That's part of the problem though. AJAX.NET does offload a lot to the client, but not really the right things. All that's offloaded is fancy DHTML client side functionality for individual widgets.
Try something as simple as having two drop that affect each other. Data can be predetermined. Good luck getting them to NOT round trip to the server.
As with any toolkit, there are trade offs. And I will certainly concede that there are good uses for AJAX.NET. Any VB coder can now write 'AJAX' sites. Coders that won't touch the client directly can now write dynamic sites without having to touch javascript, css, DOM etc...they can write very familiar code just like everything else in.NET. However, what you trade off is control.
If you require a low volume site in short order with some fancy client features, go for it. If you're building a high volume site with some critical functionality, you're probably going to want to role your own.
Oh, and BTW, just so you know AJAX.NET really doesn't bring anything to the table on the security front at all. This is a good thing. Developers really need to be aware of what's required on a security front themselves, not a good thing to offload to your IDE.
Now, all of this does point to why I actually really really like working with ASP.NET. Thankfully, I'm not FORCED to do anything in any particular way. Any time the standard controls and widgets are getting in the way or just not able to perform well enough, you can easily get down and dirty and role your own.
I'm not trying to prove anything. How could I _prove_ anything about this? This is simply a discussion forum. I merely provide anecdotal evidence of what I've experienced with these technologies. I do not give a flying fuck whether I've 'proved' anything to you. Why would I? I don't give a shit whether you use this or not.
Though I strongly suspect a couple of things. First, pretty sure you're not a web developer. If you are, and you actually understand AJAX and.NET, you wouldn't be arguing with me. Second, you're really starting to come off as a MS rep or something. You seem particularly concerned about what I've said...but more concerned with trying to ensure no one thinks I've 'proven' anything with my statements.
Where's your vested interest? Why do you give a shit whether I think AJAX.NET sucks or not? I've already made up my mind and know what techs I'm using. So what gives?
And of course, what kind of credit can we give to someone that carries this conversation out as you have while the entire time insisting on remaining an anonymous coward?
Anyways, this is a complete waste of time for me, so good luck with that ehh?
Riiight, because I really need a job from some anonymous coward that chooses to insult me as a first order of business.
I'll take the Karma hit for this no problem, unlike yourself. Fuck you clown.
For anyone else following this, I've got nothing to prove whatsoever. This is what I do for a living, take it as you may, or leave it. Really matters not to me.
Traditionally, not that many consoles have had any level of backwards compatibility. Sony wasn't the first to try it, but they were the first to do it truly natively and not require separate slots for older media formats. They did such an amazing job of this with the PS2 that it has since become a de-facto standard for consoles...to at least attempt anyways. At the moment, Sony's still the only one that really has this down. But I think just about everyone sees it as a missing feature when it's not available on a system at this point. The 360 certainly isn't getting any love in this department.
Haven't heard much about the Wii in this area, anyone have some solid info on how backwards compatible it is?
(On the backwards compatibility front) MS promised next to nothing. MS delivered next to nothing.
Sony promised everything, and delivered slightly shy of that. And has since fulfilled their promise.
So because MS promised next to nothing and followed through, they're better than Sony that promised, and eventually (In fairly short order IMHO) delivered, as much as you could possibly expect.
Really, come on now. That is simply pathetic to try to slag Sony because MS followed through on a promise of nothing.
The ONLY argument that should be brought up in relationship to this topic is which system delivers more bang for your buck in the backwards compatibility department. Hands down, Sony wins. Period.
While that is true, it's still indicative of the massive bloat these controls add.
If you implement a simple form in ASP.NET, use a couple of these controls, have post back and view state turned on....the amount of code and size of bloat in bandwidth is simply INSANE.
By example, I used an atlas calendar control a while back, very similar to the example shown in the article. When I went and implemented my own, it was probably about 1/10th the amount of code that ended up on the client, much cleaner on the back end, and much much snappier.
Now try with a control that actually DOES do AJAX. It just gets worse.
Yeah, that's a really good use of AJAX isn't it. Sheesh.
This is why AJAX gets a bad name. I used Atlas before it evolved into this. And that was the problem there too. Look! It's ALL AJAX! All the time! The amount of overhead with this stuff is insane. They're just using the AJAX hook to sell people on a bunch of bloated controls. That is a fact. When you need AJAX, it's VERY easy to do. There is absolutely NO need whatsoever for a 3rd party toolset or components to do this, and enabling every last control you use with AJAX is just stupid.
This isn't AJAX, it's an abomination.
Oh and btw, if that's the nicest calendar you've seen out there...here's a hint: There are literally THOUSANDS of calendar controls out there. And that is certainly nothing new. (And again, absolutely NOTHING that needed AJAX to implement whatsoever.)
Do you not see how ridiculous you are? You continue to argue the unbelievability of sci-fi/fantasy game characters while touting the merits of other, equally unbelievable, sci-fi fantasy characters.
Here's a clue: It's sci-fi and fantasy, in games no less. It's called suspension of disbelief. If you don't get that, I strongly suggest you seek professional help sooner than later.
Oh bs. Doom's protagonist is a futuristic marine who's job it is to fight these alien beings. That is his JOB. Most games set up the protagonist with a background suitable to what they will be fighting against.
Even Half Life. Sure, he might not be up to doom marine standards, but his brain is a whole lot bigger. He's a very smart guy, lots of crazy tech at his disposal, and hey...the added incentive that he wants to save the world!
On the other hand, these mystical Jedi you speak of have 'magic' in them that elevate them to a capable level. If you really think about it...which one's pretty much completely unbelievable?
There's been some level of confusion in this entire thread. Mostly because people chose to make statements without backing them up in any way.
I certainly agree with your history on video games. It is definitely correct and accurate. However, I would have to suggest that it was the PC game market that revolutionized the industry. Pre-PC, the market was for kids for the most part. Video games were toys. They looked like toys, they played like toys. Once the PC entered the equation, that all changed. PC's drove the upshift in graphical quality. PC's brought 3D to the table. PC's brought gaming to the masses, though somewhat indirectly. FPS, TPS, simulators etc etc. Hardly anything new or revolutionary has happened on a console first in the past 15 years or so. Actually, the Wii-mote is about the first. Everything else in the console market has been striving to catch up to the state of the art of PC games. And the consoles simply still are not there.
Now we're getting to a point though where platforms have stabilized and it's reasonable to release games for the PC and a console or two, since consoles are becoming more and more like PCs every generation. However, the consoles are still behind. Still lower resolution and detail. Still somewhat contrived control schemes in the land of 3D. Better, certainly usable now, but definitely NOT superior to PC.
What I'm finding interesting now is that while the 360 and the PS3 are quite obviously striving to meet PC standards for games, the Wii has gone the complete opposite direction and IMHO, is really the only true console out there right now, from a historical perspective.
He's not talking about the Wii specifically. And not being a Wii developer, from his perspective, it has very little impact on what he's saying in that interview.
Think about _why_ 3rd person shooters skipped the PC. 3rd person shooters were adopted for consoles because FPS controls don't translate all that well to consoles.
Depends on where you live. Housing prices for a simple 3 bedroom backsplit bungalow can range from $100k to $750k, for the same house, all depending on where you plant it.
So this might double the price of your house if you live in a small town with low property values...bringing it to a whopping $200k. 100% increase. (And remember the number of systems that this also REPLACES, all this expense is not simply on top...especially when dealing with new construction). Arguably, a reasonable price, and I'm quite certain the ROI over the life of the house would be more than reasonable.
OR at the other end, we're talking ~15% increase on a ~$750k house. If you're already spending that much, what's another $100k?
And last, of course, this is bleeding edge. Lower prices will come as these systems become more and more mainstream.
Sorry, forgot to mention one more important thing. The PC gamer market may be small percentage wise, but that segment drives just about the entire market.
Think of it this way: Most people don't drive expensive high-tech vehicles. Those vehicles are only a very small part of the vehicle market. However, just about ALL of the tech in the vehicle you DO drive started out on those vehicles.
So we may be (relatively) small in numbers, but we created the market, and we're still the driving force behind it.
Think of it another way: Why does the Halo franchise exist? Simply because the console market had had FPS envy for over a decade. It took that long for consoles to be able to do FPS's well enough to be viable.
And last, just another point about the impact of PC Gamers on the industry. WoW is a juggernaut in the industry. And it's PC only. Not just a hiccup. Not just a blip on the radar. It's huge, it's massive, it's changed the gaming market across the board. All this from a _subset_ of 1/6th of the console market.
We're a LOT more important than you give credit for.
PC gamers follow the games and the tech. They're traditionally on the (relative) bleeding edge of the industry.
If the industry isn't going there, the gamers won't be either. It's that simple.
Until the moment there's a must have DX10 game, and the must have hardware to match, there simply won't be mass upgrading. Actually, there's a heck of a lot of room at the top of the DX9 stack still. Most people that look into this stuff KNOW that the best cards right now are DX9. And for the foreseeable future those cards will be getting cheaper as well as better. Now is the time to build that smokin rig. There is simply no point whatsoever in jumping on to the DX10/Vista bandwagon as it's completely empty, and headed out into the desert for the next couple years.
It's very typical of most geographically isolated recipes. You'll only get the real thing there, and the commercial substitute will most often hardly resemble the real thing.
No, Baileys in coffee is not a real Irish coffee. But most places in the world, that's what is sold as Irish coffee. And it's not that far off. Certainly, the presentation is much different. But Baileys itself is very very similar to the traditional whiskey/cream/sugar combo.
What you describe is simply home made Baileys. (Or rather, Baileys is the closest liqueur on the market to that). It is indeed a true Irish coffee. That's our traditional Christmas morning drink in my family (The real kind as you describe).
[blockquote]They're posturing, saying, "I'm too smart to bother dress like you"[/blockquote]
You might want to take a step back and take a look at yourself and your views on things that don't conform to 'the way you think things should be'. I'm quite certain you don't even realize what you are doing, but lets just say hypocrisy is definitely involved.
It's probably more like he's too smart to even register what something as moot as how _you_ dress on a daily basis.
Why should ANYONE bother to dress like _you_? Hmm? Do you have any idea at all how arrogant that comes off? Your post hides it well, but it's right there under the surface. Conform with whatever ideal you see fit, or be an outcast and subject to your ridicule.
Tell me this, what do you do that fashion should even be a remote consideration in whether you can do a good job at it or not? Unless you're a fashion designer or a professional jet setter (Not a job btw)...
Slashdot Mirror
That's part of the problem though. AJAX.NET does offload a lot to the client, but not really the right things. All that's offloaded is fancy DHTML client side functionality for individual widgets.
.NET. However, what you trade off is control.
Try something as simple as having two drop that affect each other. Data can be predetermined. Good luck getting them to NOT round trip to the server.
As with any toolkit, there are trade offs. And I will certainly concede that there are good uses for AJAX.NET. Any VB coder can now write 'AJAX' sites. Coders that won't touch the client directly can now write dynamic sites without having to touch javascript, css, DOM etc...they can write very familiar code just like everything else in
If you require a low volume site in short order with some fancy client features, go for it.
If you're building a high volume site with some critical functionality, you're probably going to want to role your own.
Oh, and BTW, just so you know AJAX.NET really doesn't bring anything to the table on the security front at all. This is a good thing. Developers really need to be aware of what's required on a security front themselves, not a good thing to offload to your IDE.
Now, all of this does point to why I actually really really like working with ASP.NET. Thankfully, I'm not FORCED to do anything in any particular way. Any time the standard controls and widgets are getting in the way or just not able to perform well enough, you can easily get down and dirty and role your own.
I'm not trying to prove anything. How could I _prove_ anything about this? This is simply a discussion forum. I merely provide anecdotal evidence of what I've experienced with these technologies. I do not give a flying fuck whether I've 'proved' anything to you. Why would I? I don't give a shit whether you use this or not.
.NET, you wouldn't be arguing with me. Second, you're really starting to come off as a MS rep or something. You seem particularly concerned about what I've said...but more concerned with trying to ensure no one thinks I've 'proven' anything with my statements.
Though I strongly suspect a couple of things. First, pretty sure you're not a web developer. If you are, and you actually understand AJAX and
Where's your vested interest? Why do you give a shit whether I think AJAX.NET sucks or not? I've already made up my mind and know what techs I'm using. So what gives?
And of course, what kind of credit can we give to someone that carries this conversation out as you have while the entire time insisting on remaining an anonymous coward?
Anyways, this is a complete waste of time for me, so good luck with that ehh?
Riiight, because I really need a job from some anonymous coward that chooses to insult me as a first order of business.
I'll take the Karma hit for this no problem, unlike yourself. Fuck you clown.
For anyone else following this, I've got nothing to prove whatsoever. This is what I do for a living, take it as you may, or leave it. Really matters not to me.
Um, Microsoft for one?
Traditionally, not that many consoles have had any level of backwards compatibility. Sony wasn't the first to try it, but they were the first to do it truly natively and not require separate slots for older media formats. They did such an amazing job of this with the PS2 that it has since become a de-facto standard for consoles...to at least attempt anyways. At the moment, Sony's still the only one that really has this down. But I think just about everyone sees it as a missing feature when it's not available on a system at this point. The 360 certainly isn't getting any love in this department.
Haven't heard much about the Wii in this area, anyone have some solid info on how backwards compatible it is?
Let's put it another way:
;)
(On the backwards compatibility front)
MS promised next to nothing. MS delivered next to nothing.
Sony promised everything, and delivered slightly shy of that. And has since fulfilled their promise.
So because MS promised next to nothing and followed through, they're better than Sony that promised, and eventually (In fairly short order IMHO) delivered, as much as you could possibly expect.
Really, come on now. That is simply pathetic to try to slag Sony because MS followed through on a promise of nothing.
The ONLY argument that should be brought up in relationship to this topic is which system delivers more bang for your buck in the backwards compatibility department. Hands down, Sony wins. Period.
But nice try at polishing a turd there
While that is true, it's still indicative of the massive bloat these controls add.
If you implement a simple form in ASP.NET, use a couple of these controls, have post back and view state turned on....the amount of code and size of bloat in bandwidth is simply INSANE.
By example, I used an atlas calendar control a while back, very similar to the example shown in the article. When I went and implemented my own, it was probably about 1/10th the amount of code that ended up on the client, much cleaner on the back end, and much much snappier.
Now try with a control that actually DOES do AJAX. It just gets worse.
Yeah, that's a really good use of AJAX isn't it. Sheesh.
This is why AJAX gets a bad name. I used Atlas before it evolved into this. And that was the problem there too. Look! It's ALL AJAX! All the time! The amount of overhead with this stuff is insane. They're just using the AJAX hook to sell people on a bunch of bloated controls. That is a fact. When you need AJAX, it's VERY easy to do. There is absolutely NO need whatsoever for a 3rd party toolset or components to do this, and enabling every last control you use with AJAX is just stupid.
This isn't AJAX, it's an abomination.
Oh and btw, if that's the nicest calendar you've seen out there...here's a hint: There are literally THOUSANDS of calendar controls out there. And that is certainly nothing new. (And again, absolutely NOTHING that needed AJAX to implement whatsoever.)
I got the impression that it is about as 'biodegradable' as other metals. In other words, not expected to be a problem over the life of the product.
Unless you have problems with your cell phones rusting out before you're ready to throw them away, I don't think you'll have much to worry about.
Do you not see how ridiculous you are? You continue to argue the unbelievability of sci-fi/fantasy game characters while touting the merits of other, equally unbelievable, sci-fi fantasy characters.
Here's a clue: It's sci-fi and fantasy, in games no less. It's called suspension of disbelief. If you don't get that, I strongly suggest you seek professional help sooner than later.
Oh bs. Doom's protagonist is a futuristic marine who's job it is to fight these alien beings. That is his JOB. Most games set up the protagonist with a background suitable to what they will be fighting against.
Even Half Life. Sure, he might not be up to doom marine standards, but his brain is a whole lot bigger. He's a very smart guy, lots of crazy tech at his disposal, and hey...the added incentive that he wants to save the world!
On the other hand, these mystical Jedi you speak of have 'magic' in them that elevate them to a capable level. If you really think about it...which one's pretty much completely unbelievable?
Paraphrase:
It'll suck because the fictional heroes aren't realistic.
But if they based it on this particular fictional hero it'd rock!
Conclusion:
You're not making any sense man!
Much better, thanks.
There's been some level of confusion in this entire thread. Mostly because people chose to make statements without backing them up in any way.
I certainly agree with your history on video games. It is definitely correct and accurate. However, I would have to suggest that it was the PC game market that revolutionized the industry. Pre-PC, the market was for kids for the most part. Video games were toys. They looked like toys, they played like toys. Once the PC entered the equation, that all changed. PC's drove the upshift in graphical quality. PC's brought 3D to the table. PC's brought gaming to the masses, though somewhat indirectly. FPS, TPS, simulators etc etc. Hardly anything new or revolutionary has happened on a console first in the past 15 years or so. Actually, the Wii-mote is about the first. Everything else in the console market has been striving to catch up to the state of the art of PC games. And the consoles simply still are not there.
Now we're getting to a point though where platforms have stabilized and it's reasonable to release games for the PC and a console or two, since consoles are becoming more and more like PCs every generation. However, the consoles are still behind. Still lower resolution and detail. Still somewhat contrived control schemes in the land of 3D. Better, certainly usable now, but definitely NOT superior to PC.
What I'm finding interesting now is that while the 360 and the PS3 are quite obviously striving to meet PC standards for games, the Wii has gone the complete opposite direction and IMHO, is really the only true console out there right now, from a historical perspective.
Because he's talking about the entire market.
He's not talking about the Wii specifically. And not being a Wii developer, from his perspective, it has very little impact on what he's saying in that interview.
But you already knew that.
What, is being a game developer supposed to be an altruistic endeavor now?
Self interest isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Counter his statements, not his completely reasonable (for his position) pov.
Think about _why_ 3rd person shooters skipped the PC. 3rd person shooters were adopted for consoles because FPS controls don't translate all that well to consoles.
There's viable, and there's usable.
;)
Any PC FPSer will know exactly what I'm talking about. Any console FPS fanboys...we'll, you still don't know what you're missing
Dude, you really _really_ don't know your video game history.
Did you read at all? Or are you just looking for an argument just for it's own sake?
What did I say? And all you can offer is 'Not Really'. No counter points whatsoever. Just a totally (obviously) biased opinion. Nothing more.
Move along please, nothing to see here.
Depends on where you live. Housing prices for a simple 3 bedroom backsplit bungalow can range from $100k to $750k, for the same house, all depending on where you plant it.
So this might double the price of your house if you live in a small town with low property values...bringing it to a whopping $200k. 100% increase. (And remember the number of systems that this also REPLACES, all this expense is not simply on top...especially when dealing with new construction). Arguably, a reasonable price, and I'm quite certain the ROI over the life of the house would be more than reasonable.
OR at the other end, we're talking ~15% increase on a ~$750k house. If you're already spending that much, what's another $100k?
And last, of course, this is bleeding edge. Lower prices will come as these systems become more and more mainstream.
Sorry, forgot to mention one more important thing. The PC gamer market may be small percentage wise, but that segment drives just about the entire market.
Think of it this way: Most people don't drive expensive high-tech vehicles. Those vehicles are only a very small part of the vehicle market. However, just about ALL of the tech in the vehicle you DO drive started out on those vehicles.
So we may be (relatively) small in numbers, but we created the market, and we're still the driving force behind it.
Think of it another way: Why does the Halo franchise exist? Simply because the console market had had FPS envy for over a decade. It took that long for consoles to be able to do FPS's well enough to be viable.
And last, just another point about the impact of PC Gamers on the industry. WoW is a juggernaut in the industry. And it's PC only. Not just a hiccup. Not just a blip on the radar. It's huge, it's massive, it's changed the gaming market across the board. All this from a _subset_ of 1/6th of the console market.
We're a LOT more important than you give credit for.
PC gamers follow the games and the tech. They're traditionally on the (relative) bleeding edge of the industry.
If the industry isn't going there, the gamers won't be either. It's that simple.
Until the moment there's a must have DX10 game, and the must have hardware to match, there simply won't be mass upgrading. Actually, there's a heck of a lot of room at the top of the DX9 stack still. Most people that look into this stuff KNOW that the best cards right now are DX9. And for the foreseeable future those cards will be getting cheaper as well as better. Now is the time to build that smokin rig. There is simply no point whatsoever in jumping on to the DX10/Vista bandwagon as it's completely empty, and headed out into the desert for the next couple years.
It's very typical of most geographically isolated recipes. You'll only get the real thing there, and the commercial substitute will most often hardly resemble the real thing.
No, Baileys in coffee is not a real Irish coffee. But most places in the world, that's what is sold as Irish coffee. And it's not that far off. Certainly, the presentation is much different. But Baileys itself is very very similar to the traditional whiskey/cream/sugar combo.
What you describe is simply home made Baileys. (Or rather, Baileys is the closest liqueur on the market to that). It is indeed a true Irish coffee. That's our traditional Christmas morning drink in my family (The real kind as you describe).
Yeah, and neversoft is already well versed in the porting department. That actually makes a lot of sense.
[blockquote]They're posturing, saying, "I'm too smart to bother dress like you"[/blockquote]
You might want to take a step back and take a look at yourself and your views on things that don't conform to 'the way you think things should be'. I'm quite certain you don't even realize what you are doing, but lets just say hypocrisy is definitely involved.
It's probably more like he's too smart to even register what something as moot as how _you_ dress on a daily basis.
Why should ANYONE bother to dress like _you_? Hmm? Do you have any idea at all how arrogant that comes off? Your post hides it well, but it's right there under the surface. Conform with whatever ideal you see fit, or be an outcast and subject to your ridicule.
Tell me this, what do you do that fashion should even be a remote consideration in whether you can do a good job at it or not? Unless you're a fashion designer or a professional jet setter (Not a job btw)...
Tolerance is a wonderful trait.