the link to politics, it's that for FAR too many people in the countries I've mentioned, religion amounts to little more than a desire to see everyone else become exactly like you, and for some, it's a means of gaining power. THAT's the real reason we have a separation of church and state - religion is all about interpretation and divine inspiration of unverifiable origin, so all it takes is one Cardinal Ximinez or one Jerry Falwell to start to impose his will onto a religion and then impose that religion onto the state. The only defense is to prevent religion from being imposed onto the state - and so far America has done a shitty job of this, mostly because the lawmakers tend to WANT religion imposed on the state.
Keeping-up-with-the-Jones' is going to be a real tricky thing - this is the result of feedback from a capitalist society - more money tends to breed more money, and a drive to get what is perceived to be better and better things. Some people will be able to afford the "bestest" things (generally the goal of all), most people will be able to afford the "next-to-bestest/acceptable" things, and unfortunately, there are a lot of people who never will - they get left out. I don't know how to counter this one.
Look at the root of the problem: people don't know how to be happy anymore. Unable to find emotional satisfaction, unable to comprehend subtlety, or unwilling to become philosophers who see more beauty in a rundown building than in a mansion, people have tended to latch onto dicksize as a means of happiness. They think if they LOOK happy, they can BE happy - and the only way to look happy is to look like you have more toys than the happy people next door. They shouldn't call 'em yuppies, they should call 'em Happies.
Anyway, it's an amusing situation - a whole sector of people who want big houses they can't live in because every room is a museum, big vehicles that get 8mpg and have 4 wheel drive they'll never use because going off road would get it dirty (I have no problem with people who buy SUVs because they actually intend to use the four wheel drive, but as status symbols they SUCK), and kids they don't even raise. (And yes, I think this tends to pass these same kinds of values on to the next generation.) All because these are the things they see other people having and it certainly makes THEM happy.
Me, I'm thankful I have such weird tastes in stuff. I've gotten cynical in my old age (26) and despite the limited world experience I have, I've nonetheless come to the conclusion that there is NOTHING in this world I can obtain - no stereo system, no car, no woman - that will grant me lasting happiness. There is joy to be had in owning things, which is why I hang out at thrift stores, and I do happen to like having a girlfriend - these things, for me at least, tend to subtly increase the level of joy in my life, but I already know there's no guarantee that ANY of them - or even ALL of them, if I should somehow one day be granted the complete checklist of "stuff I want" (a delightfully implausible list that includes Jennifer Connelly, 109 missing episodes of Doctor Who, various unbuilt Amiga prototypes from over the years, and a winning $250m lottery ticket) - will make me live happily ever after. Nor would I want them to - the struggle to become happy is the point of life. (Even for you religious types, "being happy" means pleasing God, and therefore is the point of life.)
Granted part of the reason I came to this conclusion was that I noticed I never really much liked "cool" things. It's a blessing not to have to judge oneself by other people's standards - and it's paid off, because I can get great deals on the stuff other people throw out.
I don't know how to cure the Happies of their problem. The sad thing is, the ones who were once hippies used to have the answers (insofar as they had simpler tastes) and seem to have forgotten them. But there's another aspect to the problem - the Happies have been conditioned by the media. Come on with a commercial during Seinfeld to tell them this year's SUV brings happiness and they believe you - and once they own one, and can park it in the driveway where their neighbors can drool over it, pretty soon the whole block will have one. How do you decondition people from the media? Hell, most of them don't even realize they AREN'T as happy as they make the neighbors think (and when they do, it's called a midlife crisis) - which means as far as they're concerned, this kind of one-up lifestyle has WORKED. It's a religion, really - and people only ditch a religion when a) they realize how silly it sounds, b) they realize it isn't working for them, or c) they weren't really that deeply into it to begin with.
The problem is that waiting for the boomers to die won't help - the boomers have offspring who have been similarly conditioned.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Please explain how it is possible to first kill yourself, then kill others.
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"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
See the Rough Draft column from Monday for more from the Press.
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OK, getting back to the original subject.
:)
There's been a lot of talk in this thread how guns are used for useful purposes: self defense, to defend against the governmet, etc.
Can you imagine if these same arguments were used by students in real schools???
"Everyone knows that it's dangerous to go to school these days, who knows what sort of whacko's are out there. I'm going to arm myself in self defense."
So why not train and arm all the students in a school just in case one person comes along and decides to start shooting people. If gun control doesn't work, why have gun control in the schools?
The analogy is the same, except for the "children are not the same as adults" argument. There is a point here. Adults generally have more social maturity to handle situations like this better. So it's a matter of scale... 99.9% of adults are responsible with guns, lets say high school children would be about 80-90% responsible in the same environment.
But in this argument, even with the change of scale, wouldn't the arguments be the same? I get the feeling that people here advocating gun posession would still possess their guns even if the odds of violent crimes occuring were a thousand times less. I ask these people:
By the same logic, why not advocate arming school children as well?
Reductio ad adsurdum. Perhaps not quite QED..
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Humans are social animals, if not pack animals, and will tend to derive self worth from their peer group. And between other kids who mock them, teachers who tell them that 'it's nothing to worry about,' the 'it' in this case being, of course, the child's feelings of unworthyness, and parents who often don't notice such things it can get rather lonely. Throw in the fact that the average 10-15 year old is probably somewhere in puberty process, depending on race, sex, and a few other factors, and you get some nasty hormonal imbalances influencing the kids towards behaviour that, a year or two later, they'd never dream of. Oh, and as an aside, zero-tolerance policies are a bad thing; they tend to influence kids into not 'ratting' on friends who are 'talking smack' because they'll get thrown out of school; how do the kids feel when it turns out he wasn't just 'talking smack?' Of course, how do they feel if they do get him kicked out, and it turns out to be nothing?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I preface this by saying that I'm an RF circuits engineer and she's a teacher in a private school that goes pre-K to twelfth grade.
We both are of the opinion that what we're seeing is partly a reflection of the narcissism of the modern classroom. On numerous occasions I've seen reports that rank American high schoolers close to last in the industrialized world for math skills, but they rank themselves as first when polled. For ten years or more we've had this idea of Outcome-Based Education, which is an odd name for a system where the outcome doesn't matter. With OBE, it's how the student feels, not how much they know. We as a society have raised a whole generation of empty egos, and they don't know how to handle anything that might endanger their severely distorted self-concept. I think that the great majority of school violence, from these shootings to inter-class fist fights, stem from this (inherent in kids) over-inflated self concept. Anything that threatens the self-image is more than they can handle, and they lash out.
Also, with more and more kinds coming from two-career families or broken homes we have parents that bend to their kids' every whim out of the parents feelings of guilt. I see some of my wife's colleagues -- teachers no less -- doing this. The incessant cry of, "Gimme!" is never met with a, "no." Children are taught that they deserve and are entitled to whatever they want, without exception. Their little egos are continually puffed up both at home by unwitting parents and at school by institutionallized emotional poisoning.
Is it right? No. What should be done about it? I say, increase the torment! Call it Tough Love. People need to be deflated from time to time so that they don't get these dangerous egos. They need to see how they're not that smart, they're not that tough, they're not that athletic, they're not that pretty, they're not that anything. In a word, they need humility. They need to know that it's ok not to get everything you want; in fact, nobody has ever received everything they wanted. They need to learn not to take themselves so seriously or to be so brittle when things don't go their way.
One thing that's missing from just about every aspect of modern life is humility. To be humble in America is to be weak. To be unimportant. To be laughed at. These are the things that must change.
If you think the problem is the availability of guns, think about this. The US has had easily available guns for 200 years. In fact, guns are far more difficult to get than they've ever been. Yet, this problem of children going berserk killing people is only a relatively recent phenomenom.
If guns are the problem, why hasn't this always been a problem throughout history?
Guns are not the problem, people are. The problem is cultural. Not all modern cultural trends are bad (I don't think video games are), but quite a few are.
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
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first - sorry, i shouldn't have bothered with my previous post. it was kinda pointless. i WAS shocked that i got FP tho, first time ever. not even intentional.
anyways, my 2 cents- i think the whole thing about bullying is pretty simple. some kids are jerks, some are not, and the rest float in between somewhere. The jerks make life hell for the "easy targets", the defenseless who won't garner any sympathy. witness the phrase "man, look at those pants. he had it coming. snarf snarf snarf". coaches push to fight against the weak- so the jocks naturally gravitate towards the oppression of the weak.
the worst thing about all of this is that when there IS a backlash (columbine etc) the only thing that happens is blame is thrown around and the easy targets become easier. according to a friend in high school, the school shootings that have been happening actually caused an INCREASE in the violence and general crappiness in his school. the jerks in the school used his long blue hair as a target- one even tried to plant a "hit list" on him. he's been frisked numerous times by a not-at-all-attractive vice principal, more than anyone else and on very shaky grounds.
my point is... crud. i forgot. i think it had to do with the fact that being a teenager sucks. it always has, and always will. someone told me "these are the best days of your life, jeremy"... i wanted to kill myself then.
--endcycle--
I was a geek all through school, ostracized and bullied (Even more so since my little brother 12" shorter than me and extremely athletic could kick my @ss in a fight, good thing we are really tight).
I didn't kill anyone or go postal. WHY? Because I had good parents who recognized when something was bothering me and dragged it out of me. I say a culture where parents don't give two shits about whats going on in their lives and let their kids have free rein of their lives is what causes killer kids. This is not an issue of what the schools/teachers/media can do, but what good parenting can solve. Call me out of line or whatever, but I really think a two parent loving family, that is attentive will prevent 99.9% of these incidents from occuring! THATS ALL THERE IS TOO IT!
Rule of Life Number 2: Remember, it can all go to hell at any minute. --Jimmy Buffet
It's funny, but when I was in junior high, I remember talking to my Dad for a while about girls. Not the "this is how the plumbing works" talk, but more prosaic "why don't you ask girls out" kinda stuff.
The thing I remember most about that conversation was that he told me, "Don't believe anything anyone else says to you. These are, bar none, the hardest years of your life. It all gets easier from here." And, he was right. By the time I was a high school junior, I was more or less comfortable with my geekiness, and resolved to just have a good time being me. My senior year, the group of geeks I hung out with mysteriously turned into the most popular group of kids in the school. It was nuts. Large numbers of us still hang out together, ten years later, and we even have actual lives.
I was lucky that things got better for me, I know. But I suspect that the improvement in my circumstances stemmed from an understanding that life wasn't all wine and roses, and I didn't have to act like it was all the time.
OK, this is when I enjoy Katz - heartfelt, human, and without bizarre comparisons or conspiracy theories.
In our country people like to blame "outside" elements - the that-not-like-me. It is games (which I don't play), music (which I don't like), and the Internet (which I'm too ignorant to use).
However, what is missed is that a problem this widespread (violence, suicide, bullying) is not going to come from outside - it is going to come from within the culture. That is hard for many people to accept.
Americans are people with a great deal of pride, but not all of that pride is earned. We visualize ourselves often as the Light of the World.
We're not good at introspection (having only 200+ years of history limits our shared experiences).
So, we don't want to deal with the fact that if something is going wrong in our country at large there is a problem in the culture at large. It would be having to admit we're not perfect. It would be having to admit we can make mistakes. It would mean hard work to fix things. It would mean confronting ourselves.
We are a violent culture. Wether we justify it by God, Darwin, or History, we figure nothing is wrong with taking what we want, hurting those different, and stomping around as if we'll never take a fall. Repercussions will never happen because, of course, we are so wonderful - and if they do "someone else" must be to blame.
Someday, America, will have to collectively examine itself.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
As much as this a very accurate and useful point to make I think most people who read Slashdot are going to go 'duh'. I mean it's very obvious to those of us who grew up in such a life and contemplated escaping it all ourselves.
If this editorial piece were in a major newspaper or on the six o'clock news - it would be substantially more useful. This is really a case where Mr. Katz is preaching to the converted (again).
To make this piece useful I encourage everyone to print it out and mail it into your local newspapers and news stations. And perhaps the people who really need to be reading this kind of essay will get the opportunity.
I've been amazed in Canada how bullying has taken the forefront of the local, provincial, and national news in the last year, and specifically in the last few months. After several teen suicides, a few key surveys of school age kids, and a rather well done documentary on bullying on CBC's evening news show "The National" that provoked an enormous outpouring of phone calls and emails to the station that the next night they had to do a follow up the following night, to the commercials on TV and the radio "bullying is dead serious", Canada seems to have taken the hint. Bullying => teen violence, and bullying is the root source of the problem. BC's government seems to have gone off on this weird tanget for rating video games, but that story is eclipsed here by what's now perceived to be a epedemic problem across the province and the country.
Last night on the news I saw a segment on an elementary school talking about anger management and bullying to 5 year olds. Things are starting to *happen* here. I've got more confidence that my own kids (the oldest now three) will be able to go to a school where the consequences of bullying are recognized as severe.
All I can suggest: Write your local media. Find a good set of journalists who can do a *good* job of getting down to the school level and investigate what kids are actually saying. We had one of our (two) major networks do a huge story on bullying and the whole thing started to snowball once the general public had a chance to react.
Pointing out that whole "Its the mental condition that get kids teased in the first place" - that's bull. Kids get teased because they're there. They get teased for anything at all that makes them different; this, at least in my case, may have had depression as a contributing factor, but I never heard anyone coming up to me, saying "I'm teasing you because you're depressed."
What's more likely is that either a) the teasing leads to depression, mental or clinical (I wonder, can someone be depressed during puberty, and then the body thinks that the *standard*, thereby causing clinical depression?) or b) the depression leads to unusual habits/attitudes, leading to getting teased.
Finally, what I think few people tend to forget is that kids can't get out of these situations. They're stuck with the people at school for years, live in the same neighborhood, have a tight community that they can't get out of; and seeing ways to make the future brighter isn't exactly something people teach. Taking away their video games isn't going to fix the problem. Just may make them stop specifically *shooting* one another. The problem's still there.
Whatever you do... don't read this.
Can you name ONE "fundamentalist Christian theocracy" on the planet at this time? No, because there are no significant Christian theocracies in this era.
There are, however, many Islamic countries which we would classify as having a theocratic system. The laws of government are derived from the Koran and Islamic religious tradition- it has nothing to do with, as you state, "a desire to see everyone else become exactly like you, and for some, it's a means of gaining power". Do you really believe this, or are you just saying it because it seems like it must be true because the alternative is to imagine a large body of people sharing an absolute religious worldview- a concept that, in our post-Christian agnostic consumerist society is too alien to fathom?
Visit one. I was in Jordan last year. The Islamic citizens there aren't pod-people with a hive mentality looking to homogenize themselves- they're human beings with beliefs that they value above their own lives. Also contrary to your statement, they have less power as citizens than you could possibly imagine, and belief in Islam will ensure that they remain without power or freedom as we know it. Yet they still believe..
As a Christian, I disagree stongly with their religious worldview. But try to have a little more respect for people with differing beliefs, and allow for the possibility that the fact of someone else's differing opinion may not be indication of their inferiority as individuals or thinkers.
Now don't go flaming me just yet, these are broad generalizations, lets look at these in a bit more depth.
Quality Time
In our society there is a huge increase in 2 working parent families. Most day care services are staffed by some of the poorest trained lowest paid workers in the United States today. A child raised in this environment is usually introduced to other children via the law of the jungle. i.e. those that can exert their force and power will and you will bend, or go home bloody from "falling" off the jungle-jim.
A parent's time is hard to come by. Companies DEMAND more and more out of their staff (especially those of us in tech or management and on salary!) This in turn gives us less and less time for ourselves, and also less time for our families. Then comes the fabrication of quality time. The idea that spending the "right kind of time" will be ok and you won't have to spend as much time with your children. Try to find a good scientific study about quality time (good luck). The find a study about just plain old "parental involvement". Quality time is a crock designed to make over worked/stressed parents feel better about themselves.
Cost to fix? High, companies would have to stop demanding 12/15 hour days, perhaps even give mothers more time off for maternity. Help provide proper day care. this adds up to $$$$$
School Systems
School Systems Schools are designed with cost in mind, and it is cheaper to build a BIG school for thousands of students then to build several little schools for say 250-500 students. This leads to a system where students can easily get lost, be over looked and hide. There are simply too many students, and our current Jr and Sr years are nothing more than a fashion show in many schools. The fix would be to build smaller schools, and hire more teachers. This of course costs $$$, and trust me the BABY BOOMERS (i.e. the me generation) wants absolutely nothing to do with raising taxes or paying for a good education system. Of course raise taxes for Socialist security to keep it solvent, but the hell with our children! (Sorry, I live in an area with a lot of Senior Citizens, and that attitude is so pervasive it makes me sick)
Improper treatment of children and adolescents
Our society, our advertisers and to a lesser extent each of use are treating adolescents as adults. This can be seen in malicious humor directed at them, in advertisements and in their ability to commit "adult" crimes. It's so funny that our society must be PC (nee see the "re-education" of John Rocker) but we will happily laugh along with the sitcom that makes fun of the "geek", that chastises the girl that is "over wieght" (i.e. she doesn't look like she spent 8 months in Ausweitz) etc. Wow, strange world we live in.
To some extent adolescents WANT to be treated like they are older, and I did too when I was 15-16 etc. BUT this is the age when one learns coping skills, when one learns how to deal with adversity and so forth. A minor incident for an adult can feel like a life threatening tragedy to some children/adolescents. People need to keep that in mind, adolescents aren't adults yet.
Agree with me or not, the cost to solve these problems are high, they will take time, and lets face it video games and rap songs are a symptom not a cause. The politicos will point to the John Rockers of the world (and who cares what he thinks anyway???) and have him get "sensitivity" training while happily ignoring millions of school aged children. PC will simply be a way to silence different points of view, while allowing daily doses of hurtful propaganda that makes some companies rich right on through.
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
No matter what Hillary says, that phrase is important because it points closer to what it is that allows for the evil suggestion of a student's Final Solution to enter his brain and seem like the Only Solution.
:)
Stay with me here, I think I have part of the answer, and a damn sight bigger part than a politician would dare try to tackle.
The "village" in this instance is the environment of the kid; this includes parents, school authorities, his peers and friends, TV, video games and computer games. From this village he forms his opinion of the world and obtains a sense of 'connectedness'. 'Connectedness' in this sense represents his relationship with his village: i.e., he gets what he needs from his environment and in return he is responsible for contributing his part to the environment ('he' is generic here, okay ladies?); he feels connected to it, a part of it.
But our village is burnt out.
The parents have skewed values and pursue money at the expense of time with their children. The child is latch-key and unsupervised and unloved in a real sense.
The school environment is composed of overworked and burnt-out teachers: sure they Could care, but who Cares if they Care? So none of them connect with the troubled teen in a realistic manner. And the teen feels inadequate to approach them for help; it certainly isn't encouraged in this day and age. Teachers are Not Parents, but they play them in the classroom.
And now for the Active elements in the Boy's young life! TV actively plays teens against their parents, portraying them as the enemy and corrupt and evil. Kids buy into this because they want power and ally themselves with a 'villager' who appears to be their ally. But it isn't their ally; it is their 'wormtongue', placing messages of destruction into the child's mind. No one would argue that TV is a poor parent for a child. TV actively increases the level of anxiety in the teen's mind... I could go on and on about this, but I think we all agree its fairly evident.
Finally, and in league with the media, is the interactive world, the electronic world of messages that play into the natural tendencies of a child's aggression. He doesn't roughhouse with Dad, he doesn't play capture the flag with his friends, he isn't wrestling in the gym. No, he is sitting in front of a screen blowing the bejeezus out of a bunch of frightening images, getting a subtle (not so subtle?) rush of adrenaline (adrenaline, the drug of choice for Americans, bar none) in doing so. And, as Ashcroft correctly if misguidedly asserts, learning how to kill.
Finally, add the complete humiliation day in and day out of his peers, the final element of his village, taunting and ridiculing him freely and
without supervision. Nothing will stop this daily terror.
Oh no, add one more thing.
Give him a gun.
Therein lies the recipe for these disasters. And when you add the sensationalism and copycat solicitation provided by the media, you really shouldn't be surprised in the monsters you have created.
It takes a village, alright. A village of village idiots.
Last thing. All you single-cause zealots who use these tragedies to foster your cause are doing nothing to help. You add heat but little light to the discussion. Banning guns would help but it ain't gonna happen. The Ten Commandments in school halls would remind us all who is really in charge here (White Christians, not God), but would lessen the alienation of our troubled youth not one whit. Punishing Hollywood, punishing parents, laying blame on Any Single Thing is perpetuating a vicious spiral that gets us nowhere. So please, if you care to respond to any of this, keep that in mine when you do. It is a complicated problem and it might even be one that cannot be solved today or even ever. But we can't make headway if we fall back into old and tired arguments. Not that the NRA isn't an idiot, but that it is too thickheaded and stubborn. Not that Christians aren't the new Nazis, but that calling them names doesn't allow them to trust America enough to open a dialog. We need a brand new paradigm, just like the old paradigm that we once held sacred, albeit only for the landed gentry. Perhaps if we can extend it to All Men and Women and Children, the village can have meaning again for a nation of alienated and Disconnected youth.
(Reprinted from a Plastic article I wrote. I only got one karma point, but a bunch of replies.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
i don't know.... my brother just made a bumper sticker as a spoof of the "my kid beat up your honor student"....
:)
"my kid shot your bully in the head"
with a doom background.
--endcycle--
One thing Katz missed in an otherwise very good article is the termonology battle. Kid in school are victims of "bullying"? I think not.
They're victims of: Assault, Simple Battery, Agrevated Assault, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Misdemeanor and Felony Harrasment, all degrees of Sexual Assault (with 3rd degree happening to your average attractive girl around 40 times per day), Extortion, Robbery, Theft, Racketeering (a group organized for the purpose of an illegal activity) and countless other very real crimes.
So long as we continue to convince students either a: that the criminal behavior in which they are engaged is acceptable (or, at worst, subject to minimal action taken outside of the criminal justice system it would be in in any other context) or b: that their complaints regarding criminal actions being taken against them aren't to be taken seriously we will continue to have large numbers of students taking their own lives or, in much smaller numbers, those of others.
I think that policymakers focus on guns, games, etc. because they can be eliminated using traditional authoritarian police measures from schools, homes and the other places where children live. Every parent, no matter whether they abuse their child or are a moidel parent, can feel better when they remove evil games or install software to spy on kids or set up a snitch line. That is why law enforcement finds these approaches politically useful.
Cultural change against bullying must come from the kids themselves. Perhaps they need to think of themselves as a cohesive group with a common interest and goal.. in which case, resistance against the curtailment of everyone's rights would be a good option.
Goat sex free since 2001
It feels to me that parents want to point fingers at anything other than themselves for their children's problems. For instance, Columbine - lets blame music and the colour black. The more interest parents take in their childrens' lives, the quicker to help and slower to punish, the more trust children should be able to feel in their parents; these are all issues that should be addressed. Not "what should we ban for the sake of our children". That's why they hate South Park, it is a cleverly executed, very accurate parody of modern society.
Claric
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There's no problem that cannot be solved with a suitable amount of high explosives
When I was younger, I was very pale, very small, and had a very sharp tongue. I also grew up without a father and instead being raised by my drill sergeant mother and spineless door-knob step father. The Pink Floyd album "The Wall" has special meaning for me.
From the 5th grade to the 9th grade, I was the target of constant ridicule and physical violence from other students. Invariably, these students had social problems that they were unable to handle. So they looked for a target on which to vent. My poor people skills, high intellegence, sarcastic tone, and effeminant manerisms made me an ideal target. My mother had always indoctrinated me with non-violence. So when I was the target of abuse from other students, I always backed down. And even if I hadn't I figured I was smaller than everyone else, so I would have lost anyway. Dating was also hell for me since I was exactly the opposite of what every highschool girl wants.
Ashcroft said video games contribute to an "ethic of violence."
Video games, violent and otherwise, were an escape for me. had those been taken away, I'm sure I would have vented in more destructive ways.
The question really is whether vicious kids and hostile school environments are turning kids into killers. It's a question neither politicians nor the media seem to want to ask.
I suspect that's because politics and the media tend to attract extroverted people. These types of people, in my opinion, would tend to be the popular people at school. So drawing on their own school experiences would be useless in understanding the plight of these targeted children.
What makes big news -- and what doesn't -- is always telling. We hear a lot about kids who get gunned down in schools by their peers. We usually hear even more about the evil influences on their lives, from gaming to violent TV and movies to the Net. Yet a vastly greater number kill themselves because of their peers. That doesn't draw many headlines or stories on the evening news, or denunciations from the President.
The media is in business to make money. And sensation sells. That's why they cover it. And if they can promote their liberal agneda in the process, all the better. No one wants to hear about how johnny got beaten up on the way home from school for the fourth time this week.
As usual, the government has tended to blame video games and violent movies and TV shows. Aschroft said "the entertainment industry, with it's video games and the like, which sometimes literally teach shooting and all, we've got to ask ourselves, how do we as a culture ... be more responsible."
LOL. I know our public schools are bad, but even the worst educated students can figure out how to fire a gun. They don't need a video game to learn that. I hate it when old conservative politicians try to find some "morally reprehensible" activity, one they don't engage in themsemves, on which to blame society's problems. Morality is part of the answer, not the answer.
Psychologists and researchers report that bullying, taunting or constant ridicule by peers is often a major factor in these suicides, as well as a constant thread running through the horrific series of school shootings.
This is bullshit. A student fearing a shooting at their school is like a passenger on a plane fearing a plane crash. I guess the APA has to get their gun control agenda in there somewhere.
Kids who are non-conformist, rebellious, individualistic or different in other ways are routinely subjected to harassment all kinds, as well as life in schools that cling to outdated curriculums, punish non-conformity and isolate individuals.
It's not just the goths. All I worked hard at being normal.
Yet 81 percent of Americans told the Gallup they blame the Internet for Columbine.
This is because that's what the media told them to believe
A handful of schools have instituted anti-bullying and harrassment programs, but the popular media and most politicians seem much more interested in kids who go over the edge and shoot others than in the many more who are driven over the edge and kill themselves. Maybe it's time to shift focus.
I'll believe it when I see it. And that is why my four kids are in a private school. There's no more powerful weapon to get schools to fix a problem than money.
I have a very clear opinion as to the cause of schools shootings. You can agree or not. I don't care. But it goes something like this:
1. In the lower grades, the "killer" student is ridiculed. Singled out by the other class mates as someone who is different. Maybe they look different, like a very pale person in sunny california. Or an over weight person at a very athletics-oriented high school. Or maybe their parents are poor, so their clothes are an issue. Who knows.
2. Then the killer student either goes to someone they can trust and gets nowhere or the have no one to go to. For me, the people I trusted did nothing.
3. The student feels trapped. Nothing is resolved. The physical and emotional abuse goes on and on, unchecked. Somewhere around now, the student may exhibit emotional or behavioral problems and is more than likely placed on some kind of drug.
4. Then the killer student reaches puberty. The student is now feeling a volatile mixture of self-destructive feelings, poor self-esteem, and unbridled rage.
5. What happens next depends on the student and how they were brought up. If they were brought up in a religious, but not too religious home, with caring, if out of touch parents, they simply kill themselves while leaving a note designed to exact the maximum pain on the ones responsible. If the student was brought up in a home where the parents had no involvement at all, or were really out of touch, and the student has a weak moral background, they may decide to take out as many students as possible on their way out.
In any event, suicides, and shootings are designed to send a strong message to people who aren't listening, while putting an end to the student's pain.
I was close to suicide on many occaisions. I was constantly considering ways to end my life. I eventually decided that the only ways available to me were slashing wrists, jumping from my high-rise apartment building, or jumping in front of a subway train. None were certain or instant enough for me. Salvation for me was puberty which finally hit in the 9th grade. I grew nearly a foot in one year. And over a summer vacation, nearly all of the bullying stopped. Now I'm 6'5" and 270lbs. People tend to leave me alone now. My manerisms are also very different now.
What these kids need today is a good moral background. And good parenting from both parents. If every child got this, the targets would survive the bullying and the bullies wouldn't need to. But parents/adults/politicians don't want to hear this. They want a scapegoat, an easy solution that doesn't involve a behavor change for the parents. Today it's the internet and first person shooters. When I was growing up, it was heavy metal and D&D. Tomorrow it will be something else. Is it really so hard to see?
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.