Laid back attitude is not lethargy, but it is not a spirited attitude either.
I don't live to work, I only work as much as I need to in order to live as comfortably and securely as I need.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about - the kind where you do something because you have to, and nothing more.
don't work to make YOU rich, and I certainly have no loyalty to you (my dear corporatist employer, not you the poster) since you're showing no loyalty to me.
Well, as an employer (not yours ofcourse, but as someone else's), I'll say this (paraphrasing JWZ) - I'd rather have people who'd work and make a company big, than those that want to work for a big company.
I don't want loyalty, but I do want you to give me your 100%.
Laid-back attitude is healthy for human beings, you know? Maybe Europeans get fewer ulcers - I don't know if it's the case, but it certainly is the idea.
If our ancestors were laid back, we'd still be at the bottom end of the food chain. The only reason species survive and evolve is because of the need to be pushed to the limit and to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why the US is on top of things. Laid back attitude is good if you are on a holiday, not if you're working. And definitely not if you are working for me!
I worked for a European company during the 90s and I spent a lot of time working in Paris and London. I haven't noticed anything like this. The company was a startup, and a typical day for everyone was from 08h00 until around 19h00. Nobody was slacking or demanding 5 weeks vacation.
Like I said, my experience is only from Scandinavia, I cannot really talk for other parts of Europe. I will however say that I've had good experience in London, in general.
I would imagine that Paris and London are perhaps different from the Nordic region, but I can assure you that the attitude I mention is thick in the Scandinavian countries.
You have to be careful what you mean by "the same thing". If it is sitting in the office for more hours, then sure.
Ah, a strawman argument. I never mentioned quality, I merely said that for the same task (with the same quality, deadlines and the like), I would rather have people who are willing to work flexible hours and are paid less.
It is impossible to micromanage people, so there are good and bad programmers everywhere. US, Europe, Asia - they all have their share of good, bad and the ugly.
Given three (good) programmers from across these regions, if I were to hire two, I'd hire those that were willing to work harder (yes, and that includes not taking days off when things are on a tightline and working at odd hours).
And lest you pull another strawman on me, harder given the same quality of work.
Given this, I would choose an American or an Asian programmer. Mind you, I've met some excellent programmers from Europe, I'm merely saying that they tend to ask more days off and work less hours during the week, or are really not flexible when it comes to taking their days off.
Yes, but by your own account - would you rather have someone in a developed country money to buy their spankin' new Corvette, or provide money to 20 Indians to achieve a decent standard of living?
Sure, it does not make economic sense, but it does seem like a nice thing to do.:-)
I think there will be an economic balance of sorts, when cost of living in India increases and so does their purchasing power, at which point they _will_ have enough buying power.
Well, okay - I've a small startup which is trying to get into the Nordic region. I cannot speak for the whole of Europe, but I can speak for my experience in Scandinavia so far.
But one thing I've noticed is that Scandinavians in general are averse to working long hours, or go that extra mile to make things happen. Even more importantly, they expect several paid days off and are lacking in a spirit of capitalism that I've noticed in the US.
For instance, bang in the middle of last week, we were told that it is mid-summer, and the Swedes are off for a holiday in some island for the week. This is not the only instance, either - when there is an important or unexpected client call that comes in, folks are usually unwilling to work late or come in early, even for overtime, or be there.
On the other hand, I've noticed the exact opposite in the US and India. Sure, folks do take their days off, but they are most certainly willing to sacrifice their holiday or their odd night's sleep.
We are a startup, and we do not have enough resources for everything and everyone, so these things are a much bigger problem for us, than for most other bigger companies.
The attitude in Europe that I've noticed in general is the fact that no matter what, they should somehow be given their holidays and they would take their days off, come what may - that's a hard thing to sustain in a corporate, capitalistic setting.
When you find others who are willing to do the same thing cheaper, and willing to be flexible, you would quite obviously go with them. That is the problem.
As an individual, I can completely understand that you might need a vacation, and it's a cultural factor, too. But folks in India (and the US) are a lot more ready to come work during holidays, or during emergency situations, than folks in Europe.
I've noticed that there is a general lethargy, or laid-back attitude while doing business in Europe. As a capitalist and a PHB, as you put it, this does not go down all that well with folks.
Jobs will come back to the US, because Americans will work hard, innovate and stay on top. If it's not the IT industry, it would be something else - and it's the American companies that are making the big bucks, too. However, I cannot say the same for Europe.
The attitude in Europe is a little disturbing, and they seem to lack the spirit of willing to push themselves to the edge, of going that extra mile, to succeed. Unless that changes, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
The parent also misses a very vital point - a lot of folks join the military because they like it.
I know several father-son (and mother/daughter) military folks, and those who'd choose the armed forces no matter what. And several people who joined the military because it gives them a lifestyle that would otherwise be not possible for them.
Some people see honor in this, and choose to serve their nation. For some, it's just a way out of poverty - the benefits are quite good.
It's whiners like the parent that sit in their homes and talk absolute nonsense without knowing anything about the state of the US military today. If the US military started drafting, it would hurt the military today, not help it - the only way a draft would ever happen is if there was a war in or around the American soil.
And it's evolution, technology gets better and people realize that their old, buggy business model does not work.
And DoubliClick just can't come to terms with the fact that their obselete (and annoying business model) doesn't work anymore. So what do they do? Rather than evolve, they fret and fume.
Not to mention the fact that a lot of us (esp. students) tend to have cellphones that were registered in one city, that we hold on to for a long time.
My cellphone number is based is Atlanta, although I've since lived in New Mexico and am now in Cincinnati - so, while it may seem crazy, it does make a lot of sense to students or folks who travel a lot.
At the peak of the outsourcing boom, people were outsourcing to just about any random company without running through their credibility or history.
As a result, they ended up having contracts with people who didn't care all that much about their data, or what it meant. This is another example of why that's so screwed up.
Now, things will even out. All the smaller outsourcing firms will lose out and only the big players will remain - they may charge more, but they also pay more and will usually have procedures in place that will prevent this sort of thing.
This is a good thing, because things will even out, some may choose to go to another firm, or some may come back here to the US. Either way, the market will eventually stabilize.
Curious, Linux is cheaper to buy (can't get much better than free). And Linux certainly works well (although in fairness we don't know what you business is). And Linux is as cheap to implement as W2K, unless of course you were already a Windows shop when you started the analysis. Then this was a momentum thing.
To paraphrase JWZ, Linux is free if your time does not mean much.
If you are an enterprise, finding Windows expertise is cheap and easy, and setting up a Windows straight out of the box is a breeze.
More importantly, commercial apps support Windows a lot more than Linux, not to mention the fact that there is an inherent instability associated with Linux in the enterprise market.
Higher UID, much lower IQ. Ofcourse, we all know how much of a factor a UID is in gauging the intellect and maturity of people.
*shudder*
Do you even know how stupid your original post sounded? You make fairly intelligent comments from time to time, but that post was just so full of crap. I'd strongly suggest that you read up on what you're commenting before you go about saying things.
But hey, this is Slashdot. Not that it would matter...
Well, you work for them - quite obviously, whatever you do during that time belongs to them.
However, the difference is that they are willing to credit you for that, and quite possibly manage it if it were to grow into something substantial.
Most big companies don't do that - you do so much for them, and some bean counter comes along and takes credit while you are left hanging. That is the difference.
On the other hand, if you really think you have an idea that is Earth-shattering, you are quite free to work on it on your _personal_ time, on the weekends or otherwise. Nobody and nothing is stopping you.
(just because you are salaried does not mean that Google owns your soul, there are such things as personal possessions, you know?)
FK, the thing is that there are quite a lot of very excellent AC posts, and it is worthwhile putting up with some trolls rather than remove any chance of seeing those posts at all - and a lot of those posts are by folks who never bother getting an account.
In fact, I was an AC/lurker for the longest time, and created my account much later.
Personally, I think that ACs are a part of the Slashdot culture, and add a flavor of sorts to the entire Slashdot experience.
That has, after all, worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, North Korea, Haiti, Panama, Kosovo, Iran, and India.
As a matter of fact, it has worked in India, and quite well too - since the day they have gotten independence from the British in 1947, at least.
In a country of 1.2 billion people, majority Hindus, they've a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister and a Catholic Caucasian female ruling party president. In fact, it's worked better than it does for the US, where except for two Presidents, every other one has been a Caucasian Protestant male.
Not to mention that India has a free market economy which has been growing by leaps and bounds. And it's quite unsettling that you would compare India (which is quite a broad-minded secular democracy with a growing economy) with countries like Afghanistan, North Korea and Iran - you, sir, just proved that you're as ignorant an idiot as the parent poster you were abusing.
Funnily enough, this was seen outside Georgia Tech's College of Computing building on Valentine's day.
The irony of it? GTech (and particularly the CS department) hardly has any women at all to begin with. I'm convinced that most of the women they show in the stats are either professors or janitors.:-/
Slashdot Mirror
Laid back attitude is not lethargy, but it is not a spirited attitude either.
I don't live to work, I only work as much as I need to in order to live as comfortably and securely as I need.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about - the kind where you do something because you have to, and nothing more.
don't work to make YOU rich, and I certainly have no loyalty to you (my dear corporatist employer, not you the poster) since you're showing no loyalty to me.
Well, as an employer (not yours ofcourse, but as someone else's), I'll say this (paraphrasing JWZ) - I'd rather have people who'd work and make a company big, than those that want to work for a big company.
I don't want loyalty, but I do want you to give me your 100%.
Laid-back attitude is healthy for human beings, you know? Maybe Europeans get fewer ulcers - I don't know if it's the case, but it certainly is the idea.
If our ancestors were laid back, we'd still be at the bottom end of the food chain. The only reason species survive and evolve is because of the need to be pushed to the limit and to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why the US is on top of things. Laid back attitude is good if you are on a holiday, not if you're working. And definitely not if you are working for me!
I worked for a European company during the 90s and I spent a lot of time working in Paris and London. I haven't noticed anything like this. The company was a startup, and a typical day for everyone was from 08h00 until around 19h00. Nobody was slacking or demanding 5 weeks vacation.
Like I said, my experience is only from Scandinavia, I cannot really talk for other parts of Europe. I will however say that I've had good experience in London, in general.
I would imagine that Paris and London are perhaps different from the Nordic region, but I can assure you that the attitude I mention is thick in the Scandinavian countries.
You have to be careful what you mean by "the same thing". If it is sitting in the office for more hours, then sure.
Ah, a strawman argument. I never mentioned quality, I merely said that for the same task (with the same quality, deadlines and the like), I would rather have people who are willing to work flexible hours and are paid less.
It is impossible to micromanage people, so there are good and bad programmers everywhere. US, Europe, Asia - they all have their share of good, bad and the ugly.
Given three (good) programmers from across these regions, if I were to hire two, I'd hire those that were willing to work harder (yes, and that includes not taking days off when things are on a tightline and working at odd hours).
And lest you pull another strawman on me, harder given the same quality of work.
Given this, I would choose an American or an Asian programmer. Mind you, I've met some excellent programmers from Europe, I'm merely saying that they tend to ask more days off and work less hours during the week, or are really not flexible when it comes to taking their days off.
Yes, but by your own account - would you rather have someone in a developed country money to buy their spankin' new Corvette, or provide money to 20 Indians to achieve a decent standard of living?
:-)
Sure, it does not make economic sense, but it does seem like a nice thing to do.
I think there will be an economic balance of sorts, when cost of living in India increases and so does their purchasing power, at which point they _will_ have enough buying power.
Well, okay - I've a small startup which is trying to get into the Nordic region. I cannot speak for the whole of Europe, but I can speak for my experience in Scandinavia so far.
But one thing I've noticed is that Scandinavians in general are averse to working long hours, or go that extra mile to make things happen. Even more importantly, they expect several paid days off and are lacking in a spirit of capitalism that I've noticed in the US.
For instance, bang in the middle of last week, we were told that it is mid-summer, and the Swedes are off for a holiday in some island for the week. This is not the only instance, either - when there is an important or unexpected client call that comes in, folks are usually unwilling to work late or come in early, even for overtime, or be there.
On the other hand, I've noticed the exact opposite in the US and India. Sure, folks do take their days off, but they are most certainly willing to sacrifice their holiday or their odd night's sleep.
We are a startup, and we do not have enough resources for everything and everyone, so these things are a much bigger problem for us, than for most other bigger companies.
The attitude in Europe that I've noticed in general is the fact that no matter what, they should somehow be given their holidays and they would take their days off, come what may - that's a hard thing to sustain in a corporate, capitalistic setting.
When you find others who are willing to do the same thing cheaper, and willing to be flexible, you would quite obviously go with them. That is the problem.
As an individual, I can completely understand that you might need a vacation, and it's a cultural factor, too. But folks in India (and the US) are a lot more ready to come work during holidays, or during emergency situations, than folks in Europe.
I've noticed that there is a general lethargy, or laid-back attitude while doing business in Europe. As a capitalist and a PHB, as you put it, this does not go down all that well with folks.
Jobs will come back to the US, because Americans will work hard, innovate and stay on top. If it's not the IT industry, it would be something else - and it's the American companies that are making the big bucks, too. However, I cannot say the same for Europe.
The attitude in Europe is a little disturbing, and they seem to lack the spirit of willing to push themselves to the edge, of going that extra mile, to succeed. Unless that changes, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
Or worse yet, from Americans themselves.
The parent also misses a very vital point - a lot of folks join the military because they like it.
I know several father-son (and mother/daughter) military folks, and those who'd choose the armed forces no matter what. And several people who joined the military because it gives them a lifestyle that would otherwise be not possible for them.
Some people see honor in this, and choose to serve their nation. For some, it's just a way out of poverty - the benefits are quite good.
It's whiners like the parent that sit in their homes and talk absolute nonsense without knowing anything about the state of the US military today. If the US military started drafting, it would hurt the military today, not help it - the only way a draft would ever happen is if there was a war in or around the American soil.
Ignore the parent, s/he's just a troll.
Well put.
And it's evolution, technology gets better and people realize that their old, buggy business model does not work.
And DoubliClick just can't come to terms with the fact that their obselete (and annoying business model) doesn't work anymore. So what do they do? Rather than evolve, they fret and fume.
Darwinism at work, baby.
Yes, but I doubt if folks travel as much in down under as they do here - I could be wrong, though.
When you're always on the move, it begins to sound much better.
Not to mention the fact that a lot of us (esp. students) tend to have cellphones that were registered in one city, that we hold on to for a long time.
My cellphone number is based is Atlanta, although I've since lived in New Mexico and am now in Cincinnati - so, while it may seem crazy, it does make a lot of sense to students or folks who travel a lot.
It's universal, of sorts.
Well, this is where big companies come in.
At the peak of the outsourcing boom, people were outsourcing to just about any random company without running through their credibility or history.
As a result, they ended up having contracts with people who didn't care all that much about their data, or what it meant. This is another example of why that's so screwed up.
Now, things will even out. All the smaller outsourcing firms will lose out and only the big players will remain - they may charge more, but they also pay more and will usually have procedures in place that will prevent this sort of thing.
This is a good thing, because things will even out, some may choose to go to another firm, or some may come back here to the US. Either way, the market will eventually stabilize.
Well, I'm sure they meant Slashdot posters, not Slashdot editors.
Exactly, well said.
I'll say one other thing - Opera has a good voice browser capability, that is a very good thing.
Voice based multimodality is a great thing to have, and with VoIP, Opera can aim for that target segment.
Rather than doing that, they are trying to fight a market that's long gone.
Curious, Linux is cheaper to buy (can't get much better than free). And Linux certainly works well (although in fairness we don't know what you business is). And Linux is as cheap to implement as W2K, unless of course you were already a Windows shop when you started the analysis. Then this was a momentum thing.
To paraphrase JWZ, Linux is free if your time does not mean much.
If you are an enterprise, finding Windows expertise is cheap and easy, and setting up a Windows straight out of the box is a breeze.
More importantly, commercial apps support Windows a lot more than Linux, not to mention the fact that there is an inherent instability associated with Linux in the enterprise market.
Given all that, I'd go for Windows anyday.
Ah, well.
;)
Happens to the best of us, man!
Higher UID, much lower IQ. Ofcourse, we all know how much of a factor a UID is in gauging the intellect and maturity of people.
*shudder*
Do you even know how stupid your original post sounded? You make fairly intelligent comments from time to time, but that post was just so full of crap. I'd strongly suggest that you read up on what you're commenting before you go about saying things.
But hey, this is Slashdot. Not that it would matter...
Until now, I thought you were just another irritating poster. Now I realize that you're a dumb and irritating poster.
You have no clue what you are talking about, perhaps you'd do the world a favor if you'd just shut up.
That's hard to say - either I would have, or I might have just lost interest and never come back.
But it did give me time to lurk and post, and get used to Slashdot before I signed up for an account and started trolling under a nick. =)
Well, you work for them - quite obviously, whatever you do during that time belongs to them.
However, the difference is that they are willing to credit you for that, and quite possibly manage it if it were to grow into something substantial.
Most big companies don't do that - you do so much for them, and some bean counter comes along and takes credit while you are left hanging. That is the difference.
On the other hand, if you really think you have an idea that is Earth-shattering, you are quite free to work on it on your _personal_ time, on the weekends or otherwise. Nobody and nothing is stopping you.
(just because you are salaried does not mean that Google owns your soul, there are such things as personal possessions, you know?)
FK, the thing is that there are quite a lot of very excellent AC posts, and it is worthwhile putting up with some trolls rather than remove any chance of seeing those posts at all - and a lot of those posts are by folks who never bother getting an account.
In fact, I was an AC/lurker for the longest time, and created my account much later.
Personally, I think that ACs are a part of the Slashdot culture, and add a flavor of sorts to the entire Slashdot experience.
No, we do serve seals around here, holy or not. How do you like them, rare or deep fried?
That has, after all, worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, North Korea, Haiti, Panama, Kosovo, Iran, and India.
As a matter of fact, it has worked in India, and quite well too - since the day they have gotten independence from the British in 1947, at least.
In a country of 1.2 billion people, majority Hindus, they've a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister and a Catholic Caucasian female ruling party president. In fact, it's worked better than it does for the US, where except for two Presidents, every other one has been a Caucasian Protestant male.
Not to mention that India has a free market economy which has been growing by leaps and bounds. And it's quite unsettling that you would compare India (which is quite a broad-minded secular democracy with a growing economy) with countries like Afghanistan, North Korea and Iran - you, sir, just proved that you're as ignorant an idiot as the parent poster you were abusing.
Bah.
In a blinding flash of intelligence, my good friend jawtheshark asks a Slashdotter if he has read the article.
:-p
*sigh*
What do I even say?
Well, it's not merely the brain size, the brain:body ratio in terms of size is also important.
Funnily enough, this was seen outside Georgia Tech's College of Computing building on Valentine's day.
:-/
The irony of it? GTech (and particularly the CS department) hardly has any women at all to begin with. I'm convinced that most of the women they show in the stats are either professors or janitors.
Makes you wonder who wrote that though...spooky!
ROTFL! Someone mod parent up, please!
You owe me a coffee!