The Twilight Years of Cap'n Crunch

Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Tech pioneer John Draper, a legendary, eccentric figure in Silicon Valley better known as Cap'n Crunch, has slipped to the margins while his peers became rich, the Wall Street Journal writes in a profile. Draper was a 'phone phreak' and helped develop the technology for word processing and voice-activated telephone menus; meanwhile, he eluded the mainstream by tampering with the phone system, frequenting the rave scene and shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him. 'Once tolerated, even embraced, for his eccentricities, Mr. Draper now lives on the margins of this affluent world, still striving to carve out a role in the business mainstream,' says the WSJ. More from the article: 'Contemporaries who've gone on to riches and fame say they've tried to help Mr. Draper over the years. Mr. Wozniak says Mr. Draper's problem is that his skills lie in technology rather in making business deals or starting a company. "He didn't come from a business orientation," says Mr. Wozniak.'"

Comments

Wow

[baldass_newbie]

When Woz is saying you don't have business skillz, that's something.
Seriously, the phrase for this 'Emotional Intelligence' and it's in short supply for most geeks/nerds/etc.

Re:Wow

[jellomizer]

Well Woz does have business skills. He is able to keep a job, maintain organizations, work well with people. He just doesn't like the remote aspect of upper management he just wanted to be an engineer. Compared to others like "Cap'n Crunch" and many other geeks they think just because they are smart that people will want to keep them. You can be the smartest person in the world but you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish, and people feel you will at any one time snap.

Re:Wow

[cowscows]

Well, there are people who like to think that they're smart enough that they don't have to pay any mind to "society's rules", that their extreme brilliance is all that they need. Geeks are notorious for that, although often unfairly stereotyped to the extremes. But in generally, things like "I'm going to wear t-shirts and sandals to business meetings, and they can go ahead and fire me if they don't like it" are basically symptoms of the same thing.

The problem is that in the end, technology is really only useful to the point that it interacts with people. While there are many who will appreciate technology for technology's sake, if you're really going to get anywhere, what you're doing has to satisfy people. And if your attitude pushes people away before they can appreciate what you're trying to do with technology, then you're just going to end up isolating yourself. As smart as you are, there are other people out there just as smart, who are also able and willing to have more normal social contact with others, and they'll get chosen over you.

If you want to make a technology based business, It's not enough just to understand technology. You should also strive to understand people as well. You'll never figure it all out, but the ways that individuals, organizations, and societies work are important, and pretending that it isn't won't make everyone else go away.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

people who like to think that they're smart enough that they don't have to pay any mind to "society's rules",

I wouldn't say that Crunch fits that description. He's really not an in-your-face kind of guy.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding, he'll never make Admiral acting like this. In fact, he'll be lucky if he isn't demoted to Ensign Crunch.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

Oh, for pete's sake..

If you were as allergic to tobacco as he is, you'd yell too. I remember seeing his hand break out once because an ashtray had been spilled on him. It took a couple of weeks for the blistering and peeling to clear up.

Now, something that you probably don't know, is that when he was in jail, he got beaten severely because he refused to tell the mob how to make blue boxes. He has severe back problems to this day because of it. That's hardly the choice that would be made by someone who thinks none of the rules apply to him.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Alas, I think it's much more than just business skillz(!). There's a certain fundmental level of reading people that he lacks - social skills, if you will. I'm sure all us /. readers who live in Los Angeles have met him by now, and most will agree with me that he has some rather eccentric behaviors that make him uncomfortable to be around:

- always insisting on giving his "energy" massages.
- biting the scabs off his hands in public places.
- smoking more weed than needed for medical purposes.

The man needs to take care of himself more. I once took him out to dinner at a really nice steakhouse, and he put more butter on his bread than bread. I've never seen so much salt on a slab of salmon before, either. I felt a heart attack coming on just watching him eat.

I empathize with those who have tried to help him professionally. I tried to put him on a Python contract maintaining some scripts, but Draper's sense of self-entitlement made it really difficult for me to deal with him - I knew it would make it thus difficult for the client to deal with him. I'm sure that Jobs and Mitnick and other industry heavyweights have tried to give him well-paying work, but lacking consistency kills off just about any job. Being able to express gratitude would also be an invaluable social skill.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, RTFA. According to it he is notorious for very bad body odor, shabby/dirty clothes, lost most of his teeth due to lack of care, throws fits over smoking, couldn't keep himself out of jail, didn't pay attention to his best business opportunity (Easy Writer), etc. Maybe not in-your-face but certainly has a hostile attitude.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

Maybe not in-your-face but certainly has a hostile attitude.

I know the guy, and you obviously don't.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[lonechicken]

Admiral Crunch? "Well if you don't like that, try some Archduke Chocula."

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if draper nailed woz, or jobs. Probably Jobs.

Re:Wow

[tgibbs]

Now, something that you probably don't know, is that when he was in jail, he got beaten severely because he refused to tell the mob how to make blue boxes. He has severe back problems to this day because of it. That's hardly the choice that would be made by someone who thinks none of the rules apply to him.

It's the kind of choice that would be made by somebody who believes in principles rather than rules.

Re:Wow

[cowscows]

I don't know him, so I can't comment on him specifically. But being an obnoxious brat isn't the only way that this sort of thing can happen. Just refusing to participate in social activities can be a symptom. Not to say that if you don't go to parties and get drunk and crazy that you're some sort of misanthrope, just that it's not impossible to have a disdain for "normal" people and be fairly quiet about it.

A example that I've seen often enough are techie type people who "hate all sports", and who believe that anyone who's a fan of a team that they don't play for is just being dumb. While you can certainly make an argument that hyper-competitiveness is having bad effects on our society, the blanket opinion that "organized sports are stupid" seems to me to be a byproduct of some sort of elitism.

But I am in no way trying to make judgements about this Crunch guy specifically. Never met him. Just a more general statement that some people choose to ignore/reject/ridicule the majority of the norms of our cultures, which is certainly their decision. But they shouldn't expect everyone else to bend over to integrate them into society.

Re:Wow

[morgan_greywolf]

Well Woz does have business skills. He is able to keep a job, maintain organizations, work well with people.

These are basic interpersonal skills, not business skills. Yes, they are very much needed in business, but they are skills that have applicability far beyond the workplace. It's a bit like saying that wearing clothes or tying your shoe are business skills.

Woz needed Jobs (and Jobs needed Woz) because one lacked what the other provided -- Jobs had the marketing and business savvy and Woz had the m4d 3l337 h4rdw4w3 sk1llz.

Re:Wow

[GeckoX]

I don't agree.

The guy that shows up wearing a t-shirt and sandals to a business meeting, and is consciously thinking 'screw em if they don't like it', is NOT the kind of geek/nerd we're talking about here.

Your typical geek/nerd may appear a bit unkempt not because of a conscious decision, but because of any related thoughts not even entering into their mind.

We're talking the kind of person that can sit down and code for 2 days straight, never even thinking about eating or whatever. People that live in their head.

There's a BIG difference. Most geeks/nerds today really aren't. It's just fashionable to be seen as such, somewhat. And a lot of these people play up the part. Sad, but true.

Unfortunately, it's usually going to be the true geeks/nerds that get fired, let go, walked over, ignored whatever because they don't fit in with the social aspects at their place of work.

Personally, where I work, I try to be very very conscious about peoples abilities, and completely shut off everything else. I don't care if you're a nice guy or not, doesn't matter at all...unless it impacts your ability to do work or other people's ability to do their work. Stink in a meeting? Whatever, you're doing a great job and don't worry we wouldn't make you meet with our customers directly as we know you wouldn't deal with it well.

I've fired people that I actually liked a lot. I've fired more people that I'd actually hang out with outside of work than people that I wouldn't. On a personal level, I really can't stand some of the people I work with. Bottom line is though, that has just about zero impact on how they do their jobs. It takes all kinds.

Re:Wow

[JoshJ]

If more people believed in principles rather than rules, the world would be a better place.

Re:Wow

[GeckoX]

Superficially, you might be on to something. Thankfully all of us aren't as superficial as you appear to be.

What that you mention there makes him hostile? Hostile to your sense of what is acceptable maybe, but I'd have to suggest that attitudes like this towards other human beings are as a matter of fact hostile in and of themselves.

The guy lives in his head. He didn't choose to become unkempt, he just doesn't think about it. And as someone else mentioned, the man is extremely allergic to cigarette smoke.

Further, he's been treated like crap by people like you all his life. You think you might be a bit crusty if you were treated like shit by people that didn't know the first thing about you for your whole life?

Man, I feel like a teacher lecturing an 8 year old on the playground. You should have listened back then, they weren't lying to you.

Re:Wow

[greginnj]

I know the guy, and you obviously don't.

Wow, cool... so, since the theme of TFA seems to be 'sadly neglected tech guru', I was wondering -- how would you help him, if you could? Let's say sufficient money was available, what would you do (that he would accept), that would improve his situation, personally or professionally? (Does he want it improved in any way?)

I bet if there was a reasonable plan in place, you wouldn't be lacking in contributions from the /. crowd, among others... I'd put in some cash, myself.

Re:Wow

[rblancarte]

These are basic interpersonal skills, not business skills.

I think Woz was just being nice, or diplomatic. I read the blurb and then the article, the whole time thinking the same thing - this is something that a lot of people should learn from. I think you hit the nail right on the head M-GW.

After finishing up a CS program just last year, one of the biggest things I noticed was the major lack of social skills that many students had. There were many briliant students, but some of them just terrible at interpersonal interaction. I think the grandparent post is very right. Many brilliant computer types have this attitude about being so high and mighty they are irreplaceable. Hell, it was an article just last week.

Personally, I think that interpersonal skills are something that really should be worked on by the people themselves and also perhapse helped by educational facilities. Why not have CS programs teach a class(es) in interpersonal skills? Perhapse it will help guys like Crunch who are brilliant and have tons to contribute to find a place and realy make their mark. I think it is a shame that much of his brilliance has mostly gone on wasted.

RonB

Re:Wow

[jjohnson]

He's really not an in-your-face kind of guy.

No? Not when he's screaming across the restaurant "this bacon is too greasy!" or yelling at you for smoking within 100 yards of him?

Re:Wow

[somersault]

[*massive offtopic rant*]

I worry sometimes that I'm being an obnoxious brat in hindsight, and I never went to those parties, etc etc. Funnily enough I'm not usually interested in organised sports either, but mostly because teams these days don't even tend to use players from their own country, let alone their own town. I know it's going offtopic, but anyway: I first started disliking football because some people actually physically assault, and I'm sure have killed (though maybe not since the 80s or 90s) people who support the 'wrong' team (I live in the UK where people take their 'soccer' pretty seriously). Combined with the fact that I'm not great at football or other sports that involve tackling (I tend to just hurt the person rather than get the ball! not that I lack co-ordination, I'm not half bad at Counter-Strike ;) ). In my opinion supporting a team would mean a lot more if the team actually only used local players rather than just buying in all their talent. That's probably the reason that I actually enjoy international football, where I can support my own country (well, on the odd occasion that they get through qualifying! I'm Scottish). Supporting a team because they have a lot of money seems rather sad to me, kind of like supporting Microsoft just because they can afford to pay good wages.

Anyway, rant over, and I do agree with you on all your points. I know that I'm a very capable person when it comes to academic exercises, but when it comes to organising my life and interacting with people, I do tend to suck. I have been trying to be more social since I went through University, but sadly that has meant that I stopped doing coding in my spare time, and I feel I am not reaching my full geek potential. I'm currently an IT 'manager' but I'd probably feel a lot more fulfilled if I was working for some small but innovative games company. If I'd been born 10 years earlier I probably would be doing that, but these days people I feel people are used to highly polished games worked on by massive developement teams, whereas I've got that 'sort of elitism' that you mention, and like to be able to do everything myself. Of course having worked for a couple of years now I see that I probably would enjoy working as part of a team of coders, though I read that you hardly get paid anything as a games developer, and I'm making a pretty comfortable living right now. Meh. Less time with the gf, more time coding little shareware/freeware games? I think I'm either too burned out from other crap or maybe just to lazy to get back into coding in my spare time. In the time it took to write this comment I could have gone and reinstalled Visual C++ and got back into doing OpenGL tutorials or something :p *wonders if anyone else was sad enough to read this*

Re:Wow

[tobi-azz]

Only if people believed in the _same_ principles. However, they don't, so we have rules.

Re:Wow

[tzanger]

If you were as allergic to tobacco as he is, you'd yell too. I remember seeing his hand break out once because an ashtray had been spilled on him. It took a couple of weeks for the blistering and peeling to clear up.

Then *he*, not everyone else, needs to stay away from tobacco. His right to exist must not infringe on my right to smoke in a designated area. I'm really sick of this kind of thinking... My kids love peanut butter sandwiches, but I can't take them to a public school because someone else's kid is anaphylactic and could get themselves killed by being around my kid. Instead of taking the 1 or 2 kids who are anaphylactic and putting them somewhere safe, we instead sanitize the entire school system, at great expense, and at marginal benefit... The same kid could go into shock or die because the bus driver has peanut butter on his breath, or the kid picked up a breakfast bar wrapper on the way to school.

I don't mind helping people out, but this is just too far. It's too much. I'm really, really sorry that he's got a severe reaction to tobacco, and I am genuinely sorry that some children are anaphylactic. I'm also sorry that some kids have leukemia and others have genetic disorders. I sincerely do wish that all children could be happy and healthy and robust, but reducing absolutely everything down to a common level to protect all the weak ones is bad for society on a whole.

Re:Wow

[FranklinDelanoBluth]

You can be the smartest person in the world but you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish, and people feel you will at any one time snap.

Though he might not smell, Woz's partner Steve Jobs seems to be able to hold a job in spite of his legendarily short and unpredictable temper...

Re:Wow

[JudgeFurious]

I didn't smell like 2 week old dead fish. I just forgot to bathe for a couple of days while I was working on something.

  Ok a month but I still smelled better than dead fish.

  The only reason they fired me was because that bitch in the clerical refused to go out with me and got that restraining order. The cowards in management were afraid of getting sued and I think one of them was having an affair with her. Once I finish my manifesto they'll all be sorry they ever fired the smartest man who ever worked there!

Re:Wow

[bigred85]

--It's just fashionable to be seen as such, somewhat.

Woah buddy I'm gonna hafta differ in opinion with you on THAT one. I'm in doubt as to geeky unkempt-ness EVER having been fashionable.

Re:Wow

[lakeland]

My CEO wears hawaiian shirts, shorts and sandals to business meetings.

I understand that at first it made it a bit of an uphill battle building his startup but now it is just part of the image.
*shrug*, works for me. Besides, it means any clients I have to deal with can already deal with him.

Re:Wow

[paganizer]

"As smart as you are, there are other people out there just as smart, who are also able and willing to have more normal social contact with others, and they'll get chosen over you."

I know a lot of people like to tell themselves this sort of thing, but let me point out something that you really should know; not all people are created equal.
There are people out there who are the very best at what they do. Would we have Personal Computers, if it wasn't for Woz & Jobs? A lot of people say that we would, the time was right... but we did have Woz & Jobs, and if nothing else they established that someone can be the very best at being reasonably smart & lucky at the right time. and good luck trying to get a normal joe to paint a Mona lisa, scult a David, design a T34 etc.
Woz had interpersonal skills, that kept him from being a liability to the startup apple. But a lot of the upper-end-of-the-geekosphere types do NOT have interpersonal skills. they just don't. I've always thought it was a idiot savant thing, myself...

I know a few of these people, one is in my family. He has degrees in aerospace engineering & computer science; he wrote a interface driver in assembly for a ARM based device one of my old companies was having fits with in less than 2 hours, just given the detailed specs via e-mail; something that recent graduates had been working on for days, if not weeks. But he works Janitor type jobs, because he can't handle people bugging him all the time.

I'm sort of in a similar boat; I made it through my career & i'm now retired, but every day was a struggle... not to do the work, but to try and fit in & not screw up terribly on the interpersonal crap.
With the coming of the Dot.Com era, it got harder as more & more "normal" types (less smarts, better interpersonal skills) were rushing to get jobs in the tech industry, making it difficult for people who were merely good with technology to compete.
So, the workplaces lost the people able to do the work, the dropout Business Management majors who were now IT couldn't keep the technology rolling, and everything went to india.

SO, some company could right now have THE Cap'n Crunch on retainer, or working from home, but instead they probably have 3 guys who took CompSci because their highschool advisor told them they would make more money that way. Which do you honestly think would be likely to give the most return for their investment?

Re:Wow

[ScottJamez]

"If you were as allergic to tobacco as he is, you'd yell too."

If you were as allergic to tobacco as he is, the last place on earth you want to be frequenting is a rave.

Re:Wow

[cayenne8]

"After finishing up a CS program just last year, one of the biggest things I noticed was the major lack of social skills that many students had. There were many briliant students, but some of them just terrible at interpersonal interaction. I think the grandparent post is very right. Many brilliant computer types have this attitude about being so high and mighty they are irreplaceable...."

I agree. I find it amazing that so many in the field have the personality of a small soap dish. That makes it tough when you almost have to 'drag' the brilliance out of a very smart person.

I find that quite often, if you get into the IT field...if you have a good personality, out going, personable and present yourself well in business situation, it will often more than make up for some tech skill deficiencies you might have, whereas someone lacking but, a tech wizard, will often get left behind professionally and financially. In this day in age, you cannot afford to be one dimensional.

One fine case in example, I'd just started one of my first tech jobs where the team took a huge chance on hiring me..I'd really only had experience teaching myself foxpro, and building a user interface while doing medical research while trying to get into med school. My degree is in Biochem. Anyway, they were going to use Delphi to build a windows interface to submit and manage processes on the mainframes they had. Well, I'd only been on the team maybe a week....and they had to give a presentation, to a small group of potential users....maybe about 15-20 people tops.

These guys were all terrified it seemed of standing in front of the people and presenting the strategy and ideas we were working on. I've never had a problem getting in front of a large group of people for anything...so, noob guy volunteers. It went just fine...but,from then on...many people noticed me, and i did well at the company. I would have people ask my opinion over others in the group that were MILES ahead of me technially....hell, I'd have to ask them at times, and then give the answer later to the higher ups that asked me. So, yes...people skills will go a LONG way to save your ass and move you forward in life. You have to have skills to back up BS for sure, but, mediocre skills and excellent people skills can take you much further that skills alone.

"Personally, I think that interpersonal skills are something that really should be worked on by the people themselves and also perhapse helped by educational facilities. Why not have CS programs teach a class(es) in interpersonal skills?"

Unfortunately, I dunno if this is something you CAN teach. While I hesitate to say that these important interpersonal skills are something you are "born with". I would say that they are pretty well ingrained in you by the time you are a teen or maybe even earlier. I don't say you can't learn new things, but, with most people that have the skills....they are second nature and natural for them to use. I'd say it is kind of like being 'witty' and being able to come up with funny things instantly in conversation....a skill that often is a sign someone has exceptional interpersonal skills.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Yells at restaurant staff over bacon instead of calmly explaining or asking politely for a new batch? He doesn't give a damn about the people around him or his effect on them. Smell like shit at work? Stop putting your rules on me man! Consideration for others is soooo conformist.

Most 8 yr olds know you don't make illegal phone calls then have to be lectured after the 3rd arrest by a judge. But then again morals are superficial and childish.

Maybe you being overly defensive because you need a bath too? "Thou dost protest too much"

Re:Wow

[TheoMurpse]

Your typical geek/nerd may appear a bit unkempt not because of a conscious decision, but because of any related thoughts not even entering into their mind.

That's not being a geek; that's being out of touch with reality. They are not the same thing. There are plenty of nerds who have good social skills. I'd be careful about making broad brush strokes like you just have. What you are describing, really, is autism.

Most geeks/nerds today really aren't. It's just fashionable to be seen as such, somewhat.

Hallelujah! Finally the day has come in which it is fashionable to get your shit kicked in! *sigh* Your post just reeks of elitism: Only antisocial people are nerds, and everyone else who thinks he is 1337 really isn't. Just a poser. Not the, as you put it, "true geeks." HA!

I think what you meant to say was that most people in the computer science field are not geeks, but merely business-minded people who chased the big bucks during the dot com era and got stranded in a field in which they held very little interest after the bubble burst.

Re:Wow

[easter1916]

Perhaps he should stick to non-smoking venues, then. I'm allergic to peanuts but I don't yell at every person I see eating them. It's my responsibility to avoid them, not theirs.

Re:Wow

[GeckoX]

No, rather I'm suggesting that social traits have nothing to do with ones ability.

Re:Wow

[easter1916]

Stink in a meeting?

There's no excuse for a lack of personal hygiene. If I were his boss I'd speak to him pretty quickly about it and fire him if he didn't start bathing regularly. And what of his coworkers? Maybe YOU don't mind if he smells like old sweat and shit, but his colleagues who share cubicle-land with him might.

Re:Wow

[Achromatic1978]

Yeah. Alternatively, you'd realize that 'people who smoke in the rave scene' are very high in number, and that maybe you're just putting yourself in harms way. (whether you should have that right or not is another issue entirely, but nonetheless, exactly whose fault is it that he's allergic to tobacco that he gets off yelling at people who have no idea of his circumstance?)

Re:Wow

[AuMatar]

Someone else eating peanuts doesn't effect you. You can sit next to someone eating a peanut with no ill effects. Not so with smoking- if you're allergic, sitting next to a smoker will set it off, because the smoke spreads. Sitting in the same room can, if itsa poorly ventilated. Claiming that its their job to avoid smoke is like claiming its your job to avoid my fist if I throw a punch at you.

Re:Wow

[AuMatar]

Well, there are people who like to think that they're smart enough that they don't have to pay any mind to "society's rules", that their extreme brilliance is all that they need. Geeks are notorious for that, although often unfairly stereotyped to the extremes. But in generally, things like "I'm going to wear t-shirts and sandals to business meetings, and they can go ahead and fire me if they don't like it" are basically symptoms of the same thing.

If a rule makes sense, follow it. If it doesn't make sense- why should I waste my time doing so? I have better things to do. So I won't get promoted? I don't give a shit- I would turn one down if it was offered. I won't get that raise? I can get a bigger raise by hopping ship, welcome to buisness. So I won't be listened to at meetings? Thats fine too- its your company not mine, if it starts to tank I'll go elsewhere. So tell me why I should waste my time playing to your insecurities?

Re:Wow

[easter1916]

The three CompSci grads, please. Cheaper, easier to deal with, no "social" issues (unless we chose to let those slip by the selection process).

Re:Wow

[BK425]

"On a personal level, I really can't stand some of the people I work with. Bottom line is though, that has just about zero impact on how they do their jobs."

There's a difference between being socially popular and social.
People who "work in another world" to the point that they can't display normal social skills damage business by failing to communicate with the other people in the business. And that's very seldom (in my experience) the only symptom for folks with the kind of social issues you describe.
Focus on code for two days, that's great. (If you can do that while depriving your mind of nutrition and sleep then... think what you might do while feeding yourself.) Liking someone, or wether or not their boss can "stand" them has nothing to with it, I agree. But basic social ability like the willingness to nod when someone says hi in the hallway has a LOT more importance to business then just being able to nod when someone says hi in the hallway. MHgeeksO

Re:Wow

[a55mnky]

The problem with your argument is that there are folks that CAN do the things that John Draper and others like him can do, but also have the ability to "work well with others"

Re:Wow

[easter1916]

Or perhaps it's like claiming that hanging around with people who throw punches can lead to being on the receiving end of one?

Besides, until smoking is outlawed, it's Drapers problem. If smoking is legal in a place and he still yells at smokers, that's his problem.

Re:Wow

[MrMarket]

I don't think you can teach interpersonal skills in a class. It takes time and practice to learn how to live in a way where you act towards people in a way they want to be treated, not in a way you think you have the right to treat them. The best way to learn empathy is to put yourself in situation where your success depends on how well you can understand and act on other people's needs. Getting a girlfriend, waiting tables/tending bar, or taking up babysitting are a couple ways to practice this.

Re:Wow

[cowscows]

I was there too in terms of social awkwardness, pretty bad up until college, where I started to figure some of it out. I'm not that much of a social guy now though. I don't much care for parties, I don't like crowds all that much. I find that interacting with large groups of people is exhausting work. But for other people, my mom for example, they find crowds to be incredibly energizing, and can't stand sitting by themselves and doing something quiet.

But the thing that I finally realized is that neither way is better than the other, just that one of those ways is better for me personally. The world is full of both kinds, and needs both kinds. And because of that, there are times when I'm going to have to deal with the opposite kind. So I've given it a go, and I've learned how to deal with a lot of it. Where I can fit in with it, what my limitations are. I can go out to a restaurant and sit at a table with 30 other people and be fine, because the fact that we're eating means I have something else to do, which helps me keep my mind focused, instead of thinking about how loud it is in the restaurant. But if those same 30 people and I were all standing around at a cocktail party just chatting, I feel pretty out of place. I guess I'm just more of a task oriented person.

Anyways, back to the sports issue, I can agree with a lot of what you said. Professional sports are generally becoming less and less about the game and more about the money, which is uninspiring at best. But that doesn't explain the irrational hatred of sports in general that I commonly saw among much of the geek crowd. I think it's along the same lines of some of the social aspects for some of those people, "these things are hard for me, so they're obviously bad." That's a bad attitude for anyone to have about anything.

Re:Wow

[paganizer]

cheaper? maybe.
Easier to deal with? No doubt at all.
No social issues? probably not.
Able to actually get the job done more efficiently? I note you didn't go that far.

Re:Wow

[paganizer]

I worked with a guy in Indiana, Eric Paul, that could do just about anything I could, and still was one of the better speakers i've been around; he could talk anyone into anything, had no lack of interpersonal skills.

But that is one guy, and maybe 2 others I can think of, in 20 years of IT; and they still weren't the "Wow, he wrote the code on a napkin at lunch that saved the company 3 weeks" types, just really competent. All the people who I've worked with that you could take a unsolvable problem to get it taken care of were not the social types; they are more the Draper types. Not great for day-to-day, they really suck at day-to-day.

So, other people could have done the things that Draper did. Why was it that he did them? Just lucky? Right place at the right time?

Re:Wow

[MyOtherUIDis3digits]

You can be the smartest person in the world but you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish, and people feel you will at any one time snap.

Damn! Now you tell me!

Re:Wow

[dasheel]

thanks for the psycho-babble there Dr. Phil.

Re:Wow

[sgt_doom]

Thanks for your valuable comments, Good Citizen jcr. John's a standup, decent guy with a first-class technoid mind (if you can get past that odor, of course). If you recall the film "Sneakers" - with Robert Redford - parts of it are very very loosely based on John's past, with a different outcome, of course.....

Re:Wow

[4D6963]

There's something you're forgetting. Peanut butter is harmful for a very few people. Tobacco is harmful to *everybody*.

Re:Wow

[easter1916]

You said they were recent grads. I know what to expect from a recent grad. If the argument was purely about experience, Draper'd win. But with the other factors... would rather deal with your "three grads".

Re:Wow

[Darth Liberus]

Unfortunately, I dunno if this is something you CAN teach. While I hesitate to say that these important interpersonal skills are something you are "born with". I would say that they are pretty well ingrained in you by the time you are a teen or maybe even earlier. I don't say you can't learn new things, but, with most people that have the skills....they are second nature and natural for them to use. I'd say it is kind of like being 'witty' and being able to come up with funny things instantly in conversation....a skill that often is a sign someone has exceptional interpersonal skills.

When I was 21 I decided that I was quite capable of learning everything I needed to know about IT on my own. I didn't want to become a typical techie with no social skills so I dropped my CIS classes and got a degree in English instead. When you have to get up and give presentations every week for two years straight talking to people becomes second nature... social skills aren't something you're "just born with", they are very definitely learned.

Not everyone can get a degree in English, but there are plenty of other opportunities to get out and learn how to interact with others. It's more a matter of being willing to take the risk and put yourself out there than any sort of inborn talent.

Re:Wow

[RESPAWN]

This actually reminds me of a discussion I had with some of my friends. Is it possible to dress too nice/fashionable for a tech job interview?

Some of my friends seem to be of the opinion that if you dress too fashionable for a job interview, the interviewer may be less likely to take you seriously as a computer geek. In other words, they think that you should be presentable, but not dress like you're interviewing for an investment job on Wall Street because a "true" geek wouldn't take that much care in his appearance. I think that's not entirely correct, but during my last round of interviewing for a job I did taylor my dress back and dress a bit more conservatively (more traditional cut dress shirt instead of "fitted" cut dress shirt in a lighter, less bold color, and more conservative tie). I'm not sure if it made a difference, but some of my friends think it does.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Cap'n Crunch is notorious for molesting doped-up young boys he meets at raves. He wouldn't get one fucking red cent from me, and I honestly doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

Seriously, the phrase for this 'Emotional Intelligence' and it's in short supply for most geeks/nerds/etc.

I don't think "emotional intelligence" has much to do with business skills. If anything, to succeed in business you need to mute your emotional intelligence, your conscience, etc. Successful businesspeople actually tend toward the pyschotic.

Re:Wow

[charlesnw]

Solomon is that you?

Re:Wow

[misanthrope101]

Well, Einstein bothered to wear a suit. I'd bet Edison showed up in decent clothing, too. Look up Fermi, Von Neumann, Dirac, and all the insanely bright people who built modern physics--all pretty decent dressers. Our culture has come to the point where it accepts slovenly dress, and the geeks have staked out the low end of that low range of acceptable behavior. There is nothing about sandals and t-shirts that are particularly creative. Putting on a shirt with a collar and wearing socks doesn't waste so much of your intellectual energy that now you can't be smart. That's just pretentious, overblown tripe. They're posturing, saying, "I'm too smart to bother dress like you" and for a long time that was allowed. I'm not saying they should be shot, only that I don't have much sympathy.

I also don't have much sympathy for Draper et al. He's an interesting person, but that doesn't pay the rent. He was really good at a narrowly defined field. But that field only exists in the context of filthy rich corporations or military contracts, both of which have pretty well-known rules for the individual to survive and thrive. There are savants in the world who are geniuses in one field but basketcases in others. That's sad, but it doesn't mean that the world wronged them somehow. All of that being said (and I realize that I'm not overflowing with the milk of human kindness) I do find savants fascinating. I've read biographies of Rimbaud, Wittgenstein, Kerouac, and god knows how many others. They do make the world a better, more interesting place. But being interesting doesn't really mean anything in a capitalist society. Or even in non-capitalist societies, for that matter. Rodin starved to death, didn't he? Van Gogh didn't seem to be a highly successful person financially.

Re:Wow

[Nutria]

It's more a matter of being willing to take the risk and put yourself out there than any sort of inborn talent.

I totally disagree.

Yelling at your parents because they smoke, and going to raves when you are in your 50s are, to me, definite indications of a disturbed human being. Heck, like most serious he's probably got Aspergers Syndrome.

Re:Wow

[dbIII]

A guy I know who has written some open source encncyption software in very wide use (so obviously not from the USA) was hit by this when he visited Silicon Valley for meetings - nobody took any technical comments he made seriously in a suit and tie despite having better geek credibility than anybody there. He came back later in jeans and t-shirt and the exact opposite happened. It's still a uniform.

Re:Wow

[Trailwalker]

..something you can teach.

Been taught for a long time. Dale Carnegie wrote the book.

But you have to read it and apply its lessons every day.

Re:Wow

[naoursla]

As long as yelling at someone in public is legal, then it is the other guy's problem too.

Re:Wow

[Lew Payne]

It took a couple of weeks for the blistering and peeling to clear up.
That's only because he refuses to use soap and water, which he probably didn't use even when the ashtray spilled on him.

when he was in jail, he got beaten severely because he refused to tell the mob how to make blue boxes.
Glad you were there to relay the "real" story to us. It couldn't have had anything to do with his attitude toward others, could it?

He has severe back problems to this day because of it.
That's just his excuse for having young boys disrobe and do "back exercises" with him. Several people who have met him can confirm this propensity to be true.

That's hardly the choice that would be made by someone who thinks none of the rules apply to him.
This just serves to prove that when you're devoid of facts, you can rationalize and paint any picture you want. Interpretation - Your interpretation is so far removed from the truth it doesn't even merit a "1:funny" moderation point. Unless you wish to dispute these facts with someone who has actually met Draper several times, and has known both his friends and enemies (such as Nancy Shorr of the SIG-GRAPH group, who can tell quite a bit of stories about Draper herself).

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

What's wrong with going to raves when you're 50? I know plenty of people older than that who go. It's good exercise, keeps you young. Or are "old people" (50 is not very old) just supposed to lead quiet boring lives?

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

If more people believed in principles rather than rules, the world would be a better place.

What if they believed in the principle of slavery? Or the principle of murdering everybody with a "k" in their name? The principles of white supremacy and eugenics?

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

the blanket opinion that "organized sports are stupid" seems to me to be a byproduct of some sort of elitism.

Or perhaps it has nothing to do with elitism, and the person just doesn't like organized sports? Factually speaking, they are stupid - they aren't very intellectual exercises, and have little purpose.

But holding that opinion doesn't mean that one has to be antagonistic towards people who enjoy sports. I don't like competitive spectator sports (although I do play golf and cycle for fitness, fun and socialization). But I don't have any problem with those who do. Am I elitist because watching spectator sports just doesn't do anything for me?

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

There are plenty of nerds who have good social skills.

Yes, but you don't appear to be one of them.

Re:Wow

[tzanger]

There's something you're forgetting. Peanut butter is harmful for a very few people. Tobacco is harmful to *everybody*.

This is true, but until it's illegal I have a right to smoke where it's been deemed "safe". If I had some moron scream at me from a hundred yards away, he'd be receiving my raised middle finger at a minimum.

The funny part is... I don't even smoke.

Re:Wow

[TheoMurpse]

Yes, but you don't appear to be one of them.

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure I have great social skills, but if I don't, please enlighten me! I don't see how any part of my post alludes to a lack of social skills.

However, you could have made your post in jest; in that case, we can blame my mistake not on a lack of social skills, but on the fact that there is no intonation in text for me to use in judging your intent.

Re:Wow

[zobier]

you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish

Unless you're the Admiral of the French Navy.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

Unless you wish to dispute these facts with someone who has actually met Draper several times,

Dude, I worked with him for several months back in 85. Care to jump to any other conclusions?

-jcr

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

So people have poor interpersonal skills because they are arrogant pricks?

Re:Wow

[doom]

Claiming that its their job to avoid smoke is like claiming its your job to avoid my fist if I throw a punch at you.

I'm getting lost on the analogies, as usual, but I am concluding that if I want to avoid idiotic discussions, it's my job to stop reading slashdot.

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure I have great social skills, but if I don't, please enlighten me! I don't see how any part of my post alludes to a lack of social skills.

The tone seemed somewhat anti-social to me.

Re:Wow

[Lew Payne]

Dude, I worked with him for several months back in 85. Care to jump to any other conclusions?

I was unfortunate enough to be involved in several conferences with him, as well as hanging out with him during his temporary stint in Santa Monica (where he gave some speech at some "brand-new concept at the time" Internet Cafe). Back then, an Internet Cafe was simply a place that had any type of hard-wired net connection, hardly anyone had laptop computers, and there was no such thing as WiFi. The best part was when I dated Nancy Shorr. Apparently Draper had tried to disrobe her younger brother, and she caught on to it. They were best of enemies after that, and she spared no words (or details) when it came to exposing Draper for what he really was - a sexual predator with a propensity for young boys.

I also had the misfortune of running into him again when both he and I were living in Fremont, CA. I took him and some other friends to Sizzler, and he was an embarrassment to sit near. Anyone unfortunate enough to sit across from him (assuming you could stand the smell) at the dinner table would soon find themselves under constant attack by a barrage of food particles as Draper constantly attempted to speak and chew at the same time. The spaces missing teeth acted as his launch pad. Also, in the middle of the meal, Draper would stand up and shout across the restaurant... "waitress, I need more shrimp" with total disregard for the patrons around him.

No wonder he eventually went overseas... where young boys are a commodity (and the norm for tourists). But don't take it from me... ask Lenny DiCicco.

Re:Wow

[redcane]

I don't feel you have a great appreciation for the nature of technology at the time, or you lack perspective of a deep thirst for knowledge. The phreaking community wasn't about free phone calls, it was about exploring technology, and understanding it in a way that the designers didn't. Until you can see it from the point of view that he got lectured by a judge after his 3rd arrest for exploring the intangible, you haven't considered it well enough. (I don't mean you have accept this view as your own, you just need to be able to see it as valid).

Re:Wow

[epee1221]

It depends what groups of people you're considering. The "socialites" and the "suits" obviously won't think much of someone who dresses sloppily/unprofessionally and has an abrasive personality. Among geeks, those traits seem to draw admiration. That type of personality even gets some applause from "ordinary" people

Re:Wow

[redcane]

Yeah, but maybe he can do their jobs as well, better than them, both combined, and they should be fired instead. Society imposes a lot of things upon people. You can argue society benefits people as well (and it does if you play by the rules), but no-one asked to be born into this. I don't see a practical alternative, but I see a lot of people struggling to fit, and with basically no interest in fitting in.

Re:Wow

[redcane]

The world might not have wronged them, but it certainly put them in an environment they don't function well in. I imagine you might think about it differently if the world didn't suit you.

Re:Wow

[syousef]

Personally, where I work, I try to be very very conscious about peoples abilities, and completely shut off everything else. I don't care if you're a nice guy or not, doesn't matter at all...unless it impacts your ability to do work or other people's ability to do their work. Stink in a meeting? Whatever, you're doing a great job and don't worry we wouldn't make you meet with our customers directly as we know you wouldn't deal with it well.

If someone is sitting there in a meeting reeking of course it's going to affect their job and everyone else around them because they're not thinking about what's being discussed but about his bad smell. Likewise some hygiene is important or you'll find the employee is always getting sick. If your coder is nicely isolated from the customer because you would be embarassed to let him or her represent the company they can't be doing a very good job. Part of the job is to understand the customer's needs.

I've fired people that I actually liked a lot. I've fired more people that I'd actually hang out with outside of work than people that I wouldn't. On a personal level, I really can't stand some of the people I work with. Bottom line is though, that has just about zero impact on how they do their jobs. It takes all kinds.

Sure you don't fire people because you disagree with aspects unrelated to their job, but if you're sitting there thinking "I hate Bob. He's a twit" of course it's having an effect. You shouldn't be worried about their personal life. That's unprofessional. However if they're rude or arrogant or bring things to the table that lower morale that means they're NOT doing a good job. There isn't anything wrong with firing someone you like if they're unable to do the job and you're unable to help them change that because they're incapable of its impractical.

Re:Wow

[Dr. Cody]

Peanut butter makes very few people cool. Tobacco makes *everybody* cool.

Re:Wow

[Breakfast Pants]

Mitnick, the industry heavy-weight. That's a new one on me. Good job. Nice ruse.

Re:Wow

[Nutria]

What's wrong with going to raves when you're 50?

Raves are where 16yo girls go to pop E and lose their inhibitions.

I know plenty of people older than that who go.

Perverts.

It's good exercise, keeps you young.

Lots of things are good exercise and keep you young, but don't involve Ecstasy-popping teenage girls. Ronald Reagan chopped wood and rode horses well into his 70s.

Or are "old people" (50 is not very old) just supposed to lead quiet boring lives?

That's an invalid leap of logic from my assertion.

Re:Wow

[cthulhu11]

You can be the smartest person in the world but you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish, and people feel you will at any one time snap ... thus your only option will be to found the FSF.

Re:Wow

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Seriously, the phrase for this 'Emotional Intelligence' and it's in short supply for most geeks/nerds/etc.

I don't think it is. It's just that geeks/nerds/etc. who have it blend in with the rest of society, for the most part.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

I've heard those rumors about John, too. I do notice however, that none of the people (like you) who repeat them have ever filed a charge. Now, if you know of a crime, you have moral duty to report it to the relevant authorities. Until and unless you do so, I see no reason to believe you.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[misanthrope101]

It doesn't suit me. I'm not good at any of the games that result in wealth, power, and oodles of loose women. But I recognize that the world is what it is. It preexisted me, and will outlast me. If I expect it to change to suit me, I will only increase my own unhappiness. If I can learn to adapt myself to either exploit, accomodate, accept, or tolerate the places where the world works differently than I do, then I will be more happy, not less. But if you fight against the world, you will lose. Being good with electronics, or math, or music, or art, doesn't change that. Happiness may actually be largely overrated. Van Gogh was no doubt miserable, as was Mozart. If geniuses were well-adjusted and emotionally balanced we'd have a lot fewer masterpieces in the world.

Re:Wow

[Lew Payne]

I've heard those rumors about John, too. I do notice however, that none of the people (like you) who repeat them have ever filed a charge.

Only the victim or the district attorney can "file a charge" in a criminal case. Witnesses can only report the incident to authorities.

Now, if you know of a crime, you have moral duty to report it to the relevant authorities. Until and unless you do so, I see no reason to believe you.

Do you know for a fact that I didn't report it, or are you just operating on assumption again? HAND.

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

Raves are where 16yo girls go to pop E and lose their inhibitions.

Uhh, no. Sure some 16 year-olds go - but they are not a particular majority. people from all walks of life go. And while many take drugs, many also don't, and go for the music and dancing. Electronic music and dancing is a passion and hobby for many people, just like computers are for geeks. Lots of people who were around for the early days of the techno culture are well into their 50s or older by now. If you like electronic music, are you just supposed to give it up when you reach a certain age? Should geeks give up computers at 50, because they are just for pimply geeks playing immature computer games?

Perverts.

Why?

Ronald Reagan chopped wood and rode horses well into his 70s.

For most people, going to a rave is more fun than chopping wood. Why can't exercise be fun and involve cultural participation as well?

That's an invalid leap of logic from my assertion.

Well, what is behind your assertion, other than a completely stereotypical and narrow view of what raves can be like? It sounds like you have never been to one, or if you have, haven't experienced the wide variety of types of rave there are.

Re:Wow

[mindriot]

You can sit next to someone eating a peanut with no ill effects.

Not quite true. If peanuts (or peanut-containing snacks) are in the same room as me, standing around openly, then sooner or later my eyes will start to water and burn and my nose starts to run. And mind you, I'm only mildly allergic to peanuts, that is I don't immediately need to be taken to the emergency room if I've eaten something with peanuts in. Other people have it worse.

And really, tzanger's post just aggravates me. Fine, we can send everyone who is "anaphylactic" or in other ways not quite normal to "somewhere safe"... maybe put them in a "school for the weak" or something like that so you, tzanger, don't have to be bothered by it? I guess it's the only solution since not being able to have peanut butter in school seems to be the end of the world for some kids. Health-based segregation, hmm... wonder how much that's going to cost us...

Back from this slightly off-topic rant, of course this is no excuse for Cap'n Crunch's behavior. It's understandable when you know his background, but I'm sure he could explain himself nicely to the smoker next to him to make him stop smoking.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

Do you know for a fact that I didn't report it, or are you just operating on assumption again?

Did you, or are you just posturing as it appears?

-jcr

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

What I can't figure out is how if smoking bothers him that much, he can possibly handle going to raves.

I used to see him around Atlanta and SF bay area parties (and hacker meet ups) in the late 90s. He's a pretty strange dude in person.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

dangitman, you're a total asshole, but that was a fucking funny comment.

Re:Wow

[somersault]

Yeah that sounds pretty similar to me, and I guess a lot of people on /. really. Interesting what the guy said below about being 'obedient' when you're younger stopping you from having proper relationships, I was brought up pretty strictly, and towards the end of high school part of the reason I didn't just go out with my peers was that I knew they were just getting drunk and my parents wouldn't approve of that. I also didn't know for sure how I'd act in a situation with alcohol, but I learned my limits while at University, which is probably a better place to experiment anyway.

Re:Wow

[packeteer]

Instead of taking the 1 or 2 kids who are anaphylactic and putting them somewhere safe, we instead sanitize the entire school system, at great expense, and at marginal benefit

So what should we do? Round up everyone who is different and put them "somewhere safe". First of all i think most people can disagree on moral grounds to what you just said but let me convince you why you are wrong by appealing to your selfishness. If we rounded up the few kids who were different in 1 way where does it stop? Every single person belongs to some kind of minority group, even you and even your children. We cant put aside people that are different or else nobody will be left. We need to find reasonable measures to protect the population and i think we can agree that not having peanut butter in school is not a big deal. If you said not having wheat in school then maybe thats pushing it but peanut butter is not required for anyone in school to have.

The same goes for tobacco. Nobody needs to have tobacco, it is a choice to use it and its not a choice if it effects you negativly.

Re:Wow

[GeckoX]

[blockquote]They're posturing, saying, "I'm too smart to bother dress like you"[/blockquote]

You might want to take a step back and take a look at yourself and your views on things that don't conform to 'the way you think things should be'. I'm quite certain you don't even realize what you are doing, but lets just say hypocrisy is definitely involved.

It's probably more like he's too smart to even register what something as moot as how _you_ dress on a daily basis.

Why should ANYONE bother to dress like _you_? Hmm? Do you have any idea at all how arrogant that comes off? Your post hides it well, but it's right there under the surface. Conform with whatever ideal you see fit, or be an outcast and subject to your ridicule.

Tell me this, what do you do that fashion should even be a remote consideration in whether you can do a good job at it or not? Unless you're a fashion designer or a professional jet setter (Not a job btw)...

Tolerance is a wonderful trait.

Re:Wow

[Lew Payne]

Did you, or are you just posturing as it appears?

The information you're requesting is exempt from the disclosure requirements of the Public Records Act. As such, you are not entitled to receive same.

Re:Wow

[dangitman]

Yes. Grow up, for $DEITY's sake. (Note that I have the same disdain for Rock And Rollers who still Rock And Roll past age 35.)

Why? Is music just for kids, or something?

The Baby Boomer focus on Youth as the be-all and end-all lead them to do all sorts of stupid things to "maintain their youth", when they should be getting jobs (that does not imply becoming wage slave!), having families and dressing like adults instead of large 20 year olds.

Ummm, most people who like rock'n'roll and electronic music DO have jobs. And enjoying music is something for all ages, not just those trying to "reclaim youth."

It sounds like you are the one with problems. There's something a bit sick and disturbing about calling people perverts and having disdain for them just because they like to have fun and enjoy different music than you. Talk about narrow-minded! You appear to have a very unhealthy attitude towards life and other people.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

I'll take that as a no.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[Nutria]

Yes. Grow up, for $DEITY's sake. (Note that I have the same disdain for Rock And Rollers who still Rock And Roll past age 35.)

Why? Is music just for kids, or something?

Is R&R the only music? I don't think so.

And enjoying music is something for all ages, not just those trying to "reclaim youth."

Another example of your narrow-mindedness in taking for granted that R&R is the only music.

Re:Wow

[NDPTAL85]

Or perhaps Draper should have been listening when he was 8 years old to learn how normal people act in social situations. Making people uncomfortable is always going to get you picked on.

Re:Wow

[NDPTAL85]

So you are actually defending someone who smells bad and refuses to shower to not make his co-worker's life a living hell?

Re:Wow

[NDPTAL85]

Or he could be a savant and is not capable of dressing like others.

Look, being abnormally different is just plain stupid most of the time. I know you're going to carp big about individuality and freedom of expression and everything but in very few cases does deviating from the norm actually improve on things.

And why should fashion be a remote consideration in his job performance? What are you, an autistic? This soft stuff matters. Until you can transfer to a Vulcan outpost, the soft stuff will ALWAYS matter.

Get it?

Re:Wow

[4D6963]

I agree, as long as it's legal, feel free to do it and fuck anyone who won't let you :-).

Re:Wow

[johnsawyercjs]

For what it's worth, Draper is no longer in his 50s--he was born in 1944 (I don't know the date), so he's now 62 or 63. But he did start going to raves when he was in his 50s, and sometimes still does. Though as others have commented here, going to raves in one's 50s (or later) isn't necessarily a sign of being disturbed.

As for yelling at one's parents because they smoke, I don't know the whole reason he did that, but I'd say getting after people because they smoke isn't a bad idea, whether or not you think it's politically correct or anyone's business but the smoker's. Getting after a close relative for smoking could be considered concern for one's family members. Draper claims to have a tobacco smoke allergy; I don't know if that's real, or whether he's concerned about his health risks for breathing secondhand smoke, and claims the allergy in order to give him more ammunition around smokers.

Re:Wow

[johnsawyercjs]

From what I've seen, Draper doesn't exactly "scream" at people who smoke somewhere near him (at least not everyone)--usually he just gets antsy with them (OK, pretty antsy sometimes). And I'd be surprised if he yells at people smoking in a designated smoking area and tells them to stop, but I haven't seen him in this situation.

Re:Wow

[bigred85]

--That type of personality even gets some applause from "ordinary" people

True nuff, but I was really referring more to outward appearance (dress, hygiene, etc.) than I was to a particular personality. It's one thing to not give a damn as part of your personality. It's when the only parts of you you're apathetic towards are your smell and general appearance that people tend to be turned off; I would wager to say that even most geeks or Gregory Houses would turn away from a chronic non-bather.

Talk about evil

[szembek]

"helped develop the technology for word processing and voice-activated telephone menus". Thanks a lot buddy. YES, NO, NO, MAIN MENU, YES, ACCOUNT BALANCE!!

Re:Talk about evil

[91degrees]

I think you said, "Transfer my entire balance to Bill Gates. To confirm, say 'Yes'"

Re:Talk about evil

[welshwaterloo]

Man, you've got the weirdest word processor..

Re:Talk about evil

[tarlos25]

So he's the one I can blame when I get voice recognition systems that respond to someone else in the room breathing. "Ok, everyone leave the room, I have to call a voice recognition system."

Re:Talk about evil

[LMacG]

The amazing thing is the his screen displayed "Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all."

Re:Talk about evil

[Hoi Polloi]

I'm sorry, I did not get that. Please repeat that.

Ok, you said "GO TO HELL"

Much more in Secret History of Hacking documentary

[toby]

For a historical overview, detailed reminiscences of phreaking and interviews with Draper, Wozniak and Mitnick, see The Secret History of Hacking (50 minutes). In particular it details how the phreaking story hit national headlines, how Draper and Wozniak met, prank calling the Vatican, and the blind hacker with perfect pitch who can control phone switches around the world by whistling.

Kinda Sad.

[jellomizer]

It is kinda sad to see a pioneer live the rest of his life in near poverity. But it also shows that in order to make it in the world you do need some ballance in your life. In order for society to respect you you must respect society. He bairly respected society and now society barly respects him.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Peter Cooper]

That's a nice sentiment, but it's not really true. Look at Steve Jobs. He's not known for his respect to others.

I think I'd rewrite it to say.. in order for society to respect you, you must know how to manipulate society.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[radarsat1]

I think its a common and sad misconception to think that people with alternative lifestyles are "disrespecting society". Usually they have alternative lifestyles because "society" doesn't satisfy them.

To put it another way... they don't go out of their way to piss off society, it's just that society is so easily hurt, and they're not going to let that slow them down.

(caveat: sure, some people _do_ go out of their way to piss off society. Also, of course there are limits. And there are those who understand those limits and those who don't. I'm not making excuses here, but I think its a little unfair to say that people who don't choose to wear a tie and work 9-5 are "disrepecting society".)

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it sadder to see "a pioneer live the rest of his life in near poverity" than to see anyone not born with his talents, who may be kind and thoughtful rather than "shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him" living in abject poverty?

Treat people like shit and they will reciprocate. 1+1=?

Re:Kinda Sad.

[LWATCDR]

kind of sad but really his choice.
He has had and blown more money than most of us well ever have.
The man made trips to India for fun.
In many ways not that different than rock stars that blow all their money. Lots of good hard working people end up with problems not of their own making. Many of John Drapers problems where of his own making. How many times did he go to jail for freaking?
He wrote a word processing program he didn't cure smallpox or feed the poor.
I feel bad that he made so many bad choices but I am impressed by all the help and chances he gets.
A lot of people seem to really care about him and try to help him. How if he could just make some better choices.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Anonymous Coward]

alternative lifestyles

BUTT RAPER DRAPER!

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet millions of people hang on his every fucking word. Jesus, it must have escaped your notice that some of the most brilliant business leaders and entrepreneurs are borderline sociopaths?

Re:Kinda Sad.

[boyfaceddog]

Wow, that is such a load of Ameri-centric crap.

Here are some interesting bits of trivia you might wish to ponder.
1) Not everyone believes that the great Euopean-derived society is either correct 100% of the time or even basically ethical. These people do not care for western society's respect.
2) Contrary to what everyone in America thinks, having money does not prove you are better than other people. Witness Ms. Hilton, President Bush, and Mr. Gates as examples of this.

What is sad is that so many people look down their noses as someone who has contributed so much over the course of his life and ask for so little in return.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[GeckoX]

Is this how we measure someone's worth and success? By how one fits into 'society'?

What is poverty? Have you ever thought about that? Is a homeless person poor because they don't have a car and a wide screen TV? What if those things wouldn't bring them any sort of happiness anyways?

How many hugely successful people that are highly respected by society end up so unhappy that they end it all themselves?

I'd suggest that the kind of attitude that you're presenting is very very dangerous indeed. There are as many different ways to live a life as there are people living it. Try not to judge those that choose a different path than you.

Personally, I have great respect for anyone that chooses to do their own thing, regardless of what others think or do because of it.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[pilgrim23]

Columbus died in a poverty too. It is never the explorer, it is always the exploiter... his middle managers, 2 accountants, and the guys from marketing that walk off with the prize

Re:Kinda Sad.

[rs79]

"It's kinda sad to see a pioneer live the rest of his life in near poverity."

Like Ghandi?

Re:Kinda Sad.

[mbstone]

Only by the grace of God have you, or I, avoided (so far) ending up like Draper. Few people are more than a couple of bad breaks from life in a sleazy apartment or even a vehicle. Impending old age and health/mobility impairments may augur a bleak future for many techies who were more interested in tinkering than in raising VC.

Meanwhile, big successful technology companies are starting charitable foundations to help people in ...Africa.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Maltheus]

"It's kinda sad to see a pioneer live the rest of his life in near poverity."

Like Ghandi?

No, that fuck deserved it.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Not everyone believes that the great Euopean-derived society is either correct 100% of the time or even basically ethical. These people do not care for western society's respect.

Not everyone believes that Western Society is evil. In fact, many people recognize the great things that western society has brought to this world, techonology included.

2) Contrary to what everyone in America thinks, having money does not prove you are better than other people. Witness Ms. Hilton, President Bush, and Mr. Gates as examples of this.

Not everyone in America thinks that. What is sad is when people make generalizations about 300 million people based on their own biases and misguided hatred.

Why so much WSJ?

[Ninjaesque One]

I read the WSJ, and it seems that every other day or so, a WSJ tech story comes onto /. Is it just some special, year-long coincidence, or does the WSJ have a godlike tech section in addition to the greatest business section ever?

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[iamdrscience]

Yeah, I read the WSJ pretty regularly too and I don't mind so much that a lot of their articles get posted to slashdot as I do that they get posted waaaay after they're published in the WSJ. I mean, if you read the WSJ it's like you're getting more than half of the interesting posts on slashdot but a week or two in advance.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[joshv]

Throw in Wired, OSNews, the NY Times, and Arstechnica - you'll get about 95% of slashdot articles, days in advance.

I just come here for the intelligent discussions.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[baldass_newbie]

I just come here for the intelligent discussions.

Oh, stop the karma whoring. It won't get you anywhere.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[LordOfTheNoobs]

if karma whoring didn't get you anywhere, there would be very few karma whores

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[theodicey]

It's because Carl Bialik is the new Roland Piquepaille. He submits a million articles, and they all get posted. Which is not to say he's the new Beatles-Beatles.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[joshv]

I was being facetious. As this very thread so deliciously illustrates, there is a decided lack of intelligent commentary.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[LordOfTheNoobs]

I knew you were be facetious, I was mostly just chiming into the line noise. However. I disagree on your second statement. Slashdot may be rife with silliness and whatnot, but I've found a lot of good information in the comments on this site over the years, and still do. Of course, now I may now be misreading your intended intonation and confusing your second sentence for seriousness when you intended more facetiousness. Ah well, the perils of textual communication.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[vtcodger]

***I read the WSJ, and it seems that every other day or so, a WSJ tech story comes onto /. Is it just some special, year-long coincidence, or does the WSJ have a godlike tech section in addition to the greatest business section ever?***

Just a guess, but my general feeling is that the rather small free portion of the WSJ web site is heavily weighted toward tech material. At least that was the case last year when I checked the WSJ site most days. Haven't got around to setting up a link yet on this PC.

Re:Why so much WSJ?

[epee1221]

Oh come on, Funny mods don't get you karma!

How Strange

[eldavojohn]

Mr. Wozniak says Mr. Draper's problem is that his skills lie in technology rather in making business deals or starting a company. "He didn't come from a business orientation," says Mr. Wozniak.

That's funny, "not coming from a business orientation" is pretty desirable when I'm looking for someone to talk to. I think Mr. Draper's real problems were that he picked the wrong friends when he was starting out & incurred legal fees he couldn't afford. If one of my friends was ever living in a vehicle, I'd be certain to lend a hand. Especially if I was some Apple hot shot. I guess my definition of "friend" differs from Mr. Wozniak's. A bright man under utilized in our society. And the article points out all of his problems. Although he made mistakes, I doubt his situation is entirely his fault. Another misunderstood engineer.

Re:How Strange

[jcr]

I think Mr. Draper's real problems were that he picked the wrong friends when he was starting out & incurred legal fees he couldn't afford.

Well, getting busted didn't help, either. After he called up Tricky Dick, the FBI didn't waste much time tracking him down.

-jcr

Re:How Strange

[Reality Master 101]

A bright man under utilized in our society. And the article points out all of his problems. Although he made mistakes, I doubt his situation is entirely his fault. Another misunderstood engineer.

With certain exceptions (e.g., things you can't control, like some forms of cancer, mental illness, etc), someone's problems are ALWAYS their own fault. For example, if your boss screws you, it's YOUR fault for not being careful.

Re:How Strange

[tinkerghost]

Especially if I was some Apple hot shot. I guess my definition of "friend" differs from Mr. Wozniak's.

I doubt it differs that much, from the article, The Woz has paid for his legal bills.

Re:How Strange

[Just Some Guy]

If one of my friends was ever living in a vehicle, I'd be certain to lend a hand.

Says you. Without personally knowing the people involved, you can't possibly say that. My best friend from childhood - more like a brother, really - has been homeless for well over a decade. I've gotten him three different jobs that he held for a couple weeks before not showing up one day. He's sane, inasmuch as he's acting rationally: he's not willing to invest the responsibility necessary to maintain a fixed living space. What more can I do to help him?

Maybe Woz tried to give Cap'n a hand up a few too many times and got tired of it. Again, without being personally involved in the relationship, you can't know.

Re:How Strange

[thegnu]

With certain exceptions (e.g., things you can't control, like some forms of cancer, mental illness, etc)

You shouldn't sit in front of the microwave, and you should learn another language. ;-)

But yeah. There are plenty of things you can do to avoid cancer. But I'm not going to tell you what they are. Because you won't do them anyway. I don't.

Re:How Strange

[dave420]

If the help you're giving them doesn't seem to be doing the trick, give them different help! If they've got a place to live, a job, and they still don't turn up for work, get them some counselling. Get them the help they need to keep going to the job. Friends don't just shrug their shoulders, go "meh", and walk away. They don't "get tired". They keep helping. What you described is not a friend.

Re:How Strange

[Just Some Guy]

See, you just proved my point. I've been doing everything I can to help him for over 15 years, but you write it off as shrugging my shoulders and walking away. Well, the truth is a lot more complex than that, and without knowing me and my friend, you have no means to evaluate your hypothesis.

Re:How Strange

[dave420]

"Maybe Woz tried to give Cap'n a hand up a few too many times and got tired of it"

That's not being a friend. If the help you're giving someone isn't working, try something new. There is always help for someone. I don't need to know you OR your friend - who I'm not even talking about - this is not deducing motives, but actions. Someone stopping helping their friend FOR ANY REASON is not being as good a friend as they can. Simple. It doesn't matter if one friend is Hitler and the other Mother Theresa - motives, feelings, pizza preference, whatever - it doesn't come into it :)

Re:How Strange

[Anonymous Coward]

You're quite the judgemental, narrowminded asshole aren't you.

It's bad enough that the OP has a bum friend he is trying to help out without stupid know-it-alls like you railing on him because his friend is beyond redemption. I bet you're the kind of person who blames the families of alcoholics because they don't "do enough" to help.

Who the fuck have you helped?

Re:How Strange

[Teddy Beartuzzi]

You can't help people that *don't want* to be helped.

Re:How Strange

[onkelonkel]

"There is always help for someone."

Don't be so quick to judge.

Some people CAN NOT be helped.

Some people WILL NOT be helped.

In between "100% integrated into society mundane person" and "Bat shit crazy, living in a cardboard box under an overpass person" there is a vast continuum. Some people are not "sane" (for want of a better word) enough to make good decisions, interact successfully with other people, function in society or look after themselves. These same people are not "insane" enough to be a danger to anyone but themselves, and therefore cannot be institutionalized. Anyone with a family member who has schizophrenia will know what I'm talking about.

I don't know Mr. Draper, so I'm speculating here, but the description of him and his habits sure sounds like a moderately high-functioning schizophrenic.

Re:How Strange

[ToastyKen]

Have you ever actually had a friend in such situations? Other people can only help so much. There's a point where any additional help only perpetuates certain patterns of behavior, and being a "good friend" only ends up dragging you down with them, in which case you then have two screwed up people instead of one. Yes, it's important to be a good friend and help out when the situation is truly desperate, but eventually it's the responsibility of the person in trouble to figure out how to sustainably improve their own life.

Far from a selfish act, it can be the hardest thing in the world to distance yourself from a friend in need, but sometimes it's the right thing to do for BOTH people.

Re:How Strange

[cayenne8]

"If the help you're giving them doesn't seem to be doing the trick, give them different help! If they've got a place to live, a job, and they still don't turn up for work, get them some counselling. Get them the help they need to keep going to the job. Friends don't just shrug their shoulders, go "meh"..."

I dunno. You cannot do things FOR people. At some point, you really do have to wash your hands of the problem. I think in many cases, this is the best thing to do...let the person hit rock bottom, and maybe that will finally 'jog' them into action. Some people will live on handouts and the good will of others just as long as you let them.

Sometimes 'tough love' is not only justified...it is necessary for your sanity and theirs.

Re:How Strange

[easter1916]

Hear, hear. Although I believe it's P.C. to call it "bipolar disorder" these days. Just walked away from a good friend after three years of struggling to help him as his mania caused him to lose jobs, steal things, cheat on and beat on his girlfriend, break and steal my things, physically assault people, etc.

He's bipolar and won't take his meds. I'm done. It's a shame, but his illness makes him an asshole and he refuses to address it. I'm DONE. Especially after he tried to ruin my marriage -- dave420, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You sound like an over-sheltered, young fool.

Re:How Strange

[easter1916]

"misunderstood engineer"? Please, spare me. Social incompetent, more like. Probably bi-polar, or borderline b.p. His problems are his own. What's to "understand"? That he has B.O. and refuses to behave like a normal person? I'm an intelligent guy too, with reasonable skills, both social and technical. I suppose I'm misunderstood too, since I am merely middle-class and comfortable as opposed to wealthy like Steve Jobs. Who should I blame, please? And where's my payoff?

Re:How Strange

[mollymoo]

Speaking generally, as I don't know the details: What about the other friend? The one you are helping, who keeps screwing up every effort to help them you make and keeps asking for help. Isn't there a point where they are being such a poor friend to you that, well, they aren't really your friend any more?

Re:How Strange

[Just Some Guy]

Note: schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are two different diseases.

Re:How Strange

[easter1916]

Gah! My bad. I read schizophrenia, saw "manic depression". Yes, you are of course correct. Totally different diseases.

Re:How Strange

[WNight]

Perhaps a 9-5 and a roof isn't his main concern. Being homeless isn't the same everywhere. Does it mean he's outside in a blizzard, or sleeping on beaches with a friend's garage to use if the weather gets rough?

A friend's relative is homeless due to a mix of mental conditions that he partially takes meds for. He's not happy with any attempt to control him, so he tends to wander during the warm months, dropping by various family for food, and living in a room above the garage at his brother's during the winter. He seems honestly to prefer rough conditions and no rules to living inside with fancier stuff and a million societal rules he doesn't "get". They all pitch in to send him to a doctor and dentist, and he does chores to help when feeling up to it, but that's as much help as he wants.

Re:How Strange

[Darby]

That's not being a friend. If the help you're giving someone isn't working, try something new. There is always help for someone. I don't need to know you OR your friend - who I'm not even talking about - this is not deducing motives, but actions. Someone stopping helping their friend FOR ANY REASON is not being as good a friend as they can. Simple. It doesn't matter if one friend is Hitler and the other Mother Theresa - motives, feelings, pizza preference, whatever - it doesn't come into it :)

One of my brothers is probably in worse shape than Capn Crunch, since he doesn't even have any "skillz" at all.
He had every opportunity in the world to make something out of his life and he has consistently refused to do so.

There isn't one of us that he hasn't lived with and robbed.
He's been sent to rehab several times and prison several more.

This is all over a period of more than 20 years.

We have all tried many different things to help from simply providing money, food and a place to stay, to helping get him jobs, to paying for education, tutoring and the like.

So, while it's nice to believe that people can always be saved from themselves, I don't believe it.

Given 20 years of Meth addiction, his brain is well and truly fried. He, for the most part, can't even string together words into meaningful sentences.

If I were to invite him into my house, then I know full well that he would steal shit *whether he needed money or not*.
If I let him live there, it would only be a matter of time until I came home and found my wife beaten to a bloody pulp because *that's the sort of shit he does*. And goes to prison for. Repeatedly. With no concern for the consequences, or the fact that it's his own family he's destroying.

So, there is no way in hell his friends and family are going to be able to pull him out of this since he has no real interest in pulling himself out.

At some point, in some situations, your best course is to just let them make their own way for better or worse.

So, while I find your sentiment admirable, I also find it rather naive.

Re:How Strange

[Anonymous Coward]

If the help you're giving them doesn't seem to be doing the trick, give them different help! If they've got a place to live, a job, and they still don't turn up for work, get them some counselling. Get them the help they need to keep going to the job. Friends don't just shrug their shoulders, go "meh", and walk away. They don't "get tired". They keep helping.

It's not always a matter of getting tired. I've had to walk away from real, true friends before, because it was simply the best thing to do in the situation. I'm talking about someone whose story sounds similar to these. Someone who wouldn't do the things necessary to keep a job (like remembering not to intentionally piss off the management so that they fire you). Someone who eventually wound up living in their vehicle at one point (well actually, more than one).

In my case, I had tried for many years to help the person. I took time away from work to help them deal with crisis situations (of their own creation, ultimately), lent them money when they couldn't make the rent, supported them emotionally when things got bad, etc., etc. But they kept doing pretty antisocial things (not the type of things that will send you to jail, but unscrupulous things nevertheless) and showed no intention to change the things that were causing them (oh, and others) serious problems, even after I and others confronted them about it.

Eventually I came to a realization. This is a person who has the capacity to do all this crap for themselves if they want to. They have the capacity to cope with these things on their own. My "helping" them is really not helping them. Instead, I'm lessening the impact of bad decision making, which just reduces the motivation to make better decisions. Any "help" I was giving them was just encouraging them to stay stuck in a pattern of behavior that needs to result in disruptive, change-causing consequences. The more I "help" them, the easier I make it for them to avoid the work necessary to develop their ability to cope with things on their own. My "help" is actually holding them back. Also, by hanging out with them, I was implicitly sending them the message that on some level, I approved of or at least would tolerate they way they were treating others and (just as importantly) the way they were treating themselves.

So, that was it. I told them I couldn't be friends with them anymore, told them why, that it didn't mean that I hate them but it did mean I thought there were some serious issues they needed to deal with, and that was about all. I wrestled with the question of whether I was doing the right thing or abandoning them, and eventually I concluded that it was not about whether breaking ties with someone is bad. Instead, it's all about whether I was doing the best thing for both of us, and whether I had the right motivation. Was I doing it because I was tired? Certainly I was tired and stressed out by it all, but that had been the case for years. Ultimately, I decided I was doing it because it was simply better for both of us, so I was OK with my decision. In fact, I was more than OK with it: I think any other decision would have been wrong and harmful.

On a sort of a side note, I bumped into a mutual friend maybe a year later, and he said that the guy had been doing much better, making more progress in therapy than he had in years or quite possibly ever, and apparently starting to get some things straightened out. I'm sure everything didn't get fixed overnight, but it sounded like he was on the right track. I'm not going to be an idiot and claim credit for it, but I will say the thought occurred to me that losing a real friend might've been a wake-up call. Or maybe it was just that having someone around who tried to "help" was actually a net negative for him, at least as regards personal growth, so my decision to go away could've been part of what made it possible for him to go forward. Or, I dunno, maybe it was all coincidence, and that was just the time he decided he was really ready to do something about it.

Gosh, I guess I'd better hit the "Post Anonymously" checkbox.

Re:How Strange

[dangitman]

So, if someone gets raped or shot, it is their fault for not evading the rapist/bullet?

Re:How Strange

[Reality Master 101]

So, if someone gets raped or shot, it is their fault for not evading the rapist/bullet?

Depends on the circumstances. If you go to the bank and it's robbed, you couldn't have reasonably avoided the crime. If you walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town at 2am, you deserve what you get.

Re:How Strange

[dangitman]

If you walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town at 2am, you deserve what you get.

Why? Last time I checked, it was still a crime to shoot somebody.

Re:How Strange

[Reality Master 101]

Why? Last time I checked, it was still a crime to shoot somebody.

I didn't say it wasn't a crime or that the perpetrator shouldn't be punished, only that it's mostly the victim's fault. Stupidity led directly to the circumstance. As I told my kid just this morning, "Accidents happen for a reason. They don't 'just happen'." Unfortunately, too many adults have a child-like view of responsibility.

Re:How Strange

[dangitman]

I didn't say it wasn't a crime or that the perpetrator shouldn't be punished, only that it's mostly the victim's fault.

Mostly the victim's fault? Surely it is mostly the fault of the person who pulled the trigger?

Stupidity led directly to the circumstance.

So, what happens if you live in the "bad neighborhood" and have to walk home from work at night? Your fault for your living circumstances? And how does one tell what a "bad neighborhood" is anyway? Some places look "bad" but are pretty safe. And other places look pretty safe, but have plenty of crime. Is it the victims fault if it happens in a place that seems safe?

Re:How Strange

[Reality Master 101]

Mostly the victim's fault? Surely it is mostly the fault of the person who pulled the trigger?

The crime itself is the fault of the perpetrator. The circumstance is the fault of the victim. If you knowingly and willingly put yourself in harm's way, you deserve the harm.

Your fault for your living circumstances?

Of course it's their fault (at least, in rich countries like the US where one has choices). Or to put it another way, if it's not their fault where they live, whose fault is it? -sigh- Wouldn't it be a great world if everyone took responsibility for their own circumstances?

Is it the victims fault if it happens in a place that seems safe?

See my prior comments.

Re:How Strange

[dangitman]

Of course it's their fault (at least, in rich countries like the US where one has choices).

You only have the choice if you have plenty of money. And if you are a child, you don't get that choice. Is it your fault where your parents decide to live? You know, there is this thing called poverty, so not everyone has the choice of living in a "good" neighborhood.

Wouldn't it be a great world if everyone took responsibility for their own circumstances?

When you don't have any power or choice over those responsibilities, then what responsibility can you take?

In any case, you seem to be advocating lack of responsibility for actions, by blaming the victim rather than the perpetrator. Perhaps it is those who are deliberately doing harm who should be taking responsibility? And perhaps society should be taking more responsibility for its actions, which help cause things like the poverty gap and crime.

See my prior comments.

What you call "stupidity" could be a minor error of judgement, or even bad luck. I'm pretty sure that if something bad happened to you, you would not be blaming yourself, but justifying your actions as smart, and your attacker's actions as wrong.

Re:How Strange

[unitedfuries]

I have managed to read 1/2 way through the thread on Cap`n Crunch. I might be the only person who has worked with John Draper and made sure he was (somewhat) financially successful. I managed the business and assisted in helping John manage his money. It worked, and then it did not work. He was given the benefit of the doubt. He did well in those years, not great. The business was Cap'n Software (1977-1884) and despite the fact of John's programming abilities "EasyWriter" was finished and we managed to have an update on both the Apple II as well as the IBM PC 1982 word processing version. Yes, John is hard to work with but he a spirit continuing on a quest to push the envelope over the edge despite his fallacies. I admire his dealing with "fear". You will always make mistakes, whine and bitch as well as moan and groan. His label was an "idiot savant" of which falls under Asperger Syndrome. I understand why his reputation is soiled by his "workouts". Remember, everyone's parents are responsible for their children. John is well meaning and if he can get his story straight, he's truthful. This takes reading between the lines. It is true, "real hackers" are not caught with the hands in the "bluebox". My world was another where I was not caught. So, to the best of my abilities, I have worked with John to raise his social consciences, and John has improved by 5-10% according to my associates. You are never too old to learn. To this day I am still his friend's and has always encouraged him to be aware of the "boogiemen" taking advantage and or haunting him.... Yes, it is up to him to listen, but John does it his way...

Re:How Strange

[Anonymous Coward]

How? I mean, come on, this is ridiculous. For someone to be your friend, they have to try getting you jobs over and over, and buy you counselling if it doesn't work out? Ridiculous. Maybe for people to be a TRUE friend they should buy you a fancy house and car too, and some suits (for a crap corporate job)/new clothes (for a good job).

          A lot of people I know are looking for better jobs for themselves too (either no job or very low paying, including my own being pretty low). It burns bridges when you use your contacts to push someone that turns out to be a flake... I definitely would not keep doing it either. And, yes, someone can be your friend AND be flakey and unreliable! I'd give someone a lift to counselling, help fill out forms if they need, but simply don't have the $$$ to *pay* for it.. should I skip my food or heat to pay for a friends counselling?

So?

[Das Auge]

Being intelligent doesn't mean that you'll be rich. Becoming rich takes a certain amount of business acumen or just plain luck.

He obviously didn't make smart business decisions and chose to go to a rave instead of a business meeting and now he's paying (or not) for it.

This is no way means that I don't think that he did some great things or wasn't an interesting person. It just seems like the WSJ is trying to go for the easy, tear-jerker, story.

Re:So?

[Rob the Bold]

Being intelligent doesn't mean that you'll be rich. Becoming rich takes a certain amount of business acumen or just plain luck.

Ah, good ol' Ecclesiates 9:11.

This is no way means that I don't think that he did some great things or wasn't an interesting person. It just seems like the WSJ is trying to go for the easy, tear-jerker, story.

I guess in the thinking of the WSJ, a skilled and intelligent guy failing to become rich is a tear-jerker. Sure, money does offer a certain degree of freedom, but too much can be just as enslaving -- or so I've heard. If I find out I'll let you know.

Re:So?

[baldass_newbie]

Sure, money does offer a certain degree of freedom, but too much can be just as enslaving

Freedom is Responsibility

Re:So?

[jo42]

It also doesn't mean that you have the money grubbing gene in your pool.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

He obviously didn't make smart business decisions and chose to go to a rave instead of a business meeting

...or a dentist. (ducks)

Re:So?

[Lord Ender]

Too much money can be enslaving? That's one of those myths the poor like to pass around to console themselves for sucking at life. It's like that "money can't buy happiness" BS.

The fact is, the more money you have, the more freedom and the less stress you have. You can manage it as actively or as passively as you like. I wouldn't call it enslaving to set up a simple rotating CD, collect interest checks once a month, and live the rest of my life on the beach in the Caribbean (or wherever the hell else I wanted to be). If I want to be a slave and react to every minor fluctuation of the stock market, I can. But that's my choice.

Re:Much more in Secret History of Hacking document

[jcr]

Why are you working so hard at giving ACs a bad name?

Grow up, kid.

-jcr

Parallels?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was reading about this guy, I couldn't help but think of the similarities between him and RMS. I couldn't decide if it was amazing how two similar people could end up going in two different directions, or if this was foreshadowing the future for RMS.

Re:Parallels?

[xtracto]

couldn't help but think of the similarities between him and RMS. I couldn't decide if it was amazing how two similar people could end up going in two different directions, or if this was foreshadowing the future for RMS.

Interesting... I guess the main issue is that although they might share a similarity on the "hippiesque" attitude they are certainly different.

Anyway, I feel really sorry for Mr. Draper, there was a time during my early University years (1998) when I read a lot about the old school hacking/phreaking/cracking scene. I got amazed with them and even tried to reproduce the different circuits (boxes) built just for fun (although they did not worked in the Mexican TELMEX company... well the one with the diode to avoid a call to be charged did kind of worked =o) ...

I would sugest The Hackers Crackdown for a really nice read about those times... I remember also reading some interviews made to "Dark Avenger" (a girl made the interview, which made it more interesting)... if you do not know who D.A. was, he was one of the best virus creators back when viruses did not need a user to click "Yes, install this virus on my computer" button...

Ah the old days... to think that some guys made loads of money with movies like Hackers, Sneakers, The Wizard among others commercializing in *some* way what this guy did...

Someone should rise some funds for these guy... I always thought of him as a genius

Price of an interview

[jfoust2]

Back in the middle 80s, when I was writing for computer magazines, I was amazed that a young pup writer like me could get an interview with someone as famous as Mr. Crunch. I remember reading the Esquire blue-box article when I was a teen.

I met him at a trade show. When I asked for some time to sit down for the interview, he insisted we go back to his hotel and conduct the interview in the gym. I balked, eventually only getting a few quotes and a picture. It took me a while before I figured out what he really wanted. Apparently Mr. Crunch thought I was cute.

Re:Price of an interview

[Viol8]

Well if he's gay and people knew it that probably wouldn't have helped him in the 1970s corporate world much either I imagine.

Re:Price of an interview

[CrazyTalk]

I call fake. Mod parent down as troll. PLEASE.

Re:Price of an interview

[YankeeInExile]

Hacker 1: Did you ever work out with Crunch?
Hacker 2: Once ...

There were a lot of "oncers" running around the bay area in that era. The best thing about meeting crunch wasn't meeting crunch -- it was all the hangers on that you met. Steve S. The guys from Berkeley who did the FatMac hack. Edjik. Perry F. John Perry. The list could go on for pages...

Re:Price of an interview

[Anonymous Coward]

if he's gay it wouldn't have helped him

Eh, if he was straight and came on to random much younger females left, right and center it wouldn't have done him any favours either.

Re:Price of an interview

[YankeeInExile]

For what it's worth, I don't think his interest was overtly sexual -- but it was definitely ... eccentric.

Re:Price of an interview

[Viol8]

Sorry , but it could have made a big difference to his image. He might possibly have been seen as more of "one of the boys" and in corporate circles thats a Big Deal.

Re:Price of an interview

[YankeeInExile]

Nobody but John knows what his motivations were, but I don't think he was gay ... of all the dozens of "oncers" I know of none who engaged in what could be called, by any stretch of the imagination, 'sex'. (e.g. there was no nudity, outside of what would be typical for a gym ... there was no genital contact, no climax, not even any notable tumescence).

If I had to guess, I'd say it was more a power play. John could cajole you into doing something you didn't feel comfortable with, as a gatekeeper to some future benefit. Creepy, no doubt. Sexual, I never saw it that way.

Years later, I had a boyfriend who had very a very similar experience to mine out at that condo in the east bay just out by the Caldecott tunnel ... what was the name of the place?...

Re:Price of an interview

[qwijibo]

He's definitely into young boys. When I met him, it was pretty obvious that he was a big pervert.

Even worse, he seemed like a total fake. He could take credit for things he picked up from other people, but didn't seem to be able to do himself the kinds of things he talked about. The thing that struck me as odd is how he didn't get how I was bouncing between machines at Netcom without using a password since they deleted any .rhosts files they found. I would think the mythical Crunch would realize that a script could create the file and .login could erase it a fraction of a second later.

Re:Price of an interview

[redwoodtree]

Actually, not a troll at all. The same thing happened to me.

I was hanging with friends in the Bay Area one night when one of them said "Hey, there's captain crunch". He was just hanging out. So I started talking to him and he offered to show me some things and talk to me more. Being 19 and so excited to meet one of the all-time heroes of phreaking I followed.

Next thing I knew Mr Crunch was on my back (literally) and basically getting himself off. He's an odd, odd, odd odd odd bird. I shook him off and took off as quickly as I could.

Re:Price of an interview

[British]

IIRC he was showing kids how to do "Crunch-ups", and that's where things kind of went downhill.

Re:Price of an interview

[Anonymous Coward]

I met him at a trade show. When I asked for some time to sit down for the interview, he insisted we go back to his hotel and conduct the interview in the gym. I balked, eventually only getting a few quotes and a picture. It took me a while before I figured out what he really wanted. Apparently Mr. Crunch thought I was cute.

That's not really true. What Crunch does is basically a form of chiropractice. He's been paid to lead seminars.

I trust him because he's not greedly, like some chiropractors that I've met. There's never been anything that I wouldn't tell my wife about.

Re:Price of an interview

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing, 'cept I was in my 20s and he insisted on doing the "interview" in his hotel room during a conference.

Apart from getting his stanky-ass stench on me, the worst thing was that I didn't even get a single quote out of that fucker--after I shook him off he wouldn't talk to me any more. BTW, to the person who calls this "chiropractice": I've been to a chiropracter or two, and to the best of my recollection none of their techniques involved an erect cock being shoved into my back.

Re:Price of an interview

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep similar experience here at a tech conference a few years ago. Dodgy.

Re:Price of an interview

[Mr. Hankey]

No kidding? I met the guy once at a friend's place on the east coast, apparently just after a trip to India regarding outsourcing back in the late 90s. We had an interesting conversation with him about how he felt outsourcing was the next big thing, and I guess he was spot on. (Now there's irony, seeing how the article blames outsourcing on his current conditions...)

Anyway, he wanted to try some apparent chiropractor-like thing he'd learned in India. I assume he meant Yoga, as I've since taken Yoga classes with my wife and it seems similar enough. After a minute or so the idea weirded me out, so it didn't go that far. I guess I'm glad it ended there despite his apparent disappointment.

Re:Price of an interview

[redwoodtree]

Yeah, "body work" ... hmph. Oh well, I guess it's kind of cool to have been "groped" by a legend of phreaking.

Re:Price of an interview

[Doctore Neo]

Parkwoods Estates, I believe. Maybe just Parkwoods. It burned down during the big Oakland hills fire in the late 80's.

Re:Price of an interview

[Anonymous Coward]

Admit it, dude, you wish you let him shove his man-meat up your poop-chute!!

interesting

[nomadic]

I think the whole situation mirrors, at a larger scale, a common situation that occurred in the 90s. While computer careers opened up big time, just because you had technical skills you didn't necessarily end up in a well-paying job; through poor social skills, lousy geographical location, or just plain bad luck you might have missed the gravy train. I'm sure there are people here who are on one side or the other of a technical income divide; one guy might be making close to minimum wage at radio shack, while his friends, with similar backgrounds and expertise, become IT pros.

Angry Bacon Man

[Anonymous Coward]

This is like the Ghost of Christmas future for /. nerds. Don't let this happen to you:

The first course arrived. "The bacon's too greasy, I can't accept these," he shouted at the waiter. Mr. Draper sends back his bacon about 70% of the time. He says that since he has no opposing teeth, the bacon needs to be crisp enough to break off in his mouth. He lost most of his teeth from infrequent dental care, which he blames on his lack of health insurance.

After breakfast, Mr. Draper returned to his one-room apartment beside a four-lane expressway. The apartment was in squalor, with open cereal boxes, clothes in trash bags, computers and old newspapers strewn about. Mr. Draper left an angry voice message for a client who hadn't paid for some programming work. He fretted that without the money he would have difficulty covering his electricity bill that month.

Voice Menus

[norminator]

Hopefully he's not the guy that had the idea to make the voice prompt say:

"For security purposes, please say your account number...."

"For security purposes, please say your PIN..."

Whoever came up with that little "security" gem deserves to spend 8 hours a day for the rest of his life navigating phone menus.

Moo

[Chacham]

Woz is amazing.

A genius at electronics, he could not start a business for his life. So, he created an alter-ego, by taking everything that he isn't, and putting it into one new character. He names his new character as any techy would, by its function, and Mr. Jobs came to be. For a first name, he simply chose his own.

Think about it:

1) Can you imagine how two people so opposite can get together so well?
2) Have you ever seen the two of them together?

Apparently, he tried pawning off his DUPED (dual-user personality electronic disorder) to the cap'n, but it a bit of a crunch Drapier refused. Now, Woz is taking his sweet revenge with public humiliation.

Re:Moo

[PingSpike]

Wait, wait, wait...Are you trying to tell me the Woz built Steve Jobs out of used pinball machine parts and apple prototype circuit boards?

Re:Moo

[Hoi Polloi]

You need physical proof. I think someone should break into Woz's home and search for a hidden stash of black turtlenecks.

Re:Moo

[Anonymous Monkey]

By that logic Jamie Hyneman is Adam Savages android...that would explain a lot.

Re:Moo

[businessnerd]

So Steve Jobs is to Steve Wozniak
as Tony Clifton is to Andy Kaufman?

It's possible. I don't think it was until after Andy had died that it became known that the two were one in the same. Maybe the whole Apple v. Microsoft feud is fake too like the whole Jerry Lawler stunt.

Re:Moo

[Stealth Potato]

Well, I don't know if this means anything, but I met him a couple months ago when he was at the University of Washington in Seattle, and if memory serves me correctly he was wearing a gray turtleneck. Perhaps the facade is cracking!

Re:Moo

[4D6963]

Not really, they don't get along together this well.

Re:Moo

[Anonymous Coward]

A genius at electronics, he could not start a business for his life. So, he created an alter-ego, by taking everything that he isn't, and putting it into one new character. He names his new character as any techy would, by its function, and Mr. Jobs came to be. For a first name, he simply chose his own.

I know how this one ends. "With your mouth stuffed full of TTL bus-transceiver chips, you speak only in vowels."

Re:Much more in Secret History of Hacking document

[jcr]

If you don't like it, don't toss out such obvious straight lines.

-jcr

Blank Reg

[wowbagger]

Dirty. Few teeth. Lives "off the grid" "at the edges of society". Phreaker. Raver.

Sounds a lot like Blank Reg.

Man, woz is out of touch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Draper has no computer technical skills whatsoever, phones != computers. He doesn't understand the basics of modern computer technology, nor does he grasp simple concepts like reading documentation. He's spent some time asking moronic questions (which don't always involve openbsd) on the openbsd mailing list.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&w=2&r =1&s=draper&q=b

Re:Man, woz is out of touch.

[Lisper]

I can vouch for this. I interviewed Captain Crunch for a job about six years ag. When I first learned that I was going to interview a silicon valley legend I was really excited, but when I actually talked to him I was shocked at how little he knew. He pretty much wasn't able to answer a single technical question. My take on him is that he's a one-hit-wonder who has been riding on his reputation for thirty years.

Just leave him alone

[plopez]

That's probably what he wants. Just because he doesn't have a bazillion dollars doesn't mean he is a failure or pathetic. Just because he doesn't want to, or have the cut throat personality required to, make it in business does n't mean he is worthless. It sounds like Baker *did* have that cut-throat personality, does that make him better because he made more money.

I mean this is the WSJ, where the only thing that matters is money and once you get enough of it you are a demi-god who can do no wrong. Why do we worship the rich like this? It makes no sense.

I love this part:
"He set about preparing the meal -- obtained free from a Whole Foods worker who leaves outdated products near a dumpster at a prearranged time."

Now there's a guy who is smart, why pay for food when you can get it for free *and* keep perfectly good food from spoiling? Anyone paying retail for food is a sucker.

Nice qoute from Woz:
"But, actually, John is one of the happiest guys I know, no matter what his situation seems."

So just leave him alone.

Re:Just leave him alone

[the_humeister]

There are several facts that counter what you've said, and they come directly from the article:

1) He was ambitious enough to start his own company, twice

2) He's been in legal trouble and required other people's help

3) He's had multiple employment opportunities that went nowhere

So, maybe he does want to be left alone now, but back then (just several years ago) he sure didn't.

Re:Just leave him alone

[SecurityGuy]

Sure, if he's happy, good for him! If I had to choose between money and happiness, I'd take happiness hands down, every time.

That said, this is also a lesson for all of us who could not find happiness subsisting on the charity of others (eating food left by a dumpster, cooked in a van). It's a story of unmet potential. A brilliant man whose accomplishments are so much less than they could have been. I don't care how much money he does or doesn't have. I'm saddened to think what a difference he could have made, and didn't.

Re:Just leave him alone

[GeckoX]

Every big city has the proverbial bag person that everyone knows of, has seen, even talked to whatever. Very often these people are WAY more interesting than they are given credit for. There is a guy in London (Canada) that is a tenured university prof. He has published books. Taking the time to actually talk to him will reveal a couple of things. He's brilliant. He's eccentric. He's not like you and me. He's one of the happiest people you'd ever meet.

Some people are very different, and race has nothing to do with it ;)

Re:Just leave him alone

[dave420]

Just to play the devil's advocate - nothing personal :)

"why pay for food when you can get it for free *and* keep perfectly good food from spoiling?"

Because maybe someone who can't afford food needs it? Otherwise, by your logic, soup kitchens should be full of rich people.

Back to the topic - I say leave the fella alone. Make sure he's cool, got what he wants, and let him be. Respect him - don't make him into a sideshow.

Re:Just leave him alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question: Where does he hang out? Dundas EOA?

Re:Just leave him alone

[GeckoX]

Bearded man. He died recently if I'm not mistaken. (Last winter?)

I should remember his name, but for the life of me I can't pull it up.

Re:Just leave him alone

[GWBasic]

So just leave him alone.

I had breakfast with Crunch last Sunday. The thing he wants most is a job where his employers won't cheat him, and can overlook his past. IMO, this also requires an employer that has the patience for his eccentricities. Even though he's over-the-hill, he still has the mind of a young person.

Re:Just leave him alone

[Anonymous Coward]

What you really meant to say is that you had Cap 'N Crunch cereal for breakfast.

Re:Just leave him alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Because maybe someone who can't afford food needs it? Otherwise, by your logic, soup kitchens should be full of rich people.

The impression I get is that he is taking what the soup kitchens can't serve. Soup kitchens are required to follow the same health and safety rules as restaurants. These rules are quite a bit more strict than "it'll be fine, just microwave it" (it won't...nuke doesn't heat evenly or long enough). Often this means that food that you would have no problem eating at home has to be discarded because it has been out too long or even because the staff cannot determine that it is "safe" (like recycling: "when in doubt, throw it out"). There's also the matter of opened/prepared donations: there are significant liability issues around serving people food which may have been tampered with or even just not handled professionally.

The bottom line is that this food is almost certainly destined for the dumpster. The workaround is "discarding" it in a way that leaves it edible. That is what is happening here.

There's an alternate explanation

[markov_chain]

Jobs is a robot!

Re:Seen in xeroxed mens room posters at the HOPE c

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello new tag! captaincrunchiswatchingyoupoop

Being in the same room with Draper

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if any of you have had the "pleasure" of being in the room with John Draper, but the man's breath is bad enough to gag a maggot. That, coupled with his attraction to young males below the age of consent, and a real lack of social skills make him a less than desirable person to be around. It's no wonder that few people want to have anything to do with him these days. Had he kept his nose clean while he was at Apple, it's likely that his future would have been a lot brighter than it is today. Instead, he was convicted of wire fraud and it's been mostly coasting or downhill for the last 30 years.

Re:Being in the same room with Draper

[Frosty Piss]

Yes, people do not care to address these issues, rather they wish to see Draper through rose colored glasses. He broke into the phone system and wrote an early word processor, but he's hardly Stphen Hawking or even The Woz. He's a nut, and nuts generally end up where Mr. Draper has.

Mr. Draper's unusual behavior, such as shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him, could wear on fellow workers and employers.

Maybe someone should tell him if he cleans himself up and brushes his teeth, it'll be easier to pick up the young raver boys.

Navitron 3000

[camperdave]

Ok, you said "GO TO HELL"

Never, I repeat, never, get angry at your Navitron 3000.

WSJ opened up story for Slashdot?

[xmas2003]

Yet another nifty page-1 article by the WSJ. When this first came out, I thought it would make a great Slashdot submission, but they had it behind the pay/subscriber-only wall, so I didn't submit it.

Interesting that a few days later, they have made it readable by the masses (under the "Today's Free Features" section) and Carl from the WSJ then submitted to Slashdot. My guess is the URL may not work tomorrow, but this is smart marketing on the WSJ's part to give people a taste of their excellent.

Pff. Newbies.

[FlyingSquidStudios]

Draper is Captain Crunch. Cap'n Crunch is the guy on the cereal box.

Re:Pff. Newbies.

[Panaqqa]

Actually, Cap'n Crunch (the cereal) once upon a time included a toy whistle in each box of cereal. Draper was the guy who figured out that it blew a 2600 Hz tone - the exact frequency to get your phone phreaking session started. Now why exactly he decided to blow a toy whistle into a phone microphone I don't know, but that's where he got his name. Are you so very sure it's Captain Crunch now?

Re:Pff. Newbies.

[FlyingSquidStudios]

Yep. He got the whistle that way, but he called himself Captain Crunch, not Cap'n Crunch. I think he's entitled to spell his own handle the way he feels like... or do you not think people intentionally misspell words in their handles?

Re:Pff. Newbies.

[Panaqqa]

Oh, I'm sure they do deliberately misspell things. Just wasn't sure on this point. I've seen his handle in print both ways - so now I know which way is correct, thanks :)

Re:Pff. Newbies.

[hymie3]

Draper is Captain Crunch. Cap'n Crunch is the guy on the cereal box.

Right. There *is* a difference. The difference matters.

Cap'n Crunch is the creepy guy who likes to hang out with young children.
Captain Crunch is the creepy guy who likes to hang out with young boys.

Ouch

[8ball629]

Cap'n Crunch cuts the roof of my mouth!

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

and the rim of your anus if you really aren't careful.

Re:Ouch

[8ball629]

Yes, that is why I make sure to soak mine in plenty of milk beforehand.

yeah, no social skills, how surprising

[delong]

Mr. Wozniak says Mr. Draper's problem is that his skills lie in technology rather in making business deals or starting a company. "He didn't come from a business orientation," says Mr. Wozniak.'"

His problem is that he's socially pathological.

Re:yeah, no social skills, how surprising

[dangitman]

He's socially related to the study of disease? What does that even mean? He knows doctors socially?

money means everything

[teh_chrizzle]

Being intelligent doesn't mean that you'll be rich. Becoming rich takes a certain amount of business acumen or just plain luck.

i object. the purest measure of something is the money that it produces. intelligence, charm, good looks, it can all be measured by money.

look at AOL, the backstreet boys, and donald trump. these are all things that have produced tons of cash and are therefore brilliant!

look at ideas that haven't made any money: mozilla, woodstock, the red cross. these are all terrible ideas. if they were good ideas, they would have made lots of money.

Which Steve?

[ProfessionalCookie]

Forget Jobs- look at Ballmer. He's richer and less respectful. Someone ought to graph that phenomenon. I would but...I'm reading.

not everyone in Silicon Valley hits it big

[peter303]

I'm guessing for most S.V. people their biggest hit has been the value of house they have purchased decades ago.
I was in S.V. during the start of the P.C. era. There were dozens of companies competing for market share including some started in Stanford dorm rooms (Cromemco). Only a handful made it big. Ditto for every business fad up to online video today. How many YouTube runner ups and clones are there out there? How many will make a killing and be around in 20 years? How many will make their founders and employees multi-millionaires?

Their similarities are superficial.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, they are both filthy, smelly, walking dumpsters. Sure they both have unnatural obsessions with young boys. But apart from that they really don't have much in common. Draper can barely use a computer, and this has always been the case. RMS is still able to use one in fact, and at one point he even programmed. RMS doesn't want to get rich, in fact he wants to make sure nobody can ever be rich. Draper is always desperately trying to scam money from people with his moronic crap (crunchbox anyone?) and is just unable to because nobody wants to deal with a filthy scumbag you need a gas mask to be in the same room with.

crossed paths in the 1980s

[peter303]

I recall it was at the Mac users club at Stanford. He seemed to always be working on some project, but usually worked alone on them. Had a bit of grooming issue too, but thats not unusual in Silicon Valley.

No, that's not what he wants.

[Anonymous Coward]

He has been always trying to get rich. He's been involved in several companies, is currently the CTO of yet another "tech" company that is just blindly following a fad without understanding it (en2go), and was trying to cash in by taking openbsd, adding some exploit riddled crap software to it to make it "easier", and calling it a firewall (crunchbox).

His goals have always been very greedy, and the fact that he has failed to make any money is entirely due to his lack of actual concrete technical skills, and his refusal to act like a considerate human being. When tech rags won't do interviews with you even though you are "famous", you have a stupid company to hype, and that's all the rag does you know you have a problem. There's no reason not to at least shower and brush your teeth before interviews, business meetings, etc. You can be flithy the rest of the time if you want, but at least wash up when you are trying to convince other people to deal with you.

Too bad.

[nek]

I used to go to raves with Mr. Draper back in the 90's in the Bay Area. He was off his rocker then and seems about the same now. Really sweet guy, however. He's not crazy, just has the madness of genius.

Re:Worshiping the rich

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spelled "atheist", dumbass.

Just a thought...

[aunticrist]

But could it be that he has Asperger's? http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.htm l It fits on many counts.

Re:Just a thought...

[bluesangria]

Yep, that's what I thought too as soon as I read the descriptions of his behavior. I had a friend that I had to stop hanging out with because he was so obtuse socially and we would end up arguing constantly. It wasn't until years later that I became familiar with Asperger Syndrome and realized that might be what he suffered from. I sent him an e-mail on it. Hope it helped him. I didn't hate him. It was just to much emotional work to be around him.

Re:Just a thought...

[aunticrist]

I'm currently raising a boy with it (the fiance's son), and its one of those things that is so interesting because it has such a wide spectrum. At times it can be frustrating, but then we have to remind ourselves that a certain reaction or the way he might interpret certain things are due to being aspie.

Re:Just a thought...

[epee1221]

An acquaintance of mine from high school has Asperger's. I just watched some video of an interview Draper, and they act very similar, right down to having the same general posture and face expressions. Spooky.

Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

I met Draper once, went 'raving' with him (he was a big club raver then), and talked him into signing my homebrew lineman's handset with 'CaptnCrunch', even though he didn't want to go by that nick anymore. So I got his autograph on something worthwhile. Back then I was patching into roadside payphones to get a dialtone to get on the internet, with a torx screwdriver I picked up free from a computer tradeshow. Figured it was time to quit when I opened one box up and black widow spider had made a little happy home in there. The highpoint of my phreaking career was what I called the 'plaid box', or adding a cordless basestation and answering machine inline with a payphone, so you could drive within range of it and make and make free phone calls from inside your car. This worked with those third party carrier payphones. I was a hacker, not a phreaker, so my only interest really was in getting a data connection on the road.

Watched him give an interview in a park to an Indie film crew, and kind of snickered to myself listening to his exploits as a hacker, because I myself at the time was sucessfully hacking ATM machines. There I was standing watching the interview, 10x a hacker, with the film crew oblivious to me but obviously wrapped up in the by gone legend of the Crunch persona.

Beware his attempts to engage you in excercise or 'straighten out your back'. My guess is his short time in prison he went gay. You've got to be predisposed for that however. If you don't want to go gay in prison you don't, nobody forces you to. I did two years in prison (and subsequently won my appeal) and had two consecutive flaming butch fags for roommates and no way in hell was I going to go gay, I hated those SOBs.

He goes to India a lot, and is not as computer illiterate and someone here claimed. He is destitute most of the time back then it seemed to me, living off of payment for 'speaking engagements' which pretty much have run out. Most of his personal hardware are Apple laptops given to him by Woz. I gave him 3 old Pentium boxes one time. He tried selling a firewall for a stint called the 'Crunchbox' I believe, coded by a guy I believe by the name of John Chen?, who did all the programing and was a hardcore fan of NetBSD for its ability to royally lock down the OS security wise.

Had a website http://webcrunchers.com/ and http://shopip.com/

The thing is, if you are good hacker, I mean, a great hacker, you never get caught. Nobody ever even knows your name. You don't advertise. You never develop any attachment to any particular nick. I never got caught. My lovely tour of prison was a freak victim of circumstance thing, I happened to be apparently in the wrong place at the time when something else was going down.

The fun thing about the internet is, you can talk to these folks online. I've talked to Clifford Stoll, and Woz via emails. Never talked to RMS in real life, but almost ran into him. I don't get around much anymore and try to avoid traveling in hacker circles, avoid Defcon, etc.

Re:Crunchman story

[east coast]

clifford stoll is a buttwipe.

Re:Crunchman story

[PCM2]

Figured it was time to quit when I opened one box up and black widow spider had made a little happy home in there.

Please. If you were in California, and one box was all it took, it's surprising that you made it as long as you did.

Re:Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for posting to one of the most public forums on the internet. Your connection has been traced and the black helicopters will be with you shortly.

Re:Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not really.

He makes the best zero-volume manifolds money can buy and has a neat collection of mechanical calculators.

Re:Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

You are 100% right on! I think that Draper "failed" because he really doesn't know much, but uses others who are in awe of his (created) media persona. There's really nothing there (besides bad teeth). He learned how to use the media very effectively to create an image for himself that he in turn uses to leverage other media stories that improve his image--- in short: it's like paying Visa with MasterCard, only with media presence. I have friends who will hear from him every few months when he runs out of money or just shows up and wants to live with them because he's been evicted. He used the money he had to go to some exotic far off place rather than pay the rent. He needs to bathe more and get his teth fixed and some of my younger friends, kids really, find themselves being conned into "exercising" with him. I warn those that I can, but... Some people just don't believe you. Those who know "Crunch" know that he's a pathetic parasite. I don't know why Mr. Wozniak bothers with him. Steve was successful due to his own efforts and work, maybe he feels guilty or unworthy of that success. You really can't compare Steve Wozniak with Draper at all. He might do better if he wasn't a smelly flake with no teeth or technical knowledge.

Re:Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is his short time in prison he went gay. You've got to be predisposed for that however. If you don't want to go gay in prison you don't, nobody forces you to.

Well if that's not self-contradiction, I don't know what is! (or do I?) :)

But for the record, as long ago as 1972, before he was jailed and beaten up there, Draper was doing exercise in which he got on your back and had you do situps, and vice versa. He said it was so you could do weight exercises without having to buy a weight set. After I went through two sessions of this, I decided a weight set was probably a reasonable investment, both because of my confusion over the genuine intent of the exercise, and because I didn't want to get flattened if my legs gave out.

I read the dead-tree version of this

[MyDixieWrecked]

My dad left me the paper yesterday morning to read this article. It's really quite interesting; especially how he was involved in development of so many technologies, yet he languishes in near-poverty.

I was especially surprised to hear that he has trouble finding work now due to his involvement in phone phreaking in the 70s, and that he helped Apple develop some unreleased phone technologies in the 80s which never saw the light of day because he was involved.

In this day and age, at least, it's surprising to me that people like him have so much trouble finding work, even if he doesn't have a mind for business. With all these has-been blackhat types going legit and giving talks...

Oh well, hopefully there's still some hope for me. ;)

I met him at MacWorld last week

[Anonymous Coward]

Spent considerable time with the old Crunchman. You need to remember, he's 63 years old, but for his age, he's very young... he's recently returned from a Tibetan Yoga retreat, lost a lot of weight, and contrary to what's said, he doesn't stink..

He's very "together" and I'm amazed at his energy and demeaner. Dispite the cruel and unusually harsh treatment from not only his hacker peers, but also from industry, and probably even the authorities. He was very happy and freegoing... His main problem he told me, was due to a law that got passed back in 1995 that inspired companies to do stricter background checks... Although the private databases have him down as a felon, that is NOT true, and one of the main reasons why he isn't in the 9-5 workforce is because back in 1979 so he says, his felony was expunged upon completion of his probation... court records show this, but the private databases have him down as a felon. Crunch says it takes a huge amount of attorney fees, court actions to get these private databases to clear him.. so he's having to work "off the radar" and is often burned by the people he sub contracts for, because he has no legal rights when the work he does is not recognized by the companies he's indirectly working for.

If I were an exec, I would hire him in a heartbeat... True, he's difficult at times to work with - Yes, he's horribly allergic to tobacco, and Yes - his body is damaged for life, but dispite his problems, he can still beat me in any physical activity, and I'm reasonably fit.

He goes to Detox retreat every year around Xmas time, and comes back with more energy then anyone I've seen his age. I have nothing but respect for him. So lighten up on the guy, and if you have work for him, you should contact him.

His most recent work he doesn't talk about, but he's well practiced in migrating businessses off of Microsoft systems and onto more secure UNIX web apps, and has a way to do it with NO downtime for the web sites.. and that is quite an accomplishment.

His views on the WSJ article are mixed, and I was with him when Chris Forbes interviewed him with his friends.

If you DO need to contact him, you should contact Chris Rhodes and he will direct you to his associate.

Re:I met him at MacWorld last week

[Achromatic1978]

Crunch says it takes a huge amount of attorney fees, court actions to get these private databases to clear him.. so he's having to work "off the radar" and is often burned by the people he sub contracts for, because he has no legal rights when the work he does is not recognized by the companies he's indirectly working for.

That makes close to no sense? He may not be recognized by the companies he's indirectly working for, but he sure as hell has an enforceable relationship with the people he was subcontracted to.

The more I read, the more the 'having to work 'off the radar'' thing comes off more as an excuse than a reason.

Re:I met him at MacWorld last week

[Wrataxas]

Well I talked with him about a year ago or so. I shouldn't I talked with him exactly, as rather he talked at me. It was completely impossible to hold a conversation with him as he would talk and talk and talk and not acknowledge any of the usual social cues that the other person might like to get a word in edgewise. He talked right over every attempt to converse. Yet it was just him and me; it's not like he was playing to a crowd or anything. The part of it that I remember was that he was pushing his website with his podcasts. It must be hard to work with someone that you can't communicate with. It must be hard to get past an job interview if you don't let the interviewer ask you some questions.

Re:Much more in Secret History of Hacking document

[mollymoo]

Why are bothering to argue with an AC troll?

Not Exactly

[vtcodger]

***Well, there are people who like to think that they're smart enough that they don't have to pay any mind to "society's rules", that their extreme brilliance is all that they need. Geeks are notorious for that, although often unfairly stereotyped to the extremes. But in generally, things like "I'm going to wear t-shirts and sandals to business meetings, and they can go ahead and fire me if they don't like it" are basically symptoms of the same thing.***

In my experience, it isn't a matter of thinking that they are too smart to pay attention to "society's rules". It is a perception (more or less correct AFAICS) that anyone who thinks 'society's rules' are important is a either a fool, a knave, or both. The basic problem is a surely mistaken belief on the part of the eccentrics that people are really smart enough to see through phonies and demagouges. They believe that this time freedom, justice, and actual worth will triumph over superfical "values". Regretably Iprobably), it rarely works out that way, although it might well be a better, safer, and happier world if it did.

The first law of social dynamics: Never trust a man who owns and uses a blow drier.

He wanted to live in my house

[Philaretus]

This was in '92 or '93, when I was single and rented a large 4 or 5-bedroom house in Silicon Valley with a bunch of friends. After a couple of years living there, I had assumed responsibility for finding new roommates for the house, which I usually did by posting on Usenet. I think I usually mentioned it was a non-smoking house.

One day not too long after I had posted an ad, I got a call from a guy who identified himself as "John Draper" and I recognized the name from a book I had read about Steve Jobs. Just thinking that it was some other guy who shared the name, I jokingly said "Oh, hey, Cap'n Crunch, right?" and he said "Yeah, that's me". We chatted for a while about his phone phreaking days and his then-current interests in programming and so forth. All the while I'm thinking to myself "Wow, Cap'n Crunch" but also "Do I really want this guy living with me?"

We wound up renting the room to someone else, but based on some of the other posters' comments here, I can only imagine what life would have been like with Cap'n Crunch in the house...

Re:He wanted to live in my house

[earmop69]

I had the pleasure of living with crunch in early 98'. The man is a very strange bird, offering people "energry workouts" and what have you. The man was normally high on either acid or 420, sometimes a nasty combination of the two. I remember one time, he woke up Woz on the phone at 5AM because his internet access was down - wow, he just woke up Woz! My best friend's memory of crunch was at a party in south market; crunch had cut him in line to use the rest room facility in which my friend's reply was "Wow, I just got cut in line by capn crunch". I think everyone in the bay area has had some kind of situation where they either saw, met, or was involved with crunch - not always a positive experience and not always a negative one either. The man looks sort of like what any 60+ year old man would if they stopped caring about small things like: health, reputation, money, or where they are going to eat/live the next day. With that said, would I hire him? no. Would I live with him again? hell no. Would I help him? no. Would I say hi to him? maybe... long stretch tho. Long live the captain! A bay area mascot that we all know and love

No, the cat does not "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> frequenting the rave scene and shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him

That's like frequenting the Playboy mansion and shouting at anyone flopping out their tits anywhere near him.

It all comes together now as to why he's broke -- he's an idiot.

His type get no breaks in the 21st. century...

[King_TJ]

Seriously, we had a number of eccentric, brilliant individuals like Draper in the late 1800's and early 1900's, but in that era, the people with drive and vision (but lacking in "people skills") typically became inventors - building prototypes of new products that changed the world. Think Thomas Edison, or Tesla, or the Wright brothers....

Nowdays, we're much more focused on the "intangible" ... The era of the "personal computer" meant many young people who would have traditionally developed an interest in tinkering with physical objects found an outlet for their creativity in the virtual world instead.

Unfortunately, it's looking more and more like going the "virtual" route gives less options for financial success. It's still *possible*, of course, to code the "next great thing" that everyone with a personal computer wants to pay for. But frankly, it's pretty darn unlikely. On today's computers, if you can think of a task, there's probably already a product or three available to get that task done. People like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates got in on things early, and were able to sell the world enough of their goods to establish them as "standards" for computers. Draper wasn't in the "right place at the right time" when that particular window of opportunity was still wide open.

Most of the "more interesting" applications I've seen for PCs in recent years involved a synchronizing of BOTH hardware and software. A physical device has to be built, with accompanying/supporting software, to bring a new "ability" to a computer. (Think everything from the laser mice that evolved from the rolling ball types to inexpensive webcams to LCD flat panel monitors to Apple's new iPhone.) Draper would be in a far better position if he leveraged an ability to develop new hardware than by trying to code software. Just my 2 cents worth.

crispy bacon!

[capsteve]

i also like my bacon crispy so that it breaks off in my mouth with the slightest pressure, but i also have the benefit of a full mouth of teeth, so i have a wider margin of acceptable crispiness... although i pretty sure cap'n crunch would not like the way i cook bacon:

1) take a full pound of oscar mayer's bacon
2) place unwrapped bacon in frying pan
3) peel individual slices from the main slab
4) continue until all slices have been separated
5) avoid straightening the slices (a.k.a. "pretty bacon")
6) continue cooking bacon in its own fat, maintaining a folded or button-like shape(a.k.a. "ugly bacon")
7) cook until all of the bacon is fully crisped
8) drain on paper towel and enjoy!(unless you are cap'n crunch, then send bacon back to the kitchen)

Why he is where he is...

[technosean]

Because he is a deceptive ass. How many folks were invited to a "workout" were deceived when what he really wanted was gay sex? I know in the rave scene I was associated with, there were at least 50 incidences of him deceiving people. He's in California because in most other states, this would get one killed. I have no sympathy for someone whose standard procedure is to deceive.

Social awkardness

[Mark of THE CITY]

I don't believe there is an inherent social block for anyone, including brilliance. Some of us were rewarded mostly for being obedient to authority figures, which limits authentic adult relationships.

Re:Social awkardness

[cowscows]

So you're saying that everyone is born with exactly the same social abilities, but that different experiences cause some of us to lose particular abilities?

So the reason I don't like going to the mall is because I mostly behaved back in grade school?

Re:Social awkardness

[somersault]

So positive reinforcement doesn't work? Or would it work equally well if we were punished for being disobedient? I tended to be the type of person to obey the rules as a kid, I did get the odd smack for disobeying and it sure worked. Did smack my brother too for a while but then 'gave up', but never smacked my sisters, I always though that was because he didn't have any sisters of his own? Anyway what you said is interesting, though I'm not sure entirely what you mean by limiting authentic relationships, or why that would be the case?

Re:Social awkardness

[Mark of THE CITY]

I mean two adults relating as adults, as opposed to one assuming a parent role, and one a child. I am using the words Parent, Adult, and Child as transactional analysts do. Sorry I didn't get this across in the first place, but I was posting in a hurry.

I believe positive reinforcement does work; it just needs to be practiced more by parents.

Re:Social awkardness

[Mark of THE CITY]

That conclusion does not necessarily follow from that premise. Maybe you avoid the mall because of poor location, traffic control, crime, et cetera.

Re:Social awkardness

[somersault]

Yep that's interesting. I do tend to look up to people as father figures or role models, though everyone at work is at least 5-10 years older than me so that's maybe natural? My dad died 6 weeks before I started Uni (he did Comp Science and that's basically what got me interested in computing from a really young age), I guess it's just caused weird issues that go beyond my typical geeky social issues!

I'll wear a tie to work when ...

[jeepmeister]

... my programming, network engineering and security skills have fallen into such decline that I'm forced to take a management position. Until then, I'll wear collarless shirts and no socks thank you very much.

Re:Price of an interview - I too spent time!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a oncer:

I entertained him for 5 hours after seeking Crunch out through people that knew him (every silicon valley area programmer knew someone that knew him), I manipulated him and I succesfully fed him lamb at a restaurant even thought he was a strict microbe-type vegan at the time (blue green algea!)

He pushed for the "work out with me some morning some time" thing but i was not into that and would never want to.

I tested his skills at reading a lot of assembler (MC68K) and he scanned it at a very high speed, oddly enough, and spotted a line that wizzed by his eyes at blistering speed and he said THATS NOT AN OPCODE and he was right, it was an assembler construct macro.

This was in 1994 before his mini-revival happened and Mondo and Wired "found" him again.

Anyway, I chatted about internet stuff, (he was bigtime into internet tech in 1994) and generally exchanged amusing trivia.

Unknown to him was that I was one of america's leading ex-phone phreaks with several acheivements under my belt. But I was gainfully employed as a well respected author of top 10 selling utilities at the time, and phreaking and hacking were as far behind me as they were for him.

The guy acts odd, and is and was desperately impoverished, and unemplyable to some, but hi was still a very very very talented and intelligent genius in 1994 ... and I am convinced in 2007 he probably still could have a carreer at SOMETHING, but truth be told, he is technically an underachiever of sorts. He liked to hang around youths at Rave parties and inhabit the underground arts culture. Basically clueless non-techie hippie crowds.

I think he's a great guy and I too felt pity for him, but mentoring him into the fast track of coding at the time would have taken too much precious time away from my life.

Society screwed him over. Its our loss.

"not coming from a business orientation"

[sentientbrendan]

isn't really the problem. There are a lot of guys like Draper... really a fairly large community of them.

Of the people that I've met who are like John Draper, the real problem is that they have no sense of the practical necessities of life, i.e. they don't know how to take care of themselves, they aren't willing to do boring work to make money to pay bills, they don't know how to judge people, or stay out of trouble.

Well developed skills and high intelligence are a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for success in life. Basic things, like personal hygiene, self control, and the ability to exude professionalism at least some of the time, are necessary for success in any field whatsoever.

Eccentricities are in some ways the spice of life, but people need to be able to control their social twitches, personal quirks, and neurosis in order to deal with others. Some people, usually people who have not really had much experience in the industry, imagine that if they are just good enough in the technical arena, everyone will be willing to put up with obnoxious personal habits. However, this is observably false within the industry, and this myth should be dispelled immediately.

Point and laugh, it's the American way

[Anonymous Coward]

loser

Re:Buttraperdraper

[Anonymous Coward]

In Silicon Valley, Cap'N Crunch has YOU!

Yeah sure

[RealGrouchy]

He hasn't gotten rich and has fallen to the margins? Yeah, that's what he wants you to think...

Now that's talent!

- RG>

Re:Much more in Secret History of Hacking document

[dangitman]

The Secret History of Hacking [google.com] (50 minutes)

Whoa! That's a really time-consuming Google search.

In passing...

[dtdns]

Not that anyone will care, but when my car ('89 GMC Jimmy) was once owned by a friend of mine, he and another friend went to visit the Cap'n and took him out to lunch. The point: he rode in my back seat once. Too bad I wasn't there with them. Ah well. Move along, nothing interesting here...

Who cares?

[yamamushi]

Who cares how much money Draper is making, he's still having fun along the way, doing what he always did best, and keeping the spirit alive in his own way. I met draper once, and it was like meeting a god, not because of his wallet but because of the impact he made. Plus rumor has it, he has a prescription for medical marijuana, so that earns him a couple thousand points in my book. :)

He's a genius...

[Anonymous Coward]

...who is very, very hard to hang out with. You cannot take his genius away from him: he's one of the smartest guys about electronics and computers this side of The Woz. But he's also very, very odd. He tried to pick up on my HUSBAND. I shit you not. I was at a LUG meeting and he was making weird eyes at my husband. He later called us a few times and offered my husband some "energy massages" Eventually we just had to tell him "no, we're not interested."

His lack of health care is not entirely his fault. In the United States, health care is mostly tied to your employment. The poorest of the poor can get health care through MedicAid (MediCal in CA) but you have to jump through hoops of fire 10 feet up to get it. And even if you HAVE insurance, dental is usually not a part of it. God help you if you need vision care.

The readers who are reading this from Europe and Canada are probably snickering by now. Yeah, you have to wait for certain non-urgent things, but if you get catastrophically ill (like my husband, who now is fighting Multiple Myeloma, a bone-marrow cancer) you get care and you get it without jumping through those burning hoops 10 feet up when you are least able to do so.

Someone needs to just take over Draper's life...become his conservator or something. He'll hate it, he'll curse you from here to hell and back. But he deserves better than this. Even if he does have this weird thing about gay energy massages.

So apologetic towards him

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you apologists ever met the man?

He used to call my late night radio show in 1980-81, and we talked for hours about all manner of cool stuff before he told me who he was.

Then it became a BIG ego trip on his part, but I overlooked it because he was so damned interesting. One strange thing though, was that he repeatedly kept asking about my appearance/physical build, and that seemed very odd to me as it appeared to be an obsession for him.

After months of badgering me, I finally agreed to meet him at his place.

Meeting him in person was not a good scene, and he's fuckin' looped, and creepy too.

I started asking other SF bay area radio DJ's about him, and he apparently called many of them attempting to lure them to his place as well.

A few years later during the RAVE scene, I started hearing "the" stories about his predation on young boys by using "E", and I wasn't surprised at all.

What a creep, it's no wonder WHY he didn't "make it" in the "real world".

BTW, my CAPTCHA to post this was "cruddy", and he sure is.

Re:So apologetic towards him

[Anonymous Coward]

"A few years later during the RAVE scene, I started hearing 'the' stories about his predation on young boys by using 'E', and I wasn't surprised at all." I have heard "stories" about John and the rave scene, also. Interestingly, when I tried to check out some of these stories, the sources generally said it was something they "had heard about" and I could never confirm anything. Rumor-mongering is an unhealthy but predictable human process. Draper is either gay or somewhat bisexual. He's also rather immature, socially inept, and I would guess somewhat lonely. Yes, he can be perceived as "creepy" by those who are straight, and to whom he may have come onto under the influence at raves. But the question should be, has he violated the law by not just coming on to a younger guy, but someone under the legal age of consent, and acted on his preferences? This is what would concern me most. Or if he provided mind-altering drugs to someone with the intention of "softening" them up for predatory purposes. If anyone out there reading this has a specific example or case of this being true, I'd like to hear about it. That would cross the line, legally, morally, and ethically, IMHO. Look, John is a fairly complex, troubled guy. Like most people, he's had his ups and downs, successes and failures. He's like some big kid, in many ways. He took the path not usually taken, and has and is paying for it as time goes on. I thought the WSJ profile was unduly negative, and that Draper came off looking rather pathetic. His story is a sad one in ways. But there are things creatively and technically he's done that were, for the time, very innovative. He's not an evil or malicious person from my experience, but he does things that reflect poor judgement at times. I wish he was able to recognize more clearly his negative qualities, and get some therapy and/or anti-depressant/anxiety medications. He could be so much more, with his innate talents, than he is today. But, of course, that's up to him to deal with. No one can tell him what he ought to do, and that's not unusual. He has some kind of defensive blind spot about his habits and peccadillos of behavior, and until and unless he faces himself and these issues squarely, which is dubious, he will be what he is.

what ever you do, don't not be normal

[doom]

dangitman wrote:

What's wrong with going to raves when you're 50? I know plenty of people older than that who go. It's good exercise, keeps you young. Or are "old people" (50 is not very old) just supposed to lead quiet boring lives?

Yeah, I know. The entire thread is kind of disgusting (you've got to be normal to succeed! If you're not normal, well gee, what do you expect?)

For what it's worth, I've never noticed John Draper smelling like two week old fish, either. Nor have I noticed him having Asperger's disease, though he's a mildly odd guy, so who the hell knows.

(You know, there's no rule that says all geeks must become billionaires... Draper is not the only uber-geek who didn't manage to cash-in. There is, for example, the one guy from the homebrew computing club who got the idea to start a computer repair business that just staggered along for years while all his old freinds struck it rich.)

NOT A TROLL AT ALL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a troll at all, do your "homework" moderators.

Better yet, give 'ol John "buttraperdraper" a call, I'm sure he'd love to visit with you, and do a few crunch up's with you.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...

For the record

[Anonymous Coward]

He yelled at spammers for companies, and had an interest in technology that was genuine. He also was creepy as hell and would hit on any young piece of man he could convince to do energy work with him. He crashed at my friends place in new york city for 3 days before they kicked him out.

Skillz

[Heembo]

It's not that Capt'nC has a problem with business skills, the problem is people skills. I have not an MBA or any understanding of the laws of commerce, but I can cut deals with other organizations through being nice, playing fair, using common sense, being personable and other things you don't learn in a MBA class. If Capt'nC screams at people who smoke near him (instead of asking nicely) then that boy has much larger problems that lack of biz skills.

Why are you posting almost the same story twice?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lookie here, almost the same thing. I call shenanigans.
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=217136&cid= 17628698

Re:I met him at MacWorld last week***BUZZ**

[ScottFree2600]

So... You haven't known him long and don't have any deep personal knowledge of him. Consider that the negative stuff in this thread (from many, many people) has some basis in reality. My own personal experiences with him date back 30 years and are consistent with those listed in the thread. If you have no persaonal knowledge of him or his behavior, don't endorse him like the press always seem to do.

John is a superstar

[christinemarie]

It's interesting reading all the buzz about Crunch. I work with him constantly and one theme I am surprised to not read about is what a great guy John is. He is really one of the sweetest, most anxious-to-please, fun-loving people, and he truly is a genius. He is highly responsible with money, does have his apartment cleaned, USUALLY smells good (no one smells good all the time), and just so you all know, his future looks very, very bright. John Draper, as eccentric as he is, is a superstar. The karma police are about to let the world see that once again.

Re:John is a superstar

[Doctore Neo]

Christine Marie--aren't you the person mentioned in the article as working with Tolga Katas at en2go.com, where John Draper is noted as the CTO? What did you think of the WSJ article? And if you do occassionally clean Draper's apartment, what do you think of the reporter's comments about his apartment? As far as Cap'n Crunch being a superstar, isn't that somewhat exaggerated? People like Woz, Jobs, and Gates, for example, are "superstars" in their industry, but can that really be said about Draper? Finally, what do you mean about the "Karma police" and the implication that Mr. Draper will rise again? How do you see that happening?

Re:John is a superstar

[christinemarie]

Yes, I was the one mentioned. About his apartment being untidy that day? Big deal. I only get to Burbank monthly, it's not like I'm his housekeeper, but I try to help when I can. Quite honestly, I know a LOT of programmers, musicians, etc. who ALSO have their heads in places beyond housework--and thank goodness! I don't find that a flaw. Just a fact. At first I was bothered by the dismal ending of the article, but since I'm personally receiving a lot of calls in response to it, I know that exciting things will soon be resulting for John. It's an amazing time. Based on the results and response, I now think the article was perfectly written. Yes, the story it told was heart-wrenching, but the story is bigger than John Draper. It's the story of every programmer and inventor who has ever experienced the euphoria of invention, like child birth, just to have that baby robbed in its cradle. It's not just code to the guy who wrote it. It's a baby. A life dream. A retirement plan. The lessons showcased in the article are profound and worth 1,000 discussion threads, but what a waste of energy to write about John Draper's smell. He has never smelled bad to me, by the way. I accompanied him to Defcon for the black and white ball as his date, so I should know! :-) And about him being a superstar? Absolutely he's a superstar! Maybe not financially like Woz and Jobs, but I think he might have more urban legends about him. He has a near cult-following like a rock star to certain crowds. He has people who love him and people who hate him, but he is so unique, people never cease to talk about him, write about him, and ask for pics and autographs. John Draper is a superstar in a way like no one else on earth. Tolga sees that and knows that. The karma police...you have to know Tolga Katas to know the power of this statement, but write this down: John Draper's star is definitely going to shine again!

Re:John is a superstar

[Doctore Neo]

"At first I was bothered by the dismal ending of the article, but since I'm personally receiving a lot of calls in response to it, I know that exciting things will soon be resulting for John." Hmmm. How do you equate your receiving a lot of calls in response to the article as knowing exciting things will soon result for John Draper? And wouldn't the calls you get, due to your association with the article and Mr. Draper, be biased toward the positive? I mean, how many people you know who call you up based on a mention of you or Draper in the article are going to say "why that was just terrible?" I guess I'm suggesting your sample "rate and source" of congratula-tory calls or emails would tend to be rather narrow, and unlikely to reflect the average reader's response. What do you think the typical WSJ reader is going to think, not knowing him, about Mr. Draper? I would suggest that he comes off rather poorly in the article. "Based on the results and response, I now think the article was perfectly written." Have you read the entire thread here? Just because there has been a "large response", doesn't mean it's a positive one. And I'm not sure what you mean by "results"--could you clarify that? I submit that at the very least, the article was not "perfectly written", that your perspective is probably at variance with the typical reader of the article, and that Captain Crunch, while famous (many would say infamous), may have been a "star" at one time, but that his reputation as a phreak/hacker and programmer is based on accomplishments from the past. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but he can be real bozo at times. And I know him quite well, over a very long period of time. To me, the WSJ could and should have covered some of his more positive aspects, like you mentioned (although I would have to debate you about proper money management, adequate hygiene, and keeping an apartment organized, let alone clean), but would also say that most of the troubles he has experienced he is primarily "responsible" for, even though he has been ripped off several times by unscrupulous individuals, who preyed on his social naivete and lack of interest in business basics. I just wish he would listen more and learn to apply the good advice others have given him for the last three decades and more about how to deal more appropriately with others and especially in business. It's actually kind of a tragic story, but IMHO, the WSJ profile was not as fair or balanced as it should have been. But it is up to Mr. Draper, in the years he has remaining, to do what is right by himself and with others. He still has that chance, but only if he can see that, gets wise to himself, and acts accordingly. I frankly think he could benefit from therapy. You are right about his being a true "original", if not unique. He's quite the complex character. I truly hope you are right, and that his "star" does shine again, but, being a pragmatist and somewhat pessimistic, based on his history over the last 20 years, I would have to conclude by saying that remains to be seen. I wish him and you all the luck it may require.

Re:John is a superstar

[christinemarie]

You're right on every point, I have to admit. I, alone, said so many things that were positive and true that of course, weren't in there and that made me sad. BUT, I'm judging results, not from congratulory calls, but from newly-opened doors and opportunities for Crunch that came as a result of the article INCLUDING, Neo, a positive response from a half dozen groups in the financial community. Hopefully they pan out. I'll know more later today on a big one. Anyway, "perfectly-written" doesn't mean that I would have written it that way. Few of his positive personal traits were covered, like how he forgives so easily, how child-like and pure his heart is, how responsible he is, what a great networker he is -- you know them. But A) It wasn't Mr. Rhoads' spin (which highlighted the plight of exploited geniuses), B) I have concrete reasons (not just fluffy calls) to feel confident that good things will come from this for John BECAUSE of the way the article was written, C) I am hopeful that the Wall Street Journal will do a dazzling follow-up when John's on top of the world again. Whoever you are, Doctor Neo, you are obviously sharp and I like the way you think, scrutinize, articulate. But as an optimist, a work horse and someone in Crunch's world currently, I look forward to helping John succeed again, giving you, Mr. Pragmatist-Pessimist, a reason to say, "Wow. A happy ending for John. That's so cool."

Re:John is a superstar

[Anonymous Coward]

As a good friend of John, I think this apartment business is a bit overstated and made into a big thing. Over the past few months, John has suffered some major problems health wize, and due to these problems has not been able to keep his place tidy every second of the day. Since he returned from the Detox retreat, his health has improved significantly and I'm sure he's on top of these things in a very big way.

Obviously, the person who reported this might have visited john during this period of time, and might have found things untidy. I'm even surprised he even lets people in his space, but obviously Chris Rhodes visited him and mentioned it. But as Christine says, SO WHAT!!! But that's cool, because all the "dissing" he's gotten from slashdot is doing nothing but helping him.... he reads slashdot, and finds all the gossip amusing. I don't think he'll make a presence in here, he's way too busy right now.

He's now very focused and engrossed into writing his book, spending hours contacting his old friends and family members digging up a lot of his past for his book, and I cannot wait to read it, I'm sure it's going to be a "page turner".

Obviously, such a creative person as himself, sometimes has to go off and hide and get really focused on the job at hand, and this is what he's currently engaged in. He has a "tight" support ring around him, and that is good, and just contributes to his work.

I know he's engaged in a lot of very noble projects like SpamCrunchers (a spam management system), and a host of other projects involving entertainment, music, media, and of course his crunchTV episodes he's working on.

Perhaps some Phat Cat on high might recognise him for what he's worth and make some of his great ideas real... he explained to me a system that can keep jobs in this country, trivialize outsourcing, and actively engaging in keeping jobs in this country.

He told me he reduced his hourly rates to be competitive on the global market, and still have enough money to live comfortably, and encourages others to do the same.

A good friend of the crunchman...

Re:John is a superstar

[unitedfuries]

I have managed to read 1/2 way through the thread on Cap`n Crunch. I might be the only person who has worked with John Draper and made sure he was (somewhat) financially successful. I managed the business and assisted in helping John manage his money. It worked, and then it did not work. He was given the benefit of the doubt. He did well in those years, not great. The business was Cap'n Software (1977-1884) and despite the fact of John's programming abilities "EasyWriter" was finished and we managed to have an update on both the Apple II as well as the IBM PC 1982 word processing version. Yes, John is hard to work with but he a spirit continuing on a quest to push the envelope over the edge despite his fallacies. I admire his dealing with "fear". You will always make mistakes, whine and bitch as well as moan and groan. His label was an "idiot savant" of which falls under Asperger Syndrome. I understand why his reputation is soiled by his "workouts". Remember, everyone's parents are responsible for their children. John is well meaning and if he can get his story straight, he's truthful. This takes reading between the lines. It is true, "real hackers" are not caught with the hands in the "bluebox". My world was another where I was not caught. So, to the best of my abilities, I have worked with John to raise his social consciences, and John has improved by 5-10% according to my associates. You are never too old to learn. To this day I am still his friend and has always encouraged him to be aware of the "boogiemen" taking advantage and or haunting him.... Yes, it is up to him to listen, but John does it his way...

Re:John is a superstar

[christinemarie]

Hey I loved talking to you last night. You earned my respect and I can't wait to talk to you more. Things went great today, by the way, on the V.C. end. Two thumbs up. How did things go on the conference call with you guys?